Discussion on:

You don't really need a Start Menu in Windows 8

Something that is on a precision track that could easily be adjusted from the layout I describe to any one of countless other configurations including a 90 degree angle just like a traditional monitor for use with a keyboard and mouse. The design of our workspace has to become more flexible - and that will be more empowering in the long run.

Envy 20" Touchsmart that has touchscreen, also included wireless keyboard and mouse (upgraded from USB "at no charge.")
Great idea, I suppose, but a couple problems, 1) for the price (around $650) you'd be better off getting a $300 desktop with MORE power, or a laptop with more power that was less clunky and weighed about 1/10 as much. 2) Screen was smeared, hardly usable, because people had TOUCHED IT, when they could simply have been using a mouse or keyboard. No stylus in evidence to alleviate that.
* Even the low end laptops run i-3's at a better speed than this dog, a 2.8GHz Pentium. Tried it out, figured out why there's a "Start screen" and you can't have anything else open.. It won't run more than either the start screen OR one or two applications. It spec's with "only" four gig memory, (my XP/Linux box runs just fine with half that.) I don't think that's optimal for 7 or 8.
Unfortunately, another fail for HP. They had things so right with the Touchpad/Slate projects then killed them. Even with my aversion to touchscreen, I probably would have wanted one, albeit the Slate a stylus (Windows 7) rather than the WebOS Touchpad.
I do think those projects kickstarted Win8 and the modern Surface, though, which ms fanboi's are drooling over (once the full version comes out.)
Sorry, HP, not for me, thank you.

I like to get my hands inside my desktop to add hardware.
Memory, Video Cards, HD, SSD, Power Supply, Cooling etc.
You can extend the useful life of your desktop if you can make your own modifications to it.
At $500, that Acer monitor costs about a third of what I spent on my current home desktop so I'm not balking at the price.

Logic board. The thing is garbage. It isn't worth fixing. It is basically an all-in-one design, more or less. There just isn't much to be done when one of these dies. The proprietary design makes it non-feasible to economically repair. I'd be better off putting the $200 toward a newer Mac Mini (or, better yet, toward a Yoga 13).

And I had upgraded the hard drive and memory, and that was a pain in the rear to do, also. Just the whole thing was a headache. It was an experiment. My key learning was, "don't buy Macs".

That's almost word for word what an HP tech said to me about AIOs. He was here a couple of weeks ago working on an Elitebook 8460p, and said he didn't know why HP had him working on those either. It took almost 75 minutes to replace the mobo, and this was the second call.

Are a tough call. Generally with a high quality laptop - the device is expensive enough that it is economically feasible to repair *if* you're willing to take on the labor *yourself* - which can be risky.

But closed designs like this - yeah, there are degrees of economic viability to repair. If I had a line on a known good used "pull" logic board for a MacMini for ~$50 - I'd repair the thing. But at nearly $200 from Apple, it doesn't make sense.

I haven't thrown it in the trash.

Here is the problem - you haven't spent enough time with Windows 8 to scratch the surface. Last night I shared a picture to my Facebook and G+ screens where I had a Browser opened and snapped to the left side of the Classic screen, a mail client opened and snapped to the right half of the Classic screen, and the screen split between the Classic and the Modern/Metro Start screen with a news app there in the far right hand of the display.

3 apps all running at the same time (plus other Modern UI apps in the background not displayed), and multiple classic windows open under the screens that were brought to the front. Everything you could do in traditional Windows 7 as far as multi-tasking multiple apps at once *plus* a Modern UI app. It isn't doing LESS than Windows 7. It is doing MORE. Somehow people are misunderstanding the (logical) limitations of the very specific Modern UI app environment/appspace as applying to the whole OS - when that simply isn't the case.

That is, people hear that you can only have two Modern UI apps tiled on the screen at once and they assume this is the limit of Windows 8. It isn't. In classic mode you can do everything you ever could, while ALSO having modern UI apps running TOO, all displayed at once. This isn't being able to do less. No matter how you cut it, this is being able to do MORE.

clearly have never tried Windows 8 or used it for a day.

I'm so much happier since I remembered the 'Ignore this member' feature, especially in the case of two participants in this discussion.

No, they aren't you or DC. Of course, that doesn't mean the obverse

OK, I'm wondering what manufacture's really mean when they say "multi-touch?"

The Dell S2340T page specifically mentions 10-point touch.

The ViewSonic TD2220 page doesn't specifically identify what they mean by multi-touch, but early reviewers call it a 2-point touch

The Acer T232HL/T272HL page doesn't specifically identify what they mean by multi-touch either.

The Microsoft Surface RT page identifies its multi-touch as being 5-point

Of course one would assume more is better, but what's your take on 10-/5-/2-point? Will it really matter much in Windows 8 for basic touch functionality?

Games and other advanced apps may require more than 2 unique points of touch data at a time. If you've got a 2 point touch interface, you're going to be out of luck, or possibly have to play or operate some sort of experience-crippled version.

For most apps, 2 point touch is sufficient. It'll give you pinch-to-zoom - and twist-to-rotate which is what MOST people want out of multi-touch, most of the time.

My only touch interaction besides dedicated single-purpose kiosks has been two Blackberrys i configured for BES. What do we mean by multi-touch in general, and 2-, 5-, and 10-point touch in particular?

...multi-touch indicates that the touch screen will register more than one finger movement at a time. 2-point would mean two fingers at one time, 5-point would mean 5- fingers at one time...

Check out the Multi-touch gestures section of this Wikipedia entry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-touch

the Pinch, Spread, and Rotate are basic 2-point touch gestures.

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This will show you what multi-touch means.
Check out the video at 1:37.
For example, with multi-touch, you can simulate playing the piano.
In fact, two people can play two separate pianos on the same screen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU1JWZp547A

I can't play the piano now.

I realize you posted the link only to demonstrate multi-touch. You accomplished that, even if the device itself didn't impress me. I assume the capability is useful for something practical too, because I'm not dropping $1600+ on something that doesn't legally require a driver's license.

If you don't have 10 point multi-touch, that Guitar app or piano app on your iPad wouldn't work right. A guitar simulator needs 5 points of touch minimum to accurately simulate the most basic chording and strumming of a real guitar. If you've got a 2 point touch display - that app wouldn't work for you.

I have to admit folks with t-rex arms will have a problem with a touchscreen monitor. I can't say they will ever "adapt" to the screen so they'll stay behind on Windows 7. On the bright side, those lacking sufficient musculature in their arms might over time build enough strength and stamina to maintain and actually enjoy the touchscreen features. And maybe even be cured of that carpal tunnel they've developed due to the mouse so their children will not be born with dainty wrists.

If you're going to discuss medical or ergonomic issues, do your research. Carpal tunnel syndrome is an injury to nerves in the wrist and hand. It's not a genetic defect that can be passed to children.

One hopes you have more research behind your opinions on Win8.

You don't say, NickNielsen?! Thank you sooo much. That fact almost negates the sardonic tone of my comment. Almost. I'm sure someone caught onto the humour within. (Did you get the sarcasm there? Hint: extra o's added to "so".)

What do we want? Classic! When do we want it? Now!
I add my voice to the others who prefer Classic.
MS is no less than other organizations infested with people who have to make their mark by changing something, even for the worse. And different people have different desires. Classic for me; Aero/Modern/Fiddledaddle for others.
I like displays that cater to my eyeballs' fovea. Google figured this out. Others here have commented on how multiple clicking interferes with work flow. Right! It's a distraction, seemingly small, but centered at the heart of the user's actions.

The Start button lives in Windows XP through Windows 7. Just stay with one of those systems. No one wants to play your reindeer games. Some folks stay behind in their podunk town and others move to a new city. Don't hold back everyone who wants to find something better for THEMselves.

the start button made its debut in 95 with Windows 95, the first truly innovative and original OS to come from Redmond and a major improvement over the previous butchered version of Macintosh's OS many of us knew as Windows 1 thru 3.11. Just a little history lesson there for ya.

So Apple has these portable devices each becoming more and more dependent on the touchscreen. But on the computing side they don't incorporate touchscreens at all. Its iOS doesn't work without touch but its MacOS is not touchscreen-friendly at all. The Apple Paradox.

Both RT and 8 are touchscreen-friendly. You can still use a mouse (most unnatural tool ever) and keyboard but these new systems integrate touching - and not as a novelty. However, folks are up in arms about this. The Touchscreen Conundrum.

Why are MacOS computers not touch friendly? Why is the "desk top" still represented on a vertical digital wall (monitor)? Sticking to these things is like continuing to use the image of a floppy disk as the Save button. Folks who bought a computer in the past 10 years have probably never used one so it means nothing to them. Goodbye, floppy disk button. Goodbye, untouchable iMacs. Goodbye, Windows desktop.

Finally, as I have stated before, Linux is a specific-use operating system. It is not an OS for the masses. You have the proof in smartphones and mobile tablets. That's as close as it'll get to popularity. No sizable demographic wants a third party alternative in computerdom. Don't be a Nader.

I totally agree. And what's more -- I believe in the near future the Windows 8 OS will morph into a Voice ONLY version with a voice actuated only screen to look at and all apps ran on it will be of the same nature. Seriously -- do you really need to touch the computer at all??? I don't think so. I think Microsoft thinks the same way. I think the population just doesn't realize it yet? In the next 3 to 5 years we'll be able to purchase little full blown computers running on ARM chips or better with WiFi -- and we'll stand around with a ear piece with microphone hanging out of an ear while talking with the computer/phone still in our pockets while we make/answer calls, dictate notes/letters, check our calendar of events or create conferences.

The tech has been around for a while now, and it still barely works.

Even simple things, for example, my phone is convinced I have to say the word mobile as "mo-bull". Half the time it doesn't understand me when I say yes or no.

...in cars. On phones. On a TV ad where a cute redhead translates her intentions to a Mexican pooch.

What kind of accent do you have? If say none but live in the South, you do have an accent.

Actually, I think they have trouble understanding Canadian

Again, I don't say mo-bull.

to trying it with my hick western accent! !

That's voice activation. The set of keywords is limited and there are problems even then. None of the voice activation systems I've used or seen in use are reliable if there is any amount of background noise.

My Bionic and my Galaxy Note 2 allow me to compose a text message, tweet, or email while I am driving.
Not that I do it that much...

I don't even want to think what the VR software could do to any message I dictated while driving.

I'd have to stop and proofread it, and if I'm going to do that, I might as well stop and draft it, as well.

Personally, I think that if voice dictation is not accurate 99.9% of the time, most people will give up on it.
In addition, I can think of work places where voice dictation would be annoying and distracting. Who wants to be in an open office overhearing several people using it?

I bet after a few minutes, everyone will be yelling curse words, and they will translate across to whatever document they are dictating, or another person is dictating.
"And the quick brown fox f**king computer jumped over the lazy dog"

I don't think I have person to person conversations with that recognition rate. Most conversations have one or two cases where one person asks the other to repeat himself, and even more frequently over cell phones

Naturally Speaking?
It's fine until you have to edit what it just wrote on your screen.
I am constantly editing and refining my text as I type it out.
There is a substantial set of voice commands to learn for Dragon. Forget trying to review and edit someone else's document. I simply lost patience with it.

"naturally." It was originally "simply" but that didn't work out.

Which is a critical part of their clinical care.

It is among the best. Oddly enough, the argument here, "You've got to learn a difficult set of commands," is the same argument we're getting out of the anti-Windows 8 camp.

Here is the thing, for Docs, the benefit is so significant it is worth the steep learning curve. It is all about the payoff.

You do not need to learn a different set of commands in Windows 8 if you do not want to. The old ones still work. The Windows Key is used in Windows 7. The quickest way I have found to lock my Windows 7 & 8 screen before walking away is Windows + L. Ctrl-Alt-Del+Enter also works for both.
Yes, there are new gestures to learn with a touch interface but they are optional and intuitive.
For example, we skip back pages in a book by grabbing the left edge and swiping to the right. We go forward in a book by grabbing the right edge and swiping to the left. That's how you go back and forth throughout the Metro style screens. It's very intuitive.
With Dragon Naturally speaking, you need to learn a specific set of commands or the system will not work. With Dragon, I say things like "Numbers Mode On", "Switch to Spell", "Command", "Dictation", and "Normal Mode". Now, imagine if I dictated the previous sentence in natural language. I would totally confuse Dragon! Who knows what mode I would end up in an who knows what to do with the punctuation?

He said the arguments raised against Naturally Speaking were similar to those raised against W8. He didn't say he agreed with them.

And you got it right, Palmie. Thanks for the correction.

Although Windows gestures are *not* intuitive. Touch gestures are more intuitive on Android and iOS. They're more *powerful* on Windows 8.

Want to split the screen in Modern UI? Pull down from the top, then move to the left or the right UNTIL the minimized image of your current app becomes outlined, then release, and it will snap to a split screen grid. This is COMPLEX... but powerful.

Want to use a gesture to "alt-tab" through your apps? *Flick* (not swipe), from the very left edge of your display. Want to bring up a LIST of your running apps? Flick from the left edge, but then reverse BACK to the edge of the display with your gesture.

Complex, non-intuitive - you'll need to be shown it, or read it, and you'll have to practice it. But once you *master* it, you'll like it.

A 2 year old or chimp is not going to pick up a Windows 8 tablet and instantly master it. I don't think this is necessarily a BAD thing. It probably means that iOS will remain very popular among college students.

"Want to split the screen in Modern UI? Pull down from the top, then move to the left or the right UNTIL the minimized image of your current app becomes outlined, then release, ..."

That's the same behavior as 'Snap' in W7; nothing new.

What's the difference between swiping and flicking? The link JJ posted with gesture videos didn't make that clear to me. Is there a mouse equivalent to flicking?

It's definitely not a tool for the masses. If you don't have a need that only it can fill, it isn't going to be worth climbing the learning curve. Basically, that means that voice is the ONLY method open to you for interaction. That means quadriplegics and people whose jobs mandate they can't transfer their hands to a keyboard; coroners leap to mind. Authors would be wasting their time.

that he could record his voice on his tape recorder, bring it into the office, play it back for Dragon and it would magically create a 20+ page engineering standard operating procedure while he relaxed and watched.
Another person who spoke broken English thought that it would fix her grammar on the fly.
It's not miracle software folks!

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