Discussion on:

Rescue a bad hard drive by swapping controllers

You may not have to find the exact controller - if it is made by the same manufacturer, looks similar, appears to have a similar ROM code, and is from a close-sized drive it just might work. I have swapped a couple cards before with luck. They seem to make the cards more generic so they can use them for several different models. Don't even think about opening the case and exposing the platters - if you disturb the heads you are done.

If the data is that critical that you have to unsolder any electronics, use a small wattage, BATTERY powered or DC powered soldering gun. The larger AC guns (like the 40 watt Weller soldering gun that looks like a gun) can produce stray AC currents that could destroy the electonics.

I'd also suggest to practice on another drive or two. You'll better understand what you're about to do, you'll sharpen your soldering skills (I haven't touched a soldering iron since I left radio, so I need thepratice) and you'll feel a lot more confident when you start the process.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing more of us try to repair a faulty board rather than run out and buy a replacement everytime. Sure, it takes a while to locate the bad component, order a replacement and swap it out, but that was *so* much fun. I enjoyed the awe from others whenever I successfully repaired a satellite receiver or CD player.

Of course, if I couldn't find the problem, I always blamed it on 'damage too extensive to justify the repair expense', but that's another story .

Rock on!
Dave

Hey Dave, I think we have a lot in common with that last statement.

You are right about the AC soldering gun. I don't want to turn this Hard Drive story into a thread about soldering, but we should keep in mind too, that most of those AC guns are too hot for todays small, sensitive electronics. It has been my experience that they have also thrown off a lot of magnetic waves. Would this affect the hard drive if used? For this type of work I recommend using a small butane gas soldering pencil with a fine tip (available at Radio Shack for about $30).

Oh, one more tip about Hard Drives (since we're on the subject.) I had bought a WD 22100 Caviar drive from a store I found on the Internet. These drives come with a 3-year warranty. Well, the drive went out after about a year so I looked on Western Digitals website for return information. I had to key in the serial number. I was stunned when the next page came back because it said this hard drive was NOT under warranty. I called Western Digital about this. They let me know that my drive was manufactured in an overseas factory and was not meant to be sold in the United States, so there is no warranty. The moral of the story is that it may appear that we're saving a few bucks by buying one over the web, but are we really? There are unscrupulous dealers out there who can get the drives cheaper overseas so they sell them. Buyer beware.

Dave,

You brought back some memories I used to repair VDTs, peripherals, and other mini-computer-like devices. With the advent of surface mounted components, I went on to replacing boards instead of chips since the chips became too small. I would love to be able to do that again, but I am sure those days are really numbered now since the process is so cost prohibitive.

I have the same problem with a Quantum Fireball lct 10, 15GB. It caught fire spontaneously (its a Fireball), and now I can't access any data; -----everybody leaves their computer systems unattended? I will pay for a similar seconduser disk in goodworking order.

Were you being figurative, or did it really flame out? If it did, did you ever determine the root cause? Definitely something I would want to avoid!

A high-power magnifying lens can sometimes save the day. A common failure in micro-electronics is a cold solder connection. A lot of circuit boards are made by flowing the minimum amount of solder that will form a connection, sometimes it is not enough and a bad connection will appear after time. I use a powerful lens and look at each solder point on the board and an X-acto knife to pick at them to see if they are loose. Sometimes finding and resoldering a bad joint will save the board.
Ofcourse, you need the right soldering equipment,
preferrably a grounded-tip solder station with temperature control.

I too have used a similar controller on, strangely enough, a WD drive. Luckily we have at least ten of each PC we support, but none of them had the exact same drive I needed. I also once recovered data from a drive reporting a bad controller by freezing it. Not sure why, but it worked as a last ditch effort.

Kris

I have a burnt out controller chip on a Quantum 26gb Fireball lct08 model, and I've read that the safest replacement is to find a controller board (it snaps in to the back of the drive) that has the exact assembly number etched on it.

A supportrep at Quantum said that drive geometry characteristics are so precise, using anything else may immediately wipe out the drive. How can one tell that soldering a chip from another board, even from the exact model number will work? I've seen another quantum drive with this model number and that chip looks identical to the burnt out chip on mine.

Having soldered since the vacume tube days,I would suggest at most the 25-40 watt pencil type or the low power "soldering station" for computer repairs. These are generally not transformer types and use a carbon cermanic cartridge, so no magnetics. I'd like to see someone use a gun type on a few .005 wide PCB traces.

I've seen it - it's not pretty!

AFAIK, freezing the drive works in the case where components on the drive controller or in some cases the drive it self overheats too quick to be used effectively.

Not something I'd ponder unless the data was absolutely mission critical and hadto be recovered, but that's why we all back up files, right?.

Ed.

Fortunately I have never had to swap out a controller even though I have had at least 10 drives go out with the same problem.

Probably harping on an old theme, but keeping archives of back-up's, and also makeing sure back-up's are current shouldprevent ever having to restore hard-drives.

My suggestion. Once you have repaired the drive (make sure you charge a hefty fee) remind the law-firm about healthy back-up proceedures (actually, consult them on it, and charge another hefty fee )

This is probably stupid, but I've never let that stop me before:

If you're running the drive as a slave, shouldn't that mean that its IDE controller electronics are bypassed? The controller on the master is being used, so why does it matter whether the controller on the slave is bad or not?

I've had drives before that won't function as a Master, but work fine as a slave, I thought it was because the drive was OK but the controller electronics were bad.

Somebody enlighten me here?

I think the signal for drive selection is what you are thinking of.Cable select is the other way around.

It turns out the article is talking about the controller card directly on the hard drive. There is also an IDE controller either on the system board or or a PCI IDE controller. The IDE controller controls the hard drive controller via the 40 pin cable. The hard drive controller then controls the heads and servo motor to position the heads over the data and read the data stored on the platters. In this article the IDE controller is OK because it still controls the master IDE drive, but the failed drive controller is fried. Data is probably still present on the platters, so the exercise is to replace the hard drive controller (usually just called "electronics") so the IDE controller can access the data on the platters and recover the drive.

I did this once on an old Seagate on a HP-3000. Mostly an exercise with jumper cables and connectors and mountains of dust-bunnies.

This was a pretty good article, well-written and addresses an issue without advertising for a vendor for achange.

I had same problem only with a toshiba laptop. One of our accounting clirks had hd failure on a 850mb drive. This drive had years end tax data.
I swapped the controller card from an old drive in the parts room. The drive came up with no problems. My manager was told after the swap. This
controller was a plug in as well. I even got a free lunch for my service.

There are several companies that are manufacturer
certified to open up a hard drive in a clean room. They take the platters from the dead drive and place them in a working drive.

Why risk loosing data due to dust or finger prints. Let the proshandle it.

I don't have a lot of experience with hard drives, but isn't this a motherboard issue since the controllers are on the motherboard? Why not locate a compatible motherboard?

IDE (standing for Integrated Drive Electronics) drives have the actual controller circuitry on the drive itself. The motherboard only contains host adapter circuitry, or the interface to the CPU, so the motherboard is probably not at fault. I have experienced the exact same message as noted in the original article on Compaq systems when the BIOS settings for the drive did not match the actual drive settings. On older Compaq systems the BIOS would not always correctly detect the drive settings, especially when there were multiple drives or when another drive had been in the same position, so the first thing I would make sure of is that the settings in the BIOS match the exact settings of the drive.

Why not get the computer that was given away, swap drives and try to boot it from there. The Compaq BIOS should detect the drive and fire right up.

IDE controllers are on the Motherboard, but today hard drive controllers are actually part of the hard drive. In the past, old computers used controller cards before hard drives started being manufactured with the controller.

Z

so the same problem in a dell box but I am unable to set the cylinder valut to that which is on the drive case all the others heads and sector are ok. but he size is incorrect.

in auto detect the values are ok but the drive size is way below that on the case 4gig to 30 mb

the only way to get the drive to boot without the controller failure error at post, is to use the cable select jumper in auto detect mode after data retrival I had to dump the box cause no other drive would work in it ant he wd drive does not work in any other box even with the cable select jumper on....

That system probably had a blown IDE interface on it. You were lucky to be able to get a drive to work on it long enough to get what you needed. By setting the drive to cable-select, you bypassed the Master Slave selection circuit on the motherboard.

There are actually several controllers involved in hard drive data storage and retrieval.

There are several stages between the CPU, and the IDE controller on the motherboard.

There are also electronics on the hard drive itself that control theplatter motor, head positioning, head selection, and the conversion of the analog signal to digital data.

In this instance, it was the controller electronics on the hard drive itself that had failed.

Chas

Swapped the controllers of an identical system and we were off to the races! Got all the info off the dead HD, then swapped them back.

Now, I'm waiting to see if my assistance I provided was a good enough barter for the attorney I helped for the legal advise I leveraging out of it...

Thanks again TheChas

Yes the IDE controllers are on the motherboard but the drive controllers are on the drive now days.

The IDE channel controller is a motherboard function (BIOS). The drive controller is on the disk drive itself.

why not just change a chip????????

Another source for old and/or obscure hard drives is eBay. They currently have 2 listings for the Caviar 22400 drives mentioned in the article.

After having built and repaired hard drives for Hewlett-Packard, I can tell you unequivocably, that - unless you are in a hard drive manufacturer's clean room - opening a drive is instant death. (A clean room is typically 20,000 times cleaner than an operating room.)

You can usually get away with swapping the controller board, but even damaging the aluminum-tape seal or playing with a sealed case screw can leak air and particles into the drive, leading to head crashes and physical media damage which can render the drive completely unrecoverable.

If you don't ever want the drive to work again, or want a desktop conversation piece, open it up. Otherwise, leave it alone.

First, it was a a Quantum 13GB 2 years ago. Then, another Quantum of the same model. On March of this year, it was a Maxtor 40GB. Last week, it also died. I replaced it with a Seagate 40GB.

The PC is a clone with an Asus motherboard and a PentiumIII chip.
Other PCs with the same configuration have the same history of Hard Disk damage: first, the BIOS S.M.A.R.T feature warns of an inminent disaster. Next, some noises. Then, if I have luck, I'm able to transfer the contents or restore a fullbackup to a new disk, before the disk starts to do louder noises and refuses to work.

Should I buy a new PC??

Wow, someone else with the same problem I had with an ASUS MB destroying hard drives. I've lost two drives on this box. Always thought it was a motherboard/IDE controller problem. One Quantum 20G only lasted a couple days.

Sounds like a coffeepercolator then goes belly up.

Next time, the whole thing goes out the window for a 3 story g-force test.

Yep, it happens. Not with Asus boards so far but several others. I just stick in a Promise, or similar, p.c.i. IDE card and kill the onboard IDE controller. The whole p.c. runs better. B.t.w. this always happens on via and other less expensive equipted boards.

I had the same problems a few years ago with a Shuttle AV61 PIII UDMA66 mobo. It smoked 2 new hard drives and a CD-RW before I ditched it. Computer Depot in San Diego (where I bought the board) and Shuttle corp. refused to help me with it. Haven't gone back to either one of them since.

Check the ASUS web site and some of the Hardware forums to see if there are any 'issues' with your motherboard. Is there sufficient airflow/cooling in the case, HDs produce a fair amount of heat on their own and don't like heat any more than any other component. Are you sure that your PSUs are adeqaute for the job, a PSU might claim to have the rating you need but it might not be very stable at that rating.

Finally you need to eliminate the envirnment. How hot is it where the PCs are located. How stable and 'clean' is your mains power supply I have had a lot of problems with recurrirng random component failures in locations where there is a very dirty mains supply, either isolate the mains supply to the PCs at source or at least fit heavy duty surge suppressors, though these won't fix a fluctuating supply voltage instead connect the PCs to a good UPS which will give you a clean protected filtered stable supply.

Compaq always has their own part number on the drive, usually on a tiny sticker that says "Replace with Compaq Spare...".
When I don't know what something is, I search the entire internet for anything that looks like a part number. It really works.

I've been in situations where I've deployed 20 or more units purchased at exactly the same time. They were all the same model compaq Deskpro, had the same size hard drives - yet had different brands of hard drives. Compaq built all of those machines in the same month, at the same location, yet they didn't have anywhere near identical drives. I wish this guy a lot of luck finding a match.

I have often used this method to recover data.
But please note :

Even identical WesternDigital model numbers may have different controllers.

For example, I have a WD200 that has a bad controller. I found another drive of the same model and removed the controller only to realize that the mounting holes were slightly different.

Closer examination revealed that the case was keyed to dissallow the installation of the replacement controller. Further examination revealed that the drive motors were not the same.

I am still looking for the proper controller match.

DriveGuys.com have 56 of the WD Caviar 22400 drives in stock for only $20.00! I doubt you'll be able to beat that anywhere! The direct link to the drive and info is:
http://www.driveguys.com/tabstyle/itemdesc.asp?CartId=1-ACCWARE-1599389JOYYU93&ic=WDAC22400&cc=&tpc=

In the article, you state to be carefull when opening the hard drive as one can easily harm the platters. Could you please expound upon this. Dust? Magnet? Thanks

This is very important... The heads 'float' over the platters on a cushion of air produced by the spinning of the platters. The distance from the platter can be as little as 3 microns, therefore a dust particle as small as 5 microns can lodge between them and begin 'scratching' or 'scoring' the platter eventually rendering the drive unusable.
The only time you want to open a drive is if you plan on never using it again! (or if you have a 'clean room' facility with a class 10 or above rating)

There are normally two components to a hard drive you can see - the controller card and the drive itself. It is usually ok to remove a controller card without damaging the drive itself. But the drives are vacuum sealed for a reason. Imagine a Boeing 747 flying 6 inches above the ground at Mach 4 and you have an idea of the tolerances involved - as well as an idea of why obstacles (dust, hairs, etc.) are a BAD thing.

Parts of a drive:

Platters - the actual storage media. They look likeshiny silver (or gold) discs, similar to a floppy's media disk.
Spindle - the part which spins the platters
Head - the electromagnet which does the work of reading/writing from/to the platter - very tiny.
Arm - a piece of metal (usually aluminum)that spaces and holds the heads.
Actuator - the electromechanical assembly that controls the movement of the head/arm assembly over the platters.
Controller - the firmware which coordinates all of these activites.

Simply put, hard drives are the most commonly failing computer components because they are arguably the most complex.

I have a Quantum Fireball 20.5 gig with a fried component on the controller. I can't seem to find another quantum of any sort around for parts or otherwise to try a swap. I really need to get some info off this drive. Will any other controller work?ie Maxtor now owns Quantum???
Thanks.