Discussion on:

IT pros take a cautious approach to unions

Although I wouldn't join one, there are several unions, but there might not be that many in the USA.
Please remember that there are other countries out there.

This applies to most americans in general

A guild would be a looser version of a union but may allow for a more collective voice, especially for those who live in areas where IT salaries are depressed. Guild memberships are optional and would allow members to negotiate their own salaries much like the Actors Guild or the guilds of the old days. A guild would also allow for levels such as journeyman and apprentice. Entry level IT workers could be apprenticed and mentored by journeymen. The advantage here would be a way for them to get their foot in the door and get their careers started much faster than if they had to follow more tradtional routes. Just a thought.

Having been forced to work as a union member in a closed shop, it was my experience that unions are not appropriate for data processing professionals. Perhaps, jobs such as computer operators are more suited to union membership when appropriate. Always remember that when people are treated in a proper manner there is no need for a union.

I belonged to a union for 20 years in a jet engine remanufacturing plant. From my experience, (and I don't mean to step on anyones toes), the union did a great job of keeping people employed who didn't want to work, and the people who actually caredabout their jobs had to carry their load. Also, your work performance didn't matter because you still got paid as much as the guy next you who twiddled his thumbs all day. I'm not saying that they are all like this, but I feel if you are a good worker, you don't need a union to take up for you. So I'm praying really hard that I don't have to join another union. Once again, I didn't mean to step on anyones toes, that's just my opinion.

While I understand your issue with deadbeats, who's fault is it? The last time I checked, the company has the right to manage or mis-manage, whatever the case maybe. As a union member I've seen plenty of bad employees get the boot without union involvement. It's when an employee receives discipline without proper cause that a union should react. Remember,without a union it's employment at will which simply means an employee can get fired just because, not just cause!!

If the only reason to have a union is to insure that employees don't get fired without cause, then we don't have enough reasons to want a union. Don't forget that many states already have labor laws, and some form of the E.E.O.C., that give employees somewhere to go to fight against wrongful termination. The potential "positives" of a union still don't outweight the potential "negatives" that they present.

As an IT professional AND a union shop steward, I can tell you that those laws are not uniform and, in many states, are written for management interests. I have spent a lot of my time defending talented people who were being pushed out once their work was integrated into the company. The laws in my state (Georgia) provide little relief for the workers.

But that's not the only thing that unions do... Overtime compensation, breaks and lunch periods, leave time, training, health benefits, etc.all come from unions working behind the scenes to get the laws passed. My brother used to mock my union involvement until he found out that his workplace wasn't so perfect after all and the laws supported the management since there was no contract in place to protect the workers.

Just look at the daily list of tech lay-offs. With contracts and a union to do the hard work for them, maybe some of those people wouldn't be holding signs saying "Will Code for IPOs." Talent and drive are all very well, but stock options aren't a stable replacement for a secure job.

I was laid off from AT&T with 17 days to go to collect my pension. If it weren't for the UNION (CWA) I would be out on the streets after all those years with no pension till I was 65.

In about 25 yrs of working experience, I can't remember anyone being fired just because, except for cases where the company had to eliminate a position.
I did see, in 9 years in a union company, the laziest people manage to keep jobs simply becauseit was nearly impossible to fire them due to the union. Once they cleared the first 6 months, they pretty much could retire from the company unless they committed a felony or made noise against the union. It was amazing how well they could work for six months.
What was more frightening was that the union didn't give a damn about the employees when it came to contract time. All they were concerned with was the perpetuation of the union. One example was that the union had a 45% unemployment rate and it let those unemployed vote on strike votes. Another one was the Union president turning down a lucrative settlement offer (better than they were asking for) from the company because it would damage the union??
I'd also be real careful aboutcategories of tech jobs. Think all the html coders could jump in on a complex C++ or VB project? Most unions use last in, first out.

Don't forget - a union is only as good as its members.

I am also a former union member. I used to think that the union was pretty good, until I was elected shop steward.
Then I learned that a union is like most other organizations. It's number one concern is what is good for it's self.
As long as benefiting the workers will help the union, the union will help workers.
But if the union will benefit more by ignoring worker's needs then the workers get the shaft.

Oh brother! If you are stupid enough to stay at a job, that pays too little, makes you work endless hours, and gives you no say over any aspect of your job, then you deserve all of the above. People, this is the most advanced, entrepreneurial, and personal choice driven country in the world! We have more choices out there than we have time for in our lives. So to say that you do not have any choice, must stay at your current job that sucks, the IT industry is supposed to go through a major change to create a saftey blanket for you, and we are all going to ban together to help you overlook your lack of motivation, self confidence, and willingness to make a change for the better in your life is rediculous! This entire thought process and discussion is a WASTE OF PIXELS ON YOUR MONITOR! Lets let people take care of their own shortcummings and get back to some REAL IT issues! Lack of jobs and choices in this industry doesn't exist!

I agree, the company is responsible for hiring quality employess. However, poor performance doesn't always show up immediately upon hiring. Unions have no place in our business. I don't need Pencil-pushing admins dipping in to my paycheck and hassling my company. In my fairly vast experience if you are a professional, that is, well trained and a hard worker, you will have people treat you like a king. There are so many hacks in our line of work, that more than likely customers have been burned by one at one time or another. I believe that Labor Unions have their place, just not in IS. We already get great salaries and usually have clean, safe working environments. If you get fired "just because" either you don't understand why, or you have done something wrong. If neither apply, then there are fundamental problems with the organization and who wants that? Aren't union slogans great? :>

No Union worth is salt supports lazy people.
Poor Managers allow this to happen.The idea of a Union is to support and protect workers of sweat shop employers,but it also has a responsibility to to the business to ensure that it remains in profit and in so doing secures stable and long term employment for all.

I whole heartedly agree with bmajors. In a previous life I was a local officer in a large union. I found 90% of the unions efforts were to protect 5% of the workers, most of whom deserved whatever peril they were in.
Like most things in life, Oneof the primary focuses of the union was recruitment. Follow the money. Do not sacrifice your individuality for a union.

While I was not a Union Member in a closed shop I have dealt with many Unions in the Construction Industry. My thoughts on the union is that they are only as strong as the people that you elect to represent you. In my case with the Union I was in the BA (Business Agent)was more worried about lineing his pockets then represting the membership. That in my opion is the most important thing to watch out for. Other then that I do in someways favor unions as the do have good Medical, Dental, and other benifits that are to your advantage. Such as helping the people that have just got out of school and can't find a job as is my case. I resently recieved an Interactive Multimedia AAS Degree in June of 2000 and still have not been able to find a jobin the field. It seems that if you don't have a BA or MA that you can't get a job any where in the industry. It seems to me that the only job that you can find with an AAS degree is a job at a fast food joint, which is not what I spent 30,000 going to school to get!

I have two sons who both grew up playing around with the family computer and both dropped out of school after two years of college. One quit because he wasn't sure what he wanted to study, the other because he took one computer system design course and decided he knew as much as the instructor. Both got jobs in the IT field immediately. For one it was a part time job at the university that grew into a full time system administrator job in less than a year with excellent pay. The other got a jobsetting up systems/networks as well as on site troubleshooting/repair. Today he has a very high paying job in the customer support field at SGI. Has the IT job market changed that much since 1995?

Nowadays, it's not enough to have the talent. Somewhere, someone decreed that all IT pros should have degrees in something not always appropiate to their jobs. So, in the cuthroat world of ever-diminishing IT opportunities, talent and seniority don't count. Your sons could be out the door tomorrow if their companies decide to hire cheaper fresh-out-of-college labor. Without some sort of official protection, there is not much they could do about it...

Where is "the cuthroat world of ever-diminishing IT opportunities"? I can't find the time for all the work flying around. If talent doesn't count, the job isn't very good or important. Having a degree is a definite plus, and if you don't have oneyou should certainly invest the time and effort in getting one. Ongoing training, certifications, and a college degree are all pretty darn good things to have. I don't see any "cheap" fresh-out-of-college labor, I see guys graduating with a bachelor's degree and getting multiple offers in the 50 - 60K range from major companies.

You seem to neglect to point out in your replies that most of the unemployed are from companies that are pretty much heading down the tubes. The union could do nothing to prevent that, maybe only aggravate it.
Furthermore, lots of those positions had ridiculous salaries (as well as options) far in excess of the work being done which contributed to the demise of the companies as well.

CatMommy,

Even with the US economy on a downturn, IT spending is on the increase over last year (just not in the same areas). Check some of the industry journals or analysts.

There are still over 50,000 IT positions that are unfilled in the USalone. My company struggles to find talented people who are talented DBA?s, System Admins, Network Admins and Web folks of all types. The consulting team I?m a member of, over 20 people, has been at 108% utilization for 2 quarters. I receive calls from several recruiters every week. I?ve had three opportunities to change jobs, i.e. serious offers, in the last two months.

IT is hot, Hot, HOT. To be in the center of the market you have to be looking ahead and tooling your skills to the coming market.

Last year ERP was out, Guess what this year its back in because all the pretty web front ends in the world won?t pick pack and ship and tie into inventory control and run MRP or MES or do CRM or DW. (If these acronyms are mystic babble then you need to spend more time out researching the market.

I admit I have the advantage of being a consultant so I must keep up on the market. In industry I did the same thing, I watched trends, I clipped articles, I help steer my IT management team from below with white papers, research and putting forward well founded. Surprisingly I got to play big parts in those projects, I got to receive additional training and I advanced my skills and career.

Any IT person who thinks he needs a union needs to find a different company to work for. If he can't do that, maybe he just isn't very good at his job....

Have you looked at the market lately for IT professionals? It's no longer a worker's market, take a look around. IT pro salaries are dropping, people are still being laid off and those people who find themselves without a job are having a very difficult time finding new employment even when they have skills that should be marketable.

It's not the same world in IT that it was a few months ago, I think that you should talk to some of your peers and look around a few sites to see what the market is currently like before time passes you by. (mind you, in IT time that doesn't take very long!)

I was in a union shop in the telecommunications industry for a while and I found that the unions really didnt care much about the members, only keeping their dues comming in. In the long run unions always cave in to management.
If there is an IT union they really need to be prepared to right the wrongs done to employee's by the company and management.

In the grain industry for 10 years in the union and regretted it. No help from the local union in a strike that netted .50 cents/hour after being out of work for 3 months. Loco union leaders always gave in.

First of all Unions are not an organization that gets you more money, better working conditions, or more benifits. Unions are a group of united workers aiming for a socialistic approach in the workplace. In todays workplace regardless of what industry it is, a union can only accomplish higher wages and better working conditions if the union members (employees) agree to fight together in unity. Therefore those that are higher skilled, more efficient employees that are more valuable to the employer are key to the success of the union. This equation boils down to the lesser skilled, less efficient employees making equal wages with more sought after employees. Todays labor laws allow for individuals to protect themselves, not like the industrial era where there where no labor laws. It is true that the unions are largely responsible for these labor laws today, but that responsiblilty came from workers not overpaid organizers or Union officials that sell us a "right to work" line for the payment of union dues to go into their pockets and the pockets of politicians that they sleep with. If you are approached by a union you better think twice. Your money would be better spent educating yourself and increasing your effectiveness in the industry rather that giving it to some promise of the delusions of grandure that you can sit back a reap the profit. If you can be replaced easily then you should increase your skill level and the skill level of your position. It's when your employer can't replace you that your worth more to them.

People who would prefer to be in a union are the same people who would rather buy a Saturn. They are willing to pay more for a mediocre product so they don't have to deal with the effort involved to obtaining what they really want.

I was also ina union, non IT related, and it was great for people who just wanted a job and protection from the world but horrible for those who wanted a career and were willing to accept the challenges they face.

An IT Guild may be the answer for all of us to integrate our collective knowledge bases and truly begin to make IT more professional and more integrated skills wise.

I'd join a guild but not a union..... Besides the corruption and misdirection the government creates for everyone thats just what we don't need is more of the same in joining a union.

Where do we sign up?

This body could be based upon existing bodies such as IEEE computer society and other computer societies. The first problem it should address is the artificial labour shortage caused by not hiring older more experienced staff. This is done because experince is worth more.

For years, the IEEE has been plagued with politics. In addition, IT IS and Development engineers are tied to their work. They tend to be a-political and will not support a politically-oriented organization (or guild) any more than they'll support a labor union.
What this really says is that any strength that a potential union, guild, or other organization will have in numbers will be undermined by those that are driving by their work, not their bosses. Employers like Microsoft know this and take advantage of the situation.
On the other end of the scale, organizations like the IEEE are not independent groups. They receive a lot of support from the business community. That spells disaster for any attempt to bite the hand that feeds it.

The Association of Computing Machinery is supposed to be the "first society in computing" 80,000 members worldwide but I don't think they go far enough in actually helping mentor anyone. I think a recognized guild could be good. It would have to unselfish and that is hard for any organization to do today if it is to survive.

Is the job market perfect? NO

Do the slackers and technically defficient people get to keep their jobs in IT? NOT USUALLY

Do the good worker get canned for arbritary reasons? YES

Are some workers underpaid? SURE

Is there a solution? DEFINITELY

Let's look at the existing possibilities:

UNIONS
After reading all 30 comments, I believe we all agree that unions equal medocrity and tend to stiffle innovation and ambition.

Most unions are bloated money hungry organizations. But not all unions are bad. I did belong to one professional union and I was happy with their representation because they limited their scope to correcting unfair labor practices or injustices.

GUILDS
A guild has some barganing power (basically they blacklist employers who don't meet minimum standards set forth by the guild) and can offer mentoring programs, etc. The possibility for corruption still exists. But, Guilds traditionaly permote excellance without affecting pay scales.

ASSOCIATIONS
Most associations create PACS (political action committees) and work to change the laws that hamper their members from earning a reasonable living. Most are self regulating and that is where they have problems. Most associations (such as the AMA)are reluctant to censor, dimiss or recommend legal action for one of their members.

Unions have become a cancer and that cancer needs to be removed at any cost. Unions promote problems to justify their existence. Unions do not and have never added any value.

Unions demand that all workers stay, even slackers. Job security?If the company has no money, what is job security? It would be great if Pets.com had become a union shop. No one could be terminated. Great, the company runs out of cash and is unable to pay you. But the good news, you still have your job.

I don?t understand why people who joined the dot com world are upset that they lost their job. Please, they knew what they were getting into and these same people would have been laughing all the way to the bank if the dot com would have been successful. These people are total hypocrites.

Why should two people be paid the same amount (DWL)? The only people who would support this are the slackers. If you push yourself to get ahead and do more then you should be paid more.

Lastly, if you are not happy with the company, FIND A NEW JOB. And stop wining.

Absolutely, I agree with you whole heartedly. Unions are for those not willing to pull their own weight, and saleries should be (and for the most part are) based on the qualifications, ability, and willingness to do the job.

>Absolutely, I agree with you whole
>heartedly. Unions are for those not willing
>to pull their own weight, and saleries
>should be (and for the most part are)
>based on the qualifications, ability, and
>willingness to do the job.

Dream on! While *some* people may have utopian jobs where the people with the skills get ahead, the more realistic scenario is one of politics and favortism.

If you are in a job with a union, and there are people not working, but still getting paid, complain to the union! As a member, you *are* the union.

The bottom line is that in many situations, you need the power of a union. You absolutely no power when you are on your own.

Chris.

Can you not see the problem with your comments? 100% of unions are full of Politics and Favouritism.
I also think you should "Dream on!" what happens to people who actually do complain about a co-worker to a union? backs get turned on them and theyare ostracised as a "DOG" or what ever is the "In" word for those who put in their co-worker to whoever be it the union or the employer.

Anyhow Unions are losing their "power", for instance new laws in this country (Australia) are forcing unionsout of negotations and the worker is being empowered to negotiate their own contracts.

Unions were a necessary evil in the Industrial age and may still be needed within the Blue Collar Industry and those who are working in "unskilled" jobs withinthe white collar industry, however do we as professionals in the 21 Century really need them... I think not.

By the way I am an Ex Union Member.

Yes, there probably are a few utopian jobs, just as there may be a few utopian unions. Unfortunately, we have to choose based on the potential "negatives" that each option brings to the table. Considering that such things as the E.E.O.C. and StateLabor Laws exist, I'll take my chances WITHOUT the union for now.

So unions are without politics and favoritism? I think not!!

As a former member of one union and having worked in union shops for 25 years, the only people who benefit from unions are the officers and the loudmouths who constantly live in a bubble thinking that the company owes them job security - JOB SECURITY IS A MYTH.

A person needs to be flexible, up to date on the latest technology and most of all up, to date with their resumes and job hunting skills.

I have a brother-in-law who belonged to a union. The union is one big fat bed of politics, worse than the employers. You don't get ahead in a union by your skills either.

I have not found a circumstance where I couldn't literaly walk off the job and have another position somewhere within a few days. The "power" of any union is totally useless, since I control my destiny more than any employer.

Brian

Have faith in your own abilities and resourcefulness. You are responsible for yourself and your family. Take control. Switch jobs or go to school to advance your skills. Don't wallow in self pitty about how no one is taking care of you. Screw them. You can do it!

I disagree, in the tech world, skills are what everyone looks at. Is it me or are more companies testing practical skills before the hire ? Skills and continual training count the most. The problem lies in that most bank on their current skills to keep them going in tomorrow's world. Won't happen because of the dynamic nature of IT. Unions hurt people, by taking their trust in themselves and their skills and placing them in an organization that appears to provide padding for one's lack of drive. The power rests in oneself.

I can see a parallel between asking whether unions have a role in IT and asking whether lawyers are needed in the world at all.

- Would the threat or the possibility of litigation make you feel you had any less freedom? (Compare this with the assertations that unions stifle creativity, prevent people from moving around and restrict salaries).
- Even though there is legislation in place to protect your rights, does this mean that everyone respects and is aware of these rights? (Compare this with the comments that there is legislation in place to protect workers and prevent employers taking advantage of them)
- If someone breaks the law should they get away with it? (Compare this with an employer taking advantage of a worker)
- If someone treats you unjustly, should you just accept it or do you run away and hope things are better at your next destination? (Compare this with the inference that it is an employer's right to treat their workers in any way they deem appropriate, aslong as the worker puts up with it, and the suggestion that if the worker is dissatisfied with the situation, they should leave, rather than try to improve things).

If you believe that lawyers or solicitors are not needed in today's world becauseno-one breaks the law, everyone respects the rights of other human beings, when someone takes advantage of you, you should turn the other cheek and if you don't like how you are being treated then simply walk away ... then it is quite possible that you'd also believe that unions do not have a place in IT. Of course the bed of roses wouldn't ever contain a thorn.

Who are you trying to kid?

A union is what the employees make it. If your union doesn't work for you, if it supports mediocrity, it's because you and your colleagues have abandoned it to the mediocre, and it's the union you deserve.

Everyone is a GDI until painted into a corner and he or she gets the the short end of the stick. Elaborating on what Lorraine states, what power does any one person have to force management to obey fair labor practice laws? Disabilities legislation? civil rights laws? Age discriminationlaws? corporate policies? Employment contracts? The answer: almost none. How about to counter corporate lobbying to limit the meager rights the individual does have? Answer: even less. The fact is, despite the nominal right of the individual toenforce any of these, his or her power to do so is miniscule compared to the power of most employers to resist. Management is already organized. You are not. Good unions simply force management to follow the rules.

Favoritism, office politics, and nepotism (often hidden) are anathema to morale and productivity. In most compnies, anyone who thinks people are rewarded and promoted based upon what they know and how well they perform is named Dorothy and thinks she is still in Kansas. Simplymoving on usually means moving to a place where the same problems are only supplanted by others, or they simply haven't come around yet. If one is lucky enough to find a new organization with decent management, that is likely a temporary situation, that management typically will change and have the new guard see those previously recognized as top perfomers to be mediocre or worse. Management typically has disdain for existing staff and is infatuated with its own new hires. It doesn't sweep clean, it sweeps under the rug. Look around. The inept are rewarded despite the problems they ignore, pass on, or cause, only because they are tight with management.

I think a strucutured form of professional regulatory bodies, similar to those governing the medical profession, would be beneficial to everyone involved in the IT world.
Lawyers and doctors go way back in making their respective professions more efficient, beter regulated and ...better paid.
It's extremely difficult to get it done but it sure beats both unions and guilds.

Unions were labor's response to the excesses of industry, and were badly needed at times in history. Are unions needed in today's IT field? Not by anybody worth hiring and retaining....

...remember that it was a union that caused paid vacations to be an accepted feature of the workplace. Next time you take a weekend off, remember that the 40 hour work week came from unions as well. Ditto health benefits, childcare, and a host of other things.

For you to say that unions "do not have and never had any value" tells me that you have no understanding of history. Most of the "perks" and "rights" that we take for granted came from union activity.

Are there many things wrong with many unions? You bet! Are there corrupt union organizers and agents out there? You bet! Are there people who take advantage of the protections that unions give to be "retired on the job?" You bet! However, in the overall scheme of things, unions perform a very valuable service. They set the floor for acceptable behavior and compensation. I'm aware of at least one very large company where the MANAGERS' compensation (pay and benefits) is determined by adding a percentage to what the union members get. All those managers who are forever cursing the "damned union" are benefiting from the collective bargaining process that they are so quick to condemn.

I'm a long-term IS person and a union member. I'm one of the lucky ones, a person who enjoys his job, and continually gets offers to move, so I'm not one of the "slackers" who have been lambasted in this thread. My union is FAR from perfect, but it does protect me and others from the politics and capricious behavior of management. I've been on both sides during my IS career--union member and non-union member. I'll take the union every time.

The ideal guild would have a combination of branchs dedicated to each of these things: Jobs/ Rights/ Mentoring/ Political power/ and Labs to give accurate info on various software and hardware. After all we have to work with it.

With officials elected with limited terms and other laws to ensure a clean leadership. Unlike the bloated corrupt semi-police state government we now enjoy!

If a majority of IT people joined together we would enjoy far more politcal power and benefits than any other group in history.

CREATING A NEW ENTITY
In the United States, what we need is an organization that promotes excellence by defining levels of knowledge attainment (something like the apprentice, journeyman, master designations used in guilds but applicable to the IT field. It should also provide an opportunity (not necessarily free but hopefully discounted) for members to upgrade existing skills. To be truly effective the organization would also need to establish a PAC to influence labor laws and other government regulations that impact our field. (Laws that make the company we work for less profitable, negatively effect us)

What we don't want is job security that is not tied to performance. Existing labor laws should provide sufficient protection against unfair labor practices in most states. Where the existing don't provide sufficient protection, the organization's PAC should work to change those laws.

EXAMPLE
Can an organization of this type work? Yes, there are several organizations of this type around the country. I belong to one of them.

A.B.A.T.E is an organization for motorcyclists. It provides rider education, social activities, community service opportunities such as toy runs for needy children, technical clinics, etc. They also has a PAC to make sure no laws are passed abolishing or unreasonably limiting motorcycle use. A few years ago, A.B.A.T.E stopped several condominium associations in one state from banning their members from owning motorcycles.

But there are still some problems. The major problem is finding people with enough free time to get the organization started and keep it running. A.B.A.T.E does have some paid workers but tries to keep them to a minimum preferring to use volunteer labor. Also, it's difficult to get people to join and remain members after the worst problems are solved. Maintaining membership is why they have social and community service activities.

I believe w

I guess that you would want us all to roll up player character sheets as well! Your concept is an anachronism.