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dognknees, anyone who buys anything is a customer and can be seen

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I'm Not Saying..

dogknees 2nd Nov

that Windows 8 is in this category. I doubt that it will take any moretime/clicks/keystrokes to achieve the same result as earlier versions. The fact that they may be different actions is of little moment. You always need to expend effort and apply some thought to move to a new system. It's always been the same.

As I've said before in our discussions, my personal experience is that EVERY version of Windows I've used (3.1, 95, XP, Vista, Win7) has given me improvements in what I can do and how much effort it takes to achieve it. The little bit of learning each time has paid for itself in efficiency in a matter of weeks or less.

I understand that some people don't want to change how they do things, even of it would benefit them in some way. However, I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince them otherwise as it's not my loss, it's theirs.

I just wish certain people, not you wink

, would extend at least the courtesy of accepting that my interests and the things I want from my PC are as valid as their preferences and stop trying to tell me that their system is better like it's a physical law or something.

Win8 make sense in this discussion in a way. There are now two "ecosystems", one for the person that wants versatility and one for those that don't. Maybe MS could have integrated them better, or given us a few more choices, but I would be very surprised if what I do really takes longer on Win8 once I spend a weekend working through the options.

My plan is to do this over the festive season. So, you can expect me to be chiming in with ".. but you can do it with less steps if you...." in the new year.

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dogknees, I've no trouble accepting that YOU may find some aspects useful

Deadly Ernest Updated - 2nd Nov

to you, in fact, in many of the posts I've said there are situation where I can see Win 8 and tablets being useful in limited work situations and for some individual users. I've said the same things about Cloud Computing and most subjects, as it's true. But when people make blanket statements about what they need being suitable for all others, when it isn't, then I will comment. I also usually comment when someone pushes just the positives and doesn't mention the negatives at all, as that's one sided commentary, and not nice in an article or blog.

When anyone makes a statement that they find it useful for reason X or Y, I make no comment as that is a personal opinion and they would have a better idea of what their personal needs are. HOWEVER, when they make blanket statements or don't back up their opinion, then it's wide open to discussion and debate.

In regards to the debate over how useful Win 8 is to the average user or the general enterprise user, the information provided by Microsoft themselves says it is NOT any better, and in some areas it is worse than earlier versions of Windows or what is available from others.

Re Win 8 and it's development capability - this quote below is from the post:

http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-352310-3710132

in the thread:

10 reasons Windows 8 will be painful for developers
http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-352310

quote

I've just returned from the Microsoft sponsored IT conference.
... where I witnessed very interesting conversation. The topic was Windows 8 application design for developers. Lecturer described grid, fonts, margins etc into great detail, and then she went on to menus, navigation, and so on. During this, she was interrupted by somehow irritated question from the public:

"Hey, what about data entry?"

Answer: "Windows 8 apps are not meant for data entry. They are meant to be used anytime, anywhere, in any situation, for information consumption, not production. You know, browsing shopping catalogues, news, and such."

Question: "But what about business applications?"

Answer: "They belong to desktop, not to Windows 8 app store. Business apps deal with tens of thousands of items or more. There is now way Windows 8 app UI could handle this. As a matter of fact, I can't even imagine things like Photoshop running under Win 8."

Q: "B-b-b-but grumble grumble!?"

A: "Consider this. What would you prefer do develop

- a business application only a couple of companies are interested in

- an application for App Store with at least half a billion of potential customers?"

And that pretty much nailed it.

end quote

From the Microsoft paperwork in Win 8 we are told no application that uses Win32 APIs will work on it. They also tell us that you need Win 8 Pro or Enterprise to connect to a local network except over the Internet by a VPN - these are backwards steps as that is all stuff removed from Win XP, as is a whole lot more listed at;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_features_removed_in_Windows_8

yes, it's wikipedia, but it's all a summary of the MS releases listed at the bottom of the article if you want to chase it back to the original source.

I do the bulk of my work as document preparation or editing or image editing, This is very easy to do in Win XP, even in Win 7 Enterprise, but a real bugger when I tried to do it in a trial version of Win 8 - and part of the problem was Win 8 would NOT let some of my third party software work on it. The reason it would NOT work is solely due to arbitrary changes to the Windows command set by Microsoft, they have that right, just as I have a right to say it don't work and won't use it and to say so. What I did get to work took a lot more keystrokes and movements to use than in Win XP or Win 7 or in Zorin OS Linux. In short, Win 8 is a retrograde step for the type of work I do at my desk, which is the type of work the majority of enterprise employees do at their desk.

You may notice one common thread in most of my post about how bad I find Win 8 is most of the support for my comments comes direct from the Microsoft website and advertising material on it, so it is more than just my personal opinion.

Now, since this thread here rose out of a sub-thread in the discussion:

What Windows 8 closed app distribution means for consultants
http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-395923?messageId=3712325

where I mentioned Win 8 was intended as a consumer OS for consumer devices such as smart phones and tablets, something Microsoft themselves state, and the quote from the developer above, it is clear to me, and many others, that Win 8 is not only not ready for enterprise use, it's not intended for it, and has no real place in most enterprise operations. A large part of that being the difficulties in creating productivity apps for use on Win 8, and another part being the extra hoops to get them loaded, instead of just downloading and installing, as capability in current versions of Windows that's being removed or restricted in Win 8 due to Microsoft setting Win 8 to accept apps from either the Microsoft Store or the Win 8 Sideload capability that's in Win 8 Pro and Enterprise only.

All this makes it clear that Win 8 does NOT provide any versatility, but some of the added features do ensure a tighter vendor lock-in to Microsoft Windows products and reduces the versatility of using third party apps and programs.

You say you have a full copy of Win 8 at the moment! Please tell me, which one, and please see if you can download and use the following programs - Fire Fox, Libre Office, VLC, DOSBox all third party programs I use on a frequent basis, some daily, some weekly. Then let me know how they go, please.

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Individual Preference

dogknees 5th Nov

To start at the end. I use none of the apps you mention, so for me that's not really relevant to me. That's kind of the point, particularly when the OSS/Linux crowd start. The things I want, in both my work and home environment include the ability to run certain specific apps, mostly commercial ones. There are some OSS aps I use but not all of them.

For example, people say I could use Libre/... office. It's of no use to me at work as none of our standard Excel templates would work. They all have a lot of embedded code, mainly to protect the user and to enable me to guarantee the results are correct. For example a workbook that lets businesses make accurate predictions of their tax bill. Accurate to the cent even for complex business structures. That is an absolute requirement in my work environment.

I'm not saying OSS/Linux is not useful, just that it is not an option for me given my requirements.

I understand completely what you mean by "consumers", but I don't agree with changing the meaning of a word to suit some marketer. And I don't like they way it labels people. I've struggled all my life with peoples assumptions about me. It "annoys" me when a person makes an assumption about me that turns out to be wrong and then somehow blames me? How an I in the wrong because of someone else's invalid assumptions?

Let me tell you a story about how well MS staff are at using their own software. When 95 was in beta, one of the testers managed to drag the task bar down so it wasn't visible. When he spoke to beta support at MS, they told him no one knew how to fix it and all they could suggest was a wipe and re-install. Ever since then, I really don't take any notice of what MS say about how to use their OS or what they can or can't do. I suspect a lot of what MS are saying is not about what it can do, but about the image or concept they want to sell us. I buy it and use it the way I want to and expect others to do the same.

I've learned every other version of Win the same way. By working through every screen/dialog, every More and Advanced button and working out what they do. by opening up every little app and doing the same. Same way I learn Office on each upgrade.

When I comment, I am talking about my experiences, not those of others. I cannot know what they do, and I really don't care if I'm not supporting them at work. I like certain things in an OS that others don't and dislike what others love. This is normal.

I'm not trying to brag, but I work in a team of 25, many of whom have various MS certifications. Not one of them knows half the tricks and shortcuts in Windows and Office I've worked out over the years. So many see a new way to do something and for some reason think the old way no longer works. That is almost never the case and it's a matter of taking what works better and blending it with that staff that still works well.

The Q&A you quote sounds to me like they are specifically talking about WinRT or "Metro" apps. I would agree on that basis, but it's not the whole story. If, for example instead of a start button, I have to go to a start screen, and that takes one click. How is it worse than a start button that needs one click to open? It's the same thing. You can of course still pin apps to the taskbar in the desktop interface, and I already use that almost exclusively to start and switch between things now. How is that worse?

One thing I'm not happy about is the loss of Aero. I like an attractive interface rather than an ugly one. I puts me in a better mood! The coloured squares and solid colours are Super B_tt Ugly!

All this probably comes across as arrogance, but that's really not what I'm about. It's just that I've always been someone that finds the "norm" a bore, and made my own choices. From primary school onward, this has been the case. I try not to make choices that harm others, and I'll help anyone that asks me to, even if it's to use something I would not. What I write, as I said, is about my personal experience and knowledge which is really all any of us can know. I'm not arrogant enough to assume I know what others are or are not able to do or what they might prefer, and I expect others to act the same.

Finally, I'm not here to get into an argument with you, or anyone else. I often respond to categorical statements (and I'm also guilty of making them), when they don't apply categorically. I expect writers/bloggers/... to be accurate in their language. It's their specialty after all. I also expect the title of an article to accurately reflect the content, something that is becoming rarer as time goes on.

Regards