Discussion on:

Who ARE these virus writers?

I was expecting a little more beef and less fluff, even in an opinion piece.

What interested me, though, is the list of the criminals and their relatively light sentences. Where is the outrage from the community at large, let alone the tech community, over how those software criminals have been handled? Check your local papers. Compare the punishment your legal system heaps on some punk who steals a $10 CD to the punishment handed down to the hackers we've caught. Hell we had a couple steal $300,000 FROM THE SCHOOL SYSTEM in Kentucky and they got a slap on the wrist, a little jail time, and they're back out on the streets... It ain't right!

Both British and American Law seem to value damage or theft of Property as a far greater crime than damage to another human being. The sentences described in the article are very comparable to some of the sentences that violent criminals are receiving even after multiple offences.

A two year prison sentence, it seems to me, would scare the hell out of someone who would be perceived as a computer geek.

We are constantly bombarded with figures telling us how much money was "lost" by businesses to Unproductivity, Poor Infrastucture, Crime etc etc etc These are the very things that keep about half of us in the Industry in jobs. Capitalism needs these problems and so called 'costs' to keep the drive.

Without them we would soon revert back to earlier days were we didn't have a hundred companies providing some sort of service to our own meaning a loss of thousands and thousands of jobs within the industry and our attentions would be forced to look elsewhere for the Big Bucks.

Offenses against property ARE offenses against people: property belongs to people, and can be considered an extension of people. Furthermore, many of the "social" problems in the world result from violation of property rights - think of Zimbabwe and the Holy Land. A capitalist once chose to build his new factory in the South-Eastern U.S. because the wages were lower there than elsewhere in the U.S. But wages are lower still in the Third World: what advantage had S-E U.S. over the Third World? In a letter to the Economist the capitalist explained: "courts that respect property rights and phones that work". Respect for property rights could end global hunger and poverty within a generation, while making the currently rich countries even more wealthy materially - think of the work necessarily expended in response to the theft of a credit card, work which might have been aplied productively.

"Respect for property rights could end global hunger and poverty within a generation, while making the currently rich countries even more wealthy materially"

The second part is correct but that's the whole point! Global hunger and poverty has been established and perpetuated by capitalists since the time of the conquistadores. 'Property rights' have been instrumental to this and are used to reinforce Western economic interests and values around the world and maintain the dependency of second and third world countries. I'm not a communist or an apologist for capitalism but these are self-evident truths surely? To claim your value set would improve the lot of others if only they adopted it seems arrogant! It's a colonial attitude that always backfires (e.g. Bush & Rumsfeld in Iraq).

Script-kiddies, hackers and other anti-establishment groups attempt to rail against the 'complex'. They take pride in attacking this infrastructure and small victories like Sobigf, blaster, etc are celebrated as such but they're small fry compared to, for example, the white-collar crime going on. A good analogy is the focus upon visible 'street-crime' which is in total disproportion when compared to the amount of domestic abuse happening. Hackers/virus writers are just a side-show. If they're going to hammer anybody why not Enron and Anderson? What did those guys get for what they did?

Give me a break!!! I don't know how you can call something that results in millions of lost hours of work "A Prank."
A prank is defined as; "prank1 [pr?ŋk]
noun a mischievous trick or joke, esp. one in which something is done rather than said."
Mischief: [n] reckless or malicious behavior that causes discomfort or annoyance in others .
These worms/virii are a blatant attack on privately owned computers. If you caught someone throwing eggs at your brand new car, you wouldn't be complacent; you'd be downright furious!
Over the last year at work, I have spent over 6weeks repairing the damaged caused by these "pranks." I'm shortstaffed as it is, and have better ways to spent my time, like coming up with and implementing a cohesive system that will manage security threats and software deployment effeciently.
Instead, we run around putting out fires because most users are too stupid to read the warnings that are sent out regarding the "pranks."
Giving script kiddies credit as "antiheroes" does nothing but influence other kids to try it themselves.

If you're spending more than 10% of your time fixing things that these bugs are breaking, you need to be looking at sounder security policies, tighter reins on your users, appropriate screening and auo-removal of attachments "before" they get to your users, automated and religiously updated anti-virus products, etc. There have been very few attacks where the patches and warning signs were not out long before that damage occurred.

And before you tell me I don't understand...I manage our desktop services environment along with coordinating our network security team...so yes, I do understand.

(NOTE: I in NO way condone what we have come to call "hackers", or script kiddies, or creaters of malware. But they are out there, all I can do is make sure that I change the locks on my doors when an announcement comes out telling me the crooks have the keys.)

The Conquistadores were facists, not capitalists.
Rail against the liberal ideologues who strive to pervert freedoms with license and diminish values.
Why can't ISPs and software producers be litigated for failing reasonable and prudent practices in producing secure code?

"Why can't ISPs and software producers be litigated for failing reasonable and prudent practices in producing secure code?"

Firstly economic: Because it's not economically viable. After all we can't interfere with the economy can we? The investment required to develop stuff to the (military) standards you allude to doesn't provide enough margin or competitiveness in a global market. If it was enforced in the US people would switch provider (it's a free market after all) and these companies would relocate where they didn't have to do it.

Secondly ethical: There are legitimate freedoms at risk here! We now have European Human Rights legislation to preserve the hard won freedoms and liberties of the last several decades. The current paranoia because of a sudden terrorist threat to American life and limb doesn't mean we should just pass up these rights without scrutiny! (As is happening over there by the way). In the UK we have lived with terrorism since the 1970s though it doesn't inform every aspect of our way of life.

Thirdly practical: How can you prove it? It's like trying to nail the compilers of Kazaa. After all don't the NRA claim that gun-manufacturers shouldn't be held responsible for what people do with guns? The same argument applies here.

PS, fascism, IMHO, falls into the following category -

state capitalism
Function: noun
Date: 1903
: an economic system in which private capitalism is modified by a varying degree of government ownership and control

Almost entirely missed in this article are the social issues that drive many virus writers... Anger against the industrial military complex thingy... sure, but when you look carefully its more the inability to access the wealth and opportunities that go with that very same system.

Guzman is a classic example... Originally just an ordinary guy who was unable to get a job because of the "it's not what you know it's who you know" pecking system in the Philippines... In that country you go nowhere unless you are from the right family or have the appropriate social postion. (I am married to a Philipino)

After graduating from the AMA Computer School and unable to get a job, Guzman became bored and frustrated. He lashed out at a "system" that favours the rich and privilaged; a system that in his mind denied him the well earned fruits of his labours. The ILoveYOU virus was the result... unfortunately, because of the global nature of the internet, we all paid the price.
Guzman is not to be defended... and what he did was very very wrong. But it's important to understand the root cause of his anger for there are thousands more out there just like him.

Richard
British Columbia
Canada

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Guzman was "kicked out" of the tertiary institution he was studying at. His professor refused to grade him because he created a virus (i.e. love bug) He refused to grade him because he was there to learn to create software to benefit, not malicious software. Guzman released the virus after he was kicked out of university. And no I don't have a grudge, I too am married to a Filipino (not Philipino). I know exactly how the system works there. Show me a Filipino who isn't taking backhanders etc. in their job. Rare as hens teeth. That's what the Marcos sytem of corruption created.

Who gains most financially and steering people, down a pth it WANTS them to follow ?

1. Microsoft
2. Anti-Virus companies

Personally, I think AV companies probably are not doing this...getting caught would be very bad for them.

As for Microsoft, however, they want the world to work their way - including not being able (easily at least) to download updates and fixes without applying them to the server/pc you are working from etc. and US and other governments let M$ do what the heck they like.

Making certain software (e.g. IE6) difficult to patch offline means that many users are forced to get the latest OS from M$ and work their way.

If you really want to be paranoid, you could see M$ deliberately writing virus to attack their servers (which, surprise, would cope very well).

Summary:-

Virus writer Anti-capitalist ? Anti-Establishment ?....give me a break - they are what M$ and other build their empires on.

What a refreshing view from Tomhass. I'm sure 'certain' companies are capable of this & much worse in order to keep control. Let's face it... when money & power are the rewards, the game has no rules.

Which came first..the virus, or the anti-virus program?

I personally think that it's the Anti-Virus companies that put out these viruses. What would McAfee or Norton be without the likes of viruses?

The Law says that parents are responsible for their little darlings until they are 18 or 21 if still a student. [In New York Anyway] Where is the accountability here? Let's not make a better crook of these kids because their parents did not parent, let's get the reform schools a cranking again. A lot of hits I get are from phantom ip addresses that corporations own and are not currently using. Let's freeze this up / lock this hole. How about rewriting some of the rules to verify authenticity of addresses to include codes known only by the author/owner, however registered, wrong verify, dead letter. Yup, it will slow things down, however not as slow as some of these viruses cause.

I've had parents call me asking for help installing "babysitter" software to protect their 13 years olds from porn. They never imagine what other mischief the little darling might be getting into after school. What's more, the kid probably disables the software 15 minutes after Mom leaves the room.

Judges have a hard time holding parents responsible for spreading viruses because they can't keep track of what their own kids are doing online....it's hard to hold someone responsible for something they don't even understand.


I've knows parents who had their online accounts disabled by their ISP because the kid was sending spam out using their own account. Marketers pay people to send spam and they prey on kids to do the bulk of this work for them. A lot of kids don't seem to really understand that they are committing a crime until Mom and Dad explain it to them and threaten to break their fingers (and take the computer away) if they ever do it again.

I think the solution is education. Education of the "script kiddies" that are actually committing crimes - it's not a prank, it's not mischief, it's a crime. And education of their parents so that their parents understand what kind of trouble their kids can get into online aside from the porn they know about.

Everytime I read an article about Virus Writers, Hackers, Spammers and or other Data Thugs it seems that everyone wants to a CHILD's Face on the Perpetrator, knowing full well that the level of sophistication these buggers use and employ are far from being childlike. How much online time would it take to create, test, and implement disaster? It also seems we never quite want to hit the exact but obvious reasons "It is and has ALWAYS been ALL ABOUT THE MONEY, a simple test just open up your email box and check how many messages suggest get rich quick schemes, read someone else's password, the happy love drugs, or you need life insurance or This software will provide 100% security for a modest fee. Right now the simple truth, we license use of every dangerous item except for the Personal Computer and or it's connectivity, but blame our kids when something not understood goes wrong. We make money preventing it or make money creating it, and make money fixing it.

I am a student of Computer Security Systems, And i would want to know what are my chances of being employed as a computer forensic envestigator? Within my program we take computer Forensics I,II, and III classes. We will also be taking pcyborspace and spianage. The entire Program concists of a Bachelorate Degree in Sicurity Systems.

"What are my chances of being employed as a computer forensic envestigator?" -- pretty close to zilch; the world isn't kind to illiterate schemers.

I am a student of Computer Security Systems, And i would want to know what are my chances of being employed as a computer forensic envestigator? Within my program we take computer Forensics I,II, and III classes. We will also be taking pcyborspace and spianage. The entire Program concists of a Bachelorate Degree in Sicurity Systems.

Okay . . . so, I'm not real savvy about some of this stuff. How do you find a hacker chat? and then, how do you get in without other chatters figuring out you're an eavesdropper?

That's nothing... recently a convicted child molester was released on parole after serving little over 1 year. This man had multiple offenses, had served time previously for other offenses (all child sex abuse crimes), while the same parole board denied another man who had served over 5 years for a minor drug offense (he was small time pot dealer). The moral here? Go ahead and abuse all the kids you want or take a few hundred grand from the school system but don't take a few dollars away from Big Business! You'll pay.

I see stuff like that all the time in the papers. You see someone caught with a roach clip and they spend the next six years in the slammer - but then you see a previously convicted gang member arrested and convicted of manslaughter and is out of prison in less than 2 years.

The kind of person who creates such disruption differs in age, income, location, social/peer interaction, educational level, likes, dislikes and communication style, according to Sarah Gordon renowned expert in computer viruses and security technology.

Simple or complicated and who wrote it are just a few known factors.

Though I agree with the author on many points, his statement about regulation is thoughtless and incredibly lazy-minded.

He said that government regulations usually worsen situations where people are cheated and otherwise victimized.

This belief is a misperception stimulated by two things: 1) the notorious regulations are the ones that receive the most press, and 2) we are taught (at least, in the U.S.) that we are free to dream up and do just about anything we want, as long as we don't break too many of the Ten Commandments too often.

A quick review of a few randomly-chosen government regulations is warranted here. You'll find that, like city building codes, most of these "bad cures" are actually practical, attempting to protect us from damage inflicted upon each other by the results of our own bad planning, lack of concern for our neighbors and outright greed.

Lastly, anyone who complains about our terrible regulatory environment is wasting good time and energy which would be much better spent improving the poorly-written laws in question.

It's a free country; stop whining and make it freer.

... is a universal "sunset law". All laws, regulations, other rules, and jobs and agencies created or enacted by any government body or official should have a mandatory expiration date. Probably ten years for anything directly concerned with raising money or creating new government jobs, twenty years for everything else. The legislators, regulators, and initiative drafters are free to choose shorter expirations in order to garner more support for their positions. It's incredibly difficult to repeal a law, and much harder for a regulation, even really stupid ones. It requires more work than passing it in the first place. Getting rid of a government department that outlived its (arguable) usefulness sometime during the Great Depression is even harder. We'll still be taking off our shoes in airports fifty years after the last airliner hijacking attempt is foiled by advanced technology, armed pilots, and fed-up passengers. And we'll still be funding the Department of Homeland Security when all they can find to do is send Mexican farmers back home to farms that went out of business due to import/export regulations that should have expired long ago.

It's real simple. A little bit of calculations and a virus attack costs, Oh 80 Mil. I can't verify those numbers any more than those who create them. No one ever tries to verify the intangibles. Who had a coronary, or an auto accident, or who lost a job or helped a terrorist by loosing a virus on the net.

The judicial system including the lawmakers are sitting on their asses while real crime is being perpetrated. Either they are incompetent, ignorant or shirking their duties. If a 16 year old pointed a gun at a crowd and pulled the trigger, it would be easy enough to sentence the kid to many years of rehab or death. But if the kid costs big bucks and untold injury to that same crowd with a computer he gets a slap on the wrist.

It?s simple, our elected officials are not doing enough to make this type of behavior a serious offence with serious consequences.

Start earning your pay or step aside and allow someone that is competent do your job!

Sorry - who said elected officials were competent. They and the judicial system (justice system for you US citizens) are that far removed from the real world that they fail to comprehend actual damages and effects on normal people & small businesses caused by hackers, virus writers, script kiddies, etc. They don't have to do the backups, restores, "sorry, I can't recover your data", etc that the rest of us face.

Until it happens to them nothing will really change. Spam laws are now being formulated by many countries - Australia leading the push - but only because the politicians mail boxes are overflowing with spam.

Think of who are the biggest 'ID10T' users in any organization...they are usually (not exclusively, though) the older crowd who grew up learning math on a slide rule, and think 'CPU' is something a sailor gets in Thailand.

Look at the Executive, Legislative and Judicial branch of the US governement sometime, and who do you see...geriatrics and latter day baby boomers. Their experiences in life are valuable in most roles, but when it comes to legislating new technology, they severely lag.

Hard for people to legislate what they don't understand. This is why laws against hacking and other PC crimes are relatively weak...tantamount to your parents saying 'Don't do it because I said so'. That always worked!!

It seems that most of these people who are able to circumvent the legal system often get hired by the government that prosecuted them. Look at the real life story of "Catch Me If You Can." Yes he improved the system but was released after a short period of time. Most of us struggle to make ends meet while these few perform illegal acts then get hired by the government with all of its perks and benefits. It has been long known that criminals have more rights than the rest of us and now also have the jobs!!!!

Thru our local contingency planners association I have worked with the local government agencies in our community (including the local FBI office). Most of them have very little or antiquated equipment and most have no or training in the area of virus detection or eradication, so when a virus is out there they are really unable to fight back. I believe it is up to the software manufactures to create a product that protects users- not just one that makes them money. Software is becoming like the phone company- they lock you in with promises, then say oops when you crash.

In the book, "Catch Me If You Can," the author says he spent several years in US prisons.

What is intriguing is his comments on the six months he spent in French prison - solitary confinement, no clothing, no bedding, an overflowing bucket for waste, bread and water, etc. Was that an accurate description of French prisons? Would that kind of treatment in this country have any effect on the crime rate?

VERY LITTLE ATTENTION was given by the MASS MEDIA to the many super bright people of our time as;
"The Galileo spacecraft's 14-year odyssey came to an end on Sunday, Sept. 21, when the spacecraft passed into Jupiter's shadow then disintegrated in the planet's dense atmosphere at 11:57 a.m. Pacific Daylight Time"

VERY LITTLE 'home/end user' software is SOLD at Wal-Mart to "make use" of the TRUE BRIGHTNESS of advancing minds.

To glamorize the WEAK-MINDED script kitties that are WORMING their way into out homes and schools and work place is a waste of the media.

Our MEDIA grabs MURDER & CHAOS on the front-page while many of our GREAT MINDS drift off into space... (literally)

All media has always been that way. That is why I always read the Sports section first; it is the only area of the newspaper where more than half is dedicated to accomplishments rather than atrocities.

Your post seems to deviate from the discussion and express a maligned reasoning to justify the proliferation of viruses etc due if I interpret correctly the lack of oportunity to express personal yet unrecognised genius except by destructive rather than constructive expression.

One can have all the genius and expertise in the world but without persistence and application into appropriate and socially acceptable directions the result is frustration and maybe consequentially dissaffection and resentment.

At the end of the day it is not the geniuses the keep the wheels a turning, it is the ordinary Joes.

I disagree with you that the previous author is deviating from the discussion. Unfortunatly, in this society, you have to do something wrong to get attention.

For example, if you build houses, you are most likely not going to receive recognition. If you burn houses down, you are likely to get on the nightly news.

Another example, a brilliant doctor can bring a baby into this world that had no chance of surviving, even a year ago. This doctor probably will not receive any recognition. Contrast that to someone who goes and murders a group of kids. Guess who gets the recognition.

You are right, its the ordinary Joes that keep the wheels turning, but... Who really wants to be an ordinary Joe?

It has been suggested here and elsewhere that these new worms are trojans that are a kind of "advance wave" or preparatory attack to set the stage for something bigger.

Think about it - potentially millions of home computers setting there being used, not for stealing their processing power, or something "benign" like that, but to be ready to help deliver a massive cyber-attack on our critical electronic infrastructure at a predetermined time. Or at the very least, they may have been used to gather information on the addresses of the computers and servers that are a part of the critical infrastructure, and the attack will be launched from elsewhere in cyberspace, using the information gathered.

There has been speculation that the Northeast blackout (and others - UK, and just recently Denmark and Sweden) was a test event to see how vulnerable such systems are. The last word on that was, I believe, human error. Not only are systems vulnerable in a physical sense, but they are vulnerable in a "soft" sense - ie, humans are vulnerable to bribery and/or blackmail. No firewall is going to stop that from happening.

America has many enemies - those who would want to see our economy crippled and us removed from the world scene for a while - or for good. An attack on our critical electronic infrastructure (banks and financial institutions, stock market, industry, etc) could/would be devastating.

A good followup article to this one would be one that asks what is being done about this threat, or is there anything that CAN be done?

lol - Funnily enough I don't think you are being ironic!

Americans are always paranoid about big conspiracies to topple their economic and military hegemony, but how did you extrapolate these theories from an article about script-kiddies?

The whole point is that these guys are usually disaffected geeky Western youths with too much time and not enough girl-action on their hands. OK the damage totals sound impressive but they're very distributed and who puts these figures together anyway, and how? I think the sentences dished out in the UK have been fair and proportional to the crime. Robbers and muggers get less sometimes!

White-collar (insider) crime is probably the biggest threat to the integrity of major IS but fraud has always been around, as has espionage. The nature of cyberspace and distributed networks and databases probably makes information and money, etc MORE secure than it ever was, not the other way around.

As for power cut conspiracies and the like just stay away from internet chat-rooms and 'documentaries' on channel 5 and you'll get over it.

M$ writing the viruses?

Nope not gonna happen. The kiddies are the culprits. There is too much glamour in their own little circles. Go sit quietly in a hacker chat room sometime and look at what goes back and forth. These guys are frighteningly amazing. And, sadly, this is only going to get worse.

There is another theory that has some validity - there are a multitude of dot-commers out of work, having promoted to the market place by activities of criminals like the high management of Enron, Dynegy and Arthur Andersen. These people could well be considering that a virus that is well enough spread would eventually reap a certain degree of payback to those who are to blame for their current unemployed status...

Now, as to getting the Feds involved. There is a rule of thumb here that should never be forgotten - once a law is written and passed, it is NEVER "unpassed" so to speak. In the US we still have laws (albeit unenforced) against spitting in public in some locales. So, enter the Feds...now we have the typical bureaucratic SNAFUs on a consistent basis, we have more than our share of attempts to tax and regulate.

Yes, I agree 150% that SPAM is a massive problem - as a SysAdmin, I have to deal with a ton of it. But I certainly don't want the Feds to help me. I would much rather pay for a well-written enterprise level software package that helps me keep up with it.

We didn't ask the Feds to get involved with securing our networks - we all instituted firewalls and additional security measures and we continually update and upgrade.

It's a fact, technology won't remain static, so our counter measures to malicious users of technology cannot remain static.

When you have lower than average salaried government workers who get an average of 5 additional holidays per year than the average public sector working stiff, and who are pretty much guaranteed continuous employment, you are not going to get a counter measure mechanism that keeps pace with the changes.

There is only one governmental agency that tries to keep a step ahead of the US general public and that's the IRS. How long before they would want a piece of this internet action....?

"There is a rule of thumb here that should never be forgotten - once a law is written and passed, it is NEVER "unpassed" so to speak."

Ever hear of Alcohol Prohibition? It was a stupid law passed in the US and then repealed. Laws are repealed when enough pressure is applied against the governmental bodies responsible for the original laws.

Many people stupidly define "terrorism" as a course of action designed to evoke terror, such as the WTC/Pentagon attack or releasing Sarin in the Tokyo subway. Finally some people are realizing that "terrorism" is ANY action that causes alarm, or even inconvenience, to the American public.
However, forcing companies to act in any way not due to market forces, such as making them release software (especially operating systems) that is secure by default is intrinsically un-American and anti-Free Enterprise. Therefore, I say we get a petition going to force the DHS to immediately implement Carnivore or its successor (since the public knows about Carnivore that the NSA must have something even better by now), a keylogging program that can analyze user activity for undesirable behavior on all computers in the USA, and stateful inspection of all packets coming into the country. The only people that would object are either pro-alQueda\Taliban\Communist, and that would tell us whom we need to watch particularly closely.

Two weeks ago I wrote a letter to a muslim newspaper, very derogatory to the radical, hate mongering muslim terrorist. Now I get about 150 emails daily from all over the world which contain the W32 virus - these are addressed to me only so it appears all the radical, idiots also own computers ... I commended the peace-loving, law abiding Muslims so I am sure the mails come from the radical faction. They are forwarded to the respective ISP's since they are quarantined by NAV and my ISP. Carnivore will eventually be the norm.

...you live in cloud cuckoo land!

'"terrorism" is ANY action that causes alarm, or even inconvenience, to the American public'

But riding roughshod over international conventions, swamping the world with munitions and pollution, pre-emptively deposing rulers of sovereign nations by force and killing 13,000 foreign nationals in the process is 'homeland defence' or some other daft euphemism? Interesting theory you muppet.

And I suppose it's these radical muslims and communists (who have so much in common right? - WRONG!) who are threatening your liberty through ETerrorism? WRONG! You think all the hard-won freedoms and rights of the last several decades will be preserved by handing total control of your lives over to the feds? WRONG!

Pull your head whence it has become lodged and take a look around.

i like the cut of your jib Olip74, great to read.

BrainDeadCowboyTrash was too long for an alias

olip74, you said "Pull your head whence it has become lodged and take a look around."

Yes, please do.

I agree that the Feds are probably the last people I'd want to hand this problem over to. One of my questions was - is there anything that CAN be done? I say probably not.

Before you go blathering about someone who suggests terrorists and/or other enemies of the US being a kook or an ostrich with their head in the sand, please take some time to do a little research rather than repeating the standard mantra "script kiddies did this - nothing to see - please move along...."

First of all (and I am usually skeptical of things put out by PBS, 20/20, etc - they tend to be "fear-mongers", as I'm sure you'd label me), please check out the following online program:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cyberwar/view/

After cutting all the "drama" out, there are some real issues this program addresses regarding the weaknesses in our electronic infrastructure.

Someone explain to me the interest in computers groups like Al Qaida have. Oh yeah, I'm sure it's nothing more than to corrupt themselves with the latest Western decadence found in game programs because they've been so deprived of the "fun stuff" by living in a suppressive regime.

You don't really seem to grasp how fragile our way of life has become due to that small piece of matter called the electron. Not that I'm trying to be a Luddite here - I think we have done much good in the world because of technology. But there are inherent weaknesses that are a part of the nature of a technological infrastructure that could (and will, in my opinion) be used against us.

And this quote of yours:

"And I suppose it's these radical muslims and communists (who have so much in common right? - WRONG!) who are threatening your liberty through ETerrorism? WRONG!"

You are right, but not for the reasons you think. Of course terrorists (or any other enemies we may have - and do not pretend there are none) do not want to "take away our freedoms." They want to destroy us. Please read this:

http://www.financialsense.com/stormwatch/geo/pastanalysis/2003/1001.html

This is not black-helicopter conspiracy nut stuff - I've been there, done that, and have rejected it. These are real threats to you and I as Americans. And while Muslim extremists and Communists may not have the same ideology, they do have some things in common, and Communist states have been very supportive in the training of terrorists, Muslim or otherwise. Perhaps not in word, but in deed.

We need to get past the cultural myth that it falls in the realm of conspiracy theories to suggest that someone (and not just a handful of extremists, but the leadership of entire countries hostile to the West) may want to attack America, not just to take our freedoms away, but to eliminate us from the face of the earth.