Discussion on:

Learning to love Windows 8

At least using a Linux variant, I don't have to log into email to open the PC - I am not a Win8 fan in any way. I can only hope Win 9 turns out better.

Failing that, quite happy using Ubuntu or a flavour of it.

Have the courage to explain what you disagree with. For the last several weeks you've 'downvoted' any comment that isn't blatantly pro-Microsoft, even the neutral ones. Your actions give you the appearance of being a Microsoft shill. Even Loverock Davidson explains his positions.

I think the Metro interface looks just like the Lotus Notes interface of the 90s, big square boxes, I hardly want to call them icons.

Microsoft wants you to call them tiles.

Haven't they changed the name of their web-based e-mail client at least three times? They changed 'File Manager' to 'Windows Explorer' to gods only know what it is today. SMS became SCCM. They change their product names more often than Facebook changes its privacy settings, and the public name often doesn't match what shows when you click 'Help, About...'

and online storage is now "the cloud"
and data has to be "big data" now
and PDA phones are now "smartphones" and feature phones are something in between
and programs are now "apps"
and so on and so on

I've always grouped my desktop icons into folders which I can line up neatly along the edges of the screen. I see no advantages to the Windows 8 start screen. I've been working in IT for over 20 years now and I see this as just another major change foisted on the public by the MS giant in order to force us all to buy something new, and for many people, take classes to learn the new system. It's commonly called built in obsolescence and I find it a despicable business practice.

And all you wintendo users are doomed!

there are 3 more pointing back at you! You would do well to explore the total meaning behind, "Examine the plank in your own eye before attempting to remove the speck in your neighbor's eye." I think the term is Hypocrite, sir MTsyko aka Wintendo. Nice little nickname you have coined for yourself.

yes, I'm a bit late saying something on this post.

if you create a folder on your desktop and call it My Shortcuts, you can put ALL your shortcuts in which were created when you installed your programs, so your desktop was clean and stays clean all the time.
No cluttered icons all over your desktop any more and you are in control of it.
In Windows 8 you'll have those icons all over your Startscreen, can you order them all will or what, tell me, cause sometimes I'm looking after a program and it's
not on the 'S' screen, so type Winkey + the wanted app. Then you'll get a Searchscreen and maybe your app is mentioned...........
Tell me Mike, is there a better way?

What a bad line. Windows 8 is a huge gamble for Microsoft and given their user base it may or may not work. Many "home" users of existing windows xp, 7 etc may not like it even if it comes with a new PC. How many Windows XP users are still out there ???
With most applications development moving to "cloud" based web apps what gives Windows 8 any advantage over a MAC or Linux? Certainly not Microsoft's leadership in Windows on Cell phones. How's that boat anchor decision working out for Nokia? Not on Tablets where either IPAD or Android make up nearly the entire market. Developers have been losing interest in Microsoft technology for a long time. The only financial lifeboat Microsoft has had in the past 5 years has been their past monopolistic choke hold on PC manufacturers and Businesses. Both of those areas have started changing directions away from a Windows environment. Microsoft's UEFI scheme just shows to me how desparate they are becoming by trying to lock PCs to only boot Windows "unless" you pay a royalty/license fee to Microsoft... why is that even legal ?? UEFI just seems destined for a court lawsuit sooner or later.

"Tony is the owner and managing director of Microcraft eLearning and is one of the creators of the AUTHOR eLearning Development System."

I do not place icons/shortcuts on my desktop. Why? They are always covered by applications. If I need to launch something, I go through the start menu, the task bar, or a toolbar bound to the task bar.

I don't run an OS or a desktop to look at the pretty representations of my files, I run an operating system in order to run applications.

When I need to interact with the OS (launch applications, configuration changes, software installation, etc), I want it to be fast, easy, intuitive and unobtrusive.

I'm not getting that from Windows 8 and the shell formerly known as Metro.

What I seem to have is an overly widgetized phone operating system running across 4 large monitors, doing it's absolute best to prevent me from being productive. I do not need a Facebook tile, a Mail tile and an RSS tile constantly updating in the background, sucking down processor cycles, RAM and network bandwidth. That's why I didn't install or configure any Widgets in Vista or Win7.

As a long-time SQL Server/.NET developer, please, please, please, get out of my way and let me write code.

Tony's thinking is confused and inconsistent.

For example, he says "When it comes to input methods, I dont want to be constrained." Ok, most of us can agree with that sentiment.

But why, then, are users having forced upon them an interface many do not want to use?

There seems to be a consensus that the underlying Win8 code is pretty good and that the Metro/Modern interface is fine for tablets and other touch-screen devices.

The objection to Metro/Modern is that users are being "constrained", i.e. forced, to use it, whether or not suits their work habits and regardless of its effect on productivity.

Bottom Line: Use of Metro/Modern should be an option, not a requirement, and Microsoft is dead wrong in attempting to force a tablet interface onto desktop screens.

"I dont really understand the reasoning behind their objections."

Because you appear to be one of these people who likes plastering their desktop with icons, some of us keep everything tidy on our start menus and a lot of people only use a small number of applications on their desktop. All Windows 8 does is add a lot of clicking we didn't have to do before and clicking in obscure locations on the screen as well which are counter-intuitive, e.g. moving the pointer to the bottom left or bottom right of the desktop window.

I don't like having all the icons plastered all over the screen (tiles), I prefer having everything in a list, it's definitely easier to find stuff in an alphabetical list, especially if you're an IT person who has dozens of little applications installed that you only use occasionally.

I like what I see of Windows 8, so far. I don't agree with the author on the metro (or whatever) interface). Bluntly speaking it is a pain to use on in a desk top unit. All of my users, as far as I know, work from desktops -- without touch screens. They have no plans to add touch screen monitors. It appears that the author is trying to justify a bad marketing ploy by Microsoft (defaulting to metro) rather than the GUI desktop. I've installed a small program that defaults to the desktop on those units trying Win 8 and the users like it: boots faster, is stable and shuts down faster. Hopefully Microsoft will listen and will see the light in the final release and give us the option to open at the GUI desktop (add visible star and shut down button)

I am a bit disappointed that so many people posting about Windows 8 seem to have not figured out how to use it efficiently. Is it that so many people haven't tried it for long enough?

So many people complain about the Metro style start screen so vehemently that they seem to not be aware that the desktop is one click away. Click the desktop tile and you are back in your comfort zone.

So many people think you need a touchscreen to use Windows 8. You absolutely do not need a touchscreen. You can take advantage of the touchscreen features if you have a touchscreen but you can still use a mouse and a keyboard.

So many people seemed to have not noticed the direction that Microsoft has been moving in since Windows XP. For example:
1. The use of the Run dialog box for running applications. While it was originally used mostly for "regedit", "cmd", and "msconfig", it has evolved to the "Search all Programs and Files" dialog box and it is extremely quick for finding files and opening applications. Now, with Windows 8 you don't even need to open a dialog box. Just type a fragment of the name of the file you are looking for on the Start screen.
2. The use of the taskbar for frequently used applications. It's still there in the Windows 8 desktop. In addition, you can also make tiles for them on the Start screen.

So many people seem to think that the placement of the tiles is static. It is not. Organize your tiles by categories. Move the most frequently used ones to the front. Remove the ones (unpin) you don't think you want or need.

So many people seem not to have an appreciation for live tiles. The ability to see my calendar or incoming email without opening the bloated Outlook client is great.

So many people seem to not have an appreciation for Metro-style lightweight apps. The calendar and mail apps are so clean and uncluttered and do 99% of what I use the Outlook for (make appointments and read/reply to mail). I will spend less time in the Outlook client.

Don't get me wrong. I have my complaints too.
I wish I could resize all of the tiles to my liking - not just have the ability to choose a big or small size for some of the tiles.
I wish I could set my own background colors for the tiles - not just pick from a theme.
I wish the tiles were stackable so I could drill down through a series of related applications.
And they could have made shutting down more intuitive but you can make a shutdown icon and tile. I did. Frankly, clicking Start to shut down never made much sense to me.

I encourage everyone to try Windows 8 for at least 3 weeks before posting complaints about what it can't do because it probably can do it.

Can I:
Resize all the tiles so they are about 15x15 pixels big, and have a text name beside them. And give them a customizable unique static image so I can tell the application at a glace.
stack them vertically, not horizontally. Maybe 2 or 3 columns vertically on 1 screen.
organize them into groups and folders.
highlight newly installed programs.
be able to automatically sort a subsection of programs by most frequently used.
Remove the full screening of the start menu, so I can read instruction manuals or work on remote sessions at the same time.



Wait... if I did all that, I would be back to the Xp start menu. Oops!

Win 7 will remain under extended support until January of 2020.

since I touched on others in my replies to you further up.

No, I have no appreciation for live tiles, any more than I had for widgets in Vista or 7. I don't engage in social media. I don't need the temperature. I start Outlook at the beginning of the week and leave it open until Friday. Besides, my open applications cover almost all of my screen so I'm not likely to see them. Most of my users maximize all their application windows, even if they'd be much better off tiling them side-by-side-by-side. Don't Metro apps cover the entire screen anyway?

As to the Metro apps, unless those lightweight calendar and mail apps tie into the corporate Exchange system, I'm going to run the Outlook client at work anyway. Like the widgets before them, I haven't found any I had a use for or don't already have 'traditional' equivalents.

I agree that many mistakenly point to things they say aren't possible; heck, I did it earlier in this discussion. However, it didn't take me three weeks to decide there was no immediate benefit to me or my desktop and laptop users. Deploying W8 on those platforms won't be a priority for us before 2014, at the earliest.

The nice thing about the tiles is, just like shortcuts, If you don't need them, you can remove them. If thy tiles offend thee, pluck them out.
I'm a three monitor guy. (yeah one of those) The Metro Start screen is on one monitor. The desktop is on the other two.
You can see two Metro style apps side-by-side provided your screen meets the size minimum requirements.
Yes, the calendar and mail apps are linked to my corporate exchange account.
Since Win 8, I find myself in the Outlook client only to periodically archive my email.

My normal layout is to have a window for DTV from a tuner card in the bottom right third of the screen, in the left two thirds I have the browser, above the DTV I have several gadgets showing live data. When I start an app, it's from an icon on the taskbar, so it doesn't hide what's already on the screen.

Simple question, will I be able to have this layout in Windows 8? Not some approximation, not something where I need to switch to see the live data in the background, but the same functionality as I currently have.

Of course, if I can layout even more active windows and control the size of the gadgets more precisely, that would be even better.

You will be able to have exactly what you describe on the Windows 8 desktop screen.
Don't confuse the Win 8 Metro style screen which is basically a large start menu with live tiles with the Windows 8 Desktop screen.
The Windows 8 Desktop behaves exactly the same as the Win 7 desktop.
You can pin things to the task bar, save files and shortcuts to the screen, add widgets, play with your computer settings, etc..
The only thing missing on the Win 8 Desktop is the start button. You can approximate one though.

Living with a wife who was only recently dragged grudgingly from XP to Windows 7 and still isn't crazy about it, I feel the biggest obstacle to Windows 8 success is the fact that people will HAVE TO CHANGE to use it. You may be able to change Windows 8, but many users won't know how. It will be interesting to see what happens in usage of alternative operating systems as a result. If you have a steep learning curve on a program you have to pay for, why not invest the energy learning something that is free? Only time will tell.

it really depends on what the user needs to do.
My lovely wife, (God bless her soul) uses our laptop for only a few things.
1. Email through the Outlook Client
2. Browsing
3. MS Word (Frankly, she could get away with WordPad but I won't hurt her feelings.)

She does not venture any further than those three -EVER.
I think she is an ideal candidate for Windows 8. I can set up 3 tiles, hide the rest and call it a day. She might even be able to get away with Windows RT but she might not like the small screen.

That's not 'ding' on W8 or MS. She'd dislike the small screen regardless of OS or manufacturer, wouldn't she? The screen size is one reason I've ruled out tablets for personal use.

I'll put Win 8 on our laptop instead.
I told her about this discussion.
Her reply? "Really? I can have just my three icons? That's all I want. That's awesome!"

"I told her about this discussion.
Her reply? "Really? I can have just my three icons? That's all I want. That's awesome!" "

And those people would probably be happy using tablets. People who have simple needs - email, contacts, calendar, web-browsing, watching videos, etc, shouldn't be using desktops.

Desktops are for production, design, heavy creative work, etc. CAD systems, professional software development, professional image or video editing, and so forth.

I use a tablet or a phone for email, calendars, facebook, web browsing, etc, because I always have one with me and these are simple lightweight apps. Metro is probably great for stuff like that. But why should someone doing professional work on desktop workstations be using an OS not optimized for a desktop? This makes no sense.

No, it isn't. Resistance IS NOT futile either. There are many options and even better choices available. Talk to any MAC or Linux person. You should start NOW, you may desperately need their help getting you out of an MS Hole it the near future!

I have to confess to working with a preview of Win8 for only a short time. I didn't spend any time learning about the metro interface before booting into the system. I was lazy, just like I imagined a majority of users that I support would be. First I was frustrated that I couldn't find a way to start my commonly used programs, so I started exploring what was new on the desktop. That's when I really became frustrated. I couldn't figure out how to close the program. Then to make matters worse, I couldn't figure out how to close Win8. I ended up ending the virtual space. An inellegant shutdown if there ever was one!

Determined to try to reason my way through the interface, I tried again and again and again. Only then did I search for resources to learn how to "tame the beast." Armed with more knowledge, I found many things to really like about Win8.

But, I'm an experienced techie. The people that I support are not. If I was frustrated, I'm quite certain that those that I support will be even more so. If I had a way to disable the metro interface during installation, I wouldn't hesitate to install it for everyone. But, if I have to try to teach them how to get past the Metro interface, I can wait and install Win7 instead.

The desktop in your illustration is most typical of a Mac user on a Windows machine, but many Windows users have something similar. For the record, I have exactly zero icons on my dual-monitor desktop. Ugly icons don't belong on top of my lovely background.

"Its also becoming more common to simply type in the name of a tool to run it"

Does anyone see the irony of the trend to start programs the way DOS users did, or the way *nix users do?

And the gold medal goes to...

You had to know where the program resided in order to run it.
Remember CD (change directory)?
Then if you couldn't remember exactly how the file name was spelled, you had to ask for a list of files in the directory (dir).
Then if the directory list took up more than one screen, you had to remember to add the pause switch. (dir /p)
Or you had to narrow your search to a specific file type. (dir *.exe)
Now you just need to know part of the name.

haha yeah, good times....

You didn't have to know where the program resided except for the single time you added that directory to the PATH= parameter in ... CONFIG.SYS? AUTOEXEC.BAT? I forget which one.

If you can't remember how the file name is spelled, the search in modern versions isn't going to find it either. Typing 'Axcel' ain't gonna open your spreadsheet app.

I forgot about Path.
True, typing "Axcel" will get you nowhere but typing "Micro", "2010", and "ex" will put it on the short list and "xl" will list all of your excel files where you can jump to Excel.
Swiping up on the Metro style screen and clicking the all apps ico will show all of your apps as small icons with the program name next to them.
Try that with DOS.

This may be one area where I'm getting left behind. Many of these new behaviors are rooted in touch devices, specifically smart phones with touch screen. I had no practical exposure to swiping prior to W8, and had no reason to expect this behavior to be present in a Windows OS. Ditto 'hot spots'.

Hell, I still open a Run dialog box before typing an executable name. I've started removing the Run option from my Start menu on new systems. I still work with more systems that have it than not, and not having it on the Start menu doesn't eliminate Win+R.

Too many ingrained behaviors, too much indoctrinated baggage. I'm going to wind up in a re-education camp in the mountains of western Washington, where the cadre will beat and brainwash the new doctrine into me. "What is this Start Menu of which you speak, comrade?"

If there is a touch gesture, there is a keyboard shortcut that does the same thing.
You can press Win+Z instead of swipe.
It calls up All Apps on the Metro style home screen and app-specific functions when you are in an app.
App-specific Example: While in the Mail app, press Win+Z and you have the option to move mail, provide feedback, pin to start, mark unread and sync.

Are there mouse equivalents to swiping?

Are there other touch movements besides swiping? Are any specifically unique to W8? This is a whole new field for me. Obviously they won't do me any good on my desktop, but we're considering W7 tablets for a couple of specific applications. I'd prefer not to lug a mouse around with me to use these devices, since they're obviously designed to operate without one.

I'm not even sure what to call these touch control movements; it makes Googling them difficult.

IIRC, you can right click on the bottom of the Metro screen to bring up the "All Apps" screen.

Update
It actually brings up a bar at the bottom of the screen with an "All Apps" button.

I can't think of any command gestures specific to the Win 8 OS.
It's just swipe up, swipe down, swipe to the left, and swipe to the right.
Lehnerus2000 is correct, right click still performs some tricks.
One of my old tablets used gestures to call up programs. For example, draw a "g" would open the browser to google and "w" would open MS Word. I don't think that was part of the OS though.
You can do that kind of stuff on the Android phone.
One thing I highly recoomend when getting a tablet is getting one that provides dual input support (Finger and Stylus). The finger is good for large buttons and links where the stylus is perfect for the small buttons you might find in legacy apps. The sylus should also act as a mouse. The stylus makes using a tablet much more fluid. I draw diagrams a lot and would be cursing up and down if I had to use my finger.