Discussion on:

You don't really need a Start Menu in Windows 8

that called up a dialog box that said, "Solitaire? Shouldn't you be working?"
with Yes & No buttons

Clicking either button closed the dialog box and sent them back to the desktop.
That was part of our gold image for several years.

and open a script that formats an e-mail to HR with subject, "I'm trying to play games (again)." (without actually sending it).

"Every mine you detonate will result in a random change in the data storage area of your computer...don't miss."

Our corporate gold image just removes the games. Doesn't bother me. That's why I have Tetris on the phone...

I recently had to setup a notebook with 8 for a user, without a touch screen it seems a laboriouse process not to mention the future shock... i ended up using this nice little free program and it works great
http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/
user was happy... this made me happy

Its about the whole new concept, they had a good thing with the previous desing, IOS hasnt changed its GUI since the 80's and it worked for MAC users cause they want continuity. But anyway Microsoft like the PC will end up in memories in about 5 years

A review of Windows 8 from someone who has actually used the product and understands it!I've read so many people passing judgment on this product who obviously had only a passing familiarity with it. But that's the way it is in the press so often - somebody says something that gets traction and everyone else piles on.

As described in the article, if you take the time to analyze the process of using the start menu, and how many mouse moves and clicks it takes to search for and launch and application, you'll quickly find out that you can accomplish the same process much quicker with W8.

Although you can do the many of the same tasks on both, desk top/lap top computers are not interchangeable with tablets. Apple understands this and uses two different operating systems. Microsoft in its desperate attempt to compete with Apple doesn't. Apple wins!

Ok, here's an iPad challenge for you.
Using only your iPad and no third party utilities like gotomypc or citrix receiver, log on to a corporate domain, check out a Word document from SharePoint, make some edits with tracked changes on, and check the document back into SharePoint.
This is what my users do all day.
A Windows 8 tablet can easily do this the same way my folks are used to on a Windows desktop.
I'm not saying that iPads don't have a place in the corporate world but you have to make adjustments to it and your network to get it even close to what a Windows 8 tablet can do out of the box.

The MacOS is too bloated for smaller devices. It is also not touchscreen friendly. So they developed a completely different OS for their small devices. iOS isn't MacOS lite. So does it make sense for the company to split its products by operating system that can only use iTunes to communicate between them? Why would you not attempt to unite the full computers and halflings under an interconnected operating system? Apple wins. Apple-philes lose.

Otherwise they wouldn't have done it.

Why would I attempt to stuff all the features of a desktop OS onto a smart phone? Memory ain't THAT cheap!

that MS would make a bold move and forget backward compatibility with Win8. Then we could finally get away with a smaller/simpler OS footprint. Maybe they did that with Win 8 RT - I don't know.

Roll out Metro on 64-bit only and cut the strings. That would have been easier for me to accept than this bastardized mashup.

Side note: that may be the first time I've had reason to seriously use the word 'mashup'.

They DID do this with RT. And it isn't selling yet... because Windows users need a transitionary platform to get them off Windows Classic and into a new approach.

Which is what happened with DOS to Win 3.11, froom Win 3.11 to W95/98, Win 95/98 to W2k/XP...

Seriously... in each case, a significant change in the underlying technology and approach... and it was a gradual change.

You're talking about just ripping off the band-aid. I'm saying that Microsoft never does it that way.

Of course that going a bit far for mobile platforms; but why not just let virtual technology take care of backward compatibility. Maybe the new tech MS is using to replace XP Mode is doing this already?

Is ALSO a "mashup." what a horrible mess. Won't use it, won't have it, can't live with it. The w*fe has one, can't stand it. She want's me to fix the bluescreens on it, I told her figure it out herself. Took weeks, Horrible OS. It was that or wipe it, put Linux or an old copy of XP on (the latter she would have readily agreed to, didn't have a copy lying around though.)
Now she "loves it" as she yet again cusses at it, for being so horrible. Nothing new here.

in my corporate domain on a Lenovo X201.

Never had a BSOD. My old T61p used to BSOD about twice a week on XP 32 bit.

Just update the drivers. 90% of the time, it is video drivers causing the problem.

I see a lot of comments supporting Win 8 and a lot that don't.
I've been playing with a new Win8 PC for a couple of days now and, as an IT person, I can see some interesting features from a consumer context but not from a business point of view. I absolutely will not be considering upgrading our environment to it. I know I'm not alone in thinking this OS is great for touch screen devices but for a business PC user it doesn't provide enough benefits to come close to offsetting the learning curve users will have to go through to become proficient at it. If I've learned anything over the years, users do not like change and yes, we all have to move on eventually, like it or not, but as far as I'm concerned this was a big mistake by MS. The new interface, in a business context, is not useful or beneficial in any discernible way. I find it takes longer to navigate for some things, it's unintuitive (taking away the X in the corner of windows for closing them is annoying!), cluttered and inefficient. I know you can customize the start screen and hit the Windows key and start typing to search for the app you want to launch, etc. and so on. But I have no interest in trying to convince the executives and a lot of other folks that this is a good thing - which it isn't from a productivity point of view. I also realize you can still get to the old Desktop that we all know and love but it's crippled, I know the Start button/menu can be added with 3rd party freeware as well as other available addons to enhance functionality but why MS chose to go down this path for the desktop machine is misguided. I can appreciate their aim to have one common interface so that the rising device market will mesh with the PC experience but I don't think it will work - one size does NOT fit all. I think this is another Vista in the making in that it will be so unpopular for business users that it will be skipped altogether much as Vista was. If MS were to add the option to switch the interface to a full function Win7 style desktop it may save the day for this new OS but otherwise I can see this going down in flames in the business world.

When you get home do you set your car keys on a table or place them in a drawer with other keys? The latter means you'll be hunting in a drawer on your way out the door. Even if you reserve a corner of that drawer for your car keys. The former means you will see your keys all the time and within quick reach. You can make things go faster if your keys hang from a series of hooks on the wall between you and the door. Now they're not in your way but totally accessible.

So why would you go hunting through some pull-up menu for your applications when you can simply make them appear with the push of one button?

At the top is the shortcut for my car key. Next is the one for my house key. This is the one for my mistress's apartment key. They're arranged on my menu to my preference, just like you've arrange tiles on your Start screen. Like the W8 Start screen, the W7 Start Menu appear with the push of one button; indeed, it's the exact same 'Windows' button.

For some, the Start Menu has the comfort of familiarity (me included), but that doesn't make it better. But to my untrained eye, both appear to have the same feature set.

I keep all my keys on one key ring, by the way.

I might want to put each in its own compartment with a label so I can tell them apart.

one compartment of keys for Excel files, and another for Word files?

Finally got enough of a break to move my HP Compaq L2105 touch screen 21" monitor to my Windows 8 Pro test PC.

Now, Palmie is right - the vertical position of the monitor directly in front and slightly elevated to the viewer is not comfortable for a LOT of touch screen activity. It would be *much* better if the monitor swiveled down and towards the user at an angle more horizontal to the surface of the workspace/desk. But - touch-screen is nice on Windows 8, and really enhances the experience in the typical mobile-style apps that are best suited to touch-screen. Browsing galleries, scrolling through a web-page, changing pages, all of those functions are well suited to a touch-screen and it is far more intuitive to do it that way than to do it with a mouse. The mouse is an artificial abstraction layer that simulates your virtual hand through an on-screen pointer on a virtual on-screen DESKtop. Right? That is the whole thing... a DESKTOP is called this because it simulates your physical workplace, and the mouse is the device that controls a simulated version of your HAND that manipulates items on that desktop.

Doesn't it make more sense to make that simulation MORE accurate? That is what this moves toward - and it does a great job of doing it.

There are some problems but overall, the touch experience is good. Here is the thing, I bought the touch-screen monitor *months* ago, and haven't been using the touch features of it at all with Windows 7. With Windows 8, there is a compelling reason to actually use the touch screen.

You'll need to rest your Arms in the right position to use it as a Touch Device. Unlike Keyboards the problems with a Touch Screen in the Standard Desktop Position which is all we can do at the moment will do far worse than produce Carpel Tunnel Syndrome.

The next thing you need to understand is that any Touch Screen is just the beginning of moving away from the Keyboard and will really not be complete till we have Touch Enabled 3D Monitors which will allow you to touch different layers/depths of the display.

Strange thing is that you have come to exactly the same conclusion as I did. 8 Is great on Touch Screen Devices and a pain on Desktops which really currently do not support Touch Screens all that well. M$ should have retained the Start Menu for Desktop/NB computers till there are suitable display devices available for them that best utilize touch technology.

Col

That the OS drives hardware innovation, as opposed to waiting for hardware to support the direction the OS wants to go in.

Before Windows, machines didn't come with Mice. It was awhile after Windows had been out before it was just assumed that any new workstation included a mouse in the box. Now it is unthinkable that you would buy a new PC and it wouldn't come with one.

It's also true that no matter what the OS shouldn't cause injury to the End User.

Bad placement of things or worse still the inability to actually use any device in a safe manner is something no business will accept either. Causing Injury to workers is not productive or for that matter in the companies best interest.

Col

for the dramatic rise in RSI's including carpal-tunnel syndrome.

This is why corporations have spent billions on office ergonomics since the early 90s when the impact of poorly designed devices began to become appearent.

The keyboard and mouse have resulted in a growth industry for wrist-braces... and more companies than not continue to deploy this ancient I/O method without any ergonomic study. Monitors are too low or too high, desks are not ideally matched to chairs... There are no wrist pads at the bottom of keyboards.

Come on... tell me another story.

Breaking workers is not going to stop business from adopting a new technology if it delivers net efficiency gains. The benefits in increased productivity of the mouse/keyboard outweigh the payments to people who end up with repetitive stress injuries from using them - so business keeps deploying these solutions (while also trying to develop solutions to mitigate their negative impacts).

The same thing will apply with touch-screen.

Computer related RSI has been a potential problem since W3 and the first mice, if not earlier. I've had several occasions where I notice a user looking 'downhill' at a monitor that's positioned too low. A week after adjusting it, they often comment that their neck or back pain is reduced or gone.

Much as I love to find things to criticize in W8, a poorly arrange workstation is going to be a problem regardless of OS or even activity.

I'd think a monitor placed TOO HIGH would be a problem. A monitor placed at hand height would be fine. If touch screens have their way, that's where the monitor will BE, right?

Both too high and too low are problems, they just aggravate different muscles. The standard I've read says the top of the monitor should at eye level.

There's another branch of this discussion where we've kicked around the notion that touch screens may require completely rethinking workspace arrangements, including screen height and angle. It's similar how to the transition from typewriters and adding machines to keyboards and mice required altering desktop heights, adding dropped keyboard shelves, mousing space, and wrist restes, etc. Workplace ergonomics are evolving as the tools change. One reason they lag behind is that the technologies are appearing, changing, and even disappearing (netbooks) almost too fast to adapt to.

So you basically just hang around here until you find someone who takes a shine to Windows 8 (anything new, really) and then counter them with the "it's not the same, it's different" rant? But you never make a case in your favor unless you think "familiarity" is a reason for not doing anything. So all your man-hours (your username does show up an inordinate amount of times at TR) are simply wasted. Unless you actually believe saying it will reverse progress. When do you get out of the house? Go play some golf or something. The world isn't going to stop because you're afraid of the future. Golf. That's where old people should limit themselves to. Otherwise, they're out starting new wars (John McCain) to kill the young'uns.

You could probably knock out some sort of stand with a couple of 2" x 4"s and a piece of corner molding as a front rest. Make the back legs longer than you think you'll need initially; you can always trim them a little at a time until you get a comfortable angle.

I don't expect any royalties.

I hadn't even thought about how I had to use an old manual typewriter where you literally had to pound on the keys; and all the other office machines we had were from the stone age. We didn't get any "ergo" injuries from those days either.

Hell - maybe there is a place for touch - especially if the monitor is flat on the desk, just like the paperwork I used to sweat over when I was in the Army, back in the day.

You REMF!

I was in the rear for a while; but my weapons knowledge ended up getting me into so many OPFOR missions, that I busted my butt a lot! ROFLOL!

"Better OPFOR than MOPP-4!"

Those too!

that can be angled from 0 to 90 degrees with respect to the table surface.
Check out what Acer and Dell have to offer.
I think setting the touch screen at 30 degrees, with a keyboard that slides underneath and placing one or two additional non-touch monitors on adjustable arms would be a very nice set up.
The only thing holding me back from buying a touch screen is I have not found one with good stylus input.

There goes my million dollar patent.

...is just the way I had imagined using Windows 8 on a desktop!

This page has nice images and a nice video demonstration of how the monitor works with Windows 8.

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19&sku=320-9517&~ck=baynoteSearch&baynote_bnrank=1&baynote_irrank=0

Still, $650 is pretty steep for a monitor. A ViewSonic TD2220 touch monitor for $300 and something like a book stand would be easier to swallow - http://www.viewsonic.com/us/td2220.html

You could modify or construct something like this to hold a monitor
http://www.efurnitureshowroom.com/book-stand-cedar-delite-rcfns265x360-lc-prod-34104.html

too bad my buddy had such bad luck with Dells! I think he would like that model!!!

http://us.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/series/monitor-touch3d

Like I said, you can try it out at Best Buy.

The computer didn't cost me that much.

with the desktop powered PC built in, isn't cheaper?

If I was planning on installing W8, either at home or at work, I have hardware suitable to run it. I wouldn't need to replace a computer.