Discussion on:

Would you want to know your co-workers' salaries?

Does your comment mean your company has a bad system for determining compensation or that compensation shouldn't be shared?

If a company is truly paying people what they are worth and they believe in "equal pay for equal work," they have nothing to hide. On the other hand, if an employee "has pictures on higherups," it might be reflected by their inflated compensation.

There's a lot of feedback about government workforce practices. But this article is not about that. I'm trying to find relevant feedback and I'm inundated with irrelevant commentary.

Secret files of who gets paid what only causes anxiety, anger, and frustration. Leaving the military and joining the civilian side was quite an unwelcome shock. Gossip about "who gets what" is unbelievable, and in many cases detrimental to getting anything done. Openness takes that out of the picture. At least it takes a part of the gossip off the table.

Openness also has a side effect. If someone knows that job A gets such and such salary, and B gets such and such, then if they want the perks of the higher paying job, they strive to get it.

seem to feel thay are already striving enough and should get it by right.

Think of them as REMFs

In the US, it's illegal for a company to tell you you can't discuss salary. We all need to get over it, and see it as a way to discover how valued we are by our employers. If we think Ms. The-Boss-thinks-she-so-awesome is a slacker and is all show, then maybe our priorities don't align with the company, and it's time to start shopping our resumes. Or make a case for why you deserve compensation commensurate with hers. http://smallbusiness.chron.com/federal-laws-employees-right-share-salary-information-other-employees-12899.html

(edited for location)

Charlie is spot on - I spent 20 years in the Army and you know based on years of service and pay grade what anyone made (pay is never an issue or a discussion - one less thing to worry about). Since I have been out I have seen more inequity in pay than I care to admit to - but then again the private sector doesn't understand that as well as the military, in my opinion - as well as many other aspects of team, leadership, integrity, work ethic, etc.

Miltary pay is not governed by the market.
Imagine if it were...

I'd have been able to retire on my savings...for about a day.
.
.
.
Come to think of it, that's what I did.

If a company is willing to disclose something as confidential and sensitive as salary, what else are they going to hang on the billboard? My personnel record? The anonymous complaint I lodged about the guy in the next cube dealing drugs over the phone? The number of sick days I've taken? I don't know how much my coworkers make and I don't WANT to know. That kind if disclosure is like throwing a piece of fresh meat into the lions' den and it serves no useful purpose.

my coworkers laugh at me enough as is :-P

Equal Pay for Equal Work, should mean just that. I use to work in the Heavy Machining industry, Drilling & milling Boiler plates for Ships. the company I worked for was forest to hire a number of women, to get government contracts, the women had to be payed equal to what the men were being payed. this started out ok with us but after a while the women would say they could not move the boiler plates and needed help. men being men we would help! but then our production would fall off and we would get yelled at. so all of the men banded together and told the women if they needed help they had to ask there supervisor's. this resulted to some of them being moved to lighter jobs& retaining the higher pay of the heavy machining workers & pissing off those people that had worked in the lite machining areas until they forest the women to quit! These Steel Worker's "Equal pay meant Equal Work, not go get the Higher Pay and the move to the easier and Take the Higher Pay With You"
Women that wont the equal pay, need to do Equal Work! Men do not get pregnant then take time off to have a child, then expect to come back like they never left in the first place, this time off should not be counted as time served.

In the EU, maternity leave is now shareable. So the father can take time off while the missus goes back to work.

So they swapped nine months of waddling, aching breast, feeling like you've just crapped out a medcine ball and doing all the house work, for nine months of waddling, aching breast, feeling like you've just crapped out a medcine ball and then being treated like crap by you for a buck fifty an hour

Equality, be careful what you wish for...

I think I'm gonna head over this summer and see if I can get knocked up!
In France they even provide a baby sitter and maid while a woman is home pregnant and after she delivers. Then the husband gets time off AFTER she's delivered the baby (about 6 months, I think) so they can build a strong family bond. I like poutine too !

Overall I think it is better out in the open. Even when it is hidden, people find out and then are angry, resentful... and it can lead to apathy or even sabotage. When salary and reviews are in the open, they can be questioned and, if needed, corrected. It makes it a lot harder to play favorites.

Salary discrepancies aren't just based on gender. I have been told, more than once in a review that my work is excellent, my work ethic is outstanding... no negatives, but in the end no raise, when confronted the answer was "You don't have kids, so you don't need the money. John Doe is divorced and has 4 kids."

Who's business is it what my salary is?
I am hired for a skillset I bring to the company, my experience and value can be greater or less than others, even when in the same role.

As for not having kids, tell the cheap baystard that you can' t AFFORD to have kids and don't want to end up in the same boat as John, because he was a deadbeat that couldn't afford to support his wife and kids.

The relationship between an employee and employer is private, as far as contract, allowances, salary, benefits etc.

Employers select teams based on unique and individual benefits that they offer the company.

In my case, employers always have a set rate as a base for new hires, I NEVER take it. I always negotiate something more to my liking. Often I reduce other income opportunities in the company in order to increase base but that's MY ability and if the employer accepts it and I get a better deal than you, well then YOU should have done a better job when YOU negotiated YOUR package.

I actually can' t believe you see it that way. Many companies don't even let employees discuss salary, if they do and end up disgruntled, they are warned and then fired if it happens again.
Strike your own deal, don't expect to receive the benefits of someone else's negotiating skills.

In short, it's none of you 'kin business if I managed to strike a better deal than you when I was hired. If you find out and don't like it, deal with it or find a different job!

While I don't believe I have a "right" to know what you earn. I believe even more I don't have a "right" to earn what you earn without your skills and experience mix and role.
Even if we had the same role, I wouldn't believe that, because there's no way we could possibly have the same skills and experience mix.

So to say I deserve as much as you for what you do, is to say to say the reverse is also true. That takes all my meagre ability and the enormous effort I've put into honing it and throws it directly in the bin. If you stepped into my role and still did better than me, that's simply proof that I'm not as good as I think I am, not that you are not as good as they think you are....
The latter is a cop out, it's I don't like this game, I'm taking my ball home.
It's waaaah, it's not fair.

I'd work beside you any day......if they paid me the same as you, or more. LOL

the huge drop in income, so it would have to be much more.

"I actually can' t believe you see it that way. Many companies don't even let employees discuss salary, if they do and end up disgruntled, they are warned and then fired if it happens again. "

... it would be illegal to prevent me from discussing my salary with co-workers (off the clock).

Secondly, one of the main reasons for posting salaries is to prevent abuses where as a supervisor I say, "Hey, my buddy Joe needs a job, and I have an opening. Oh and look I can give him a higher start salary if I screw over Jim who has worked here for 10 years." Never mind that Joe has no experience, and can't do the job. That happens ALL THE TIME in businesses where they try to prevent salary rates from being open. Then they can't understand why Jim would be upset.

If you are as good as you say you are you shouldn't mind your co-workers knowing what you make. What's wrong, you afraid they won't do your work for you if they find out they are doing 3/4 of your work for 1/3 the pay?

Employees only end up disgruntled when it is obvious that pay is not based on performance. Almost without fail I have seen people say: "I wouldn't do your job if they paid me twice what they are paying you." They aren't upset that I make more than them, they understand why, because I put in a lot more WORK AND I have a large SKILL SET. That is easily seen when all is open.

I have nothing to hide, I will tell anyone I work with how much I make. I do a good job and I don't need to hide my salary or my skill set. I get paid well and I do an excellent job, and I NEVER ask a co-worker to do what I am supposed to do.

".. it would be illegal to prevent me from discussing my salary with co-workers "
That all depends, if it is company policy not to discuss company contracts, then no matter where you are, on or off the clock, it is enforceable.

Freedom of speech has nothing to do with it and does not apply in such cases. Read your constitutional rights a little closer, the freedom of speech relates to government restricting your speech, not private companies.

It's no different than discussing pricing, private company policies etc. with a competitor, doesn't matter where or when you do it, if the company policy restricts it, you can't discuss it.

"If you are as good as you say you are you shouldn't mind your co-workers knowing what you make. What's wrong, you afraid they won't do your work for you if they find out they are doing 3/4 of your work for 1/3 the pay?"

The reason I'm employed is because nobody else here can do my job, if so I wouldn't be bringing value to my employer. That said, nobody even does 1% of my workload. My salary is absolutely NONE of their business either. I don't CARE whet they make, I don't WANT to know what they make, it is completely irrelevant in every way.

"Employees only end up disgruntled when it is obvious that pay is not based on performance."

This is the luxury of not having forced labour. If you don't like the deal you've struck, if you don't like the pay you receive for the amount of work you put in, find a different job. It's YOUR decision to work for YOUR pay scale. If you feel you are worth more, go and GET more, don't just expect it, go and GET IT for yourself.

"I have nothing to hide, I will tell anyone I work with how much I make"

Congratulations. Not sure quite what you were expecting there, perhaps a cake and candles but a congrats is all I can offer. Well done, good for you, atta boy!!! ?

"f it is company policy not to discuss company contracts, then no matter where you are, on or off the clock, it is enforceable. "

The vast majority don't sign a contract. They are 'at will workers'. Regardless, the courts seem to have mixed feelings on the subject, and often award cash settlements for such things (I know two people that got rather large awards for this type of case).

"The reason I'm employed is because nobody else here can do my job,"
Wanna bet on that? Even if they don't have someone on staff I am quite certain there are hundreds who could do your job (and I don't even know what it is) and probably do it better and for less.

"If you feel you are worth more, go and GET more, don't just expect it, go and GET IT for yourself."

Ah, and there is the rub, if there is no disclosure about pay, then it is hard to know if you are being fairly compensated, or to even raise the point.

Your fear is much like that of the pharaohs and religious leaders of years past. You try to keep those are 'beneath you' from learning to read lest they rise up in protest.

Oh, and I didn't want anything. Just telling it like it is. I have nothing to hide. You on the other hand, apparently, do.

I worked for a large Computer equipment company and was required to go to a training center out of state on a regular basis. There were other techs in the classes from all over the country. They used to bring our paychecks into the classrooms and pass them out. The young new-hire sitting next to me looked over at my check and gasped. "That's all you make?" I had at the time about 30 years with the company and he had about 1 year. He showed me his check and it was $12,00 less than mine, yes, twelve dollars.
I was the one who should have been incensed, but actually he said, "If that's all I am going to make in 30 years, I'm going to look for another job when I get home".
We were always promised raises "next year" or given 1%. When it was brought up in a meeting, we were told, "We don't have the money and times are tough." but we found out that the Chairman regularly received salary and bonus of $16,000,000.00 (16 million dollars) a year.
Attempts at getting a union failed because everyone was scared. As it turned out they were right to be afraid. Word leaked that I was responsible for the discontent (but it wasn't just me), so I was given the dirtiest most physical jobs. I lasted another 3 years.
I was finally able to retire early after 39 years and my replacement was fired for collecting a paycheck without going to work. He had another job at the same time. It took company security 2 years to catch him by putting a hidden GPS unit in his van.
I think sharing payroll info is a good thing because it could help to keep the companies honest.
I started working for a company that considered it's self a "Family", but it eventually became "just like everyone else".

is used to pay off union reps with bogus promotions so they can BS you in to believing seniority = longevity.

As a Public Servant, the salaries of our entire organization are published to the local newspapers' web sites annually. It's a matter of public record. This provides everyone with sort of a baseline, to see whether or not they are making what the rest of the world is making in a particular position. Generally, public service positions are typically lower than commercial salaries around here, but not everyone works for just the money.

A long time back, I worked for a cooperative. Not only did everyone know what each other made, we all had a say in everyone's salary. It was a much more democratic system than any that I have ever worked in. Even though the money wasn't the best, I am kind of sorry I had left. Everyone had a voice on what went on in the co-op. I can't recommend this as a great business model enough.

Disclosure may work well in some environments and poorly in others.

During our new-hire process we ask that salaries and benefits are not disscussed for at least the first 90 days. After that, we prefer that salaries not be the main topic, but prefer instead on encouraging everyone to interact with the person responsible for their package.

Gag orders on this issue are not possible... but good sense tells us that disscussing these things usually results in animosity towards co-workers and management which is not good for anyone.

I'm okay with self interest, but at least be honest about it.

I absolutley agree that there should be full disclosure. That is the only way I can know if I am being treated fairly by my company. I know the work I do. I can see the work my peers and superiors do - I'm fair minded enough to make concessions for the nuances of our respective jobs. I recall bonus day at a firm I worked at early in my career. The people at my level were excited as we noticed the senior managers high fiving and toasting (scotch!) in their offices. When word came down later in the day that there were no bonuses for us due to "a loss late in the year" you can bet that morale took a hit. Maybe those happy senior managers were really just drowning their sorrow, but many of us were at new firms within a few months.

To take it a step further, I would also like to know salaries at similar companies and have the average salary included in job postings. "Salary DOE" gives me no clue what type of pay scale to expect. One of the online job boards is starting to include salary info and Its very helpful.

Lastly, its the best way to maximize earnings. If I'm not being treated fairly, for whatever reason, I want to move on. Aren't we supposed to "do whats best for our families?" (to steal a phrase from professional athletes). I don't think many companies want to be known as the lowest payer in their industry.

How sad. Your only measure if your employer is treating you 'fairly' is if you are all paid equally? Is this your first job? Life ain't fair, why should employment be? If you did twice as much as someone else, though in the same role, and if you brought a better skill set to the table, even if mostly unused, would you expect some other guy in your department who just learned his trade to earn the same as you? Is that fair?

Mummy little Billy has a DS , and you won't let me have one. Waaaaaahhh!
It's really irritating.

nothing good comes from that.

I'm discouraged enough already.

i work in a very diverse environment with wide range of different levels of experience, backgrounds and education. Some people are civil service and the rest are permanent contractors. I think it is best that these numbers are not disclosed as it can tend to bring out envy, jealousy and bitterness between these people. It's an ego thing and it shouldn't happen, but it does.

I have always supported this idea. Frankly hiding salaries has always seemed more like a way to keep salaries down than help anyone be more productive. Mostly is just helps HR and management avoid constantly having to justify to Sam why Joe makes more, with the added benefit of being able to underpay people who dont know better.

However a good HR and Management team WILL justify to Sam and in a very strait forward way. How is it possible for Sam to change his work behaviors and become more valuable to the company unless he understands what kinds of things the company values? If you think Joe is doing A, B and C that is more valuable to the company, you should tell that to Sam. If Sam cant take it, you probably need a new employee.

Related to this is the practice of concealing sales figures in stores. It is very strange to me how often these figures are hidden as opposed to front and center in management communication. In theory everyone there is to sell more stuff and make the store more profitable, every action they take is more or less only in support of this goal from the companies point of view. So without real numbers and clear feedback how can you even know if you have been successful?

My company uses pay bands, but they are fairly broad and overlapping. So just knowing a pay band only gives bounds. You could find the median pay rate for the band, but that does not predict any individual's salary.

But I agree with Tony's reaction. I don't want to know. It's a human weakness that I might be tempted to envy those making more (especially when it seems unjustified) and superior to those who make less. Either way, it doesn't seem productive or something that would enhance teamwork.

The reveal/hide scale is so wide, it's amazing. I've worked in jobs where everyone knew what everyone else got, and not just in the military. It was pretty much a 'meh. So what' situation.

I've also worked for companies where even the mere mention of what you made to another employee was a firing offense. I didn't work at those companies very long. They almost all underpaid all but a very few 'special' employees and managers.

My favorite places found a middle ground; You may tell anyone you want what you are paid. You may NOT tell anyone else what SOMEONE ELSE is paid without their expressed permission.

That seemed to work out pretty well.

Need to read Managing Without Managers by Ricardo Semler in Oct Harvard Business Review Sept-Oct 1989. Brazalian company employees set their salaries, job titles, and did not do expense reports (another great waste of time).

In today's IT market. I'm lucky to have a job.

Just have a quick look at Semco's way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG3HPX0D2mU