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Tech workers back need for more women in IT but oppose quotas

I think you'd get the same results if you ran this survey for US IT workers as well.

Gender equality is important, but I think people often go about it the wrong way. Do some companies have glass ceilings and/or a sexist bias in their hiring? Certainly, and we should work to eliminate that kind of backwards thinking. But the lack of women doesn't actually indicate those things - correlation does not imply causation, after all. We don't have a lot of women in our IT organization or in our company's executive team, but I know for a fact that it's not discrimination; it's that few women apply for the job. Imposing quotas, and other such affirmative action programs, are not the solution. They are in and of themselves unfair - they assume that everyone is doing it wrong and needs to be scolded.

Whenever there are quotas based on anything but ability, you sacrifice quality for equality. In addition to possibly bringing in less proficient staff, there may be a resentment among the others that feel the bar was set lower for someone due to an attribute they cannot change themselves. This will increase resistance by peers to accept a person hired under a quota and set them up for failure.

Force em to watch big bang theory?

Hak5 may be a good recruiting tool. There is a lady on there that is feminine, but also tech savy. It's pretty good content too if the one episode I watched is representative of the whole series.

Bill

Get them away from the notion that Facebook and Twitter are 'technology' and 'geeky.' Get back to teaching basic computers as it being a tool, not a toy. Teach how a computer works - at a basic level. In my beginning class, I brought in a box of parts and a case and 'built' a computer. Purpose? Show them there was nothing inside that would eat them! They loved it.

I had students enter my class with their back to the wall .. sliding across, too afraid to sit at a computer. I encouraged them from the word 'go,' and when the class was done, they came back, enthusiastically, for more.

I'll never forget one high school student - female - who took my basic classes and then followed me all the way thru my Office classes. We talked one day and she said she used computers all the time for classes. Why then, I asked, was she taking my classes? She said they were only taught how to *produce* something, step-by-step like a robot: a Word document, a PowerPoint presentation, but were never taught HOW the programs worked. That is what she wanted to know - how the program worked and how to best apply it 'out of the box.' Think. Produce. She had a real interest in technology and I encouraged her to follow it.

So .. there is a whole world of potential out there in education, but I don't see it being developed. Handing a child an iPad so s/he can stab a finger at a screen and swipe things is neither education nor technology. It's a lost potential.

I have three teenage children. They each have a home PC. They also each have had 'state mandated school laptops' since the 6th grade. They can word process and make 'keynotes'. They can create videos. They have absolutely no idea how a computer works. They do not know the difference between hardware and software. They can barely install a game (unless it's on steam).

According to the school this is as designed. They are only supposed to know how to 'produce'.. not how it works. I hear from people all over the web telling me that the new millennials have no need for 'tech support' because they are so 'computer savvy'. Really? I don't see it. Only one of my kids friends has any interest in actually figuring out how a computer works. I offered to show him as I always have junk around to tech with.. but his mother freaked out because she felt if he knew more then he'd 'mess' with their home pc.

I gave my 12 yo daughter a Raspberry pi that I had set up and now she can't let go. Deliberately I haven't connected it to the net yet but with MIT Scratch alone it's keeping her occupied for hours and hours. The XBOX 360, Wii and the PSP were a complete waste of money compared to that cheap little box. The good thing about the Raspberry pi is that you can just wipe it and start over every now and again.

@Slayer: I am afraid that being a nerd is like being bi or gay or straight - I honestly think we are born that way and yes - I am a girl-nerd who is bombarded with job offers in IT. I always thought it was because it was in the STEM fields. I didn't realize it was also because I am a nerd chick! Also, there have to be nerd girls out there otherwise were would all the little nerds come from?? Actually one of my fellow geek girlfriends created a new label for all of us: Nerks which is a combination of nerd and geek. I am definitely a Nerk!

...how many engineers are married to nurses? I'm married to a (slightly geeky) nurse and we're currently filling our house with little geeklets. So maybe that's where geeks come from.

because they like the uniform. I could think of many other nice things but they aren't suitable for innocent minds. When I was an engineering student the local nursing school was like a honey pot for us. We also had a lot of fun at the local pharmacy school. Ah! good times indeed. Though I am sure your wife put you on the right path.

Once inherited, it takes over.

skills and experience just so the company can quickly meet their quota. This often means the people are not in positions that have low levels of responsibility and are not really considered for promotion to more demanding jobs due to the perceptions of them having got their job solely due to the quota.

Much better to use a scheme like the apprentice system where the people supporting the employment pay a part of the wage for a few months or the company a bonus after 6 months. Maybe the BCSWomen should establish an IT employment agency and offer a big discount on their fees if the company hires a woman. At least that would ensure the women hired are seen as real professionals and able to do the job properly.

You are entirely correct.

and get it aired to encourage women and girls to enter the IT field. The first women in the IT field were hired due to their capabilities, as were the first men, so that should be emphasised and not quotes. Oh who should the mini series be on, only the mother of IT - Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiral_Grace_Hopper

The majority of IT professionals in the UK are blithering idiots.
They don't "need" more women in I.T.
They need more qualified people in I.T.
They would like to see more qualified women in I.T. from a purely balanced social demographic standpoint; but they certainly don't "need" any particular gender.

Just makes sense. Don't lower bar. Poisoning the environment for everyone.

I would be offended if I were hired for an IT position just because I'm female. Employers should hire the most qualified individual for the job regardless of gender or race.

I don't believe I've ever been offered a job simply because they needed to hire a woman, and if I ever found out that was the reason ofr hiring me (or even something that was factored in to the decision) I'd be looking elsewhere very quickly. I want to compete for a job based on my skills, experience and fit with the team, not because I happened to have 2X chromosomes instead of XY

there is always some subjective factor(s) in place, your looks (who can convincingly argue with this?), the bond with your future boss, and I am afraid sometime, even if subconsciously, but it might make a difference if you are a girl or a boy.

Having been in the hiring process in previous lives, there are "minority consideration" lines to check off on interview results in some companies. If we did not at least interview an equivalent number of minorities (of which, in engineering especially, women are one), our dept. was dinged. That being said, we weren't required (though encouraged) to hire a minority per se.

So the good news is we were expected to at least offer the opportunity (some might say preferentially) to interview to women/minorities, which, though might ruffle some folks feathers, may have resulted in hiring a woman. As you say, hopefully it is due to better (or at least equivalent) skills. Can't honestly say, depending on how rabidly "PC" a company enforces minority hiring.

Women can see that IT is very insecure - constantly changing technology and skills, employers who only want people with latest skills..., try taking 5 years off to have kids and your career is gone. And now of course with outsourcing, IT jobs are decreasing.

Without sounding sexist, WHY does there need to be more woman? Just because the numbers are not even in male / female positions, why does that matter?
It comes across as a call to hire women JUST because their women, not because they are better suited, better qualified etc.
Why not say there should be more, or quotas of, MEN in nursing , teaching, child care, fashion sales, perfume departments, lingerie stores, etc etc.
Any suitably qualified, experiences or interested person, SHOULD be able to go into any field he or she wants! Not be dragged in because of sex or be denied because they're over quota for that industry!

that says that, for example, since blacks make up 11% (or so) of the population, that all jobs should be 11% black (which means the NFL would have to fire a lot of black players). Pick your "minority" group. Insanity. "Affirmative action" needs to die a horrible death.

By the way, you were not being sexist any more than I was being racist (I wasn't). Let's leave people to be free to do whatever they want job-wise.

If you are qualified to fill the job, there are no other items to influence those qualifications. Of course, some of those qualifications might be a bit slanted but are neccesary. Such as fluent in English, reading and writing. Silly, but that may change with the country. Lifting requirements and sometimes a bit of roof walking becomes part of the job. Claustraphobia and fear of heights can lead to some uneasy moments on a simple installation. The world is filled with skilled and willing workers who will do the whole job, not half or have to rely on fellow workers to do their job.

Probably a silly question.

IT people are no longer nerds. The word "Nerd" is some crap that Americans passed over to the other side of the pond to Europe. Although I saw very few female electronic engineers in the 80's I am quite sure that in the next 15 years we will see the imbalance fixed on it's own. You will thank Nintendo, Facebook and numerous flash games sites for fixing the imbalance. Before the Nintendo NDS, girls showed relatively little interest in games. Now that I see that my daughter and her friends have had Nintendos since they were 7 years old. I also see that there is an equal interest in schools for both genders in IT lessons. Since IT is only considered by 40 somethings as a nerdy I can't see that IT won't be fashionable for both genders. The only difference being boys will play "Call of Duty" and girls will play "Nintendo Puppies". However, the interest in basic IT will be the same. In the future only grandad will use the word "nerd". Engineers in European countries are not classed as "nerds" but society gives them similar professional recognition as Lawyers and Doctors. Although, I hope engineers don't make money from other people's suffering

IT doesn't NEED more women, not does it NEED more men. IT just needs qualified PEOPLE! If they happen to be women, great! If they happen to be men, great! If they're not qualified, get rid of them.

Get over this equal representation cr@p already!

Those who are competent and want to do the job should be chosen without bias.

We've tried Comparable Worth in government agencies in the United States with less than the best success -- paying secretaries the same as truck drivers creates an artificial balance not supported by world markets and may have been a (small) factor in outsourcing as we price our labor force out of jobs.

There should be equal pay for equal competence for equivalent careers with no bias at all.

The problem comes when management defines competence.

Historically, it is the responsibility of man to earn money. So men are always under pressure to work and earn money. Even if you don't like some job but if it is the only option then you should work. Sometimes you don't have so much options. But women generally prefer better jobs and if they don't like it they don't accept it and don't work. That's all. Women don't like IT because you can be called in the middle of your dreams because of a simple system component failure. If you're on the development side then long nights and weekends with overtime waits for you. I remember at some time police department said "our men are working in very bad conditions but I can not send women to everywhere. Most of them are not strong enough for long and heavy duties. And of course for each pregnancy our jobs must be replanned again and again. Our offices are full of women and I do not want more". Let's be honest. Women are not Xena. Generally they are not forced like us to work under any condition. They can "choise" which is a very important factor. Do not be mistaken by the exceptional women who say very big things and seem like a warrior princess. In real life there are not so much of them. So if you don't give positive discrimination then you can not get work balance. But if our aim is quality then this can not be solved with adding women to the area. It's not about gender or race, it's all about knowledge, experience, performance.

Also can I get the original requirement? Do we want to increase the number of IT workers, do we want to increase the software quality OR do we just need women? Is that all about it? What is the requirement?

...which is why there are more guys in IT than women, and I'd guess (not actually looked at the official stats) that would be why there are more females in nursing. The same is true for differing personality types
So why do people feel the need to create and artificial sense of "equality" by wanting to ensure that there's a 50/50 split? If more women want a career in IT - great! But attract them through education and motivation - not legislation!

It is hard for me to give an opinion on this topic but when I was for a short while at IT studies at one of the technical universities there where maybe 5 women for 40-50 students on one year. The point is that men and women are different and still it is difficult to see a woman who enjoys sitting at the computer and types some code on the screen. I don't know where is the reason but the more I talk with some girls who were on IT studies I got an impression that they were slowly getting bored with all that stuff. On the other hand, I see in my country that women chose other subject,courses etc such as production management. The reason might be in the way a man and a woman sees the complexity of a matter. Men see a problem in a more direct way staying focus on one thing and trying to understand a subject,problem thoroughly. Women tend to see many problems and they try to deal with many problems at the same time. All this might be based on biological prerequisites and it doesn't mean that any of the parties is worse or better.

They need to take a more best practice approach rather than a quota approach.

A quota approach will make people resent their female co-workers, rather than doing what most retailers and/or businesses do, is hiring based on the general population within the geographical boundaries of the company's location.

I think we should have more females in the industry, it makes things more rounded in the work place, just like hiring different races I believe helps make the work place more well rounded.

All this coming from a middle income, mid-life white guy with no kids and no wife and straight......think that's too much information, well....its just saying my opinion comes from a person with the most to "lose" with all this being implemented.

it is my recollection that there were very few women in the classes - usually only one or two in a class of 20 or so. Could it be that most young women (or women of any age) aren't interested in jobs in Information Technology?

As a woman, I have worked, and still work, in IT for over 40 years. A career in IT always allowed me to make decent money. Yes, I have been through lay-offs and downturns, but I survived because I was able to save during the good times AND because I always kept my skills tuned and multiple certifications current. For women who are nerds or geeks or otherwise have the temperament, skills and desires, this should be a great recruiting tool. This should be part of 'promoting women in IT'.

If more women want to be in IT, then they need to put forth the effort to do so. It is not incumbent upon anyone else to 'encourage' women to do anything. There is no 'encouragement' for men to be in IT, but yet we are involved. Why do people feel that women need special assistance? As Nate said above, correlation does not imply causation. A simple lesson that needs to be learned by both the HR industry a special interest groups of all stripes.

How about we let the people who want to be in IT, be in IT and be done with it?

In my opinion there is no need for a quota, because its not going to make a huge difference first off, on the amount of woman in the IT field. Granted, I think it will bring some type of awareness and possibly encourage some woman to think about getting into the IT field, but its not a guarantee and or a solution like others have stated to balance the woman to man ratio out in IT. Being a woman in the IT field and working in it for over the past 10 years, I find that a fair amount of woman lack the interest in the IT field. Its just not their forte or they don't have the desire to pursue a career in IT. I agree with someones statement that in the next 10 - 15 years we are going to see an influx of woman in IT. I feel its because we are moving towards a society that completely rely's on technology and we can not ignore that fact. It will then become a necessity to understand technology and gain an interest in it. Especially, if you want to be employed. In closing, there is one change I think could help encourage more woman to join the IT field and that is the pay scale needs to change. Woman should get paid what a man gets paid doing the same job. But that's another topic.

I would also be offended if I were hired based on gender. My advice to lawmakers would be to start offering incentives for women to get into the IT field of study. Not to enforce quotas. Companies should have the freedom to select the best candidate for the job from a wide and diverse pool.