Discussion on:

Microsoft to lock pirates out of Vista PCs

Microsoft plans to incorporate new anti-piracy technology in Windows Vista that will help put an end to pirated software. Windows Vista?s "reduced functionality mode" will lock people out of their PCs if the OS isn't activated with a legitimate product registration key within 30 days.

How long do you think it will take before people find a way around the product registration key in Windows Vista?

most people will probably keep XP around for a while. I think that the first 6 months of Vista will be like Me when it was released.
That said, to answer your question, and note, I am not a developer.
I think that it will be cracked pretty quickly, lets say, less than 2 months. But I think that the majority of people in the USA will use legit copies, and still get locked out occasionally.

Are Volume License stuff where one of the MS Certified Partners buys the package and just installs the product on everything that they sell.

What makes this worse is that this is abused Genuine Product and in most cases that I've run into here it's the end user who suffers because MS can not get their hands on the now defunct company who originally flogged the software.

As far as generating Product Keys I don't know how things go with the current WGA but when it comes to cable TV the cracks are available on line within a few minutes of the changes occurring. I dare say the same will apply to the Different versions of Vista when it becomes available. Though I personally think that the major problem will remain with Volume License Product which doesn't need Activating.

Col

Working at a computer repair shop, you see this EVERYwhere. I can tell you in my early days I even had several of my own computers on the lovely Windows XP Pro SP2 Corporate Edition, perfect for any pirate in training. No activation, no worries about getting updates up untill WGA and it worked like a charm.

What most people don't understand is how many people use these copies. It's not just the geek down the street. To quote ZDnet, "35% of the packaged software installed on personal computers worldwide in 2005 was illegal, amounting to $34 bln in global losses". And I'm sure a big chunk of that was M$ products. The couple complaints from people about WGA is well worth the possible billions they could get from people being forced to get a legal version of Windows.

But knowing M$, they'll probably come up with a great idea to fix this, only half way develop the idea, and end up putting a patch/SP out a couple months later to finish the idea.

people with vested interests in over stating the amount, as it justifies their position and business. The second point is that the vast majority of this pirate software is in countries where the software isn't protected by laws anyway - eg China, etc.

A side point, raised by another are:

If there are no pirate Whinedoze versions, then those pirate copies will NOT convert to sales of legal software. People use the pirate software because they can't afford the legal stuff, at this time. Often they use it at home while a student, and then buy legal software when they can afford it, they buy what they're familiar with. So the pirate software, later leads to legal sales. If they can't get MS at a low enough price, they won't get MS at all, and those sales wil never go to MS.

In short, this is NOT going to increase legal sales in any way. It may stop pirate sales and force people to other OSs, and will lead to lowered sales, as the people will be familiar with the other OS, and never buy Whinedoze when they can afford legal software.

A few complaints about WGA, yeah, right. teh problem is bigger than that. Corporations are complaining about the problems and costs caused by WGA shutting down systems. Their response is to look at moving away from WGA, that means moving away from MS Whinedoze, this may take some years, but some companies are already actively looking at Linux and having the next generation of their specialty apps designed for linux or Unix.

At present, each new version of Whinedoze requires a new update of your major apps. If you have to update, why not update for good, and move to a better OS, that doesn't give so many headaches.

Long term this will cost MS big dollars, not gain any.

Currently I have a problem with a dead guys computer that I bought the original copy of XP Pro from one of MS's resellers and these are the major wholesalers not the little low volume wholesalers which I've killed the DSL connection as the computer only has to be kept for about 5 years till the Tax Cycle ends and there is no possibility of the Tax Man coming after a Deceased persons Estate.

Now as this is a free job I'm not overly happy with the current problem I've had to turn off Windows Updates because they where hogging all the available Bandwidth and slowing down dramatically the ability to collect E-Mail that was left over from prior to the death of this guy and open Web Pages.

On the 26-6-2006 I turned off Windows Update and last night when I tried to open the computer to apply some AV Updates I got a lovely This Is A Pirate Copy of Windows display that I can not work around.

Out of desperation I rang MS Tech Sup[port and was promptly told that A This is really a Pirate copy of XP Pro or B I must be mistaken as this Can Not Happen.

Now as I built the computer and know exactly what was put into it I know that there is a perfectly Genuine Copy of Windows installed and I know that the thing isn't working properly & I'm totally locked out of the system so there is no chance of a Quick Fix. The fact that both SP1 &2 as well as WGA installed without a single problem is beside the point either I have a Pirate Copy of XP Pro which it most certainly is not or I'm an Idiot That may be correct but I was only telling them what came up on the screen.

Now MS answer is to do a repair Install and see if that works and if not try an In place Install and in 2 days time they will ring back and see how I'm going. I'm not actually overly concerned with the actual immediate problem but I don't want to see it happen every few months as the wife who is still under heavy medication is very fragile and falls apart at every slight problem. I personally don't need to contribute to these problems that she has but I have to keep the computer running and as I'm not getting paid for my trouble I really don't want top spend 100's of hours finding a solution.

In this one case WGA is a very real problem that is adversely impacting on the health of the surviving family member and it's something that I really don't need to deal with. Crying women are not my first choice and this one is anything but stable.

Sure I could quite rightly walk away saying It's Not My Problem but as the owner has been a excellent customer for over 15 years I feel obliged to help out. This should only involve a few minutes every few months to keep running and nothing else should be required. Unfortunately it's not working out that way and I really don't want to put more problems on this poor woman.

However if this was a copy loaded from an Action Pack this problem wouldn't be arising. Either way I just see it as wrong and I'm far less than happy about the entire incident.

Col

single install copies of Whinedoze XP Pro. It's exactly why I gave up on it and have switched to Linux. In the seven cases I've seen, it has appeared where the original install was a single, fully licenced copy of XP Pro, in the fancy box with the seriel number, bought from MS Aust. SP1 is loaded, SP2 is loaded, WGA is loaded. Auto updates are used for a while. Then you turn off auto updates and start to pick and choose which you want. You don't do any updates for 28 days - whammy you get shot. Seven different machines, three it happened twice.

In one case the owner got so frustrated, that she took the pirate copy of XP Pro her son brought home from school and put it on. She does no updates at all now, but the system doesn't lock up either. She keeps the original disc sitting with the computer, in case they every check her software licences, it's a business computer - she can't afford the lockdowns.

In the other cases, two are now Linux, the other 4 have to use Whinedoze for a specific app, and they won't consider anything else. So clean installs of XP PRO SP1 only, no SP2, no WGA, no updates beyond SP1. Another machines has the internet connection and has and both have firewalls. Best that can be done with this rubbish.

WGA = Whinedoze Guaranteed Agrivation

The Head of MS Tech is away at the moment I should have realized that with Vista coming so soon I wouldn't have got him.

As things stand at the moment I'm supposed to try a Rescue install and wait for MS to ring back on Thursday between 1.30 to 2.00 PM.

I have this terrible sinking feeling in my guts that it's going to be exactly the same as the problem that I ran into with SP1 for XP. When every possibility had been exhausted by MS I was told to ring them when I had a fix.

That was an incompatible DVD Player that caused that problem and took ages to find out. I just don't want to go through the entire thing all over again particularly as the woman in question isn't capable of listening.

Tonight when I picked up the computer I told her that I was going to wait for a phone call from MS Tech Support and that would be between 1.30 to 2.00 PM Thursday and she promptly replied that I could return the computer after 12.30 as she would then be home. Currently with all he drugs that the quacks have her on she's not overly reasonable and I really don't want to make things worse.

Now what was it that I was saying about No Good Turn Ever Goes Unpunished?

Personally I think that I'll be stuck with a In Place Install from the original install CD and just adding SP1. It doesn't need any more than that for the little use that it's going to be getting.

Col

MS is entitled to get payed for services provided (eg provision of OS) However they should NOT be entitled to insist that a user has to use their product in a certain way (eg activate). I pay for my software and want to use it unrestricted after taking it out of the box. As long as I do not do anything illegal (eg pitate) why do I have to do anything else but use the system. Asked me once a month to put a valid CD in the drive or something that does NOT involve any further dealing with MS. I can live with this. But why do I have to connect to MS?

Hello Hal and D_E.
It's been a while and it's good to read you guys again.
I've had exactly the same problem.
I bought my XPPro Brand New Last August and then as usual crashed.{I'm making a long story short} I crashed twice freely then on the third install, my number no longer worked and I had to call Microsoft.
Whereupon they gave me a new number to punch in, but there was a catch.
Now, no matter what I now do, all my Drives are interconnected ie; Shared and no matter how many time I try to undo this, when I do a shut down restart, they come back all shared again. I don't want the drives to be shared nor do I want to have to go to Microsoft and get a new number every time I re-install.This tell's me that they are in contact with my system. They've even given themselves managerial rights on my system.
All this because of their stupid need to Dominate.
I paid serious money for this program and should certainly be able to consider it mine,not to be shared by Microsoft.
This Validation ins nothing more than subterfuge, it's their way of maintaining control over your PC, something that I deeply resent.This Computer is Mine, as are all the peripherals, So is the Program I therefore see no need for Microsoft to control that which is not their's EULA notwhistanding.
I deeply resent my privacy invaded under an obviously false pretext.I don't need MS to tell me I'm Genuine. Sell me the Product clear, no validation should be required.
We are paying for the crooks and Microsoft is using this as a method of control. This is wrong.
Anyway,Enough of my ranting, been away and it's good to be home talking to you guys.
Thanks for the Ear.
Regards
Aaron

I read a quote just a couple hours ago in this months Windows IT Pro magazine by Paul Thurrott stating that even the volume license versions will require activation. No version of Vista apparently will escape this requirement.

-J-

It's something that M$ has dropped in on us since originally talking to their Partners about Licensing Procedures.

When they first started talking about what is now known as Vista we where told that things would remain the same as for the previous products as per the Volume Licensing Requirements that we where previously using.

But recently this has been changed so we now have to activate at the very least every copy of Vista that we sell on a Volume License. I've been told that this is No Big Deal & it will not Add much time to each Build that we do.

If only it was so!

Col

I read a quote just a couple hours ago in this months Windows IT Pro magazine by Paul Thurrott stating that even the volume license versions will require activation. No version of Vista apparently will escape this requirement.

-J-

constantly locking me out of my legal copy of XP (I have a right not to use autoupdates, but MS disagree) so I switched to SimplyMEPIS Linux, who needs a MS product key - not me.

who have started switching to Linux. For basic computing it is not a bad OS. It gets much more complicated though, when trying to really learn it.

I have been moving over to SUSE more and more.

Ubuntu 6.06 LTS installs easily, virtually any application you can do with MS, there is a similar mirror of it under a different name and slightly different way of performing the same tasks in Open Source software applications. Use Ubuntu's software repositories and they install flawlessly. Linux shouldn't scare anyone any moreso than OS X. I wouldn't consider Linux a basic OS, it's equally as capable of Windows and then some. Vista is actually becoming more like OS X and Linux, but still bears the heftier pricetags.

Off topic, had to laugh, the guy boasting about getting Vista RC1 32/64 bit versions, was walking out of work moments ago, he can't even get the 32 bit version to install on a standard issue, same hardware across the board Dell. He tells me other's are experiencing this same issue. Hey, when Microsoft pays me or anyone else for wasted time on/with Vista, their OS should be free. Makes me appreciate Ubuntu even more.

I have tried fedora, kept having issues, and so I tried a couple of others, and ended up on SUSE 10
The only trouble I had with it was (on a notebook) it tried installing the Wireless network card and not the LAN. On a reinstall (before I knew what was going on) I saw in the setup this, so I switched it to install the LAN default.
After that the install was simple. On a desktop system, I had no problems.

The only other thing was installing the media player for DVD's. I had to follow instructions from 4 different sites for the proper downloads, and it still fails to install because I am missing another download. I installed 9 things to get it working and then thought it to be too time consuming and gave up for then. never got back to it.

ended up at SimplyMEPIS, I found it a bit easer to use than Ubuntu. MEPIS 6 uses the Ubuntu Dapper packages, and is now about 80% Ubuntu, just a few differences that I find a bit better. MEPIS is easier to do some admin functions than Ubuntu Badger (the version I tried).

Re the DVDs, have your tried the Xine from

www.xinehq.de

I'm using Kaffeine, just had to load a special file that decodes the corporate protection rubbish.

I don't know jow it works in Suse, but Ubuntu, there are two obvious ways to get applications, the first, the menu at the top has an Applications selection, at the bottom of the pop up menu tree is the add/remove. From there Xine and a host of other dvd players/media players is automatically installed thru the repositories after downloading and applying the selections, dependencies are handled thru the repository. Just make sure you pick the main application first, then whatever libs and other dependencies are indicated to be selected. By all means select them and proceed.

The second method, Synaptics Package Manager, is under System, administration and then look for Synaptics Package Manager.

will be to have the hybrid free/commercial distros. I am about to try Linspire for this very reason. Ok, I pay for it ($12 on ebay) but it has propritary drivers and applications not on the free versions. I am hoping that this will solve some of my problems too.

at Micro Center recently. But it is a yearly subscription for the SW packages and updates. After a few yrs. it costs as much as XP Pro.

But in defense of SUSE, I was installing rpm packages for the media player, at the time I didnt realize that YAST installed apps as well.
And that there was more SW on the dvd and Novells site (to install with YAST).
But I havent had the need to watch a DVD at work, or on the road, so I didnt continue.

For the most part, as just a user, I have had very little problems with SUSE, and many administrative functions are pretty easy too. I just don't know them all yet.

My time is valuable as well as my customers time. I pay Microsoft for their software and follow the privilages of the OS lease. The problems I see that security addresses is most often caused by thrid party "holes in the wall". I can put many locks on my door but if I give the keys to another I could have a serious problem.
Vista has addressed this issue: if software doesn't meet the requirements it doesn't get installed. I have two PCs running Vista one 64bit the other 32 bit. Its the best and I don't want some else using my EULA product key. Thanks MS for a great product. Eveybody gets rewarded for their work, with their own legal copy. Time is important: stick with well known legal products.

It's not your EULA, it's MS's

The 3rd party holes in previous versions of windows were engineered by MS, so 3rd party software would run.

I personally welcome the security improvement, but I know it's going to cause one or three problems for businesses with vista incompatible 3rd party and inhouse applications. It's going to range from a trivial problems to total carnage. So you might find a few people less than sanguine about your blase acceptance.

Best what by the way
P.S What hardware are you running the 64 on, did you get the driver signing issues?

"The 3rd party holes in previous versions of windows were engineered by MS, so 3rd party software would run."

The whole idea of an OS is to run third party software, thus it should be made to run them properly, not via holes.

Secondly, people who make third party software for Windows, pay MS for the code and list of instructions to enable them to write their software compatible with Windows. SO it's MS's decision on what they are given, and how it's writtern.

The basic concept behind modern software is that applications do things and then give the OS commands from various basic sets, the OS then does things with those commands. The OS should be written such that the application writers need not know the OS code, just the commands to give the OS. This was set out as a recommended industry standard over a decade ago. Yet, MS don't do it that way, thus the need for application writers to get the MS code.

Having made people to pay for that code to people so that they can interface with MS Windows, MS should be responsible for seeing that the code stays operational, and not arbitrarily change it. If they need to make changes to fix a problem, then the changes should be further into the system. E.g. if command routine 'x' has a problem in its code and MS want to change that, then the can do so by having the call procedure the same, the routine the same name, and rewrite the routine. Sadly, that is NOT how MS usually write code patches.

Re the 64 bit hardware, when I ran XP on my 64 bit system, thie biggest driver issue I had was finding 64 bit drivers for my MS Intellimouse - I buy the latest MS OS (XP 64 bit edition) and it doesn't have 64 bit drivers for their own hardware, then I find that it's another 6 months before their website does (nearly a year since they released the 64 bit XP). Yet, Linux had 64 bit drivers available for the MS Intellimouse with every 64 bit edition I tested, kind of funny that.

i have the same problem vista rc1 will not install were beta 2 used to sit. even as a clean install.

in each case it stops at the very same point almost done but not yet done. it then locks up and stays put there or reboots and reboots.

makes up ms? if this is going to be the case then i think i be building more machines with linux on them.

But for Vista this has to be a self inflicted wound. When MS feels compelled to charge what they will do for Vista , I won't buy that crap (and that's if I ever do need it at all) until it works with at least XP compatibility & reliability.

I saw this earlier in the AM and commented about how this will effect adoption of Vista. Microsoft fully expects this to be an impediment to a bigger transition from XP to Vista (they're shooting themselves in the foot). I don't see this as a barrier, rather I see it as an opportunity to enjoy Ubuntu Linux. No codes, autoupdates & no limitations. This will even make me think twice about running OS X on a PC if it comes down to a choice of what to buy/pay for. I see OS X becoming a bigger player, may even influence pricing of Windows and other MS products. Apple needs to view themselves as not only a viable competitor to Dell, HP and others for hardware, but in a real arena where the real battle line will become the OS and software applications. Before Jobs claimed his OS was superior on a closed platform (PPC), now he's going to get his chance to prove it. When the best MS has to offer in Vista is $ 399 a copy and Apple can put OS X out for $ 139 or so, this has to be advantage Apple. Linux doesn't help either MS or Apple, but at least is you have to pay for one, OS X is significantly more cost effective. If Apple makes Leopard compatible with older G4 PPC, I'll be buying it long before a Vista purchase, that's if Vista is ever bought. Maybe hardware vendors can bundle Vista with a hdd, otherwise, I could care less if I ever use it beyond the beta and RC stages.

I understand MS's need to curb piracy, this is a good approach for themselves to implement at the hdd level of each machine Vista is installed on. I've beta'ed Vista and it will expire 6/1/2007. This and anything else MS may hasten it's removal, I really don't use it all that much anyway, especially when I've decided Ubuntu Linux is my solution. Why waste time and resources learning Vista, once you've used a Windows product it's no different from release to release since Windows 98 SE. To be honest I could care less about MS at this stage of the game, this Vista product is smoke and mirrors, relying on an over abundance of resources rather than a lean and mean approach to an OS. I don't buy faster cpu's, better graphics, larger and faster storage & memory for it to be unproductively wasted on bloated eye candy. Let MS keep Vista Beta/RC1, Office 2007 Beta and IE 7 Beta. Some of the hardware that Vista supports today, those drivers will not be included with the production release. So that day they'll not only require me to upgrade software, but hardware as well. Or at least that is the thought process. I refuse to, Ubuntu Linux and it's open source applications are my choice moving forward and has been for the last 126 days. I intend for my hardware to be usable and productive for at least a few more years, not the predetermined obsolescence that MS has planned.

MS continues to cut their own throats, they hang themselves with their own rope. For those that rely on them, pooor souls, those of us that have evolved to Linux are free of & from MS.

For the last month or more the mere mention of MS and Vista seems to draw you out to make misinformed and inaccurate statements about an OS you can't have possibly tried. We are aware that you are a Linux weenie, but get real, Linux is just another flavor of OS it has its strengths and plenty of weaknesses as well. I will agree that on looking at Ubuntu Dapper Drake that they are getting close to being a friendly desktop. But until it can read my hardware accurately and supply the correct drivers for that hardware, and perhaps make suggestions for software that will take advantage of its capabilities it is still an also ran with me.

You make the statement that when Vista will be released there will be less drivers, what complete idiosy on your part, as I visit the hardware vendors sites for hardware that I own there are more and more Vista drivers available. It is the manufacturers not MS who decide on how much legacy hardware gets supported. But if you had ever tried Vista or even XP you would know that MS has Universal or generic drivers which do a very good job in taking care of approximately 80% of legacy equipment that manufacturers no longer support.

I am sure MS doesn't care one way or the other whether you update your hardware, they will even support your XP machine for another five years if that is your wish. But some of us due to the kind of computing we do, update our hardware on a fairly regular basis, and have long had the resources to run Vista, in fact most computers sold in the last year with slight modifications will run Vista with all the bells and whistles. I have tried Office 2007 Beta on a 486 running XP SP2 and it worked fine. Vista installed as well but due to hardware deficiencies ran in basic mode only which for a lot of people is probably all they want.

This article though was on the fact that MS was doing away with corporate liscencing which is where the major source of piracy happened. They are just saying that they are closing the door on this previous weakness, which is smart on their part, I hope they suceed and that others will follow suit. The high cost of software is caused in part by piracy and any measures to stop it are welcome, as I only use legal software.

As to the cost of Mac OS X, I wish someone actually look at what you get from Apple versus what you get from MS. MS charges one price upfront and all upgrades to that version are free. Apple charges $139 for their OS, and then again the next year with their upgrade, and then again the next year with the next upgrade, and so on. Like MS their OS has a five year life span, so at 139 X 5 you will find that you are paying more for your Mac OS than you are for Windows.

he is expressing a point, and quite a valid one from his perspective.

You have the right to disagree, and make other points, but to resort to name calling destroys any validity about what you were trying to say.

I'm not an Mac user, but I recently looked at one. The Mac software was offered locally at one fifth the price of MS XP Pro, and had many extras. To buy the MS software to equate what Mac were offering you need to purchase the following MS products

XP Pro, Office, Publisher, Media Centre, and it had a few extras not available as MS products. The total here would increase the cost of XP by ten fold.

You also missed out on the fact that Mac OSs are not upgrades, like MS Service Packs but new versions. Like going from Win 95 to Win 98 to Win 98SE. Mac upgrades for identified security issues are provided free, the same way that MS offer security patches - it's just that Mac doesn't have to offer so many.

The Mac development cycle is much shorter than MS, which is why the local Mac people offer big discounts if you buy the new one as soon as it's out. Checking the Mac OS prices, over the life of XP, buying and replacing the Mac OSs each time, still works out cheaper than the full MS XP route.

But, you don't have to buy the new Mac OS when it comes out. Like MS Window$ you can stay with the one that you originally bought.

I hvaen't yet seen anything to justify switching from XP to Vista, it offers nothing worthwhile to the average user, and is a degredation for the business user. The best Windows version for business was Win 98SE, and still is. No excess garbage to slow down and distract they staff from their work. But MS doesn't support it any more, not that they ever really supported it. Loss of MS support just means that they don't issue fixes for the faults in the original, any more.

But hey go to Linux, its's a lot cheaper again, and has free upgrades and updates and patches.

Going back to the article and moving away from corporate licences, so that a company would need individual licneces for each machine would mean huge increases in corporate tech support. Some will wear that out of ignorance, many will so 'enough' and move away from Windows, and then the MS sales will drop further.

What is interesting is the number of games manufacturers that are moving away from Windows based games to Linux based - they're fed up with MS charging for the code to make the game work with Windows, then MS issues a patch that crashes the game, and want them to pay for the code of the change to make the game work again. the same with some apps.

"But until it can read my hardware accurately and supply the correct drivers for that hardware, and perhaps make suggestions for software that will take advantage of its capabilities it is still an also ran with me."

This feature by MS's own admission only works with 32 bit XP and Vista, doesn't work on 64 bit Vista and isn't 100 % accurate with known issues.

Read for yourself:

"http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/getready/upgradeadvisor/default.mspx"
"http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/getready/upgradeadvisor/faq.mspx"

Besides, Ubuntu has repositories full of software that work with the OS and hardware, how much more of a suggestion do you want, select the package and it installs and works. It wouldn't be in the repository unless Ubuntu had developed a deb package for Ubuntu specifically.

As for fewer drivers, the legacy drivers, many will not be included in the initial release, this would mean there would be fewer drivers if they are excluded. Unless MS keeps adding new drivers to keep up with the newest hardware for Vista, mathematically for new drivers that's an increase. I'm not arguing that with you or making that point, but that would still be fewer, because the older legacy hardware is no longer being supported by MS. It only makes sense that as newer Vista drivers become available, they would be added or replace the older driver. How is any of this logic re: fewer drivers, my idiocy ?

No offense but your claim of running XP SP2 on a 486 has got to be stupidity on your part. First off a 486 isn't even a Pentium class system, Check XP's minimum requirements (233 Mhz). I doubt XP runs well on that system, much less Office 2007. Vista installing on a 486 ? You're making me laugh, Why would you even try it ?

"http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/upgrading/sysreqs.mspx"

Yes, and what about those instances where MS incorrectly identifies software as pirated or not genuine, I guess MS will just be sorry that day for any inconveniences ? I have a Dell @ work that was shipped with XP, I have to make several attempts to install critical updates for it, 1/2 of them fail on each attempt. This on a system I personnally had WGA certified and passed. Sometimes to download the kb******, the system has to reauthenticate. Unfortunately Ubuntu has had to update a few times this week, all updates downloaded and installed flawlessly.

Mac OS X, sorry, you're wrong about that too. Upgrades are every bit as free. iTunes, Quicktime, Mail, and so on upgrade thru a free download or automatic software updates. Hey just because MS has been sitting on XP since 2001, don't rip OS X and Linux for several overhauls. I've been using all 3 OS's in one form or another since the turn of the century. OS X and Linux have yet to crash on any of my systems, yet to be compromised for a denial of service attack. Yet upon numerous occasions, Windows has crashed, has experienced denial of service attacks. Yes, I stay on top of all updates, every 2nd Tuesday of each month. But back to your assertions, why would I buy OS X five times in five years ? I've had Jaguar, came with my Powerbook G4, Apple was so kind as to include a free set of Panther upgrade disks with the notebook. So I bought Tiger for $ 95 delivered a week after it was introduced for $ 139. Everyone one of these OS's has been update 8-9 times, The updates are free of charge and downloaded directly from Apple. I can get it as a single step updater dmg or a combined updater dmg for everything from the first to the current. Tiger is @ update 10.4.8, with Leopard around the corner. Apple hasn't published compatible hardware, I don't know if PPC will be supported. Oh well, I don't care, I'm converted to Linux anyway.

Anything more you want to cover ?

"But until it can read my hardware accurately and supply the correct drivers for that hardware, and perhaps make suggestions for software that will take advantage of its capabilities it is still an also ran with me."

Back to this one, I'll give you a real world example for XP SP2. My boss has a usb Microsoft wireless keyboard and mouse. XP SP2 on a computer. To testbed Xandros Linux, we installed and dual booted it on the same box.

Prior to Linux going on the box:

Symptoms: The system is turned on, passes the bios identification process and gets to the Windows XP logo screen. At this point the Microsoft wireless mouse and keyboard start to function erratically, sometimes one or the other is recognized, sometimes even both, sometimes neither. As Windows continues to load, the wireless mouse and keyboard stop functioning completely, depending upon which was even recognized. To get the hardware to be rerecognized or recognized at all, each item has to be turned off and turned back on as it if were being plugged in again for the very first time and Windows XP SP2 has to find it and add it to the list on every bootup.

So right now you have to figure it's either a bios problem, defective hardware or a Microsoft Windows problem, right ? It's isolated as a Windows box only.

We install Xandros Linux, The bios obviously recognizes at least the keyboard, because LILO requires you to use the arrow kays to toggle between multiple selections on a dual boot system and this functions flawlessly. When Windows XP is selected, the same issues arise as if it were a MS Windows XP system. Reboot the system and simply go into Linux, quite the opposite happens, the Microsoft Wireless mouse and keyboard continue to function properly and flawlessly.

What does this mean ? Well, to me, it means the bios is doing it's job for recognizing keyboard, regardless of whether it's wireless or wired. That somehow Windows XP SP2 isn't loading the hardware drivers for Windows and this means the hardware isn't being recognized, even though the Microsoft latest and greatest available ones were/are installed. Yet, the Linux drivers are not only the proper ones, but aren't buggy.

Real world example # 2:

Again, my boss has a Dell notebook for work, it has Blue tooth. Using a Microsoft bluetooth wireless mouse, the mouse periodically lags and freezes up. Solution, he went and bought a package deal from Logitech, bluetooth wireless mouse and keyboard. Problems solved, Microsoft hardware has been removed from the equation here, obviosly XP SP2 Pro functions properly on the notebook, just not with the Microsoft branded hardware that he bought for quality and compatibility rational.

Real world example # 3:

I have a 15" lcd (X2GEN MG15VT), this monitor has yet to not boot into Windows XP SP2 or the test bed system that has Vista on it properly without being reinitialized (turned off and on again). It's not the video card, because this doesn't happen with a crt monitor (and over the years this system has had several brands of crt's ranging from Sony 15", a generic brand 17" and my current 19" IBM.). Sometimes the built-in audio doesn't work, sometimes the logo splash screens are so hopelessly aligned when Windows is the OS of choice. Sometimes the logo splash screen never is displayed. This same lcd, hooked up to my Ubuntu Linux box, works just fine.

Real world example 4: I have yet to install a MS OS, that didn't choke on drivers and hardware, that is when every device was connected on the very first clean install. You are better off building it and connecting a very basic/minimal system to get Windows on that box initially. This holds for Vista too, I had at least 5 hardware issues in device manager for the only Vista install I've ever done (You know, the little yellow question marks when hardware isn't working properly.). Previous versions of Windows were no better. That's been my choice not just inexperience, I've had others want me to install for beta purposes. But for windows, a minumumsystem needs to be installed first and then you start adding hardware component by component until everything works. Linux, the only piece of hardware that didn't function on an install that all hardware was hooked up was a wireless card. The computer I'm on now without going into the specifics, has a plethera of hardware items hooked up. Ubuntu went on this system without a single hickup with the drivers Ubuntu provides. I can't say the same for any version of Windows and Vista won't go on this computer, Ubuntu is set up and works flawlessly. Why screw up a solid working OS in Ubuntu to piddle around with Vista ?

I wouldn't call myself a Linux weenie, but that must make you a Microsoft Windows geek. So what is that supposed to mean to anyone ? Since I've backed up my posts with real world examples, please back your posts up with tangible Linux issues.

and the other attempts at piracy are proving M$s downfall. It is just some bean counters suggestion to revive failing profit margins.

They are not targetting pirates, they are alienating their (previously) loyal users.

Most are getting disgusted with M$s distrust of users, falsely labelling everyone as pirates, when their software to do so, is bug ridden.

The only way, as many an industry commentator has suggested, for M$ to combat so called piracy is to make the prices of SW realistic, and affordable, hence driving the real pirates out of business, as there will be no profit in it.

No wonder that so many are looking elsewhere, such as Linux, way ahead of any Vista launch.

They are constantly telling us their Certified Partners just how cheap their products actually are. I liked the response that I got when I asked how they could justify that when SUSE cost me under $150.00 and Windows 2003 was several thousand.

At first I was told that I was attempting to compare a Desktop Product with a Server Product but Honestly I don't think that 2003 is suitable as a Desktop Operating System. The people at MS must have rocks in their heads to think this.

I was actually comparing the server version of SUSE 10.1 to the Server version of Windows and I don't need to purchase any CAL's either to allow all my workstations to run correctly and access the server/s without a problem.

Personally I walked away from OEM or Retail copies of XP after I installed 6 SCSI HDD in my workstation and needed to reactivate the product and was accused of pirating a few hundred $ of MS junk when I was fitting several thousand $ of hardware. They really annoyed me no end with that one and I've removed every OEM copy and just used Volume License copies ever since. They have no activation issues like the OEM or Retail stuff has even if you have to change the product key every time that a Service Pack or similar so called Update becomes available.

Actually when MS starts to pay me for all the time that I waste keeping my systems running I may consider using their products again but now beside the 4 Windows computers that I have here and one of those has RC1 Vista on it everything else is either some form of Linux or BSD and I'm happily sticking to them as the OS just plain & simple works better and is far more secure.

I just love the looks that I get at MS Partners Meetings when I pull out my NB with Debian on it but I've ported IE6 and have both the Browser and Mail Client on the desktop even if they are very rarely used most of them think that I've got a really Cool Screen Saver and a highly personalised Desktop.

Col

Going to meetings and have not bought a action pack this time. MS thinks that having hundreds of venders will help sales and bring up profits.
But the partners still make too little to make it worth their time.

Mainly because I've seen them abused and several partners installing the Volume License Software in them on every computer that they sell.

It's a great way to recover the cost of the Action Pack several times over and still be providing what is essentially Legal MS Product. Though it makes life harder for the rest of us who work honestly and don't do things like that.

Generally speaking I only go to their Road Shows when there is something interesting occurring like come November 8 this year they are releasing Vista so that will be another full day spent at the Mighty MS Meeting watching the faces of the converted admire the great new OS and other offerings from MS. I'll try very hard not to be sick.

But at these meetings they always bring up the senior tech who I waylay and get some good info from so from that point of view it's worth the day if I don't see anything else, which they generally have something interesting there to look at and get all the latest new offerings from the VAR's.

At the last one some crowd had a 42 inch Plasma TV hooked up to a copy of Media Centre and where demonstrating just how great it was, at lunch time when we all walked out some one had stoled the Plasma display which was good for a laugh as it was right beside the MS log in section and must have been noticed.

Col

but a good workaround

It seems to me that Microsoft has adopted the attitude that all of its customers are criminals and should be treated as such. Personally, I don't like it and I think this attitude is further fueling the open source movement. And with Apple's systems now running Intel chips there is another competitor to Microsoft. I think they are treading on thin ice when they treat their customers this way.

Activation and reactivation are tremendous time wasters in a business environment. Replace too many components, a hard drive, or a faulty motherboard and be prepared for Microsoft to assume you're trying to cheat them. Then be prepared to waste an excessive amount of time on the phone proving to them that you're not cheating. Or, and I think it's what Microsoft wants you to do, buy another copy of the software.

There will always be a certain percentage of pirated copies, but I question how many of these pirates are either (A) stopped by Microsoft (certainly not the determined ones), or (B) wouldn't have purchased the software anyway were a pirated copy not available.

What annoys the most about XP and Windows 2003 is that you can't simply transfer the O/S to new hardware without needing to reactivate the product or reinstall it. I had this nasty experience when I upgraded my old Pentium 3 motherboard and RAM to a Pentium 4 with newer RAM. Windows XP bluescreened on every boot attempt, requiring me to reinstall the product completely. Even an in-place repair wouldn't do the trick and required a fresh O/S reinstall. And then there's that annooying process of activation again, which after numerous attempts, will lock you out from doing it over the internet. You will have to call the MS support line and talk to a technician in hopes you can convince him/her that you own a legitimate copy of Windows and are simply upgrading the hardware. If MS is so concerned about piracy, they should ship their products with USB dongles, like what many other software publishers are doing to thwart piracy. Without the dongle, the software won't function. No product activation, no telephone calls, simply a dongle in the USB port is all you need. If you upgrade your hardware, Windows will still work so long as the dongle is present. But I guess MS wants to keep track of all activated versions of Windows because they are too anal about piracy and think that everyone who owns a copy of their product is a pirate. Until they change their mentality, the general public will have to deal with their activation stupidity.

I can see this happening to many people. Or, getting too many SW apps that need a dongle, can you imagine having 300 USB hubs filled up with Dongles. The an error comes up stating that a USB port needs more power!!!
which one???
or keeping a box of dongles around and sifting through them for the proper ones to be plugged in at any given time.
what a mess.

They can always revert back to the old serial number method like in Windows 2000

the games industry has found the "Please insert original disc to open game" still works very well. If the disc gets damaged, you can ship the old one back and they ship you a new one, usually for free.

And charge for service they would have a constant ongoing stream of incoming revenue without any possible Piracy Problems.

They no doubt would be making far more money as well. Just Imagine it every time you install a Patch and it breaks something you call MS and fork over your credit card number get charged for the obligatory 15 minutes only to be told in the first 30 seconds that it's not a MS problem ring the supplier of the software. Even if the software is MS they could just bounce you to the correct department so you have what you think of as an Windows Problem only to get charged for 15 minutes to be told that it's actually a problem with Office or whatever and you get charged for the 3.5 hours while they talk you through the fix procedures to get the application working again. MS could even deliberately engineer patches to break applications so they would get more income.

In other words do a Henry Ford you can have any of my cars free provided that you come to me for parts & service. After all that's where the real money is not in the original one off sale but in the recurring service calls which can be quickly fixed but still have a minimum service charge. You pay for the 15 minutes even though MS only takes 5 seconds to give you the answer and they charge you for the time on the phone while you are waiting to talk to a tech. Easy money and a massive profit that not even MS can dream of really.

Col

dongle that allows the flow through of data as well. The dongles goes on the port, the printer behind it. With so few printers requiring this now, it would be a simple matter to have several piggybacked. I know of one CAD designer who had four attached before his printer, until he bought a USB printer. They all worked fine, as did the old printer, he got one with better quality colour.

With so many machines coming with wireless and BlueTooth built in, you could always have the dongles use low range variants of those technologies.

Sorry but if I was required to have a USB dongle or a paralle dongle or anything.. umm no.

1. A good number of newer computers have no legacy support, all USB, kinda like Mac.

2. I run a laptop as my primaray machine. Dongles would be fine and dandy on a machine you'll move maybe once a month, but I don't want to have to unplug all thos dongles and carry them around with me..

in through the back door, you'll only need to have one. Then what will happen is that you register with Wintel Secure Computing Centre, get you individual dongle that identifies you. You then get copies of what ever software you want, probably via Internet download, go to the WSCC and register your copy, paying for and being issued with a licence. This will be registered against your WSCC account, and any computer you plug your dongle into will automatically check your registered applications with the WSCC, and allow you access to the ones that it has installed and you're licenced for. No licence OK from the WSCC and you can't use it.

New systems from HP, Dell, etc will come with all the apps affilliated with the WSCC already installed, for free. You just pay your annual licence fees for access to WSCC and you various apps, and your dongle continues to work.

Please print and store this statement, and refer to it in 10 years time, and you can then say "Sheet, the little booger was right."

Bean counters at M$ suggested this idea as a way of increasing profit margins.

But it is costing M$ far more to implement that it gains, and alienating normal customers.

Yes, they have well and truly shot themselves in the foot with WGA.

Linking it to Vista? Renaming it?

Sheeeesh, that same bean counter hasn't been fired yet.

but with him moving aside, the next version of Windows may be sensible, doubtful, but possible.

herm i agree one hundred percent ms has gone to far with their piracy movement number one piracy occured on the high seas and usually involved murder rape and the burning of ships so some poor soul who lost his motherboard or hard drive is not a pirate or even close to a pirate all the poor soul wanted to do is reinstall an os that he legally paid for i am sick of ms and their ranting and insane ramblings. i guess the bottom line is bill gates has been made a poor man because the people have pirated his products.Linux is really a good os i downloaded it in a spare pent 4 computer i have here and it runs perfect still learning how to operate it but enjoying every min of it .THE new sign in front of my computer repair shop now reads TRY LINUX

Microsoft is to security / piracy as politicians are to honesty, complete strangers that will never meet.

until microsoft changes their default security policy in the design of their products, there is not one microsoft product that can honestly be said to be designed for professional use, they are all designed for home use with the critical security violations caused by their flawed default allow security model.

The new X Box is a highly polished system and has excellent graphics.

Also the Wireless Keyboard & Mouse that MS gave me work quite well but they are not actually made by MS so they probably don';t count right?

Col

proves my point doesn't it Col?

both parts, the "Home Video Game platform" is exactly what MS does.
anything for use in the business place, they don't make it.


~lol~

M$ products are not designed for home use at all, or for the internet, hence the lack of security.

They simply rely on their bread and butter market, the corporate one.

If the retail, non-VLA versions of the products aren't activated within 30 days of install, the product won't let you logon. I don't see what the big deal is about Vista when this function already exists in XP and Windows 2003. There are already ways to hack the XP product activation feature, and I'm pretty sure that Vista won't deviate from that same code and will also be easily compromised.

Yes, all publicly purchasable versions of XP and 2003 I've seen do this. Oem, Retail, Upgrade. Now Dell/Toshiba/HP OEM versions I find do not, same with E-Open licensed versions.

Also Office 2003 does this as well.

XP was cracked pretty easy, I haven't looked to find if Office 2003 was, my guess is probably.

My solution is I run Server 2000 for my file server, and linux based for my public facing stuff.

My XP Pro clients are all either Dell OEM, or E-open licenses, so no problems for me.

I just purchased an XP media center (HP) system about 1 1/2 months ago, and I had to activate it.

I used to work for HP, I remember the 7915, 7935, 7955 the first 3 HP pavilon models that had XP, none of them required activation. The did bug you to agree tot he HP license agreement and the XP agreement, you had to check 2 I agree boxes and then press an I agree button. I was there for 3 years and never saw a model that required it. Occation after running the recovery CD's the odd person had to, but that was it.

I've set up a number of Dell's recent, non of them had activation, same with a Toshiba.

Ohh well with HP, maybe they changed it, it's been 3 years since I worked there.

I too worked for HP about 4 years ago and never had (re)activation issues come up when reloading the O/S, say, after replacing a drive. I have a relatively new (1 year) Gateway that I've had to reload the O/S 3 times. Once because of drive failure and the others due to something that went stupid. In each instance, using Gateway's backup CD-ROM(s) the system was restored "out of box," followed by applying updates, it never (at least knowingly) required reactivation.

The point is, why do we need to continuously prove and re-prove ourselves to these Turkeys.
We've got the receipts, The actual CDs , the Books all say that they system is ours and yet we Still have to PROVE to Microsoft that we are not thieves? Excuse Me??
Not to mention, for the most part, we're not treated all that well either.
Once the product has been bought, and it hasn't been reported as Stolen then Microsoft should assume that we are the legitimate client and let it be, better yet treat us accordingly.
Who the hell are Bill Gates/Steve Balmer and Microsoft that we have to justify ourselves to every time we turn around.
Their license isn't worth squat to a serious first year Law student yet the Justice Dept hasn't got the Guts to go in and clean out the Rat's nest called Microsoft and their laughingly referred to EULA acquired through Extortion. I deeply resent, "Can you tell??" how they are manipulating us in order to maintain control and we're stupid enough to go along.
Actually we're "Forced" to go along, in first year Law, that's called Extortion. So why do we allow it? Why does the Justice Dept, the FBI and all the other so called powers that be, who immediately become impotent in the case of Microsoft.
Forgive, I'm furious at how we are all being used and laughed at in the same breath from Texas or Alabama Just North of the Philippines. Ya'll
Thank You
Regards
Aaron

Doesn't come as a Volume License all the XP Pro boxes from HP and the like are VLA stuff from my experience so none of them require activation.

Col

and had to wait 10 minutes, while they entered my details and activated it. Since then I've had to reactivate it six times, 5 due to WGA getting nasty as I was so far behind in updates, and no updates would load until AFTER I loaded WGA. And once due to a rebuild.

I'd be surprised if a hack doesn't already exist.
(Insert your favorite "Linux is better" punchline here.)

I think their will be a cd key generator out before vista is released in January. Their are already ways to get around the xp genuine software check.

Yes, anyone can go and obtain a key generator, but if the product activation is blacklisted by MS due to known piracy of that key, you won't be able to activate Windows and will out of luck. Windows XP is very different from 2000 and previous versions that simply needed a key to get going. Yes, you may be able to find a crack for the activation feature, but I personally do not condone piracy, and also, you won't be able to apply security updates.

"and also, you won't be able to apply security updates."

Activation is not needed in many cases (see other posts) and most automatic updates are available.

I may be wrong, but I do agree with some of the other posts when I say that XP already does do that. If somebody has some knowledge on how Vista will differ, I would appreciate an explanation.

w2kTechnician - I've never installed the WGA, just don't select it.

I am not planning to move to Vista at all. I am training for a non platform specific position, so that I can use whatever I choose/opt for.

I do plan on keeping my XP as long as I can though.

I see no reason to switch to Vista on my existing boxes. And, if I suddenly get rich and can afford one that comes preloaded with Vista; well, I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

is that the Company that I work for seems to be MS bitches. So I will be forced onto Vista at some point coming up. I already heard of the plannings for a mass upgrade.
Also, that means that I will need to support it coming up, and I dont want to. That is why I am re-training for a new position in a few months, leave this Vista crap aside.

I believe the difference when locked out of XP is that you can still boot in Safe Mode and use your PC. Such will not be the case with Vista.

The original poster was just quoting the first part of the article. I thought the same thing until I actually read the article

is Sonja, a TR Staffer, who was just starting this thread.

I have a feeling that before Vista hits the shelf there will be a work around by hackers and crackers.

It doesn't matter what they do there will always be people using Illegal versions until MS comes to it's senses and has one OS again, not seven, at a decent price for all.

Another dimension of torture. Welcome to Windows.

Simple, the more cheese, the more holes.
If you like the smell of MS OS, Microsoft Symphonic Orchestra Society, re:M SOS (Mom, HELP!).

I think is good Microsoft use new ANTI-PIRACY technology. The Piracy of products from Microsoft is in 80% because they are very EXPENSIVE!!!. If the Prices of S.O. Microsoft was only 30$, and Office antother 30$, I think lot of people will bought it.

Microsoft is EXPENSIVE, no more lies about thinks it can do. It hangs, it is not perfect, but works. But prices never would be more than first 20-30$ of MSDOS 3.2.

Get the prices competitive and affordable, you nip any piracy in the bud.

M$s real problem is in SE Asia, where the cost of Vista is more than a months salary.

Given the choice of feeding their family, or the black market, it is an obvious choice.

So the obvious cause of any piracy is M$ themselves, however things like WGA do not tackle the problem, it merely irritates the home market. Extremely high prices for a new product, like Vista, are also going to add to this problem. No wonder the masses are fleeing.....

the solution is so simple, it is in plain sight

marketing formula, which is "Charge all the traffic will bear, then add 10%."

is to find out what the market will bear...

....then sell for TWICE that.

When Windows 98 was about to be released, market research found out what the market price of it should be, this was overruled, and it was sold for double that.

I would, so long as I don't have to call India every time I installed it.

and don't use WGA. Or better yet, switch to Linux, I did.

You are not calling India every time that you have to Reactivate Windows it only sounds like it.

Actually MS Activation Center is in Singapore or at least it was the last time that I asked them which now is a long time ago.

Col

Why we can barely make out the English that is supposed to be in the Conversation.
I just had this problem four days ago and was told I was talking to Redmond, Yeah RIGHT!!! I kid you Not, I honestly couldn't make out his English, makes you feel real good about a Supposed American Product now doesn't it?
Then if we dare complain, well we're the Racists, what a load of crap.
Sorry, still fuming.Don't like being taken for a fool.
Regards
Aaron

The guy I wanted to speak to wasn't in the building so I got one of his offsider. At least his accent isn't overly thick and I can understand him fairly well.

The solution is try a Repair Install and if that doesn't work try an In-place Install. A real solution to a problem that just shouldn't be happening and worse still looks as if it will continue to happen for a long time to come.

Well as they say No Good Turn Ever Goes Unpunished! I'm going to have remember this next time.

Col

I just sent you a couple of little programs I found a few eyars back, that may help you doing XP tweaks, don't know if they'll help with this issue. But they do allow all sorts of fancy tweaks. One even allows you to change the seriel number of owner name in the registry settings.

You should have a Thank you reply in your In Box right now unless you've already seen it.

I really have a bad feeling about this one and I'm not looking forward to the fix whatever that may be.

Currently I rolled back the BIOS Date till the last time that I know that it was on the Net and that did nothing but I wasn't expecting much just hoping that it might do something interesting. The Rescue Install has done absolutely nothing so tomorrow I'll hit it with an In-place Install and get it working again.

I just hope that he's [the owner] is having a good laugh at my expense.

If the Quacks had not of got him off the Booze and Smokes he most likely would still be alive today. It's a real bastard when you follow the Quacks directions get the all Clear and then die 3 days latter after being told that you are in 100% health and will live to well over 100 years of age.

Col

I too called Microsoft today and spoke with one of their, "representatives".
I am looking for a copy of the Vista RC2 that I understand was just put out a few weeks ago, then vanished just as quickly.
What I got was blank. He told me they didn't put out any RC2 and that I must have misinterpreted.
Now I'm scratching my head.
People are reporting on a non-existent program? I've read about it and wanted a copy so as to complete my collection, that being Vista Bet2 Vista RC1 and now this one which supposedly doesn't exist.
So now I', m all turned around. Is it or is it not out there and if so, why is Microsoft so dead against re-issuance.
The accent, by the way was thicker than usual, but I was able to make him out.
I love it, then they tell you their from Texas.
Regards
Aaron

I too called Microsoft today and spoke with one of their, "representatives".
I am looking for a copy of the Vista RC2 that I understand was just put out a few weeks ago, then vanished just as quickly.
What I got was blank. He told me they didn't put out any RC2 and that I must have misinterpreted.
Now I'm scratching my head.
People are reporting on a non-existent program? I've read about it and wanted a copy so as to complete my collection, that being Vista Bet2 Vista RC1 and now this one which supposedly doesn't exist.
So now I', m all turned around. Is it or is it not out there and if so, why is Microsoft so dead against re-issuance.
The accent, by the way was thicker than usual, but I was able to make him out.
I love it, then they tell you their from Texas.
Regards
Aaron
This page is really fouled up, sorry if this is a double.First you write then sign than ae brought back here.?

That I've seen was the RC1 or 5600 Build or was that the 5560 Build? There has been nothing newer than that but if you really want the RC2 Beta my best guess is buy the original version released to business.

MS has a Product Launch here on November 8 th my birthday so instead of relaxing I'm attending a MS Meeting for the Product Launch of Vista and Office 2007. At a rough guess as the RC1 release is fairly recent and the product launch is so close I would say that what would normally be the RC2 Bets will be classed as the Vista Ultimate for Business. After all they have their own IT staff to fix up what no longer works.

Col

http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/window-on-windows/?p=335

titled- At a Glance: Installing RC2

Why not ask him where he got his copy.

not using one of the Indian boiler rooms, they don't let them near the phone until their fake accent in note and English dialect perfect. Spoek with one, I KNEW I was talking to India, but it sure sounded like down south alabammy y'all.

I lost a hard drive, completely wiped it out.This was a 200Mb Seagate.
Caused to have to do a full re-install.
When the time came, I had to Activate it,.
I called the number and spoke to a Helpdesk operator.
I must say, I was treated with Kid Gloves. The staff were very considerate and caring.
However one little glitch did emerge.
During our conversation, I asked how many times I would have to go thru gh this in terms of getting activated. Once they decided your no thief and that you are in fact legal, then ,are you ready? {They} assign you a new number. You don not get to use your own ever again.
When I asked how long this would go on, they answered forever.
So now I know.
If I crash and have to do a full re-install, it will be upon activation that I will receive my new number.
I supposed I could get used to this but somehow it doesn't feel right. No Offense to Microsoft, but I would much prefer having my own constant number. One that I can uses Over and over again,. One would think that the number would i.d. me sufficiently.
Apparently not.
So from now on, If I crash and rebuild, I can on get my number from Microsoft directly.
I have now begun to think of them as the repository of numbers to come.
By the way, the number is issued at their discretion, there is no set pattern.
I'm still trying to swallow this one.
Bottom line, is that no matter how long it goes, it will always be they who issue a new number for me, I no longer have one of my own. Even the one I have, cannot be used again.
Takes some getting used to.
But I'll get there.
Regards
Aaron

I think that anything that is worthwhile will be cracked sooner or later.
If Vista would be very cheap (50$ maximum) nobody would be so stupid to install a pirate version.
If everyone had a bike nobody would think to steal someone else's bike...

Microsoft isn't worried about piracy. They just found another way to screw consumers out of more money. This time it is businesses that are paying not indivual users though. IT departments of small comanies won't be able to upgrade easily. I have 50pls PCs in my comapany. Not very many I agree but have you tried to do a role out on 50 computers that you have to activate individually. I have and it sucks. I was hoping to convince my employer to go with volume licensing this time so that I would have an easier time. Not going to happen with this crap MS is pulling. My boss already hates MS's licensing policy for servers. License the server, license each user/PC and then a license for the PCs OS. I mean for 50 users in a MS Server environment not including SQL or Exchange, which having both of those triples the server and server access licensing costs, costs a small company approximately $15,000 not including the hardware. Again not a lot of money however it is when your entire annual IT budget is $20,000. Microsoft is driving my employer to linux. My employer has seen linux work in his previous employment history. He likes to believe it can be implemented anywhere. So we already have one brand new Linux Red Hat server. It wont take much longer to get more to replace at least 3 more of my 5 servers.

before it hits the shelf

Unfortunately Microsoft has not been able to implement any software innovation without mis- behaving code. All that's going to happen with this latest 'innovation' is that piraters will find their way around registration and regular people who legitimately license Vista will be subjected to having to spend their valuable time proving to Microsoft that they haven't stolen the software... on an ongoing basis since Microsoft will continue to harass you each time you try to do an update. How about if Microsoft 'volunteers' to pay the customer $10 every time they are falsely identified as a pirater? That would make it a little more interesting.

How about a $1 compensation to each customer for every time a BSOD happens?

oooooooo we all can dream of being rich....

As full of holes as Microsoft OS is, not long. Perhaps that's what the "O" in Billy's OS was really meant to represent. =:-0

Or, perhaps "Operating" System really is accurate, because they're always having to "Operate" on it!!! Yuk, yuk, yuk.

Oh, I'm just so full of myself this morning, but, puulleeeaassee, why doesn't he just offer the OS for free and charge for fixes, patches and updates to enlarge his already bloated bank account.

But wait, that would mean Redmond would have to produce a quality OS first time 'round or no one would want the schlock anywhere near their computer for fear of spending hundreds of dollars a year, month, week, (day, even?) purchasing the endless patches, updates, patches to patches and updates, etc., etc. that we contend with now.

Billy wouldn't be able to get a computer manufacturer or sales outlet to put his buggy hole-ridden software on their machines to save his life. Why would anyone buy a box with inferior software that's going to cost them mega-bucks for as long as they use it, over another less buggy OS, Suite, & what-have-you.

Just think of the $$$ saved in workforce productivity alone! Then we have to repeat the same scenario at home, churches, schools & meeting houses. Wouldn't it be great if we could bill Bill for those hours spent patching? Not to mention all those additional hours recovering from damages incurred by the patches themselves!

The benefits wouldn't be exclusively for the consumer either. Think of all the $$$ Gates would save by not having to deal with licensing at all. No tracking, no cracking, no fancy anti-piracy technology, no expensive holographic logos. Redmond could put all those dollars into producing a carefully developed, fully tested product instead.

No, really. Think on this. Personal computers, once considered a luxury, have long outgrown the category of merely elective electronics for the affluent set. My children's homework, my work and both mine and their lives revolve around computers. Indeed, in many households, it has become the only electronic source of communication with, and information about, the outside world. Much like land-line telephones in their heyday, they've reached the status of a utility. But I dare say there would have been a lot fewer of them in use if they didn't work right half the time or constantly had to be tweaked to get to work right or worse still, be SAFE to use!

So, if all OS's are free sans the fixes & updates, then the market would truly determine who the top dog in the computing world would be instead of some monopolist offering kick-backs to computer manufacturers & resellers to smother the globe with inherently poor software workmanship.

The one flaw I found with all copies of Windows is the way it stores it's database/registry.

Eventually hackers will be able to find or write a key to bypass the automatic registration. It'll take some time, but they will be able to do it.

The one flaw I found with all copies of Windows is the way it stores it's database/registry.

Eventually hackers will be able to find or write a key to bypass the automatic registration. It'll take some time, but they will be able to do it.

The one flaw I found with all copies of Windows is the way it stores it's database/registry.

Eventually hackers will be able to find or write a key to bypass the automatic registration. It'll take some time, but they will be able to do it.

The one flaw I found with all copies of Windows is the way it stores it's database/registry.

Eventually hackers will be able to find or write a key to bypass the automatic registration. It'll take some time, but they will be able to do it.

Step right up! 5 bucks a chip and call it anything you want! V, J, or D! Step right up.

First you buy the product, my case, Win XPPro, $189.00 +Tax and change Canadian and then on top of that I am forced to buy a hard drive that I neither need or want but due to a Microsoft stipulation and agreement with firms I must buy something, "Anything" that goes inside the computer.
I'm ok in Ram therefore I bought a hard Drive.
Now I install my XPPro put in the new number and voila, all is well, so far.
I then crash and need to re-install so I do so, twice. What I am not aware of is that during all of this, I am only "Allowed" to re-install three time and then I have to call Microsoft.
By now I'm Furious.
I call them and they very nonchalantly tell me to punch in a whole new set of numbers and it is HERE that I am told that whenever I re-install, I need to re-activate and then get a new number from Microsoft. "FROM NOW ON", forever no less.
Then on top of all that, Microsoft, under the guise of protectionism has figured out a way to simply hit the switch and you are out of a computer.
You'll forgive me if I find this Disgusting form of Extortion.
In every other field that you can think of, when you buy something it's YOUR's, no strings.
Now we're at the point whereas whether we have paid or not we are FORCED to prove ourselves to Microsoft Auld Nauseaum.
I find this enraging.I didn't pay the kind of money that I have so that I have to ask permission for my system to run.
I bought and paid for it, it's mine and I am the one who should be deciding whether or not when it will run, not Microsoft. This is the only enterprise where such disreputable two faced hypocritical conduct is tolerated. It's called Discriminating Extortion.
My question is therefore, " Where is the US Justice department?
Where are the Authorities, where are the powers that be, or has Bill bought them out too?
Is it because they can only take on poor Martha? Is that why they won't look into this?
I tire of Microsoft intrusion.
The Bill is paid, the product is mine. Contrary to popular "and stupidly accepted" Belief, I didn't by a piece of plastic while Microsoft so generously allows me to use the information on it. I bought a fully functional and working system and this is what I expect to get.
What really amazes me is the lack of complaining on the part of those who are supposed to know better. Those in the Know???
If ever there was a case for the FBI and the Justice Dept. Congress this is it, if only they had the Guts to look into it. No much easier to go after Martha.
I am Furious, Not only at Microsoft, but especially at the lack of activity that emanates from these so called Geniuses that promote themselves as people with the knowledge, within the loop, In the know,On the inside,.Where are they Now? Where's the ranting and raving?
There is no way that I am the only one that see's this rip off for what it really is.
Well coordinated and orchestrated Extortion.
I could have sworn it was against the law, but I guess the Justice Dept, are too busy chasing down Bin Laden look alikes,that way they don't Really have to do anything.
Apologies for the tone, but if it happens to you, then you'll speak and feel as I do.
Thanks you for letting me vent a little.
Warmest Regards
Aaron

Now that you have the thing working the way that you want it to work change the Video Card add more Ram and another HDD and see what happens.

You guessed it you have to reactivate it again because there have been changes made tot he system so it's no longer original.

This used to drive me totally insane when I used OEM MS Stuff as with one machine which was a test rig for new hardware I was reactivating the system several times a week just because I was testing out some new hardware. I think that everyone at MS Activation Center here knew me by my voice.

I've long since moved past that after being accused of Piracy when I added 6 new SCSI HDD's to my main workstation that at the time was running XP Pro OEM and just because it had 2 CPU's and built in SCSI it was considered by MS as a Server.

I at first went with all Volume license stuff and forgot about OEM stuff all together and then walked away from MS and started using Linux again. Now I only have 3 machines with Windows on them one with XP Pro, one with 98SE and one with Vista soon to be 2 machines as I'm going to be playing with the 64 Bit version as well.

I need to keep the XP Pro machine around because I find that I start giving the wrong instructions to get a system working remotely the same with 98 as I still have a few users with that running and well I need to try Vista so I know just how long a Hospital stay that I'll need when it's released. I've found out that I'm suffering from a newly discovered disease called Information Overload and I need to be cured. Well actually I don't want the problems that will come with Vista so I've found my out till everything is sorted.

And I'm sneaking in my NB loaded with Debian so I can keep looking to see what's happening that should stretch out the Cure long enough so that when I come back to work everything has been sorted.

Col

About Linux or I'd be giving them the once over. I can't beleive this, we get new Ram and have to ask permission??
Man I'm sick of Microsoft monopolizing and we do nothing except complain between ourselves. I would like to see real action, real jurisprudence involvement. I would like to see them investigated by the Justice Dept on the manner in which they do Business.Starting with the EULA agreement form that you MUST sign before continuing. You've bought and paid for the product, then comes the installation and you run into this joke [On Us] they call EULA and are forced into signing it or the installation will not proceed. This is choice?You know nothing of the product that you're about to put in yet are required to agree to certain terms and conditions that under ordinary circumstances you would refuse. However since you don't get to see anything until you've signed you're stuck, and this is Legal???
What the He...is wrong with this picture?Sign first and then we'll let you look at the car, not before.I amazes me that they have gotten away with this for so long. I can only hope that enough hammering on the door of what is laughingly refered to as the Justice Dept and they might wake up to this scam.
As for me, Acton one way or another, is forthcoming, even if it means dumping my Brand new XPPro and getting a Pirated copy, and I'm not kidding.
I've had Microsoft, they don't give a damn about us, fine,it's a game that two can play.
HEAR ME MICROSOFT??? I can and wil play your dirty little game, See you in court.
Aaron

The EULA was written under USA law, here in Australia it violates various laws and those sections have no legal standing, our laws override their garbage. Same should apply in your legal jurisdiction.

I recently switched to SimplyMEPIS Linux www.mepis.org and also tried Ubuntu, both are end user versions and can be installed and used by a newbie, the same way M$ Whinedoze is. I went with Mepis because I often do a lot more administrator level stuff than most, I found the Mepis acces to those aspects easier for me. Ubuntu gives easy access to most admin functions, but the ones I tend to use most are more easily reached in Mepis.

Both these distrobutions come with a Live CD versions. This means that you can load it onto the Virtual memory and check it out, without it being a full load onto the hard drive.

get Vista sorted out, just another 5 years until the next release.

According to MS Sales Staff they have a 10 year plan.

Every second year there will be a major Service Pack being released and then 2 years latter a new OS Based on the existing version.

It will be a minimum 12 year stay unless MS shoots them self in the foot first and drives the masses to a different OS.

If that happens I can get out sooner,

Col

worry about anything but MS X(tra) P(oor) Pro(stitution) software, and Linux

That I'll bee seeing anything of Vista for a very long time at the moment.

Even if I have to supply New Unopened OEM copies with new hardware and load XP Pro, that will most likely be cheaper than going with a Volume License in the short term anyway.

I could switch most over to some form of Linux or BSD without them realizing but there is the odd workstation that just has to run Windows or at least a few Windows Applications like MYOB being the main offender as they will not accept anything else and I've even tried showing several people MYOB running on Linux with either Win 4 Lin or Code-weavers but no one is having a bar of it at the moment.

Now If only I could stop telling people to log in as root and do something on a XP Platform it might save quite a lot of time and some really funny questions. Also telling them to use the bash command has some interesting replies ranging from them asking me where I expect them to get a lump of 4 X 2 to someone telling me that fork lift forks are not heavy enough.

I must be getting old as I'm not getting any fun out of desktops running Windows anymore but there are a couple of people that I do get a good laugh out of when I tell them to Boot the system I get back comments like Just wait a minute while I put on my steal toe caps or Are you Kidding I'll break my foot!

I've probably just had a bad couple of days and need another Hospital stay. If I try to start swinging from the Fluro's and insisting that I'm a gorilla that should give me 12 hours without a computer but after that my ever loving staff will drop in a NB with either a CDMA Wireless adapter already setup so that can keep in contact with me or a mobile phone connector and several mobile phones it really depends on how quickly they can get something at the time as to what will happen. My last stay I had 3 mobile phones and 1 NB and I never made a voice call from the mobiles I just ran the batteries flat connecting to the Internet. Hopefully next time that will come up with a cheaper solution but even Telstra's CDMA WiFi top Plan only is good for 10 hours per month before starting to incur excess charges so maybe the mobile phones are cheaper.

Col

made legal in their anti-piracy legislation that RIAA funded through the houses, I think they call it the Digital Media Act, or something like it. What will be interesting, is how the EU take to the MS 'off' switch in Vista. Here in Australia, MS had to put in a free number and don't ask much before giving the new codes, seems the gov't didn't like the process either.

I couldn't agree more.
The Governments however could have the power if they wanted it.
I know where I'd like to put a switch, but I don't think Bill would let me.
:^O
Regards
AAron

I have just returned from a now dead customers place where out of the goodness of my heart I look after the existing computer. He was in business and his wife needs to keep a copy of his business documents for at least 5 years for Tax Purposes. Sounds easy right?

WRONG!!!!!!!!! Because the computer is very rarely used I have spoken to the ISP and removed the ADSL connection and got them a Dial up connection for $5.50 per month. Now as this machine is now on Dial UP Windows Update has been turned off and WGA has now decided that this is not a Genuine Copy of Windows so it's locking me out of the machine so I can not fix the problem.

Apparently this is the first time in 2 months that they have even attempted to turn it on and there is a lovely white box on the bottom of the screen telling you that this is a Pirate Copy of Windows not even that it might be but it actually is. Now I know that this certainly isn't a Pirate copy and short of doing an in place install I'm not sure how to cure the problem as the unit is completely blocked with no opportunity of getting into the OS to turn on WGA and allow it to keep working.

When things like this happen MS should be made to pay for their Crappy Software!

Anyway I'll try turning back the Date in BIOS and see if I can get in that way but I'm far less than happy about the entire situation.

Col

Hal... This is outrageous!

Do you think the network change (removal of ADSL network device) is what triggered WGA to determine the hardware was not authorized anymore?

When you find out what you think triggered this, please post back and let us know.

Thanks!

For a small business a one man towing company. When the owner died I pulled the ADSL connection as the wife could no longer afford to pay for something that was previously Company Business and as she is only keeping the computer for the Tax records and occasionally surfing the web and I do really mean Occasionally, I've just logged into their ISP and looked at their usage over the last 4 months it came to all of 35 minutes several months ago and was probably the last time that I was there running Windows & AV Updates most likely.

At that time I turned off Windows Update as it was hogging all the available Bandwidth when they where logging onto the Internet through the Dial Up Modem. That in itself was a lovely job as I did it during the wake after the funeral pulling the ADSL and fitting a Dial Up Modem wasn't my idea of fun but they needed to cut the connection ASAP so I got the job.

Apparently after several complaints of the web pages loading slowly and I do mean slowly I realized that Windows Update was downloading a heap of stuff and using just about all the available bandwidth so I turned it off to save then the inconvenience as they where only spending a few minutes at a time on line so any downloads from MS where a wasted effort. That was a couple of months ago and apparently according to the Wife of the dead guy it hasn't been turned on since.

All I can think of is that with longer than 30 days of Windows Update being turned off Windows XP Pro has spat the dummy and no longer wishes to play at all. This particular copy was the original XP Pro and has had SP1 & 2 applied without a problem as well as WGA and till tonight I thought that it was working well. But as I got hit with the call at around 5.30 PM I'm leaving it alone for the time being even though I do have a 24 hour Call line I just don't trust myself to deal nicely with MS tonight. I currently have thoughts of staking the head of the MS Legal Department naked across the top of an ant hill and pouring mollass all over her and then allowing cattle into the paddock. It will not kill her but it sure as hell is going to be uncomfortable.

That is the nicest thing that I can think of at the moment so I'll allow a bit of time to cool off. Of course having the words of the Widow ringing in my ears still with her saying I was never supposed to have a computer and my husband is getting back at me from the grave didn't help much. So I'm slightly less than happy with the entire situation.

The guy in question was a great customer and more of a friend rather than a customer so I really felt obligated to do the right thing by the wife. After all how hard is it going to be to drop in for a couple of minutes every couple of months to check up on the computer? Hopefully turning back the Date in BIOS will cure the problem but I'm not even thinking of holding my breath in anticipation. I'll talk to MS first to see what they recommend. I know that I'm wasting my time and energy but what the Hell they should be paying for this one so the least that I can do is tie up the Senior Tech here in AU for a few hours for a fix even if it means uninstalling WGA. He never should have given me his direct phone number.

Now I wonder if using the Senior MS Tech in AU for shark bait is considered as murder of Justifiable Homicide.

After all I do need a nice relaxing fishing trip and seeing this guy screaming out for mercy while being dragged behind a power boat has a certain appeal just at the moment. And I actually like this guy so imagine how I would be feeling if he was a total MS Company Man. This guy is actually quite good and accepts that there are other possibilities to MS and just does his job so I can relate to him quite well as I was exactly the same when I had positions like that previously. I had to flog off the company products but I didn't need to believe that they where the only thing available unlike many people do.

Col
I'm really feeling evil right now.

you'll get arrested for cruelty to animals, you can't feed them poisonous BS, you should know that. I do have it on good authority, that since the M$ people are so thick headed, and full of BS, they make great boat anchors, just tie their feet and hands together, and they sink straight to the bottom, fall on their sides, and they'll hold a medium sized motor cruiser in a heavy gale.

There is a Rouge White Pointer that has killed someone and needs hunting down and killing I don't think that under those circumstances they enforce the law that strongly about Cruelty To Animals.

Oh I can alway wish.

Well it's just gone 11.00 am & I still haven't rung MS as I'm still cooling down I still don't trust myself to be nice just yet.

But I'll have to ring them before the end of today.


Col

I'm laughing my tooshie off here,.
Never heard it put quite that way but couldn't agree with you more.
Thanks for the smile.
Right now, it feels great.
Regards to you D. E.
Aaron
Boat anchors....I LOVE IT

Knowing my Luck I would be arrested for Water Pollution if I tried that one out.

I'm in a No Win Position.

Col

nead is a NO WINDOWS situation

sorry too good an opportunity to let it go by

I fought with that for ages, that's why I finally gave up and switched to Linux. Yeah I'm still learning about parts of Linux (so I want to learn the lot, sue me) but I no longer have to worry about my system locking up every time I go to M$ for a super critical security update.

Have you spoken to M$ tech staff yet, be prepared for a VERY long wait when you do, most are flat chat working out where the bleeding 'Start' icon is.

That is the first thing tomorrow to address and I at least have a special phone number to ring to get MS Partners Support.

That means that they know where the power switch is located and cuts back the need to have to go through 25 minutes of working out how to turn it on.

The first thing that I'll be told is that I really do have a Pirate copy. I suppose that's possible after all I do buy the stuff from the MS Authorized reseller so anything is possible.

I got hit with this one around 5.30 pm tonight just as I was walking out the door to return another computer to its home at a local surgeons place. Apparently because one guy thinks that I'm great he has all his mates call me up with the slightest problem. Unfortunately this one wasn't a slight problem it was a massive nightmare to deal with. I knew that I had problems when I was told that he was running ME I should have headed for the hills then but silly me thought How Hard Can It Be? This was the closest that I've come to actually working on a machine with pirate software as it was a Gateway that had been repaired with a replacement M'Board, CPU and RAM so when I dropped in the ME Restore Gateway CD I got a lovely message that this recovery CD was only for Gateway computers.

Apparently when they fix them for you UG they don't need to supply the new Install Cd's so I had a slight problem to say the least. I just hate it when I get hit with the work of Cowboys they drive me crazy. But I got a copy of ME loaded and changed the product Key over to the one that matched the COA so everything is A OK.

Now I have someone offering me free Transplants whenever I want one but he refused to replace my Brain as he claims that he still needs the one that I'm using at the moment.

Col

I see that MS still bring's out the best in us. Amazing.
I would love to see somebody "Anybody" with actual Power look into this Rat's nest they call Microsoft.
Now they want to be able to turn off and lock out the owner at their convenience on the so called basis of security?.
Is there a new Yoga Class in Redmond that says if you sit on your head until all the blood rushes to the top and then you come up with these "Genius" Ideas as you are coming around. M$Yoga.
This is beyond contempt, it's insane and the gutless Justice Dept is allowing this to go on?.Can't do anything, "Bull",Create the Law.
I Wonder what the reaction would be if this were tried by The GM and the other Car Companies of Future Shop Home Furnishings.
Picture it, Can't validate? no problem they just hit the switch and your Couch just folds up and rolls home back to the warehouse "Owned by Bill"
Sounds about right.
One thing, it sure id nice to be talking to you all again. Had been swamped but finally coming out from under.
Regards
Aaron

about all this is that with all their screwing around, Microsoft is making us look and feel like Criminals. Certainly we are being treated as such and we seem to have no recourse.
Does a receipt and proof, mean nothing anymore in America, Canada etc.
Does the fact that we can PROVE that the merchandise was bought and paid for legitimately mean nothing anymore? What the Hell' going on in Redmond??
By what right of Divinity does Bill Gates and Co. dare presume to override the basic rules of business.
Then to add fire to the smoke, they throw in a few morons who couldn't answer a straight question if their life depended on it.
And I particularly love the part about how they are from Texas, or Louisiana and yet the Korean or Pilipino is so thick that you can't make them out.
When you ask that they repeat, you get attitude. Attitude, no less.
Then I tear into them. I am no racist, but I'm not going to sit there and be treaded like an idiot by someone who can't talk English no matter which way you turn the page.
And you may rest assure I'll tolerate no crap or attitude from them.
I never asked to feel the way I do now,I was made to feel this way, by Microsoft's picayune method of doing business.
If my numbers are real and they correlate, then I Fail to see why I should tolerate this kind of behavior?
Having done nothing wrong, I tolerate nothing. So unless Mr. gates want's a war,"Cause this will get around" he should at the very least, spend a few Buck and teach them Proper English. I am no criminal and the day will NOT come where I accept being treated as one by Microsoft.
Thanks for the Patience
Regards
Aaron

I ran into the same problem only not for the same reasons.
Bu the result was the same, so what I did was use the Start/Run/System Restore. It popped up and I set her back as far as she'd go and then let her go.
Got my system back that way. Not sure if it would work, but defenitely worth a try.
Regards
Aaron

I've tried rolling back the BIOS Date and doing a Rescue Install both of which have done absolutely nothing at all.

At the moment I can get to the Welcome Screen and then I see a lovely This Is Not A Genuine Version Of Windows logo in the bottom right hand corner of the screen followed by another Window that opens asking you to fix now but by the time that opens both the keyboard & mouse have been deactivated and no longer work. I'm a bit stuck at the moment but when I get a bit of time I'll do an In-Place install apply SP1 and then forget about the entire thing. That should cure any existing problems and stop any future problems arising.

Col

There is nothing and I repeat nothing that they can do to lock it down that can not be un-locked trust me when I tell you they could really care less about the small % of retail sales they may lose, it's just smoke and mirrors so that they can focus on the true goal Vista being on every retail and cop. PC in the world (simple truth till MiroTards go to a web based delivery bundle) they are never going to lock it down and even that is not 100% if there is a disc and there is info on that disc it will be got.

there be no a free OS in sight then me hearty's, arrrrrgh.

Windows XP right now requires activation in 30 days or you are locked out of the OS - where did the writer get the idea that it only prevents updates? What is so "new" about thsi "feature' in Vista?

I beleive the difference between XP and Vista lockouts after the 30 day activation period is over is that with XP you can still boot in safe mode and use your computer. Vista will allow you to web-browse for 1 hour and then log you off.

And yes, there will be a zero day workaround !

Believe me, I've learned the hard way when I was trying to troubleshoot this for one of my clients. Once you get locked out, you get locked out. XP is no exception to this.

I do know that Windows XP will not let you go to Windowsupdate.microsoft.com unless you have activated. Which doesn't stop automatic updates.

I haven't tried to access safemode in XP yet after the 30 days expires so I can't comment there.

If Vista locks you out completely I would hope for the legit users there's a way to activate without re-installing.

I for one try to wait as long as possible before activating when I make a new machine for a client with a retail/oem license as I don't trust Microsoft/drivers/etc. And I'd hate to worst case senario us all the "free" re-activations on XP before the client gets the machine. IE DOA critical hardware like a motherboard that Windows likes to blue screen when you just drop another in with out re-installing.

A funy thing happened yesterday. I had been trying and failing to get Vista Beta2 to install on one of my computers.
So I popped upstairs and tried on another and slower comp that had a newer motherboard (both Asus) and lo and behold, Vista installed without a murmer. The version was the official DVD from MS.
"Great" says I and promptly tried to install a downloaded version of RC1. "Bingo" it failed!!
Which leads me to guess that the great MS has a lousy download capability but a great marketing sense as if you PAY for the DVD, it will then install perfectly.
Am I right in this guess? As for activation. It is a pain in the ear and is predicated that all of us are born pirates. If this is true then I guess I'll just have to switch to OSX or Linux.
I'm certainly not going to waste money on a company that assumes I'm using an illegal,i.e. unpaid for, from their point of view, OS etc.
Little Billie Gates can go suck his fingers.

A funy thing happened yesterday. I had been trying and failing to get Vista Beta2 to install on one of my computers.
So I popped upstairs and tried on another and slower comp that had a newer motherboard (both Asus) and lo and behold, Vista installed without a murmer. The version was the official DVD from MS.
"Great" says I and promptly tried to install a downloaded version of RC1. "Bingo" it failed!!
Which leads me to guess that the great MS has a lousy download capability but a great marketing sense as if you PAY for the DVD, it will then install perfectly.
Am I right in this guess? As for activation. It is a pain in the ear and is predicated that all of us are born pirates. If this is true then I guess I'll just have to switch to OSX or Linux.
I'm certainly not going to waste money on a company that assumes I'm using an illegal,i.e. unpaid for, from their point of view, OS etc.
Little Billie Gates can go suck his fingers.

A funy thing happened yesterday. I had been trying and failing to get Vista Beta2 to install on one of my computers.
So I popped upstairs and tried on another and slower comp that had a newer motherboard (both Asus) and lo and behold, Vista installed without a murmer. The version was the official DVD from MS.
"Great" says I and promptly tried to install a downloaded version of RC1. "Bingo" it failed!!
Which leads me to guess that the great MS has a lousy download capability but a great marketing sense as if you PAY for the DVD, it will then install perfectly.
Am I right in this guess? As for activation. It is a pain in the ear and is predicated that all of us are born pirates. If this is true then I guess I'll just have to switch to OSX or Linux.
I'm certainly not going to waste money on a company that assumes I'm using an illegal,i.e. unpaid for, from their point of view, OS etc.
Little Billie Gates can go suck his fingers.

It will let you go to the MS update site, but unless you install the WGA Active-X plugin, you won't be able to download any updates. Also, a lot of the new utils also require that you install the WGA plugin to allow for download and install. Windows Defender (formerly MS Anti-Spyware) is one of those things.

Maybe it's the version of XP, or whatnot, but I've managed to do all the updates without activating. I just uncheck the WGA. And I think once or twice I've even installed the wga, but never did the actual activation.

I know to get the defender it does check, but that's an active download you instigate, I'm talking the background autoupdates.

If you have XP Pro from HP, Dell or actually any Volume License Product you Can Not Activate It.

However the WGA is a totally different kettle of fish. If you Do Not install that product you Can Not download any new Patches as the System sees the Product as PIRATE! If you do download & install WGA there is a 20% chance that it is going to break your already Legal Product and require you to approach MS for a new Product Key that you'll then need to reactivate if you don't have a Volume License Product.

Even after you have satisfied MS that you have a Genuine MS Product they still take about 10 days to E-Mail you the replacement Product Key which is a lot of help to you if your system has been closed down and is no longer working.

With 1 computer there is no big problem but when you are looking at a large number on a Volume License I personally Believe that MS should be paying for all the product Key Changes to allow the System to work properly. I have 1 client who has a VLA for 2,500 XP Pro computers and on every Service Pack I've had to change every Product Key and then when WGA became available I had to change the product key again. That was only a few months after MS had issued a replacement Product Key to allow SP2 to be installed.

At that particular client it takes 10 Techs 4 days to change the product keys if you can actually get to the computers without any problems. That is 320 Man Hours which has to be paid for without taking into account the requirement to ring MS for a replacement Product Key and being treated like a Criminal for asking for what is rightfully yours in the first place. MS breaks their Software and we have to not only prove that the broken Software is Legal while being treated like a Criminal but then spend thousands of $ to change the keys over.

What makes the entire thing worse in my books is that I only provide Service to this place and I'm the one who has to deal with MS but am not the one who sold the product in the first place but I get to cop all the grief!

Col

it is manual updating that is restricted without WGA, Auto updates work normally.

Also, a system is not seen as a pirate without WGA, it merely restricts what you can d/l via M$ sites.

when it thinks the loss of revenues is all due to piracy. The truth is, more an more people are turning to Linux or something else, because M$ continues to alienate the users. Satisfaction with M$ products is going down, customer service even worse, & pricing way above reasonable is driving people away in masses.

So, rather than look in the mirror, M$ wants to say it's all piracy. How can they say what percentage of software is pirated; does everyone who uses a M$ product (including pirated) answer a survey and honestly say they are using pirated software? What about all the legit users who just want to be left alone & allowed to use their computers in peace.

My first computer with XP (paid extra for XP Pro) locked me out in just a little over a month - not because I didn't activate, but because it crashed & I had to reinstall. Since I had the comp over 30 days, the reinstall demanded immediate activation - no grace period - no safe mode - no access to my computer until I entered activation code! This was about 4 or 5 years ago. Of course it was on a Friday night & no one available for phone support until Monday. This was my personal computer that I used on weekends and I could not use it all weekend. I paid too much $ for this BS. That won't happen again!

So when I switch to Linux instead of paying more $ for Vista or any other M$ product that wants to compromise my security, invade my privacy, & take complete control of my personal property, M$ will just chalk it up to more piracy instead of trying to find out why their sales are not what they expected.

I'm also tired of the $$ they charge for bug laden software. I've checked out linux and the office alternatives, they are looking much better every day!

I too have grown tired of the whole M$ overcharging for their products.

I spent a year in what I call "Linux hell", I wanted to get away from the product activations, the cost and mostly the famous Ctrl, Alt, Delete sequence.

After using Fedora Core 4 & 5, various Debian based Linux OSs including Debian proper, and Suse. I concluded that Fedora was the most stable and fasted system out there. The big "however" came when having to run my most useful software under the flag of VMware and Windows loaded up in a virtual machine. No matter how hard I tried, I just could not find decent Linux replacements for the apps I used most under Windows.

I am back to using XP PRO adn gave up the ghost on Linux. I agree with a previous post here and will not upgrade to Vista until I really need too and only if the projected prices on Vista OSs come down. For now I will stick with XP PRO.

As for bug laden software, alot of this really is based on the software that is running on the OS itself. I too have had the infamous blue screen or locked program. But that is just it, the program running on Windows locked or was flawed. I had this same problem in Linux too. But in Linux that happened mostly in KDE and not within Gnome.

Bottom line:

It's a Windows world out there, we don't have to like it. But take a pro-active approach to getting things changed. Take part in the MS surveys, write to MS, petition MS to bring there prices down and to make the whole activation and install routines more user friendly. If enough voices are heard in Redmond, things will have to change. After all Microsoft WON'T make any money if people do not want to buy their new stuff coming out.

But piracy helps MS, not hurts them. They live in a state of denial about piracy because the majority of lost revenue is because corporations are fed up with their buggy products and expensive support costs and switching to other operating systems like Linux or Netware.

This whole disscussion is very interesting. MS cries foul people people pirate their software, and they add inconvenience to get people to pay leagally, even if it means inconveniencing the people who do pay. MS punishes all customers because of a few who are dishonest. People cry foul because MS software costs the arm and a leg of your fist born so they pirate software why? Really there are two reasons. 1) They cannot afford it. 2) It is the only thing they know how to use. So if they can't afford it, they steal it.
Now, if you can get copies of Linux for a very small fraction of what you can for windows, doesn't that send a message that MS is also being dishonest with their customers by over charging.

I am an honest person. I do not believe in piracy and for each copy of Windows that I own, I have the original license and it is only installed on one computer. I have kept that license agreement.
However, I do not like to do business with dishonest companies, therefore, because MS is a dishonest company, I simply will not do business with them.
Now people may say that customers were dishonest first, so MS had to be dishonest back, blah, blah, blah. Well, it really doesn't matter who did what first. What matters is doing the right thing. It is not right to pay the arm and leg of my first born to get a leagal copy of Vista and go through the headache of activating and re-activating and re-activating again. It is also not right for me to go down to that same level and pirate their software. So what are my options?

Use something else. If people would stop using their products, it doesn't matter if they blame it on pirates or not, they will loose money and eventually go out of business! If we as users stopped pirating and used something else, or started being honest, then MS would loose market share and be forced to be honest and lower their prices or go out of business.

Download everything, including the WGA items to a Win98SE machine and then burn them onto a DVD.
Need I say more.