Discussion on:

Can Microsoft be right about tablets and Apple, Amazon, and Google be wrong?

How does one respond to such a nonsensical (and grammatically questionable) remark?

All your tablet are belong to us!

Grammatically correct if you are British.

and you will see he is Canadian (Quebec). They use the British form of English so that sentence is correct (except he left the period off at the end). I do however, disagree with his conclusion. MS is not always wrong.

Actually I'm good old boy from Colorado who still lives in Colorado.
As for grimmer I flunked I talk to computers and they don't care.

unless you changed your name and moved? Otherwise, I am confused as to what you are talking about.

I know, I yell at my PC sometimes and it doesn't care either.

We use the same form as you, companies are a singular entity and the correct form would therefore be 'Microsoft is always wrong', not 'Microsoft are always wrong' (I too disagree with the sentiment of the comment by the way). However, we aren't too precious (or careful) about it in much of our writing over here and you will find many items of company information that refer to a company using 'are' or 'we', it's considered in some circles (corporate comms usually) to be a friendlier, more inclusive way of refering to an organisation.

The title also seems incorrect to me. 'Suck' is not a term widely used over here (at least not by anyone over the age of 13) so maybe I'm not familiar with the colloquial use of the term, but given that Windows 8 is singular, shouldn't the phrase be 'Windows 8 sucks', rather than 'Windows 8 suck'? I should add that having used Windows 8 a little over the past few months I happen to disagree with this sentiment too; I like it and I think that on a touch device it'll work well.

When Microsoft introduced the 'Surface', it really excited me. I can't wait to buy one, as long as the price point is workable! If it is the same price as a Laptop, then I'm all in. If it is better than half again the price of a laptop, then I'll have to wait, the family budget just won't support that kind of outlay!

I hear this best of both worlds I wonder why they did not support the Dell Duo - I have 3 of them one for me as my portable and 2 for the kids. Sure I get it - its not fast IT speed, but thats why I have a monster desktop that I can remote with Windows Mesh or RDP. but I can take notes on the Duo ( that were made on the Monster) and do it via keyboard or tablet mode. Sure its a little heavy but 320GB fast 7200 drive and means I have space if needed. Surface will win out in certain areas if people stop knocking it and try it - there is a place for both type IPAD and Surface in the world. I'm a Duo man now Surface very soon I hope.

If upscale tablets were the answer, then XP Tablet Edition would have been more popular. Tablets were and are a niche market and Apple has done a good job of getting into that niche.

People keep telling me Window 8 is great on tablets and bad on desktops - no it's okay on tablets and bad on desktops. As a test, I dare you to try changing the power settings in Windows 8. You end up having to go into control panel in desktop mode and attempting to mash your way through various complex settings. Hopeless.

Also another myth - "Windows 8 is the biggest change in Windows since Windows 95."

Not even close, in fact it is the smallest change in Windows since Windows 95. With the exception of the UI, the underlying OS is pretty much the same, and when SP2 comes out for Windows 7 it will probably be almost exactly the same, except for the UI. So on non-touchscreen computers, there's no point to Windows 8 unless there is some killer Metro app coming down the pipe I'm not aware of (which definitely isn't going to be Office 2013).

I just don't see what the big deal is with tablets, they have their uses but they're usually at the bottom of any agenda of any IT meeting I've ever been to.

"if Microsoft changed course and went with a Metro-only, ARM-based Windows 8 tablet that cost less than $500 and could seamlessly connect to Active Directory and other backend Windows systems, then I believe a lot of enterprise businesses and individual business professionals would be interested"

They don't care about the business market, Windows 8 RT is all about the consumer market. Much like Windows 7 Phone was, forget about all the companies using Windows Mobile 6.x, let's see how many handsets we can sell to Joe Public. It's all about maximizing sales and profit.

Remind me again, which companies sell the most smartphones? And what OS does UPS and Fedex use on their PDAs?

Those XP, Vista, and Win7 tablets were as big and heavy as a laptop, but cost twice as much - the entry level from Dell or HP were $2K. And, the operating systems were extremely clunky with touch, including that the screen couldn't differentiate between a rested palm and a deliberate user action. It's obvious why they were unpopular - price alone kept people from trying them and finding out about the bad usability. Win8 tablets will be entirely different devices that overcome the limitations of the old style Windows tablets.

I have one of the lower end tablet/laptops that can be used in either full tablet with the keyboard folded out of the way or in full laptop mode, a HP TX2000, and that cost me $1300-1400 four years or more ago. It has the AMD X8xomething X2 mobile chip that you can fry an egg on when busy but the cheapest Intel version was almost double the price. But I still like it for what it is and used to use it as my main out and about machine when I wanted more than.just my PMP while still having PMP capabilities. Though you needed the second battery that came with it to have it last a reasonable time.

Since then, I have largely replaced it with the Xoom when out and about, mainly due to the HP weighing three times as much, and only use the HP now when I know the Xoom will be too limiting, as even with a BT keyboard the Xoom has severe limitations in usability for many of my needs. As does every other pure tablet that I have tried though, including the Apple and Blackberry variants. In fact, the closest to what I still want, capability wise, is my HP, while closer to the Xoom or similar tablets in weight and size would be ideal. So, depending on price, the Surface Pro looks just like what I want, i.e. a basic tablet when that is all I need for just a browser/player/reader type use but can be 'switched' to high power mode whenever needed.

I owned an Acer convertible tablet for three and a half years. The operating system was simply an touch-enhanced version of the desktop OS - there was little readjustment to do as I moved between the two. And the stylus was the only thing the touchscreen responded to so there was no "rested palm" issue. That only became an issue in the era of human touch. I agree with you on the price issue though - some manufacturers still haven't got the message.

is that no one wrote an applications to take advantage of its then-unique capabilities. MS OneNote was about the only one. It was and is a cool program, but it wasn't a killer app that could 'make' a platform all by itself.

At the Metro interface start typing "power..." - touch (or click) "Settings" - touch (or click) "Power Settings" - done. How hard was that? I stopped reading your diatribe after that.

From the Desktop?

I have an ASUS Transformer TF101 with the ASUS keyboard doc. It is a laptop when using Citrix or other remote applications, and it's a brilliant Android ICS. Total price for tablet and keyboard dock with it's own battery, full SD, USB, and trackpad, $440! Microsoft can't beat that. I see nothing Microsoft is doing that does anything better.

You poor guy, you have been trying to share and email from an iPad. Get a proper Android tablet running at least Ice Cream Sandwich. Sharing is never more than two taps away to anything... G+, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, Email, Flickr, etc. You'll be much happier.

I bought an Android tablet. Wanted a little more than an e-reader offered. Had a crap battery, so I took a screenshot to send to the seller. Thought I could just copy file to USB drive and stick it in (Windows) laptop to compose email. Opened the drive, found three new folders, NONE of which contained the file i told tablet to copy. Had to email it to myself (just like that joke about what the redhead between the two blondes, with the Cloud playing the role of the redhead). Surfing the web? Everything has to go through the Google site to be reformatted to 7" screen. Serious problem when you're trying to access a password-protected hotspot (need password to get online, need to be already online with Google to load password-submitting page). Even flunked as e-reader: reading as html in browser is nightmare, e-reader will only read .pdf from internal memory or SD card (I keep most books as mime or .pdf, and keep "portable" data on USB drives). So the only thing I've used it for in the last six months is playing "Angry Birds"

A tablet with a full Windows 8 version is exactly what I really need, everything else falls short. I am the marketshare that Windows will be selling to and will be happy to pay a higher price for the additional functionality. A number of my clients wait with crossed fingers, hoping that this will finally be the tablet that can do everything they need. We have been let down so many times before. I just hope there are enough of us to make it a successful and longlasting venture, that is the gamble for Microsoft.

Your choice not to use a spell checker was a poor one. But we get the drift.

The keyboard built in the cover is a start in the direction to making a truly touch-typist usable keyboard. Of course, if it is much smaller than a desktop or, say, a 15" screen laptop, it will relegated to "useless" status. Only touch-typists can judge that. "Hunt-n-*******" don't count. So the "Surface" could be classed as a "potential winner."
Regrettably, the same can't be said about Windows-8's Metro UI. Microsoft's obsession with touch screens along with the seemingly abandonment of traditional laptop and desktop-oriented UIs puts the Windows-8 OS at risk. Companies are just not going to put up with two OSs--one for tablets (W-8) and one for laptops and desktops (W-7).

They already do put up with it for the most part. Android/iOS for tablet and Windows 7 (or XP still in many places) for desktop.

Windows 8 is fine as a desktop OS....those that complain don't spend much time using it or haven't really used it. I use Windows 8 everyday on my work laptop and while I do spend 90% of my time in Desktop mode it's nice to have Metro for those apps written to benefit from the UI. This is especially nice on a docked laptop or desktop with multiple monitors where one can run Metro and the other the Desktop UI. I've found this a very positive experience. By the time the final release of Windows 8 comes out I suspect a few more additional tweaks that will make it a great OS for BOTH tablet and traditional desktop users.

I can't wait for Microsoft Surface tablet/laptop to come out. I've noticed people go through several iterations of iPads and other tablets only to end up not really using them that much...they end up collecting dust. People value them because they see the POTENTIAL in the technology - instant on (relatively speaking), large buttons - easy to read - simple interface. Sure they work great for browsing/reading/watching video, but if you have to do anything that requires more input than what your pointer finger can do, it's painfully inefficient. Last night I spent far too long on my tablet trying to book a hotel when I could have popped open my laptop and been done in 10 minutes.

Now enter MS Surface. Flip it around/drop down the keyboard and you've got both a laptop and a tablet. All the power of a PC but in a tablet. That rocks! And tWindows XP Tablet Edition sucked because of the UI...Windows XP didn't map to touch very well. But Windows 8 UI is designed for touch. I am using the preview version on a laptop and find myself wanting to swipe the screen occasionally to scroll/etc. If I can easily and seamlessly switch back and forth between touch and standard keyboard/mouse input, I am 100% on board.

I'm not sure the argument that the price is going to be a deciding factor is fair since MS Surface really is much more than just a tablet too. If it was just another tablet, then I would agree that the price point would need to stay @$600 or less. But since the higher-end version is really a hybrid convertible, then I believe it warrants a higher price tag. If it ultimately specs out to be a decent laptop and the quality proves to be excellent (discreet GPU, i5 or i7 proc, 16GB RAM, SSD, etc), I'd probably shell out $1500-2000 for the experience.

Microsoft has a big mountain to climb to get their UI message across though. I think once people "get it" and get to try it out, they will be on board too.

And its a valid question. The answer itself isnt so difficult, its a simple two parter, firstly, if the surface costs a whole lot more to buy then an iPad 3, then it could easily have a detrimental effect on the Microsoft tablet solution. On the other hand, if the Surface is relatively close to the same price as an iPad 3, there should be no question that Microsoft has very appropriately decided to fill a genuine void.

There is always the problem that if people are just buying tablets for "fun" then at the iPads price point, it may be just about as far as people are prepared to go for fun. Having the extra ability of the Surface would come as a very welcome and relatively free benefit of going with the Surface if it cost about the same as an iPad.

I believe your absolutely right when you say "usage of the iPad has confirmed that a high percentage of people are mostly reading and viewing things and only occasionally have to do much typing, input, or creation." Because quite frankly, it isnt very good at much else.

On the other hand one has to consider the dynamics of this observation; "For these users, the fact that the iPad is so much more convenient and easier to use for viewing things than a laptop far outweighs the fact that its a lot less convenient for data input, content creation". One has to remember here, an iPad is something that will frequently be left lying around the house. I have seen it. For the times I have actually seen an iPad the most its been sitting on a coffee table or end table like an old magazine, turned on and simply ready to be scooped up, just like an old magazine and quickly flipped through to check something that just came to ones mind. The laptop in similar circumstances isnt even on and is often closed up either in another room or in some bag or briefcase. Thats what makes the tablet more handy. Not a whole lot else.

I do think that people would actually like to get more use out of a tablet. Right now its a toy for the well off, or a gadget for the geeky must haves out there, or its a lightweight work tool for a very limited number of jobs. A full fledged tablet that could do some real regular computing would at least have the potential to begin to change that. All this mindless chatter about the post PC world is never going to see the light of day until or unless there is a tablet like the Surface in existence. While thats not something the Apple fanatics want to hear, it dosnt matter, its simply a fact. There is no post PC world in a world where people still use PCs for the vast majority of their computing. And that is currently the case despite all the tablets sold to date.

But price is the real issue. A great deal of the world still dosnt understand some of the plainest issues about computing. Trust me, I know iPad owners and they were all bought (the owners I know) thinking that the iPad was just like a laptop, only a tablet. They were a little unhappy to find out it was not. Now, if MS comes out with the Surface, MS has absolutely got to make it plain plain plain as day that the Surface is what most people were hoping what they were getting when they purchased an iPad. Otherwise, if the Surface does cost any more at all, people will just go on thinking "why spend the extra on this Surface thing when I can get an iPad for less, do I really need anything extra the Surface can do?". Many will say no, unless its made quite plain that this finally IS the device that can replace a laptop. The public has got to be made 100% aware. Too much tends to go right over their head. Microsoft really has to impress on the public what the Surface truly is and what it can do.

Believe it.

Good points.

Everybody has a television.
Very few people have motion-picture quality cameras.
Two different uses, two different markets that just happen to coincide at the product level.

Back in the day, people bought these reel-to-reel tape recorder/players that were basically similar to the ones used in recording studios. The listener market and the recorder market coincided in one product for a while, but eventually diverged, with cheaper, lower-quality cassette tapes taking over the consumer market. The hi-fi people dissed the quality, but the average consumer was much happier with the portability and durability of the hard-shell cassette tape. Putting a reel-to-reel or a record player in a car was a losing idea.

The average business user does things on the web, writes, enters data, reads reports. They don't crunch number or write code, and can get by with a tablet-like computer instead of a laptop. Those handful who do, will have big monitors, dockable laptops or desktops, and special software.

The average consumer watches video. They don't edit video, at least not with the precision demanded by After Effects or FCP or Vegas. They'll be able to do this on a tablet.

It's entirely possible that the new trend won't be putting desktop apps on the tablets, but creating desktop apps that work just like the tablet apps.

...will include whatever pop song is hot at the time and some ambiguous pictures of the tablet in a 30 second spot.

They need to show people using it for work and play and that the keyboard comes with the tablet and that it's not an add-on.

MS will need all three and in something a bit more substantial than a 30 second spot....

........the ghost of Steve Jobs.

Seriously, Apple's timing and marketing for the iPod, iPhone and iPad are what made these killer devices. Look at how everyone thinks of them despite their many and well publicised limitations.

MS are too late to hook the timing angle so the marketing of this thing needs to be scorchio.


EDIT: I've just imagined MS using the funds set aside for ads to instead build a giant glass house a-la Thirteen Ghosts to trap and use the ghost of Jobs instead. That'll amuse me all afternoon

The tablets all have some sort of shortcoming. iWhatever has nice apps, but doesn't run some things I have to have. Kendle, et al are more for reading and I need more than reading. Also, some of the mags I read don't come in Kendle, iXXX, etc formats or Zinio won't run on the tab. I have a HP slate running Win 7 - it would be better if the screen would roll around like an iPad but you have to re-set it, so it's a real PITA to use most times. And ALL are a PITA to type on because I'd 6'1" 210 lbs and have big hands. The HP is the worst by far to type with, and it's running real Windows LOL. So yea - I want to get my hands on a Win8 tab with a decent keyboard and see what. Yes, I have a chicklet keyboard for the slate and iPad, but the point is to not carry more crap around, eh? for all that, might as well grab the bag with the Latitude and take it.

There are a lot of companies out there that have a lot invested in Windows, and want a tablet-like solution without having to deal with the abyssmal (for large businesses) Apple model for apps and updates. I think Microsoft is banking on it's relationship with these businesses by presenting an option that fits within the existing MS managment structure. Isn't it safe to say these devices will be on the test benches of many larger companies, particularly those with SOX and HIPAA compliance concerns, as soon as they are available. I'm fairly certain that will be the case with ours.
Speaking personally, I have an iPhone, my wife has an iPhone and a new iPad, and there are a couple of desktops and laptops, all Windows, in the house. I seldom use the iPad for most of the same reasons as Mr. Hiner. I'm ready for a content creation friendly tablet. Maybe MS got it right. We'll see.

Most people are consumers, not producers.

Apple is trying to market to the consumer with its iPad the way they used to market Apples to the layout artist producers last century. They got both markets right.

Micro$oft tried to market to everyone and did NOT get the marketing right but they forced the OEMs down consumer throats and thought of it as a consumer strategy instead of a monopolistic advantage. Now they don't have that advantage and consumers are realizing they don't need a productive laptop to merely like people on the fBook.

Yet M$ won't be able to quite hit the right spot because they don't really believe consumers and will end up spending most of their time keeping the security-conscious CIOs pleased thus they will continue to provide 'business-ready' hardware that consumers will not tolerate and businesses will eventually quit buying because their own employees will continue to BYOD (Bring Your Own Device).

The large majority don't create, they consume content or complete forms created by the elite to do what they need to on line. Creative apps are not necessary for them, nor are full power data entry and navigation features. KISS applies and is wanted. You and MS are thinking about what the the clever IT literate do. Jobs understood what the less intelligent but flash mass market ICT bluffers want and do, and how to minimise functionality to match while maximising elegance, price and profit.

The logical single device for me to do both is a dockable Smartphone shadowed in the cloud which becomes a full function PC when docked, or a dockable iPad perhaps, but they are really for girls , gays and geeks - and a single user transformer phone would hit sales of the other desktop, laptop and tablet devices. IMO

At its expected price point, Surface is not an iPad / Kindle / Nexus killer; however, it could be an Ultrabook / laptop killer. Not sure this would make the folks at Intel very happy...

I use an Acer W500 tablet running Windows 7 Home Premium, because I have legacy programs that I would rather not move to an Android environment. The physical configuration of the W500 is very similar to the recently announced Microsoft tablet, right down to the keyboard docking station. I have no clear idea of what Windows 8 will or won't be, but I can tell you that there are some distinct advantages and disadvantages to Windows 7 on a tablet. Clearly Windows 7 was not developed for a touch-screen environment and that is its major deficiency on a tablet, but I expect Windows 8 to have those limitations solved. If not, then Microsoft will have bombed with their newest OS.

Intel announced they want Ultrabooks for $699 by October. Since part of the problem with most laptops is that they are boat anchors, if I can get a sleak, light fully powered ultrabook with long battery life for $699 that will remove a bunch of objections to laptops. Tablets will still be better for somethings but a bunch of objections will be gone.

Like you, most tablet owners I know still have PCs of one kind or another.

The bottom line sums it up well. Most people don't need or even wan't all that power/fuction. They want simplicity. Apple deliveres that. That's why they have been so succesful.

I suspect that the Surface tablet will be another product that fades away into oblivion.

As a developer we've had little use for the current crop of tablets, in fact we have none. BUT a tablet with true Windows XP or 7 has some REAL potential!

If we can carry a full operational development environment to a client site in a small package, now that is the future. At present that package is a laptop. I believe a tablet has the potential to replace a laptop if it is done right... and it hasn't been (done right) to this point. Just maybe Microsoft has the talent to get it right?