Discussion on:

You don't really need a Start Menu in Windows 8

to create shortcuts on your desktop, or launch programs

C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs

Right click the taskbar.
Choose Toolbars
Choose New Toolbar
Navigate to C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs
Choose Select Folder
Now you will see "Start Menu >>" on your taskbar.
Click on the ">>" hover on the Programs folder and all of your programs appear.

Administrative Tools, Microsoft Office, Windows Accessories etc. - They're all there. - right from the good ol' taskbar.

Only thing missing is the Icon.

The right side of the start menu is missing, but the [Windows}-X shortcut gives you everything missing and more. If you really hate the Win8 start screen, [Windows] will take you to the Win7-style desktop.

The right side of the start menu is missing but you can recreate it in the taskbar.

But it's just as easy to say

You don't really need Windows 8

Business is unlikely to adopt it in any serious form on the Desktop the only place it will find it's way into Business is through the BYOD where personal Tablets and Phones with 8 installed start to get into the inside of the business. Some Business may even Bar their Introduction because that OS is not compatible with their existing systems.

So in Business at least I can not see any Dramatic Uptake and 8 will remain on the Low Resource Personal Devices where the End Users may actually even like it. 8 As it currently stands is great on Mobile Devices where people have already got used to the Apple Style UI that 8 is but on the desktop it has a fight on it's hands.

Here at least the Wholesalers are offering big Discounts on systems loaded with 8 anything while the 7 Systems sell at the Premium prices.

Col

To give you a little more insight on the Win8 situation, I'll talk a little about the U.S. Air Force. Typically the USAF upgrades to the latest version of Windows immediately. Heck, they were still doing some XP->Vista upgrades when they started the Win7 upgrades; that's how fast they move. They don't wait for SP1 or anything like that. The USAF is heavily in the MS camp for the desktop as is most of the U.S. Govt. (It is the core of what they call their Standard Desktop Configuration [SDC]).

Not so with Win8. There are no plans to upgrade anytime soon. First, some of their core middle ware doesn't work with Win8. Then there is the whole training issue. Training hundreds of thousands of troops is no menial task even for the USAF. When you jump the tracks as far as MS has with Win8, they're finding that even their hardcore clients are not real happy and are considering skipping this one.

That's a little scary. I hope you guys pay attention to the Early Bug Swarm issue, wherein bugs show up shortly after a release.

No plans to upgrade anytime soon? Considering skipping this one? Seems to me that is what many people did with Vista (which we ran quite successfully and productively for 2.5 years before moving to Win7). What did they get with Windows 7 - mostly Vista (tweaked a bit...but we untweak some things... such as strict UAC setting). If they don't get started now, when Win 9 comes out they'll be hurting...or have to move to Linux or Apple and those training and core systems issues. Just sayin....

Good luck convincing the masses of that one.

Is you most certainly do not need a mouse with your Surface RT which will only have 4 or so years of Support and your Win Phone 8.

8 is ideal for those platforms but I see it as next to useless on the Desktop. Or as my Father would say Windows 8 is as useful as Teats on a Bull.

I just don't see 8 being widely adopted on the Desktop as it currently stands but it's an ideal user interface for Mobile Devices.

Col

As my father would say, "Where's the cord on my home phone?!"

And *never* use a USB mouse on my ASUS TF300. It is a lousy method of interfacing with the desktop on that device.

On Windows 8 on a non-touch device though, I do use a mouse. The form of the device is going to determine the best interface and increasingly, that will *not* be a mouse.

Whoever voted me up out of the basement, thanks. I hate driveby downvotes.

If there is something you disagree with, at least have the courtesy to post your view if you're going to neg another comment.

the up vote that is... I agree the drive-by down vote is the work of a scoundrel. I couldn't see anything objectionable in your post.

BTW I do that routinely, up vote posts that aren't given the courtesy of a reply.

There seem to be at least two roving bandsof down-voters in recent months. One patrols the threads looking for anything good being said about Win 8 and marks them down, the other looks for anyone saying anything bad about Win 8.

Personal experience says that the "defenders of Win8" is the larger of the two groups. But neither group is in the habit of actually responding to posts they disagree with and engaging in debate.

Why care about the opinions of people who can't be bothered to express them?

non-positive posts posts on Win 8. have another up to make you feel better.

I get down voted when I show someone how to do something in Windows 8. What is up with that?

that downvote anything favorable about W8. I still say downvoting should require a comment. If you don't comment, your vote isn't recorded. Even a simple 'No text' would at least identify who disagrees with you.

as a comment and I'd also allow it when the message no longer has the 'Reply' button showing. I like to down vote spammers when I flag their messages - this means anyone using the default show setting gets the spam hidden due to the negative vote.

You really have no idea do you

Have you been to the shops lately? Every Windows 7 device is on sale, get out of the house more

It is in the best interest of big box retailers to carry the latest licences, for MANY reasons. SALES also draw customers, those who have been holding off on 7 will now invest. The software licences seem about the same, the hardware they come preinstalled on gets pretty cheap though.
A shop that doesn't carry mainly new products and software does not look like they are on top of technology. Stock movement is also critical, whereas in a boutique style shop, it is less important as the solution provided.

As for Premium price, the higher end machines are still the higher end/premium machines, around here they still mainly boast Win7, but you'd never see anything more than halfway decent in a big box retailer, FutureShop/Best Buy etc..

You really can not understand what you read can you?

Here at least the Wholesalers are offering big Discounts on systems loaded with 8 anything while the 7 Systems sell at the Premium prices.

The operative word here is Wholesalers not Shops there is a very big difference between the two and if you do not understand that there is no hope for you.

OH and the shops here are all stocked with Win 8 Home which is not of any use to any of my clients who would need Professional or Enterprise at the very least so they are not the ones shopping in the Shops they get me to supply what they need as apposed to what is available in the shops today. As most are on Enterprise and that's not available in 8 on anything but Volume License perhaps you could suggest a shop where I could buy a copy?

Col

SO TRUE! All purists can complain all they want. People are now buying Windows 8 machines and some without a touchscreen. That means the Start screen and Windows key will become the "new normal". The worst thing to be is a tech guy who doesn't know how to work the latest OS on the market.

Don't downgrade to 7 from the new system we sold you with 8 because we are not going to provide Drivers or support for the old OS.

We might provide support for the Hardware but you'll first have to prove to us that it is really a Hardware Failure and not the Software that you have installed on it which is the problem.

Now as I used my newspaper to swat a fly that was annoying me this morning I want to know if my iPad is covered for the damage that it got?

Or do I try to wrap my Fish & Chips in the broken thing?

Either way it's not very good for much that the old media was so great for.

Col

They may be able to get away with that in the consumer market, but their corporate customers are going to raise a heck of ruckus if HP tries to force them onto Win 8 when many are still in the process of rolling out 7.

We load whatever we want, and will continue to do so as long as we can get hardware drivers for the desired OS.

I belong to a few MS Office blogs, and I remember when Office 2007 rolled out with its Ribbon menu -- a high percentage of users swore at the moment that they would never upgrade from their dear 2003, and committed to send nastygrams to MS to get the old style menus back. What they failed to see is that these kinds of UI overhaul represent a big investment for MS, and history tells you that they will stick to their guns and Will Not bring the old interface back. Windows 9 will undoubtedly attempt to improve on Windows 8, not 7.
What's the issue with that? Using the Office example again, it's been 6 years since 2007 came out, and 2010 has been out for a couple of years as well, but you still have people on the boards asking how the Ribbon works :-\
Don't get me wrong: I'm on the "hate Metro" bandwagon like many of you, and don't have any intention of upgrading any time soon... but I'm also aware that this is where the future of the most popular (or rather, most installed) OS is going, and it behooves all of us to get on the train, like it or not, so we're not trying to figure out what Windows 9 is all about when it comes out in a few years.
--vic

Everyone here should at least upgrade one of their machines to 8 or get a Surface RT or Pro (when available). Load it up with your real life software and see how it goes. It will be time better spent than crying about the constant forward march of technology in here.

Personally I'd be buying a NB with 8 for my own needs it's cheaper and more powerful not to mention much more storage space.

Col

To the best of my knowledge, The Surface Pro will be the lightest full Win 8 tablet / ultrabook with a real stylus on the market
I have been using Windows tablets daily since "Win XP for Tablets". Do you remember when it was not part of the XP OS?
I'll probably add a generic USB docking station with a large monitor, full size keyboard, mouse, and a large external HD.

The great thing about the PC platform is that you've got all kinds of choices.

You've got a traditional notebook with a 2-5 hour battery life, a large mechanical drive, probably an optical drive, a variety of screen sizes, and touch-screen or traditional input. In a price range between $250 and thousands of dollars.

You've got an Ultrabook with 5-8 hour battery life, an SSD, no optical drive, screen sizes between 11" and 14" typically, and touch-screen or traditional input - in a price range between ~$800-$1800

In the Ultrabook cataegory there are a lot of variables going on right now. Sacrafices and gains. It depends on where your value is on the features and benefits of the device. 64 or 128GB seems very small to me for the cost of the Surface Pro - but as an ULTRA ultrabook - it has a lot of things that really no other device approaches, for a price comparable to a top end iPad. The Surface Pro seems to be an emphasis on the Modern-UI experience and a tablet heavy use-model that *can* support real IA64/32 code. But both the Surfce RT and the Pro are focused on people who want something that is more of a competitor with the Android and iOS tablets, less so with traditional PCs.

I don't think that will be hugely successful starting out, honestly. I think that PC users who want a PC that has some tablet like features will be what drives adoption of Windows 8 and Windows 8 devices. Once Windows 8 gets some momentum, we might see the more tablet-driven devices like the Surfaces gain more traction. I see the Surface devices appealing to executives. The RT to general executives - and the Surface Pro to power-user executives who require a real Windows experience. Maybe. Also, to Microsoft loyalists. Which... fine. Apple has their loyalists, Android has theirs, and Microsoft also has theirs. The same basic kind of guy who buys a iPad Mini is the kind of guy who will buy a Surface RT or Pro.

An occasionally mobile tablet device might fit my needs. As the IT Director, I do end up going to several in-house meetings each day other meeting attendees have come to expect me to look things up and share them at the meeting.
Everything I have used so far has been a bit of a compromise.
I used to bring my Fujitsu tablet convertible. I like having access to all my network resources while in the meeting so that I can settle issues (or perceived issues) on the spot. It's handy but it is a bit bulky. I certainly would not carry it around all day.
I tried using an 7" HTC Flyer for a year. It's easier to carry but not well connected to network resources.
I just bought a Galaxy Note II smartphone (ultra-mini tablet) which handily replaces the Flyer. It's even easier to carry but still not as connected to network resources as I would like. I can remote into a desktop via citrix receiver but once you connect, you only have a 5" screen.
I think the Surface pro would be better than the Fujitsu because it's lighter yet still has the same functionality but I don't see me carrying it around all day. I see myself docking it at my desk until I have a meeting and using the Note II for those impromptu hallway meetings.
I'll keep you posted.

The RT can see networks and shared folders. The Pro is like one's desktop when out of the office. You know, VPN and hardcore apps and stuff. RT is a natural at home because the majority of our personal use falls in that social/web appliance area. But I believe RT has the basics to stand on it's own at most office meetings.

I forgot to mention one thing that all three of my mobile devices have that the RT unfortunately does not. -a stylus.
I handwrite a lot of meeting notes and draw a lot of diagrams so the stylus is a requirement.
I shouldn't have omitted that.
FYI: I know I am still in the honeymoon phase with my Galaxy Note II but so far, the killer feature for me is when you take the stylus out, a notepad screen instantly pops up even if the phone is locked. Way cool & super useful.

It is a little bulkier, a little more Ultrabook and a little less "executive meeting device", and a little more consumer driven as far as having flexibility to be a relatively powerful desktop PC replacement. But I'm not a director... I'm a lowly middle manager... I have time for a leisure life every now and then...

The Surface Pro does strike me as an executive machine. The lower amount of storage and sleeves-up no-nonesense approach speaks to having a strong focus on professional use. The Stylus also seems to be something that appeals to the higher ranks of the corporate totem pole.

I'm sure with OneNote and the ability to insert doodles, sketches, and do quick and accurate handwriting transcription - the Surface Pro will be a formidable machine even in tablet mode, especially for the kind of uses you describe.

and I was not very impressed with their displays and speed.
It's a whole new ballgame since 2008 though so things might have changed.
I remember doing battle with Lenovo's ThinkVantage program which I alternately called ThinkDISadvantage and StinkVantage.

Tried on my laptop with each of the preview releases. I boot into the copy on my desktop about once a week to check for patches and see if they have fixed whatever is causing the constant freeze ups I am experiencing (they haven't) and spend the rest of my time in 7. I did not have any of the constant pauses/freezes during the CP/RTM testing I did, yet the final product does not seem to work. Other than that, while I do like a handful of the improvements, Metro continues to be a piece of crap for non-touch interfaces and my desktop is effectively unusable while I am booted into Windows 8.

Every article I have seen espousing the merits of 8 and the Interface Formerly Known As Metro seems to offer more complicated ways of doing the same things we use the Sart menu for now. I will grant that I do not often go into the Start menu as most of the programs I use regularly are either pinned to the taskbar or have shortcuts on my desktop. However, I have found the Start menu to be much more useful than the IFKAM whenever I have need to use them.

Conclusion - Metro on a touchscreen device fine, it is well suited to them. But return the Start menu for keyboard-and-mouse centric devices.

Heh, all my real life software is on the desktop side! Photshop, jEdit, eclipse, thunderbird, Libre Office, CoolEdit Pro and Steam games. I've got Windows 8 on my main machine (couldn't resist $40 upgrade to 'Pro' version), but after playing with the Metro interface for about a week, I installed Start8 so I could get back to real work (and games!).

It's a good thing no one here has a job forecasting future trends for any major corp or government entity. I mean, YIKES! The workforce is constantly changing as old dogs and their keyboard-centric ways gives way to new pups and their clickity-swippity moves. OfficeRT brings in a whole set of tools that make you wonder if a keyboard is necessary. (It is, but not as much as you think.) Many more programs... er, apps are soon to follow. Because every third party follows the OS maker or they will become the dBase IV of history.

I know many 35 and over still use clicking keyboards and CRTs... and they don't do this ironically (LOL). But the kids in the hall are playing with touchscreens and Kinects. The text will still need to be inputed but everything else can be done without a keyboard. Just because you've practiced those shortcuts for one score and 2 years or more doesn't mean the babies won't just two-finger swipe themselves into your prime cubicle.

I expected more forward thinking from a bunch of techno-geeks. You guys are becoming your fathers (and not in that hero-worshipping way).

I'm well over 35 and use a clicking keyboard but not because I'm nostalgic. It's a new gaming keyboard with programmable and light up keys - the best kind of keyboard to have if you like playing first person shooters.
It also makes a satisfying sound when you are typing.
The CRT is long gone - and not missed.

"I know many 35 and over still use clicking keyboards and CRTs..."

Why spend money replacing hardware that works? If they're not doing it 'ironically' (how does one use a computer ironically?) then they must be satisfied with this hardware. Why should they replace it?

Drove a 1968 Town and Country Squire Woody Station wagon until he passed away in 1987. It worked for him. Good for him.

But in business, there becomes a supportability factor. I've seen one practice that still has an IBM PS/2 doing daily tasks that are practice critical - on Windows 3.11. They've got no alternative when something finally breaks - and the app they are running won't run on anything they'll be able to find today. They're going to have to hit Goodwill and pray when they have a problem.

I agree regarding computer systems. My comments were directed to myangeldust's position that business users choose (or are assigned)different models of peripherals based on the users' age, not on function or need.

There's a crash test video on YouTube between a '59 Chevy and a '09 Chevy. If you were in that '59 car you'd be dead right now. Also poor mileage, slow, difficult to steer, part availability, impractical size, and that smell... What's that smell coming from the back seat?

Old timers talk about how you could drive an old car into a brick wall, and the frame would still be straight, but you drive a new car into a snow bank, and it is totalled.

Those are called crumple zones - and I'd rather have the *car* absorb the energy and be totalled than have it transfer that energy into the occupants inside, who get turned into jello on the unpadded, sharp metal dash or impaled on the non-collapsing steering wheel tree.

By the way, when I was 4 or 5, my grandfather was at a stop light, and I was resting my head on the dash... he creeped forward until he hit the car in front of him at probably less than 5MPH. The impact launched my head back and then down onto the dash, splitting my forehead open. I still have the scar. Of course, seatbelts weren't mandatory and a 5 year old could be in the front seat with no booster back in those glorious days of deadly metal dashboards.

devices and things, the population is getting way out of hand. Haven't you heard about survival of the fittest? We need people who CAN survive being hit in a crumple-zone-free car, or who can drink tap water without being poisoned. The rest of you, can go back to your mommy's womb and not come out.
Think about it, those cars were built TO LAST. People die, anyway, but will you ever see a '53 Chevy made again? No. The crap they build now, is designed to wear out, and be very expensive to maintain: a thousand dollars to replace a heater core? No thank you (2005 Jeep, where you have to take out the steering column, windshield, dashboard, AC system, JUST TO GET TO IT. ) '53 chevy: Unbolt from firewall. Replace heater core. Done. Under $100 even now. Oh and I'm not riding in one of those unsafe little cars you can't even GET INTO without first kneeling on the ground to get into. Hit one with a '53 Chevy, you'll drive away, and leave the silly little car all crumpled up on the sidewalk where it belongs. Fuel mileage, OH BOY we've come a LONG way. '53 Chevy truck 12 mpg. 2012 Chevy truck: 12 mpg. RIIIGHT.
Apparently
CONSUMERISM instead of QUALITY is the new standard. Sell crap you have to replace instead of stuff that lasts. Sure.
Now, give me my start button back.
Thank you!

The only thing in win 3.11 I could not get to work on new hardware is the power button on the keyboard....

.

A well-run office needs to keep upgrading to remain relevent. It shouldn't have to hold back because one or two employees are uncomfortable with new tools. IT personnel should neither be nostalgic nor regressive when it comes to the office's tech infrastructure. Actually said personnel should understand that there's almost always a better way to do something when it comes to computers. When I work on someone's ancient tech I wonder to myself how I ever got used to that. Every nerd should wonder the same thing from time to time.

Of course, I'm not a techno-evangelist. If you don't want Win8 you don't have to get Win8. Just don't get all Taliban on us when others want Win8.

but on a limited budget, would you rather spend the money upgrading the hardware and software, or the peripherals? I'd rather upgrade the system AND monitor for those CAD users; if that means the factory floor users who just clock in and out may have to put up with CRTs until hand-me-down flat panels become available.

You can easily replace the start button by placing quicklaunch and desktop toolbars on the taskbar on the desktop and managing them. Once set up you don't need to go near the Start window at all. Much better than the Start button.

Many people will look at that post as if you're talking Star Trek at them.

Also, removal of the feature means developers no longer have to support it. And we finally got them all to understand how to organize their shortcuts!

Oh well. At least, this paves the way for Microsoft UI scientists to invent a spectacular new interface in which shortcuts can be stored in hierarchies so you don't have to see all of them all the time, in Windows 10.

can u believe MS actually sells 2012 server with this UI, I hate it already.

That's fine, but the start menu was an infinitely better solution.

We've already had long quick launch bars, and over sized task bars, we gave them up for the start menu.

But in truth, the lack of the start menu doesn't piss me off as much as the lack of customization options for Metro and the new start menu. I can't even figure out how to change a fricken Icon, it insists on using the generic white window main metro screen.

It's nice to see someone not bashing Windows 8 because it's different for once.

The one thing I would have added and the first thing I would recommend to anyone moving to Windows 8 for the first time.

Pin to Start
Clear all the icons you don't want out of the Start Screen and pin the ones you want. This can include all your desktop apps. Then re-arrange them into whatever order you like best. Then just press the windows key or click the bottom left and all the programs you need are right there.

The old start menu was very limited in its ability to customize. If you just deleted all the shortcuts you didn't want it would probably prove troublesome somewhere down the line. Of course you could back them up into a folder somewhere but that sounds like a lot of hassle and beyond the regular user.

The new start screen is there to shape into whatever you want but people seem to miss this. If you were so inclined you could remove every metro app and create an all Desktop app only version of the Start Screen. Later if you change your mind you can just pin stuff back again. All my top 8 or 9 progs are in the first left hand column of my Start Screen and I know exactly where to find them. It's actually made things quicker as I no longer need to drill down three folders to get to things or create a gruesome looking start menu with too many things pinned to the top level.

The problem is that if you had a lot of applications installed then the hierarchical nature of the start menu meant you could find what you wanted without having to hunt as long as you could remember what sub-group it was in. With the start screen you lose that and are left with essentially what I saw many poor users have, a desktop, now start screen, that has so much stuff it you can't find anything.

And you will find everything

I set up the following catgories of programs and apps on my start screen.
(in order left to right / with left most = most frequently used)
Home: Desktop, Google, IE, The Time, Calendar Store
Communication: Outlook, Mail, People, Messaging
Office: Office suite, Evernote, Adobe Acrobat, PDF Touch, SkyDrive
Tools: Remote Desktop, Metro Commander, Control Panel
Entertainment: Multimedia 8, Tunein, & Magazines
This works for me.
What I wish Windows 8 could do is search by category & change the focus to that category. My categories are manageble - spanning two screens but if you have many many programs, it would be helpful to search for categories.
Nested categories would be useful too.
Also, zooming in on the start screen minimizes the icons and you can select a category this way.
All that being said, I usually know at least part of the name of the program I am looking for so typing it in to open it is very quick.

Windows + Q, instead of Windows + x + s + Esc

yes I have used wee eight without the start menu, but apparently if you launch Chrome or Firefox, they use the old desktop, you know........so we put the Startw8 back.
I'm still learning to use the new way of windows, so it will come to me in time...

http://www.redmondpie.com/this-extensive-list-of-windows-8-keyboard-shortcuts-will-help-you-adapt-to-the-new-interface/

I for one do not miss the Start menu at all. I just use Windows+Q and start typing, your application will be found immediately. I don't know what all the fuss is about.

But some people don't want to move their hands to the key board and start typing. I would guess you used to start most of your apps on Win 7 by start/search/ type the name. That is fine if that is the way you like to do it, but not everyone did/does. So what would you say if instead of getting rid of the start menu MS had removed the search capability you like? Would you still say "I don't know what all the fuss is about."?

Because they didn't remove it, did they? It really is very simple:
The Start MENU has gone. Instead of clicking the bottom left corner of the screen, press the Windows key and the Start SCREEN appears. From here you can launch you apps/programs or whatever you want to call them. Alternatively Press Windows+Q or move the mouse to the right-hand corner to bring up the Search charm and type it in there. It honestly isn't hard, it isn't even slower, it's FASTER. If you don't like it, fine, you probably didn't like it when the motor car was invented because you were used to riding your horse and carriage everywhere. It's not coming back. Deal with it. Eventually you will wonder why you ever bothered with it. I adjusted to it immediately and I was fully expecting to hate it.

to appear to find something when I could simply click a button and open it. I don't want my applications I have open to be overcast by a whole screen when that's not what I need. And I'm not typing "math" or "figures" or whatever I might think of to open Calculator, when I could simply click my shortcut to it from the start buttons menu, or from my Quickstart floating toolbar (I do the same thing on Linux by the way) from an easy list I've created, or failing that, I KNOW that it's in start/programs/accessories/calculator, just a few moves of the mouse away, without eclipsing the screen, OR typing ANYthing. Makes no sense to do it any other way.

The calculator shortcut is still in Start Menu > Programs > Windows Accessories.
If you don't want to type "Calc" on the Start screen, don't do it. You can continue accessing it the way you know.
Personally, I get to my calculator program by pressing the calculator button on my keyboard which also still works.

I think that simpy using a mouse to open the Quick Launch bar pop-up menu and selecting the favourite program you want sounds a lot quicker and easier than hitting the Windows key + Q on the keyboard and then typing in the first few letters of an app!

Chances are your fingers are already on the keyboard and it is quicker to press Windows+Q, then type 'w' + hit than to move your hand to the mouse and then do several clicks. Try it.

I'd even venture that you're a touch typist. My 200 or so 'hunt and peck' users reach for the mouse before the keyboard, using the keyboard only when they have to enter data.

I'll get done showing a user something using the keyboard and say "here, now you try it..." The almost always grab the mouse and sit there thinking for a lengthy pause, before realizing the mouse isn't involved.

The computer is an extension of the right hand to most people. (of course left, if a lefty, but I find most lefties are a tad smarter than average)

You could say, "Here, if you want that program, touch this tile." (touches tile)
"Now you do it."
It would certainly be easier for a user to follow your finger.

If your comment is strictly in regards to small devices, I agree. But monitors are often out of reach, especially when using multiple ones. Even if they are in reach, you're looking at some serious repetitive stress problems. In Basic Training, one punishment was simply to hold your arms out for extended periods.

Where we keep our monitors today.

Maybe instead of standing up vertically at the back of our desks, they should be closer to us and at an angle more parallel to the surface of the desk - you know, in the kind of orientation you hold a textbook when reading it... at about desk-height, with the top of the book angled a little bit higher than the back of the book. The keyboard might be on a shelf beneath and just slightly in front of the monitor.

And then when people come to your desk, the desk surface would be clean, as opposed to having them sit on the opposite side of a wall of monitors.

Things are in a period of drastic change right now - and your argument against touch-screen desktop systems isn't very visionary. If touch is superior enough, maybe the paradigm for desktop PCs needs to evolve completely. The monitor on our desk is the artificial barrier that limits productivity - not our inability to hold our harms straight out for extended periods of time.

I can't help but think if people found it comfortable having monitors positioned anywhere other than directly in front and vertical, someone would have already positioned them at an alternate angle and position. Arranging them otherwise may even require semi-circular desks.

I'll admit I can't abide fingerprints on my screen; I'd spend more time cleaning it than using it. (Aw geez, would I have to turn the dumb thing off before cleaning to avoid the wiping being inpreted as input?) I also question the use in gaming, where your forearm may be obscuring a vital portion of the screen. That's a class of software that may require major overhauls, but I'm specualting as a non-gamer.

Is mostly a tradition. You had a keyboard, you had a CPU on your desk (a "desktop"), and your green screen CRT sat on top of it. The tower moved off the desk, and the monitor grew bigger. That is why the Horseless Carriage became a carriage without a horse before it became simply a "car". Someone said, "Hey, this thing goes faster, and goggles are a pain. Let's invent a WINDSHIELD. Someone went, going that fast at night is dangerous. Let's invent headlights. Someone went, Now we've got this big windshield in front of us, and it sucks getting wet. Let's put a roof over it. Someone else went, what if you had windows on all sides you could roll up. Someone else said, "steering with a stick is kind of awkward... let's use a WHEEL"... The forum started to follow the function.

It certainly isn't ergonomics.

I bet technology itself plays into it. With CRTs, it wasn't a practical viewing angle. You had the big old flyback transistor sticking out of the back of the CRT... making it go downward would have lifted the CRT from the desk awkwardly compared to the face of the screen. When we moved to LCD, the problem was initially viewing angle. By the time we got those both figured out, *custom* was so ingrained that no one has *thought* about it yet... Here is another million dollar idea I'm giving away on Tech Republic.

It is also a matter of it will feel *weird* at first. I really think I'm onto something. All these companies making "All In One" touch-screen desktop units that haven't caught on... make the monitor tilt radically from the bottom toward the user, raise it just a bit, give it good viewing at that angle, and have the keyboard on a tray that slides out a little but mostly has your hands *under* the display. I can imagine it right now, and it would be *awesome* sauce... *especially* as touch-screen.

When you go into a library and they've got a big, unmovable book that sits on a pedastal, what kind of orientation is it in? When you lay out a cookbook in the kitchen, or you're transcribing papers onto your screen, what orientation are they in?

Basically the one I am describing. A little elevated at the top, with the end nearer to you and closer to the working surface, on some sort of stand designed just for this purpose. "Propped up". Most ATMs or other touch Kiosks, is the panel FLAT and facing you, or slightly inclined? When use the automated ticket kiosk at the movie theater?

The problem isn't that touch-screen is uncomfortable on a desktop - it is that a desktop is poorly oriented for a touch experience.

Huh? Did I just fix that problem? I think I did. I am so much wasted talent and potential. I should be designing things for Apple, not managing unruly IT workers and writing Tech Blogs.

I'm not sure about putting the keyboard under the leading edge of the monitor. Most people I know look at the keyboard while using it. This may change as schools put more emphasis on teaching keyboarding but I doubt many 'Millennials' can touch type. I know few Boomers and Xers can.

I hear you on fat reference books and kiosks, but few people use those eight hours a day.

I don't see it quite *under* the display, just recessed enough under it that you would be able to see it the keys but it would minimize the space between the keyboard and the display - because reaching OUT and forward is part of the problem. You want the display as close to you as possible, like a book - so you can reach it with your arms bent at the elbows - if that makes sense.

Maybe make the bottom of the bezel on the display clear, so you could see through that part - figure a bezel is going to be an inch or more thick... you could make that less of an obstacle.

Most keyboard trays that slide under the work area are designed to facilitate this kind of thing already, so you can have a book or papers laid out on the workspace, the monitor upright at the back of the desk, and the keyboard is on a tray slight recessed under the workspace. This will probably get me flagged for SPAM, but check out this link:

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Computer-Workstation-with-Storage/dp/B003FSTNAM/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1354756786&sr=8-5&keywords=workstation+desk

Those designs work GREAT...

I spend most of my time with my hands on the keyboard. If I had a touch screen, I would angle it differently than a traditional monitor and use my fingers to slide screens, choose tiles, and draw with a stylus. That's about 15% of what I do as far as computer input. The other 85% is keyboarding.
(I am having a real feeling of Deja vu here. We discussed this before.)

@myangeldust, your post has been removed because it was offensive.

You are entitled ti your opinions. You are entitled to express those opinions. You are entitled to disagree with the opinions of others.

You are NOT entitled to attack others because you disagree with their opinions.

What Microsoft used to call their Surface Project where the desk was the monitor and input device and everything was built into the desk.

That would work with Touch Screen though to be perfectly honest just Touch isn't enough we need to make sure that the Monitors used in things like that also have some way to separate the different users and not just rely on being touched.

When you look at something like that used to control some device it needs more than what Touch by itself can supply. Imagine a Computer Input/Display device in say a Nuclear Power Station being able to accept any input that was put in through the Touch Screen.

Way too dangerous and the chances of something going wrong because the wrong person used it or some other reason are way too high.

At least with a Keyboard and Conventional display a Password is better but when you move the Control Elements into the Desk itself you need much more than just touch.

However just using a conventional type Monitor as a Touch Screen in a Desktop for business is going to fail the Occupational Health & Safety Test every time.

Col

If changing the angle of a monitor to accomodate touch input was not ergonomically sound then the OSHA should be coming down on drafting tables.
The ideal set up for me would be a touch screen with a stylus and traditional keyboard. The screen would be at an adjustable angle of between 30 and 45 degrees directly in front of a standard pull out from under the monitor keyboard. My second and third monitors would be on adjustable arms that I could pull in or push back as needed. (I can dream. Can't I?) It's actually a similar configuration to what I have now (minus the touch and the drafting table style monitor).
I don't see this set up being harmful or ergonomically unsound.

Doesn't anybody remember Tron?

I honestly think that's what Microsoft is aiming for: the display and keyboard embedded in the touch-enabled desktop. It would truly suck for touch-typists, who would lose all feedback, tactile or otherwise, but it would be great for the hunt-and-peck typists.

they take up screen real estate.
Who wants 1/4 to 1/3 of the screen taken up by a virtual keyboard?

what I said was

However just using a conventional type Monitor as a Touch Screen in a Desktop for business is going to fail the Occupational Health & Safety Test every time.

The point being Conventional Monitors can not currently be placed in such a position and that is why they will fail Occupational Health & Safety.

I'm not implying that at some time in the future that things will not be different but now it's a different story.

As for not liking Keyboards on Monitors I'm very much the same but and it's a Big But if you are talking up Touch Screen UI's then you have to accept that they are designed and work at their best on Touch Screens and besides the current obvious things like dirty Screens that need constant cleaning so that they are readable and them currently being at the wrong orientation they will eventually come and be the sole and considered Best Input method till Unique Speech Recognition or something better comes along to replace the keyboard.

As a Control Device a Touch Screen may not actually require a QWERTY style keyboard and just be a series of Tiles to press to do something. Just like Metro as it was called was you pressed that Tile to open that App and this other tile to open that App. To go all Star Trek on you you could press that Tile to Arm the Phasers and this Tile to fire them.

However in reality it's more likely to be on something that produces a series of predefined objects from a 3D printer or the like when we first see things like that as the Input Devices for things.

I also am not a great Fan of Virtual Keyboards but they are endless better than the small keyboards that used to be available on the Older Generation Smart Phones which are what prevented me from ever being interested in them. Something like the Apple iPhone or the Nasty Samsung Galaxy which Apple finds so reprehensible are a different kettle of fish and if I really needed Internet while being Mobile I would get one. Currently I only need a phone to allow clients to ring me when I'm out and occasionally make a phone call when something goes wrong. Maybe latter I could justify a Smart Phone but currently I'm flat out running up a $30.00 Phone Bill over a 6 month period so I really don't have any use for one.

Besides while I do carry at least 1 NB with me when I'm out at clients, as they all have an Internet Connection if absolutely necessary I can connect one of my NB's through their ISP and get what is required but even that doesn't happen often. Mostly only when they ask for a Solid Price on some hardware and that to be perfectly honest isn't that often.

I do however have very Fat Fingers and without using a Stylus I find it impossible to use the older generation Smart Phones.

OK I've now officially forgotten what it was I was replying to as it's getting difficult to go back up a level and not being able to read the post. So I hope this makes some sort of sense, I'm sure that I've missed something though.

Col

"...a Touch Screen may not actually require a QWERTY style keyboard..."

The introduction of touch keyboards might have been a great opportunity to switch to the Dvorak keyboard. It's probably too late for that now.

You said, "However just using a conventional type Monitor as a Touch Screen in a Desktop for business is going to fail the Occupational Health & Safety Test every time."

I agree. Using a touch screen monitor in the conventional 90 degree angle with respect to the desktop could put a strain a user's arms and shoulders.
BUT
A touch screen monitor should inspire us to use it in new ways. Maybe the conventional orientation is wrong for a touch screen.
Using a touch screen monitor closer to the keyboard and at a 30 - 40 degree angle with respect to the desktop would be quite confortable. I also think it would also be easier to use for people who are not touch typists as the monitor would be much closer to the keyboard and at a more complementary angle.
For example: The Acer T232HL is a ten point touch screen monitor that can be adjusted to 178 degrees.
If it only accepted stylus input. (sigh)

We're already seeing them announced for smart-phones. Maybe our monitors will run horizontal to the desk top then transition into a 90 degree vertical display at the back seamlessly in the near future. Think of a skateboard half-pipe - or even a half bowl. Interfaces and displays are going to get revolutionarily different in the next 20 years. I'm sure of it.

I don't want to touch my screen, I hate finger prints on my screen.

Now if the screen was on a touch pad, or a mouse pad, that always showed the metro tiles screen so you always had 1 press access to applications, that would be sweet.
I would love it if it were by my hand, always displayed so I could quickly tap applications. The tiles would never disappear, the win32 apps would show on another screen, I could then fire off multiple programs in quick succession.

I can't really help you use a touch screen without touching it.
Keep your hands clean and dry? Wear e-tip gloves? Get one that accepts stylus input.

You raise an interesting idea with the touchpad with tiles display. This could be achieved with a Windows 8 tablet or tablet convertible. Lay it flat on your table, connect keyboard and a secondary non-touch screen monitor to it. Use the tablet screen as a touch pad.
The only problem I see is, depending on what you want to do, the Windows 8 tablet may be underpowered and / or overpriced.

Personally, I would just lay off the meatball subs and cheetos while I was working on the touch screen and keep a micro fiber cloth handy to occassionally wipe the screen.

I can't abide fingerprints on my screen.

My skin is so oily i leave cheekprints on Blackberrys when I'm configuring them for our BES. I make a point to clean them before I distribute them, but after dialing the activation number I can't read through my own secretions.

Though Dirty screens do drive me crazy personably, but what I do worry about is what is going to happen to these screens when they are effectively lying on the desktop and the End Users drop their Coffee or Coke onto them as they have to drink while working. I'm also not so sure what will happen to the crumbs that get dropped onto the screens from the food that they eat as well.

Old habits die hard and I'm parotid about seeing liquards and food around current generation NB's let alone when the Touch Screen is nearly horizontal on the desk.

However on the finger print thing I'm constantly asked how to prevent the Cel Phones screens getting covered with finger prints by their users and I suppose when Tablets get more commonly used I'll be asked the same thing.

Col

Actually, I am thinking of one system

Pretend your using a desktop, the desktop monitors always show the desktop and win32 apps. Metro apps are possible but not by default, not while the device is plugged in.
A device that is essentially a thin screen, is attached via USB and sits next to your mouse, (or under it, if it can). This screen always displays the metro tiles and metro apps and win32 app launchers(as they show in the same list).
So this would be like having the start menu always open. You could tap the program you want, and if it is a metro app, it launches on that screen (unless otherwise configured) and if its win32, it launches the program on your desktop monitors.

This solves the inefficiency of the new start screen when using a mouse. And its not a big deal to arch my head and use a touch screen for a moment to launch a program.
Bonus points if it can function like a giant laptop touch pad or as a drawing pad to draw into a win32 app. Where moving my finger on the screen, moves my mouse pointer on the desktop. (again, for drawing, or people that hate mice and like touch pads)