Discussion on:

What qualifications are a useful measure of competence

The industry is awash now with qualifications costing a fortune to gain - many in boot-camp guaranteed pass training centres. Meanwhile there are thousands of qualified and very experienced people overlooked because they have all the practical skills and experience without the paperwork to "prove" it. What do you think counts most? Practical and proven skills or in-depth knowledge? What qualifications do you find give the best measure of a persons abilities?

The training whether it is self taught or class room - then the Experience to apply that training. The paper you are going to get - thousands that have the paper and don't know how to even wipe their butt with it...

The days of past - Paper CNE's - ECNE's - Then it hit the Microsoft world - Paper - had the Cert - but couldn't do a thing with it. "We didn't learn that in class!"

Experience most of the time out wieghts the training - and all the time outweights any paper.

Neither experience or training will do you any good unless the person can get along with other people. You managers out there need to take a course in behavioral assessment like the C.A.R.E or D.I.S.C behavioral profile. With a little practice you will be able to spot an asset from a "dud". I think the criteia is
1) Behavior
2) Experience
3) Maturity
4) Dependability
5) Formal Training

Behavior is often overlooked, but it is the most essential component when building a team. People have to the able to work together as a team. Training can be done later, experience comes in time along with maturity, but you will find it very difficult to change behavior.

...the challenge is that IT managers and recruiters tend to be more comfortable with ultimately focusing the "technical" competencies--whatever that means. Unfortunately, behavioral skills, which includes the ability to get along with diverse people with diverse interests and politics and the ability to inspire people is essential. For example, when you take a look at job descriptions posted and then interview, most of us notice a disturbing trend--the technical skills tend to trump the behavioral criteria. And unfortunately, that is why a large majority of these hires "don't work out" and yet the criteria and the emphasis on what is learned tends not to change. So, the solution is to focus on different criteria up-front in the recruiting process combined with the ability to "apply" technical skills in real-life settings using scenarios to evaluate how someone can respond. The criteria outlined above is absolutely correct. Cheers!

I see this trend everywhere now. Completely charming people come in the door, well versed in interview techniques (there must be a cert somewhere for that too), and nobody seems to notice much less care that the applicant is really just a bag of wind- all talk, no action.
You end up having to hire, and then fire a really pleasant but ultimately incompetant person, and you become the bad guy.

Apparently the days of I.T, people being brilliant but quirky are over. In all areas of employment we now tend to prefer milktoast personalities with skills to match. "Oh, he couldn't fix it but he was so pleasant!"

Its all about spin anymore isn't it. I look for 'dirt under the fingernails', personally. I'm not impressed with those ten dollar words memorized in boot camp. I'll hire the intuitive tech who can fix it even when he doesn't know what its called.

-D

A few days back i asked some friends here that i didnt complete my graduation since i need to work and since i was working i cant go to college and get degree i got experience instead and im skillfull without certificates but i can still get the cert. but i cant go to collage and get degree so some one will still hire me as system admin or some relavant post if i really knew the work.
dogdaze@ulster.net you rockz man.

Maturity is useful too. So is the ability to communicate clearly and effectively, regardless of the audience. Realise that, wherever you work, everyone outside the company sees you *AS* the company - if you aren't a good representative of the company, then you'll be looking for a new job.

i cant read ure wurdz there4 i wont

it's a lot harder though. Essentially you need to find a back door, the pavement admirals in HR will rarely let you in the front one.
Presentation and attitude is the key, and it all depends on how much of what experience gained where

Someone who see's it my way. I know how to do it and I don't buy into all that damn technical jargon. I know how to fix it when it breaks and that is what is important.

...fixing something isn't the most important thing in every situation. If you're going to be surrounded by nothing but technical people, and report to nobody but technical people - then it's probably OK.

But

Most people, as far as I know, tend to work with non-technical people as well. I've had to hire a few people in the past, and these are my criteria:

1. Ability & desire to learn new things
2. Personality - can he/she get along with us
3. Sufficient technical skill that I won't have to babysit.

I think of it like hiring a Straight-A student: Don't. Hire someone who will fit in well, and can pick up the missing skills fast.

Maybe in your profession you could use your 123 criteria. If you are telling me that you are going to roll out 240,000 seats and you are going to use your criteria (1.2.3) then when could one expect to see the first seats come on-line. Every vendor and his brother/sister is coming out with new certifications and it is not the IT folks that want to have to pay for them. Business requires them just like BS/MS/Phd. IT certifications expire and we have to renew them at a cost both in time and money. Now you tell me why someone with a BS from 1980/90 something would have a leg up on an IT professional that has been working in this field. What other professions recruit personnel without technical qualifications because they simply have a degree?

How else would you explain a degree in media studies. Academic qualifications in IT don't expire as fast as certs, but eventually they can become less relevant. After all us old chaps who learnt how to program, now get supplanted by people who are competent with a mouse. What's really strange is how someone can decide that a carpenter is incapable of assembling a flat-pack wardrobe because they haven't got a certification for the use of a 4 millimeter allen key.

I agree with your criteria, but most companies do not think like you. Most companies will hire on the criteria of grade point average. I have heard, where companies have went to a college to recruit graduating students, pick the guy or gal that had 4.0 GPA. Then hire the person figuring that they are going to be an asset to that company, until that person got into situation that was not a text book problem, when it got hot they walked. Now had that same company had hired say, an average student (Low "B"'s, High "C"'s) chances are they would have stayed and seen the problem through. Why? Because when one has to do multiple things, like work and go to school they tend to be problem solvers, troubleshooters. And more then anything else, IT is a business that has to solve problems for their company or clients. I believe that experience and education go hand in hand, but the balance should be on the side of experience. Certification I believe is a scam in a lot of cases to milk money from people into a corporate institution. Case in point, many, many moons ago I had a person with an MBA (she found there wasn't very much work for a person with an MBA in art) ask me what I thought about going to ITT to pick up IT training (we both were at a Southfield MI, ITT, "why you should give your money to ITT seminar", it was about 1981, I went there because CETA sent me there for possible schooling). Personally, I told her that she should save her money at the time and go a Community College and pick up whatever certification or Associates in a computer program. Would have taken her just as long and it would be cheaper. But I digress I was only a high school graduate at the time.

I started my business in 1982 selling and fixing VIC20's and didn't have a clue about PC's and, over the years built up my business employing 7.
I only hired those who were prepared to "get a little dirt on their hands and have an open mind" and who could explain their actions in "Plain English" not IT jargon, at the same time getting the job done. Some have now gone on to their own businesses and I now operate successfully as a "one man band".
I have yet to come across anyone ... in any industry ... with a a string of alphabets after their name who have turned out to be nothing more than incompetent megalomaniacs.
ChrisTOTG, has got it right.

Most of the posts on this subject say that experience rules. In my experience, I have to say that experience counts for alot, the more varied the better. However, you cannot say that certs are useless, or just the product of an egomaniacal personality (Hitler was a megalomaniac, I would hope any of us could spot one of those shortly after they sat down for the interview). We happen to have quite a few people running around these halls w/ a string of letters after their names, me included, should they choose to answer emails that way (most don't). They all seem to be functional human beings who manage to tie their shoes each and every morning. To say, as in an earlier post someone made, that good grades are a bad thing, are you kidding me? All things being equal, you would have to be a moron to hire the person w/ lower GPA or less certs. Come on, not everyone is a paper MCSE. The certs prove to me that you are interested in the field, and have put forth effort to obtain credentials to back it up. They also show a willingness to learn (not a common trait). Certs are not a substitute for actual knowledge, you have to balance the experience and the certs.

To say; "I have yet to come across anyone ... in any industry ... with a a string of alphabets after their name who have turned out to be nothing more than incompetent megalomaniacs." just tells me you don't get out much. To make such a blanket statement like that, especially if you have 22 yrs experience as stated...

We conducted a string of interview recently, and the best prospect so far has no certs. Just the way that it is. If he were hired by us, he would have a time window in order to earn certain certifications and see a raise in salary accordingly. The certifications are one of the few ways to differentiate our company from the average computer shop.

you gotta be kidding

Maybe you need to be around the industry more. Making a living fixing pc's is pretty hard these days. And in defense of those of us who have certs. I can also say that I've never ran into any guy claming to be in this field for 20 years without anything to prove it other than fixing pc's be able to do much more than fix pc's. PC componets are cheap and easy to replace these days. When we talk about the value of certs, we're usually speaking in terms of doing more than replacing hard drives, or spending 11 hours at 100 per hour troubleshooting a hardware issue (when the client can buy a new one for 500). Explain the difference to me in OSPF routing vs RIPv2 routing. You can't put it in plain english because some of what you hear is not just "IT Jargon" sometimes it just is what it is. If you've done good fixing pc's without any cert, without any other form of education or however you have, then good for you and power to you. But to call certified professionals "incompetent megalomaniacs" is down right stupid, pointless, un-based, and evidence of your hiding in a whole the last 20 years. I wonder why your company started ages ago is still a one man band? Look at corporate web sites, and job advertisements buddy. I'd bet my next check from Microsoft, that 90% of the IT positions are asking for some type of cert. Get real, and get with the times.

Both technical chops and the ability to work with others are important. Ask the end users who they want fixing broken boxes:
1. The alpha geek who has the personality of a blunt object or sharp rock, but can fix any problem that has ever occurred in a heartbeat; or
2. The tech who might take a minute or so longer to fix the problem, but also doesn't leave his customers wondering just how a bad network connection became their fault.

I know of one case where a client asked that a certain tech not return to that site because he couldn't do the job without p_ssing people off!

Do you know how to set "it" up right the first time? If you know how to set "it" up, chances are you won't have to fix "it" as often. Come on people. If nothing else you learn something just preparing for the certs. I've got tons of certs and I can tell you that even from taking the A+, I learned something. The stuff about registers (not registry), etc. Was completely new to me.

Do you know how to set "it" up right the first time? If you know how to set "it" up, chances are you won't have to fix "it" as often. Come on people. If nothing else you learn something just preparing for the certs. I've got tons of certs and I can tell you that even from taking the A+, I learned something. The stuff about registers (not registry), etc. Was completely new to me. And just because someone is good at figuring out how to fix something doesn't mean they are the person for the job. Why would I pay someone 45 to 100 bucks per hour to sit there and "figure out" how to fix it? Why not read a book or get some certs and learn how to fix it right the first time, instead of "figure out because i'm so good with my hands" method. I've seen 10 year vets sit there and scratch their heads for hours (while pretending they knew how to figure it out) over simple group policy issues. Some of you sound as if you think it's going to hurt you to have certs.

Yes,
But are you the hiring manager or a decision maker?

Experience is everything. Certification and Academic qualifications should only ever put someone in a position to gain experience, they are not a substitute for it. Seeing as our industry is effectively about solving problems, the experience you should be judged on is what sort of problems have you solved and what class of tools you used to it. I say class of tool, the difference between say C# and Fortran is n't the syntax, it's that one's oo based and the other is not.

Dogdaze,

You mentioned the forgotten attribute that separates excellence from mediocrity: intuition.

I thought I was alone in valuing this in an employee. Nicely said...

I would totally agree I was really into computers but since I had no paper I could never get hired by anyone so I made a consulting company worked it for a year and then parlayed that into a career I mean if more people looked for aptitude as apposed to paper and fluff I know I would have had a much easier time breaking into the industry and been a lot happier.

What mold do you use for behavior. When you are hiring someone to build servers or program routers/switches or program code, you really don't have alot of time to socialize. Let me guess, you are not an IT person, but someone that would like people to walk around all day smiling while the servers go unbuilt and your stock takes a nose dive. When will the MBA's of the world realize that IT people are a different breed and we spend more time working and less time talking about it.

As a network administrator I have NO time to be a social bug because of all the routers, servers and most of all, pathetic end users that i'm trying to fix. In all honesty, I was hired to keep the company safe, up and running not to be the socail butterfly. I would take anyone who knows their work anyday over the political, social butt kisser

It sounds like you guys have your "paper", and would be pissed if someone who didn't could take your place. Possibly someone without an idea of what being social or representative of your company is might survive your job working with end users, but it would be shaky for the company. You wouldn't work for me.

My clients rely on a 'social butterfly' who also knows their job (there are loads of those to replace your type with!), it is essential, whether it is in a large or small company or individuals. All clients, both internal and external, deserve more than a grump. They deserve to be teated better than you expect to be treated yourself, because they are all customers. In the end it makes your job better.

So behavior is VERY important when looking for a service oriented employee, which you are.

The days of IT people being excused for anti-social behavior because they were a necessary evil are over.

IT people can learn to be civil to their end users and drop the arrogant attitude - just like all the other hard working, highly skilled professionals out there.

Being pleasant to your co-workers and clients isn't butt kissing or socializing at the expense of working, it's social courtesy.

How did we go from certs and technical qualifications to being anti-social, arrogant geeks. No one said anything about being dis-courteous or dis-respectful. Most trades grow and promote their leaders from within the ranks. Why should IT be any different? Does the mechanic that works on your car let you go in the garage and take the time to explain to you why a 25 cent fuse costs you 75 dollars to fix? I don't think so. If you don't think that in the IT industry that we have an over abundance of inept non IT middle managers then that is your opinion. I have been in the telecommunications/networking/security industry for over 25 years and have never seen the likes of non IT people try and make good IT technicians fit into some dynamic process control chart. WE can all have different opinions and still respect each other.

Check out SNL's Nick Burns character (played by Jimmy Fallon in the Will Ferrell days) to see what kind of IT guy not to be.

It's kind of a running joke with the users at my company when I have to perform a helpdesk-type duty for them and arrive "in character", complete wth the obscure computer jargon & condescending attitude. It's funny because I'm not like Nick Burns, and the users seem to appreciate that I recognize that I try to not be the stereotypical computer nerd.

If your job involves working with people at any level you have to learn to get along with them.

Remember that there are hundreds or thousands of people who can do what you do and not be a complete tool while doing it. No one is irreplacable.

People remember you when you help them. Always keep in mind that the people you interact with now may one day be promoted or get a better job & keep you in mind when something better opens up because of your helpful attitude and previous relationship.

Bottom line is that no one is responsible for your career success except yourself, and if you're like most people you work because you need to make money. No sense in shooting yourself in the foot by being rude or uncooperative to the people who may one day be in a position to either offer you something better later on or can you.

It isn't such a hardship to be nice when you are fixing whatever the problem is. The ability to politely explain what happened in plain english and how to avoid it in the future is a huge plus in any industry, not just IT. Should we settle for less? Why? For every "brilliant" anti-social, there is another "brilliant" sociable IT person waiting to take you job. Keep it in mind. I can teach you the technology, I cannot teach you to have social skills. Your mother should have taught you that.

True story, I went to a custom pc shop in Florida to purchase a pc for my mother. I walk in, and am immediately hit in the face w/ attitude from the techies. You would have thought I walked into a biker hangout to see the attitudes and swagger of the little 120 lb soaking wet types in there. I don't look like the typical techie, so they assumed I had no idea what I wanted. I made the mistake of actually purchasing something there (they were the only option at the time, and time was a bit short). Turns out, attitiude cannot fix anything, as my poor mother found out. So, basically, lose the attitiude, and you can come work for a professional organization instead of hanging out at a fix it store or comp usa trying to look cool.

I wouldn't hire you, or the person to whom you replied. IT people are so arrogant that it's embarassing.

Remember that you have been hired to perform a service for your company, not to complain about "pathetic end users". There are MANY people who are technical, intelligent, and pleasant.

Let me put it another way: The vast majority of successful people have charisma.

Here's another way to look at it: If you have so much technical skill that you can afford to be a dick, imagine how far you'd get if non-techs actually liked you.

This is someone who is going past the mark of techie into successful career.

Given the choice, I'll take the person who can document and prove on the job ability over someone with a certificate. If I can get them, I'll take those who have both, if for no other reason than keeping their certs updated demonstrates that they care about their career enough to go that extra step over the competition. For every cert, there are at least 10 self-study applications available to prepare for them, and most of them are like interactive 'Cliff's Notes' - they'll make sure you pass the exam, but I have seen some peole with certs who would hurt themselves if given a screwdriver.

Rant time:
I believe Chris says it just about right. So many people posting replies here complain about getting stepped on by business managers who consider IT people clueless outside their technical environment, then these same IT people express their intolerance of those who don't have the same technical skills they do!

How about a little tolerance and mutual respect? Maybe the managers really don't understand your work (who said they were supposed to?). On the other hand, do you think you could chair board meetings with investors and customers necessary to keep a company in business? Not without some attitude adjustment first.

IT is a service job, and that means giving your best to representing and protecting the company's interests, not just running your IT 'kingdom' and being left alone to play with your toys. Every company needs cooperative people who enjoy working with others in the office, not a bunch of prima donnas pursuing their own agendas. If you can't work with others, start your own business, then you can be on the other side of the fence - you might be surprised to see just how far your technical skills can't take you without adding some social skills and business sense.

Being civil is nothing more than being professional. Just because you have technical skills, certified or not, doesn't give you license to act superior to your co-workers and the company's customers. Without customers, the company has no income, and without income, there isn't much need for an IT department. Attitude DOES count.

Rant #2(I know I'm asking for it here):
Would some of you people PLEASE try to express yourselves like adults or at least learn how to spell? You're so proud of your technical skills, try using your word processor's spell checker sometimes. Or at least proofread what you type before hitting the 'Submit My Comments' button. If you have the time to go on line and participate in this forum, then at least show some pride in what you post from yourself to the world. Typing mistakes are one thing (I am a poor typist), but what I see here sometimes makes me cringe. If you can't communicate any better than that, how can you expect to have anyone take you seriously? If you want others to respect you, respect yourself and what you say first.

Fire away.

I think your missing the point. IT people are misunderstood because "pathetic end users" don't have a clue as to what goes into our job. We may look like we're not doing much, but everyone in the company's job depends on how well we do ours. The fact is we need to concentrate, and when we're deep into something we will seem rude and moody because we're either ignoring the interruption or impatiently dismissing it so we can concentrate on the task at hand. In that one split second it takes to make a mistake, it could take a whole day or more to fix it. All because we're expected to be "social" and answer the insipid question that the inquirer probably isn't going to understand the answer to anyway. And guess who will be inconvenienced the most and be the rude one then? End users aren't so friendly and respectful when their computers aren't working properly.

Don't get me wrong, no one has the right to go around snapping at people or treating them in a condescending manner. Everyone should treat everyone with courtesy and respect - and that goes for all walks of life. (Believe me, I've seen some real jerks in restaurants and grocery stores "beating up" on the workers). In most businesses, the whole place shuts down when the computers go down. Give us a break and let us do our work, so you can do yours.

Just letting you know there are those of us out here who agree w/ you.

P.S., I used the spell checker.

Buddy, you can't treat the people like "pathetic end users" many of them sign your checks... You're just living up to the stereo typical techie from Saturday Night Live. I so agree with your work ethic though. Many days are straight out brain fry. That's what we get paid to do. But show a little patience for those others and remember that you probably couldn't do their job just like they can't do yours. Communication, clarity, competency, and results = more money for new projects and better vacations.

You should keep in mind too that most companies aren't selling IT services, or have it as an asset, rather it is a support service to enable the core business to make money.

IT is very important, and so are the folks in accounting, marketing, manufacturing, planning and so on - if they weren't important for business operations, they likely wouldn't be there. Common respect and an understanding of the importance of everyone from the cleaning crew to the president/owner can go a long way towards keeping things on keel, this goes both ways. Most times, you must give respect to have it returned. (resulting in a great rapport between IT and the user community)

This is one of the key concepts I try to instill in new hires I've trained over the years.

It's not particular to IT or even service industries. Anyone you disrespect 'knows' you aren't going to do your best work for them hence you'll get no respect.
Certifications, qualification or wadges of experience don't rate respect, being able to do what you claim you can and then actually following through is what gets you it in my book.
For an initial contact always give them the benefit of the doubt. That in itself should get you the best from someone who's capable of it. If it doesn't they're a w@nker who isn't worthy of your time.

Let me tell ya what is Behaviour...its sitting in the server room for hours...now, that 's what an SA is supposed to do...what social skills do we have? Forget the social skills and cut the crap..just get your job done ! That's what matters...not social butt kissers, yeah!

Good post.

I am an IT business owner, and I find it amusing that so many people are jumping on you for your views. You're right - IT workers who are actually getting things done don't have a lot of time to socialize. The business depends on the network and you're paid to keep that network running at all costs. You're exactly the type of employee that I would hire. You seem to love the work that you do and I'm sure you bust your ass for that paycheck. It isn't your job to make people laugh or inflate the egos of insecure people who don't have enough work to do.

That said, this is a service orientated business and a tech MUST be polite, friendly, and helpful when dealing with end users and co-workers. But a "charismatic" employee who walks around spending half his/her shift BS'ing is a liability, not an asset. Actions speak louder than words.

I agree with you to a certain degree, I worked my way up to an IT director without a degree, then I got my BS, JD and I am now working on my Masters in Information. While I have the technical ability, I found that so many executives were lacking some of the leadership and ethical decision making skills that are so critical. So IT people in my opinion are really not all that different and should learn to be more interactive with others for many times when IT is involved with a project rollout, there really is a lack of communication that can lead to a project failure.

After managing PC repair, I have had to train four A+ certified people how to build a PC from scratch. And I am not certified at all. Two tech's had no certification and could do it all. I am sure certification has it's place, but experience really counts.

What good is it if you have your papers and no experience to back it up. It takes time and a lot of hard work to become a good IT person who can fix, and build PC and understand whats going on when something breaks or goes wrong. Hats off to all those IT people who have worked without certification and can still manage to get the job done and done correctly.

Most would agree that experience counts for a lot more than qualifications, but if you work in a large company you may never see those experienced people.

HR departments can get so many applications for a post that they throw out applications simply for not having a qualification.

I've seen it happen....

Excellent question. In general experience comes first, only the ignorant Mgr. thinks a Cert will automatically be the answer.
(BSc. Software Engineer - CAD, IPC, Client/Server, Data acquisition) (No Certs.)

Besides the need for experience goes back to my first year out of college. We all scratched our heads on that catch-22.
Whats ironic is that a Cert. only measures the retention of the contents of the tests. no Cert. measures intangible experience. Industry is nuts and never knows what it wants they live on hair trigger reactions to the latest buzz words and ideologies. Yet I would hope Mgt. Would have the sense to carefully weigh out both Cert.'s and experience together, 20% Cert. - 80% Exp. Yes I think 20-80 is fair since I busted my ass for 15 years!!!( Manager shmucks) you would think I new something. But soon Certs won't even matter because a Cert. in New Dehli works for less.

I agree that Experience is important, but where can you go to get that experience. I went to school and got those Certifications and Degree, and when I was done and looking for a job all anybody wanted was experience. Where is somebody suppose to get experience at. I got lucky after about 2 years of searching I have finally found an IT position willing to take a chance on somebody with knowledge, but not the experience.

During my last week of tech school I was at my part time job and got to talking with a customer about computers. He kept asking me troubleshooting questions. I thought maybe he was having computer problems at work. At the end of the conversation he tells me he is an IT recruiter. I interviewed with him formally two days later. Two days after that I interviewed at the company he was finding for. When I went in for the interview at the company, the interviewer was running late. I got to talking to the receptionist and she explained that she was having a problem. I fixed the problem just as the interviewer got there and went up to the interview. That was on a friday. I started the following Monday as the system administrator for this small company. I had a year of schooling (maintained a 4.0 gpa)and no certs. I count the year of school as active experience, but personality helps too. (so does fixing their stuff before you even talk to them.) I got seriously lucky.