Discussion on:

IT pros take a cautious approach to unions

You have identified a core problem with this entire discussion. There are those who have a life and those who don't. The are the computer tamers and the computer care takers and, worst of all, the user caretakers. I you have it good in IT, chill out. Let folks get together and do a little cooperative supply and demand application with their own time and effort. You may wake up one day on the wrong end of a merger and need the good will of your peers.

I believe unions will be counter-productive for IT workers because I do not want my value to the company determined by the union rules, but by what I accomplish and what kind of job I do. I have known too many union workers who do the least amount of work they can get away with. I believe unions foster a "you owe me" mentality, not an "I am a responsible employee and can make my own choices" type of mentality.

Having once been a union employee I can honestly say that they promote the mediocre at the expense of the talented. They cost more time and money than they are worth. I would NOT join a union!

There are more IT opportunities than ever before. Only small minded people with a bad or no work ethic want or need a union to protect them. Does anyone really want the price of software to increase because it costs more to produce it? The best IT people are very well taken care of. This should be incentive enough to keep upgrading skills and get better at what you do. If you need to feel protected, go get a government job.

I work for a company in which you can get fired if you don't work the hours they tell you you have to work. If they say you have to work 90 hours per week and you don't, you risk your job. After seeing how people are treated by this company, I am pro union.

I would not join an IT union. I worked in a union position for 23 years, and I agree with Kurt Moser that it was a waste of my time and money. My experience with unions was that the union leaders took care of themselves and sold out the rank and file. I consider myself to be a professional and want to be paid as such - according to the job I do and the expertise I bring to it.
Fortunately IT managers are currently a valuable commodity and have choices if they are not satisfied where they are.

I was just joking with a consultant the other day about a union and the stereotypes of unions. I have never been in a union so my only experience with them is what I see and read in the media. Unions seem to be organizations that promote strikes and sickouts to gain what they need. I look at our local airline and the frequency of strikes and sickouts that make it impossible to travel. Just imagine if your whole IT department goes on strike. Even if you get what you want how does it affect your business? If you go on strike for a month, will the business survive? Would these types of tactics promote farming out for smaller businesses thereby decreasing the jobs available for IT workers? Will the smaller business survive in a crisis situation? Unions don't think about the others that are involved and what could happen to the innocent people that may be sacrificed to attain their goals. I say think hard about the consequences and the effects that may result.

Fortunately you discovered this lesson without having to be part of a union. I have been in union shops, strikes and sickouts, do the employees get their full wage for them?, no, but the union management does. Unions make people lazy and dependant on the union to protect their buts. When it comes to contract time, it is the Union and Management who are in bed together, not the union fighting for the workers. I beleive in making my own decisions, feeding my family and feeling like I accomplish that every payday without paying a union boss that does nothing for me. I am responsible for myself and my actions and not scared to say so.

In this day and age the basic problem with unions is that it immediately turns the relationship with the employee into an adversarial one. Far better to let talent negotiate salary and benefits and give them a piece of the (ownership) action.

Union mentality encourages minimum performance and basically supports such performers who have lots of time in over motivated workers.

Unions were great in the 1930's in the auto, steel and textile industries. The same approach today is passe.

I prefer to negotiate my own wages/benefits. The only person I trust to do that for me is ME. All a union does is make everyone EQUALLY miserable. For those people who complain because their being treated unfairly, CHANGE JOBS!! If you are so incompetent that no one else would have you, then don't force me to join YOU in the ranks of the mediocre by having a union. Wake up and think for yourselves, that is what America is all about.

I have been in IS in the healthcare field, which is notoriously lower in scale than other sectors, for over 10 years. I worked 24/7 on call, with no on-call pay, for the first 6 years. That was still not enough to make me join a union.

Before IT, I worked as a Journeyman in metal trades. I cut sprinkler pipe and made on fittings. The union card was all it took to get me into a nuclear plant as a journeyman pipefitter. They gave me a bunch of prints and a kid jsut out of welding school and set me to work with no experience. That's the picture I have of unions and I'd have to say NO WAY!

I am not in favour of unions. I beleive
that people should be paid in relation to their skills and ability. They should have the opportunity to advance when it is present. I am however in favour of having a mediator when a staffing firm and a company agree to have the staffing firm hire their employees. I have found that this is done so that companies can ignore the labour laws. Once a contract is signed, the Federal labour departments will not stick their nose in to help. They hide behind the fact that there is a contract. I was recently with Nortel Networks under a staffing contract and I am not afraid to say I(and many others) were treated like dirt. Better legislation needs to imposed so that companies don't get away with what I saw. I am proud to be in this industry and keep improving myself and glad not to have a union sticking their rules in.

Unions began as necessary bodies on the 19th century political scene. We are no longer in the days of the Pullman Strike Riots, however; unions may well be the downfall of our economy. They are the refuge of lazyassed, stupid, corrupt, ignorant, overpaid offal and I will fight them tooth and nail. No shitassed shop steward determines my wages--MY brains, MY initiative, MY education and hard work do.

Would you deny me fairness and equality of opportunity?
Or if I had a 'lesser' brain or no initiative or denied access to your education.
That is why for many people all over the world to be in a union would be a privilege and make their life better.

Not everyone is as wonderful as you are. Other people might be good, but not as good negotiating their own working conditions and wages.
So - you don't require a 'shitassed shop steward' to determine your wages. You clearly realise your true worthalready without any shop steward's assistance.

IT professionals are usually considered management positions, even thought they not be manageing anyone. Managers are required to put in the time it takes to get the job done. However, sometimes, companies can get too demanding on this one. they keep assigning big projects with timelines that are impossible to reach within reasonalble work hours and then keep changing the project while you are working on it.
i personally have been retired for 10 years from the day 2 day IT hassle, and don;t feel any loss. but i have watched these things degrade by keeping up with employees (friends) from my company. it was bad when i worked and has gotten much worse in later years. the company feels they own you because they are paying you more, even the lower level programmers are paid more than many department managers in other departments of the company.

I'm right in the middle of CIW webmaster training, and am about to commit to Java certification as well. I chose these fields because of the excellent income potential they offer for people who can do the job, and do it well. If the IT industry unionizes, I'll take my talents to some other field.
Unions have the stated goal of making things "fair" for all people and for "protecting" the rights of membership; in reality, unions create an artificial shortage of available labor, restricting productivity and long-term viability of the industry as a whole.
Free markets and free trade for everybody!

Having been in several industries I have first hand experience with unions. In general unions are for the lazy and un-inspired people. Unions generally drag folks to the lowest common denominator and never reward personal initiative but infact oppose it. Give me the oppurtunity to succed or fail on my own merrit and my own pesonal initiative. Secondally security in a union is a myth. There is none. Let me make my own security by my own hand. No more unions for me.

Unions would be the doom of the IT professional. Being part of Union would make IT people just that workers and not professionals. Unions are of the days of old when my father worked a 40 hour week for for 40 years to retire and get a pension. The world has changed and people who believe in the good old days and look for a job to work until you retire are looking for dinosaur jobs. I like the knowing that I have skill set that is required. If a job mistreats I move on to another job. I like being in control of my career and not paying some organization to hold me back. I am definitely against unions in the IT feild.

I don't understand what would compel an IT employee to join a union. The union cannot negotiate compensation superior to the market place, and would corral salaries into an average scale without motivational incentives. I am involuntarily a memberof a professional union. The contract negotiated is inferior to my non-represented colleagues.

Until deviation from the definition,unions can do much better Job. The role of the unions in IT industry could be a different one. We may need to do some cut and add to the functionality. For example, to take care of the employee in his unexpected medical expenses Or helping him in career development programs. At the same time, unions can't force anything on different salary scales which merely individual performance and is based on individual's development of knowledge. In my point of view, ifa union is formed with experienced IT professionals and/or professors in the active role, it can be used as a external control measurement mechanism of the employee - employer relationship in IT industry.

I agree that the major trade off is security for freedom, I would not join any of the unions as currently implemented in the IT community. I do not yet see a time when the upper level IT professionals will not be able to negotiate reasonable pay, benifits and new jobs. However, I do see the potential for hourly tech support and manufacturing personnel to want to seriously consider IT unions as the revenue is constrained by competition here and abroad.

I'm not mediocre. I do not need to be paid just like the guy standing next to me. I'm paid what I'm worth, and I'm worth a lot.

People that want unions do not want to work.

What we have here is an argument for argument's sake where nothing at all will be accomplished.

I think we have to establish some definitions so that we can all discuss this in a civilized and intelligent manner.

1.) What is a union?

2.) Can there be a different type of union for IT?

3.) What is a Guild and how is it different from a union?

4.) Is there a problem in the IT workplace that needs to be addressed?

5.) If there are problems, are unions or guilds the only way to address them?

6.) Is job-hopping still an option given the current economic climate, can we still vote with our feet?

Also, I think that we need to figure out who the managers and executives are in here who are contributing to the discussion sincethey will always argue against ANYTHING that will improve things for workers, guild, union, whatever.

Ok, please continue with the mindless arguing now... Or, just maybe, try to do this with some maturity and intelligence.

You expect a solution? Silly boy. Read the heading: Discussion.
It's a place to air thoughts... to freely exchange ideas and experiences.
First, I'm not in management and don't want to be. I've got a great job and great managers.
I don't see unions as a pactical answer because of the creative nature of many IT - IS - Development people in the business.
I don't see an organization like the IEEE as an answer because its source of support is often the industry itself.
I do see the possibilityof a guild in the mix, but do not see a lot of support because the highly creative prima donna types are not interested in politics... only their work.
I do see problems in the industry, but they've always been there. Scott Adams' Dilbert expressesthe problems best. Unions, guiilds, and organizations are not going to protect us from the products of the Peter Principle.
Obviously, Unions are not the only way to address a problem of a bad manager. I have worked in two companies where an entiredepartment has "revolted" against its manager, both times with effect and not always with full support of all the staff. Don't be afraid to talk to fellow workers about what to do with the "pointy-haired boss."
Voting with one's feet still does work for the individual. If conditions are that bad, then you need to do what is best for you and not worry about the company or your career. Consider how much of a hole in a lake of water is left when you take you hand out of it. Just as others are waiting to fill your job, you may find a place where their hand was previously located...

No, I guess I'm too idealistic and shouldn't expect a solution. Yet, civilized discussions and arguements have certain criteria to be met if you want to be technical about it. Rules for constructive arguements have been around since the ancient Greeks, these were created to assure that people did not argue just for the sake of arguement but to come to a conclusion that could be agreed upon, even if that logical conclusion was that there is no solution.

Of course, I learned these things in college in a liberal arts setting where areas of study included philosophy, ethics, and logic. Yes, the very things people in business these days seem to lack any understanding of.

Anyway, I too see a guild to be the best answer, yet highly unlikelywithout a majority or absolute level of support from the IT professionals, as you can see here that is not likely to happen since many here fail to see any problem at all that needs corrected. A professional association seems the most likely course yet such associations are often all bark with no teeth. There are exceptions like the AARP, yet those have the power of many voters where an IT association would have little money or voting power to sway anyone.

Just because the problems have always been there doesn't mean that we should lay down and accept them. Of course, I point you back to the fact that I am an idealist.

It's rare to see whole departments or large enough portions of departments 'revolt' against bad management, but whenit does happen managers are usually able to blame the problem on the employees, there is no accountability in the right places in the corporate world today, and that's the problem I think. If managers were blamed for mishaps and executives were fired when profits failed then you would see a difference.

If you would like to get pigeon holed into working on only one application or type of server go unions. I know the thing I like most about working in the IT field is the ability to work with all sorts of apps and servers. My two cents worth.

Due to ever decreseing and demeaning condtions in the industry as a whole, I not only see the need but feel employer actions at the present time will presure more and more employees to seek union representaion.It is not just about money but dignity,fair play,and the lack of descent treatment as the steam roller of change tries to make robots of a human being and fails to see people as what they are!Human..

I work in a smallish town where large companies and career progression are limited to a couple of companies, as most of the IT jobs are with small firms or branch offices.

A lot of these companies offer rubbish wages no matter what experience youhave and as the jobs aren't plentiful its either bite the bullet and take a job or find another industry.

I beleive a union would be good to provide at least a minimum wage level for each kind of role.

I am currently in a union (due to company policy and union definitions) and find it very limiting. When I hired in, I was at the top of the pay scale and had nowhere to move in terms of pay. They were able to suplement with training, but because of a merger, that stopped.

I feel that the union has it's place in our company, for the phone side. However, it is not only not needed for the "data" side, it is hard to hire in qualified people. It is also hard to get motivated to do somethingextra, since there will be no advancement in pay or benefits. Of course, there is the benefit of paying for the union, to the tune of over $1200 per year. What fun.

I probably wouldn't join a union again
if I had anything to say in the matter.

Though I have already said , in another discussion on techrepublic, that a Union may be an answer and a solution to the problems like unrealistic deadlines, perfomance pressure leading to great health and family problems etc. But I am also equally of the view that these unions may became a playfield of some political minded Software Engineers and hamper interests of both a good tech worker and of the organisation. So in this case What I think is if we have a global code of conduct for both theemployee and the employer then we will be going in a constructive direction.

I am located in India and most of the offices here are required to communicate with the US Office or the offices in Europe. So what a IT Pro need to do is to be in the office till 8:00 PM to 10 PM at least twice a week if the parent office is in the USA. and if the Parent office is in Europe, We may have to get up early in the morning and handle the conversation from BOSS. And usually this happens twice or thrice aweek. So this makes or hours in the office around 12-14 hours and a disturbed family life. Where do and IT pro go if he wants to raise his voice against this as if speaks to the management, he stands to loose his job.
So A global Code of conduct should serve the purpose.

Unions are traditionally for labor intensive (hence the term 'labor unions') industries. Samuel Gompers started the AFL by unionizing cigar rollers. Then moved on to organize coal miners, textile workers, and other labor groups. What was left out ofthe early movements were the 'craft unions'. Due, mainly, because these skilled workers were in high demand and did not have a strong central unionizing force.

"Whether printers, plumbers, glassblowers, machinists, or of other skilled trades, they possessed abilities their employers could not do without. Their relative scarcity in the labor market and their irreplaceability gave them bargaining power. The unions that they formed admitted members based on their skill, not on who employed them or in which industry they toiled. Such realities prompted the craft unions to seek firmer control of the labor market in order to maintain wages, set the pace of work, and regulate mechanization. -Minutes of the Executive Council of the American Federation of Labor " Frightening how much this sounds a lot of what is happening to the IT doesn't it.

Here?s what happened to them: ?Such realities prompted the craft unions to seek firmer control of the labor market in order to maintain wages, set the pace of work, and regulate mechanization. While the separate crafts had common interests (such as reducing the hours of labor), protection of its own trade was each craft's most basic concern. Sectionalism undermined the ability of the various crafts to cooperate and had even caused the disintegration of the Federation of Organized Trades and Labor Unions.?

Amazon may have some workers who are overworked - however, if they are competent Internet IT professionals, there are more jobs out there than potential applicants, so they can leave at any time.
My last check on a single job site for my local areaturned up nearly 2000 jobs to apply for, and that's discounting 3 areas of knowledge entirely.
With those numbers of positions and the number of skilled staff available, I will shout as loud as I like on my own, and if I'm not heard I'll leave. It's as simple as that. Why wait and pass it through others? I want the changes now.

I've worked around union employees in the 'labor intensive' industries I've seen talked about here. They inhibit creativity and crush a worker's spirit to work harder. I am a college student now because I want to be paid for my knowledge and ingenuity. There is nothing as disheartening as having your boss tell you that you're a great employee, but he can only give you a raise in line with the Union scale. When I rose from 'grunt' to crew leader in 4 months, I was given my quarterly(every 3 months) raise of....25 cents. IT professionals faced with unions should get their resume together...and walk.

Unions had its time and purpose 50 years ago, when there were a lack of laws that protected employees. Today, there are thousands of pages in the US Code with laws and regulations protecting every employee.
Unions were an important tool at that particular time and environment. Now a days, unions have changed their scope and are simply protecting disgrunted employees, troublemakers, and lacy people. I have been working for 11 years in the Fed. Gov. and have been able to succeed by my own merrits. I have had many different bosses and never have had to recurr to the union for any kind help or protection.

I've done my share of all-nighters, paid my dues on the weekends, and I'm sure all of us were on call Jan. 1, 2000, but there's no way in hell I would join a union. I do this stuff because technology is cool, and since I'm pretty good at it I get paid pretty well too. Union? It's a dirty word.

In the beginning when a union forms, all looks good. There are seemingly solid reasons for joining a union. Ah but all is not as it appears. Giving up freedom of self determination in exchange for "security" is a very seductive illusion. What a small price we place on freedom these days! Excellence fairs best in free markets. Workers want security, strive for excellence! I would never join a union. If the IT field became unpleasant to work in or over unionized then I'd change fields. I've done it before.

I agree with what appears to be the sentiment in the industry. I would rather my merits and knowledge be the determining factor.

We are a customer driven industry. Our clients -whether the desktop user, or the dept manager- demand the best and most knowledgeable technicians to support them. Having a union might allow some without those skills access to jobs that might not be suited to the individual. You only have to hit a key, or click a mouse to bring down a network.

I've been self employed for over 15 years and have had no need for a union although Ibelieve unions are good for some industries. I dont feel the IT feild is one of them,as a new member of the IT feild I would hate to see the oppertunity for self growth and advancement to be halted by the incorperation of unions into the IT feild.

Having 30 Years in this field watching it go from DP to IS to IT and card punches to Palm pilots, I am dismayed that over 40% think unions would work in this Field. I am not anti-union and Unions have their place but only where productivity can be easily measured and the output of each individual can be boxed into a range of expected results. This is impossible in the world of Computers as it is extremely fast paced, as much art as science at least at the development level. Studies have over and over shown that a "1 programmmer is not interchangeable with another programmer" and the productivity of 2 peope sitting next to each other (doing the same job) can be 75 or even 100 - 1 in productivity. Unions foster "do it this way like everyone else" with no additional compensation coming back to standouts. This field has progressed due to Talented people with lots of energy and initiative doing new and outstanding things. This would not work in a Union shop and everyone knows it. Most of us are constantly re-inventing ourselves, learning new technologies as they arrive in order to stay employed. We have our share of slackers in this field, those who want to rest on their laurels and live with yesterdays technology. Let's not give them a place to hide. If so wait for 15 years, so I can retire first.

Unions stifle creativity and reward sloth. The surest way to kill the IT revolution is to create an environment where the smallest of work assignments would be subject to Union scrutiny and the least creative & productive people are paid the same asthe "best and the brightest". You thought software was expensive before, wait until it's unionized!

I believe unions would be destructive to the IT industry. I worked as a Merchant Marine before going back to school. The merchant fleet is rife with under motivated people who can get away with this because of the union effect. My advancement is based on my ability and skills, unions would allow people whom lack drive or motivation to populate our field.