Discussion on:

Windows XP SP2: What to do when the Windows break

A recent survey found that many IT professionals in the U.S. consider Windows XP SP2 the most difficult Windows software update ever. Read the details in the following News.com article and let us known what you think.

SP2: Bad for your blood pressure?
http://news.com.com/2100-1016-5322554.html

yeah, yeah I know I should be prepared by now right? Like the only thing I have to do is build a lab with every app in my orginazation and test MS patches. Like I have a pile of machines and networking equipment sitting around waiting for this chore. So what do you do? Well maybe after a while you trust MS and turn on Automatic Updates and let 'em fly while you actually do some paying work! and then WHAMO!!! yeah, yeah, yeah I know if you cant stand the heat... this is life on planet MS and it will pass but it d#%n sure doesn't make for more leisure time now does it!?!

Hey man get a grip, this is part of life if you're going to be a decent net admin. Every admin **SHOULD** have a test lab, to test every kind of deployment. And if you're so far behind the curve that you need more time, Microsoft has actually put out an .exe that you can deploy to block the sp2 download for up to 120 days.

Maybe you work for a company that has money to burn, but I am with Jason. We have neither the manpower nor the money to set up test labs to test ALL of our apps. Luckily for most of them we still use Novell and we do not have to deal with the MS @#$$%%%.

Even if you have Novell servers you still have to deal with clients of some sort and MS is still the #1 seller of desktop OSs.

Don't blame MS, we put them where they are today by purchasing Windows. If consumers demanded security 5 years ago MS would have delivered by now. Look at the automotive industry! Seat belts, crumple zones and airbags are relatively new in cars although we have had cars for over 100 years. Thousands of people had to die before they were invented but, only after consumers demanded safer cars.

Sure, every admin SHOULD have a test lab, but admins don't get to decide how to spend their dollars--pencil-pushers do.
Every admin COULD do full regression testing on every patch, but with the "do more with less" attitude many companies have, and the fact that management often doesn't understand the value of IT and infrastructure (until their stuff breaks!), many IT shops simply don't have the manpower to keep aging equipment running, much less properly patched.
120 extra days is nice, but it only buys you some time. Fortunately, since my users aren't local admins, none of them will "accidentally" install it!

Do what I did at home. I have to keep at least 1 system in perfect order so that I can dial in, so I took one of my systems and upgraded it and set a "shake down" period to find any issues. By the way, you can block download of SP2 by turning off Automatic Updates. That will block it for a while for sure. Luckily, I found that I only had a couple of issues, all of one that were fixed by applying some updates that I should have applied 3-4 months ago. Only one is not fixable, and it's minor compared to the value I get from SP2. Anyone else having this problem? I have a wireless network at home. When I have the laptop on and I'm not actively surfing the net or otherwise using resources on my network, I like to turn the integrated 802.11g NIC off. If I need to surf, I turn it on, and pre-SP2, I was good to go and surf. Now, I have to reboot the laptop. I get good signal, but can't connect to my network. I've tried ipconfig /renew and flushing my DNS. So far, rebooting is the only answer. The answer I got from HP was to uninstall SP2. The answer I got from Microsoft was to uninstall SP2. I'm not going to do that because I like the benefits SP2 gives me more than I hate losing my connectivity. Any suggestions?

My notebook is a Compaq, and with XP Pro/SP2, I didn't see any change in wireless connectivity - I press the button on the front, and after a couple of seconds disk activiy, the wireless networking is disconnected. Press the button again, and after a couple of seconds of disk work, I have wireless connectivity. No Probs.

Nice Microzombie rejoinder. Dying a horrible death is part of life for some people too, but I wouldn't want to trade places with any of them. Microsoft is just being the 800 pound gorilla again, and I don't blame anyone for complaining about it. Releasing this SP in its present condition was just wrong. MS makes other companies pay to have their drivers "certified", but won't extend the same courtesy to application developers??? Last time they twisted the mixture screws like this, Corel bit the dust. Who are they trying to ruin with redevelopment costs this time? As for being "behind the curve", some of us have a lot more things to do on our networks than beta test MS development follies for free.

While I will concede Windows is not perfect it?s better than using a mac. You complain every chance you get about Microsoft and their products, but the truth is they are better. Does anyone remember why NT was such a big hit when it came out? Because they bundled things with it, like TCP/IP, while other companies charged you for such things.

I didn?t hear anyone complain when they adopted NT as a mater of fact they were quite happy about it, maybe because then Microsoft was the startup in the OS would any people felt that buying MS products was a way to stick it to UNIX providers. Who knows and really, who cares. You people will always find something to cry about, something that?s not good enough, if you think your so damn wise then why don?t you produce something beside useless post like this one.

Patches are a part of life every software vendor has them. Grow up and get use to it.

"if you think your so damn wise then why don?t you produce something beside useless post like this one." Or ^ that one!

Windows NT competed primarily against Novell 3.11 and 3.12. Quite often a business or government agency would have BOTH (Novell and Unix), one for file store and print queue, the other for application serving. Each required expert administration, but the benefit was highly secure and properly compartmented data.

Then came Windows NT. It looked just like Windows 3.1 which was taking the client and desktop market away from... well, it *created* the desktop market. Because of the look and feel, a business no longer needed to hire a CNA/CNE but could just use its own clerical staff to run the Windows NT boxes. Not very well, of course, but who cared?

> Windows is not perfect it?s better than using a mac.

In what way? At least with a Mac, plug and Play has been there and working pretty darn well for about 20 years. Windows only really started getting there with XP.

Maybe for an administrator you have to hate Macs because you would be out of work quicker. Like one theory of why IBM dropped OS/2 - they could make more money setting up and administering NT than they could from OS/2, which pretty much worked out of the box from day one. (Caveat, at least for 2.1 onwards...)

> Does anyone remember why NT was such a big hit when it came out? Because they bundled things with it, like TCP/IP, while other companies charged you for such things.

It was also there for nothing in Unix and Mac had built-in networking very early on where you just plugged in the cable.

I use Windows for one reason only, the company I work for uses it. That's it. I suppose I'll just have to:

> Grow up and get use to it.

The whole tone suggests we poor users should never complain when MS sends out duff products. If we don't complain, how will we get better stuff? Even if MS wants to help its customers, how would they know if people don't complain?

Dude you have this all wrong... If you are going to write stuff like the above, I'd advise you to get your facts straight.

First of all Windows 3.1 was copied (Albeit very poorly) from the Mac.

Apple Sued M$ for the copying of their setup, and in the end M$ settled out of court with Apple saying that they would write programs for the Macintosh, which they previously hadn't been doing... Apple took the deal.

Windows NT then copied the Mac better, renaming the Mac's "Trash Can" to the "Recycle Bin". This was the first Windows OS to implement Apple's idea of the Trash Can.

It was also the first Windows OS that could't get it's own TCP/IP implementation right until after you had installed SP2 or above. This resulted in the fact that you couldn't start or join TCP/IP based Windows NT domains until you had installed SP2 or above.... Until SP2 came out, you were stuck running the non-routable NetBEUI... Or for those admins who needed routable protocols, there was always NetBIOS over IPX/SPX ]}:- >

Everyone who has supported or even used computers long enough, remembers the nightmares of Windows NT SP5 and 6... which resulted in a quick release of SP7 (aka SP6a)....

Then came Windows '95... The only OS I know of (apart from Win Me) that had more bugs than a cockroach nest. Consequently it had to undergo numerous revisions (each with different "features" and didn't even support USB properly until OSR 2.1 - 2.5.) This OS was the one that had the exact same desktop layout as Windows NT. It was also the OS that broke most of the applications around for Windows at the time, as it "tried" to run in 32 bit mode...

Macintosh users were faced with the same dilemma in 1989 when Apple's "System 6.0.7" OS was released... Minus about 2000 bugs and it truly ran in 32 bit mode. Users had about 6 months to run their legacy applications until the 32 bit lock came down hard and ppl were then forced to get the 32 bit versions of the apps.

This is why the slogan came about... "Windows '95 = Macintosh '89" ... See http://www.theapplecollection.com/Collection/pin/PinsBadges.html for details.

Macintosh OS's from System 6.0 through OS X are "all in one" OSs... That is they fully support any technology that was around at the time, and they did it without the majority of bugs that M$ OSs release for their clients to "beta" test.

I aren't saying that Mac is better than the PC here, as I use both and I support both, But on a timeline of OSs, MacOS sure as hell beat the crap out of any OS that M$ created on or around the same date, MacOS had less crashes due to the way that it's apps have to be programmed, in order to maintain compatibility between Macintosh Systems. Also if you look at the amount of issues with both the OS's there are far more patches needed to bring an M$ OS upto operating standard than there are for the Mac.

In fact the one thing that Mi?ro$oft are good at is patching their OS's, and sometimes they aren't even good at that! I guess when PC users get tired of all the M$ Bull$#!+... There's always Linux / Winlux / QNX ....

??? Hasta Lu?go !!!

Gazz.

If you really want to be free of Microsoft, then write portable code.

The software ought to be able to run on anything so, write in Perl, Java, Tcl. Does you app *really* have to have a GUI? If not, then you can write it to the ANSI X3.64 spec and run it from cmd or from an icon (or under xterm, gnome-terminal, etc.)

I have a client who has a Windows/XP machine and she hosed it, utterly hosed it, during a Windows/XP SP2 upgrade. She hasn't a clue what to do - and why should she? She's a professional something else, not a computer expert. We don't let drivers muck around with the emission system on a car, why do we let ordinary users muck with their operating systems? Anyway, I talked with this woman about converting to linux. All she does is word processing, E-mail, and real estate. Should be simple, no? No! Because some ******* *developer* decided to implement the application as an X-control instead of as a java applet or doing it all on the server. So she is locked in to Microsoft. So then I suggested she dual boot her machine, linux for the stuff that doesn't need Windows and Windows for the stuff that does (she can also use WINE). To my astonishment, she's thinking about it!


Jeff

Just a computer service tech that got check out a computer that had SP2 installed. The fun started, DVD player and CDRW were tole to reinstall drivers, but could not access either drive. After removall of SP2, WindowsXP still could not receive any input from either drive even though they were now listed as usuable in the control panel. Had to wipe and reinstall WindowsXP. So Much for SP2.

I wanted to get SP2 off my system after a couple blue screens of death (the kind you can't even use control + alt + delete to shut down from!)

I used that system restore feature and restored to the date just before SP2 was installed. System worked... SP2 didn't work....

"Like I have a pile of machines and networking equipment sitting around waiting for this chore."

Ever hear of a product called Ghost? You don't need a "pile" of equipment; just a good image of the PC and time to test... and you BETTER test every app in your organization before you put it into production or you may end up "shooting yourself in the foot"....

Yup, heard of Ghost, use it regularly. Here's how things work in most small-medium businesses. You have at least 5 different desktop platforms and 5-6 different notebooks. Why? Because they weren't all purchased on the same day. If you work for the government, an insurance company, or the medical profession you probably don't have this problem. Now add to the mix at least 5 departments that use specialty software, like Accounting, Sales, Drafting, etc. Don't forget the shipping stuff on the loading dock, and maybe some barcode stuff too. How does one usually "test" an application in this environment? Deploy it on one PC, let the end user bang on it, and if nothing breaks, continue deployment. I wouldn't even know where to begin testing some of these apps, and I don't need to spend the time to learn, even if I had it. Oh yeah, before deployment, ghost the PC so you can revert without all the comedy of "System Restore".

" I wouldn't even know where to begin testing some of these apps, and I don't need to spend the time to learn, even if I had it."

Note to self: If I ever see a resume with the name "jwbogart" on it, put it at the bottom of the pile.

So Chris, if you decide to work in IT/IS in a hospital, I expect that you are willing to get a medical degree, accounting degree, engineering degree and so on (or equivalent experience) to verify that all of the software is working correctly and giving the correct answers?
Don't forget that all past data as well as newly entered data needs to be verified. Just because an app will start doesn't mean that it is not broken.

I installed SP2, and noticed that the IE icon was missing in action. It wasn't in the Start Program list, on my desktop, or in the taskbar. This is a SOHO computer that I share with my wife. We each have our own passwords, and personal settings. IE was missing in action from both personal settings. Also missing were some of the on-line game programs (backgamon, spades, etc.) that are installed with Windows XP.

Windows XP Pro is installed on my computer.

Anyone seen this type of problem?

Assuming that IE still works - can you run it from the Start menu? - then you should be able to right-click anywhere on the desktop, go to Properties (or open "Display" in Control Panel-same thing).
Click "Desktop" tab
Click the "Customize Desktop" button and make sure "Internet Explorer" is checked.

I went and down-loaded this THING(awhile back...)... I sent Microsoft "all" of my problems that I was running into... All I got was an "Apology"---nothing more... That's better then I've gotten before from them... Words---with nothing more----"typical" Microsoft... Bill Gates could give a rats' A__ about weather or not HIS companys' software is "totally" compatible. He's that kind of Corporate CEO---that's:"CHARTS AND GRAPHS","BLACK OR RED","PROFITS AND MARGINS",ETC.,ETC. When I had enough of IT(SP2)---I deleted the thing... I got 75(+)Mb's back.. That was the good thing.. A firewall---What a fring'in joke!!!! Norton did better----years back with theirs!!! I think Microsoft should "stop" having the general public be the guinea pig for their companys' software... Remmember Windows 98????? Perfect example... The way things are developing---I see a large transition to Linux... NO XP/64 till maybe 2007???!!! Unless they redo Longhorn---to become "Shorthorn"... The hardwares' been there for quite sometime now;but, NO operating system to "support" it!!! Just telling it---from my own experiences---good luck!!!!

I see that you say you had problems, yet cannot share those problems with the public. I also note that you cannot complete a sentence either so whether it is due to medication or drink, the world shall wonder. You were fortunate to receive an apology from MS for a probable PIBKAC issue.

Many people, including myself, have been running SP2 since beta and have experienced no issues. I play games, type code, serf the net...no issues. The only thing I have noted is that I have fewer problems than I had since SP1. My systems at my office are the same way and my network is running flawlessly. IMHO, SP2 was a necessary chage to correct the holes in the previous beta release of Windows XP.

As I always say, software that requires more than 1Mb in patches is never final, it is still beta.

If you wish to partake in this beta test, then buy the package. If not, go simpering unto your Linux buddies and stop ranting about nothing.

Kmeyerkorth, some people like myself would live to participate in a beta test, but doing the work I do, I can not afford the time.

I think the issue is that the more exotic the system set-up, the more chance you run into problems. In my case, my machine is quite a well looked after set-up. SP2 just slided in. Two programs became inoperative, but a repair install cured that issue.

As to Linux? Got a lower powered computer here that I'm using to learn Linux. I must admit that as an operating system and the open nature of Linux, it beats Windows to the finishing line by miles. For once there is an operating system where one can actually make it do what you want it to do and not have to fight the operating system to get the job done.

Still, nuff typed.

PIBKAC ????

I tend to agree, since the service pack upgrade, my NAV has been creating runaway processes, ccapp.exe and I've had to turn off the auto enable just so that I can download my e-mail then turn it on again and hope that it does not create a massive runaway process. Symantec noticed this as a problem and notified MS, but for the time being, the wonderful work of Microsoft contiues. Is there no one there who does any quality assurance before releasing this stuff.

Microsoft doesn't believe in Quality Assurance as anyone can plainly see. All we have to do is look at the history of Windows. Why did it take 6 service packs to get NT 4.0 up to speed? Some of the holes have been so obvious that I would be ashamed to put a companys name on it. This whole security thing is not something that started yesterday. Microsoft has had plenty of time to research their software to find the bugs before they release it. There will always be some problems that come up but a little investigative work before release would go a long way towards smoothing out the wrinkles. I have a number of machines running XP and a couple that have SP2 on them. I only ran into one problem and that was solved by updating the management console program.My Norton Antivirus is working fine and haven't had any other problems.

I've told home users who can't configure (in advance of) SP2 (90% of those who experience problems) to roll back, using system restore, to a pre-sp2 state. The difficulty of a proper config exceeds the ability of the average home user. The tech support requirement to explain it exceeds the average users willingness to pay. This Service Pack is (IMO) satisfactory for enterprise but NOT suitable for granma. I will advise home users generally (for other than power users or those with excess disposable income) to avoid it.

I agree with the person who said that we brought this on ourselves by giving the world to MS - and it wasn't the techies that did it for the most part; it was often management who wouldnt recognise their server if they tripped over it in the hallway. However, that's a moot point. It's here and it's ubiquitous.
What I dont get is this:
I have a client that after installing XP2 could not boot her machine - not to safe mode, not to a command prompt - but she does get an error message. How difficult would it have been for MS to offer an option at that point to revert to the previous configuration? Everything required is already built in to the OS. Instead she was told by Dell to take her machine to a repair shop, have them backup all of her data, and they would tell her how to wipe her HD clean and reinstall from scratch. Then, of course, she could bring it back to me and have me put the pieces back together.
Gee, thanks Bill, for sharing the wealth.
Garry Allen

The latest: IE mysteriously disappeared. I haven't gotten to the machine yet, so I don't know why or how or where, but IE is gone!

Worse, since 90% of the people use IE, the people who wrote the app wrote it to IE; so the fact that mozilla, opera, netscape, and firefox are working is just not helpful.

My phone has been ringing off the hook from friends and family complaining about broken apps. C'mon, Windows is supposed to be an OS for ordinary people.

The IE disappearance happened to me too, after applying SP2 - but otherwise, things seem ok on the 4 machines we've done so far. (knock wood..)

To get IE back: Display Properties | Desktop Tab | Customize Desktop | Re-check IE in the Desktop icons.

Cheer up - NOBODY could be calling us. ;^)