Discussion on:

IT certs: Be-all-and-end-all or ticket to ride?

IT certs are like a driver's license - it proves that you know the basics of the task (how to drive a car), but it doesn't mean that you can racing at Indy the day you get licensed.

In my 20 years in IT, I've run into many people who thought that they knew it all because they passed the tests - it's a different world when you're trying to get equipment from many different vendors to work as one big happy family.

It's true - certifications do provide a decent
baseline. Like Erik, I don't believe that
they certify someone as an expert.
However, there's been a lot of certification
bashing lately. Make no mistake, if you
pass an exam you are demonstrating a
basic competency level. But, like Paul
said in the previous post, it doesn't
automatically qualify you to do real-world
troubleshooting. A beginner with only
certification will need to be helped along
initially by other more experienced techs
and engineers.

Just because someone walks in the door with MCSE does not mean they are "knowledgable" in the field. I've run across people whom have them and know less than I (and I am not certified) and that boils down to experience. Many people are "paper MCSE's" with little to no background, so one must look at the person's experience before saying "your hired"

I agree with you about IT certs. Let me take your analogy one step further: Even if someone passes their driver's test, it still doesn't make them a good driver.

Hi, I dont agree that IT Certs are a help, agreed that the Certified guys know & have info about the Certification but when it comes to actual implementation thta re usually blank, eg. I interview a lot of MCSE / MCP guys but they hardly know about crimping, resolving faults in NT etc.

Hi,
This is a 2-parter - longer than the allowable space provided. I took the time to read through all the threads. I read some disgruntled people but first to let you know, I am a female who had to work just a little harder to get ahead in the ITfield but never complained. I have always loved my job and still do. I did my job and pulled my load and expected to be treated no differently than a man and they have all respected me and very comfortable around me for that.

I am in agreement with Eric and the rest of the readers. One thing that was failed to be mentioned is the fact the no one person will ever be a "pro" or an "expert." With the ever fast-past changing technology, one has to be continually up-to-date and educated in all aspects of IT all the time. I myself will never claim to be a pro or an expert, although I have been in the IT field for over 20 years (since 19) with two degrees in computer sciences and very well knowledged in PCs and various networks, etc. Itook the time though the years to continually educate myself. I know people who are test takers but don't have the work experience to back them up. I know other A+s, MC$Es, MCPs, etc. that do not have the experience knowledge for the job. As for a very dear friend of mine (has a degree) who never knew much about PCs/networks decided to get his MC$E after retiring from the military. I helped him in PCs. His high tech experience was flying those high-tech aircrafts. He thought easy street $$$ but later found out that it is not that easy and had to start out at the bottom. Myself -- I was very stubborn and said I would never get any certs just to have that piece of paper to tell an employer I know my job! Well, I have changed my tune and decided to go ahead take the time and spend the $$$ and am currently getting all my certs - A+ MCP+I, MCSE.

And, just because one has the experience, education, and certs does not mean the continuing to educate ones self stops there. Also, perfecting ones customer/people skills is another skill in itself that is a lost art today. I help as many people as I can with what knowledge I have.

BTW: People who think the certs will get a big $$$ salary, think again as to where you live and the location. That makes a difference as well. Give an example: I took an $18,000 cut to move to the city I livein now which is one of the 10 largest and the lowest paying in the nation! I have my own business now but just for grins, I went on an interview for a salary of $24,000 (another 11g's less)!!! Yes, you heard right! The interviewer asked me if I had an A+, MC$E, and a CNE. I responded nicely that if I had those, I would not be there nor in this city and left! So, in reality, it all depends on the locations and/or the company for the type of $$$ you want. Don't be greedy. It is best to do your own research on the area and the companies you are applying for first. Make inquiring calls and get input from other employees. Think first, am *I* for this company? What can this company do for *me*? I "interview" the companies to find what is best suited for *me*. After I get my certs then I will know where to go. Hope this can help someone.

Sorry for the long story but like to talk. Thank you for listening to me. MsFixxit

My experiences confirms msfixit statements. I also ran a computer business on the side rather than take a local computer job for a menial wage, but shut it down to pursue teaching computers. I have 2o+ years of military computer experience and got aC.S. degree after the military. After teaching six years, I was let go and discovered that technology had blown past me. I moved to "HOT" Atlanta because there I could make three times the wage for the same effort. Certifications open the employer's door, but theory alone makes no one an expert in any system. I am reminded of the medical profession were in the begining most doctors were general practicioners; today most are specialized. Find your field, get certified, become an expert, but diversify your income sources.

I've hired people with a 4 year MIS degree and industry certified employees as well. I must say that the certified people have at least setup and administered a server, whereas the 4yr. folks "saw" it done for 1 day. A healthy mix of Technical Assoc. degree students from 2yr programs could be the best answer.

One of the things that I have not seen come to light is the age factor of an MCSE with no exp. I have had my mcp+I and MCSE for NT4.0 for over a year and have had only 3 companies that would even give me the time for an interview. I am nearing 40. What gives?

I am 40+, went to A+ & MCSE schools (no previous IT job experience) and have the certification. Certification=Employment is somewhat of a Myth promoted by the Training Schools, most are there to make money and have you pass the test. Sure you learn some basics, but as I am finding out there is no substitute for working experience. I received my Certs in 2/99, I am now working at my second job as an IT Engineer. I have learned more in the 4 months on my current job, then I learned in the 7 months of MCSE school. Now, I know why I experienced the same things you are now experiencing in trying to find employment; companies very reluctant turn the Sys. Admin. over to "rookies". My current employer hired me for my past management experience and was willing to train and let me gain OTJ experience. Draw on your previous employment expertise and combine them with what you now know about IT. You ask What gives? It's not your age, in fact you should represent yourself as being more stable and reliable than your younger counterparts; use this to your advantage, however you may still need to get some experience somewhere before some will hire you; try to find work as help desk or tech support first. I hope this helps.

Certification should never have been thought of as proof of expertise. Like a BA, it demonstrates that the person who has earned has a minimum amount of knowledge and skill. No BA is an expert, nor is any MCSE. But each has a foundation to build on.

In my case. I came to IT with a PhD in another discipline and years of experience as a writer and editor. That was my ticket into the field. Studying for an MCSE--and earning it--I got a basic knowledge about networking and IT more generally. With that certification, my firm could afford to let me work on networks and gain the esperience that I lacked. I now have my CCNA as well and a networking career.

James Voorhees

There really is no substitute for experience. I have a Bachelors In Computer Science. When I graduated from College I thought I would know it all and jump right into a promising carreer as a Systems Manager. I got the job but it sure did not comeeasy. After 5 years in the IT field I realize that my degree was a good stepping stone, but my experience is invaluable.

James,
I am at the end of my training at F.A.U.
I dont think I know everything I need to be an expert at networking but I do think it helped quite a bit. I am searching for what I would call an entry level position, so I can learn from other established MCSE's.
Thanks, Scott Jordan

I think this is the first time I have agreed with Erik on something. Thanks for the info.

I think that the whole industry is to be blame for. In some organizations they look for fresh people with no "bad" habits while others do not care or are only looking for old timers.
For me the MCSE came as a need because now the industry will not hire or even look at your resume unless you have some certificates, then the industry turn around and wants some one with multiple certificates offering low pay for a job that in reality you will need 2 or 3 persons to accomplish. (Perks added).

I have been in the computer industry for over 10 years. I dont have a college degree and or any certificates. I was able to push my self into new areas of the IT industry. I have noticed now that I am looking to get into the different feild of the computer Industry I see that just any Joe blow can get a certificate if the study the book. I hope the restructure this real soon because it is affecting the salary range for the people who do have the product knowledge.

In order to make the certifications a true meter of ability, one needs to use their real world experiences. Boot camp graduates may have never touched a keyboard before in their life, but the cert opens doors to experience that would have never beenopen to them before.
What is the best path to the ultimate job? How do I get the job to gain the experience without the Boot-Camp cert in my pocket? A prudent employer takes into account both certifications and experience when hiring a tech, and the experience is the key to building a skill set.
I know I am rambling, but it boils down to which comes first, the experience or the cert?

And I am still working on getting my certs. Right now, I have an A+, and am trying to decide if the expense of an MC$E+I is worth it.

But I wasn't even asked about certifications when I was hired for my job, which involves everything from PC Support to server wrestling. Instead, they looked at my work background, which included experience as an electronics tech in the USAF.

Sometimes the best 'cert' is military experience!

LorieJ...
I switched careers and got my mcse. I presented myself to current employer as someone who has a benchmark of certain skills and who is a)eager to learn b)resourceful and c)has shown an apptitude for learning and applying what has been learned. I came into my current position (LAN admin/PC support) without flaunting my MCSE status. I am very grateful for this opportunity because I actually took a pay raise from my old insurance claims job from $44k to $47k/yr!!!! So it can be done.

Like LorieJ I went the experience route. Pushed into the field as my first career and did it that way. I don't have a college degree, military experience or any certs (working on my MCDBA currently). As we can all see from as many discussions as there have been lately on this topic it's quite possible to be successful either from going the experience route or the cert route to start with. I think one thing that has kind of been overlooked is simply personality. Those that view their career withlots of drive and optimism are those of us that are able to become successful and overcome those initial "bumps in the road" despite which track they take to get into IT. Whether you start of with no certs and go for experience then possibly do the certs later, or whether you get your cert as a knowledge building tool and stepping stone and then work on building your experience I commend you. The IT field can be a really frustrating one to stick with especially when you are first starting in itdue to it's fast paced changes and everything else. The "paper MCSE's" that doctor their resumes and stuff to start in positions that they aren't qualified for will never vanish (although the numbers might shrink), but if they are just interested inmoney they won't have the drive to stick in the industry for too long. Either their employer will realize the person can't cut it or they will simply burn out. No point in us really bitching about it anymore (and I've done it a lot lately so that includes me).

Anyway, kudos to those of you that enjoy IT whether you've done it a long time or are just starting. To get into the field and be able to stick with it can be difficult enough. If you can hack it though despite how you started you should give yourself a pat on the back because you obviously have the right stuff.

When it comes time to throw yourself into the vast resume pool those certs look great but when your negotiating with a fellow IT superior for a postion that demands you get-in-and-get-it-done those certs won't impress anyone but yourself. If you can't outperform your interviewer based on what you know about what's needed, your out. Certs may help your confidence, but companies are paying the bucks to those who earn it, not to those that look like they earn it.

I have several certs on my walland I love them all. Getting certified is like getting a manicure and haircut. It more fully represents the quality and stature of the person wearing them.

You may dress like Regis but if you can't walk the walk your certs won't buy you any higher figures. But if you CAN walk the walk, those pretty papers will accent that Eddie Bauer wardrobe just dandy. You will feel better. You will know more. How you use it is what counts.

I have seen alot of MCSE's that simply don't have the experience to deal with real world networks.

I started with no experience. Got my CNE and gained experience as I studied. Remember that the certification or college degree is the beginning of a career, not the end. I was glad that I took cne classes. Now that I am in a real life CNE job, all those classes make sense.

i think eckel is on track,where i work the experienced techs are getting the shaft,because their people with certs and no experience and giving them better jobs with better pay!!

I fully agree with what you are saying, around here, we have an overwhelming amount of what we call "text book mechanics". People who have the know how to sit a test, but can't interpret a nslookup. All know what i'm saying? It always annoys me to see these people, because they ahve such high expectations but yet they get the dumbest jobs, which don't match their egos. I used to be a trainer in my previous job, and we had all sorts of MCSEs, MCP+I, whatever, come into the job (an internet helpdesk) and tried to blast us with textbook knowledge. At the end of the day, some of them ended up really disgruntled, but they knew that this was the only job that would take them with 0 yrs experience. A good example is an individual on the 'billing help' helpdesk. This individual had and MCP+I, MCSD, MCSE, CCNA, yet was providing billing enquiry support because he couldn't get up to the technical support level. This even gets to the point where it made my training position a little difficult. In my last class, I had a hard time getting tcp/ip/networking information across to an individual with a computer science degree, who decided not to listen to me because i didn't have the same qualification as him. All I wanted to say is good on ya, and that although certifications may look good on your CV, it shouldn't be confused or marketed as a one step solution to success.

I have about 10 years of experience and got my MCSE last year. When I hire people for positions in helpdesk and admin. I give them real world problems in our test lab in there second interview. We change/delete/corrupt files on several PC's and thecandidates have 1 hour to figure it out.
This test gives me some benchmark to what they know. I look for experience and having a Cert is a PLUS. When candidates put on there resume that they have a Cert., I want to see that they know the material. 8 out of 10 people that say they have the Cert, fail miserably in our test lab. Too many paper MCSE's

I have been slaving in a network office for several years. Over 1000 users, 1200 boxes. Supported by 2 self-taught Administrators, no help desk, no training funds, ever. Last week, as our janitor was passing through, he mentioned that he had just passed his final test and had completed his MCSE. For the paltry sum of $6000, he learned how to pass a few tests. Am I jealous? Nope...This situation exists because Certs have been pimped by Microsoft & Co. Books, Videos, CBTs, Flashcards, PrepTests, Web Sites, Boot Camps: all with the Microsoft Approved stamp on them. The most important part of your article shows the truth in most of these cases, you will weed out the wanna-bees in 2 seconds flat. I love studying for certs, and passing them through my own hard work and ability. In the end, IT WILL pay off. Or I'll find a nice quiet job taking out the trash. Late -Ray

I am a relative newcomer to the field and at times I'm certain I know nothing at all and am certainly sure I do not know everything. I'm on a helpdesk and have A+ and Network+ and am working to get an MCP in NT server before the test goes away. Why?It looks good, of course! Seriously, though, I studied my butt off to get the ones I have and am approaching all future tests the same way. (Very disappointed in the ease of the Network + test, by the way.) I figure I need to actually know as much as possible to ofset the lack of real world experience. I have a lab machine running NT and a client win95 machine so I can emulate as much as possible. When I get this one behind me I will install NetWare 5 and begin on that. I hope that having some width to make up for my lack of depth will turn the key for me. Now the real trick is finding some position where I will not starve while I build up experience and at the same time not be treated like a total moron because I was foolish enough to think I had a career before. If someone knows the solution to that magic trick, I'm all ears!

Just got my A+ certification
now working on my CISCO CCNA
then on to MCSE 2000.....

my problem is I'm sick of studying
so much! then when I finsh what?
it's all out dated! and now back
to the books.

it's seems like the IT field is never ending
then even a few months from now I will forget
some of the stuff that I already learned then
what?

Help I need a life!
Eddie

Certifications look really nice on the wall and your resume and will probably get you in the door for an interview when when I sit you in front of a router you'd better know what you're doing or I'll give you das boot. I am amazed at how many MCSE'sand CCNA's (Even one CCNP) that I interviewed that don't know the difference between a router and a switch.

When I hire I rarely look for certs. It means much more if someone has a history of IT jobs than certs. I don't expect anyone to keep all the necessary information in their head. That's why there are books available. If I feel it's necessary I'll put an employee through a cert program, but that's rarely the case. Most times a good job history and common sense will outweigh any cert.

Generally speaking, certs are a waste of valuable time. They never give newbies the answers that they need in the real world, and, for someone with experience, the real-world answers will get you flunked out of class.

All a cert means is that you can memorize a huge manual and spew out the answers that they want to hear.

Don't get me wrong, I think certifications are a great way to get your foot in the door. But don't get a MCSE before you have ANY tech exp. It makes you look bad, and it makes the cert look bad.

Get a MCP, or a CCNA.. and then get an entry-level position on a help desk or in tech support. Having passed two or three tests will get you in the door (proving your serious) without any false expections of being an expert..

Once you get a job, THEN finish up the MCSE while gaining on-the-job experience... If you walk in with a MCSE and minimal practical experience, you're setting yourself up for a fall.

My boss hired someone with her MCSE, nice gal, but I'm not lying here... she DIDN'T know how to update a video card driver. A few questions later, and I realized she had only loaded NT once (on her home PC) and had NEVER configured any network components.

I hated to do it, but I got my boss to fire her the next day... I need someone to help me. I have no problem training our in-house help-desk people, hopefully giving them a chance to move up some day, but I couldn't spend the time this person was going to require to get her up to speed.

And yes, I asked my boss to include me on future interviews.