Discussion on:

IT pros take a cautious approach to unions

Although I wouldn't join one, there are several unions, but there might not be that many in the USA.
Please remember that there are other countries out there.

This applies to most americans in general

A guild would be a looser version of a union but may allow for a more collective voice, especially for those who live in areas where IT salaries are depressed. Guild memberships are optional and would allow members to negotiate their own salaries much like the Actors Guild or the guilds of the old days. A guild would also allow for levels such as journeyman and apprentice. Entry level IT workers could be apprenticed and mentored by journeymen. The advantage here would be a way for them to get their foot in the door and get their careers started much faster than if they had to follow more tradtional routes. Just a thought.

Having been forced to work as a union member in a closed shop, it was my experience that unions are not appropriate for data processing professionals. Perhaps, jobs such as computer operators are more suited to union membership when appropriate. Always remember that when people are treated in a proper manner there is no need for a union.

I belonged to a union for 20 years in a jet engine remanufacturing plant. From my experience, (and I don't mean to step on anyones toes), the union did a great job of keeping people employed who didn't want to work, and the people who actually caredabout their jobs had to carry their load. Also, your work performance didn't matter because you still got paid as much as the guy next you who twiddled his thumbs all day. I'm not saying that they are all like this, but I feel if you are a good worker, you don't need a union to take up for you. So I'm praying really hard that I don't have to join another union. Once again, I didn't mean to step on anyones toes, that's just my opinion.

While I understand your issue with deadbeats, who's fault is it? The last time I checked, the company has the right to manage or mis-manage, whatever the case maybe. As a union member I've seen plenty of bad employees get the boot without union involvement. It's when an employee receives discipline without proper cause that a union should react. Remember,without a union it's employment at will which simply means an employee can get fired just because, not just cause!!

If the only reason to have a union is to insure that employees don't get fired without cause, then we don't have enough reasons to want a union. Don't forget that many states already have labor laws, and some form of the E.E.O.C., that give employees somewhere to go to fight against wrongful termination. The potential "positives" of a union still don't outweight the potential "negatives" that they present.

As an IT professional AND a union shop steward, I can tell you that those laws are not uniform and, in many states, are written for management interests. I have spent a lot of my time defending talented people who were being pushed out once their work was integrated into the company. The laws in my state (Georgia) provide little relief for the workers.

But that's not the only thing that unions do... Overtime compensation, breaks and lunch periods, leave time, training, health benefits, etc.all come from unions working behind the scenes to get the laws passed. My brother used to mock my union involvement until he found out that his workplace wasn't so perfect after all and the laws supported the management since there was no contract in place to protect the workers.

Just look at the daily list of tech lay-offs. With contracts and a union to do the hard work for them, maybe some of those people wouldn't be holding signs saying "Will Code for IPOs." Talent and drive are all very well, but stock options aren't a stable replacement for a secure job.

I was laid off from AT&T with 17 days to go to collect my pension. If it weren't for the UNION (CWA) I would be out on the streets after all those years with no pension till I was 65.

In about 25 yrs of working experience, I can't remember anyone being fired just because, except for cases where the company had to eliminate a position.
I did see, in 9 years in a union company, the laziest people manage to keep jobs simply becauseit was nearly impossible to fire them due to the union. Once they cleared the first 6 months, they pretty much could retire from the company unless they committed a felony or made noise against the union. It was amazing how well they could work for six months.
What was more frightening was that the union didn't give a damn about the employees when it came to contract time. All they were concerned with was the perpetuation of the union. One example was that the union had a 45% unemployment rate and it let those unemployed vote on strike votes. Another one was the Union president turning down a lucrative settlement offer (better than they were asking for) from the company because it would damage the union??
I'd also be real careful aboutcategories of tech jobs. Think all the html coders could jump in on a complex C++ or VB project? Most unions use last in, first out.

Don't forget - a union is only as good as its members.

I am also a former union member. I used to think that the union was pretty good, until I was elected shop steward.
Then I learned that a union is like most other organizations. It's number one concern is what is good for it's self.
As long as benefiting the workers will help the union, the union will help workers.
But if the union will benefit more by ignoring worker's needs then the workers get the shaft.

Oh brother! If you are stupid enough to stay at a job, that pays too little, makes you work endless hours, and gives you no say over any aspect of your job, then you deserve all of the above. People, this is the most advanced, entrepreneurial, and personal choice driven country in the world! We have more choices out there than we have time for in our lives. So to say that you do not have any choice, must stay at your current job that sucks, the IT industry is supposed to go through a major change to create a saftey blanket for you, and we are all going to ban together to help you overlook your lack of motivation, self confidence, and willingness to make a change for the better in your life is rediculous! This entire thought process and discussion is a WASTE OF PIXELS ON YOUR MONITOR! Lets let people take care of their own shortcummings and get back to some REAL IT issues! Lack of jobs and choices in this industry doesn't exist!

I agree, the company is responsible for hiring quality employess. However, poor performance doesn't always show up immediately upon hiring. Unions have no place in our business. I don't need Pencil-pushing admins dipping in to my paycheck and hassling my company. In my fairly vast experience if you are a professional, that is, well trained and a hard worker, you will have people treat you like a king. There are so many hacks in our line of work, that more than likely customers have been burned by one at one time or another. I believe that Labor Unions have their place, just not in IS. We already get great salaries and usually have clean, safe working environments. If you get fired "just because" either you don't understand why, or you have done something wrong. If neither apply, then there are fundamental problems with the organization and who wants that? Aren't union slogans great? :>

No Union worth is salt supports lazy people.
Poor Managers allow this to happen.The idea of a Union is to support and protect workers of sweat shop employers,but it also has a responsibility to to the business to ensure that it remains in profit and in so doing secures stable and long term employment for all.

I whole heartedly agree with bmajors. In a previous life I was a local officer in a large union. I found 90% of the unions efforts were to protect 5% of the workers, most of whom deserved whatever peril they were in.
Like most things in life, Oneof the primary focuses of the union was recruitment. Follow the money. Do not sacrifice your individuality for a union.

While I was not a Union Member in a closed shop I have dealt with many Unions in the Construction Industry. My thoughts on the union is that they are only as strong as the people that you elect to represent you. In my case with the Union I was in the BA (Business Agent)was more worried about lineing his pockets then represting the membership. That in my opion is the most important thing to watch out for. Other then that I do in someways favor unions as the do have good Medical, Dental, and other benifits that are to your advantage. Such as helping the people that have just got out of school and can't find a job as is my case. I resently recieved an Interactive Multimedia AAS Degree in June of 2000 and still have not been able to find a jobin the field. It seems that if you don't have a BA or MA that you can't get a job any where in the industry. It seems to me that the only job that you can find with an AAS degree is a job at a fast food joint, which is not what I spent 30,000 going to school to get!

I have two sons who both grew up playing around with the family computer and both dropped out of school after two years of college. One quit because he wasn't sure what he wanted to study, the other because he took one computer system design course and decided he knew as much as the instructor. Both got jobs in the IT field immediately. For one it was a part time job at the university that grew into a full time system administrator job in less than a year with excellent pay. The other got a jobsetting up systems/networks as well as on site troubleshooting/repair. Today he has a very high paying job in the customer support field at SGI. Has the IT job market changed that much since 1995?

Nowadays, it's not enough to have the talent. Somewhere, someone decreed that all IT pros should have degrees in something not always appropiate to their jobs. So, in the cuthroat world of ever-diminishing IT opportunities, talent and seniority don't count. Your sons could be out the door tomorrow if their companies decide to hire cheaper fresh-out-of-college labor. Without some sort of official protection, there is not much they could do about it...

Where is "the cuthroat world of ever-diminishing IT opportunities"? I can't find the time for all the work flying around. If talent doesn't count, the job isn't very good or important. Having a degree is a definite plus, and if you don't have oneyou should certainly invest the time and effort in getting one. Ongoing training, certifications, and a college degree are all pretty darn good things to have. I don't see any "cheap" fresh-out-of-college labor, I see guys graduating with a bachelor's degree and getting multiple offers in the 50 - 60K range from major companies.

You seem to neglect to point out in your replies that most of the unemployed are from companies that are pretty much heading down the tubes. The union could do nothing to prevent that, maybe only aggravate it.
Furthermore, lots of those positions had ridiculous salaries (as well as options) far in excess of the work being done which contributed to the demise of the companies as well.

CatMommy,

Even with the US economy on a downturn, IT spending is on the increase over last year (just not in the same areas). Check some of the industry journals or analysts.

There are still over 50,000 IT positions that are unfilled in the USalone. My company struggles to find talented people who are talented DBA?s, System Admins, Network Admins and Web folks of all types. The consulting team I?m a member of, over 20 people, has been at 108% utilization for 2 quarters. I receive calls from several recruiters every week. I?ve had three opportunities to change jobs, i.e. serious offers, in the last two months.

IT is hot, Hot, HOT. To be in the center of the market you have to be looking ahead and tooling your skills to the coming market.

Last year ERP was out, Guess what this year its back in because all the pretty web front ends in the world won?t pick pack and ship and tie into inventory control and run MRP or MES or do CRM or DW. (If these acronyms are mystic babble then you need to spend more time out researching the market.

I admit I have the advantage of being a consultant so I must keep up on the market. In industry I did the same thing, I watched trends, I clipped articles, I help steer my IT management team from below with white papers, research and putting forward well founded. Surprisingly I got to play big parts in those projects, I got to receive additional training and I advanced my skills and career.

Any IT person who thinks he needs a union needs to find a different company to work for. If he can't do that, maybe he just isn't very good at his job....

Have you looked at the market lately for IT professionals? It's no longer a worker's market, take a look around. IT pro salaries are dropping, people are still being laid off and those people who find themselves without a job are having a very difficult time finding new employment even when they have skills that should be marketable.

It's not the same world in IT that it was a few months ago, I think that you should talk to some of your peers and look around a few sites to see what the market is currently like before time passes you by. (mind you, in IT time that doesn't take very long!)

I was in a union shop in the telecommunications industry for a while and I found that the unions really didnt care much about the members, only keeping their dues comming in. In the long run unions always cave in to management.
If there is an IT union they really need to be prepared to right the wrongs done to employee's by the company and management.

In the grain industry for 10 years in the union and regretted it. No help from the local union in a strike that netted .50 cents/hour after being out of work for 3 months. Loco union leaders always gave in.

First of all Unions are not an organization that gets you more money, better working conditions, or more benifits. Unions are a group of united workers aiming for a socialistic approach in the workplace. In todays workplace regardless of what industry it is, a union can only accomplish higher wages and better working conditions if the union members (employees) agree to fight together in unity. Therefore those that are higher skilled, more efficient employees that are more valuable to the employer are key to the success of the union. This equation boils down to the lesser skilled, less efficient employees making equal wages with more sought after employees. Todays labor laws allow for individuals to protect themselves, not like the industrial era where there where no labor laws. It is true that the unions are largely responsible for these labor laws today, but that responsiblilty came from workers not overpaid organizers or Union officials that sell us a "right to work" line for the payment of union dues to go into their pockets and the pockets of politicians that they sleep with. If you are approached by a union you better think twice. Your money would be better spent educating yourself and increasing your effectiveness in the industry rather that giving it to some promise of the delusions of grandure that you can sit back a reap the profit. If you can be replaced easily then you should increase your skill level and the skill level of your position. It's when your employer can't replace you that your worth more to them.

People who would prefer to be in a union are the same people who would rather buy a Saturn. They are willing to pay more for a mediocre product so they don't have to deal with the effort involved to obtaining what they really want.

I was also ina union, non IT related, and it was great for people who just wanted a job and protection from the world but horrible for those who wanted a career and were willing to accept the challenges they face.

An IT Guild may be the answer for all of us to integrate our collective knowledge bases and truly begin to make IT more professional and more integrated skills wise.

I'd join a guild but not a union..... Besides the corruption and misdirection the government creates for everyone thats just what we don't need is more of the same in joining a union.

Where do we sign up?

This body could be based upon existing bodies such as IEEE computer society and other computer societies. The first problem it should address is the artificial labour shortage caused by not hiring older more experienced staff. This is done because experince is worth more.

For years, the IEEE has been plagued with politics. In addition, IT IS and Development engineers are tied to their work. They tend to be a-political and will not support a politically-oriented organization (or guild) any more than they'll support a labor union.
What this really says is that any strength that a potential union, guild, or other organization will have in numbers will be undermined by those that are driving by their work, not their bosses. Employers like Microsoft know this and take advantage of the situation.
On the other end of the scale, organizations like the IEEE are not independent groups. They receive a lot of support from the business community. That spells disaster for any attempt to bite the hand that feeds it.

The Association of Computing Machinery is supposed to be the "first society in computing" 80,000 members worldwide but I don't think they go far enough in actually helping mentor anyone. I think a recognized guild could be good. It would have to unselfish and that is hard for any organization to do today if it is to survive.

Is the job market perfect? NO

Do the slackers and technically defficient people get to keep their jobs in IT? NOT USUALLY

Do the good worker get canned for arbritary reasons? YES

Are some workers underpaid? SURE

Is there a solution? DEFINITELY

Let's look at the existing possibilities:

UNIONS
After reading all 30 comments, I believe we all agree that unions equal medocrity and tend to stiffle innovation and ambition.

Most unions are bloated money hungry organizations. But not all unions are bad. I did belong to one professional union and I was happy with their representation because they limited their scope to correcting unfair labor practices or injustices.

GUILDS
A guild has some barganing power (basically they blacklist employers who don't meet minimum standards set forth by the guild) and can offer mentoring programs, etc. The possibility for corruption still exists. But, Guilds traditionaly permote excellance without affecting pay scales.

ASSOCIATIONS
Most associations create PACS (political action committees) and work to change the laws that hamper their members from earning a reasonable living. Most are self regulating and that is where they have problems. Most associations (such as the AMA)are reluctant to censor, dimiss or recommend legal action for one of their members.

Unions have become a cancer and that cancer needs to be removed at any cost. Unions promote problems to justify their existence. Unions do not and have never added any value.

Unions demand that all workers stay, even slackers. Job security?If the company has no money, what is job security? It would be great if Pets.com had become a union shop. No one could be terminated. Great, the company runs out of cash and is unable to pay you. But the good news, you still have your job.

I don?t understand why people who joined the dot com world are upset that they lost their job. Please, they knew what they were getting into and these same people would have been laughing all the way to the bank if the dot com would have been successful. These people are total hypocrites.

Why should two people be paid the same amount (DWL)? The only people who would support this are the slackers. If you push yourself to get ahead and do more then you should be paid more.

Lastly, if you are not happy with the company, FIND A NEW JOB. And stop wining.

Absolutely, I agree with you whole heartedly. Unions are for those not willing to pull their own weight, and saleries should be (and for the most part are) based on the qualifications, ability, and willingness to do the job.

>Absolutely, I agree with you whole
>heartedly. Unions are for those not willing
>to pull their own weight, and saleries
>should be (and for the most part are)
>based on the qualifications, ability, and
>willingness to do the job.

Dream on! While *some* people may have utopian jobs where the people with the skills get ahead, the more realistic scenario is one of politics and favortism.

If you are in a job with a union, and there are people not working, but still getting paid, complain to the union! As a member, you *are* the union.

The bottom line is that in many situations, you need the power of a union. You absolutely no power when you are on your own.

Chris.

Can you not see the problem with your comments? 100% of unions are full of Politics and Favouritism.
I also think you should "Dream on!" what happens to people who actually do complain about a co-worker to a union? backs get turned on them and theyare ostracised as a "DOG" or what ever is the "In" word for those who put in their co-worker to whoever be it the union or the employer.

Anyhow Unions are losing their "power", for instance new laws in this country (Australia) are forcing unionsout of negotations and the worker is being empowered to negotiate their own contracts.

Unions were a necessary evil in the Industrial age and may still be needed within the Blue Collar Industry and those who are working in "unskilled" jobs withinthe white collar industry, however do we as professionals in the 21 Century really need them... I think not.

By the way I am an Ex Union Member.

Yes, there probably are a few utopian jobs, just as there may be a few utopian unions. Unfortunately, we have to choose based on the potential "negatives" that each option brings to the table. Considering that such things as the E.E.O.C. and StateLabor Laws exist, I'll take my chances WITHOUT the union for now.

So unions are without politics and favoritism? I think not!!

As a former member of one union and having worked in union shops for 25 years, the only people who benefit from unions are the officers and the loudmouths who constantly live in a bubble thinking that the company owes them job security - JOB SECURITY IS A MYTH.

A person needs to be flexible, up to date on the latest technology and most of all up, to date with their resumes and job hunting skills.

I have a brother-in-law who belonged to a union. The union is one big fat bed of politics, worse than the employers. You don't get ahead in a union by your skills either.

I have not found a circumstance where I couldn't literaly walk off the job and have another position somewhere within a few days. The "power" of any union is totally useless, since I control my destiny more than any employer.

Brian

Have faith in your own abilities and resourcefulness. You are responsible for yourself and your family. Take control. Switch jobs or go to school to advance your skills. Don't wallow in self pitty about how no one is taking care of you. Screw them. You can do it!

I disagree, in the tech world, skills are what everyone looks at. Is it me or are more companies testing practical skills before the hire ? Skills and continual training count the most. The problem lies in that most bank on their current skills to keep them going in tomorrow's world. Won't happen because of the dynamic nature of IT. Unions hurt people, by taking their trust in themselves and their skills and placing them in an organization that appears to provide padding for one's lack of drive. The power rests in oneself.

I can see a parallel between asking whether unions have a role in IT and asking whether lawyers are needed in the world at all.

- Would the threat or the possibility of litigation make you feel you had any less freedom? (Compare this with the assertations that unions stifle creativity, prevent people from moving around and restrict salaries).
- Even though there is legislation in place to protect your rights, does this mean that everyone respects and is aware of these rights? (Compare this with the comments that there is legislation in place to protect workers and prevent employers taking advantage of them)
- If someone breaks the law should they get away with it? (Compare this with an employer taking advantage of a worker)
- If someone treats you unjustly, should you just accept it or do you run away and hope things are better at your next destination? (Compare this with the inference that it is an employer's right to treat their workers in any way they deem appropriate, aslong as the worker puts up with it, and the suggestion that if the worker is dissatisfied with the situation, they should leave, rather than try to improve things).

If you believe that lawyers or solicitors are not needed in today's world becauseno-one breaks the law, everyone respects the rights of other human beings, when someone takes advantage of you, you should turn the other cheek and if you don't like how you are being treated then simply walk away ... then it is quite possible that you'd also believe that unions do not have a place in IT. Of course the bed of roses wouldn't ever contain a thorn.

Who are you trying to kid?

A union is what the employees make it. If your union doesn't work for you, if it supports mediocrity, it's because you and your colleagues have abandoned it to the mediocre, and it's the union you deserve.

Everyone is a GDI until painted into a corner and he or she gets the the short end of the stick. Elaborating on what Lorraine states, what power does any one person have to force management to obey fair labor practice laws? Disabilities legislation? civil rights laws? Age discriminationlaws? corporate policies? Employment contracts? The answer: almost none. How about to counter corporate lobbying to limit the meager rights the individual does have? Answer: even less. The fact is, despite the nominal right of the individual toenforce any of these, his or her power to do so is miniscule compared to the power of most employers to resist. Management is already organized. You are not. Good unions simply force management to follow the rules.

Favoritism, office politics, and nepotism (often hidden) are anathema to morale and productivity. In most compnies, anyone who thinks people are rewarded and promoted based upon what they know and how well they perform is named Dorothy and thinks she is still in Kansas. Simplymoving on usually means moving to a place where the same problems are only supplanted by others, or they simply haven't come around yet. If one is lucky enough to find a new organization with decent management, that is likely a temporary situation, that management typically will change and have the new guard see those previously recognized as top perfomers to be mediocre or worse. Management typically has disdain for existing staff and is infatuated with its own new hires. It doesn't sweep clean, it sweeps under the rug. Look around. The inept are rewarded despite the problems they ignore, pass on, or cause, only because they are tight with management.

I think a strucutured form of professional regulatory bodies, similar to those governing the medical profession, would be beneficial to everyone involved in the IT world.
Lawyers and doctors go way back in making their respective professions more efficient, beter regulated and ...better paid.
It's extremely difficult to get it done but it sure beats both unions and guilds.

Unions were labor's response to the excesses of industry, and were badly needed at times in history. Are unions needed in today's IT field? Not by anybody worth hiring and retaining....

...remember that it was a union that caused paid vacations to be an accepted feature of the workplace. Next time you take a weekend off, remember that the 40 hour work week came from unions as well. Ditto health benefits, childcare, and a host of other things.

For you to say that unions "do not have and never had any value" tells me that you have no understanding of history. Most of the "perks" and "rights" that we take for granted came from union activity.

Are there many things wrong with many unions? You bet! Are there corrupt union organizers and agents out there? You bet! Are there people who take advantage of the protections that unions give to be "retired on the job?" You bet! However, in the overall scheme of things, unions perform a very valuable service. They set the floor for acceptable behavior and compensation. I'm aware of at least one very large company where the MANAGERS' compensation (pay and benefits) is determined by adding a percentage to what the union members get. All those managers who are forever cursing the "damned union" are benefiting from the collective bargaining process that they are so quick to condemn.

I'm a long-term IS person and a union member. I'm one of the lucky ones, a person who enjoys his job, and continually gets offers to move, so I'm not one of the "slackers" who have been lambasted in this thread. My union is FAR from perfect, but it does protect me and others from the politics and capricious behavior of management. I've been on both sides during my IS career--union member and non-union member. I'll take the union every time.

The ideal guild would have a combination of branchs dedicated to each of these things: Jobs/ Rights/ Mentoring/ Political power/ and Labs to give accurate info on various software and hardware. After all we have to work with it.

With officials elected with limited terms and other laws to ensure a clean leadership. Unlike the bloated corrupt semi-police state government we now enjoy!

If a majority of IT people joined together we would enjoy far more politcal power and benefits than any other group in history.

CREATING A NEW ENTITY
In the United States, what we need is an organization that promotes excellence by defining levels of knowledge attainment (something like the apprentice, journeyman, master designations used in guilds but applicable to the IT field. It should also provide an opportunity (not necessarily free but hopefully discounted) for members to upgrade existing skills. To be truly effective the organization would also need to establish a PAC to influence labor laws and other government regulations that impact our field. (Laws that make the company we work for less profitable, negatively effect us)

What we don't want is job security that is not tied to performance. Existing labor laws should provide sufficient protection against unfair labor practices in most states. Where the existing don't provide sufficient protection, the organization's PAC should work to change those laws.

EXAMPLE
Can an organization of this type work? Yes, there are several organizations of this type around the country. I belong to one of them.

A.B.A.T.E is an organization for motorcyclists. It provides rider education, social activities, community service opportunities such as toy runs for needy children, technical clinics, etc. They also has a PAC to make sure no laws are passed abolishing or unreasonably limiting motorcycle use. A few years ago, A.B.A.T.E stopped several condominium associations in one state from banning their members from owning motorcycles.

But there are still some problems. The major problem is finding people with enough free time to get the organization started and keep it running. A.B.A.T.E does have some paid workers but tries to keep them to a minimum preferring to use volunteer labor. Also, it's difficult to get people to join and remain members after the worst problems are solved. Maintaining membership is why they have social and community service activities.

I believe w

I guess that you would want us all to roll up player character sheets as well! Your concept is an anachronism.

Although you are correct in pointing out the ancient history of the guild concept, it's not merely a figment of the past. Many trades in today's world have resorted to guilds to form a sense of unity and collective power from teamwork and close association. The most visible example is the Actors' Guild, but others including songwriter guilds, contractors' guilds, artists, numismatists, businessleaders, gardeners, teachers, and even a handful of computer-related guilds do exist and function in today's world. One advantage of the guild idea is that it is a wonderful labor pool, providing a network through which employers and potential employees can find each other. This advantage alone makes the guild notion attractive in the IT industry, especially if takes into account the belt-tightening that seems to be happening across the US, and how that may make jobs a little harder to find, even for the IT industry. But guilds also provide a source of support, advice, and assistance for fellow members as well as a common identity and a way to keep abreast of their field. The combination of these aspects and the already- mentioned advantages together in one entity does have some very appealing possibilities. I for one would definitely be in favor of a guild-like organization that offered these things.

I fully agree with your assessment. Even SF novelists like Frank Herbert saw guilds in our future. They are most useful in highly creative fields, such as the arts. Software and Hardware development are as much an art as a science, especially as thescience advances.
Guilds can be more effective than unions when working with an entire industry (such as the entertainment industry).
On the other hand, guilds can force industries to unite, simply to bargain at that level and a guild member either must leave the guild to explore other career paths(the same problem exists within unions) or be willing to call their career choice their home for the rest of their life. Aside from that, the guild approach is a sensible one for the IT IS industry... and perhaps, it would not be a bad idea for more than one to exist, since the computer industry, like the entertainment industry, has many different aspects.

Yes, a guild would be an answer, but it must be more complex than the simple "master and apprentice" setup of medieval days. A guild must help businesses determine competency and match this level of proficiency with the needs of a company. Imagineif patients were able to override sound advice of a medical doctor to get inappropriate and/or dangerous medicines? This is the current situation we face when we are trying to convince businesses to hire us. Most people in smaller businesses that are hiring IT people don't have the best judgment as to what to look for to fill their needs. They require the use of recruiters or what some "guy on the golf course" tells them. A guild would be a one-stop place for businesses to find the right talent for the right price. Also, the idea of cross-mentoring would be a great advancement. For example, a Microsoft person and a Cisco person cross-mentoring each other would be a great win-win situation.

Our industry is too dynamic and requires too much flexibility for a traditional union.

However, I have found that my biggest frustration in this industry is how many paper certifications there are floating around out there. This is somewhat an overstatement, but the certification system demonstrates who is good at taking tests much more than it demonstrates actual real world skills. I have come across MCSE's and CNA's whose lack of basic skills and knowlege was appalling. I once knew a CNA who couldn't log into his system because his caps lock was on and couldn't figure this out for himself. I am not maknig this up. Conversely some of the most amazing IT people I have run accross had little in the way of Certification. Don't get me wrong, in the absence of anything better, certifications are OK.

But I think there could be something better. I would support a guild structure with an apprenticeship/
journeyman/ master structure. I can see drawbacks to this plan as well as some exceptionally talented youngsters out there might outstrip the skills of their master, but I think those individuals are rare. Overall, I think it would help to stabilize and professionalize our industry. There are more than a few people I have worked with over the years who would have benefitted immensely by working under such a system. IMO, professionalism is what we need more of.

I have mentioned the word "union" on many occasions here in North Carolina. I have
asked many individuals to direct me to union shops - very few have been able to identify a
single union shop in the state.

Employers in North Carolina use this fact to pay poverty level wages. This is particularly
true in entry level IT positions.

Unions do not necessarily stifle wage growth
or skill levels. Most encourage employers
to pay toward educational advancement of the
team. Advancement to a higher skill level and
compensation are based on management/union
guidelines but there are checks and balances
in the system to ensure only the most qualified succeed.

Re a guild vs. a union. Unions are based on
mentoring your team members, theskills of the team members creates the strength of the
union to work with management.

However, my disclaimer, every union is different and unions like everything else
have pros and cons...Some of the best companies I have encountered are those working to avoid having unions - they work
harder to recognize the needs of their employees.

In NC there is no concern re having a union
and the wages directly reflect this fact.

woftbo@hotmail.com

Rather than re-post please refer to my reply to Catmommy as I work in Charlotte NC.

I have 4 customers looking for a range of talent from AS/400 Admins to SAP Basis Admins in various states, however one customer in mid NC has been looking for people for over 6 months.

What a good idea! Many of the kids coming out of college these days are way heavy in the knowledge department and way light in the experience department. This type of set-up could give the journeyman an opportunity to "brush up" and the apprenticethe opportunity to benefit from experience, just like with doctors and interns.

This would be what we need, structured something like a credit union with a council of 2 per country. The ideal guild would help ensure decent pay hours for its members. Make trade agreements with the Majors Cisco, Nortel, HP etc., to acquire hardware for members to learn on rather since most jobs do not have any or good learning environments. And most techs can not afford most corporate hardware or software to train on a home.

Further, why headhunters or various sites to find jobs? A worldwide guild could build a database of jobs for members and the fees charged to firms could be used to build learning labs, credit union, operation help network, bookstore and various other benefits. Not to mention a class rating system that firms could use to find the right level of person they need. Which of course members can work on to elevate themselves and have a reference.

In unity there is power, we have great knowledge. But like the American Indians we are in complete disarray and powerless. And shall remain abused and with out voice til we do. Lets learn from history for a change and put it to our benefit.

Working for a company with a union (manufacturing) shop, I've seen how much stifling a union can do. However, because they have levels of experience, it really helps to determine the qualifications of applicants. More importantly, for someone likeme, who is the company computer (want-to-be) "geek", with no certifications, no company support, and little time to go the wrong way, such a guild would be very helpful.

"Freedom" to control your career...
Exactly how did you exercise YOUR "freedom" to CONTROL your career when the Congress of the US succumbed to soft and hard money contributions from YOUR EMPLOYERS to IMPORT 600,000 low-wage IT pros over the next 3years!!! How bright is your future now, bright IT gurus? Your "management" will arbitrarily "downscale" your job title for you, as they did mine, just as soon as you have to compete with the 600,000 IT slaves that will be imported in the next 3 years. Have a great background and experience? How will that stack up against your imported brother's PhD, paid for by his government, from US universities you cannot afford, and, or, are too distant to attend? Will your employer give you two months training and a few weeks patience so you can move into the latest tech area of your specialization, or will he hire the guru "from over there" that has already acquired the training and several months experience. Yes, there are communications difficulties, but do you think your employer gives a flying flip? S/He'd rather pay you for 4 days work to trace logic, find objects, synonyms, and other fun, interesting stuff than give you a measly 10 or 20 minutes now to document your work, or the changes implemented in the IT infrastructure you just completed. Does YOUR union have to be a mirror of the unions of industrial sweat shops, or do you suppose you might contribute some of your "bright intelligence" toward creating an organization suited to the needs of "knowledge workers?" If you are so self-sufficient that you don't want, or see the need for a union, WHY do you suffer the imposition of CC&Rs in your neighborhood, and city, county, regional, state and federal governments, their "regulations," and all the buffoons that run them? Have a nice day! And, a "bright" IT future!

YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD. SQUARLEY ON THE HEAD. All of the US born IT workers should form a coalition to stop the immigrants that are a greeing to slave wages.
I could go on and on... don't help them out. If they can't understand what is goingon don't tell them...

Yep all you say is correct. We IT "professionals" have it very good right now until the IT slave laborors make their impact on this industry.

I was just asking myself last week what other professions i could migrate to because of the possiblechanges being made in this one where salaries and working conditions could worsen and make it WAY less attractive to thise of us pulling in 150k a year or better.

We all need to understand that NOTHING stays the same. This industry as well as all others are controlled by supply and demand. When the demand decreases...so does wages. the key to being and staying financially as well as occupationally successful is to anticipate where the demand is, and will be greatest. I've always held to the belief that my employer is'nt responsible for feeding my family. I am!!!! So irregardless of what the economy, My employer, or the Industry might dictate. I am ultimately going to get and keep control of my destiny!

I believe that Unions may provide as they have in the past a valuable contribution to workers and have a value for companies. I have watched the erosion of salaries and the quality of life in the work place for American blue collar, white collar, and technical or knowledge workers. Under the banner of "More Share Holder Value" whole segments of our population are buffetted about as Capital betrays the Workforce. Capital flows to high growth areas of the world while "Slow-Growth, No-Growth" America wrings out advances through productivity gains and displacement of it's workforce.

IT is the "New Kid on the Block" so to speak, and may not yet relate to the types of problems that have decimated the Blue-Collar segment of the work force. Knowledge workers are in a lucky and unique position to see the future now, and plan for that future. As capabilities and capacity increases in far flung and cheaper places in the world, work will go there. Capital will take that work there because growth is high, return on investment is high. Risk is underwritten by government bail-outs. (Sometimes with tax dollars of the very workers being displaced.)

I do not know that Unions yet think in these terms, but then again neither do Workers.
These issues may be too big for companies and workers alone, but with a voice and a vision they could work together with government to articulate a National Strategy. One for growth, well paying jobs, a good quality of life. ProgressiveUnions have Partnered with Companies to find better ways and solutions. Could not Workers, Unions and Companies Partner with Government to find that National Strategy for growth, jobs, and a quality of life?

America Works -- America Fixes -- America Invents -- America Thinks -- America Leads.

Why should Capital be more valued than work?

In 39 years of practices in the medical profession I have seen assoceations,union,
and other well meaning groups become monsters. In the IT field we our free to strive or stagnate. Above all let us keep it an open, free thinking, self motivating professions.

I'm not sure I understand the link between your reply's title and its contents.

Who do you believe is being stereotyped?

While I understand the intense emotion the subject of unionization has, I don't think it's fair to characterize the issue with only one argument. When deciding whether unions are appropriate for the IT industry, we must consider the costs and benefits, not simply their impact on visas for high tech workers.

Unionization is only a matter of time. This is a very new industry, and just like every other it will "mature". As it does so, the same things that cause unionization in other professions and "trades" will cause union inroads into IT, and this will be a GOOD thing. Will all IT folks be in them -- of course not. But there are many issues that IT folks live with that will not be addressed otherwise (such as extreme workload), and hopefully the influence of unions-to-come will improve things for everyone as a side-effect. Just wait and see... your view at 55 may be different than it is now!

I have been stuck sysadmining for years, trying to keep up with the latest development fads, all the while watching folks from other countries getting the nice development jobs. I wish I had a buck for every time I had to help them get their code working or help them keep it from killing a system.

You can despise collective bargaining organizations to your hearts content, but the guy who puts the bolts on you car might just be providing a better living for his family. I have always disliked unions, but after so many years making computers do things for those who have trouble with 4 function calculators, I'm beginning to understand what they were meant to do, bad results not withstanding. Why DO I carry a pager 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, most of the time, for free?

Thank you for a great post! The H1B Visa problem is only going to get worse. Businesses love them since they can get IT people cheap from other countries. I know, we have about a dozen of them from India here.

There are so many anti-union right-wingers on this board, they should probably change the name to "TechRepubicans".

Chris.

Doctors have them. Lawyers have them. Teachers have them. Why not IT Professionals? I can see lots of advantages but only if we keep it a professional association. Collectively, we are working too many hours as salaried employees. I have been in this field a long time and, trust me, user attitudes have changed. Instead of appreciating what we do they grumble and bellyache if any IT policy or procedure gets in the way of their "fun" stuff. I would consider it a privilege to belong to an association that is populated by my fellow IT professional workers = working anywhere in the world.

As much as I can see both sides of the argument here, there is a place for both a professional organization and a union. Schools and the industry are trying to pump out far too many "IT Professionals" and eventually you will see wages drop regardless or they will find someone else younger or cheaper, etc. etc.
Unions can help to prevent this, but there is a cost to it happening - It's up to you the IT professional and your employer to keep you up to date and pay scale.
Having been in both union and non-union situations, in stictly an IT position and in a Healthcare Related field - The professional organization would be good but be of no help in getting a job necessarily. A union would look after you once you are in.

Yes, i too can see a lot of advantages of a P/O, it will add additional credibility to IT personnel along with an expected standard of professional conduct.
When do we start this organization? and what do we require for resources?

I believe it was Ben Franklin who said that those who would give up their freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security.

If Ben Frankilin were entirely correct in that statement then there should be no laws, no governing factors, no agency's or corporations. Sometimes giving up a little freedom for the right things is worth it. Not that I'm for an I.T. union, I wouldn't want anyone telling me what my abilities are worth. After all were not grunts, we don't work in the pipefitters or sheet metal industry, we get paid for our uncany ability to do what seems to the outside world as impossible. If I've been treated missfairly by a company like Amazon or any one else, I would just find another job. I'm marketable, in fact I would dare say that I.T. is hands down the most marketable field of all the White Collar American industries. So why worry, we have thesecurity, we have the money, why do we need to find more reasons to pout?

Lawrence-Berkeley Labs has a professional workers union -- for more info take a look at the LBL website. In essence, the organization that calls itself a union is a co-operative which has a say in the conditions of the work place...this is not limited. LBL, and this is an advantage of an IT union, is renowned as one of the best places to work in the world...why? Because the employees (90% of which are professionals in their fields) have a say in what kind of environmental safety is provided for them. This safety does not end at the particle accelarators, but extends into an area called "ergonomics". LBL has a complete department devoted to ergonomic awareness for the sake of the onsite employees.
Employment security, if there is a need for such thing, is provided by HR. Eg. If your position in one area runs out of funding, HR works to find you another position within other departments associated with LBL (and directly related to your last position) for as long as you remain with LBL.

If there is to be IT Unionization, the example above is a good example of what would be needed in such a thing.

Personally, unions have their place, and are needed in specific cases. However, the days of the union, especially in aprofessional environment, as a force for change no longer applies. New paradigms are operative, and in order to create something that provides certain advantages, one must be aware of the existing paradigm of professional unionization.

IT Contractors, especially those who are committed to a specific broker (especially if that broker is large) can also be seen as a unionization of sorts. The broker sets the wage figure after discussions with the contractor(s) and then submits that figure to those who require a short-term or long-term contractor.

The IT union exists. It simply is not formalized...to formalize such a thing would be a mistake.

Funny how they always say that. If you don't like the way this country eats its own workforce ,,leave and go to another country.
Let me tell you . This is not the country our sons and daughters died for!
and you Den are either a owner of a H1b visa or a holocaust in disguise as a dot.com

I think you misunderstand Den's comment. He was suggesting, I believe, that many IT unions exist outside the United States, not that anyone should leave the US if they dislike the work environment.

Let's also remember to keep the debate civil andavoid personal attacks.

Bill Detwiler
TechRepublic

I believe he was actually saying that one should leave any place of employment that doesn't meet one's needs and work habits for a place of employment that does.

Oh how much smarter we IT professionals are than those lowly electricians and plumbers. I just wish I made as much and had as much collective force as they do. When the bean counters start looking for places to downsize, union members work together,IT professionals cut each others throats.

But hey, I'm too proud to be mediocre.

I've seen unions at work, and would rather work in a non-union environment. There are so many advantages to a non-union company than there are in places that require you to join a union.

I started out in television broadcasting when I first leftcollege. The commercial television station I was employed at paid less in salary, but I enjoyed working there. I was able to learn much more in a non-union environment because I wasn't restricted to one job, and not allowed to learn other aspects of the industry as was with another commercial television station across town, where there was a union. You were hired for one position, and the union did not allow you to do another's.

I prefer to work for a company which allows me to learn and excel. My belief is that what you do on the job doesn't just help your employer, but can help you. I strive to learn as much as I can on the job. You must enjoy your work, or what is the use of sticking around at a company that you dread to work for, where you can spend at least a third of your daily life.

If find it humorous, that the ones who are a in favor of unions are those that are unhappy with thier jobs.

I would like to see the demographics of IT professionals that favor creating IT Unions. My guess is that they've been in the buisness less that 2 years or are struggling to get in, or are cross overs from other other fields such as office management. I would also bet that each of them feels underpaid and overwhelmed by the expectations they must meet if they wish to compete with those that have the better jobs and make more money.

Thats just all too bad. If you want to join a Union folks, then look into a career in the exciting world of OTR Trucking. If you want to compete, the IT industry is one place where you can get ahead by working hard and out-performing your peers. I can't think of a single other industry that is by is very nature, so naturally anti-union and anyone who doesn't understand this statement hasn't worked in IT (or MIS as it used to be called) very long.

Has anyone out there ever working in IT along side other workers who were Union? I have, and it has made me anti-union forever. How would you like to ask for the opportunity to take on more responsibility and implement or learn a new technology and be told that you can't, because thats "not your job" and be told that you have to put in 2 more years on the help desk before you can be considered for that low level analyst position.

Well, your assumption that pro union IT people are new to the industry or from another field is 100% wrong. I've worked in IT since 1987 and I'm very good at what I do. Your scenario of "How would you like to ask for the opportunity to take on more responsibility and implement or learn a new technology and be told that you can't, because thats "not your job"..." can and does happen in non-union environments.
The post in this thread about the H1-B Visas sums up legitimate reasons for a union.
Chris.

I've been in the union ALL of my life. With all of the benefits, it's obvious anyone who questions if they should be in the union, has not checked into what they can and will do for you. I have guaranteed hours, pay, overtime pay, travel pay, guaranteed cost of living increases, benefits (insurance, retirement, medical, dental), legal support (attorneys to do all the wording for me), and professionalism. (people I have to work with). Us ITs got where we are by investigation, go check it out!

I've travelled quite extensively and currently live in Australia. From my experiences, a Union would absolutely kill the IT industry as we know it. I enjoy the freedom that this industry provides. Plus, I've worked with several other unionized people from the Telco industry and unions do nothing but turn you into a task worker. Maybe not at this point, but given time a Union only destroys the relationship between the employee and company and will drive the IT Pro to become nothing more thana 9 to 5 buzz monkey.

No thanks.

It would appear that a large number of people do not support the concept of workplace unions in IT. Another discussion in TR on the work patterns of IT professionals indicates that there are many people out there who work extremely long hours, whose colleagues or management fail to recognise the hours they put in and who appear to have no choice but to accept the situation.

So people either don't understand the role of a union or have not had the experience of an effective union, or are prepared to put up with anything and everything. Is this how it is? Do we exercise our right to freedom of association (so determinedly) and oppose any efforts to organise our workplaces, but if we're being taken advantage of, we either run away or put up with the garbage, all the while insisting that we have choices and are independent ...

Perhaps IT workers (yes, workers) are better at IT than industrial relations or collective bargaining and this is why there is so much opposition to unions.

I control my life and my wages! if i'm not happy with any aspects of my job, I will find another. Keep Unions away from me.

The ?Union Movement? in this country has always gotten bad press, because the people who own the media are generally the same people are challenged by unions.

The problem we have in the USA is we do not have a history of the ?Craft Guild?. This is a medieval organization that went out favor with the ?Industrial Revolution?. Prior to the ?Industrial Revolution? skilled craftsmen formed ?Guilds? to protect themselves from exploitation by the local robber barons, and to insure a high degree training and professional conduct by its members. These people sold their skills not their labor.

The closest thing we have today is the ?American Bar Association? and the ?American Medical Association?. Both these organizations are self-regulating;require a demonstration of skills prior to membership and continuing training to maintain membership. Membership to these organizations places no limit on income, job mobility or employment.

The ?AMA? and the ?ABA? are organizations commanding a great deal of respect. Who wants to hire a lawyer who is not a member of the bar? Who would see a doctor who had not passed the ?AMA? reviewed medical exams?

The ?IT? world is no different. We do not sell our labor. We sell our skills. An ?IT Association of America? is what we need. It won?t be easy or cheep. It is the best option. It can protect us in the market place. Gives us the freedom to choose where and what we do. Keeps the unqualified out of the market.

Exactly as you stated...Den. Other countries do in fact have unions that are effective. In fact one might say that the CWA union is an IT union. Communications Workers of America. They are NT admins and Oracle DBA's but they are certainly dealingwith much of todays telecom infrastructure. The pay scale thing is certainly the major issue as well as the bad publicity surrounding corruption in the Unions.

The interesting element is that without unions the continued exploitation of work without proper compensation can continue. And maybe it isn't so appropriate for salaried workforce but it certainly could equalize the contracting situation for many workers.

Here in the UK we have a tadition of Unions
and an excellent one is MSF which is devoted to the Manager Group

I have worked for unions for 14 years, and all it did was drive the work force into the ground. Yes, they make sure you have benefits and good wages but the wages are not as competitive as they should be. Also an IT admin will have less flexability to operate because of contract overhead andf guidelines. It worked for slave driving coalmines, factories and railroads. The IT business couldn't be run effectively with unions.....

Sometimes union mentality is hard for me to accept. I don't anticipate ever joining one.

Unions are needed in this country, without
them the american people wouidn't enjoy
the quality of life as they do.

Den is not wrong and a very active one in the UK is the ITPA (IT Professionals Assoc.), which is a branch of the MSF (Manufacturing, Science and Finance) one of the largest unions in Britain or Ireland.

Check out ...
http://www.msf.org.uk/

I was forced to join a union as a condition of employment with a contractor working for the federal government. I even ended up being the shop steward. NEVER AGAIN!!!
The union's only concern was keeping their contract with the agency. I saw more people with no protection and the union contract even stated that we (union members) had no recourse if the company chose to fire us. Even without cause. We lost one worker because she disagreed with the boss one day. Within an hour of the disagreement she was gone. And the union's position was she "threatened the work environment and conditions of the contract". Our pay was artificially held down because of the negotiated wages of the contract. It's hard to work everyday for $15.00 p/h when other workers are getting twice that.
If it becomes a requirement to join a union again I'll go find another job or not take the job.

Being a former Union menber of the American Postal Workers Union. I have found that judging unions that support employees in different situations is simular to comparing apples to oranges. The A.P.W.U had different reasons to be a union than IT people would have I believe. I am not for or aganst unionizing IT professionals. I think that with the current situation of companyies hiring most of us as consultants, at least in the Washington DC area. I have found is the reason the pay is so high, might be attributed to the fact that most of us do not get any benifits. We have to get our own or buy them ourselves. I get alot of offers to work for other consulting firms for big bucks and have taken a few. I think that people believe that if they can make 40-50 bucks an hour that they are in fact worth that much. Gee I don't know about that, maybe with a good benifit package 30-40 bucks an hour is not so bad. Having a union might enlighten prospective employers to increase the idea of keeping there employees with good company benifits as well as keeping all us computer nutz on the bleeding edge of technology. I personally feel that most people want to have a loyal relationship with an employer and get burned out consulting. They also become lazy and sloppy in their work. I do not want to reach that point. Here's a thought! "Why not look at revolutionizing the Union issue like we all have with computers" We have all thought of ways that are very creative to change the way people think about computers why not do the same with Unions? Think about it. Regards!

I have had experience with 3 unions during my life and in all cases they are self serving and have done nothing for me, my job, or my career. Unions breed corruption and unfair senority practices that allow slackers to maintain a job they don't deserve at the expense of more worth talent. Unions decide political affiliations to send your dues to whether you support that cause or not. Union may have served America at one time, today they are an expensive albatross.

I have also been in three unions. My experience with all of them has been incredibly disappointing. If my views didn't mesh with the "collective", I was treated as an outcast as well as a traitor.
I am not one who likes others to make decisions onmy behalf. I would not stand in anyones way of organizing , or joining a union...but my experience has been that it will only be a matter of time before the union tries to make it mandatory for everyone in that particular company/field to become a member. My advice to anyone considering a union is to think long and hard before making the jump. Unions are A LOT harder to get out of than they are to get into!!!!

As for Unions in The UK (And I cannot speak at all for europe) there used to be a thing called the closed shop whereby, if you worked for certain companies, it was compulsory to belong to a union. In both instances that I was exposed to they were uncaring, lazy groups of people who simply wanted to take a piece of your wage each week.
As a Security Van Driver in the late 70s I was forced to join the Transport and General Workers Union and in the 80s, when I worked for the Royal Mail, It was the Union of Communication workers.
The TGWU "Instructed" it's members how to vote in general elections and when I needed help from the UCW over an industrial injury I was told "Nothing to do with us mate, it's between you and management" (Exactquote)
Not surprisingly, when the closed shop was declared illegal I left the union, as did most other members.
I suspect a new IT union in the UK would stink as bad as the old ones.

In the U.S. there are many "right to work" states in which you do not have to join a unionif there is one, but you do have to pay the union dues. Quite of few folks I have worked with and myself sees this as unnecessarily propping up the union. If employees who did not want to join the union did not have to pay dues, I believe the unions in the U.S. would begin to suffer even greater problems than they are now with declining support (last union contract vote only drew about 15% of the votingmembership).