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Excellent..... i Did this couple of time with my new employer. thanks for lighting the bulb....
Having been on the receiving side of this as well, just remember this: Somebody else may have thought of what you have to say. There may be a reason it hasn't already been done. Insisting that your idea will solve all the problems only proves that you don't yet understand the environment (or maybe culture) that you are working in.
I had some people in my guard unit wear tutu's for our annual PT test one year. It was hilarious.
Bill
Bill
and the inspecting sergeant stopped in the middle of what he was doing and made this statement to I and my NCOIC; "I bet you guys still have your draft cards" We whipped them out like drawing a gun! He said, " I'm wasting my time, and yours!!" and left giving us a pass with flying colors! HA!
This was after the volunteer Army was instituted of course. I'll never forget that! It was one of the high points of my career!
This was after the volunteer Army was instituted of course. I'll never forget that! It was one of the high points of my career!
But Tutu Tuesday was on its way to becoming "Too, too, Tuesday", so management canceled it.
I was going to wear my Vulcan uniform to work but I was afraid they would confiscate my phaser at the gate.
before you can patiently explain to your new employer:
1) hiring me is the one and only good decision you ever made
2) My dog has more common sense and wisdom than you and your entire senior staff...combined.
3) There are five year olds whose lemonade stand has a more coherent marketing strategy as the one you developed with great effort and expense.
4) Your IT security measures are only effective because hackers assumed your site was either a sting operation or a honey pot, or both.
1) hiring me is the one and only good decision you ever made
2) My dog has more common sense and wisdom than you and your entire senior staff...combined.
3) There are five year olds whose lemonade stand has a more coherent marketing strategy as the one you developed with great effort and expense.
4) Your IT security measures are only effective because hackers assumed your site was either a sting operation or a honey pot, or both.
The first indicator that the person is lying or stupid is the fact they took the job.
The best indicator to the fact that someone is lying.....their mouth is still moving.
fall off their chairs from laughter and/or feel pity on the owners of the web site, thus leaving it alone.
The other possibility is that the company website, designed by the wife of the company owner, was so visually disturbing and revolting that the attacker just simply could not deface the web site. But I digress....
The other possibility is that the company website, designed by the wife of the company owner, was so visually disturbing and revolting that the attacker just simply could not deface the web site. But I digress....
Coming into a place and noting everything that is wrong or what you did elsewhere is a sure fire way to get crushed and banished. You want to impress lead by example. You can train a chimp to criticize and throw poop everywhere.
Saying "where I used to work we did ..." is another way to lose any respect, or not receive any. And the impression that the other place did it better. My question is "so why are you not still there?"
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the reasons why an organization does things the current way. You'll be better equipped to bring about change if you have a full understanding and can discuss the current process and map the suggested process. They'll respect that you are speaking from a vantage of understanding.
I beg to differ this is a mistake, but that is because I have a very different perspective on life ... if you go into a new workplace, and you have something to contribute, AND you are right, AND you mention it ... and then ... rather than being grateful, these people who hired you or are working with you don't appreciate it (?) ... then they, do not, deserve you ... and you should leave asap. Go work for someone who gets excited by the fact that you are that intelligent, that insightful, and that confident, that you brought them value immediately, and you were right ... anyone who treats you differently is clearly an idiot
That's great in theory, and yes they should appreciate it, but you have to be diplomatic - remember, everyone else thinks they're right as well, and will assume that since they've been there longer, they must know best. So you have to be patient and come up with some solid evidence to back up your wonderful suggestions. Change has to come from within, you can't impose it on others or they will resent you - this is only natural due to people's egos.
You've summed it up well.
The new guy should keep reminding himself that his new employer must be doing a couple of things right...like making enough money to hire more help, for example.
So make haste slowly. That bad policy or inefficient procedure which you want to throw out the window might well be someone's pride and joy. It might also be vastly better than the previous iteration ("You should have seen this before we fixed it!"). Or it might be one of many links in a chain which cannot be broken, in which case your recommendation to throw it out the window will make you look like a fool.
So learn the lay of the land. Then ask a lot of leading questions. If you can get people to understand ON THEIR OWN that something needs to be fixed, they might well be able to do a better job of fixing it than you can.
The new guy should keep reminding himself that his new employer must be doing a couple of things right...like making enough money to hire more help, for example.
So make haste slowly. That bad policy or inefficient procedure which you want to throw out the window might well be someone's pride and joy. It might also be vastly better than the previous iteration ("You should have seen this before we fixed it!"). Or it might be one of many links in a chain which cannot be broken, in which case your recommendation to throw it out the window will make you look like a fool.
So learn the lay of the land. Then ask a lot of leading questions. If you can get people to understand ON THEIR OWN that something needs to be fixed, they might well be able to do a better job of fixing it than you can.
they MUST be doing a couple of things right? ...trust me, no they don't need to be... I have met plenty of businesses who were doing nothing right, and they were just lucky that their competition was (as yet) equally unimaginative.
I can see what you are saying ... but I do not have the patience or tolerance for waiting for people to grow up & be adults ... and if they aren't ready for it, then I am not going to waste my time sticking around in the hope they evolve.
Their pride is irrelevant to me, and that might be cold or whatever ... but I really don't care ... personal pride has exactly zero value to me, especially in business. What I am interested in is results, and I don't particularly want to dick around waiting for being granted the favour of being listened to & taken seriously
Their pride is irrelevant to me, and that might be cold or whatever ... but I really don't care ... personal pride has exactly zero value to me, especially in business. What I am interested in is results, and I don't particularly want to dick around waiting for being granted the favour of being listened to & taken seriously
Your comment about "waiting for people to grow up & be adults" made me cringe, especially after reading the rest of your post. Good business is all about personal pride: pride in yourself for doing a good job, pride in your employer, pride in the way you do business. And "results" is often dependent upon the pride of the employees, because people with none will not do the same job as those with lots, and will often end up secretly sabotaging whatever efforts you're out to make, not because you're not right, but because you're an arrogant pointy object.
People can be herded like animals and led to slaughter or by using some well placed tact and people skills, led to understand how a change will benefit everyone.
People can be herded like animals and led to slaughter or by using some well placed tact and people skills, led to understand how a change will benefit everyone.
Seriously, that is how you interpreted what I said?
... where did all those extra meanings come from? ... I don't remember saying or implying (even remotely) anything like any of that ... and I cannot see how you can interpret that into what I did say, without first making several assumptions, and I don't remember anyone here asking me first anything like: "...hey when you wrote (blah), it made me think you meant (blah), because when you say (blah), I automatically connected (blah) to (blah) ... am I misinterpreting something here"
... all jokes aside, can you see how that might be a good generic process to go through rather than assuming so many things that clearly, I cannot possibly mean???
... at what stage would I approach people with ideas without attaching value to them? why would I do that? ... did I say I was going to do that? ...did I even imply it?
...at what stage did I imply that I would approach them with an arrogant tone of voice or verbalisation of my ideas? ... or to not use tact? ...are you perhaps assuming this just because I am quite confident to say, that I would absolutely leave a business if they behaved like children, unable to accept advice from someone, and on no better basis than because that person is new to the business?? ... and in what way is that arrogant in some negative sense? ... is all arrogance negative in your view? ... perhaps it is arrogant of me to leave like that because I would absolutely not want to dick around with that kind of high school level mentality; but who are you to say I should? ... and why on earth are you leaping to the conclusion that I am going to put my ideas to people in an arrogant manner? ...do you think I automatically assume before I know where someone stands, that they are going to say no for stupid reasons & so I automatically get defensive even before I know the outcome? ... if so, why are you making that assumption? ...where is your information to suggest it is a relevant or reasonable assumption to make?
... all any of you who criticised my points have seen, is text in a box ... text guys, not pictures & diagrams & charts & lengthy explanation of every single nuance of a point made ... is this what you call good communication?
... where did all those extra meanings come from? ... I don't remember saying or implying (even remotely) anything like any of that ... and I cannot see how you can interpret that into what I did say, without first making several assumptions, and I don't remember anyone here asking me first anything like: "...hey when you wrote (blah), it made me think you meant (blah), because when you say (blah), I automatically connected (blah) to (blah) ... am I misinterpreting something here"
... all jokes aside, can you see how that might be a good generic process to go through rather than assuming so many things that clearly, I cannot possibly mean???
... at what stage would I approach people with ideas without attaching value to them? why would I do that? ... did I say I was going to do that? ...did I even imply it?
...at what stage did I imply that I would approach them with an arrogant tone of voice or verbalisation of my ideas? ... or to not use tact? ...are you perhaps assuming this just because I am quite confident to say, that I would absolutely leave a business if they behaved like children, unable to accept advice from someone, and on no better basis than because that person is new to the business?? ... and in what way is that arrogant in some negative sense? ... is all arrogance negative in your view? ... perhaps it is arrogant of me to leave like that because I would absolutely not want to dick around with that kind of high school level mentality; but who are you to say I should? ... and why on earth are you leaping to the conclusion that I am going to put my ideas to people in an arrogant manner? ...do you think I automatically assume before I know where someone stands, that they are going to say no for stupid reasons & so I automatically get defensive even before I know the outcome? ... if so, why are you making that assumption? ...where is your information to suggest it is a relevant or reasonable assumption to make?
... all any of you who criticised my points have seen, is text in a box ... text guys, not pictures & diagrams & charts & lengthy explanation of every single nuance of a point made ... is this what you call good communication?
We're a small company that has brought in some new people at the mid-manager level and these newbies are trying to make a lot of changes to our workflow without understanding how we work in the first place. It has simply created more paperwork for us and a lot of resentment towards the new managers. While we like their ideas, and there are some good ones, us IT folks need to see where these tools fit in with our process. Trying to fix a critical problem at a client (hospital software) does NOT mean that we need to "storyboard" the process, get managerial approval of our process, then contact the client for "buy-in", then finally implement the fix. Often our immediate fix is, "Hello IT, have you tried turning it off and back on again?"
fair enough .. that is clearly an exception to what I was referring to ... and I would probably do the same in your shoes
Your approach does not inspire me to hire you. No one coming in to a new situation knows all the facts yet. I hired a software engineer with a similar attitude. Within two months, he began trashing our current processes in a meeting with the IT Director and Finance Director. I actually agreed with his conclusions to some extent. But he used faulty information to make his point and in the process made the Finance Director look like she did not know what she was doing. He was obviously trying to impress the IT Director. The Finance Director quietly walked out of the room and returned with the contract, pointing out where he was wrong. Fortunately, he was still in a probationary period. The guy I selected to take his place did not score as high, but had greater people skills. We have been putting out great product together for over 7 years now. There are a whole lot of people out there who know how to do it right that also can work with others. That is who I am looking to hire.
just because some people (most people in fact) are incapable of what I speak of, does not mean that it is impossible ... now, if you hired someone who just started trashing stuff without any respect for figuring it out first or asking any questions of anyone... then that is absolutely not even remotely close to my attitude or approach ... so I think you have made an assumption there, which is not what I was talking about, and I certainly never said anything which directly connects my own behaviour to something like what you describe ... so I feel for you having to put up with that ... but then again, you guys did hire him... so perhaps you should look at your hiring philosophy, as it was clearly flawed before that guy showed up, and it probably still isnt fixed, because you think that I would do what that guy would do, which is just not true ... and what I said has NOTHING to do with not being able to work with others either.
are you saying I am back-peddling? ...how?
nothing I said was back-peddling in the slightest way ... I have more justification for calling you a troll for implying that without giving any justification to the accusation
nothing I said was back-peddling in the slightest way ... I have more justification for calling you a troll for implying that without giving any justification to the accusation
She was fresh out of Uni and Knew It All.
When tasked with writing a subroutine for an Engine Management Program she wrote a very nice piece of Rubbish which would have worked great if it could have fitted into the existing Hardware. Of course because it was only a very small Sub it couldn't actually run an Engine and it was 4 times the size of the available storage capacity we had available.
Her comment when presented with the facts was we needed to redesign our Hardware to increase the Storage Capacity at least 20 times so she could write the Management System in her preferred Language.
We had a limited market for this stuff mainly because it was used on Racing Engines so the so called Necessary redesign which would have increased the costs of the unit several hundred times was declined and she was moved to a position that better suited her temperament in the Unemployment Que.
Col
When tasked with writing a subroutine for an Engine Management Program she wrote a very nice piece of Rubbish which would have worked great if it could have fitted into the existing Hardware. Of course because it was only a very small Sub it couldn't actually run an Engine and it was 4 times the size of the available storage capacity we had available.
Her comment when presented with the facts was we needed to redesign our Hardware to increase the Storage Capacity at least 20 times so she could write the Management System in her preferred Language.
We had a limited market for this stuff mainly because it was used on Racing Engines so the so called Necessary redesign which would have increased the costs of the unit several hundred times was declined and she was moved to a position that better suited her temperament in the Unemployment Que.
Col
I am seeing a few assumptions here ... I never said I knew it all ... did I? ... I dont remember saying that ... that is your interpretation ... and again, while I feel for you ... you do have to admit... you guys hired this girl, so clearly you already had a flawed recruitment system if someone like that got through ... but I still fail to see how you are connecting the dots between what I said, and this completely totally utterly different behaviour... you are just assuming
No where did I say you Knew it all or in any way Implied that you did I just said that this young fresh from Uni Girl thought she knew it all.
OH I fully agree that there was a flawed System in Place there they allowed HR to employ staff and of course HR went for those with Paper Qualifications as the base measurement. So the better the qualification the more that HR wanted that person.
As for me as I was serving a Punishment Detail for repairing Mainframe Circuit Boards instead of sending them back to the factory and getting a substandard repaired unit back and worse still saving lots of money by doing the repair locally with better components that kept working, there was very defiantly a problem with their system as well. Though to be fair to them that was why I was there to begin with.
What was even worse is that those in control of that where not Techs but from HR and they made the silly mistake of moving the State Service Manager of the Mainframe Service Division to a small subsidiary supporting Motor Racing. Apparently every Electronic Engineer would be begging for forgiveness and wanting to return after learning their lesson within a few months and unfortunately for them I was there for nearly 8 Months before my Immediate Boss twigged that I was quite happy and didn't want to go back to the High Pressure Job that I was serving the punishment for. Of course the fact that I was a Mechanical Engineer with a Electronic Degree and I had started my working life in Motor Racing Vehicle Design probably wasn't the best thing to happen, because I still like Motor Racing and this is now 40 + years after the event. I just mentioned to my Immediate Boss that maybe someone should have looked at what my actual qualifications actually where instead of thinking that they just employed Electrical Engineers to do the job that I had been doing.
Moving me from High End Business Systems to a place where I had direct contact with the various teams and had to attend every race meeting and had open access to every team was a real pleasure no work at all involved. Apparently other Electrical Engineers thought that needing to travel all of the time and being away from home on weekends was a bad thing. I was doing that at the Main Frame section anyway but instead of being tied up at race tracks I was stuck in the gloom of some subbasement fighting with a problem that no one else could fix and I was away more than just a few weekends a year. Most times when I went to work in the morning I didn't know where I would be sleeping that night and had several packed suitcases always in the office.
Oh and the fact that I didn't have to wear a Suit & Tie at that position in no way was any incentive to stay put.
That company was a perfect example of why HR should be completely removed from the Hire Process and idiot "Paper Qualified" people should be appointed to Management above those who actually did the work, but then again Big Blue in the 70's was nothing if not interesting. And exactly where are they today?
Col
OH I fully agree that there was a flawed System in Place there they allowed HR to employ staff and of course HR went for those with Paper Qualifications as the base measurement. So the better the qualification the more that HR wanted that person.
As for me as I was serving a Punishment Detail for repairing Mainframe Circuit Boards instead of sending them back to the factory and getting a substandard repaired unit back and worse still saving lots of money by doing the repair locally with better components that kept working, there was very defiantly a problem with their system as well. Though to be fair to them that was why I was there to begin with.
What was even worse is that those in control of that where not Techs but from HR and they made the silly mistake of moving the State Service Manager of the Mainframe Service Division to a small subsidiary supporting Motor Racing. Apparently every Electronic Engineer would be begging for forgiveness and wanting to return after learning their lesson within a few months and unfortunately for them I was there for nearly 8 Months before my Immediate Boss twigged that I was quite happy and didn't want to go back to the High Pressure Job that I was serving the punishment for. Of course the fact that I was a Mechanical Engineer with a Electronic Degree and I had started my working life in Motor Racing Vehicle Design probably wasn't the best thing to happen, because I still like Motor Racing and this is now 40 + years after the event. I just mentioned to my Immediate Boss that maybe someone should have looked at what my actual qualifications actually where instead of thinking that they just employed Electrical Engineers to do the job that I had been doing.
Moving me from High End Business Systems to a place where I had direct contact with the various teams and had to attend every race meeting and had open access to every team was a real pleasure no work at all involved. Apparently other Electrical Engineers thought that needing to travel all of the time and being away from home on weekends was a bad thing. I was doing that at the Main Frame section anyway but instead of being tied up at race tracks I was stuck in the gloom of some subbasement fighting with a problem that no one else could fix and I was away more than just a few weekends a year. Most times when I went to work in the morning I didn't know where I would be sleeping that night and had several packed suitcases always in the office.
Oh and the fact that I didn't have to wear a Suit & Tie at that position in no way was any incentive to stay put.
That company was a perfect example of why HR should be completely removed from the Hire Process and idiot "Paper Qualified" people should be appointed to Management above those who actually did the work, but then again Big Blue in the 70's was nothing if not interesting. And exactly where are they today?
Col
you went out of the frying pan into heaven
to quote (loosely) from Uncle Remus,
"Please, Brer Fox, don't throw me into that briar patch!"
to quote (loosely) from Uncle Remus,
"Please, Brer Fox, don't throw me into that briar patch!"
Silly boys for doing that really.
Of course I did feel sorry for my Boss as he really had no idea of what had happened till well after it happened. Apparently having a Minus Number of 75 Repaired Main Boards is a Bad Thing, at least that's what the Accountants told me.
Col
Of course I did feel sorry for my Boss as he really had no idea of what had happened till well after it happened. Apparently having a Minus Number of 75 Repaired Main Boards is a Bad Thing, at least that's what the Accountants told me.
Col
Our management at Eaton learned to ignore HR completely. I had one of my best interviews of my life there. The section forman simply showed me some tools and connection parts and asked me if I knew what they were and could name them, as well as explain what they did.
I passed.
That was the best company I ever worked for - if I hadn't lost my health for a while, I never would have left.
I passed.
That was the best company I ever worked for - if I hadn't lost my health for a while, I never would have left.
sorry about that then ... there just appears to be quite a few people here making all sorts of bizarre assumptions based on a handful of words in a text box, and unable to conceive of the idea that their interpretation & assumptions might needs some questions before assuming they are right ... but I see what you are saying now.
I absolutely agree HR people should be removed from the process ... if hiring staff is the most important thing a business can do, then it seems bizarre to hand over the start of the process to someone who may very well remove the top candidate from the short list, and not even know they had done it ... the whole process is upside down & inside out to what it should be.
I absolutely agree HR people should be removed from the process ... if hiring staff is the most important thing a business can do, then it seems bizarre to hand over the start of the process to someone who may very well remove the top candidate from the short list, and not even know they had done it ... the whole process is upside down & inside out to what it should be.
I was hired at my place of employment roughly 4 months ago; it is my first IT position after graduating with my B.S. in Computer Information Systems. I was hired to replace a contractor that had been coming here to do all the IT work. Due to the rising costs, and low quality of work done by the contractor, our company decided to hire me - the lone IT guy for a 110 acre campus. A rookie. Over 12 buildings with point-to-point access. Over 100 computers and network devices. One hour of training received, before I was handed the keys and told to make things work.
And I did just that. The network runs more smoothly, employees are happy, and we have been more productive. My boss has come to me for advice on several things that needed (and still need) to be taken care of and we work to get it done. I have gone to him several times and brought up things that need to be done/changed/fixed/destroyed/phased out. These requests are often met with, "Let me look into it." or "Sounds good. Get it done." In short, my supervisors TRUST that the job will get done, and things will improve...after all, they hired me.
The point I am trying to make is that a lot of of management has the attitude that what they know is always best. "It's always worked, so that is how it's going to be done." With that mentality we might still be rubbing 2 sticks together to make fire. Change is sometimes a good thing.
There is a huge advantage to hiring an employee that has the confidence to suggest changes and work to achieve them. Of course, that employee needs to be tactful in introducing the idea; you shouldn't stomp all over peoples toes. But working for a company that constantly scoffs at my ideas or ignores a suggestion because "their way or the highway" and because I am the new guy, doesn't sound like a place I would want to work for.
I got a good piece of advice from the best manager I ever had a few years ago. I asked him what his philosophy was on being a manager, and how he did it so well. He said, "The manager has to know how to manage the employees, and the employees have to know how to manage the manager."
I agree with Trevor about employees having immediate value at the workplace. If you are not benefiting from your own hiring process, then something is wrong.
And I did just that. The network runs more smoothly, employees are happy, and we have been more productive. My boss has come to me for advice on several things that needed (and still need) to be taken care of and we work to get it done. I have gone to him several times and brought up things that need to be done/changed/fixed/destroyed/phased out. These requests are often met with, "Let me look into it." or "Sounds good. Get it done." In short, my supervisors TRUST that the job will get done, and things will improve...after all, they hired me.
The point I am trying to make is that a lot of of management has the attitude that what they know is always best. "It's always worked, so that is how it's going to be done." With that mentality we might still be rubbing 2 sticks together to make fire. Change is sometimes a good thing.
There is a huge advantage to hiring an employee that has the confidence to suggest changes and work to achieve them. Of course, that employee needs to be tactful in introducing the idea; you shouldn't stomp all over peoples toes. But working for a company that constantly scoffs at my ideas or ignores a suggestion because "their way or the highway" and because I am the new guy, doesn't sound like a place I would want to work for.
I got a good piece of advice from the best manager I ever had a few years ago. I asked him what his philosophy was on being a manager, and how he did it so well. He said, "The manager has to know how to manage the employees, and the employees have to know how to manage the manager."
I agree with Trevor about employees having immediate value at the workplace. If you are not benefiting from your own hiring process, then something is wrong.
He was hired to be "the" expert on-campus guy
that's different from being the new guy among presumed equals
that's different from being the new guy among presumed equals
...and a little quote from one of the great managers I worked for years ago was: " ...if you never screw up, you're fired ... because only when you screw up do I know you are really trying..." - and that had such a huge impact, because he was basically giving me permission to try new things
As having made this mistake multiple times myself I can heartily agree with your recommendations here. While my intentions were good...the approach and timing was all wrong. It's much better to keep the mouth shut on new ideas at first and let them come to you. I just wish I had learned this sooner!!!
I don't think that this could be the biggest mistake that a new employee could make. First off most, and I say MOST of the time a company wants someone in there to make new ideas. So start off strong and show them that you are worth the salary they are paying you.
The purchaser of consulting services knows something is amiss or you wouldn't have that contract. But if your attitude from day one is "I'm here to fix you." The company employees you depend on for information will all slink away much like a dog going to the veternarian for a similarly named procedure.
The company's employees need to trust that you aren't there to either eliminate their employment, or make their lives less joyful. Pointing out obvious issues on day one may not get you to day two.
The company's employees need to trust that you aren't there to either eliminate their employment, or make their lives less joyful. Pointing out obvious issues on day one may not get you to day two.
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