Discussion on:

Is Microsoft losing ground in the enterprise?

Of course, isn't this what the consumer has been saying for a while now. Sure, Microsoft has always dominated the desktop OS, but world-wide Lotus, Oracle, Sybase, Novell and *ix (eg: Linux)are far superior for stability, scalability, performance and price.

An example would be Windows XP, or for that matter any desktop OS beyond Windows 98se, has been full of bugs, bloated with un-necessary software, and about as stable as six balanced bowling balls. "If you can ever get it to work without falling over, it doesn't take much to bring it down in a heap".

As for their servers, well, NT4.0 certainly was nice. I mean sure, the ease of use of the Windows 2k platform was better, and Plug-and-Play was noticebly missing. But then again, it had just about as much pre-installed as Windows 98 version C. Not to mention actually getting "prompted" for information.... unlike the 1.2GB automated FULL install of XP.

NT4.0 was the point where they concentrated less on fixing bugs and reapiringholes, and more time on defending Anti-trus law suits, bundling heaps of apps together, and making flashy cosmetic changes... thus Win2k.

With all that money floating around in R&D, why can't they produce a stable secure OS? Maybe the outcome would have been better if instead of the DoJ splitting up Microsoft (now in doubt again!), they forced the Redmond Giant to become open Source.

Then maybe, just maybe, some underpaid geek in somewhere like Australia could fix the problems that the over-paid MS designers haven't.

Just my thoughts. For now.... I use Mandrake.

If you consider 98SE stable I don't know what you're using it for.

I find nothing but frustration with the crashes on my 98SE boxes, and have enjoyed fantastic stability by comparison using Win2K and now the XP release candidates. The only time I've seen Win2K act balky was when it was being used on a Banyan Vines network, where I assume the drivers were rushed out the door as a last gasp to the roduct line as the company "reinvented itself" under another name. And even THAT is more stablethan the 9x boxes on this LAN.

As far as Me goes, well I DID look at the betas, but never was motivated to install Me on anything. I hear a lot of bad news, but without personal experience beyond those betas I have a hard time rendering any judgements there.

Are you sure this isn't sour grapes about the cost of upgrading? Don't get me wrong, I'm cheap too, but 98SE??? Have you even TRIED Win2K or XP? They feel like smooth paved roads after driving back-country two-tracks.

I have an ad that claims that Windows 2000 Professional is thirteen times more reliable than Windows 98.

I can say, from experience, that the claim my be right.

Unfortunately, it only means that my reboot frequency has decreased by a decent amount. It does NOT mean that my PC is as reliable as I would like.

For example, I've had to reboot once today because of a lockup. But, thankfully, it has been the only reboot this week.

Windows 95,98,98se was never designed to run in the Corporate environment. While Microsoft screwed itself by not adding PnP to NT 4.0 Workstation and just running with that (then again you have W2K).
Active Directory is supposed to solve all of our woes with Domains but again they just stole that from Novell NDS. While I can see the need for simplifing administration and PnP for ease of installation but who are they kidding. Why do you think IBM and RS/6000's are SO specific on their Hardware setup? One word STABILITY!
I can see Microsoft coming out with a COMPLETELY non-graphic OS with only HTML to manipulate settings.
I am rambling a litle bit but go figre. I spend more time checking for hackers and applying Service Packs for Microsoft's security holes than I ever did in Administration. This must be Microsoft's new mission. (as I see it)

Build a NEW Server OS (XP) and make it so easy to Install, Cluster, and Administrator that you have the time required to apply Service Packs and try to help Microsoft figure out how the Hackers will get in next.

Does or did anyone really think they [MS or anyone for that matter] could hold that type of product market share Forever?

Windows is still the only OS that passes the "Granny" test.

My mom can load, boot and even re-install Windows. She can't do the same with Linux/Unix.

The Granny Test is a good measure for PC oriented consumer products.

If someone came up with a version of Linux that passed the Granny Test, and also had a low cost set of 'Granny Friendly' application packages, would you consider Linux as an option?

I suspect you might, based on your comments.

Isn't running a web server, an application server or making Enterprise IT purchasing desicions. So let's keep her out of this. In fact I might not be satisfied by the same hardware and software that novice t'phobes are comfortable with. You still use AOL?

I get so sick and tired of users complaining about how "my 98 locks up, or "my ms OS sucks" or the best one yet, "Linux is GREAT!" Hey folks, maybe if you don't download pirated software on one of your warez groups, or any other junk that you download from the web, or were so cheap that you actually put an AMD on your machine, your machine might not lock up. I have 3 NT 4.0 servers that haven't been rebooted in a year and a half (exept for sp installs and updates). It seems to me that the problem is not the OS, it might just be the user.

I needed a spare monitor one day - like right then. So I took the monitor off the Novell 4.11 Server. That was about a year ago. the only time it needed restarting was during an power outage. It restarted itself when the power came on. (it also selfshuts down when the batteries get week)

Service Packs - - what are those???

Wake up and join the rest of the enterprise world. I have execs calling me day in and day out begging me to convert Novell boxes to NT. Is there even a Novell anymore? Now i know what you're going to gum back to me about reliability and NFS and abunch of other junk like that. Well wait, I see my stock ticker rolling now . . . Hum, Novell (NOVL), $3.77/share and wait Microsoft(MSFT), $54.53/share. Lots of future for NOVL. Oh, and sorry about your Office. I seem to remember that Corel WP was pretty cheap the last time I looked. If you have such a beef with Office2000, maybe you should look into making a switch. Don't worry though, the other 85% of society has the converters in Office to read your wp docs .

do you like having the same thing every day for breakfast lunch and dinner?

Those are those large downloads named something like nw4sp8a or nw51sp3 that make a reliable, robust, and fast NOS even better. In the case of Novell Netware, they add functionality, or tweak performance - not needed by 95% of customers, but available. (Heck, I've had a Netware 5.0, original, unpatched server running as a Web server [NIAS] for a couple years now.
Of course, in the enterprise where I am the Senior Network guy, I keep them fully patched.)
This is called "Proactive".
In the case of, ahem, not to mention any names, other OS'es (I can't bring myself to call something a NOS that let's you play solitaire or compose a letter to Granny at the server console), service packs are huge files, grudgingly provided and even more grudgingly acknowledged (after weeks of media attention) by the OS mfr as being critical, required patches, to keep the enterprise from imploding or being hacked and company secrets stolen.
Called "Reactive".
Am I biased? Yup.
Does MS have a lot more Market Share (What does MS mean, after all?) Yup.
Is Novell guaranteed to survive? Nope.
But I prefer to use a better product, regardless of stock price.
NDS vs Active Directory (which STILL doesn't fully exist)? Gee, let me think....

I get so sick of hearing this. Sure, netware runs forever as a file/print server. But so what, so does NT or Lantastic or Windows for Workgroups for that matter.

You can now print directly from workstations to printers across the LAN, so you don't need Novell. You can do NAS or a dozen other things for file services, so you don't need Novell for that.

If you start using NetWare for things besides file/print, things get a lot hairier. As long as NetWare is cooperative multitasking (one bad app brings the whole thing down) it will never be a reliable application server.

MSOffice 2000 causes me the most grief when it comes to crashes and lockup's

Imagine that

Please have your Granny visit my Granny and get her internal modem to PNP, be recoginzed of just plain work.

If Granny had a good stable OS, she wouldn't need to be able to reboot and reinstall. In the enterprise with thousands of PCs to support I need a reliable OS, not one that Granny can diddle with. Actually, it is much better if the end users can't diddle with it since most don't seem have Granny's skill level. It always interests and annoys me that anytime MS launches a new version of something it is declared as wonderful and only at that time is the older version acknowledged to have "issues". Granny could use DOS for a decade and not need to reinstall and she wouldn't waste so much of her late years waiting for the stupid thing to reboot, either. Face it, Windows of any version could and should be much better.

For give me if i am wrong but is this not a message thread about MS losing the enterprise market. Tell Granny to get off my LAN learn that enterprise solutions are not for desktops!

As for the original question MS will do what it always does. release a new OS wait for every one to find all the bugs then offer an upgrade for a nominal fee

jim
FYI: NDS rules! ADS blows!

The 'granny test' would be particularly applicable to a small business where the IT 'department' is the owner's computer literate 15 year old grandchild fixing things over the phone.

Not all businesses can justify a consultant or full time IT person, so something needs to be out there to pass the 'granny test'. At the same time, these businesses can justify a LAN IF the KISS principle is implemented.

Right now, MS appears to offer a solution that passes the 'granny test'. So for Linux to get a foothold in this market, it needs to pass the same test AND offer something extra.

...the article is talking about high-end enterprise solutions, not stand-alone home PCs.

sorry if i insulted your small bussness with the grandkid support that was not my intent but a few PCs pluged into a hub is not an enterprise solution.

jim

If Granny could buy a good system out of the box, she wouldn't have to worry about loading, booting, and - - -reinstalling.
My Granny would rather throw the bum system out the window. Lord forbid it crash on here. Hammers were made to fix problems like this.

I think that an important aspect, which is often overlooked, is the knowledge level of an average Windows Server admin as opposed to any flavor of UNIX admin.

Windows Servers are easy to navigate using GUI (especially that they look more and more similar to Desktop versions of the OS) and this is why there are a lot of people messing with it who should not be. It is harder and less attractive to mess with an OS configuration when it is console-based.

The point is: ?Do not compare OS run buy mostly morons, to the one run by pros. You may not be comparing the OSs, but an average support staff for a given OS.?

Sheesh. No body cares whatever whoevers granny does.

That same granny that can easily install Winblows is also helping to rapidly propagate the nimba worm and now the vote worm across the net and enterprise for those foolhardy enough to dependon ms and not do their weekly service patch updates.

Thanks granny! I say keep granny out of it. If she needs to re-install, give her the # to PC on call.

We are not adding NEW MS servers very often, although we are looking at upgrading our current NT 4.0 boxes to Windows 2K. Occassionally we add a new Windows server for some purpose or other, but only because it is the best OS for the job.

We have over 20,000 users, and support all of them on our NetWare servers, with Windows clients. We wouldn't even begin to think about switching to Windows servers. The Windows servers we have require more hardware to perform a single function, unlike the NetWare servers that do it all: file, print, anti-virus, email (GroupWise), and workstation configuration control (ZENWorks).