It sounds like you've been attending too many executive brainwashing seminars. Excessive positive thinking only allows one to be more easily manipulated. You see, too much of anything can be bad, positive or negative thinking, so what I propose is alittle more critical thinking instead of putting blind faith in your managers and executives.
Kobalt, look at it this way, a guild or union is a tool, not a boss. A guild would not tell you what to do, it would keep a path clear to allow you to do what you wish to do and make a living by doing so. If you want to be an individual so badly, why do you go to work? The managers and others only tell you what to do and expect that you blindly follow those directives without question. At least a guild would be able to intervene at points and say that this is the way it should be done in IT when it makes more sense from a technical perspective. (the cases where management were technically inept).
An individual must still give sway to external forces and recognize the effect that they have on one's bearing in order to lead his or her own course in life. To ignore the external world while on one's path is an invitation to folly and failure and that is what you are proposing that we do.I propose that we band together in order to minimize the external forces which may prevent us from achieving our goals as individuals, thus allowing all of us to remain individuals without having to bow down to the will of the corporate and become amindless simpering suit like the others who sell their souls and dreams for the company good and CEO's profit.
Both sides can benefit and grow, but both sides will die when one or the other is allowed to whither. If employers keep trying to poundIT into submission then everyone will suffer. I suggest we do something about it for everyone's well being.
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Most of our employers think of us as being in the enlisted ranks. We use and hear the word "professional", but we range from digital artisans to digital janitors. We're given salaries, not hourly rates, because that is much less expensive for the employer. IT consulting is the way. I work, you pay; for ALL of it.
I've been in the IT business for 24 years. I've seen some cases, mostly very early in my career, where a union would have been beneficial. I was a proponent of a union then. But the need for a union has waned as the IT industry itself has matured. It would have to be a very hard sell, today, to convince me that a union would be beneficial.
I agree with this.
I recently read _Lost Boys_ by Orson Scott Card. It contained a chillingly accurate portrayal of the software industry in the early 1980's, around 1983. It reminded me how truly awful things were back then, compared to now.
Unions are not inherently bad things. Some say that if all unions were eliminated, the U.S. would probably go back to the days of uncontrolled fire rampaging through garment factories. I agree with them. However, that does not mean that a union is always an appropriate solution. Nor does it mean that unions cannot outgrow their usefulness.
I recently read _Lost Boys_ by Orson Scott Card. It contained a chillingly accurate portrayal of the software industry in the early 1980's, around 1983. It reminded me how truly awful things were back then, compared to now.
Unions are not inherently bad things. Some say that if all unions were eliminated, the U.S. would probably go back to the days of uncontrolled fire rampaging through garment factories. I agree with them. However, that does not mean that a union is always an appropriate solution. Nor does it mean that unions cannot outgrow their usefulness.
Folks
I work in a large city, but working with contractors/employees that move around alot,
I know the rep of all the shops in town, no one complains like an IT worker - they will tell the world. When I go job shopping, I always tell the recuiters that certain shops have to pay a premium for my time - because everyone in the city knows what a terrible shop they are, bad shops pay more for their talent (or end up only with high priced contractors).
IT shops that treat thier employees poorly,
get what they deserve.
And IT shops in town that treat thier people well, find a ton of resumes on thier desk.
--- also with IT folks always taking classes on the side they mix with regular college kids more often, or they teach the local IT classes, they have started to warn the kids of the bad shops, and those shops start importing off shore talent at an amazing rate, but it still doesn't save the shop from disasters.
The shortage of IT works is permant - no amount of imported talent will change that, shops will have to improve how they treat IT works or they will face worse shortages than the other shops in town.
You don't need a union, when things get bad, leave - apply to the shops with the best reps in town.
I work in a large city, but working with contractors/employees that move around alot,
I know the rep of all the shops in town, no one complains like an IT worker - they will tell the world. When I go job shopping, I always tell the recuiters that certain shops have to pay a premium for my time - because everyone in the city knows what a terrible shop they are, bad shops pay more for their talent (or end up only with high priced contractors).
IT shops that treat thier employees poorly,
get what they deserve.
And IT shops in town that treat thier people well, find a ton of resumes on thier desk.
--- also with IT folks always taking classes on the side they mix with regular college kids more often, or they teach the local IT classes, they have started to warn the kids of the bad shops, and those shops start importing off shore talent at an amazing rate, but it still doesn't save the shop from disasters.
The shortage of IT works is permant - no amount of imported talent will change that, shops will have to improve how they treat IT works or they will face worse shortages than the other shops in town.
You don't need a union, when things get bad, leave - apply to the shops with the best reps in town.
What you are suggesting is based on a myth, that misconception is the belief that there are plenty of jobs in IT. This is a falsehood that is easily exposed when one talks to the many who have been laid off and have not been able to find another IT job since. Talk to those over 40 and you will find that a disporportionately large percentage of them cannot find work in IT either, if there were a shortage that would not be the case.
Sure, IT people talk, but this effect is limited when one is out of work and has to find employment where one can. Let's look at an example of one of the worst employers in the world today for IT and also one of the companies that employs the most H1B visa holders, EDS. EDS has a management ratio of 5 to 1, that's five managers to every one worker. EDS lays hundreds of thousands of people off constantly thus always maintaining the high management ratio since managers are never laid off. When they lay off the get rid of those closest to retirement and thereposition those who are the cheapest to other jobs for which they have no skills. EDS salaries are low, their benefits are poor, and their bueurocracy is legendarily hampering to any creative process. They are also bad mouthed by anyone they consult for, including their old owner and major stock holder, GM.
Has EDS had any problems? No, they have flourished and are still growing, all at the expense of the worker, the IT professional. Does EDS have any problem finding people to work for them? No, they have a massive PR machine that effectively hides all the bad qualities they posess.
Your comment is ill-conceived and wrong, without some intervention companies like this will dominate and force others to employ the same anti-employee tactics to remain competitive.
Sure, IT people talk, but this effect is limited when one is out of work and has to find employment where one can. Let's look at an example of one of the worst employers in the world today for IT and also one of the companies that employs the most H1B visa holders, EDS. EDS has a management ratio of 5 to 1, that's five managers to every one worker. EDS lays hundreds of thousands of people off constantly thus always maintaining the high management ratio since managers are never laid off. When they lay off the get rid of those closest to retirement and thereposition those who are the cheapest to other jobs for which they have no skills. EDS salaries are low, their benefits are poor, and their bueurocracy is legendarily hampering to any creative process. They are also bad mouthed by anyone they consult for, including their old owner and major stock holder, GM.
Has EDS had any problems? No, they have flourished and are still growing, all at the expense of the worker, the IT professional. Does EDS have any problem finding people to work for them? No, they have a massive PR machine that effectively hides all the bad qualities they posess.
Your comment is ill-conceived and wrong, without some intervention companies like this will dominate and force others to employ the same anti-employee tactics to remain competitive.
give up their Freedom for Security deserve neither Freedom nor Security.
Need I say more!
I feel that if I do get laid off from a job, I am not afraid or lazy to go find another job. Its like joining a Fraternity, I gotta pay to join so I can get friends? no room for advancement cause everyone is equal...or unions try to say they are...when unions reach IT thats when things will start to slow down in the field.
Need I say more!
I feel that if I do get laid off from a job, I am not afraid or lazy to go find another job. Its like joining a Fraternity, I gotta pay to join so I can get friends? no room for advancement cause everyone is equal...or unions try to say they are...when unions reach IT thats when things will start to slow down in the field.
I'm getting tired of people with no creativity or original thought posting about the same laments in here... Come on, if you people value your freedom and individuality so damn much why can't you think outside the box and see that an IT union or guild can be better and without the flaws the the unions of old suffer from?
I think a guild would set us free, allow us to do our jobs in a way that made sense, allow us to grow by being able to access more resourses to learn and be able to discuss things more readily with out peers and out mentors. A guild would protect our jobs to allow us to continue doing what we love without the fear that we would be replaced by the tactics of the unscrupulous.
You want freedom, join with other of a like mind and defend your freedom. Those who are not vigilant and who choose to stand alone against the world deserve not their freedom.
I think a guild would set us free, allow us to do our jobs in a way that made sense, allow us to grow by being able to access more resourses to learn and be able to discuss things more readily with out peers and out mentors. A guild would protect our jobs to allow us to continue doing what we love without the fear that we would be replaced by the tactics of the unscrupulous.
You want freedom, join with other of a like mind and defend your freedom. Those who are not vigilant and who choose to stand alone against the world deserve not their freedom.
is not like mine obviously. Starting a Guild is a more PC term for Union. Freedom, you don't even know what it is. Even if its a Guild the basic purpose or essence of a Guild or a "IT union" is the same, provide Freedom for Security. I would never have that. Listen to your self..."choose to stand alone against the world..." I would stand against God if it meant my Freedom. I don't have to join any like minds when my individuality is comprimised and If I don't according to you I don't deserve my freedom. The essence of a Union...to pretend to be something when they are clearly something else. When you understand what I wrote here clearly then you talk to to me.
I would be willing to wager that you are a business owner or at least no longer an actual IT worker but a manager or higher. You did seem to get rather upset easily about the prospect of unions so I would be curious to see what you do for a living.
Anyway, I still don't see how a guild would mean a loss of freedom, why don't you explain how forming an association with others who have the same skills as yourself in order to represent yourselves and only your viewpoints that are similar is a loss of one's freedom? Since when is cooperation with one's peers a loss of freedom?
And, for that matter, don't you give up your freedoms every day that you walk into work? If you were so concerned about freedom you would be unemployed.
Anyway, I still don't see how a guild would mean a loss of freedom, why don't you explain how forming an association with others who have the same skills as yourself in order to represent yourselves and only your viewpoints that are similar is a loss of one's freedom? Since when is cooperation with one's peers a loss of freedom?
And, for that matter, don't you give up your freedoms every day that you walk into work? If you were so concerned about freedom you would be unemployed.
No I am not a business owner, I am 23 working as Field Service Rep doing calls for various clients. I am not a manager or anyone in position in management. Just another IT guy. I enjoy the paycheck that I get every week cause I love my job and more important I earn my money. I could never be able to enjoy my money like this if I am under the knowledge that I am getting paid cause the company can't fire me cause of unions, guilds, or some other B.S. If you feel that a worker has the right to a job, and if he/she doesn't like the working conditions, why can't they go somewhere else? They can you know, its called Freedom!
Do I believe that a worker should be grateful for having a job, YES! These workers whom you thought, I feel, should be grateful for "LEASING" a portion of their lives, aren't they getting paid? Yes! They are getting paid. And how does a company pay them, by making money. So in order for a company to make money (besides selling products and services) someoneelse is working hard and making the company money, right? So don?t say that a worker has the right to have a job, cause I can say that the employer doesn?t have the right to hire you over me.
When you get a job, you should feel like you earnedthat job, not like you deserved that job. The employee obviously feels like he/she found someone that is equivalent to the value of the MONEY that they are PAYING. So they hire you...Now you come in and force an employer (usually with or rarely without the help of the government) to give you a job. So the MONEY that someone worked hard to make for that company should be given to all the workers cause they have a right to that money even if they didn?t earn it. So it doesn't matter if you are getting a paycheck, you are a looter, moocher, grubb, thief, liar, and the word paycheck loses its honor just like you did.
Any other questions?
Do I believe that a worker should be grateful for having a job, YES! These workers whom you thought, I feel, should be grateful for "LEASING" a portion of their lives, aren't they getting paid? Yes! They are getting paid. And how does a company pay them, by making money. So in order for a company to make money (besides selling products and services) someoneelse is working hard and making the company money, right? So don?t say that a worker has the right to have a job, cause I can say that the employer doesn?t have the right to hire you over me.
When you get a job, you should feel like you earnedthat job, not like you deserved that job. The employee obviously feels like he/she found someone that is equivalent to the value of the MONEY that they are PAYING. So they hire you...Now you come in and force an employer (usually with or rarely without the help of the government) to give you a job. So the MONEY that someone worked hard to make for that company should be given to all the workers cause they have a right to that money even if they didn?t earn it. So it doesn't matter if you are getting a paycheck, you are a looter, moocher, grubb, thief, liar, and the word paycheck loses its honor just like you did.
Any other questions?
Are these the same or different? When I work hard to hone my skills to a level above those of my peers have I earned a better paycheck, do I deserve a better paycheck, or both? I am thankfull when my work is respected but I am not thankfull for justbeing given a job.
As for one person earning more due to the work they put into the company, that is the past. There are managers and executives with whom I have had the displeasure of working for who never put in one full day of 'work'. Their time was spent on the golf courses or in the bars with others of their ilk.
The union is a tool, a tool to use in order to demand what you are worth when employers conspire to reduce your worth. True, it is freedom if you can go someplace else and earn the same or more, but when businesses conspire to reduce the worth of your work, (which they have done successfully for IT), then you need to do something to defend that freedom. It's getting to the point where you cannot just walk out to do this, what do you propose that we do to defend our supposed freedom once we can't walk out?
I earned my job, I worked my way from the very bottom up and I deserve what I expect because I worked hard, I have innate talent, I learnall I can, and I applythat to serve the business best. Yet managers have no accountability so they give raises to those who flatter their egos instead of those who do the most. Executives conspire to reduce costs by cutting worker's pay instead of other methods. Hard work and talent are no longer the respected things that they were in your father's and grandfather's age. I don't want a union that will protect the mediocre butt kissers like the current non-union workplace does already, I want one that will get the people who do the best what they have earned. I believe that such a union could be made, but I suppose that certain close minded people just can't see that possibility.
As for one person earning more due to the work they put into the company, that is the past. There are managers and executives with whom I have had the displeasure of working for who never put in one full day of 'work'. Their time was spent on the golf courses or in the bars with others of their ilk.
The union is a tool, a tool to use in order to demand what you are worth when employers conspire to reduce your worth. True, it is freedom if you can go someplace else and earn the same or more, but when businesses conspire to reduce the worth of your work, (which they have done successfully for IT), then you need to do something to defend that freedom. It's getting to the point where you cannot just walk out to do this, what do you propose that we do to defend our supposed freedom once we can't walk out?
I earned my job, I worked my way from the very bottom up and I deserve what I expect because I worked hard, I have innate talent, I learnall I can, and I applythat to serve the business best. Yet managers have no accountability so they give raises to those who flatter their egos instead of those who do the most. Executives conspire to reduce costs by cutting worker's pay instead of other methods. Hard work and talent are no longer the respected things that they were in your father's and grandfather's age. I don't want a union that will protect the mediocre butt kissers like the current non-union workplace does already, I want one that will get the people who do the best what they have earned. I believe that such a union could be made, but I suppose that certain close minded people just can't see that possibility.
Unions can be a useful way to cut down on workforce abuses and conditions,but at a great cost to personal freedom and choice. Whish for a union if you want security and average wages and sometimes good benefits. Don't wish for a union if you don.t want to pay dues to a cause that protects the slackers,non producers,and union reps that take the money and spend it on their own special interestsand causes. Most unions today are promoting less, to the union cause and capitulating more to employer demand.
More of the same corporate rhetoric that is recounted by mindles smiley faced drones in suits ad nauseum... Please, use some critical thought before posting this garbage again, how many times do I have to say that I don't want the old fashioned union, what I want is something better than that and I have already suggested some avenues to expand upon.
Freedom for Security. Those mindless smiley faced drones are the reason you have a job. Why don't be a little more specific in listing your "avenues to expand upon"?
Those smiley faced little drones are the reason that things never change since they are so comfortable with the status quo. The employers need employees more than employees need employers to be quite honest. I think that we will have to debate that fact first before we go much further since I don't think that you see it that way.
Actually, I think you honestly believe that employees should feel indebted to employers for the mere fact that they were offered the opportunity to lease a portion of their lives to them for a fraction of the true worth of that life. I'm guessing that you feel that a worker should be overjoyed to be employed no matter how bad the conditions of the employment are, right?
Actually, I think you honestly believe that employees should feel indebted to employers for the mere fact that they were offered the opportunity to lease a portion of their lives to them for a fraction of the true worth of that life. I'm guessing that you feel that a worker should be overjoyed to be employed no matter how bad the conditions of the employment are, right?
Unions historically had a place to resolve repression in a work place where people were treated like chattel and paid slave wages. At that point in their incarnation, Unions provided a good for the work force and helped to establish fair employment standards across all companies even un-unionized ones because to keep the union out they had to improve to a standard better than a union shop.
People didn?t have the luxury of information we share today with Monster and HotJobs etc. They were stuck in their local area working as they could because most were urban and not very mobile. How many IT workers live below the poverty level, how many are wage slaves, how many are not mobile enough to see other employment with other companies?
I don't think many unions of today offer their members much value (as can be seen by many of the posts) and are more roadblocks to the free economy than they are aids to it. An IT union may start with the best of intentions, but who runs these intentions;who over the years is the steward of maintaining those lofty goals.
Think of the potential power of an IT union. If an organization could shut down almost every modern corporation globally, don't you view that as something that has the power to attract the types of folks that currently run the teamsters or UAW or any of our current unions?
Or perhaps you are naive enough to believe the IT industry is not full of egomaniacs, power hungry despots and political boot lickers. (According to you, this is where IT management comes from) Those people looking to get ahead and a union would provide an even better vehicle than management because it doesn?t even require an individual to have any practical understanding of business.
Unions/guilds are a fine ideal, however, much like communism or socialized medicine or any ?directed for the good of many? organizations they don?t work in real life.
People didn?t have the luxury of information we share today with Monster and HotJobs etc. They were stuck in their local area working as they could because most were urban and not very mobile. How many IT workers live below the poverty level, how many are wage slaves, how many are not mobile enough to see other employment with other companies?
I don't think many unions of today offer their members much value (as can be seen by many of the posts) and are more roadblocks to the free economy than they are aids to it. An IT union may start with the best of intentions, but who runs these intentions;who over the years is the steward of maintaining those lofty goals.
Think of the potential power of an IT union. If an organization could shut down almost every modern corporation globally, don't you view that as something that has the power to attract the types of folks that currently run the teamsters or UAW or any of our current unions?
Or perhaps you are naive enough to believe the IT industry is not full of egomaniacs, power hungry despots and political boot lickers. (According to you, this is where IT management comes from) Those people looking to get ahead and a union would provide an even better vehicle than management because it doesn?t even require an individual to have any practical understanding of business.
Unions/guilds are a fine ideal, however, much like communism or socialized medicine or any ?directed for the good of many? organizations they don?t work in real life.
Reality says there is always another better opportunity. I have moved to 5 jobs in 8 years I have increased my salary by 5 times what is was a less than a decade ago. I am an individual and my skills are highly prized because they are not a commodity. I continue to expand and grow my skill by learning, reading and seeking other opportunities to improve. This is what a laze-faire economy is truly based upon, supply and demand. This is capitalism; these concepts have made the US a world power anda keystone of the global economic archway.
Do you truly believe you are not fortunate to be employed when thousands aren?t? Aren?t you blessed to be able to complain about your miserable position or the way you are exploited when there are others that would trade your insignificant inconveniences for your check? I truly believe you should love what you do. The day you wake up dreading going to work should be the day you start looking for other opportunities, be that flipping burgers or swabbing decks or even dealing crack on the corner if that is your preference. But never forget you are FREE to make that choice. In a Union shop you lose your choice it becomes a condition of employment even if you would choose not to join or support the espoused goals and ideals of that particular union.
I have spent time in many countries and served this one gladly to keep the ideals held in our Constitution. I choose to live in the land of the free because I have see many other options available and don?t like them much. Be glad for your job, your life and guard your freedoms as jealously as a lioness guards her cubs as there are jackals out there in the world that would deprive you of them. Never take your blessing for granted and neverwillingly give away your rights.
I know that may sound a bit like an NRA ad, but see as much of the world as I have and you would share my sentiments.
Do you truly believe you are not fortunate to be employed when thousands aren?t? Aren?t you blessed to be able to complain about your miserable position or the way you are exploited when there are others that would trade your insignificant inconveniences for your check? I truly believe you should love what you do. The day you wake up dreading going to work should be the day you start looking for other opportunities, be that flipping burgers or swabbing decks or even dealing crack on the corner if that is your preference. But never forget you are FREE to make that choice. In a Union shop you lose your choice it becomes a condition of employment even if you would choose not to join or support the espoused goals and ideals of that particular union.
I have spent time in many countries and served this one gladly to keep the ideals held in our Constitution. I choose to live in the land of the free because I have see many other options available and don?t like them much. Be glad for your job, your life and guard your freedoms as jealously as a lioness guards her cubs as there are jackals out there in the world that would deprive you of them. Never take your blessing for granted and neverwillingly give away your rights.
I know that may sound a bit like an NRA ad, but see as much of the world as I have and you would share my sentiments.
Well, I do thank you for the honest post, I enjoyed it. However, the one point to which I contend is that things are not as they were earlier this decade or the last even, actually they are not the same as they were last year. The economy is still stalling and the call for IT is not what it once was. I really want to agree with you that the individual has power here, but it's an unrecognized power. When I leave an organization I do believe I am good enough at what I do that it hurts that organization even though the place I leave has no idea that this is the case. See, I hear from the people who do the work that it did hurt the company, but executives are too far detached from that world so they never know what they lost, so my leaving does little good for them on any term while it used to do something for myself. Now that situation has become a double negative since leaving may no longer bode me any good nor do anything for the company, actually it may help them find someone cheaper even though the replacement will not be as good as I was. But they don't see that, to them one techie is just like another.
Well, I may defend the reasons to unionize or form a guild, yet I see the realities of the situation and see the potential of corruption when it will likely be done in a way that is not thought out. But that is the way of the majority, as it is said by some; a person is smart but people are dumb.
Anyway, I've said in the past that I intend to make an individual effortto correct the situation for all by making a web site that allows employees to grade their employers so people in the job market can find out who to avoid and who they want to work for. Yet the corporate world has much more money and lawyers than I ever could so I don't know how long this would last and I do not wish to have my family suffer for my own crusade. So, how much power does the individual have in this day and age?
Well, I may defend the reasons to unionize or form a guild, yet I see the realities of the situation and see the potential of corruption when it will likely be done in a way that is not thought out. But that is the way of the majority, as it is said by some; a person is smart but people are dumb.
Anyway, I've said in the past that I intend to make an individual effortto correct the situation for all by making a web site that allows employees to grade their employers so people in the job market can find out who to avoid and who they want to work for. Yet the corporate world has much more money and lawyers than I ever could so I don't know how long this would last and I do not wish to have my family suffer for my own crusade. So, how much power does the individual have in this day and age?
PackRatt,
I encourage us all to track our employers and try to improve them. I?ve worked for managers that were looking to coast their last years out and wouldn?t make waves despite knowing his folks were being killed and that the wrong decisionswere being passed down from on high.
From your other posts I see that you?ve had a diverse background in IT and have been around a bit. I personally am staring down that 40 mark and find that my diverse background gives me the ability to see problems and issues from many angles and to empathize with the folks I work with. I think there is a different perspective from executive level management. Most don?t know spit about IT nor about what it takes to make it successful. However, a new trendis emerging. Companies are finding that it is easier to promote a CTO or CIO to a CEO than it is to train the CEO in technology. In corporations IT Management is starting to be held liable. (REF earlier post ?what your missing?) No longer can companies churn and burn talent or they find that they cant complete projects, consistently have high recruiting costs, have to have expensive contractors etc. The market is correcting itself naturally. Am I a big fan of the H1B extensions not really I oppose any interference by government or other organizations.
When I was in industry, it was a constant struggle to educate management that rather than pay that big bucks contractor they could increase wages and increase moral, retention, effort and employee satisfaction.
I feel sorry for those IT folks who don?t feel appreciated and a part of the team. I guess I?m fortunate to work for a technology-consulting firm where technology skills are valued and prized. I?m realistic enough to look ahead so I?m starting to train myself for several technology areas where I can leverage my current skills while being in the right place down the road.
I encourage us all to track our employers and try to improve them. I?ve worked for managers that were looking to coast their last years out and wouldn?t make waves despite knowing his folks were being killed and that the wrong decisionswere being passed down from on high.
From your other posts I see that you?ve had a diverse background in IT and have been around a bit. I personally am staring down that 40 mark and find that my diverse background gives me the ability to see problems and issues from many angles and to empathize with the folks I work with. I think there is a different perspective from executive level management. Most don?t know spit about IT nor about what it takes to make it successful. However, a new trendis emerging. Companies are finding that it is easier to promote a CTO or CIO to a CEO than it is to train the CEO in technology. In corporations IT Management is starting to be held liable. (REF earlier post ?what your missing?) No longer can companies churn and burn talent or they find that they cant complete projects, consistently have high recruiting costs, have to have expensive contractors etc. The market is correcting itself naturally. Am I a big fan of the H1B extensions not really I oppose any interference by government or other organizations.
When I was in industry, it was a constant struggle to educate management that rather than pay that big bucks contractor they could increase wages and increase moral, retention, effort and employee satisfaction.
I feel sorry for those IT folks who don?t feel appreciated and a part of the team. I guess I?m fortunate to work for a technology-consulting firm where technology skills are valued and prized. I?m realistic enough to look ahead so I?m starting to train myself for several technology areas where I can leverage my current skills while being in the right place down the road.
I've belonged to 4 unions and never enjoyed any of it. They took my money when I wasn't making enough to feed my family, and gave it to striking autoworkers in Detroit who were making 5 times as much as I. All this without any regard to my needs.Union...Never again!
Interesting those folks who have been a part of unions seem to have the same opinion after the fact.
Now, I know there are times & places where unions are/have been beneficial. However, I also see cases where the union is only after one thing - money, deserved or not.
One characterization always sticks out, from a sitcom a while back. An autoworker walking around the plant without a shirt. The upper management is inspecting the plant. His comment as he passes them by. . .
"Hey look, themanagement - and me with no shirt! Good thing I'm union!"
Personally I have no desire to be told I have to give a union my money, and be told I can't do something because it's not directly in my job description. There is a thing called creativitythat I enjoy having. I also generally see unions as soley an "us against them" mentality that just doesn't work for me.
I think overall it greatly depends on your employer and your attitude. It should also be noted that it depends on what you define as IT, since telephone line workers have a union (if memory serves) - so just what are we talking about? The International Association of Programmers and Operators?
While unions may be helpful to some professions at times, I don't see the need to join one in IT - at least not at the moment.
K.
Now, I know there are times & places where unions are/have been beneficial. However, I also see cases where the union is only after one thing - money, deserved or not.
One characterization always sticks out, from a sitcom a while back. An autoworker walking around the plant without a shirt. The upper management is inspecting the plant. His comment as he passes them by. . .
"Hey look, themanagement - and me with no shirt! Good thing I'm union!"
Personally I have no desire to be told I have to give a union my money, and be told I can't do something because it's not directly in my job description. There is a thing called creativitythat I enjoy having. I also generally see unions as soley an "us against them" mentality that just doesn't work for me.
I think overall it greatly depends on your employer and your attitude. It should also be noted that it depends on what you define as IT, since telephone line workers have a union (if memory serves) - so just what are we talking about? The International Association of Programmers and Operators?
While unions may be helpful to some professions at times, I don't see the need to join one in IT - at least not at the moment.
K.
Having previously been a union member for twelve years I must agree. I don't miss it. And I didn't just stand on the outside as a member I got involved, worked as a steward and tried to make a difference. There is such a heavy line drawn between union member and managment that the mutual desire for success often becomes blurred. I have been much more successful proffesionally by being in jobs that allow my hard work to be appreciated, rather than the rule of seniority. I feel sure that there are still many places (including the one I was at) where unions are still needed. However I am certainly happy that I no longer find it neccesary to be employed at one of those places. I didn't know until lack of seniority forced my change that I was trading imagined job security for freedom and as it turns out working for less money. Today I require the opportunity to stand on my own merits.
Trade Unions were formed to protect trade professionals from unfair labor practices. In the past fifty years we have come very far with Human Resources and the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) and other legislation to protect trade professionals.While I agree that there are still abuses that are prevalent in the IT workplace, there are also necessary balances. IT trade professionals have an abundance of choices that auto and wharf workers of the early 20th century did not.
If you have the requisite IT certifications (e.g., CNE, MCSE, CIW, etc.) you are already a member of an elite IT union. Networking as it pertains to social interaction are skills that most IT trade professionals are still developing or in some cases, have completely overlooked. This is why promotion to management positions of IT professionals has, in many cases, failed miserably. Thus, the desire to be independent will continue to be a problem.
The IT profession as a whole should realize that it already has the power to make a difference. Network and support your fellow IT professionals. Find a trade organization that is actively pursuing the pioneering of technology people, not just technology. Until you do you will still be on your own personally and professionally.
People are still the best asset that any profession has to offer. So do the right thing, remember IT's all up to us!
If you have the requisite IT certifications (e.g., CNE, MCSE, CIW, etc.) you are already a member of an elite IT union. Networking as it pertains to social interaction are skills that most IT trade professionals are still developing or in some cases, have completely overlooked. This is why promotion to management positions of IT professionals has, in many cases, failed miserably. Thus, the desire to be independent will continue to be a problem.
The IT profession as a whole should realize that it already has the power to make a difference. Network and support your fellow IT professionals. Find a trade organization that is actively pursuing the pioneering of technology people, not just technology. Until you do you will still be on your own personally and professionally.
People are still the best asset that any profession has to offer. So do the right thing, remember IT's all up to us!
Dear Stuart, With due respect for your perspective, you will find, upon cursory investigation of age discrimination lawsuits, as just one example, that settlement, one way or another, requires from five to six, or more, years of "due processing." Do you, or do you know of anyone, anywhere, that depends upon his employment to support himself and his family, with resources capable of sustaining litigation and attorney fees for that period of time? Whilst seeking another position? FLSA, HR, and "Ethics" initiatives are government and corporate charades to keep the masses satiated in ignorance of reality. A parallel technique was used to subjugate and control people via the Constitutional and legislative "guarantees" of individual rights, and the executive and judicial branch enforcement of those rights, by the federal government of the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics for 70 odd years. As a practical matter, the "rules of procedure," "guidelines," and "prerequisites" demandedin legislation carefully crafted by attorney legislators, to ensure professional security should they lose the next election, have relegated protection of the "law-abiding," tax raped, citizenry to the status of ugly wallpaper. I venture your employees are protected much better by their "union" than the high sounding, papier mache legislation enacted by the US congress. Frankly, I envy your bliss. I would think it much more comfortable than those of us whose lot it is to "eat cake" when there is no bread.
ITBeenThereDoneThat,
Slightly overstated, but very well said. The rest of you pay attention. Try using full, well formed sentences and run your work through a spell checker. You Unix/Linux folks, cut/paste into:
cat | spell
The words that come out of the pipe are misspelled.
Regarding paying union dues, I'm a faily well paid W2 contractor. My contracting firm grabs a whole lot more from the client than a union ever would. Talk about leeches. My goal now is to go direct.
Slightly overstated, but very well said. The rest of you pay attention. Try using full, well formed sentences and run your work through a spell checker. You Unix/Linux folks, cut/paste into:
cat | spell
The words that come out of the pipe are misspelled.
Regarding paying union dues, I'm a faily well paid W2 contractor. My contracting firm grabs a whole lot more from the client than a union ever would. Talk about leeches. My goal now is to go direct.
How can the government continue to rape if their is no wage being earned. Yes, there are many other ways to draw blood from a turnip. But, why not allow the litigation to ensue and take from both sides (employer and employee)?
It is always my opinion that the more than can be taken the more interest for the government and legislation.
With regard to lengthy litigation and the funds necessary to support said actions, I find that there are many contingency firms. These law firms/attorneys will take an yviable case and leave the rest (more difficult or less profitable) to the individual pay plan.
Good commentary overall. Thanks!
It is always my opinion that the more than can be taken the more interest for the government and legislation.
With regard to lengthy litigation and the funds necessary to support said actions, I find that there are many contingency firms. These law firms/attorneys will take an yviable case and leave the rest (more difficult or less profitable) to the individual pay plan.
Good commentary overall. Thanks!
Union? I don't think this is a good idea, everyone in IT right now are doing fine and able to negotiate their salary by themselves. Starting a Union is like making some of you guys that would be in charge lazy and richer with the union's monthly contributions, thinking you're fighting for other people. Let everyone be as they are don't start any mess please. This is just my suggestion, if am out weighed by the populace, I would go with the flow, but I don't it's a good idea.
10 or 20 years ago they tried to get us to choose unions and nothing has changed since then. First of all I own two small companies and I can tell you that there are not enough hours in the day to make any real money. Competetion, taxes on this taxes, people working from their garage, plain 'ol cheap people and the manufacutures changing products so fast and only trying to make the money on the supplies. Can unions really help?
The introduction to your article seems to me absolutely correct. At best, Unions provide a bargaining power for otherwise economically challenged groups who have neither the intellect, nor the clout to further their employment conditions.
At their worst, they become manipulative bodies, meddling in politics and providing their leadership (often composed of individuals of dubious reputation) with cushy jobs and a forum to further their own, personal ambitions.
At their worst, they become manipulative bodies, meddling in politics and providing their leadership (often composed of individuals of dubious reputation) with cushy jobs and a forum to further their own, personal ambitions.
I've spent the last nine years of my life working in IT as a Specialist on Nortel PBX systems. I also specialize in networking and POS sysytems. In addition to that I Speak Spanish, English, and Portuguese. Not only do I sing(classical and popular) and write songs and poetry, but I'm also very active.
I play most sports, soccer, chess, snorkeling, you name it.
Right now I'm preparing to take up a new job come March 5. I will be getting a new laptop, moving expenses etc..
If I were partof a union I would not have been recognized for my individual skills and talents, I would have been just another category "X" employee. Nuff said. (The salary is great too)
I play most sports, soccer, chess, snorkeling, you name it.
Right now I'm preparing to take up a new job come March 5. I will be getting a new laptop, moving expenses etc..
If I were partof a union I would not have been recognized for my individual skills and talents, I would have been just another category "X" employee. Nuff said. (The salary is great too)
Simply put, this would kill technology innovation. When there are over half a million IT jobs still going begging, ALL of the normal reasons for forming a union are irrelevant.
IT industry is now facing very uncertain
situation like layoff from top MNC's in USA .
IT Unions will find some soltion of this kind of Uncertain situation.
situation like layoff from top MNC's in USA .
IT Unions will find some soltion of this kind of Uncertain situation.
Hey Guys and Gals, come to Tucson, Az and see what the lack of unions will do to your wages, and working conditions. The City of Tucson and business community keep spouting this High Tech city crap, but you can't have high tech if the same govermentand business community conspires to keep wages artificialy depressed despite the lack of workers to fill the position. They point to large call centers as great high tech jobs. Places where they abuse people and throw them away, with terrible attendance and quality policies that few people can follow. My wife and I tryed to organize Teletech a UPS call center that had a company of 1500 people doing many hours of forced overtime, treated people like they were worthless. Organizing doesn't succeed because of corporate lies, intimadation. People here have never had any education about Unions, because the Republican goverment keeps it out of schools. Workers have no idea what a union is or does. I was educated in state of NY, a union state, I was taught about the union movement in school. One more thing, the statement "it will never work in the IT industry" is the same corporate lie the call centers made "it will never work in a call center". In states where unions are strong wages and working conditions are better, and even though you may not belong to a union you have benefited from strong unions.
Peter
Peter
Strong unions make for weak companies. Weak companies do not equate to job security. Why are you no longer in New York? No jobs? Why are more jobs available in places that are not infested by unions? If Tuscon sucks - go elsewhere, vote with your feet. If you can't find good employment in thos country now, you won't find the future too bright.
I grew up in a union town and all I saw from the union were strikes and a lot of dues paid for not much in return (not withstanding the organized crime aspect). Bethlehem Pa had real strong unions but when the steel business had competition they didn't respond and thousands of folks lost their jobs. Those areas in Pa are still ghost towns.
If we're good then we'll never be out of demand because we will be adapting and updating our skills during our entire careers.
If we're good then we'll never be out of demand because we will be adapting and updating our skills during our entire careers.
IT unions would help prevent companies from taking advantage of IT people. Have experienced bosses who think you are on call 24 X 7 and do not have anything else to do and say 'unpaid OT is part of the job' have no comp time policy, etc etc.
Most professional jobs are exempt from OT pay and comp time. That is an unfortunate fact. However, given the number of unfilled IT positions in the US alone, it is completely unnecessary for anyone to endure poor treatment in an IT job. Just find another one. That my be easier said than done in some cases, but it is a step you should be willing to take if you are truly "abused." Having experienced unions in another career life, I can tell you that they're a waste of money. I constantly watched underqualified, lazy people get promoted because they had seniority. Meanwhile, I was behind these lazy people cleaning up their mess... completely unnoticed. No, IT unions would be a mistake; the current IT market allows for hard work and success tobe rewarded, regardless of seniority. If you aren't being noticed, you should seriously consider a move.
I agree that unions have a place, but not in IT. I would never voluntarily join a union. Unions totally stifle performance and creativity. I saw first hand what happens in the movie industry and it would crush technology companys. IT Clients complain about time and cost to build systems, they haven't seen anything yet!
Pagers and cell phone intrusions into personal time are a part of the job, if you don't like it, there are plenty of IT jobs available, find another one.
Pagers and cell phone intrusions into personal time are a part of the job, if you don't like it, there are plenty of IT jobs available, find another one.
I must agree here, I have been involved in it for about 6 years now I started out as a lowly learner with already advanced knowledge. I feel this way the IT industry needs a special type of person someone who can manage multiple tasks and a memory of pictures. I am on call 24X7 but do you know what my system never goes down. I say this, I joined with this company from day one I had the idea the design and I never stop learning. I see another IT here barging about what he dose and how many languages he can speak. Well that?s all fine and dandy here I play OLG's in my spare time and I often do it here at work. I have a creative dtt2500 speaker system and you know what I turn it up loud during the day and play music. This is my IT dream yes its filled with stress but you know what this is my world. You bring a union into my world and it will do nothing its not even welcome. I think yes let us fight to get paid more of they don?t want to offer it I can show my stuff elsewhere. Do I want better pay what do I do? Hmmm I might start by talking with my boss. "Excuse me Don I feel that my performance has been exceptional I have provided another year of flawless service with minimal down time and conserved several thousand's of dollars I would like a raise and I feel an additional $$$$ would be appreciated" this has worked for me. Those of you who feel that phone support with a book in front of you is the IT industry I feel that you are greatly mistaken. The IT industry is us, we who keep the world alive. Data streams threw our networks and at flawless speeds. Open your eyes its our world, We the network engineer, We the system Admin, We the hacker, We the security analyst, We the person?s who get those calls at 1 in the morning with a question and can answer it in our sleep, The We who power this generation with code slipping threw our brains while we sleep.
It is definitely time for IT Unions. A lot of you have secure, high-paying jobs. But most of us "entry-level" IT folks do NOT. I have nearly 3 years experience in the field, which is still novice-level, I understand. But I am offered a pay rate of less than $10/hr. in 95% of the jobs I have had or interviewed for.
The workers deserve better than this. Sure, IT management always makes a nice cut, but for once, I'd like to see the grunts running cable, using Norton Ghost, and listening someonebitch that "I screwed up...." such and such for $8.25/hr does NOT cut it anymore. Which is one reason I am actively trying to find work outside of the IT world. At least in my experience, the pay is MUCH too low for the level of stress it requires.
I live in Florida, too, where the numbers might be skewed. We're a right-to-work state, and have ridiculously low pay rates compared to other states.
IT Workers Unite!
The workers deserve better than this. Sure, IT management always makes a nice cut, but for once, I'd like to see the grunts running cable, using Norton Ghost, and listening someonebitch that "I screwed up...." such and such for $8.25/hr does NOT cut it anymore. Which is one reason I am actively trying to find work outside of the IT world. At least in my experience, the pay is MUCH too low for the level of stress it requires.
I live in Florida, too, where the numbers might be skewed. We're a right-to-work state, and have ridiculously low pay rates compared to other states.
IT Workers Unite!
Although I have not belonged to a union before I have met plenty of people who have and find the unions to be corrupt, dishonest and serve no value. I have been in the IT field for a number of years and have never experienced any problems that would warrant a union. Unions serverd our workforce well in the early part of our history but in today's workforce there is not place for a union. I have to agree with a number of people posting their comments saying that IT pro's should decide career growth and not let it be dictated by an organization out for its own interests. I do not want to work along side a deadbeat making the same pay as I do but performs at minimal effort. If an IT pro or anyone else has a lot of unfair problems at workthen maybe that person should think about looking for a different company. If a proposal for a union ever becomes a factor I would fight to the T as best to my ability to prevent it. I hope this is the feeling among the rest of my counterparts in the IT world.
In my estimate unions are long overdue for IT and other technical contractors. Contractors do the same jobs that perm employees do except most of the time they do it better. However the pay is lousy. There's absolutely no job security whatsoever,no bennies and training has to be paid for out of pocket. Also the same companys who hire these people as contractors would never dream of hiring them as perm employees. Why should they when they get them so cheap as contractors? So they get the same job done much cheaper than if they had to pay a perm employee to do the same job. This is a classical case of an exploited labor market. Unionization would go a long way toward improving conditions/pay for IT contract labor. Perm employees have no realincentive to join or support a union but personally I think unions would be a Godsend to IT contractors.
If there was a union, I can guarantee you the first thing they would do is make sure no contractors get hired. Unions HATE contract workers (I'm one of them in a big Telco). As a contractor, unions do not help me at all. Yes, I have no job security other than the quality of my work. Good contractors at this telco get rehired for other projects - some people I know have 10+ years at this telco as a contractor. My benefits? Tax write-offs I could not do as an employee. I now make more moneyand pay fewer taxes than I ever did as an employee. Get in with a good agency, and you never have to worry about not working.
I have scene many unions and what they can do. I have yet to see one that if you let them have the IT world in their claws would do anything for it. If we let some suit behind a desk suck up 300 dollars from our paycheck X 500,000+ he would need to retire in about 2 months. I would not be willing to pay a person to sit behind a desk and get fat off my hard work (who are we kidding here) yes this may not be manual labor but tell me are you really concerned with loosing your job? Getting treaded bad? Hell most of us could just walk out the door and find we have job just waiting for us. This whole thing of unions will just become us employing a group of people to just make money. We will pay them to never need to help us. We already get good job, good opportunities. If it were to come to a union I feel that they would never find me joining, nor would union members be allowed in my department. One last thing here, have you ever scene a union crew fix a hole in the road. 2 guys drive the truck, 2 guys shovel out asphalt you have 4 ppl on standby with brooms, 3 packers. Yet it takes them 4 hours for a 1-foot by 1-foot hole. What would you do if your company had to hire all these extra llamas? This would bother me I like my bonus, and if it gets cut back that other person better be worth it.
Would the introduction of apprentices raise the level of IT pros expertice? The wide varience in requirements would create a multitude of logestic problems to set up. Also many other unions will illegally put someone out to work by simply paying a fee. I have personally seen it happen, what safeguards could we use to stop this? For the near future I will certainly NOT vote for unions.
A talented, hard working individual will always rise, and be paid what he is worth. A union never has and never will help such a person. Union organizers are those who cannot do; those who wish to have others pay their way; those who trade on the ability to get something for those who cannot, or will not, earn what they desire by their own merits. There was a time when unions were needed, and served a useful function. Now they take your wages, and provide little or nothing in return; federal and state laws have replaced the workstation fairness that the union used to provide. They need to die and slip away, and their administrative personnel need to work for a living, and stop bleeding their members.
Great article and the thing that I would like to point out is that unions will come in. These thug brutish criminal organizations will keep pushing and one day soon will have enough of a foothold to be able to control how employers manager their work force. The two reasons I believe will cause this will happen is that many workers from traditional jobs which are heavily unionized are coming across into IT and these workers have no problem with unions. I also believe that too many IT managers have no clue about separating work from home life and expect that their underlings will follow their lead. Unfortunately for the managers the underlings (usually in high pressure support organizations) are very undertrained but are asked to respond as if they were pros and are badly underpaid because of too many bodies available at this entry level. Yes, union gangsters will come and control the workplace and it will happen soon unless managers start maturing and realizing that their workforce needs to have a greater balance in recognition, benefits and ability to see completion/closure more often than they do in their job.
For all it's worth.
For all it's worth.
A union would not be favorable to IT professionals such as developers, business analysts, project managers, etc...
But it may be a very good thing for system administrators, operators, etc - people whose work is driven by schedules that they rarely have any control over. These people usually get bombarded with requests that are unplanned and needed ASAP - forcing them to work overtime or well into the night without notice. Their work tends to go unnoticed by the business because they're locked in a secured area.
These are the people who could benefit from the protection of a union.
... Any thoughts? ...
But it may be a very good thing for system administrators, operators, etc - people whose work is driven by schedules that they rarely have any control over. These people usually get bombarded with requests that are unplanned and needed ASAP - forcing them to work overtime or well into the night without notice. Their work tends to go unnoticed by the business because they're locked in a secured area.
These are the people who could benefit from the protection of a union.
... Any thoughts? ...
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