Discussion on:

Schedule a restart operation with Windows XP's Shutdown utility

Of course my main servers do NOT have any setting making them rebooting twice a day!

and the policy for rebooting can vary.

and of course I'm talking about a testnig server.
Yet it reboots!
Just ONE little question.
Fragmentation!
how can it be that memory/disks gets fragmented so easily in windows, much more than in other operating systems ?

I have running FreeBSD systems wich daily report memory fragmentation about 0%, and disk fragmentation about 2%.
ALL servers are always accessed by remote terminals (KDE Graphic) and/or telnet!

in windows, after one week use (and daily shutdown) disk fragmentation is reported to be about 40% ! ! ! ! ! (never got a reliable tool for memory fragmentation report under windows)
I should perform a daily Defrag !
According to M$ policy I should perform a FULL backup before every defrag!
But that is not a WorkStation's policy, that's server's!

The majority of the apps which we use are 3rd party program running under windows. Due to cost contraints in some case we are using 6-7 yr old software (QuarkXpress) which is not exactly optimised for Win2K/XP so putting it bluntly it can run poorly if you don't reboot daily on a pc with less than 512MB of RAM.

Unexpected crashes and the like don't free up memory when the programs exit every time, and if you've ever tried to run 2k/XP on 64MB of RAM that's what it can feel like.

Newer versions of the programs (Quark6, Office 2003 for example) don't suffer the same problems, so it all depends on your desktop environments and the software you use.

I've got desktops running as script servers, DHCP, domain controllers for example which don't *need* rebooting ever. They are of course rebooted when patches are applied as the OS dictates (Windows) when we have to apply them. Being a UK based but American owned company we're very hot on security so we get deadlines to apply specific patches. Previous to this we had Windows pcs and servers which weren't rebooted for more than a year at a time. I know other OS's run longer without needing a reboot but we don't use other OS's... but hey such is life.

Regards,

Dean

if I use an OS at the minimum (just few essential services, almost static as DHCP and DNS are not very dynamic applications)
So I do not need to reboot

Means : if I buy e car and use it just to go around in my garden, I do not need any check or refuel or spending ever...

well, you are Right I suppose.

First of all, in order to stay on topic, I think the shutdown tip has some decent applications. If you don't like it, don't use it. Secondly, and don't get me wrong, I'm not an MS basher and I really don't care one way or the other about linux (although it seems some linux folks have issues that will never be resolved in an MS forum --I'd hate to be involved in their relationship support group) --but I digress (like so many previously) Anyhow, I just can't imagine why ANYONE would want to auto-install a server patch that may have been issued and downloaded WITHOUT their prior review. I don't mind the auto-download but I HAVE to review the documentation to see what is affected before allowing the install --nothing worse than having to back out an update that caused problems -provided it CAN be backed out.
Sometimes a reboot is NOT a reboot.

I agree.
Why should everyone install a patch ?
worse
WHY should AutoInstall ?

That's why I think it's useless to try to get a fix on MS patches
Two years ago I was committed in rebuilding network of the firm I'm employed in
New ActiveDirectory, new dns, new security policies... everything from cratches.
After 2 months planning (we are not large, 12 employees, 25 stations...)
SO new policy. NO unnecessary patches ! dictat !

then I get a issue! no way to make an SQL start!
I open a query on M$... after about a week checkings we get a fix. I omitted a patch.
"It is NOT related to ANY service in use or usable by SQL!" I reply!

Yes but THAT patch related to the M$Messanger (which is DISABLED by policy on all stations and servers) updated a DLL which was somehow_I_still_Do_Not_Know related to SQL services...

The problem is not just fixing. Is what you are fixing and WHY !
After e FullWeek stop... we devided to install ALL patches, no more checking.
The cost of checking plus the cost of solving issues is unbearable!!

Yet I must admit that our server do some more reboot, but work fine!

the net result is : You cannot check what M$ patch because you don't know how m$ apps works!
that's why EU community commited M$ to a fine of 2Mil? per DAY , starting two years ago!
That's why I don't consider M$ reliable !

I have dozens of such issues... if anybody interested... just ask!

regards

Fact of the matter is that I'm hard on my machines for both administration and development applications. It is a bit of mess and I know I share some of the blame. Unfortunately, a reboot every so often does help (once every week or two I would say).

Now would I like to forgo the mess and reboots plus Microsoft altogether?

You bet!

But guess what Linux (which I do run) and Mac fans you can't run a tenth of the applications I do, so enjoy your small worlds and imagined superiority. When you get a real application base, let's say within the next ten years, I'll take a serious look at Microsoft alternatives. In the meantime I got some work to do!

Toys - not applications. The reason Mac and Linux don't have as many applications is they're not needed.

I bet your list of essential windows applications includes:

Windows registry editor, registry cleaning tools, defrag tools, disk repair tools, remote desktop control, disk partitioning tools, backup utilities, 3 different media players, archive utilities, network utilities, spyware removal tools, antivirus, firewall...

I guess if you call application development tools (VB, java and C++), web site development apps, Flash production, Adobe Creative Suite (yes, Mac people this is available on a PC but of course it's not as good as yours), SQL Server applications, Crystal reports, and video production applications toys then I guess you are a "real man" and write your own applications in assembly! If that is so, my hat is off to you!

Otherwise, I have to assume you to be a true believer like so many Linux and Mac people. I'm fairly agnostic about technology and will grab the best technology available for the job. That is why I have a toe in Linux at the moment!

If you really read the article it states that you have to enter your username and password n the app in order to run this. Who in their right mind would HARD CODE their password and log-in on their machine? If anybody got access to their machine then they have access to their network. Not a "Best Practice" in any sense of the word.

I posted a reply a little further down. No computers get logged back in. You only enter the username and password for administrative permission. They'll sit and wait for you at the initial login screen.

except for windows utilities... ALL other utilities are available on Unix/Linux systems!

Unix comes with excellent Firewall software and Network utilities...
in Windows you HAVE TO BUY everything...

I'm not against paied software. But I'd like a functional and working software...
not a patch_me_soon nightmare!

The bottom line is that just like some vehicles are designed for certain terrain and type of driving habits, Different OS's have similar points of "superiority" but not everyone can own every type of vehicle to have the best of every world. You have to use what is the best "all around" vehicle for your needs. Bashing a Jeep because it rides rougher than a Caddilac makes no sense...try taking that caddy down a mountan ravine off road! MS Products have their chalenges as do all other OS's but lets face it...it seems to be the "all around" favorite right now at least. Do'nt be angry about it, that won't help Linux get better will it? The point is (as was mentioned earlier), whatever OS is on "top" will be the target for attacks, malware, and yes.... bashing.

As I read the original post, I assumed this was just a friendly FYI. I do have one Windows box that I reboot every week, as there is a significant improvement in the performance of one of the applications (which is another story). This little tip will be a big help to us.

By the way, we run both Windows and Linux. Each have their place and as managers we must determine which is the best solution for each situation. To blindly support one platform is not in the best interest of the companies we work for.

Thanks for the tip.

I cant believe some of the child-like,petty responses. This is supposed to be a place for IT professionals, and IT pros dont go around knocking windows,linux, mac os, etc. As has been said there is a place for each of these os's.
IT pros should have better control of themselves for one thing. They supposedly have an education as well. Why not show it!
Here is a simple article about having a fresh(er)os, in the morning, on some systems that might benefit from same. And IT professionals go off on wild tangents about things not even related to this article. Might as well talk about the bombing in Lebanon, it fits as well as some other posts i have read here.
And, IT pros, starting acting like an IT pro.
Of course, this is not meant for those who posted properly and for those who dont have a perfect command of the english language.
thank you

To the point and very correct!

I think I stated this in a reply above, though not as well as you just did!

Granted everyone is talking about OS issues, but how about security? The article mentions a reboot schedule in which you enter your username and password, TWICE, but doesn't tell you why? If the computer reboots and logs you in automatically that is a problem. You cannot have automatic logins on a network without a security risk. We just have users shutdown the computers when they leave work. This gets rid of security and power failure/spike issues and allows them to get settled while the computer is booting up in the morning.

This is an interesting point. Am I incorrect in thinking that the use of the login creditials is to give the shutdown.exe app the rights to run? I don't think it would reboot and re-login a user's terminal... or is that the second step of this trick?

Has anyone actually used this method? If so, can you post as to your analysis of security risk?

Thanks!

Well, at least not the risk you are worried about. Who knows what other risks might be involved.

When you use the shutdown command on your local or remote computer, it simply shuts the computer down (or reboots it if you use the -r switch). I even use it to do a weekly reboot of our 2000 servers without any problem. I use my office computer with XP Pro to send the remote commands using an account with administrative privledges and every Monday morning we start with freshly rebooted servers.

The servers reboot and sit at the opening logon screen. Nothing is automatically logged in. The username and password is just for administrative rights.

As a user of Microsoft OS's since before Windows 3.1, there are many benefits to restarting a machine. Most of which have little to do with the OS but with the applications running on the system, as others have stated.

To comment about the 'Security risk' of typing in your username/password in the Scheduled Task setup, SecretAgentGuy is correct. It is to give authority to the system to perform the requested action. The system will not log itself in after the reboot without the use of a separate application or task to do so.
Any time a Scheduled Task is created, login credentials must be given -- not just for a scheduled restart. The security is built into the schedule.
For instance, perhaps you have set a security policy that does not allow the "normal" user of a Windows XP system to shutdown or restart their machine. The scheduled task can be set by a user that has been given rights to shutdown/restart the machine. The user that does not have rights can certainly create the Scheduled Task, but it will not perform the task if they don't have rights to do so.

Also, all this Microsoft vs. Unix/Linux/MAC talk is crazy. They're just jealous that they don't have:
1. An OS running on 90+% of systems in the world
2. A catalog of applications (games or otherwise) to even begin to stack up against what will run on a Microsft OS
3. Bill Gates' brain/forward thinking
4. Bill Gates' house

Just my 2 cents.

I have some PCs we use as our time clocks.
If one of these PCs gets rebooted, I have it set to auto logon to a restricted account and bring up the clock-in web page.

QUESTION: If I use an administrator account to schedule the auto reboot, will the PC auto logon into the restricted account or just sit there at the logon prompt?

If your PC automatically logs in after a restart (assuming this is for automatic powerfail recovery) and the shutdown command does not automatically log in, I would assume the computer would behave as if a power failure occurred and simply login to the restricted account.

I tested the auto reboot with the adminitrator account and the PC was able to auto login to the restricted account.
I set auto login with Tweak UI.

Since all users follow policy to its fullest extent I am sure nobody else has this problem... What about using this command and schedule to automatically shutdown a workstation that has been left logged on at night? No matter what OS you run, if a user leaves a workstation logged onto a network where information is available and an unauthorized person accesses that information without any authentication check, that is a problem.

You can set a Security Policy (Local or through the AD) to lock the system or disconnect it from the server at a specific time.
This can help ensure backups complete successfully without needing to skip files that are in use.

Your "tip" is very misleading and is the same wrong advice given by a ZD tip a month ago. (ZD had the strength of character to rebut and withdraw this advice when their teck lab weighed in on what actually happens.) The suggested "shutdown" is nothing of the sort, it is only a deep sleep, the computer is still actually ON and is still drawing and wasting power. Think about it, the computer OS has to be monitoring the clock to determine when to "turn on" the machine. Only a real Shutdown or Hibernate will stop the unnecessary use of power. Is it really all that difficulty to press one button (power on) in the morning? If everyone did this with their computers a huge amount of energy would be wasted and tons of CO2 generated in the process. Way to go!! Why not give out good advice that will help computer users AND not destroy the planet in the process?

Actually, I really think the article is referring to restarting an already running machine. It has nothing to do with having a computer hibernate or do some sort of pseudo-power down. While you are correct, it is a waste of energy to leave a PC up and running for no reason, the idea of being able to use this on servers, which must be kept running 24/7 is quite useful (it is native in 2003 and can be added to 2000 through the Resouce Kit). As for a desktop PC, there are some situations where keeping it running is a necessity. I actually keep my office PC running so that I can VPN in and see if there are any problems without the long drive to physically come in). Restarting it every morning, through the command would be useful. I usually make a point to have everyone power down their systems at the end of the day because like you, I think just letting a PC run idle for no reason is a waste of power.

So only Republicans leave thier computers on overnight? From my experience, it is my Democrat friends that do this, and they have no problems using pirated and stolen software either. It goes along the lines of their anti-capitalistic beliefs.

How childish can you people get? Give it a break. I would have hoped -given some of the titles around here, people could stay on topic and not make it personal.
Use it, don't use it, or offer a better solution, but don't make this a forum for your personal problems or latent issues.
Rather than IT Managers or Directors, I feel like I'm surrounded by 19 year old technicians.
I sure would hate to be a young tech learning from some of you. Do any of you ever plan on becoming CIO's?

CIO could be a Computer Information Officer, or a Completely Idiotic Operator. I think from the postings that several of the posters fall into the second category. If you want to BASH any OS you may do so. Tech Republic was designed (I think) to share insight and information. Bashing any OS does not do anything except take up serious time reading the posts when trying to find something useful.

I tried shutdown.exe on a XP Home Edition computer and discovered that it can be used to schedule a shutdown of that machine, but because XP Home is NOT a business PC it can not control remote shutdowns. Shutdown.exe recognizes computers by name, but not by IP address. Is this a flaw or a security control?

Well put. Especially the part about offering an alternative- not just complaining about the obvious. That's the difference between professionals and talented idiots.

This is proof that a 2 party system is bad. It divides the world int 'us' and 'them'. By definitions 'us' is made up of the good guys, and 'them' is made up of the bad guys. Very easy, you don't have to think.

Thanks for the method. This is just what we needed here to automate the rebooting we've been doing on an irregular basis.

Bruce.. didn't you read the posting rules before you replied? It specifically instructs you to drift off-topic, bad mouth the OS that you're not using, and blame TechRepublic for the ills of society.

I, for one, am greatly dissapointed by your simple, direct, well worded and up-beat comment.



-J

Excellent response SecretAgentGuy! I'd love to have you working in my organization, but your alias sounds a lot more fun.

Let me thanks Windows XP communitry with providing Shutdown.exe commands. it really helped me in automating restarts in my computer.

Thanks,
Sher Zaman

Some may not realize that you can shutdown boxes that you are remotely connected to via remote desktop (or rdesktop in linux) with the shutdown command. It is handy when the GUI option is not available to you (connecting to XP for example). Not earth shattering, but helpful if you didn't know.

WOW!
Mickysoft has disclosed yet another Unix command that has been around for decades.

Thanks, TR and responders, for the useful MS Windows XP tip? I'm sure it will help those supporting MS Windows XP (et al) environments - whether by choice or by mandate. Since the tip does not apply to Linux, alot of wasted reading was needed to get through responder tips and counter-tips (80 comments). Browsing through Linux tips I saw many with no comments, a few, 22 being one of the longer threads. I didn't see any MS Windows XP bigots cluttering what were otherwise succinct, beneficial threads!

Since I am working in a networked environment with "moderate" security requirements, I have a few comments on this whole mess:

1: The scheduled task will work until the user changes his/her password. After that, it will fail until he/she remembers to change the password in the scheduled task. This is not easy to remember to do for experienced users, and for the moderate to beginners, just plain unlikely.

2: For Domain based XP Pro systems, the shutdown command can be used to shutdown or restart remote systems as well, as long as the user issuing the command has the proper rights on the remote system. use the "-m" switch followed by either the computer name or the IP address. command would look like the following:
Shutdown -r -m \\computername

3: OS SchmoS - Who Cares. If it works for you, use it. If you have that kind of control and decision making capability great. For the rest of us poor saps, let us work with the tools provided and get over the chest beating.

would it work if say a user has both xp home and xp professional on a system?

This article was recycled from the future!!!!
http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/window-on-windows/?p=734
The paradox is mind boggling!!!

Some of the "wake on LAN" in the Bios setup would be good, if only I could figure out how to do that via wireless/bluetooth adapter (as my phone comes in range, the computer powers up... or power up the next day, or at 10 pm to do it's AV check/update backup what ever..., then go back to sleep until morning.
Then we would all have a utility that people would rave about. (start writing code folks). This should entirely be possible for corporate networks with wired LAN's..just a bit more difficult for wireless without some timer and self powered device attached.