Discussion on:

Don't submit a typical IT pro's resume

Followup, Followup, Followup

And keep following up until they let you know they have made a decision.

Just be careful with the follow-ups. If you apply through a website that says "no phone calls please", and you call even just once a week to find out how things are moving along with the position, you can easily annoy the very folks you're looking to impress. Some companies are MUCH more responsive through email - it depends on the personality type of the person responsible for hiring.

And of course, right now, while there are so many people out of work, it's easy for a potential employer to write you off for annoying them. Unfortunately, it is an employer's market right now... but with some companies (ie: those that are employers of choice), it will always be an employer's market, so pay attention to the signs!

Jill

Jill, I use to agree to that concept but not anymore. You've got to sell yourself becasue if you don't, someone else will sell themself and get the job! Jill, make yourself known and you will get responses back.

Craig Williams
wcraig72@yahoo.com

If it's a Recruiter and the say "No phone calls please", you can pretty much take their word for it. Recruiters don't want to talk to any applicant unless they decide they want to submit you to the client.

If it's HR though, by all means, follow up early and often.

I say follow up, but don't make it sound like a follow up. Phone them to ask some intelligent questions about the position you are applying for. If you ask a question that HR cannot answer, they might even put you through to the recruiter. Then you have a chance your name will stick. (But don't make the questions too dumb!

Kevin Dorrell, Luxembourg.

I have been unable to open this link to view the topic.

http://www.techrepublic.com/article.jhtml?id=r00720030131KXD01.htm

Anyone else with the same prob ???

Harry

I have a few issues with this article:
1. The original resume indicates that I am a miracle worker. Do you want a miracle worker in your company, or not? I was not in the executive committee which researched how this would save money or what theissues were. I was the programmer and was told to work miracles which I did. I don't know how much it saved the company or even if it did. I'm a programmer, not a manager.
2. We are supposed to send our resume, and then call them, and then sendthem postal mail, and then camp out by their car in the parking lot? How about we send our resume and see if they know how to do their jobs and call us back? Are these people incompetent? Why do we need to babysit them????
3. I got into information technology 20 years ago because I thought I would always be in demand and would get the big bucks. Apparently network administrators and programmers are no longer needed. I'm getting into real estate. It's obvious from my experiences that thecomputers have gotten so good that networks and workstations no longer need administrators. The hell with IT! Corporate America no longer needs us and it's time to move on.

It is time to change the field.
I am in the same situation with over 20 yrs in IT business having my own consulting company for 20 yrs. got in big trouble with investments and started to work for a oil company for 3 yrs.
Now I am looking that I amout of work and checking the market every day without good results.
Looks like I have already changed the field from Business owner to IT Analyst and now to.....IT Recruiter (or better trying to recruit myself) and no money to pay the bills.
Looking every day on the net for new openings and checking out the bill boards seeing all around me without a job. Getting depressed by the day without an escape and anxious to work.
Soon I might be like the rest of IT people out there......flipping hamburgers for minimum wage...
I need, and we all need something more and something better from this life, but getting depressed is eazy to do without money or job.....
We all need help this days, I have started praying lately, something I have not done in years....GOD HELP US ALL.

A lot of us are feeling the same way. I have more than 20 years experience in IT and the pickings have been slim lately. As a consultant, I have a well-rounded skill set. However, I've mostly worked in software/database development. This year, I'll be 50. Are there any 50 year old programmers? Yes, I too am looking in other directions.

Sems to me the long term trend is towards outsourcing. Soon companies won't have internal IT staff - just a few senior project leaders to keep things under control - the techies will work for a few major companies providing outsourcing services. I don't think this bodes well for IT people in general because suddenly the art of experimenting is lost - no more "what ifs" by companies since they're now paying for every IT transaction. I think this lack of opportunity to experiment in-house will have a long-term negative impact on technology implementations - no risks, no benefit - "minimize costs" is the mantra these days.

I've been in IT for 17 years. Currently I'm going back to school part-time at night to complete a degree in Mathematics and Physics (started 20 years ago!) - hopefully to move out of IT and into pure theoretical physics. I've lost the excitement and joy I had about IT a few years ago. With the "lets try this" attitude quickly disappearing, most of the true IT (intellectual) challenges are disappearing as well.
Let's face it - most techies enjoy the challenges, and strive to come up with stable and unique solutions to business problems. Now everything's becoming pre-packaged. The challenges are disappearing.

I am in complete agreement with you. I too have been in the IT field for 20 years. The first 10+ years was absolutely exciting, challenging, and a whole hell of a lot of fun. It didn't require all of those blasted cert's to prove yourself to management just your determination, willingness, and desire to learn and grow. Now, if you don't have a cert your chances for something new and challenging are reduced considerably, nevermind if you have the willingness, desire, and the know how to learn and expand. You have to have that cert.
Perhaps we should consolidate our knowledge and start one of those companies and once again have the fun, the excitement, and the challenge of doing those things we used to love so much???

I read everywhere about keeping your resume to 2 pages - some seem to claim even that is too long! I've always ignored this advice, and I've always won every job competition I've entered - of course I only enter those competitions where I truly meet80-90% of the requriements. So, some advice is:
1) Be realistic. Only apply for jobs where you do meet the qualifications, and can honestly say that you can do the work required. I've been on many interview panels where the interviewees meet almostNONE of the qualifications we ask for - they claim "expertise" on paper, but when asked questions, cannot provide reasonable, knowledgeable answers.
2) I say, ignore the 2 page limit advice. My resume is 6-10 pages (varies), and the comments I've received in interviews are "yours stood out" and "we could read all the details and had a clearer idea of your skill sets BEFORE requesting an interview". All the comments I received were POSITIVE. Even my friends claimed that long resumes are directed right into the trash bin. My experience says the opposite.
Let's face it, if people aren't willing to READ a long resume of someone who has the skills they're looking for, then I say it's not worth working at that company. Thoroughness in communication should not be considered a negative. Don't embellish needlessly, but make it long enough to clearly get your skill sets across. I just can't do that in 2 pages - at least not without providing a most trivial summary of experience.

Overall the article was on point. Especially the following-up part (the squeaky wheel gets the oil).

However, not every engagement or job can be tied to a dollar savings, particularly for say maintenance coding on legacy systems. But, every jobcan be elaborated with the behaviors that made you successful. For example, most IT need to interact with customers of some type handling issues, resolving problems. Explaining how one stayed proactive and productive also shows a value-add to a prospective employer.

I think the biggest challenge that IT face is getting past the lines of separation from the people doing the hiring, and the people scrutinizing the resume. I have had two different recruiters look at the exact same resume, and one told me I had too much management experience on it, they would not be able to place me in a non-management position because of how much was demonstrated on my resume. The very same day, I was told I would not be asked to interview with a client, because my resume did not demonstrate enough management experience. The simple fact is, companies have put so much emphasis on hiring through recruiters who work with HR people, that most qualified, as well as unqualified candidates are passed over before they even speak to the hiring managers. The model worked when we were over capacity during the boom, but hiring managers need to wake up during this time. They need to get personally involved in the screening processes early, there are a lot of talented people that are passing through your fingertips every day, because someone at an IT recruiting firm doesn't know the difference between Client Server, and C/S, or some other foolishness. When I was in an interview recently, the manager told me bluntly, Ionly got the interview because he read my resume on an HR managers desk, she was about to file me. When he asked why, she said "He does not have experience in Client Server development, he has only done N-tier, and C/S development"!

Good luck out there!

Most postings by a company (as opposed to a headhunter) do not list a name and the email address gives no indication. In effect, you are sending your resume into a black hole. If the post does not specify "No phone calls, please" a call to the company HR department often solicits a blind voicemail message (unless you know the recruiter's name). Then again, even if you know their name, they rarely pick up in person so you end up leaving another unanswered voicemail.
Any suggestions?

I totally agree with you! HR has hurt me in may ways in not getting my resume in front of the hiring manager or at least someone with a technical background. I have discovered a way around HR though and it's quite funny.

As well, good luck.

Craig Williams
wcraig72@yahoo.com

I am currently looking for a job in computers, IT, etc., and I was wondering what your secret was for getting around HR. I used to be in PR, and it was impossible to get around the HR people.

I don't want to give out the secret becasue to tell you the truth, it has been so successful with me that I've thought about marketing it. I'll give you an example though.

I've been in telecommunications for 10+ years and got laid off in 6.01 and a friend helped me get a job in Texas and I had to quit that so I could be home with my family in North Carolina. I got discouraged just like you guys; e-mailing resumes in and never get a response and move on to the next application. One day, I came up with an idea and applied that idea to three companies and low and behold, all three contacted me and now I have a job. I'm starting next Monday after my drug test.

Let me know.

Craig Williams
wcraig72@yahoo.com

This is more difficult these days with job descriptions the way they are, but nevertheless, it's still possible. Get the name of the employer and the location. Go to the phone book and find any entry for that particular company. It's best to find a local # as opposed to a toll free. Your job is to talk to a live person. Once talking to a live person, ask questions about the job position. Within 3 transfers you should be talking to the department in which the position is located. Now the hard part. You need to impress and empathize with your future coworkers. Find a niche and stick with it. If you feel you have made a good impression, get the supervisors name and number. See if your new found friend will put in a good word for you. Get yournew buddy's email address and forward your resume and cover letter. Have your buddy forward it in turn to the supervisor. Chances are the supervisor will pay close attention to your resume because it came from his employee. I?m not guaranteeing thiswill get you hired, but it's much better than submitting your resume to some HR idiot whose only concern is finding his next job.

90% of the time I've followed up via phone or email, I get a (usually curt) reply of "we *said* we will contact you if your skills match our needs."

Great... just irritated another one.

I found I was confused by the mix of important, valuable skills and trivialities. Why would anybody with such obviously remarkable technical and teaching skills list such things as HTML and Javascript?

I can see HR people not knowing what to do with this sort of resume and taking the easy way out and discarding it.

While I agree with your observation about the inconsistency, I respectfully disagree with your conclusion.

These days an applicant must play the game. i.e. create a resume that is both appealing to human readers, (HR screeners), as well as automated resume scanners which search for buzz words. Quite a challenge for technical professionals!

"saving dollars" these words are useful for IT Manager kinda biggy posts but what about simple one like network administrator/computer technicians (for small companies) they dont directly responsible for any kind of savings..

Keep analyzing your resume and cover letter, you'll find areas to improve upon and find where you can place numbers.

For $15 I will inform how to get around HR. Contact me at the following:

Craig Williams
resumehelps@yahoo.com

I think I have a wonderul cover letter, resume, and ref. page and I do get bites off of it but there is one key factor that is not being discussed that I think is the main factor these days.......it's not what you know but who you know. This is sadbut I too didn't want to agree with it. It took me 10+ plus years to finally say that this idea is very much important to keep in mind.

Most of the positions that I have had interviews with was becasue I knew someone there. I too have discovered tricks to get my information in front of the hiring manager and it works everytime. I've had some to call me pushy but I have received a response back everytime.

Craig Williams
wcraig72@yahoo.com

If you are looking for work, don't be discouraged if you don't find anything right away, it's a tough market for IT. Here's what I've learned:

1.) It's not always what, but WHO you know
Some of the best jobs I've had, or people who know me have had, have been obtained through referral. Indeed, a company like Dell only hires through referrals and many companies give preferences to referrals (and a bonus to referrers).

2.) Sometimes it's just the luck of the draw
I've had some greatjobs just by being in the right place at the right time. It just happened one day that a temp agency called me out of the blue (and I never filled out a formal application with them) for a great job. I just happened to be the one home when they called.

3.) Sometimes you need to broaden your skills.
Managers would rather not have to hire a network support technician, programmer analyst, web developer, database administrator and techical support personnel if they can get one person capableof doing it all. Is it possible? Absolutely. Remember that you don't have to know everything, just know more than your boss. I was hired where I'm at now not because I'm A+ certified, or understand networks, but because I'm the only one he interviewed that understood VB and VBScript.

4.) Lastly, sometimes you have to simply a resume
The worst excuse I've ever heard from an HR person was "You are over-qualified for this position." What they mean is, you are so good, they are afraid of another company picking you up in three months with a better salary. Unfortunately, if that was true, we'd already be working for the other company.

Remember that employers want long-term employees. That's why they like Bachelor's degrees. The education itself is a mute point, the GPA shows how well you can learn,the diploma shows you can commit for four years (or more).

The most effective format that I have personally found is one that is more brief but provides information that is compelling to the person reading it (often someone who is not that technical). This is just a guideline or rule of thumb, but is something that has been successful for me and friends that I've helped write resumes for.

For every job I will try to list 3 - 5 bullet points. For each point you describe your role, your responsibilites, and your results in that role. The results are more often than not non-financial in nature.

Titles can be misleading, but a description of a specific role is not. Listing your responsibilities adds credibility and depth. Being able to discuss positive results demonstrates several things - all of them good.

As a hiring manager I am generally less interested in a standard "career objectives" paragraph because often they are written to appeal to a specific job, rather than describing what somebody really wants to do. I am not impressed by titles because they often do not reflect the reality of what somebody did. I am also probably not going to take the time to read a 7 page resume.

But, catch my interest in one or two places and I will spend more time reading the entire resume (this is where the 3 - 5 bullet points help). Make it compelling (and always truthful) and you will probably get at least a phone interview. Based on other IT managers I know (from department level to CIO level people) that seems to be a fairly typical sentiment. The person reading the resume is busy and you only have a minute or two to engage them.

So, give it a shot. An honest representation of a good potential employee in a quick and easy format (that is also well organized and freeof typos) can only help.

I noticed that the focus on the resumes are for experienced individuals looking for a job. What about resumes from fresh graduates with no working experience in the industry? How are we to produce an effective resume that will catch the attention ofthe hiring manager, or at least get through HR.

I've just graduated from my studies in computing, and I've had my interests in networking, particularly on Cisco products. However, I've sent out a number of resumes to various firms and there's been no phone calls till now.

Is there any way for us fresh graduates, who have great enthusiasm in getting a position that we'd like to venture into, without any prior working experience? I am certified under the CCNA and CCDA program, but even withthose certifications and some hands-on exposure with configuring routers and switches, there's still no phone calls.

What should I do?

You hit it right on the problem with most resumes. People tend to list their duties so that employer's can view just how much they had on their plates. However, what employer's are looking for are "Results Driven Resumes".

Thanks for the wake-up call.

How can you get a resume looked at seriously
if you are beyond the age range they want?

Friend attended a job fair of a local defense
contractor. He overheard two company reps talking
about all the "old people" in attendance and that
none ofthem would be hired.

My expeience is that being over 50 is the easiest
way to be excluded/ignored regardless of qualifications and "successes".

In today's market, the age cutoff is more like 40.

All the helpful suggestions are useless fodder that has little impact. The majority of the discussion comments attest to that fact.

Here's the typical workweek of an out of work IT professional:

One day the mid-career IT professional out of work believes the job market is rotten.

Next day the IT professional believes there are plenty of jobs, just that the resume is "wrong".

Day 3, it's all the HR and recruiters coming between you and the hiring manager.

Day 4, it's your interview skills, they stink, buy this idea to freshen them up.

Finally, on Friday, we discover the problem is that we are not networking enough. Because ANYONE can get a job, otherwise they are LAZY....

Darwin was right after all.

Nowadays employers and job shops have no accountability. They remain anonymous, give no company name, no industry, incomplete job duties, ask for desired wage, or salary history etc.

It is dog eat dog all the way down to the bottom. ALL the time, energy, effort, uncertainty, courtesy is being externalized to the applicant (IT professional) instead of the employer/job shop recruiter.

These companies are having hard times, and they are riding on our backs.

Sad reality of this business - Either resign yourself to useless begging, or else move to India/China where the IT jobs are going. The HP, IBM people really do not give a fig about old overpaid Americans anymore.

Discrimination, I'm shocked anyone in America would suggest companies in our land of the brave would even go there. But let me be real here, the first thing on the guy's resume is his name. If the name was John Smith I'm sure his phone would ring more but after 911 the bigots aren't looking for anyone with a arabic or muslim name, sorry but that's a fact. Ditto for Zhao too and for anyone over 40 I might add. So anything you can do to get around those issues the more your phone will ring. I know I'll be castigated to all high hell but whatever, the truth hurts. And just a personal aside, I face it everytime I go in for an interview, my name is standard white bread but I'm a 40+ hanidcapped african american male, when I go in they looked stupified when they note that and even more stupid when they detect I'm handicapped but whatever. I'd rather not work for bigots anyway.
Good luck Omar, Zhao and the over 40 crowd.

brother Bill G.?

Unfortunately, the young will continue to find the rest of us "less useful" until they become one of us, then they will think it's as unrealistic as we do.

Intelligent employers will consider age less important than experience and the ability to stay on top of the changes in the field.

Like you said, just change the name to a more american one and you will be amazed at the results.

I ran the experiment myself and within a week, I received emails for interviews. Unfortunately, when they found out the real name, I was given the usual answer: overqualified.

Any way, keep on trying

Cochise? Geronimo... no, that's Spanish. Pocahontas? Tecumseh? Montezuma?