Discussion on:

You don't really need a Start Menu in Windows 8

it would have never occurred to me to search for 'Ado'. Maybe that's another reason I'm having trouble accepting this 'Search for everything' approach; apparently my search skills aren't very good.

(I could not resist that.)
I shorten the search terms in my posted examples to show you how quickly you can find what you are looking for in the Windows 8 Start Menu.
If you try using search on the Windows 8 Start Menu, you will find that all Windows 8 needs are the fewest unique characters to find what you are looking for. As soon as you start entering letters, search narrows its focus.
For example: If I am searching for MS Word,
1. "W" gives me 28 hits
2. "Wo" gives me 3 (Word, WordPad, SharePoint Workspace)
3. "Word" gives me two hits
I could stop at step 2 and just select Word. "Wo" + enter
So if you want to find an Adobe product, it seems obvious that you would start typing "Adobe". By the time you get to "Ado" all I will see on my screen are Adobe hits. Select the Adobe program you want and run it.

I understood the 'minimum number of characters' principle, but wouldn't have occurred to me to search for 'Adobe' either I would have started by searching for the application name, and had the same memory issues as brian with the names of less-frequently used programs. But you've seen my previously expressed issues regarding search as an application starter.

I was answering a specific question from Brian.
"If I want to scan the Adobe Master Collection folder to see if there's a utility that does what I need, I now have to do it through windows explorer."
I was saying that you do not need Windows Explorer to find all Adobe programs.
I still don't know how Start > Programs > would be any better when you don't even know the name of the program you are looking for.

I would have started with an internet search. "Adobe utility for..."

"I still don't know how Start > Programs > would be any better when you don't even know the name of the program you are looking for."

It's not that we don't -know- the name, it's that we can't -remember- it. If we could see a list of them, it would jog our memory.

But yes, the same could be said of trolling through screenload of tiles.

When you run search in Windows 8, the icons of possible matches are quite small. They are not tiles.
At 1280 X 800, I can see 40 icons on my laptop Metro-style search screen. You have to really not know what you are looking to exceed 40 icons.
You have even more room for icons if you run search from File Explorer on the desktop.

Pressing 'F1' in W8 Metro does nothing. So much for all the keystrokes working; what I consider one of the most fundamental is gone. I can't read the manual if MS has taken away their most preached method of opening it. Danged if I could find a 'Help' charm, tile, menu option, or other shortcut, but maybe I missed it in the 'All Apps' quagmire.

Searching for 'help' yields results (assuming someone told you how to do that) but they open in ... Classic desktop, where incidentally the F1 does work.

come on now...You only knew about F1 because I told you about it some months ago.

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I admit its absence, along with the lack of any immediately obvious Help resources, came as a massive disappointment. That has colored my overall impression perhaps more than warranted, perhaps even more than the Start Menu issue. This lack of access to a manual lead to many initial bad experiences. I expected certain behaviors based on previous Windows experience, and didn't understand many others that were not previously present. I smacked F1 as accustomed, it did nothing, and I felt I was left to wander through the new landscape with no onboard guidance. It's left a bad taste in my mouth since the Developer beta, a taste that's grown stronger as it remained missing in subsequent releases.

As Donovan has pointed out, my lack of use of mobile devices may resulted in my still expecting to see obvious 'Help' buttons and links. Even in W7 it is still foreign to me to type 'in space', outside of a box or field clearly intended for that purpose. Habit has me still clicking on the 'Run' link.

Actually, I knew... I just never use it... I'd go to the help in the pull down menu... but I'd probably go to Google first. Real "online" help is almost always superior to the online help stored locally with an app, in my experience.

I didn't know it was gone in Metro. Is it gone in Classic? Or does it still work as expected there? So an app that runs in the modern-ui, f1 does nothing... but the same app in classic, F1 still brings up help, right?

In Classic, F1 will still bring up Windows help.

I usually start with the local help; it usually saves me a search and wading through results. If I can't find an answer there, then I turn to Google.

I can't say beyond that. I'm in an SCCM class this week, without access to the W8 system I built at work last week. I can't speak to Metro apps; none of the default ones interested me. Most of my experience with them was 'open, see that it requires a Live account, close, delete tile'. I also haven't had time yet to load any 'conventional' applications - Office, FF, etc.

"Posting text after using 'NT' in the Subject line! 10 yards and loss of post!"

[picks up yellow flag, paces off yardage, slaps JJ on wrist]

where you were complaining about having difficulty navigating and I said that I assumed that the final release would be complemented with some navigation instruction when you installed Win 8 (it does) and free online tutorials just as previous versions did (it does).
Then I said, "Besides there's always the F1 key for help." and you and some others confessed to not knowing about the F1 key. It has been around for a long time.
dcolbert - F1 did work in Metro in the preview but there wasn't much content. I am surprised they omitted it in the final release.

I'm getting old and forgetful, but I've used it regularly for years. I actually prefer printed manuals, but they're getting harder to find and expensive. I can't take a .PDF to lunch.

There is this new fangled device called a Kindle...

If you don't like that, we've got these things called *tablets*. They're like Kindles, only more powerful. You can even get them with this thing called Windows 8...

And instead of taking just ONE technical manual with you to lunch, you could take a whole *library*.

It could shockingly, change the way you do *all* kinds of things, allow you to do things you never could do before, and otherwise be a magic and revolutionary change in your daily routine.

And *then* you can have your lunch and read it, too.

First and foremeost, e-readers cost more money than I'm willing to spend. (Tablets are way the heck out of my price range, even ignoring the monthly connectivity charges.)

Second, I'd have to buy two if I wanted to use if for personal, non-professional reasons. My father and I have identical tastes in recreational reading, swapping books regularly.

Third, for some reason I have difficulty processing information when reading large blocks of text on a screen. I have a problem keeping my attention focused, but I haven't figured out why. I keep rereading the same paragraphs repeatedly, as if I was tired. (This problem may be limited to reading text on a standard monitor; I might not have it on a dedicated e-reader. Lend me one and I'll see.)

All this good life-changing stuff comes with a price tag. So far I haven't seen any benefits worth spending the money. But I've got a work around. There are these new-fangled devices called 'printers'. They convert the .PDF into a format that doesn't require power, and can be cheaply regenerated if you slop salsa on it.

that can be arranged. I won a Kindle DX that was cracked open by Bill Detwiler at the TRLive event previous to this year's gathering. I took it home and *loved* it. The eInk is a whole different ballgame than reading on an LCD. Read a ton of books on it, then showed my wife - and haven't been able to get a minute of time alone with it since. But I think Santa is going to bring her a Kindle PaperWhite for Christmas so she can read in bed without the lights on...

So... a few things...

1: I never saw the advantage of eInk until I used it.
2: My wife who had no interest before using one won't let it out of her sight now.
3: I'll probably have one available for demo soon - but I want it back.

... press the Windows key, type Help, and press [Enter]

Bingo

But that never would have occurred to me without assistance. Help systems are woefully underused even without remove acclimated access methods.

See my point. F1 is not intuitive to bring up help. You had to LEARN it somewhere. Either by reading about it or being told by someone who knew.

How is this different? Because they did it one way, they need to do it that way forever?

but I thought that was knowledge I'd already learned. I didn't expect MS to drop a shortcut they've preached since W3; my mistake. This is why I earlier posted that I'm better off approaching W8 from scratch, so I won't expect it to respond in ways I'm accustomed to.

Or some other modifier key + F1.

Just to make sure it's impossible to enter on a tablet. (I guess)

I'm away from my test W8 system this week.

Edited - See Greg's 'Oh yea' post below.

And it brought up a help screen.

I'm thinking you need to try something other than the beta and pre-release candidates before you stick to your conclusion, Palmie.

but on the Start screen itself. I wasn't looking for help on how to use IE; I was looking for help on how to use Windows itself.

And I'm playing with the Pro RTM, as downloaded from MS. This week I'll overwrite it as we have Enterprise media available.

typing "help" on the Start Screen calls up Help and Support.
I agree that Microsoft should activate the F1 key though.

Not to give the ancients in here a heart attack, but perhaps it's time the industry rename the F1 key the "Help" key. Wha?! Hey, if that's all it was meant to do in any application then it should be labeled appropriately.

Maybe that's where I picked it up in 1995.

Lotus, WordPerfect, Harvard Graphics; most DOS and early W3 apps had them. They were cardboard strips that fit around the row of function keys, or rested on the open keyboard space above the F keys. (Keyboards use to have substantial space between the F keys and the trailing edge, as much as an inch and a half.) The templates indicated what each key did in that application. The most complicated ones had several rows - what the key did by itself, what it did when combined with ALT, with CTRL, etc. When you switched programs, you switched templates.

You used to be able to order blank keys and label your own. They may still be out there; I haven't had a reason to shop for them in years.

... you can press [Windows]+[F1]

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Sorry, Windows users DON'T READ MANUALS. No one does. Sorry. If I can't figure it out without that, I'm screwed. If I'm on a Linux board and they tell me that, I know I'm on the wrong board, too.

Many people will read the on computer and supplemental online help provided by software vendors.
Type "Help" on the Metro Start Menu.
Press F1 on the desktop.

I want to know how to customize a single tile, not all of them whole sale.

So

How do I change the pictographic representation of a win32 application in the metro start menu? Right now nearly all my win32 apps are getting a generic white window floating in the corner of a blank metro tile (I assume because they are network applications). Some get the real icon but still just the icon floating in the corner instead of displaying the high res version of the icon as the tile itself.
How do I change this? And can I change it in an installation routine? (what code/API do I need to do that?)

Hack the Windows 8 Metro Start Screen Tiles, Icons, and Pictures.
http://www.tech-recipes .com/rx/22405/hack-windows-8-metro-start-screen-tiles-icons/

I added a space between recipes and "dot" com because my post disappears when I add links. You'll have to remove it. Sorry.

All those icons on the taskbar. Just as tacky as the ones on the desktop. The Start screen is an improvement over the Start button/menu, hands down. The fact no one ever created a third party version for XP, Vista, and 7 simply proves that most programmers are as innovative as those they criticize for a lack of innovation. Some will call that screen "messy" but it's like most drawers in our non-IKEA homes. The best part is that you can arrange and rearrange it as you see fit, get to what you need, and CLOSE it.

I say put a Windows Key on everything: the keyboard, the LCD, the mouse, etc.

What do you find superior in the Start screen vs. the Start menu?

If icons on taskbars and desktops are tacky, why aren't tiles on the Start screen? A desktop full of icons isn't the way I choose to start programs, but I don't understand how it differs from a Start menu full of tiles esthetically.

The Start screen floats OVER the other apps and can scroll to show more tiles.
Placing icons on the desktop as many people do forces one to minimize open apps. It also can't scroll to accomodate more so it's limited by LCD size.

I was going to answer the "tacky" question but your arguments so far tell me my response will be moot. We get it, your current machine will be your last. You know if you don't like Windows 8 you don't have to upgrade. Seriously, you made the same argument against Windows 7.

Why is a desktop covered in shortcuts tacky but dozens of Start screen tiles are not? What's the difference?

You weren't a member here when W7 was rolled out, so I'd be interested in how you know my positions on it. I installed W7 within a month of its release, although we waited until the first SP to deploy it beyond the department. I loaded Vista within a month of release, although we never deployed it. I didn't see anything wrong with it, but it W7 was out fairly quickly and V never fit within our hardware refresh schedule.

My current home machine may be my last for a while, but work is another matter.

They screamed bloody murder when I switched them from Windows 2000 to XP. They repeated that when I switched them Windows 7. They had all kinds of reasons. I said the old machines are obsolete and slow. I said there's so many things each new OS can do that the old one cannot. I said the departments whose IT guy keeps them behind has to work twice as hard to keep them talking to the world at large. My kung fu is better than theirs. Now they kneel before Zod! (Not really, they still treat me like a busboy.)

My supervisor wanted to keep Lotus 123 and WordPro. He believed he learned it inside out (wrong). He said it worked better than Office (wrong). I said it wasn't compatible with 7. I said he was singlehandely being a pain in the neck in a company of 10,000 Office users who had to install a conversion plug-in to read his documents. So I could care less about people and their crying. They will change and they have.

I will skip upgrading current machines to 8 for the sake of our budget. But any new machines purchased will have 8 and the "unlucky" bastards who get assigned these will become the MASTERS OF THE OFFICE. (So I will definitely get one, he-he.)

I still don't get how a desktop crowded with shortcuts is tacky, but a Start screen full of icons isn't.

Now I'm additionally puzzled by another item. You say your W8 users are going to be masters of the office. Did installing W7 four years ago make anyone the master of the office? Doesn't their ability to work with applications make them masters more than an OS?

Now get the HELL off my lawn

"I've used F1 all my !@#!@#( life... it has always worked fine, now they tell me I gotta enter the world HELP in the search box? Well I say they can @!#!@# my @!#!@#!, those @!#!@# hippies always think they've got ideas to make things better... well, what the !@#!@# is wrong with doing things the way they've always been done, dang-nabit! Now hand me my walker. I'm getting the !@#!@ outta here! And Buick makes a !@#@!# fine car. None of that German or Japanese !@#!@# for me..."

And where's my Kodak Imaging? Damn thing won't run Norton Commander either. AND WHERE'S MY REVERSI???

Seriously, did my quick skim miss the games in W8? Are there none installed by default? Not even Solitaire? I don't miss them but our standard configuration includes removing them. If they aren't there, then I don't have to worry about taking them out of our hard drive 'gold image'. On the other hand, we'll have to learn how to block installing them.

The whole games thing in Win8 really pisses me off. You can play an ad-driven version of solitaire or buy a real non ad-driven one. I didn't buy an OS so MS could run ads on my damn computer. Here's a fix: http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/33214-How-to-use-Microsoft-Games-from-Windows-7-in-Windows-8