Discussion on:

Add a self-made Start button to the Windows 8 desktop

With this little hack you can get your Start Menu back or at least a reasonable facsimile - are you going to try it?

In Windows XP, Vista and 7, "All Programs" off the start menu had folders for applications, or groups of applications (e.g., all Open Office apps in one folder, all my printer utilities in another folder, etc.) It seems in all the screen shots that the list of apps is a flat list. I have over 400 entries, all logically grouped in about 50 folders in my All Programs menu. To have to scroll through such a huge list seems very inefficient. Is there still a way of having similar behaviour in Windows 8?

Before anyone suggests it, I don't think that typing in the first few characters is very effective, because I cannot always remember the name of some oddly-named utility, which is why I have it in a folder named by function (such as Network Utils).

Open control panel ,go to personalization,click on task bar,click on desktop and apply. When now go to desktop you will find a desktop icon on the task bar that will list in one place everything you can think of from programs to settings. If you dont like just a few clicks and you are back to hunting around for things . I hope this helps you and others .

they are at C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs
Make a shortcut and pin it to the start menu.

Yes!!!!! This is exactly my position, with 300+ programs and odd utils that I need, you describe the way I have my box organized. Another reason to avoid the Win8 UI.

Create a new toolbar (right click the taskbar -> toolbars -> new toolbar) with the link to the start menu (C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs). That was the solution offered in a previous one of these discussions and I find it a great answer.

Don't ever uncheck that box if you do all of your work constructing the "new toolbar" will be lost. At least that is what happened to me on the consumer preview.

Maybe someone will write a shell with the Windows 7 UI fully implemented?

After all, Linix has a few different shells. Why not Windows?

nt

How about just installing Windows 7 instead of a "shell"? You can still buy it AND it's still priced like it was new so you can feel like you're still relevant.

nt

the same is said about XP but you can still buy that, too. Just $100 for 7 Home Premium. Ernie, you can keep your dad's Cadillac Brougham. No need to go out and buy the XTS.

here's how I checked

www.microsoft. com - - click on the hot link 'Store' -- click on the hot link 'Windows'

and you get a full page ad about Win 8 with a line 'Like Windows 7 only better' with all the prices.

Hover over the hot link on the left that says 'Windows' and you get the choice of two links "Windows 8' or 'Windows 8 Pro' - nowhere in the store is there Windows 7 available for sale or download.

I have left countless links to purchase Windows 7. If you are searching on Microsoft's Australia site it might be a different case there. Though from what I hear your Chinese neighbors can get you Windows 7 for a few dollars... even Aussie dollars.

Update: The Microsoft Store has Windows Home Premium for $119 (http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/pd/Windows-7-Home-Premium/productID.235488300/vip.true), Windows 7 Professional starting at $199 (http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/pd/Windows-7-Professional/productID.216645600/vip.true), and Windows 7 Ultimate starting at $219 (http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/pd/Windows-7-Ultimate/productID.216647200/vip.true).

go to the Microsoft store online, enter "Windows 7" in the search box. It's still there.

here's how I checked

www.microsoft. com - - click on the hot link 'Store' -- click on the hot link 'Windows'

and you get a full page ad about Win 8 with a line 'Like Windows 7 only better' with all the prices.

Hover over the hot link on the left that says 'Windows' and you get the choice of two links "Windows 8' or 'Windows 8 Pro' - nowhere in the store is there Windows 7 available for sale or download.

on the Microsoft online store is unclear?

about Windows 7 in the footer area, and even did some searching via their search box and they did turn up some downloads for extras and the like. They also found some pages that no longer link in to anything else, as if they're old ones that are no longer valid.

Are you suggesting Microsoft are NOT showing everything for sale in their Store in the proper Store pages?

Anyway, average users will follow the basic front door access, which is what I did, and MS do not have Win 7 for sale any more.

BTW My son has an old link for a free three month trial version of Win 7 Enterprise that still takes you direct to the page which has no other links to it or from it.

You can still purchase Windows 7 from Microsoft.

In the store enter a search for Windows 7 and you will see links for the various versions of 7. Click on the link and purchase.

Example:

http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/en_US/pd/ThemeID.27509700/productID.216645600

nt

I even put a copy of windows 7 pro in my virtual shopping cart to prove it to myself. I can even order it from my smartphone.
End of discussion

The Microsoft Store has Windows Home Premium for $119 (http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/pd/Windows-7-Home-Premium/productID.235488300/vip.true), Windows 7 Professional starting at $199 (http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/pd/Windows-7-Professional/productID.216645600/vip.true), and Windows 7 Ultimate starting at $219 (http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/pd/Windows-7-Ultimate/productID.216647200/vip.true).

here's how I checked and found Microsoft don't sell Win 7 any more - despite some old pages that aren't part of their shop now.

www.microsoft. com - - click on the hot link 'Store' -- click on the hot link 'Windows'

and you get a full page ad about Win 8 with a line 'Like Windows 7 only better' with all the prices.

Hover over the hot link on the left that says 'Windows' and you get the choice of two links "Windows 8' or 'Windows 8 Pro' - nowhere in the store is there Windows 7 available for sale or download.

I can't believe this Deadly Earnest guy, creating more "heat" than "light." CLEARLY..... Win7 is available for sale, from multiple weblinks. And all of them appear to be from the official microsoftstore.com website, as many respondents have already pointed out, to no avail. The earth is still turning, the sky has not fallen, and Win7 has not disappeared. Yet this guy just goes on and on, harping on about how you cannot buy this stuff that's obviously for sale, regardless of whether it was bought through "basic front door access" (whatever that means -- a jumble of words that can mean anything to anyone). AGAIN... for those a little slow or hard of hearing.... search by the method that JJFitz helpfully recommended (above).

Q. "Are you suggesting Microsoft are NOT showing everything for sale in their Store in the proper Store pages?"
A. Yes. Obviously Microsoft, like most corporations, has one hand not knowing what the other hand is doing. And does not cross-list every Win7 link on every page (nor should they, when Win8 is the main promotion). As JJFitz said, end of discussion.

A week or so ago I would have been all over this.

I'm getting tired of aiming for where the Start button used to be and clicking the first icon on the tool bar instead. Also, I've moved my Taskbar to left side, but of course the Start Screen hotspot remains in the bottom left. Now when habit sends me to the top left for the Start menu, I get neither it nor the Start Screen option. This button would eliminate both of those problems. But I took an oath to learn how MS intended this product to be used. Still, it feels like I'm fighting with it every inch of the way.

As i asked elsewhere, if all I'm going to do with the Start Screen is use it as an overgrown Start menu, is there any reason to not schedule the traditional desktop at boot and add this button? Maybe the Start Screen is capable of more and I'm just not aware of it. Maybe I'm aware of all it does, but nothing besides starting programs fits the way I use a computer.

I continue to maintain that removing all Start button functionality is sheer idiocy. People keep creating these types of hacks to get the "Start Menu" back, or writing programs that bring it back when all we really need is for MS to restore the functionality and give desktop/laptop users the choice of which one they want to use.

OR, hear me out, OR people can just install Windows 7 and use that.

I'm bookmarking this, might use it in our images.

Gods of us all, you're not deploying this, are you? What are you using, Ghost? Supposedly SCCM won't capture a W8 image yet.

A future plan maybe. To ease the transition. Also, this is a good idea for people using touch as well, touching is easier than "flicking?".

seems like a lot of hand-wringing over a minor change to me.... the future is coming, better to go with it than try to hold on to the past...

nt

nt

Palmetto gave me this link before.
It is very helpful in understanding where windows has come from and where it is going.
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/05/18/creating-the-windows-8-user-experience.aspx

and they don't really care about the desktop or the traditional business environment productivity processes at all. Well, that's what i get from the blog.

Thanks for the link.

"The Windows 8 user experience is forward-looking, yet respectful of the past. It reimagines what a PC is capable of, the scenarios for which it is optimized, and how you interact with it. It enables tablets and laptops that are incredibly light and thin, with excellent battery life, which you can use with touch and keyboard and mouse in any combination you prefer. It is also the most capable, lean, and usable OS ever to power desktop PCs and gaming rigs."

It may be capable and lean but it is NOT the most usable OS for a desktop PC or gaming rig

I am using Windows 8 on my custom built gaming PC. I upgraded the OS from Windows 7 to Windows 8 and I use it to play Call of Duty Black Ops II. The PC performance and game response are superb.
The PC boots up seconds and I am in the game in less than one minute.
Windows 7 on the exact same machine was never that fast.
I call that very usable.

I tried using a Win 8 trial copy and found it took longer to reach the applications and was horrid to look at due to the huge icons on the desktop. I've seen it on a tablet and it looked OK on the eight inch screen, but on the 24 inch monitor it was just ugly. The decreased productivity in regards to non touch applications were a major issue, and I hate to think how big a problem trying to use a large touch screen would be for my arms and shoulders.

(nt)

what I and many others have experienced with it. Who wrote made it a definitive statement as if it was a law of nature or a fact, and it isn't.

nt

the replies, don't it. And when you hit the take off line everyone gets confused about what the hell is going on in the new thread.

Are you listening TechRepublic?

nt

Weird how that works, innit?

Hold onto the past but whine incessently about the present (8 is here right now).

nt

Look what happened to Vista. There is no reason to whine, you either use what Microsoft puts out or keep using what you have. There is no law saying you have to use Windows 8. They will support Windows 7 for another 5 years, you can pick the newer version, Windows 9. They may have had time to notice the shrinking numbers and made a better version.

to consider alternatives, thus the need to comment.

BTW I do not use Windows at all now.

Edit to add - but am rebuilding a Win 98SE box to play some old games that won't work on any latter version of Windows.

"Edit to add - but am rebuilding a Win 98SE box to play some old games that won't work on any latter version of Windows."

So you're happy with an alternative OS and you are building a box with an unsupported 14 year old Windows OS.

Does that about sum it up?

Thanks

older games I'd like to play again and the best way to play them will be on the original OS which is Win 9x - thus I'm rebuilding a box, not yet put it all together due to other constraints on my time. The Win 9x games system will NOT be connected to the Internet, although it's likely to be safer than most of the modern Windows systems as the viruses that attack modern systems won't work on it.

So, I do NOT use a Windows system at all now - very plain and true, but am planning to have an old one for a games box - which is why I mentioned it. It is possible I may end up making the games box a DOS 6 one instead of Win 9x, it will depend on what will run on it after I build it.

nt

I then said I plan to build an old Windows game box - but that's for the future and not what's happening now - why is that so hard for you to work out and understand?

When corporate leaves MSoft, they will not come back. Many are still angry at Vista. No, I think this is the end of MSoft as the big guy.

Most companies just stuck with XP until Windows 7 came out. Microsoft has a strong foothold on the Enterprise. If you want corporate to drop Microsoft desktop, you will need a replacement that works significantly better than it on a Microsoft corporate network because Microsoft dominates the front end and the back end.
Linux has made some in roads but it's still very small compared to Microsoft.

I've visited businesses still using Vista. Once all the bugs were service packed they simply remained with Vista. I tend to upgrade my organization after a period of time but most businesses will continue until replacement parts are scarce or new technology is absolutely required.

Is run on most internet hosting companies computers, it's run at IBM, and other large companies. 8 of ten servers runs Linux. It's just the sheep are convinced that ms Windows is the "only game in town" for business desktops because it's all they've ever seen at home, except Apple, which isn't very strong in business AT ALL.
With Microsoft's now introducing an App store likke Apple (basically) where you have to pay for each and every component, it simply doesn't make sense to use them anymore, when free alternatives are sufficient. They're in it for the money, not for the vision of the future. Don't let anyone convince you otherwise, they have NEVER had their customers needs in mind, just the almighty dollar.
Time to stop the madness.

Need a shut down better more than a start button. Any way to do that?

Win 8 on my Aspire One has a shutdown button already pinned to the Taskbar. Maybe that's just something Acer did for its netbook version. I haven't seen any other versions of Win 8.

I'll try this hack because I like having a legacy Start screen for the netbook. Thank you, Greg. I don't like the idea of paying to add a Start screen.

The New Win 8 Start screen with its smartphone tile interface is a problem on my netbook because I have to scroll to the right to see the tiles over there, which is as pointless to me as having a touchscreen monitor on a desktop. After I moved all the important tiles to the left, I was able to access the Acer Desktop tile as soon as the tiled Start screen showed up.

Except for the missing legacy Start screen, I don't have any problems with Win 8's GUI. It seems intuitive enough, but because it was built for touch screens, it's not convenient for desktops or notebooks and netbooks.

And since I'm on the topic of touchscreens, I have to say that I bought an ASUS- Google Nexus 7 the other day, tried it out for an hour, got really POed by having to put my fingers all over the screen, and then just gave it (and the 3G SIMM card it needs) to my 16-year-old for Xmas. He loves Android and knew just what to do with it, but I hated it. Give me Windows any day (that doesn't mean that I love MS, just that I have no problems whatsoever understanding how to use Windows even though some of the ways in which the OS and its (and MS Office's) contemporary Win7 & Win8 GUIs have changed are annoyingly whimsical and pointlessly novel.

Make a shortcut to shutdown.exe.
Right click on the desktop screen and choose New > Shortcut.
Fill in the "Type the location of the item:" box with one of the following:
shutdown (logs of the current user)
shutdown -s (shuts down the computer)
shutdown -r (reboots after shutdown)
shutdown -t xx (sets the timer for system shutdown in xx seconds. The default is 20 seconds.)
You can combine the switches and have fun
For example: shutdown.exe -r -t 10 reboots the computer after 10 seconds.

Make the button pretty.
Right click the shortcut
choose properties
choose Change Icon
click OK if it complains
browse for an appropriate icon
click OK
click OK

Put it on the taskbar
Right click the shortcut
Choose Pin to Taskbar

Put it on the Start Screen
Right click the shortcut
Choose Pin to Start

Now you can shutdown from the desktop, taskbar, and start screen.

Have fun!

If you go into the Settings, Control Panel, System and Security, you'll see "Change what the power buttons do" under Power Options. You should be able to configure it for Windows 8 physical installations. On my Hyper-V install it is locked to either "Shut down" or "Do nothing".

I may not know what's new in W8, but I know what's already there in W7 and before.

Its a very old feature.
I'm not sure i 95 supported it, all my 95 machines had the old switch style.

But for about a year, I ran win98 on a 2.6 ghz machine before I finally got XP on it.

Goggle "superfast shutdown" - and install. Two quick ways to: reboot or shutdown. It's been on every machine I have had since XP.

As for the missing Start Button and menu, google "iobit startmenu8" - you'll never look back: almost the same and free...

Thanks for this: exactly what I was missing (from Win 8 pro). Everything I want in one easy place; truly excellent thank you.
Next pain is how to get out of some programs that take up the whole of the screen; at present the only way out is to use the Windows key - grrrrrrrrrrrrrr

it sounds like you're trying to close some of the new 'Metro-style' applications. If that's the case, move your cursor to the top center of the display. Click and drag down to the bottom of the screen, then release.

No, there is absolutely nothing in any previous Windows experience that would have prepared you for that.

If you want to close something, how about a big red "X" If you want to minimize it how about a nice minus button? and to resize how about a grab bar that YOU CAN SEE at the corner of a window? That way you can resize multiple windows to fit on one screen. Also, why would you want a menu to take up the whole screen and obscure open programs, when you could simply have cascading menus operating off of a simple button, such as .. whoa, what a concept.. a START button?
Also, I object to EVER using the Windows key, it's too easy to hit accidentally while typing, interrupting what you're doing. Making it NOW OBSCURE THE ENTIRE screen makes me want to RIP IT OFF the keyboard even more than I ever have before (and I've ripped them off of multiple keyboards, believe me.)

Go through all these steps, for something that should NEVER have been removed.

WIN 8 is not productive nor are any of the METRO styles, for our business style, we DON'T use touch and phones are phones not computers.

Microsoft have lost us as a client, here is what we have done....

Moved our users (115) to a flavour of Linux "Zorin 6" which has a UI that looks and works like WIN7.

We purchased Zorin 6 Ultimate with DVD media for NZ$30.00 and it has applications also When we can move to Linux flavor Zorin 6 Ultimate, "http://zorin-os.com/premium.html" for NZ$30.00 with DVD and Support per seat.

This includes Libra Office and a full range of Applications Business, Multimedia, Gaming, you don't need to purchase anything else.

And we will also be purchasing Ubuntu Server Advanced loaded or Zental Server "https://store.zentyal.com/" with all options.

The cost saving per user is around NZ$800.00 per user, and the server well we were very surprised, and our accountant loved the savings to the balance sheet.

Simple answer. Because of people like you. The Start Menu is a left over. With more people using tablets and smartphones the concept of looking for your applications in a menu is old school. Microsoft made the change because people complained the Start Menu was to messy, slow and basically not needed. If change makes you uncomfortable then IT may be the wrong career for you.

Changing from Windows to a Linux distro is no change at all, status quo really. Clearly change makes him uncomfortable. You certainly told him off didn't you...

Sorry but by enlarge, Computing is still done on desktops. Even the majority of laptop users never actually move their machines so they are just stylish desktops.. I have yet to see any professional write out a proposal or a presentation on a tablet. While these portable devices "may" have a place in the market, this is not where the work gets done. I have a great and powerful tablet... where is it? Sitting next to the stack of AOL CD's with dead batteries because after all the bling bling cool factor wears off, I am forced back to my desktop to actually get my work done. If I need access to files for quick reference... My new android phone (something I can carry without a huge fanny pack) fills that hole. I am forever seeing people trying to justify their expense and go through great pains to find some usefulness in them but eventually they end up back at the desktop. Touch based systems are great for handhelds.. but the laptop and desktop? We are going to have a whole lot of people with aching arms and shoulders from stretching to touch their nice ridiculously expensive touch screen monitors. As for the Start menu. All Operating systems including Ubuntu and MAC have an application launcher that does NOT steal the entire screen when you want to use it. Every time you hit the start button you get the impression that you just dumped out of when you were working in. EVERY OS has an application launcher. MACs have the bar and the Apps fly out ubuntu has their whacked version too and Gnome and KDE have standard application menus (start menu). The windows 8 start screen is nothing but a poorly planned, poorly organized, "slap a coat of paint on it and hope no one notices" attempt to be different. Virtually everyone from the developer preview to the consumer preview had been saying the metro interface was a colossal mistake. They could (and in my opinion should have) offered it as an "add-on" theme... made default on touch devices but not on the desktop version.

Assume by "by enlarge" you meant "by and large"...

Where it still categorizes the start menu, but doesn't make it look click-able, they just look like a few text entries in the start menu?

they're imitating. I'm using the Windows 2000 imitation at the moment and it looks and works exactly like my old Won 2K start menu does.

I noticed that the start menu...
when opened....

the right side looked the same as XP, but the left side showed software categories as plane text. giving no indication that they are click-able or expandable. A very windows 8 like problem. If I knew how to take screenshots in Zorin I would get a screenshot for you.

folder, it should open up with the apps - the same as that menu did in the Windows version.

I can show you what I mean when I get back to work where my Zorin disc is.

program called Save Screenshot, then just enter a name etc and save. You may have to check if you have it loaded or not.

The start button opens a text list of hot links, some a links to other lists and some are program launchers. If it has a black triangle on the right-hand side of the list, it's a folder type link. Hovering over a link should cause the list it opens to appear beside it, if you've not got the hover capability activated in the Properties, then clicking on the text link should open the list. The same process applies with the text items in the sub-window list too. If you have a few folders or levels it continues that way until you click on an application launcher.

I've got to rebuild and convert an old system I was recently given, so I'll try to remember and take screen shots as I go and do them up as a document to put up for people to look at.

I'd send you screenshots of my system, but I've got mine done up in a very personalised way that's very little like any of the standards. Might do that anyway.

Maybe the windows 2000 one has more visual cues to what is click-able.

You don't have to.
It looks like you found your solution.

Why did you switch to Zorin to get a Windows 7 interface? Couldn't you have stayed with Windows 7? When you get new peripherals will you be writing device drivers in-house? How much would it have cost to stay with Windows 7?

I use the Windows 7 Interface as I don't like the Gnome one and didn't pay for the version with Windows 2000 / Classic Interface, of the four available I prefer the Win 7 to look at over the Vista.

I have a client who has the Premium set up with the Win XP Interface and he uses WINE to run a few XP applications he needs for his business. They run well in WINE but don't run well in Win 7 XP Mode. Most of his staff don't realise Zorin OS isn't a new Windows version as it looks so like what they're used to.

The cost saving is great as well.

I suspect it's a good business strategy for you - staying out of the mainstream - because it makes your clients dependent on YOU. Not so sure it's a good business strategy for the clients, however. But, hey, the revolution has to start somewhere, doesn't it?

of the service calls to fix glitches etc. And they're happy that all their older peripherals work again.

It's probably saving them thousands of dollars. Even paying for the premium release of Zorin, they're saving software costs, as there are no (or minimal) licensing costs for the server seats, office suite, and other application software.

The vast majority of business users only need basic text and spreadsheet functions. Wordpad provides the first, and any basic spreadsheet program provides the second. For my part, I've never used the more complex functions available in any office suite. Heck, I don't know any spreadsheet users who have used more functions than sum() and count().

nt

My suggestion that a Zorin implementation might not be good for clients stems from my own situation. I'm basically a retired Data-Center, Desktop, Database manager for a very large company, who now supports a handful of small businesses, mostly for fun and to provide enough pocket change to support my tech habit. In my case, I'm keenly aware of the need for continuity for my clients, for when/if I decide to pull out of the game, altogether. Thus, I am not prone to leading clients down a non-mainstream path. Instead, I steer them down a path of simplifying their Microsoft environments by removing unnecessary servers and/or services (especially Exchange) and moving them to a cloud environment instead (e.g. Office 365). Note: They are all very small businesses, of 10 users or less.

I admit I have no experience with Zorin, and little experience with Linux, other than the Ubuntu Server I am running at home. Mea culpa...

Certainly a useful shortcut for the task bar. Combined with the fact that users can move the mouse to bottom left of the screen to get back to the start screen it gives users a nice experience and satisfies those who love to complain everytime something changes.

People, people, people

Time to change - and if you really like the start menu (same as me), I now just have to go with my mouse (no touchscreen yet) to the bottom left hand corner and the start screen - so much better than a start menu casue of the the brilliant functions) - appreas and I can click on it!!!

Also my desktop button on my start screen is bottom left - so it is easy to move to desktop mode!!

What a lovel Operating system - this Windows 8!!!!!

I would never use Windows 8 - I am a Linux lover - however I respect people who see a problem for users and then find a solution - looks nice and uses the OS features - god work.

Nice Article.
When will Microsoft realise that The speed gained in start-up is lost in the first few minutes of use. More movements to do the same, You now need two hands, so one hand on the phone and one hand on the mouse to do things is impossible. I predict the most used phrase for 2013 will be
"Do you mind being put on hold while I use two hands on the keyboard?"

Don't even get me started on Office 2013 headache - Literally!

Did the distribution media leap off the desk and hit you in the head?

have moved to gave them the headache.

Eyestrain, yes. Headahce? No.

I've been running it less than a day. it seems to be harder to differentiate between various areas of an application window. I don't know if that's inherent, or due to my specifically not installing any of Office themes and not selecting a pattern / color scheme.

.. to make the new Start Screen not come up as a full screen menu when I want to access some shortcuts etc (one Start screen alternative does that but it seems unstable right now). The fact that it's all full screen is the only reason I don't use the new Start (and that I have no interest to use those apps), since opening my most common programs was done by bringing up old Start and using the pinned shortcuts, which was not interrupting. :/

I made the same idea last June 17, 2012. This one brings up the Start metro window
http://wall.jaysonragasa.net/wall/post/2012/06/17/Windows-8-One-Tap-Start-Launch.aspx

The Windows 8 interface looks more like a "tech person's" view on the world. Many of my clients are expressing frustration and it is not just the change management issues either. I appreciate what Microsoft has attempted to do, but by adding the complexity of looking for your Start menu is in my opinion a retrograde step. People world-wide are used to the terms of start menu and desktop, this version seems to play with what are the key features of Windows.

Many of my clients are now seriously considering the switch to Apple as the alternative. They are finding the constant changes too much to cope with, and many of their new recruits fresh from University are already singing Apples praises. Furthermore the seamless transition between their disparate devices makes the movement more natural.

Forgot to say thanks to Greg for explaining this!

It's the "MENU" as opposed to tiles and screens. Come up with a way to remove the butt-ugly tiles and allow me to do what I wish to with MY desktop(s), Now that might be useful. I won't be installing ANYTHING that has a remote resemblance to Windows Mobile on any of my equipment.
All of you embracing this sea change just because Steve Ballmer shoves it down your collective throats are so busy with your mouths open to suck it on down that you fail to see (or even sense) anything beyond the stated reason MS publishes about why.

Get used to sliding your little tiles around, each of you, on all of your computing devices which all work the same, function the same and look the same across the board. The only way you are going to know one from another is whatever decoration you put on the exterior of the device. Fact. Windows 8 is just as bland and uninteresting as the new Windows Logo. The computers you own with MS products are no longer Personal. They are appliances given to you (at great cost I might add) by a corporation that regards you and your digital footprint as their golden egg. You just don't realize to what extent yet. Good luck with MS and your wallet.





.............................................................................. Moving on

Just stay with Windows 7. In fact, since Microsoft doesn't read any of this your only bet is to not upgrade to Windows 8 to keep sales of the new OS down. That's the way the market works, right? The market doesn't custom make stuff for you. You simply purchase what you like and don't purchase what you don't like. So stay with Windows 7.

have only Win 8 on them with no way to convert to Win 7.

When I go to the Microsoft store online and enter Windows 7 in the search box, it looks like I can still buy it directly from them.
When I go to Amazon.com and type in "Windows 7", I see a lot of other places where I can buy it.
When I go to a store, I still see Windows 7 on the shelf.
When I go online to Dell.com, I can pick Windows 7 and see plenty of computers that are still being sold with that OS.

Are you saying that you can't buy a computer with Windows 8 pre-installed and go backwards to Windows 7? You can't reformat the hard drive and do a fresh install?

hmmm

I seem to remember users didn't like the Start button when they moved from Windows 3.x. Maybe that's the next Windows 8 hack?

My initial impression of Metro months ago was that it looked like W3's Program Manager, except that PM gave you more control over the arrangement of icons and icon groups.

It just doesn't open in a Fileman window. The special Fileman window replaced the desktop.

I use Classic shell to bring back a more productive mouse/keyboard interface and VLC to provide DVD playback. Unless you want to buy/use a touch screen, that is what you can easily and freely download. It makes me laugh all these people saying get with the new interface, get with the times etc. The operating system should be able to be personalized for individual use (PC=Personal computer) except for corporate systems that have to have it locked down.

(A sardonic comment) All those people are probably laughing at you since you moved to Windows 8 when you could have stayed with Windows 7.

MS does NOT sell Win 7 any more and the majority of new OEM systems are all Win 8.

Amazon does. So does Newegg and TigerDirect and many, many more online retailers. Any Windows 8 PC you buy at a brick and mortar can be downgraded from the OEM's website. I'm sorry, what were you saying?

having Amazon accounts or a local Newegg or TigerDirect

NT

here's how I did it

www.microsoft. com - - click on the hot link 'Store' -- click on the hot link 'Windows'

and you get a full page ad about Win 8 with a line 'Like Windows 7 only better' with all the prices.

Hover over the hot link on the left that says 'Windows' and you get the choice of two links "Windows 8' or 'Windows 8 Pro' - nowhere in the store is there Windows 7 available for sale or download.

I've heard this song before.
Why the rehash?

Your post encouraged me to look at other options. This guid is

Show the desktop: {3080F90D-D7AD-11D9-BD98-0000947B0257}
Public folder: {4336a54d-038b-4685-ab02-99bb52d3fb8b}
User accounts: {60632754-c523-4b62-b45c-4172da012619}
Network and Sharing: {8E908FC9-BECC-40f6-915B-F4CA0E70D03D}
System: {BB06C0E4-D293-4f75-8A90-CB05B6477EEE}
Action Center: {BB64F8A7-BEE7-4E1A-AB8D-7D8273F7FDB6}
Language: {BF782CC9-5A52-4A17-806C-2A894FFEEAC5}
Admin Tools: {D20EA4E1-3957-11d2-A40B-0C5020524153}
Power Options: {025A5937-A6BE-4686-A844-36FE4BEC8B6D}
Taskbar Icons: {05d7b0f4-2121-4eff-bf6b-ed3f69b894d9}
Pinned shortcuts: {1f3427c8-5c10-4210-aa03-2ee45287d668}
Remote apps: {241D7C96-F8BF-4F85-B01F-E2B043341A4B}
Search: {2559a1f0-21d7-11d4-bdaf-00c04f60b9f0}
Security: {2559a1f2-21d7-11d4-bdaf-00c04f60b9f0}
Run: {2559a1f3-21d7-11d4-bdaf-00c04f60b9f0}
Computer defaults: {2559a1f7-21d7-11d4-bdaf-00c04f60b9f0}
Alt-Tab: {3080F90E-D7AD-11D9-BD98-0000947B0257}
Windows update: {36eef7db-88ad-4e81-ad49-0e313f0c35f8}
Firewall: {4026492F-2F69-46B8-B9BF-5654FC07E423}

For those like julie (and me) stuff like 'Classic Shell' is a more effective solution that just tweaking for a start button, giving you a full menu driven directory structure. Quite right, though, to say that this should be a config option in Win8 as standard. Microsoft pandering to the finger teenies while ignoring power users ;o)

Thank you @thenetdoctor,

It looks like Classic Shell will indeed provide what I'm looking for. It does seem more than a little incongruous that in order to get similar functionality to Windows 7 that we have to change Windows 8 to look like XP. Ah, the price of progress ...

If only MS had left the flat tile-based UI for phones and tablets (where it may be useful). I believe that MS is doing a great disservice to anybody who uses a computer for much more than web browsing. It will also be very interesting to see how people's arms and shoulder's feel after using a touch screen in a desktop setting 8 hours every day.

For now, I'm sticking with Windows 7 for as long as I can, but I imagine that my next PC will come with Windows 8, and I may have little choice ...

We used to call it "gorilla arm".

Who would keep their arms up all the time?
You would only need to lift your arm to use the non-required touch screen when you need to perform an action.
This is similar to the complaint people had about the mouse years ago.
"My hands are on the keyboard. My arms will get tired moving back and forth to the mouse."

A more effective solution is to install Windows 7 or not upgrade to Windows 8.

nt

You know on the Internet they have these search engines that finds facts which quickly make anything you write completely wrong.

also, not everyone uses Amazon. Most users buy PCs from local brick and mortar stores

Is someone paying you to spread false rumors?

here's how most people check it

www.microsoft. com - - click on the hot link 'Store' -- click on the hot link 'Windows'

and you get a full page ad about Win 8 with a line 'Like Windows 7 only better' with all the prices.

Hover over the hot link on the left that says 'Windows' and you get the choice of two links "Windows 8' or 'Windows 8 Pro' - nowhere in the store is there Windows 7 available for sale or download.

http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/en_US/pd/ThemeID.27509700/productID.216645600

To say that Microsoft doesn't still sell Win 7 is incorrect. However, to say that they "hide" the fact on their website would be quite correct. You have to search for it in the search-bar on their store site.

Yet, that still doesn't satisfy the non-corporate user who doesn't have downgrade rights to the O/S on the systems they are buying. What good does it do me to be able to buy Win 7 in order to install it over the Win 8 O/S that came with my new PC? That requires me to purchase a second O/S and add considerably to the cost of the PC. Its not really a practical solution - especially for the non-tech user.

And, even if there are still "hundreds" of Win 7 boxes available, in stores and/or online, for how long will they be available? Just try to buy a Vista machine in the past couple years (then again, who'd want to), not to mention XP. Just aint gonna happen.

Microsoft has always operated this way - as I suspect most vendors do - so this is nothing new. Bottom line - if Win 8 is a bad product, it will fail (e.g. Vista). However, I for one don't think it is a bad product at all. That doesn't mean that Microsoft won't make "Start" options more configurable in a later release...

I respect the boldness of the moves that Microsoft is making. I acknowledge that often as not they don't "get it right" at first, but at least they keep trying (you only have to be right 51% of the time to be a winner). Their Office 365 offerings, with Exchange Online, Office Web Apps, Azure, and the like, are clear examples of them leveraging products they have and markets they own to launch into cloud based services. I think that this move with the desktop is another bold attempt by Microsoft to follow market trends. With their cloud offerings, it has already proven to be successful. With this desktop move, and move to become an equipment manufacturer... well, time will tell.

I think that within the next few years, all "desktop" systems will become portable (tablets), and that the mouse will become a thing of the past - replaced by touch-screen. The "tablet" will be the touch-screen that replaces the mouse. There may still be a larger Hi-Def screen connected while at the office, and that screen may or may not be touch enabled, but the tablet itself will still be "the computer" even in that environment.

Since various touch actions translate the same as mouse clicks, legacy software still works in this environment.

If the vision I have is correct, then I think Microsoft is moving in exactly the right direction. Hey, even the almighty Apple makes mistakes - think Maps!

I think this is an exciting time in the world of computing!

You may be correct in your prediction that the desktop will yield to portable devices, but only for the day-to-day end user. Businesses will still require desktops with keyboard and mouse.

until I can get a good notebook and a nice price with a 26 inch 16 x 8 screen with a terrabyte of hard drive I need to stay with my current desktop to do my image manipulation work and story writing and editing. Somehow I doubt I'll get a suitable mobile replacement at a reasonable price.

Maybe because businesses specifically don't want the computer to be easy to take? You are probably right, for quite some time yet. But when desktops were my responsibility for over 1200 of them spread throughout North America, 1) we were always looking for smaller boxes, to conserve space, 2) the most rapidly growing form-factor was laptops so people could work from home and/or on the road, and 3) we never almost never upgraded, once the PC was purchased - so we didn't really nred extra bays and slots.

I'm just not so sure that touch-screen, implemented the right way, isn't more efficient than mouse. If it is, then business will eventually get there. But, I admit, I don't see anybody else making that prediction...

oh gah, not again

What happens when the guy next door buys a new computer and discovers he hates Win 8? He not only doesn't know how to perform an OS downgrade without losing data, he doesn't even know about OS downgrades. Since he doesn't have you in his family to tell him exactly what to do, where does he go? Who does he talk to? He doesn't know about Newegg or TigerDirect and has heard of Frys but lives six hundred miles from the closest one.

People have valid complaints about the changes in the Win8 interface and how it affects their productivity, but rather than offer reasonable solutions, or even actual help, you offer facile platitudes and insults. Are you incapable of more?

He can learn to use Windows 8 and be pleasantly surprised.
He can complain to someone who can roll it back for him.
He can return the computer.

The retail stores only have what the OEMs ship, which is Win 8.

nt

nt

but searching Dell.com for 'Windows 7' lists 73 models of laptop and 40 models of desktop. Expanding either of those categories does reveals a number of mistaken hits, not many.

You'll need to remove the spaces around 'DELL' in the URL.

http://search. dell .com/results.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=gen&cat=prod&k=windows+7&rpp=12&p=1&subcat=sys%2fdesktops&rf=all&nk=f&sort=K&ira=False&~srd=False&ipsys=False&advsrch=False&~ck=anav

their on-line store with Win 7, but none of the local stores around my area can place an order with Dell for a system with Win 7, when they ring up they get told - "Sorry, can only ship Win 8 now." Most basic users don't buy on line, they go to the local bricks and mortar store to see what's available - and that where I said most users can't buy new Win 7 systems now - I apologise if I was not clear enough on that.

BTW at one time Dell Aust were not selling any Win 7 systems on line, but are again at the moment, but not the full range.

Apparently we have different definitions of the word 'few'. I might use it to describe 100 individual units, but not over 100 different models. And I didn't even check the 'scratch and dent' outlet, and gods know there are plenty of other vendors besides Dell.

I don't know why you're hung up on demonstrating MS doesn't show W7 on its 'Windows' home page. Would you go to a new car dealer if you wanted to buy last year's model?

Just because MS doesn't display it on their 'Windows' page doesn't mean you can't buy it elsewhere. I Googled 'Windows 7' and clicked the 'Shopping' link. i found Home Premium for less than $100 US from several reputable dealers. Some were brick and mortar chains. While I doubt they have it on the shelves, you can often place a special order online and have it delivered to a local store (often at no additional charge).

I'm with you on most of your complaints with W8; I have many of the same ones. W7 probably won't be available for long, only while dealers are clearing out their inventory. No, vendors won't be building any more W7 systems. But W7 -is- still -currently- available for sale, both pre-installed and as media. I'll agree that how long is anyone's guess.

that any user can go out and just get Win 7 instead of Win 8 if they don't like Win 8 - I've being pointing out it isn't like that at all. For some of us with the contact and the knowledge to go beyond the average shopping system we can do it, hell, I even know where I can still buy unopened packs of Win XP SP3.

Buying Win 7 now is not something any user can do by just going down the local store. They have to find someone with old stocks to do so, and they aren't evenly spread or available everywhere. Also, what's available in the USA is not representative of what's available around the world, either.

However, a large part of my contrariness on this is the blas attitude and claims of some people in saying "Don't like Win 8, don't complain, just go back to using Win 7." That attitude shows they think everyone just goes and gets the latest version of Windows as they come out, when the truth is many will be skipping a lot due to them working a system to death before buying a replacement. The condescending twits can get stuffed.

And if they want to keep repeating something not true in the hopes people will believe it, I'll keep countering their claims.

Can you point me in the direction of MS DOS 6.1? I want to play Tanks again and the stupid game won't run right in DR DOS or FreeDOS, I thought I already had it, but Disk 2 is corrupted, dang it!

And 3.5, not 5.25! C'mon by at your convenience!

Or at the Switch?

See you Monday morning!

but I can go to several local computer stores with very knowledgeable and helpful sales staff and purchase laptops and desktops with Windows 7 pre-installed.
A quick look at Micro Center online (a very popular retail chain in my area) indicates that there are 16 laptop and 35 desktop models available with Windows 7 pre-installed. They carry models from all of the popular manufacturers (Dell, Asus, Acer, Toshiba, Samsung, and HP). That's not counting the refurbished models.
You can also purchase 4 different versions of Windows 7 there.
The sales staff are very knowledgeable and very helpful. They have to be knowledgeable, their store is located next to MIT.
They are well versed in Linux and Apple OS and iOS as well.
I feel confident that anyone who walked in that store would get a computer that met their needs.
There's a local "Mom & Pop" computer store less than a mile from my house that will sell Windows 7 and custom build a desktop with Windows 7 for you too.
The Big Box stores are usually not as helpful or knowledgeable. My guess is that they wouldn't have many Windows 7 machines in stock.
All that aside, I bet if you ask anyone contributing to this discussion if they have ever been approached for computer purchasing advice, you will hear a resounding, "YES!".
I married into a HUGE family and I am officially the "all things electronic" resource. They ALL come to me when they need computer advice. and don't get me started about my mother volunteering my computer services at her retirement home!
The bottom line is Windows 7 and Windows 7 machines are still available online, and at retail stores and most people know some guy like me who enjoys helping them with their computer questions.
I don't know how long Windows 7 will be available but it certainly is still available now in large quantities.
Maybe that's different where you are.(?)

but let me get there and check. I'm pretty sure I've got it, but I've been mistaken before. I'll peer mail you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69RllXjCL6o (don't forget to hit the closed captions button) and yes it could have done with being started about 2 minutes in..

And they say that elderly people are not adaptable! I am 66 and I like windows 8. I'll admit to a bit of cursing for the first couple of days but it was a lot easier to get used to than Windows 95. I didn't hold up my hands in shock and disbelief but installed Windows 8 on both a tablet and a desktop. I wouldn't go back to Windows 7 now and neither would my Daughter or my Wife.

Imagine all the other seniors who've never owned a PC until now. They're first interface will be Windows 8 and they won't have much or any experience with older versions of Windows. In fact they might encounter an older PC and wonder how to work it. "Where's the big buttons? I don't see this Start button you speak of - I don't see Start anywhere on the screen!"

thanks for a very well documented alternative.

Another well documented alternative: install Windows 7.

copies left over in shops.

Anyways, few are the requests for Windows 7 installations and downgrades. The mainstream public will gladly purchase Windows 8 computers and devices. Some might move to MacOS (which doesn't have a Start Menu either) but these will be few and far between because it's even less open than Windows and is more expensive. You're the worst debater.

nt

You can still buy Windows 7 directly from Microsoft. Go there. Check it out.

here's how I checked

www.microsoft. com - - click on the hot link 'Store' -- click on the hot link 'Windows'

and you get a full page ad about Win 8 with a line 'Like Windows 7 only better' with all the prices.

Hover over the hot link on the left that says 'Windows' and you get the choice of two links "Windows 8' or 'Windows 8 Pro' - nowhere in the store is there Windows 7 available for sale or download.

I'm outa here

nt

Seldom executed.

NT

here's how I checked

www.microsoft. com - - click on the hot link 'Store' -- click on the hot link 'Windows'

and you get a full page ad about Win 8 with a line 'Like Windows 7 only better' with all the prices.

Hover over the hot link on the left that says 'Windows' and you get the choice of two links "Windows 8' or 'Windows 8 Pro' - nowhere in the store is there Windows 7 available for sale or download.

Funny.

Many of my customers have never pressed [Start] in their lives, yet they join the chorus bemoaning its passing. Everything they ever do must be a Desktop Shortcut.

Others keep the desktop relatively clean and use [Start] often, selecting a 'recent ap' from the left column, or [Start]-[All Programs] for most everything else.

Still others, including me, use [Start]-[Run] for just about everything.

Windows 8 runs exactly the same if you just adopt the mindset that the tiles display _IS_ the start button, with the following minor differences:

- It starts out open
- It takes up the whole screen

You right-click it to get All-Apps, which is [Start]-[All Programs]. You click where [Start] used to be to get the desktop. You right-click there to get most everything else. Click the opposite corner to bring up a new, useful flyout, containing a Magnifying Glass that does what Greg just wrote up.

Microsoft should have had a 30-second auto-tutorial for this (like the old WinXP startup tour) but you should spend a lot less time figuring out Win-8 then you originally spent getting your iPad or Droid the way you wanted it.

The things you use most often (the left column of [Start]) should be tiles. [Start]-[All-Programs] is Right-cick, then All-Apps. The Desktop is there for your desktop junkies to access their stuff. The missing [Start] button is right where it used to be, it's just invisible. Greg has a nice drill-down into some interesting things, but those who can't do 'Lower-Right, Magnifying Glass' really shouldn't be using a computer.

There's a philosophy in here someplace. Microsoft's long-term 'Contempt for Customers' and 'Complicated Solutions to Simple Problems' business model have created a world full of people who use the products but hate the company. Win-8 came out to universal panning because those who write these reviews were pre-disposed to pan it.

Win-8 is fast and clean. It really is a nice product if you give it a unbiased chance. It's main failing is the lack of a 30-second auto-tour.

"You click where [Start] used to be to get the desktop."

I missed that shortcut, but then I've missed plenty of other things.

Mind you, that doesn't mean I don't still want my Start menu back.

I'll spend a lot more time figuring W8 out than an iPad or Droid, because I never had an iPad or Droid. One of the issues I see with W8 adoption is it assumes all previous users of Windows have experience with this class of devices.

I agree wholeheartedly about the lack of an introductory tour, especially a 'W8 for XP / W7 Users' guide.

Had Windows 8 live tiles been released in Windows 95 it would a different story right now. Anyone hinting at an unlabeled button in the lower lefthand corner as a method of accessing applications would've been crucified. Ubuntu doesn't have a Start button and neither does MacOS. "Predisposed" is the best way to describe this brouhaha.

the Windows Search function works for something! It sure as hell isn't worth a flip to find files any more. When search reveals no files within the searched criteria, it may or may not be so. In my experience, I don't usually search for things of which I know their location.

Oh, and isn't it wonderful that you know the Windows keyboard combination to pull up that function? MS isn't happy about anyone else knowing it. Just as is the case with the file extension and its purpose. The list goes on and on.

Windows 7 and Windows 8 are 2 different products for 2 different uses. If you don't like the way windows 8 functions, then stick with 7. Windows 7 will be around for a long time (look at XP). If you don't plan to use touch, stick with windows 7.

retailers can't get new copies and some of the OEM hardware companies are no longer supplying systems with Win 7.

Irrelevant. OEM companies have full license to produce new copies on their own. All they get from Microsoft are product keys and serials. The tangible discs can be done by OEM... that's for those who can't simply get them on thumbdrives or download them as ISO files. Weak, dude. My kung fu is better than yours.

Not all computer users are techies who know these things. And not all computer users know somebody they can ask about these things. What about Joe XP user who had to buy a new home PC because the old one died? All he's ever done is browse the web, check email, and order stuff from Sears and Penneys. He doesn't keep up with tech, but he knows there's a Windows 7 because his neighbor has it on his PC, so he's expecting a change. What he doesn't expect is Windows 8, and he hates it because he can't find anything. He can't get rid of all those boxes on the screen, he can't find the Start button, and he hasn't been able to check his email in a month. Not even his neighbor with Windows 7 can help him.

This user doesn't know how to work with ISOs and thumbdrives. He doesn't know about OS downgrade requests. What he knows is he just spent hundreds on a new PC that he can't figure out how to use and doesn't want to spend hundreds more to learn how to use it. And this is the vast majority of computer user (in the US, at least) today.

"Old man, how is it that you can hear the grasshopper?"

"Young man, how is it that you cannot?"

Thanks.

Time for you to leave.
Remember always... That a wise man always walks with is head bowed. Humbled... like the dust.

classic

"Now you try three out of five!"

From the MAD magazine version.

A regular XP user goes out the buy a new computer. He doesn't want Windows 8 so he asks for Windows 7 installed. If the PC is from a major manufacturer than can downgrade his PC to Windows 7 via a DVD or via online. No knowledge of thumbdrives or ISOs needed because that PC maker will get him an OEM DVD that they've produced internally thanks to a licensing agreement with Microsoft.

The customers at Best Buy by my house are getting Windows 8 PCs so this regular XP user must be in the minority. Even if one or two ask for a Windows 7 downgrade. You know better, NickNielsen. You're the moderator, not the instigator.

Wow, I think I referenced American Pie or Pulp Fiction. But it looks like you guys just went down memory lane, someplace ancient.

In the USA, he's probably going to a box store like Best Buy. And Best Buy won't do an OS downgrade. That's why the customers at Best Buy by your house are getting Windows 8 PCs.

Yep, we went down memory lane. That's because we're old enough to have memories of something more than bottles and blankies...

better get your nose out of that angel dust!

You can buy it directly from Microsoft online.
You can buy it from Amazon.com and other vendors.
You can buy it at the store.

It is extremely difficult for someone in a coma to buy a copy but I suspect they would have no use for it.

You've told him repeatedly, just as he's repeated his same position to m.a.d., who keeps repeating his ageist posturing; and as I've done myself on this subject. Do you really want to be in the same boat with us?

Stop beating your head on the wall; it feels so good when you quit.

misinformation.

There's already enough misinformation about Windows 8.

via the front door

www.microsoft. com - - click on the hot link 'Store' -- click on the hot link 'Windows'

and you get a full page ad about Win 8 with a line 'Like Windows 7 only better' with all the prices.

Hover over the hot link on the left that says 'Windows' and you get the choice of two links "Windows 8' or 'Windows 8 Pro' - nowhere in the store is there Windows 7 available for sale or download.

No, there's no direct link.

But if you enter "Windows 7" in the search box at the upper right, then sort the results by relevance, Win 7 Ultimate, Pro, & Home Premium are the first three results.

http://www.microsoftstore. com/store/msstore/en_US/list/size.48/ThemeID.27509700/ceid.194394100/keywords.Windows%207/categoryID.38336300/defaultKeyword.Search/sort.relevance/order.up

Dude, you just lied to JJFitz. Not cool, dude! Not cool.

He's not seeing the same Microsoft pages we are as he's not in the US.

I am sorry for doubting you Deadly.
Microsoft's Australian site has been blitzed by Windows 8! The only way I could find Windows 7 for purchase was to go to the Win 7 support site. Very few non-techie people will think of trying that.

Deadly: That being said, I was told that your dstore.com is somewhat like amazon.com in Australia. They are still selling all versions of Windows 7 as well as plenty of Windows 7 laptops and desktops.

Australia has one of the lowest developed country on-line purchasing percentage of population figures. On-line purchases can take anywhere from one day (if you live in the same major city as the store and you buy in the morning) to four weeks to deliver - - most average seven to ten days. We're a big place with few people and in need of a decent fast freight transport system.

Then when you add in most Aussies want to be able to look at the physical product before they buy, you can see why we tend to buy from the brick and mortar stores - heck many of the on-line sales come about after the people have looked at a demo item in the local store or one a friend has before they go near the store's on-line shop.

that I have so many options for purchasing tech products.

By the way, we Americans want to get our hands on things before we buy them too. If you try it out at the store and then buy it online, it's called "showrooming". Brick and mortar stores hate it.

The Microsoft Store has Windows Home Premium for $119 (http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/pd/Windows-7-Home-Premium/productID.235488300/vip.true), Windows 7 Professional starting at $199 (http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/pd/Windows-7-Professional/productID.216645600/vip.true), and Windows 7 Ultimate starting at $219 (http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/pd/Windows-7-Ultimate/productID.216647200/vip.true).

Use the above Windows 7 titles if you have an older PC and want to use a really good operating system on it. However, if you have a kick-arse PC just get Windows 8 Pro for $69 (http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/html/pbpage.Windows_8_Pro) and join us in the future!!

And the OS cost me nothing.

Don't go to the Windows Store. Go straight to MS and get your free upgrade for $39.99 and a free Features upgrade for Windows Media Center.

That would be if I wanted to move from Zorin OS to Windows 8 (which I don't see, by the way, as an "upgrade").

But the subject here is the option of downgrading from 8 to 7.

The negative comments about Windows 8 above were obviously made by people with substantial computer knowledge about the problems of Windows 8 that affect them, reasonably enough because those are the kind of people that are going to participate in this kind of forum.

But there is another whole class of people that Microsoft has thumbed their nose at with this recent example of ego and greed: The less computer literate users. These are people that use email, word processing, web browsing, an image viewer and not much else. They may have great difficulty in learning a new way to access the few things that they do on a computer and learning a new way will do absolutely nothing to improve their experience.

The specific people I am thinking of are my 95 year old father and his wife. They use their computers quite a bit and reasonably enough decided to replace one of their aging XP computers. Little did they know that they were part of the market segment that Microsoft didn't give a crap about any more and were shocked to find out that getting a new computer meant having to navigate a maze of new ideas about the GUI without any apparent justification other than Microsoft wanted to force it on them. Eventually they returned the machine and found a Windows 7 machine to replace their old XP machine. I wish I could tell you that they had moved to Linux. I am now firmly in the anti-Microsoft camp. I won't buy a Microsoft driven smart phone or the surface tablet. I feel lucky there are alternatives, something that Microsoft might consider the next time it decides to use its near desktop OS monopoly as a tool to cram unwanted changes onto the users.

it seems to me the class of users you're discussing might find W8 easier. Of the applications you mention (email, word processing, web browsing, an image viewer), only word processing doesn't have a Start screen tile out of the box.

I just wish I could stop thinking of W8 in terms of previous versions of Windows. It would make my learning curve less steep if I didn't have a couple of decades of habits.

Few existing business programs are Metro-compatible, and I find the constant shifting between Metro and the Classic desktop quite jarring. However, users you describe can do most of the tasks you mention in Metro, and would rarely have to see the Classic desktop.

No, users can't do most of the tasks in Metro (Modern). The default tiles, or whatever the term is, link to the Modern apps that aren't the same as what you find on the Classic desktop (such as Internet Explorer - two very different versions). That 95 year-old will feel like Alice (in Wonderland) when he "takes a bite" from the Metro Internet Explorer, and then takes a bite from the Classic desktop Internet Explorer.

You can't stop thinking of Win8 in terms of previous versions of Windows. You shouldn't have to. There is a concept called look and feel. A well-designed system should have and customers expect a certain look and feel. What Microsoft seems to be telling us on each new version of a product they put out is "We didn't know crap about how to display and organize the interface before, but we got it right now." Then, out comes the next version of Windows or Office, menu items, ribbons, tiles, icons, or whatever get moved, changed, or deleted, renamed or some other obfuscation to leave a user befuddled on where to look for a possibly non-existant feature.

I think Microsoft did a brilliant job of establishing an excellent look and feel with Windows 95. The control panel was the most logical of any other version of Windows. Now, one of the entries in the control panel is something like "Printers and Other Devices". That's real informative. If you have something physically attached to a computer, that would be a printer or other device. Right-click on a printer and two of the choices to select are "properties" and "printer properties".

Back to Palmetto_CharlieSpencer's comment that you rarely have to see the Classic Desktop. That is true if you can figure out how to get the classic applications over to the Metro (Modern) start menu. It can be done, but I think most casual users would have to struggle to try to find the process and many of those would still not succeed.

Fortunately, there is a great deal of business-essential software that will not work in Windows 8, so I will have some breathing-room before I have to try to assist users with Windows 8. Hopefully by the time software developers program for and certify Windows 8 for their products, users will have already purchased a Windows 8 computer at home and had their relatives/friends walk them through the muck called an interface on this new OS, which appears to be an otherwise very fast and solid operating system.

Just download for free Win8Startbutton and install. Some KB and you can have back the windows xp, vista or 7 start button with lot of customization. simple and easy.

nt

Or install Windows 7. Hmmm, that's an option. (It's an option for those who don't like Windows 8.)

Disclaimer: you don't have to reply to my comment. It's just my opinion and doesn't require anyone else validation.

nt

The cool thing about the digital realm is that "copies" of software don't require fabrication of tangible products. It's a concept lost on you baby boomers.

There was no "digital realm". Think about what that means.

And I wonder what you'll discover wasn't there while you are growing up...

he now lives in was created by baby boomers - he thinks you can't know something unless you grew up in it. Which doesn't explain how our generation invented all this stuff or had the dreams about it to put in the effort to invent it.

nt

The Microsoft Store has Windows Home Premium for $119 (http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/pd/Windows-7-Home-Premium/productID.235488300/vip.true), Windows 7 Professional starting at $199 (http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/pd/Windows-7-Professional/productID.216645600/vip.true), and Windows 7 Ultimate starting at $219 (http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/pd/Windows-7-Ultimate/productID.216647200/vip.true).

Update: one person didn't like the links to purchase Windows 7 directly from Microsoft. Weird.

but politeness is a concept lost in your generation.

The concept is NOT lost on his generation. You know better than to interpret the behavior of one as indicative of all.

when his generation gets insulted with an inane generalization.

No. I don't believe it. I know plenty of kids who are polite and respectful.

maybe he'll take the hint from you. He certainly hasn't picked up on it from anyone else. He's had this ageist obsession since he first appeared.

I'll give him credit; he's motivated this old person to finally explore something new. Not Windows 8, mind you; but how the TR 'Ignore' feature works.

nt

You are totally wrong.

here's how I checked

www.microsoft. com - - click on the hot link 'Store' -- click on the hot link 'Windows'

and you get a full page ad about Win 8 with a line 'Like Windows 7 only better' with all the prices.

Hover over the hot link on the left that says 'Windows' and you get the choice of two links "Windows 8' or 'Windows 8 Pro' - nowhere in the store is there Windows 7 available for sale or download.

Dude, you just lied again to JJFitz.

Don't worry, JJ. I left links to three flavors of Windows 7 sold by The Microsoft Store. Everyone likes a good sideshow attraction.

if you're so sure the link you've found still works, go spend some money buying a copy. it's not where people will find it during a usual check of the store and it may well be an old link for stuff they don't sell any more - can't tell until you fork over the cash for it.

But that download also includes a "free" Torch Browser. Who in the heck wants to install that kind of unknown/unproven bonusware on their new laptop?

Proceed with caution...

It's a pity people are afraid of change and I can only imagine what the same people would have commented if a few years ago you wrote similar articles about how people could get rid of the Start Button and the Taskbar on Windows 95 to keep their Windows 3.1 look and feel on their PC's.

Fact is change is eminent, and it's people like you who help those reluctant to change to slowly adapt to these changes. I don't believe you intention is to re-brand Windows 8 with a Windows 7 costume, but to assist those who are finding it difficult to find their way around with some of the passages and doors changed, but eventually everyone will get used to the change as well as seeing the need or purpose for such change.

Keep up the good work Greg, tips like this are certainly helping a lot in my environment. I think deploying Windows 8 will happen a lot faster and with less pain from our clients since we will have workarounds for those people struggling to find their way around!