Discussion on:

You don't really need a Start Menu in Windows 8

Why does no one ever mention the Desktop toolbar that can be added to the Task bar? I use it with WIndows 7 and its still available in Windows 8. Great way to display all the icons on your desktop with one click without minimizing the current window. Simply right-click on the Task bar and select Toolsbars, Desktop. You can create folders on the desktop and add shortcuts give you a Start Menu effect. Give it a try...
K

If I ever do get a Win 8 machine I suspect that is what I will do, at least it was what I did with both of the previews I tested.

...something that I considered adding to this article, but decided to leave it out this time around because the toolbar menu is so pitifully small. Probably should have mentioned it anyway. Thanks for doing so as it definitely is a viable solution.

Alternatively, you can check out an article that I wrote back in April:

Easily revive the Classic Start Menu hidden within Windows 8
http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/window-on-windows/easily-revive-the-classic-start-menu-hidden-within-windows-8/5945

The menu would be hugely more useful if it was sorted.
If by "small", you mean the character sizes, I agree. And one cannot get Virtual Magnifier onto the menu.

On my notebook it contains 37 icons. OK, you have to delete the ones you don't want and reorganize/sort it by drag and drop, but it is immensely useful. You can also add a Quicklaunch toolbar, which adds up to 37 more apps/programs/features. Plus pinned programs on the taskbar gives me 96 programs/apps accessed with one or two clicks. For me, this covers about 99% of my needs. I use metro UI about once per week.

Does anyone else here regularly (or even infrequently) use 170 different programs?!!! It sounds like a hell of a lot of programs to me!

That when you install any Suite of Applications like for instance Microsoft Office each component has a Tile and all of the subcomponents have tiles. Not such a bad thing for Major Applications like Word but a real issue for some of the other very rarely used things that create their own tiles in the Start Menu.

Also as they roll off the screen they are great for Hand Held Touch Screen Devices but more than a bit of a nuisance on a Desktop or NB.

The Test Rig that I had 8 Preview running on before it's release had 350 Tiles on the Metro Interface and finding things in that was a nightmare. Might sound like a lot of Apps but really there where only a few programs installed Video Editing & Recording, Graphic, Office and the like.

Though the things installed where not apps per say but full applications which the desktop was suited for. For instance you install Corel Draw and get about 30 new tiles.

Col

unpinning the majority of the tiles from the Start Screen and just using the desktop to access your programs?
For example; Install Corel Draw, go to the Start Screen select all 30 tiles it installed and unpin them. The Corel icons will be the last 30 tiles on the Start Screen.
If you do all of your work on the desktop, then all you need is the Desktop tile in the upper left corner of your start screen and the desktop toolbar on your taskbar.
Boot up the computer, hit the enter key and work in the desktop all day.
While you're at it, make a shutdown shortcut and put it on your desktop taskbar. Then you don't need Charms to shut the computer off.

Up to 37 on desktop toolbar, 37 on quicklaunch and 22 on the taskbar. That includes numerous accessories and control panel items. It would be good if Greg would pick this up and write a blog on it. I think it would cut off 90% of the whinging about W8 by non-touch notebook/desktop users.

tell you guys but no one whated to hear me for months

tell cnet and zdnet "reporters" the same thing for last few months but no one caired

My friend's daughter has a Mac and I literally cannot bear seeing the icons dotted all over her screen! I only keep the Recycle bin and Internet Options on mine, mostly because I just prefer a clear desktop but also because most computer sites say that having loads of icons/program shortcuts on your desktop slows Windows down? Anyway, then I have my six most frequently used programs are in my Quick Launch folder on the Taskbar and the next seven 'fairly frequently used' shortcuts are pinned to my Start Menu. I very rarely need to use or find a program in the start menu: I just put my mouse over the Quick Launch bar or go to the programs pinned to my Start Menu and select one as quickly and easily as you like! Seriously, what could be simpler?

Easy answer is not needing to setup that in the first place. Honest.

Col

that you installed Windows XP, Vista, or 7 (whatever Microsoft OS you use as your desktop) out of the box and made absolutely no personalization changes to it but don't expect me to believe you.

In XP or 7 is to Sort by Name and I don't have a issue with that.

No need to make any other changes and to be perfectly honest the amount of time I spend setting up Desktops for Clients is already way too great I really don't need to be adding more steps and time to the process. Not to mention finding the networking and other Setup items in 8 is more complex/time consuming.

Col

I'm talking about your personal desktop.
You don't show hidden files?
You don't add frequently used programs to the taskbar?
You don't pin frequently used programs to the start menu?
You don't disable Aero and other windows animations to save the processor for more important things?
You don't change the default page file size?
You don't change your default home page in IE?
You don't change your default browser?
You don't add bookmarks?
You don't add the "My Computer" and the recycle bin icons to the desktop screen?
You don't disable notifications in the task tray?
You don't change your desktop theme?
You don't redirect "My Documents" to a private network drive?
You don't change your default printer?
You don't do all of the above once, create an image and use that image to save yourself from doing it in all subsequent installs?
That is interesting.
These are just the things I can remember to do off the top of my head.

sorry, couldn't resist.

I think he's got ya here, HAL. Time to open the pod bay doors and let the atmosphere out..

You don't show hidden files?

Yep sure do but it's not on the Start Menu.

You don't add frequently used programs to the taskbar?

Nope I don't as what i use has Icons on the Desktop and because of what I do I can not have more than one thing at a time open when I'm doing Real Work as apposed to looking at E Mail.

You don't pin frequently used programs to the start menu?

Nope they are there already and when I'm using 7 which incidental I might add only 2 users of my clients are currently using what I use a lot of pins itself to the opening Start Menu. Though I have to be perfectly Honest I don't use 7 that much either. Only open it once a day to do Updates and check TR late at night after the system has been shut down for the day most days as I don't get many help calls for 7 systems where I need to be sitting in front of a system running version of 7 or 8 for that matter.

You don't disable Aero and other windows animations

My Oath I do as I only have a i7 and 24 GIG of RAM on this system it not powerful enough to run that junk when I'm using 7.

You don't change the default page file size?

Most times no I don't as now any new systems go out with at least 8 GIG of RAM so Page or Swap Files are not an issue. Well at the moment at least.

You don't change your default home page in IE?

Most defiantly but you do that in the Browser which is opened by pressing a key on the keyboard called Web/Home.

You don't change your default browser?

Actually no because most clients use IE and no matter how much I hate it I have to support it.

I actually had one of them complaining that when they Opened Firefox and tried a Web Site that they got a message that they had to be using IE8 or higher to view this page and they wanted to know how they should proceed. I know End Users.

You don't add bookmarks?

Sure do but again this is inside the Browser and nothing to do with the Start Menu. On a new load they are coppied in with the End Users Data, not really sure how else you could do it for a reload either.

You don't add the "My Computer" and the recycle bin icons to the desktop screen?

With XP both are already there even with the version of 7 I'm using 64 Bit Pro the Recycle Bin is on the Desktop and the My Computer key on the keyboard opens that so no I don't really need it on the Desktop. Though to be honest that also applies to 8 except for the recycle bin if I remember correctly.

You don't disable notifications in the task tray?

Actually no I don't mainly because for myself I need to have some idea of what the clients are seeing as they'll ring up say something along the lines I got this thing on the screen what's it mean? None of my clients are very computer literate but all are Professionals who may use a computer during the day but it's not what they do for a living.

You don't change your desktop theme?

No not really but that is changed when I slipstream the Install so it apples to all OS's of the Windows Variety not something to do after the OS is installed.

You don't redirect "My Documents" to a private network drive?

Sometimes, Sometimes Not depends on the client and what they actually do. I should however add I don't do work for Large Business any more as they have enough people both inside and outside their doors I specialize in Small Business with most times under 20 users so I tend to work in a different environment to a lot of IT People. What can I say I'm lazy and the days of needing to change the product key on 1500 systems to get them running again after a service pack installation are way behind me. Sounds Too Much like Hard Work. The fact that the Government takes ages to pay didn't help me want to continue doing the work either.

You don't change your default printer?

On my personal system most defiantly but on client machines hardly ever. Only time I can remember changing a Default Printer was when installing a new printer to replace a broken one.

You don't do all of the above once, create an image and use that image to save yourself from doing it in all subsequent installs?

Sure do but as things stand now I have to do more work to get the same results with 8 as I did with XP and 7. So I'll say it again 8 is Plain & Simple more work for me. Though to be perfectly honest Subsequent Installs don't count I make the Image before the First Install. It's one of the advantages of using Volume License all of the time.

Though I hardly see how any of the above in any way remove any steps from what is required to produce a working System for Clients where I can walk in the door drop the unit on a desk and not need to do anything else. Though I do add the Clients E Mail Accounts and all of the Clients Data as well after the install as I've not yet found a way to not need to do that.

So how many of the above are changes to the Start Menu?

To be fair that is what you asked not System Changes. Not really sure how you add Bookmarks from the Start Menu even in 8 as I've always needed a Browser open in the past to add a Bookmark.

Remember whatever they want to call Metro now is still the Start Menu and to be perfectly honest I've in the past other than Sorting By Name have not needed to make any changes there.

Rebuilding the Start menu on the Desktop is another Step in the setup of Windows 8 that is a waste of my Time.

Col

I apologize for that.
I was trying to illustrate that most people, especially those in IT, make a ton of changes to the out of the box install of Windows XP, Vista, and 7 on their personal machine.
I call these "personalization changes". I was not restricting my examples to the Start Menu.
If most IT people execute these dozen or so changes on their current personal systems, it is a bit presumptuous to expect a new "out of the box" Windows operating system to exactly meet your specific needs.
Everyone's needs are different.
That goes for most operating systems. I make a lot of changes to the "out of the box" Linux and Android installs too.

We where talking at cross purposes.

Personally I don't mind Metro or whatever they want to call it now it's just that I don't see it as the best user interface for End Users at the moment who have been using a GUI for all of their Computing Lives. Remember that these people are not paid to be IT Experts many have real jobs who are required to interact with computers sometime in their working lives.

Like a Surgeon who's main job is going in with his Knife and Fork and cutting things out of people or adding things to replace broken bits.

These people have to use a computer to get things like E Mail which is used to send them Patient Records so that they know what they will be facing but even they hand write their Patient Notes up in Longhand and then get some other staff member to transcribe them to computer.

I have a bunch of Earthmover's who willing crush computers that don't do as they want and these guys are not going to be told that they have to change how they interact with their computers just to do what they have been doing for years. They all ask so it's new but why is it better for me?

The truth of the matter is that for them individually it's not better just something that will come eventually.

Though the more that they use Interfaces like Metro on their Phones the less of an issue it's going to be when they have to use it on their computers. Sorry but at the moment I just don't see Metro as an Improvement, however when every boy and their Dog uses Windows Phones having the one User Interface would be an advantage and they could seamlessly step from one device to another without thinking.

It just till that transition is complete there is a problem.

However I do find it funny how many people say it's easier typing to open an app when for years M$ and all of their Fan-people have been telling us that Typing is so Old Hat and it's better using a Icon to click on. After all that is why Windows was such an improvement over DOS/Unix because you didn't need to remember the names of things and there was no typing just a couple of button clicks and quite often just the 1 Button click.

Col

I hope you didn't fall off your chair after reading that.
I too have to deal with users who do not live behind their computer so they are not as computer savvy or as willing to learn as those who do.
As I have said before, I do not plan to install Win 8 in the Enterprise right now. Eventhough, it is very simple to use (in my opinion), I can visualize the panic, cursing, gnashing of teeth, and burning effigies of me around the campus if I gave it to some users.
Over time, I think it will work its way out of my IT department and into other departments just as other computer systems have. and that's the way it should work.
I ran into not so much resistance but an inability to see the usefulness of other systems we have deployed in the past. Live Communicator and SharePoint come to mind. Eventually, the users figure out that it is useful and that they can no longer live without it.
I resist the temptation to say, "I told you so!"

I've been trying to figure out uses for SharePoint in our facility for at least three years, and uses for Communicator for myself for at least two. I can't fault users for not seeing all the benefits when I don't really get them myself. I can see value in SP, just not how we can effectively use it in the facility I support. The users seem content with traditional file sharing. Communicator continues to elude me, except that it can save us the cost of a long-distance call. To me it's just lightweight e-mail. Maybe its advantages will become more apparent when we roll out Lync next quarter as our primary communications tool and (theoretically) drop POTS.

Maybe I am getting too old for this industry.

We collaborate on a ton of documents at my BioTech company and we needed a better way to manage version control. Collaborating in a file share is difficult to maintain since it is so vulnerable to accidental modification and deletion. Plus, file shares do not automatically notify all parties when someone has made a change to the document. Collaborating through email attachments is a mess. It's easy to forget to inform everyone of a document change they need to look at.
SharePoint pages can be hierarchical and project based. We use it to manage the construction of a new building, new laboratory, new research projects, clinical research, collaboration with other companies worldwide, production scheduling, company announcements, etc.. It's a very versatile tool.
If set up properly, SharePoint maintains version control, automatically alerts others when a change has been made, integrates with MS Office for file check in and out.
SharePoint is "presence aware" when used with Live Communicator, A green dot next to the collaborators' names in SharePoint (and Outlook) indicates that they are at their keyboard. Right clicking their name allows you to immediately email of "im" them or even call them via VoIP. I use it to launch Live Communicator all the time.
I treat Live Communicator like a light version of email. I use it if I need a quick reply. I use email if I need to send a detailed message or I need to send a message outside of our network.
Live Communicator is restricted to internal messaging only.

but apparently the users don't need or want them. The majority of people in our other location love it, but they're more project, development, and engineering oriented than the manufacturing plant I'm in. I did a couple of dog and pony shows when the server first came on line, but I had almost no interest expressed. A large part of it is that we have too much data in too many other document management systems already; people don't want yet another place to search.

We use it for departmental data, but I frankly don't like it for our purposes. For example, why have a Sharepoint List for hardware inventory, with individual items that must be opened one at a time to edit them, when a spreadsheet could handle it all? I'm sure we're using it so ineffectively as to be counterproductive, but the department head set it up and likes it. It's about the only disagreement I have with her, so I'll pick my battles.

I agree that turning a SharePoint page into a glorified spreadsheet is not an efficient use of the tool.

We too have a formal electronic document management system (EDMS). One of the ways we use SharePoint is as an informal draft stage collaboration tool - a pre-EDMS. Once collaboration is done, the final document is published to EDMS where it is routed for approval and end user training. We didn't want to clutter the formal tool or confuse the user with all of the intermediate drafts and collaboration notes.
Our EDMS is web based so we link to it from SharePoint. Interestingly, I found that some users thought that our SharePoint and EDMS were the same application. When we shut down SharePoint for maintenance users started calling me claiming that EDMS was unavailable.
Our Help Desk system and ERP are also linked to SharePoint. My Help Desk "How to" documentation and videos are stored in SharePoint.
Our conference & training room class schedules and room reservations are built into SharePoint.
I guess SharePoint is kind of like our corporate glue.

I've been begging for funds for Sharepoint for over 3 years now, asking to bring in consultants, get sent to training, get funding for hardware and licensing. My users are *also* content with traditional file sharing.

On a regular basis they lose files and entire folders when someone accidently drags and drops something somewhere else or otherwise manages to bungle saving or updating data in a shared file on a shared folder. They lose data. Old stale files that can be archived or removed are outrageously difficult to locate so the shares grow exponentially in size. It is an IT administration nightmare where everything that goes wrong is pinned on the IT team when it is really about how impractical file shares are for document collaboration. Speaking of which, we maintain VPNs with partners and clients to allow them to collaborate on documents - an unnecessary security risk and potential vector for virus infection.

SharePoint answers *all* of these problems, implemented correctly. It is one of a handful of solutions available to deliver this solution.

But I couldn't get my wife to see the value of a big screen TV until years of nagging wore her down. Then the same thing happened with our first flat panel projection screen, which made her receptive to the Plasma, which lead to LCDs. The same thing happened with my PCs. "What do you need an LCD for when your CRT is fine..."

"Why should we change the way we've always done it, the way we're comfortable with, to learn something new when we don't see any value in it..."

Hearing that question is the story of an IT Manager's life. It says, "finds new and innovative solutions to enhance workflow, increase producitivty and maintain competitive advantages," on my job description. It always says something like that - but very rarely do I get asked to exercise that role.

"Don't want or don't need" doesn't mean anything. Users should not dictate technology roadmaps - IT innovators should. (Wives shouldn't either, unless they are the technology innovator in the household).

We missed OneNote collaboration integration via SharePoint as one of the benefits - and it is a big one if you can get the company culture to adopt OneNote as their universal meeting note-taking solution. Multiple people in the same document at the same time capturing their own responsibilities in a meeting notebook with multiple tabs and pages and available hotlinking to IE and Outlook. Such an incredible productivity and management tool suite. Adoption is easy once you show it and explain the benefits in meetings. "If an AR or deliverable isn't captured in the OneNote meeting notebook, it doesn't exist - the person who assigns it notes so in their area, and the person responsible for the deliverable or action item captures it in their area, and people who aren't involved can safely ignore it. Meeting note self-accountability.

JJ - your organization sounds like Nirvana. Are they hiring?

of the benefits of SharePoint.
The thing that finally convinced them was a presentation I gave with a trial version I built with my vision of how it could work. I walked them through a typical day using SharePoint "integrated" with our other programs.
I could talk until I was blue in the face but it was the actual demo that really sank in and sealed the deal.
We recently put up a SharePoint instance outside of our network to collaborate with outside partners. SharePoint is so much cleaner and easier for users to understand than what we were using (sFTP).
We have used ssl VPN's in the past as well but the collaborators often had trouble connecting as their computers didn't pass minimum OS, browser, and security requirements.

The only job opening I have now is for a Senior Oracle DBA.

I think it's another one of those things I can't visualize without seeing it in effective operation. It doesn't help that the SP server is at another site, and the file server is here. The difference in response speed is noticeable.

For once my users appear to be better trained than someone else's. I don't see the accidental deletion problems Col does; maybe every couple of months or so. We recently upgraded Exchange, and training room calendars remain there. (They were planned to go into SP; I don't know why that changed. Inability to schedule a meeting and reserve an SP room from one Outlook action?)

And I hear Ford is coming out with a new model of car. You have to get out and go to the front of the car and turn a crank...how ingenious! MS has created a new category of software......"Anti-Productivity software"

Cars must have been impossible to start when it got sub -30C

Hell, I'M impossible to start when it gets sub +5C!

nt

it was actually the only way to get it to start in the winter! HA! It was probably one of the most reliable cars I ever owned because of that. No battery power? No problem!! It made good gas mileage, but you had to yell BANZAI! when you attempted to pass anybody on the road. Not quite a hot rod! My school chums liked picking it up by the bumper and parking over the parking blocks so I couldn't leave the campus. We had contests on how many chums we could pack in it at one time. More fun than a barrel of monkeys!! 1967 Renault Dauphine. http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=1967+Renault+Dauphine&mid=E8C1F4CD257454E75923E8C1F4CD257454E75923&view=detail&FORM=VIRE1

There's no small irony in that choice.

I value personal difference over chick magnets. I'm a dyed in the wool individualist - to the point of personal pain! HA!

It doesn't matter to me what the crowd likes or is buying. If I don't see a need for it or want one for myself, I'll leave it on the shelf.

On the other hand, when I find something I like, I'll use it until it falls apart. Thus, 334k miles on an Escort!

My next car would have been a Ford Fiesta had the dealer not messed up the sale. I love them fuel sippers! They are more fun to drive too!

People can laff all they want - they are jealous when they see what I can do with my money savings from the gas though!

Mileage reimbursement was anywhere from $.405 to $.445 while I was driving it for work. My actual cost, including repairs, was somewhere around 29¢ a mile the year I put the new struts on it.

And my 5-speed LS would hold 77mph on an 8% grade without a downshift and p1$$ the rednecks right off when I pushed their trucks up the hil!

It got 80 to 90 miles per gallon. I rode it back and forth to work for 11 years.
Yeah, some people snickered at me. big deal

7 Gears and it returns in excess of 125 Kilometers per Liter.

Of course being a 2 Stroke it emits a lot of smoke and I need to mix 2 Stroke Oil with the Fuel before filling the tank but it's really cheap to drive and acceptably fast.

If you work your way up to top speed it will hold 80 KPH on all but the steepest hill or strongest head wind. It takes about twice as long to go 50 K's as driving a car so it's slower but far more economical.

Col

I got ya'll beat! I had a recumbent bicycle that the cops clocked a 50 mph, that didn't use gas at all. Just grocery bills - HA! I must have put 10,000 miles on that thing before my brother bought it from me.

just kidding...???

.

and some time folks hands would be broken too. i should know own a model t at one time.kid. and for all the folks who took the time to vote me down on my lats post check my pryer post that i had try to tell folks about a easyer way around windows 8 . hell even sent post to the so called "reporters" but eveb this nut would not tell any one even in this report. so bite me

I have to admit that to me, Windows 8 sounds as if it would be counter productive, what with no start menu and the touch-screen design of the awful Metro screen! But not having tried it, I certainly wouldn't slate it as being Anti-Productive: I would only do that if I had tried using it for a couple of months and still found it tiresome.

I can name so many stupid issues, many have existed since Windows 95. For example, why does the OS start locking up if you perform heavy hard disc access tasks. If you are copying to one hard drive, why should the second get slowed down? Are read/writes not multi threaded?

Why do we still have blue screens? If a driver crashes, the OS should automatically reload it.

You might have chosen a counter example. If the computer has only one disk controller, traffic on one drive will slow down all drives, depending on how many data paths the controller has.
Your point is good, though. For example, in W7, if the USB disk "ejector" refuses to eject a disk because it finds that some app is using the disk, why can't it tell me which app? (Maybe W8 corrects this issue, in which case, I take it back.)