Hi Everyone,
My name is Robb and I wrote the topic 'Ageism? Good Idea?'.
I wrote this topic to provoke debate about a very important issue in our industry.
I am 55 years old and many of you will have egg on your faces over that bit of knowledge. I have been in the IT industry for more than 15 years and I am now a sage-like soul who now teaches IT technologies to people who want to work in my industry. One of the questions that they ask me, is "Can I get a job at my age in IT?". Because the majority of my students are military Resettlement folk, they are over 35 (in most cases). I always calm their fears by telling them just how tolerant we IT folk are and how age is a real asset. But, to be truthful, I am not sure that this is correct.
To Test this I made myself 'unemployed' and applied for 100 IT jobs. I wrote out a 'proper' CV/Resume and placed my current photograph on it. I stated my age and my qualifications correctly and I also made sure that any referees I stated would respond. Out of the 100 vacancies that I applied for over a two month period I did not received ANY offers of an interview.
I then changed my age and placed a photo of myself taken when I was 30 years old, on the CV. I sent the CV to around 25 companies (some of the original 100 too!) and have received 12 offers of interview and one direct offer of a job. 3 offers came form three of the original companies that did not respond to my 'truthful' CV.
This was not a scientific piece of research, I know that. But I believe that despite the laws about ageism and so on, in my country (UK) and in the USA, the fact remains that ageism is practiced, if not blatently, then in the minds of many of us.
I was intersted to note the many responses to my original article. May I thank all of those who took the time to respond.
I plan to take this issue further, but right now I have to start to earn a living again.
Does anyone have any vacancies?
Best regards - Happy Trails
Robb
Discussion on:
Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!
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I didn't read your previous post because using the word "ageism" made it seem too high-brow to interest me.
I was restructured out of my previous job when my employer was bought by a larger business. Since then I had not taken any steps to regain employment. Initially I intended to take a bit of a vacation from the stress, responsibility, and long hours of IT support. I mostly wanted to get away from incompetent managers. As the months turned into years I found that I could not ever forsee a time when I could bear to work in the typical corporate structure, due entirely to the problems of working with incompetent managers. ( They make me really angry ) Thankfully I've always lived well "below my means" and I've got a lot of money in the bank.
I knew that I would love to work for myself. I'm sure that I would be the best IT manager that I've ever met as well as the best IT support tech/engineer/whatever that I've ever worked with. Since I have such a high regard for myself I was looking for a business model to give me an advantage in the consulting market place. I recently figured out a niche that I believe is being completely ignored by the big consulting houses and I've started my own business.
My business plans include growing my business to the point that I will employ IT support engineers in about two years. I've already decided that I will strongly favor people who are over 40 years old when I am looking for employees. ( I am 47 years old. ) I recognise that increased age does not guarantee emotional maturity or a sense of responsibility but I believe that these qualities will be easier to find among mature employees rather than the propeller headed twenty year olds.
Unfortunately for you I do not expect to be hiring for about two years and I live in the United States.
I think that you are correct in thinking that most businesses favor young, inexperienced, and potentially irresponsible employees over older candidates. I think that there are lot of reasons for this. There is no question in my mind that our culture is based on valuing youth. Young people starting out in their career cannot demand the higher wages that an experienced older person can reasonably expect. Young people are generally more healthy than older people so business paid health insurance premiums may be lower for businesses with generally younger employees.
In my opinion the ONLY things that matter regarding employees are quality of workmanship and a deep seated sense of responsibility. I believe that most business school curricula would say that these are not bottom line assets and that a business will save money by sacrificing experience and quality in favor of youth.
Perhaps in twenty years the name "stress junkie" will be revered as the founding father of a new business paradigm placing quality ahead of everything else and of favoring experience and maturity as the characteristics that are most desireable in employment candidates.
I was restructured out of my previous job when my employer was bought by a larger business. Since then I had not taken any steps to regain employment. Initially I intended to take a bit of a vacation from the stress, responsibility, and long hours of IT support. I mostly wanted to get away from incompetent managers. As the months turned into years I found that I could not ever forsee a time when I could bear to work in the typical corporate structure, due entirely to the problems of working with incompetent managers. ( They make me really angry ) Thankfully I've always lived well "below my means" and I've got a lot of money in the bank.
I knew that I would love to work for myself. I'm sure that I would be the best IT manager that I've ever met as well as the best IT support tech/engineer/whatever that I've ever worked with. Since I have such a high regard for myself I was looking for a business model to give me an advantage in the consulting market place. I recently figured out a niche that I believe is being completely ignored by the big consulting houses and I've started my own business.
My business plans include growing my business to the point that I will employ IT support engineers in about two years. I've already decided that I will strongly favor people who are over 40 years old when I am looking for employees. ( I am 47 years old. ) I recognise that increased age does not guarantee emotional maturity or a sense of responsibility but I believe that these qualities will be easier to find among mature employees rather than the propeller headed twenty year olds.
Unfortunately for you I do not expect to be hiring for about two years and I live in the United States.
I think that you are correct in thinking that most businesses favor young, inexperienced, and potentially irresponsible employees over older candidates. I think that there are lot of reasons for this. There is no question in my mind that our culture is based on valuing youth. Young people starting out in their career cannot demand the higher wages that an experienced older person can reasonably expect. Young people are generally more healthy than older people so business paid health insurance premiums may be lower for businesses with generally younger employees.
In my opinion the ONLY things that matter regarding employees are quality of workmanship and a deep seated sense of responsibility. I believe that most business school curricula would say that these are not bottom line assets and that a business will save money by sacrificing experience and quality in favor of youth.
Perhaps in twenty years the name "stress junkie" will be revered as the founding father of a new business paradigm placing quality ahead of everything else and of favoring experience and maturity as the characteristics that are most desireable in employment candidates.
Thank you so much for your excellent and thoughtful response. I do aplogise for the 'high-brow' title of my earlier topic.
You are quite right in what you say, and it behoves us all to take note.
However, I am not anti-youth (neither are you, obviously) but I am annoyed and irritated by recruitment companies and there inept attitude toward useful folk of my age.
I hope that many people from recruitment companies will have read our input and learned from it, and stop salivating over twenty-somethings with university degrees (a useless qualification in network systems support, in my view) and start to recruit, or at least give opportunities to the more mature and experienced amongst us.
Thanks
Robb
You are quite right in what you say, and it behoves us all to take note.
However, I am not anti-youth (neither are you, obviously) but I am annoyed and irritated by recruitment companies and there inept attitude toward useful folk of my age.
I hope that many people from recruitment companies will have read our input and learned from it, and stop salivating over twenty-somethings with university degrees (a useless qualification in network systems support, in my view) and start to recruit, or at least give opportunities to the more mature and experienced amongst us.
Thanks
Robb
I was once twenty-something and I was very reponsible back then so you're right, I'm not completely prejudiced against younger people.
At this point I've just read your "ageism" post. It's pretty funny. I got a few chuckles from reading it.
At this point I've just read your "ageism" post. It's pretty funny. I got a few chuckles from reading it.
Recruitment agencies are all about passing meat through the mill not the quality of the product {in their case workers} but the numbers as they get paid to push the sausage machine harder or they don't have a job within a very short time.
So they tend to ignore the older workers as they themselves are young know it all sales-people so they quite naturally think that someone their own age or younger is the easiest work which they are so they place the older workers at the bottom of the heap as it will take them far too long to deal with and then proceed to concentrate on those that they can move quickly and hopefully without any work other than sending them to a place and then hopefully never see them again and get paid for their services.
These people are not the slightest bit interested in fitting work places to people or the other way around as most of them are incapable of understanding the nature of the work in IT and they certainly do not understand the lingo so they just go with the bare minimum experience asked for and then offer nothing else. Most of these recruiters actually think that M$ are responsible for Personal Computers and have absolutely no idea what a mainframe is or anything other than Windows as an OS. Actually come to think about it they most likely do not even know that anyone other than Microsoft actually exists as that would be all that they see on their workstations.
Here in AU things are a bit easier as we just lack the population that we require so the older people are being encouraged to keep working particularly the trades people as we do not have anywhere near enough of them. Currently several places are offering $100.00 AU just to attend an interview and any traveling expenses. If you come from a different area they will also pay your moving costs and set you up in a house just to get you to work for them.
Because we have not trained anywhere enough people recently companies are crying out for experienced trade people and are now importing them in from the Philippines and Indonesia on 3 year work permits. The problem is projected to reach a peek in 2015 when there just might be some people available to fill some of the vacancies that are currently available and about another 20 years to be self sufficient in workers for these places. These are not the unskilled jobs but the highly skilled ones where companies are offering $300.00 AU per week above award just in an attempt to attract workers.
One place that I recently went to had a car on the dock and every day that you showed up for work you where given a raffle ticket in the car which was drawn monthly and this was only to encourage their workers to actually attend work even though they are paying well above award wages to any new comers.
Col
So they tend to ignore the older workers as they themselves are young know it all sales-people so they quite naturally think that someone their own age or younger is the easiest work which they are so they place the older workers at the bottom of the heap as it will take them far too long to deal with and then proceed to concentrate on those that they can move quickly and hopefully without any work other than sending them to a place and then hopefully never see them again and get paid for their services.
These people are not the slightest bit interested in fitting work places to people or the other way around as most of them are incapable of understanding the nature of the work in IT and they certainly do not understand the lingo so they just go with the bare minimum experience asked for and then offer nothing else. Most of these recruiters actually think that M$ are responsible for Personal Computers and have absolutely no idea what a mainframe is or anything other than Windows as an OS. Actually come to think about it they most likely do not even know that anyone other than Microsoft actually exists as that would be all that they see on their workstations.
Here in AU things are a bit easier as we just lack the population that we require so the older people are being encouraged to keep working particularly the trades people as we do not have anywhere near enough of them. Currently several places are offering $100.00 AU just to attend an interview and any traveling expenses. If you come from a different area they will also pay your moving costs and set you up in a house just to get you to work for them.
Because we have not trained anywhere enough people recently companies are crying out for experienced trade people and are now importing them in from the Philippines and Indonesia on 3 year work permits. The problem is projected to reach a peek in 2015 when there just might be some people available to fill some of the vacancies that are currently available and about another 20 years to be self sufficient in workers for these places. These are not the unskilled jobs but the highly skilled ones where companies are offering $300.00 AU per week above award just in an attempt to attract workers.
One place that I recently went to had a car on the dock and every day that you showed up for work you where given a raffle ticket in the car which was drawn monthly and this was only to encourage their workers to actually attend work even though they are paying well above award wages to any new comers.
Col
Holy moly. I think that works out to about US $5.42. Such a deal!!
Try looking up http://xe.com/ currently I believe that $1.00 AU buys about 77 cents US so it will work out a little better than $5.42 US more like $5.96 US. 
Really it works out to something like 77.2005 USD
which if I remember correctly is almost enough to leave as a tip at a Mac Donald's for your cheese burger naturally it would have to be more if you ordered a Big Mac.
Col
Really it works out to something like 77.2005 USD
which if I remember correctly is almost enough to leave as a tip at a Mac Donald's for your cheese burger naturally it would have to be more if you ordered a Big Mac.
Col
Here is proof that youth can be a real PAIN.
I'm not sure when it started, but I've grown very tired of running into grubby foam cups with TIPS written in crayon. I'm sorry I don't tip someone for putting a burger in a bag, thank you is all ya get.
I'd bet the 100 AU that the first was someone UNDER 18. Given a resposible IT position they would likely saw a slot in the cube and tape a TIPS sign just below.
I'm not sure when it started, but I've grown very tired of running into grubby foam cups with TIPS written in crayon. I'm sorry I don't tip someone for putting a burger in a bag, thank you is all ya get.
I'd bet the 100 AU that the first was someone UNDER 18. Given a resposible IT position they would likely saw a slot in the cube and tape a TIPS sign just below.
Great reply. Totally agree.
Here in the UK we have a massive intake of overseas workers. Many are very very good, such as our Indian friends, but with so many incoming, there are a lot of useless eco-tourists. I can't mention the nationalities or I may get arrested.
Getting back to the point.... I am annoyed that recruitment agencies are not being fair to older, senior, mature, whatever, IT people. The loss to our economy must be in the millions a day in terms of having to train less experienced people amd covering the mistakes that younger folk make, through no real fault other than their inexperience and the lack skill to learn from mistakes.
Our's is an aging nation, more so than the USA and Oz. So we are not in a position to continue this mindless prejudice.
Robb
Here in the UK we have a massive intake of overseas workers. Many are very very good, such as our Indian friends, but with so many incoming, there are a lot of useless eco-tourists. I can't mention the nationalities or I may get arrested.
Getting back to the point.... I am annoyed that recruitment agencies are not being fair to older, senior, mature, whatever, IT people. The loss to our economy must be in the millions a day in terms of having to train less experienced people amd covering the mistakes that younger folk make, through no real fault other than their inexperience and the lack skill to learn from mistakes.
Our's is an aging nation, more so than the USA and Oz. So we are not in a position to continue this mindless prejudice.
Robb
Is this the real picture down under? I know that there are many IT pros who are out-of-job for months and even years.
I would agree on the first part - the recruitment agencies know nothing about the jobs.
Max
I would agree on the first part - the recruitment agencies know nothing about the jobs.
Max
But there are jobs that are impossible to fill here in some areas. They do advertise AU wide for staff and when they don't get any responses they have to go off shore.
What I was referring to in the above post was a News item on the AU Broadcasting Commission Lateline show where they interviewed a couple of people who ran business and couldn't get any staff to work for them. Mostly in the NT around Darwin but the problem is a bit more wide spread than that because we have not trained enough people in the last 10 years so these jobs can not be filled.
The current Federal Government who caused the problem is now addressing it as a "Matter of Importance" and is introducing some legislation [as if that helps} to start increasing the number of apprentices and the like from 2006 onward. With the accelerated training that will be provided these people will start coming on line by about 2010 how's that for quick action by the Government?
Col
What I was referring to in the above post was a News item on the AU Broadcasting Commission Lateline show where they interviewed a couple of people who ran business and couldn't get any staff to work for them. Mostly in the NT around Darwin but the problem is a bit more wide spread than that because we have not trained enough people in the last 10 years so these jobs can not be filled.
The current Federal Government who caused the problem is now addressing it as a "Matter of Importance" and is introducing some legislation [as if that helps} to start increasing the number of apprentices and the like from 2006 onward. With the accelerated training that will be provided these people will start coming on line by about 2010 how's that for quick action by the Government?
Col
What do they expect to do in the mean time? Leave everything vacant? I can see how that would help business or the economy
Now really you can not expect any sense from them can you? 
Currently they are awarding 2 year work permits so if everything goes to their plans we should only have a 2 year wait for the new trainees to become available. You have to admire the "Common Sense" that they do show don't you?
And people wonder why it is that I have such a low regard for Politicians.
Col
Currently they are awarding 2 year work permits so if everything goes to their plans we should only have a 2 year wait for the new trainees to become available. You have to admire the "Common Sense" that they do show don't you?
And people wonder why it is that I have such a low regard for Politicians.
Col
Maybe they should advertise for IT workers here in the States. Is there any online websites down there where one can apply for jobs in AU?
Always wanted to visit Australia.
Keith
KeithWilliamsATL@netscape.net
Always wanted to visit Australia.
Keith
KeithWilliamsATL@netscape.net
http://www.jobnet.com.au & http://it.seek.com.au/
are the two I use the most, both provide a huge number of available positions from the majority of Aussie recruiters as as well as directories of Recruiters sites.
http://www.immi.gov.au/work/index.htm is the gov immigration site that provides some info on thee rules for getting in to the country.
Just make sure you have credentials .. I don't know how it is in the rest of the world but degrees and certifications are what recruiters want.
I have read that we are suffering a massive skill shortage but in all honestly the fact is that we have the skills, it's just that there is a large base of uncertified skilled workers.
I know guys that could write the manual on enterprise development that have aquired the skills on the job developing infrastructure for global companies that can't get jobs because they do not have degrees and aree not certified in their skills. These guys are getting turned down and the jobs given to new graduates because recruiters can't see past the "Certificate".
The sad fact is that some of the best people are the ones that live and breath IT, have absorbed more skills than you could believe through the pure love of studying technology but have never done the formalised study (or found the time).
These people are bypassed and some bloke that thought IT might be a nice job and paid 4000 dollars for a IT training course but has trouble even turning on a PC will get the job.
I suppose it ccomes back to the recruiting thing and ease of processing.
I hired an MSCE recently that didn't know what IP was ???.
I also hired an ex helpdesk guy with no credentials. The helpdesk guy is teaching me stuff. It turns out that he has spent the last 15 years learning every peice of technology known to man and actively participates in open source dev on more platforms than you could poke a stick at.
I know which one I will keep.
are the two I use the most, both provide a huge number of available positions from the majority of Aussie recruiters as as well as directories of Recruiters sites.
http://www.immi.gov.au/work/index.htm is the gov immigration site that provides some info on thee rules for getting in to the country.
Just make sure you have credentials .. I don't know how it is in the rest of the world but degrees and certifications are what recruiters want.
I have read that we are suffering a massive skill shortage but in all honestly the fact is that we have the skills, it's just that there is a large base of uncertified skilled workers.
I know guys that could write the manual on enterprise development that have aquired the skills on the job developing infrastructure for global companies that can't get jobs because they do not have degrees and aree not certified in their skills. These guys are getting turned down and the jobs given to new graduates because recruiters can't see past the "Certificate".
The sad fact is that some of the best people are the ones that live and breath IT, have absorbed more skills than you could believe through the pure love of studying technology but have never done the formalised study (or found the time).
These people are bypassed and some bloke that thought IT might be a nice job and paid 4000 dollars for a IT training course but has trouble even turning on a PC will get the job.
I suppose it ccomes back to the recruiting thing and ease of processing.
I hired an MSCE recently that didn't know what IP was ???.
I also hired an ex helpdesk guy with no credentials. The helpdesk guy is teaching me stuff. It turns out that he has spent the last 15 years learning every peice of technology known to man and actively participates in open source dev on more platforms than you could poke a stick at.
I know which one I will keep.
While you may find that you are the only manager/tech that you can work with happily you are also your own hardest critic so you end up working harder and longer than you ever really need to just to stay happy with your level of work.
Then you do not take holidays or sick leave as you can not justify the lost time and you become your own worst enemy. My boss is exactly the same and I would do anything possible to get away from him that is part of the reason I'm not allowed sharp implements as cutting my wrists just to kill my boss is unacceptable.
Col
Then you do not take holidays or sick leave as you can not justify the lost time and you become your own worst enemy. My boss is exactly the same and I would do anything possible to get away from him that is part of the reason I'm not allowed sharp implements as cutting my wrists just to kill my boss is unacceptable.
Col
I spent 15 years in contract work, which has some similarities to being completely independent. You're right about being hard on myself.
The good news is that, unlike many people who start a business, I would not be draconian to people that I hire. I'm very oriented to humane business practices. I think that if you get the right people then you don't have to be an ogre. Hopefully when the time comes I will be able to create a great work environment where people will enjoy making a living.
The good news is that, unlike many people who start a business, I would not be draconian to people that I hire. I'm very oriented to humane business practices. I think that if you get the right people then you don't have to be an ogre. Hopefully when the time comes I will be able to create a great work environment where people will enjoy making a living.
To the slaves, "Today I have good news and bad news."
Slaves: "What is the good news, O benevolent one?"
The benevolent one: "I thought we should take a short easy cruise to a pleasant island where the sun shines and relaxation is possible."
Slaves: "That is indeed good news O benevolent one."
From some smart ass in the back:"What's the bad news???"
The benevolent one:"I thought I'd enjoy a spot of water skiing on the way."
Dawg
Slaves: "What is the good news, O benevolent one?"
The benevolent one: "I thought we should take a short easy cruise to a pleasant island where the sun shines and relaxation is possible."
Slaves: "That is indeed good news O benevolent one."
From some smart ass in the back:"What's the bad news???"
The benevolent one:"I thought I'd enjoy a spot of water skiing on the way."
Dawg
Where you describe you position in the business as Alleged Boss and Official Scape Goat you've hit the mark.
Right at the moment I have 10 techs working for me and one office manager just to keep the books in order and arrange work schedules for the guys. I've actually had to fire a couple of these women as they tend to allow the little power that they have go to their heads and start bossing the guys around which is unacceptable to me anyway.
The one I have now sought of works out OK but she doesn't like sending me out on jobs as I continually undercharge on things where the customer have been ripped off previously so I consider this more of a "Good Will" thing and only charge minimal costs to fix up the messes rather than our standard hourly rate. Drives her nuts and she goes mad at the time when I hand her the time sheets to invoice out but at least she knows better than to jump on the guys who do exactly the same thing after ringing me just to see if what they are doing is OK with me. I'm pretty flexible on things like this and whenever we do this the person in question has a customer for life as that customer only wants the original tech to come out again even though by now we are charging the correct prices.
But what I do find stressful now is the way that my staff steal my Classic Mercedes to drive around in rather than the cars that I provide them with. They all seem to think that these are company property and not just my play toys of course as I drive one of them all the time it's a bit hard but when one approached my wife and tells her that he's taking her car and has OKed it with me and I know nothing at all about it I know that they are using me.
One actually was involved in a collision where one of my Mercs was a complete loss as a truck ran a red light and collected him right on the drivers door the only good thing about it was if he had of been in the new car most likely he would have died rather than only suffering minor injuries that he did {well at least until he got out of hospital then he got really hurt :D} I made him write me a new engine management program in Boolean for a 64 K EPROM that was used in the EFI system of the car. Of course I didn't help him one little bit or even give him a starting program to work from he had to do it all from scratch and then he wasn't allowed out until he had proved himself responsible, it didn't matter about his protests of being the innocent victim which he was he shouldn't have taken that car which I had just finished restoring and hadn't even had a chance to drive it anywhere.
We do at least have a hell of a lot of fun and that really is all that matters in the end as happy people are productive but the BASTARDS Still Steal My Cars!
Col
Right at the moment I have 10 techs working for me and one office manager just to keep the books in order and arrange work schedules for the guys. I've actually had to fire a couple of these women as they tend to allow the little power that they have go to their heads and start bossing the guys around which is unacceptable to me anyway.
The one I have now sought of works out OK but she doesn't like sending me out on jobs as I continually undercharge on things where the customer have been ripped off previously so I consider this more of a "Good Will" thing and only charge minimal costs to fix up the messes rather than our standard hourly rate. Drives her nuts and she goes mad at the time when I hand her the time sheets to invoice out but at least she knows better than to jump on the guys who do exactly the same thing after ringing me just to see if what they are doing is OK with me. I'm pretty flexible on things like this and whenever we do this the person in question has a customer for life as that customer only wants the original tech to come out again even though by now we are charging the correct prices.
But what I do find stressful now is the way that my staff steal my Classic Mercedes to drive around in rather than the cars that I provide them with. They all seem to think that these are company property and not just my play toys of course as I drive one of them all the time it's a bit hard but when one approached my wife and tells her that he's taking her car and has OKed it with me and I know nothing at all about it I know that they are using me.
One actually was involved in a collision where one of my Mercs was a complete loss as a truck ran a red light and collected him right on the drivers door the only good thing about it was if he had of been in the new car most likely he would have died rather than only suffering minor injuries that he did {well at least until he got out of hospital then he got really hurt :D} I made him write me a new engine management program in Boolean for a 64 K EPROM that was used in the EFI system of the car. Of course I didn't help him one little bit or even give him a starting program to work from he had to do it all from scratch and then he wasn't allowed out until he had proved himself responsible, it didn't matter about his protests of being the innocent victim which he was he shouldn't have taken that car which I had just finished restoring and hadn't even had a chance to drive it anywhere.
We do at least have a hell of a lot of fun and that really is all that matters in the end as happy people are productive but the BASTARDS Still Steal My Cars!
Col
Here in the US it would be grounds for termination. I know I wouldn't do that to a boss/employer who had graciously allowed use of a company car. I figure if I want a Mercedes, I'll buy one.
They also all know me from way back as every one of they guys used to work for me at other jobs when I ran IT Departments and just tended to follow me around as I left one job for another.
But the mongrels all say exactly the same thing that I say I don't trust new cars so I'll have my 73 Merc thank you very much. I really wouldn't mind it so much if they didn't wait until I had finished restoring the things before they stole them as they could give me a list of problems that needed fixing before I got really into it.
But by the same token they all know just where the line in the sand is drawn none of them would dream for a single minute of touching the Ducati as they all know that their lives wouldn't be worth living. The Mercs on the other hand always need a run from time to time but just not every day.
And while I'm still a bit peeved about the wreck I still have the worker which I'm sure I wouldn't have if he was in the new car. Now all I've got to figure out is how to write off on tax the value of the Mercedes which go up in value every year rather than the current crop of crap which looses a third of its value when you drive it off the showroom floor.
I'm working on that one though and my accountant is going nuts but I like to keep them on their toes. I've got to admit that when they are driving the Mercs they don't have any collisions so they are actually driving safer than with the new cars there has only been one incident and I was at a M$ Partners Meeting so I had to leave that to go to the Hospital {that really upset me no end} I actually could stay awake that night instead of falling asleep as soon as I got home.
I am getting hints since the last Christmas party that they would like to see the 65 Beetle back on the road as well but it is slightly modified and only has 3" of ground clearance so it isn't fit for an everyday car although the wife used to drive it to her job once and everyone complained when I got her driving a Merc. They all wanted "Herbie" back and it didn't matter that it set off car alarms at 100 feet or threw you all over the place or broke the glass in windows in hospitals at 3.00 AM they liked its character. Since then I've built and even better motor for it and the more that they drool over it the more I'm not interested in putting the finishing touches to it. Currently all it needs is a wash the engine cover fitted a fuel hose from the filler to the tank and battery. One day when I feel the "Need For Speed" I'll put it all back together and it will be in the same category as the Ducati.
Col
But the mongrels all say exactly the same thing that I say I don't trust new cars so I'll have my 73 Merc thank you very much. I really wouldn't mind it so much if they didn't wait until I had finished restoring the things before they stole them as they could give me a list of problems that needed fixing before I got really into it.
But by the same token they all know just where the line in the sand is drawn none of them would dream for a single minute of touching the Ducati as they all know that their lives wouldn't be worth living. The Mercs on the other hand always need a run from time to time but just not every day.
And while I'm still a bit peeved about the wreck I still have the worker which I'm sure I wouldn't have if he was in the new car. Now all I've got to figure out is how to write off on tax the value of the Mercedes which go up in value every year rather than the current crop of crap which looses a third of its value when you drive it off the showroom floor.
I'm working on that one though and my accountant is going nuts but I like to keep them on their toes.
I've got to admit that when they are driving the Mercs they don't have any collisions so they are actually driving safer than with the new cars there has only been one incident and I was at a M$ Partners Meeting so I had to leave that to go to the Hospital {that really upset me no end} I actually could stay awake that night instead of falling asleep as soon as I got home. I am getting hints since the last Christmas party that they would like to see the 65 Beetle back on the road as well but it is slightly modified and only has 3" of ground clearance so it isn't fit for an everyday car although the wife used to drive it to her job once and everyone complained when I got her driving a Merc. They all wanted "Herbie" back and it didn't matter that it set off car alarms at 100 feet or threw you all over the place or broke the glass in windows in hospitals at 3.00 AM they liked its character. Since then I've built and even better motor for it and the more that they drool over it the more I'm not interested in putting the finishing touches to it. Currently all it needs is a wash the engine cover fitted a fuel hose from the filler to the tank and battery. One day when I feel the "Need For Speed" I'll put it all back together and it will be in the same category as the Ducati.
Col
> I consider this more of a "Good Will" thing and
> only charge minimal costs to fix up the messes
> rather than our standard hourly rate.
Hal 9000 --
Doing the "Good Will" thing is smart business, but never, ever reduce your rate. Instead, bill fewer hours than you actually work, all the way down to zero when you're acknowledging a real foul-up.
Then hand your manager a timesheet with "billable" and "marketing" and "rework" hours on it, just to keep track for yourself of what you're doing.
There's a book I highly recommend: "Managing the Professional Service Firm" by David H. Maister
best,
t
> only charge minimal costs to fix up the messes
> rather than our standard hourly rate.
Hal 9000 --
Doing the "Good Will" thing is smart business, but never, ever reduce your rate. Instead, bill fewer hours than you actually work, all the way down to zero when you're acknowledging a real foul-up.
Then hand your manager a timesheet with "billable" and "marketing" and "rework" hours on it, just to keep track for yourself of what you're doing.
There's a book I highly recommend: "Managing the Professional Service Firm" by David H. Maister
best,
t
That would be a bit hard to do but I do keep a record of the time spent on these jobs and on occasions I've been known only to charge $100.00 AU per day but these have been on real mess ups.
One job that I was called in to do was to fit a CD ROM and I did suggest a DVD ROM instead as there is only a very small difference in price and the DVD was the better option. Well I quoted for the part the labor all 15 minutes of it and spent 4 weeks fixing up the mess.
Not even the network cables where fitted to the walls just hanging out on CAT5E cable. The DSL Internet connection which was setup by a so called professional consisted of a DSL Modem connected to a hub no router to be seen and the only way that they could pass files between different computers was to e-mail them. There was no software other than Windows on any of the computers except the managers unit which had MYOB but only because they already had a copy of it and the best thing is I was asked to see why the spell checker wasn't working in the Word Processor which turned out to be Notepad which they had been told was a fully featured WP.
Just thinking about it gives me goose bumps with all the wasted time there. It should never have happened but that is how some of the so called "Professionals" work all the way down to selling 2 monitors for one computer with no way of fitting the second monitor, the sellers excuse was that they didn't realize that they wanted to use both the monitors at the same time he thought that they just wanted to plug and unplug them as required one being a 17" CRT the the other was a 15" TFT. Doesn't everyone buy 2 monitors per computer just to have one as a spare?
Now this was really a "Small Business" with only 6 computers and the Internet connection but all of that hardware cost them 40K and all without any software. And just to make things even better it was all cheap junk and the guy who had pulled the cables for the network had just fitted plugs and made sure that there was an Internet connection available to every computer and then left the place saying "I'll be back soon" well 4 or 6 weeks latter when I was called in he hadn't even rung them to tell them what was going on and then just as I finished everything he walked in and demanded to know what it was that I thought I was doing and he then approached the owner and asked why they didn't ask him to supply the software.
But what was even better was his continued insistence that they didn't need any AV products installed as the modem would stop any viruses. Even though that had already been taken down and lost weeks of product time.
Maybe he knew a lot more than I did or as I believe he was just trying to rip them off even more. I could have supplied the hardware to a much better quality and with all the software that they needed for less than half of what they paid for the rubbish and still have made a profit. As well as pull the cable and fit it properly. Which when I looked at the building wasn't even necessary.
The main reason that they called me in was because they got an infection and had to do a complete reload and the unit that I fitted the DVD to didn't have any way to use the "OEM CD" that came with the network. Of course every copy of Windows was a Pirate copy as well so I didn't hesitate to report this to M$ and they got new OEM copies of Windows for helping M$ to close this guy down well at least stop him from continuing along on his merry way.
The whole idea of buying a complete network is to have a standard set of hardware as a base and tailor the individual units as required instead they got a mis mash of different everything and no hardware drivers with any of the boxes. The only hardware driver disk that I could find was for the TFT monitor and I really think that was an oversight on his part as well. All they had in the way of software was one recorded Windows XP Pro CD and the TFT monitor disk. But every box had a COA on it even if they where very badly made copies and all with the same product key they didn't even look like the real thing.
Of course I got a very friendly reception when I walked in as their first reaction was how much are you going to attempt to take off us to do this little job?
They where a lot less than friendly when I first got there and I just fitted the drive and after I was preparing to leave I was asked to have a look at the rest of the thing for an opinion.
Well they where up and running for 3 weeks before they got taken down by a virus and even in that short time that had run up a bill from their ISP well into the 3 figure mark owing to the amount of data that was being transfered across the Internet. And what was worse is this was how they where told things should work.
I really can not stand to see things like this happen and it gets me mad as people like this only make it that much harder for the rest of us who do the right thing by our customers. They seem to consider them as a cash cow with an endless supply of funds to keep them occupied and these business are at their mercy because they know no better and even think that they are getting a great deal which they are but just not for them but the guy providing the so called service. On the invoice he had charged them for the installation of the CAT5E cable on 4 different occasions and every time they where under different headings as well as different prices and what made it even worse is that when they moved in the whole place was already wired.
No I can not go on it's getting to me just thinking about the whole thing the only good thing to come out of it all was I now have a customer for life and I did get some small satisfaction when I got a M$ Infringement Alert mentioning the company who supplied this mess and the out of court settlement that they where forced to agree to.
The customer got a fixed invoice and the real time spent was entered down in my books and listed under "Good Will." The real problem here is that I really can not reduce my rates as that gets the Tax Man interested {which means an audit} but I can reduce the number of hours shown on an invoice and charge it out at installation rates rather then consulting rates. But that is about the only way around the problem. On that job I settled for a flat $100.00 per day and they where happy with the amount that I was charging them as in all honesty it would have been cheaper to pull the lot out bin it all and start again from scratch if I charged them the correct amount for the consulting service. I really could have made far more money by fixing the mess up that what it originally cost which is really what should have happened. But of course they would have gone broke a long time before I ever got paid as by the time I got involved they had already been unable to work for at least 2 weeks. They where reloading the boxes themselves and having no success. But at least the "Volume License" copy of XP worked with the provided product keys.
Col
One job that I was called in to do was to fit a CD ROM and I did suggest a DVD ROM instead as there is only a very small difference in price and the DVD was the better option. Well I quoted for the part the labor all 15 minutes of it and spent 4 weeks fixing up the mess.
Not even the network cables where fitted to the walls just hanging out on CAT5E cable. The DSL Internet connection which was setup by a so called professional consisted of a DSL Modem connected to a hub no router to be seen and the only way that they could pass files between different computers was to e-mail them. There was no software other than Windows on any of the computers except the managers unit which had MYOB but only because they already had a copy of it and the best thing is I was asked to see why the spell checker wasn't working in the Word Processor which turned out to be Notepad which they had been told was a fully featured WP.
Just thinking about it gives me goose bumps with all the wasted time there. It should never have happened but that is how some of the so called "Professionals" work all the way down to selling 2 monitors for one computer with no way of fitting the second monitor, the sellers excuse was that they didn't realize that they wanted to use both the monitors at the same time he thought that they just wanted to plug and unplug them as required one being a 17" CRT the the other was a 15" TFT. Doesn't everyone buy 2 monitors per computer just to have one as a spare?
Now this was really a "Small Business" with only 6 computers and the Internet connection but all of that hardware cost them 40K and all without any software. And just to make things even better it was all cheap junk and the guy who had pulled the cables for the network had just fitted plugs and made sure that there was an Internet connection available to every computer and then left the place saying "I'll be back soon" well 4 or 6 weeks latter when I was called in he hadn't even rung them to tell them what was going on and then just as I finished everything he walked in and demanded to know what it was that I thought I was doing and he then approached the owner and asked why they didn't ask him to supply the software.
But what was even better was his continued insistence that they didn't need any AV products installed as the modem would stop any viruses.
Even though that had already been taken down and lost weeks of product time.Maybe he knew a lot more than I did or as I believe he was just trying to rip them off even more. I could have supplied the hardware to a much better quality and with all the software that they needed for less than half of what they paid for the rubbish and still have made a profit. As well as pull the cable and fit it properly. Which when I looked at the building wasn't even necessary.
The main reason that they called me in was because they got an infection and had to do a complete reload and the unit that I fitted the DVD to didn't have any way to use the "OEM CD" that came with the network. Of course every copy of Windows was a Pirate copy as well so I didn't hesitate to report this to M$ and they got new OEM copies of Windows for helping M$ to close this guy down well at least stop him from continuing along on his merry way.
The whole idea of buying a complete network is to have a standard set of hardware as a base and tailor the individual units as required instead they got a mis mash of different everything and no hardware drivers with any of the boxes. The only hardware driver disk that I could find was for the TFT monitor and I really think that was an oversight on his part as well. All they had in the way of software was one recorded Windows XP Pro CD and the TFT monitor disk. But every box had a COA on it even if they where very badly made copies and all with the same product key they didn't even look like the real thing.
Of course I got a very friendly reception when I walked in as their first reaction was how much are you going to attempt to take off us to do this little job?
They where a lot less than friendly when I first got there and I just fitted the drive and after I was preparing to leave I was asked to have a look at the rest of the thing for an opinion.
Well they where up and running for 3 weeks before they got taken down by a virus and even in that short time that had run up a bill from their ISP well into the 3 figure mark owing to the amount of data that was being transfered across the Internet. And what was worse is this was how they where told things should work.
I really can not stand to see things like this happen and it gets me mad as people like this only make it that much harder for the rest of us who do the right thing by our customers. They seem to consider them as a cash cow with an endless supply of funds to keep them occupied and these business are at their mercy because they know no better and even think that they are getting a great deal which they are but just not for them but the guy providing the so called service. On the invoice he had charged them for the installation of the CAT5E cable on 4 different occasions and every time they where under different headings as well as different prices and what made it even worse is that when they moved in the whole place was already wired.
No I can not go on it's getting to me just thinking about the whole thing the only good thing to come out of it all was I now have a customer for life and I did get some small satisfaction when I got a M$ Infringement Alert mentioning the company who supplied this mess and the out of court settlement that they where forced to agree to.
The customer got a fixed invoice and the real time spent was entered down in my books and listed under "Good Will." The real problem here is that I really can not reduce my rates as that gets the Tax Man interested {which means an audit} but I can reduce the number of hours shown on an invoice and charge it out at installation rates rather then consulting rates. But that is about the only way around the problem. On that job I settled for a flat $100.00 per day and they where happy with the amount that I was charging them as in all honesty it would have been cheaper to pull the lot out bin it all and start again from scratch if I charged them the correct amount for the consulting service. I really could have made far more money by fixing the mess up that what it originally cost which is really what should have happened. But of course they would have gone broke a long time before I ever got paid as by the time I got involved they had already been unable to work for at least 2 weeks. They where reloading the boxes themselves and having no success. But at least the "Volume License" copy of XP worked with the provided product keys.
Col
I don't think suicide or wrist cutting is an acceptable form of protest. One thought I did have is, maybe its time to hire a 53 year old Yank.
When everything is going to hell around you?
Or one of the guys has just written off a recently finished restoration and all I was thinking about was how badly he was hurt. "I could inflict the punishment latter when the quacks had patched him up."
Actually I would most likely drive you nuts as I'm a BAD BASTARD to work for or so I'm constantly told but the funny thing is that any of the guys will step in and take some of my work when they think I'm working too hard. Or steal my mobile phone just so I can have a nights peace and quite.
But working for yourself and having staff is a constant worry as I'm always feeling obliged to make sure that I have enough work so I can pay them.
Unlike a lot of the current places I would never consider laying off staff when things are slow as I know that I'll need them all again latter and to me they really are far more important than a few $ in my hip pocket or bank account. We are more family than anything else and all as mad as cut snakes so we all work together fairly well.
But if I knew then what I know now it would sure as hell be a different story.
Next time I have a bright idea like that last one I'm going to have myself committed and just sit in a nice padded room full of drugs and not noticing anything at all.
You know you have got it bad when after an operation you are told that the quacks thought that you had brain damage because they couldn't make sense of what you where saying. Apparently or so "She Who Must Be Obeyed" insists they quacks where really worried about me as I wasn't making any sense to them and after 3 hours in recovery I was transfered to a observation room for constant monitoring and it was there that the wife first saw me and she insists that when I was asked how I felt my only reply was "I've got a pain in my D Drive." Thats what had all the medical staff worried but she just laughed and said he's OK just send him up to the ward and he'll be OK tomorrow you might even understand a few of the words that he says then.
I really have no idea how true that is but she insists it is right.
Col
Or one of the guys has just written off a recently finished restoration and all I was thinking about was how badly he was hurt. "I could inflict the punishment latter when the quacks had patched him up."
Actually I would most likely drive you nuts as I'm a BAD BASTARD to work for or so I'm constantly told but the funny thing is that any of the guys will step in and take some of my work when they think I'm working too hard. Or steal my mobile phone just so I can have a nights peace and quite.
But working for yourself and having staff is a constant worry as I'm always feeling obliged to make sure that I have enough work so I can pay them.
Unlike a lot of the current places I would never consider laying off staff when things are slow as I know that I'll need them all again latter and to me they really are far more important than a few $ in my hip pocket or bank account. We are more family than anything else and all as mad as cut snakes so we all work together fairly well.
But if I knew then what I know now it would sure as hell be a different story.
Next time I have a bright idea like that last one I'm going to have myself committed and just sit in a nice padded room full of drugs and not noticing anything at all.
You know you have got it bad when after an operation you are told that the quacks thought that you had brain damage because they couldn't make sense of what you where saying. Apparently or so "She Who Must Be Obeyed" insists they quacks where really worried about me as I wasn't making any sense to them and after 3 hours in recovery I was transfered to a observation room for constant monitoring and it was there that the wife first saw me and she insists that when I was asked how I felt my only reply was "I've got a pain in my D Drive." Thats what had all the medical staff worried but she just laughed and said he's OK just send him up to the ward and he'll be OK tomorrow you might even understand a few of the words that he says then.
I really have no idea how true that is but she insists it is right.
Col
...agree. Add to this the good chance that one starts from a "home office" (read basement, garage, or attic...) and it sounds great: no more traffic jams to work; no more silly meetings masquerading as management -- a nice short commute.
Trouble is, you also never leave the office; work is a short walk away & every time you have an idea, you pop into to office...& come up for air hours later. When I first started I thought the family would be happy to have me working form home -- but their perspective was that I wasn't home: I was 'down there' (basement office..).
Ended up installing wireless (yes, w/ 128 WEP and VPN) so I could use a laptop while kids were doing homework, etc. I may not be paying anymore (or less) attention than I was before, but now that I'm visible in the kitchen or family room, I'm "home" again.
Like many here, I, too, am unlikely to go back to a corporate mill working for some techno-neanderthal manager. However, being my own boss wasn't without a few surprises & a sharp learning curve.
Trouble is, you also never leave the office; work is a short walk away & every time you have an idea, you pop into to office...& come up for air hours later. When I first started I thought the family would be happy to have me working form home -- but their perspective was that I wasn't home: I was 'down there' (basement office..).
Ended up installing wireless (yes, w/ 128 WEP and VPN) so I could use a laptop while kids were doing homework, etc. I may not be paying anymore (or less) attention than I was before, but now that I'm visible in the kitchen or family room, I'm "home" again.
Like many here, I, too, am unlikely to go back to a corporate mill working for some techno-neanderthal manager. However, being my own boss wasn't without a few surprises & a sharp learning curve.
When I took that step I thought a nice quite life a bit of work and then I could have something that I'd never had previously "Holidays!"
Well that only lasted for 12 hours or thereabouts as the same day I was approached by the 10 guys who are now working here all with a list of customers to come work for me {again} as if they didn't complain enough about me when they where working for me previously and all willing to take pay cuts just to be in at the beginning until I could pay them all the right amount when things got rolling. I should have known better and committed myself. A nice padded room with a lovely jacket with long sleeves that tie up quite neatly behind my back and enough drugs so I never worry about anything ever again.
But really they are like family and we are all the same as far as I'm concerned.
Now if I could just get rid of my Boss everything would be perfect.
Col
Well that only lasted for 12 hours or thereabouts as the same day I was approached by the 10 guys who are now working here all with a list of customers to come work for me {again} as if they didn't complain enough about me when they where working for me previously and all willing to take pay cuts just to be in at the beginning until I could pay them all the right amount when things got rolling. I should have known better and committed myself. A nice padded room with a lovely jacket with long sleeves that tie up quite neatly behind my back and enough drugs so I never worry about anything ever again.
But really they are like family and we are all the same as far as I'm concerned.
Now if I could just get rid of my Boss everything would be perfect.
Col
I do that anyway. Even when away from the office, I get calls 24/7 and I take care of them. My philosophy is doing what needs to be done to make sure the users have as little inconvenience as possible.
Of course IT has made it a little easier than it used to be now that we have VPN Access.
Of course IT has made it a little easier than it used to be now that we have VPN Access.
I am 29 years old and in my 4th year as an Information Technology professional. With the exception of my current assignment every other previous IT assignment, the "older techs" would dismiss us 20 somethings as not having any "knowledge or expereince."
This would come mainly from guys who are over 45 in age. Very few had any college under their belt and the majority assumed they know it all.
Since many people in the "older age group" got into the IT field prior to formalized college programs or certification testing they tend to scoff at working on a degree or learning what it takes to pass a certification test. I do not wish to come across as saying all techs in that age group are like that, just from previous jobs I would say maybe 60% to 75% would fit into this description.
I have found some great mentors and friends in the older crowd and they like me cannot stand the know it alls. Face it IT is to large and complex for one person to know it all and be an expert in it.
One mentor in particular told me that I have 2 choices "learn or die." Those who refuse to learn will find that their career options get shorter.
I would submit that if the resume for the 55 year old had emphasizesd continual learning and growth on more current technologies that there would have been more positive feedback.
Finally, no one in their right mind is suppose to inlcude their age and a photograph when submitting a resume for an IT job. A more scientific study would involve having 2 techs resumes one a person starting in the field and the other being a vetern of IT. Leave age and pics off of it. While you are at it, include a 3rd resume that is mid-career with certs and a college degree and see which one gets the most responses.
Age is not the issue. It is the eternal triad of expereince, education (both college and non-college) and certifications that gets people hired not just because of a person's age. To suggest that people are not getting jobs or passed over because they are too young or too old is the dumbest thing I have heard in IT (including some of the things end users say).
Regardless of your age, you might want to do the following if your resume is seriously sucking on getting job offers:
1) Make sure it is current and up to date
2) Have a professional (like an English teacher) proof read your resume
3) Make sure that your skills are current for the positions you are applying for. If you have 10 years of Windows 3.1 support under your belt, it will not help you with getting a job for Longhorn upgrades.
4) See if the local community college has classes on technology for a job position you want to move into. Consider picking up a technical certificate or degree.
5) Do a brain dump of all your skills, experience, certifications and training/education into one massive resume. Mine is about 4 pages long. From this massive resume, you can copy and paste items that will help you for certain jobs. You could easily come up with multiple resumes each for a different type of IT job (network admin, server admin, DBA, PM and etc).
6) Get certified. View certification as the final exam for a self study class in which you learn the susbstance to the certification.
7) find places to volunteer to gain experience for IT areas that you want to grow into. Besides you build good karma and increase the possibilty that a future employer will know of work through your volunteer experience. Remember the 6 degrees of seperation thing.
8) Get a life, a social life that is. Again with the six-degrees of seperation thing. You may find that even if you end up answering more questions than you ask your social network, that one of them might mention you to someone who is looking for a smart tech.
9) Be happy! No one likes to work with people who have a dark cloud over them.
10) And finally to qoute Napoleon Hill, author of Think and Grow Rich, "practice the law of over compensation. If the benefit does not come at this job, it will come to you in a future job with compounded interest!"
Thanks,
Rama K. Brooks, A+, Netork+, AAS
Generation-X Redneck
from Webberville, MI
This would come mainly from guys who are over 45 in age. Very few had any college under their belt and the majority assumed they know it all.
Since many people in the "older age group" got into the IT field prior to formalized college programs or certification testing they tend to scoff at working on a degree or learning what it takes to pass a certification test. I do not wish to come across as saying all techs in that age group are like that, just from previous jobs I would say maybe 60% to 75% would fit into this description.
I have found some great mentors and friends in the older crowd and they like me cannot stand the know it alls. Face it IT is to large and complex for one person to know it all and be an expert in it.
One mentor in particular told me that I have 2 choices "learn or die." Those who refuse to learn will find that their career options get shorter.
I would submit that if the resume for the 55 year old had emphasizesd continual learning and growth on more current technologies that there would have been more positive feedback.
Finally, no one in their right mind is suppose to inlcude their age and a photograph when submitting a resume for an IT job. A more scientific study would involve having 2 techs resumes one a person starting in the field and the other being a vetern of IT. Leave age and pics off of it. While you are at it, include a 3rd resume that is mid-career with certs and a college degree and see which one gets the most responses.
Age is not the issue. It is the eternal triad of expereince, education (both college and non-college) and certifications that gets people hired not just because of a person's age. To suggest that people are not getting jobs or passed over because they are too young or too old is the dumbest thing I have heard in IT (including some of the things end users say).
Regardless of your age, you might want to do the following if your resume is seriously sucking on getting job offers:
1) Make sure it is current and up to date
2) Have a professional (like an English teacher) proof read your resume
3) Make sure that your skills are current for the positions you are applying for. If you have 10 years of Windows 3.1 support under your belt, it will not help you with getting a job for Longhorn upgrades.
4) See if the local community college has classes on technology for a job position you want to move into. Consider picking up a technical certificate or degree.
5) Do a brain dump of all your skills, experience, certifications and training/education into one massive resume. Mine is about 4 pages long. From this massive resume, you can copy and paste items that will help you for certain jobs. You could easily come up with multiple resumes each for a different type of IT job (network admin, server admin, DBA, PM and etc).
6) Get certified. View certification as the final exam for a self study class in which you learn the susbstance to the certification.
7) find places to volunteer to gain experience for IT areas that you want to grow into. Besides you build good karma and increase the possibilty that a future employer will know of work through your volunteer experience. Remember the 6 degrees of seperation thing.
8) Get a life, a social life that is. Again with the six-degrees of seperation thing. You may find that even if you end up answering more questions than you ask your social network, that one of them might mention you to someone who is looking for a smart tech.
9) Be happy! No one likes to work with people who have a dark cloud over them.
10) And finally to qoute Napoleon Hill, author of Think and Grow Rich, "practice the law of over compensation. If the benefit does not come at this job, it will come to you in a future job with compounded interest!"
Thanks,
Rama K. Brooks, A+, Netork+, AAS
Generation-X Redneck
from Webberville, MI
I am 48 and with the same problem. Your message was really useful. Now, where do you (all people here) get the time to follow this most interesting discussion?
I will just begin to experiment with multiple resumes and "multiple age".
I will just begin to experiment with multiple resumes and "multiple age".
to become financially independent. Fix in your mind the idea that you don't work for any company, you work at that company. You don't work for anybody, you work with them. Once that idea is fixed in your mind and YOU BELIEVE IT, you'll be positioned to set out on the road to financial independence. Who knows, along the way you could become a millionaire but first you must be independent. Remember you don't work for any company; you work for yourself and you're only at that company for the pay check. Companies have little or no loyalty or gratitude to their employees so why are you loyal and grateful to them. Think of yourself as offering them goods and services in exchange for which they offer you a pay check. There is no earthly reason why you should be 'selling' your wares to one company exclusively. It's a short step from there to being your own boss and then, if you're going to be successful, you'll find you're working for the toughest SOB you've ever worked for. That's when the 18-20 hour days 7/24 start but they'll be fun days because they'll be your own days and you'll be building something for yourself and your loved ones, not someone else.
Dawg
Dawg
I think I'm only here as a Scape Goat for the people that I employ and now I'm working harder than ever to keep them employed as to me at least my staff are important and I need a constant stream of work to keep them employed.
What was supposed to be easy work and a stress free life has gone exactly the opposite way and now it is worse than ever and the worst thing of all is that I only had about 12 hours of what I wanted before I had a complete workforce along with customers.
I could really murder that SOB who came up with the idea that I would be better off working for myself if only I knew then what I know now I'd have stayed where I was after all it was only 18 hour days and I got every second Sunday off now I'm lucky if I'm not dreaming about computer problems on the few chances when I can get some sleep.
Col
What was supposed to be easy work and a stress free life has gone exactly the opposite way and now it is worse than ever and the worst thing of all is that I only had about 12 hours of what I wanted before I had a complete workforce along with customers.
I could really murder that SOB who came up with the idea that I would be better off working for myself if only I knew then what I know now I'd have stayed where I was after all it was only 18 hour days and I got every second Sunday off now I'm lucky if I'm not dreaming about computer problems on the few chances when I can get some sleep.
Col
I agree totally to "There is no earthly reason why you should be 'selling' your wares to one company exclusively."
I work with a great company and seem satisfied for now. But, I still sell my services to other companies after hours and weekends. I have repeat customers and if my full-time employer says by, I am still employed for myself.
I work with a great company and seem satisfied for now. But, I still sell my services to other companies after hours and weekends. I have repeat customers and if my full-time employer says by, I am still employed for myself.
I am the first to admit that due to my limited background I'm a bit naive and sheltered from typical corporate thinking. But I can't help but be shocked and somewhat disgusted by this blatantly selfish logic.
I work with a wonderful team of 23 bright and creative individuals who work together to achieve our company's utmost potential. If I for one moment felt that any one of those people, myself included, carried the attitude of "you work for yourself and you're only at that company for the pay check", they would be out the door.
Now don't misunterstand me. I am one of those who believe wholeheartedly that you "work to live" not "live to work". When it comes to my life priorities, my job falls well down the list.
However, I also cannot fathom how anyone could spend a massive portion of their waking hours in something they have no loyalty to, and therefore cannot feel a real part of, but sees it as only a means of feeding their own selfish ambition.
It is just that back-stabbing, climb-over-anyone-in-your-way, everyone-for-themselves attitude that perpetuates the "corporate monster" so many on these forums despise.
I work with a wonderful team of 23 bright and creative individuals who work together to achieve our company's utmost potential. If I for one moment felt that any one of those people, myself included, carried the attitude of "you work for yourself and you're only at that company for the pay check", they would be out the door.
Now don't misunterstand me. I am one of those who believe wholeheartedly that you "work to live" not "live to work". When it comes to my life priorities, my job falls well down the list.
However, I also cannot fathom how anyone could spend a massive portion of their waking hours in something they have no loyalty to, and therefore cannot feel a real part of, but sees it as only a means of feeding their own selfish ambition.
It is just that back-stabbing, climb-over-anyone-in-your-way, everyone-for-themselves attitude that perpetuates the "corporate monster" so many on these forums despise.
It is very common in other areas of big business I've personally seen far too many examples of it from the time I spent working for big business and I've fired a few IT staff who felt that way as well they didn't cut in in my section so they left as they where only there for their weekly pay check and would just waste time and generally be nonproductive and even worse consume time by other staff who where already covering for them.
Recently a new term has been coined for some in business calling them Psychotic of something as they regularly demean people and take the credit for their work to gain advancement and increases in payments.
While this is not a new thing it is only now being recognized for what it is and in companies where these people work they regularly cause so many problems that the productive staff leave and then they no longer have the ability to take the credit for others work.
These people are a perfect example of the S##t floating to the top.
Col
Recently a new term has been coined for some in business calling them Psychotic of something as they regularly demean people and take the credit for their work to gain advancement and increases in payments.
While this is not a new thing it is only now being recognized for what it is and in companies where these people work they regularly cause so many problems that the productive staff leave and then they no longer have the ability to take the credit for others work.
These people are a perfect example of the S##t floating to the top.
Col
I applaud your efforts and wish you much success with your business. I cannot think of any valid reasons for age bias. In our area, health insurance rates are "community rated." So, the rates for our business are not dependant on the age of our workers. Moreover, I have seen older workers (even those with serious illnesses) take off far less time from work than younger workers who think nothing of missing work for the flimsiest of reasons.
What really matters is the individual's attitude toward learning and staying current in the field. Again, I have seen younger workers who think they are God's gift to mankind because they have a network certification or an associates degree and I have seen older workers who feel the need to go back to school for advanced degrees in IT or IS.
An astute manager will know what to look for on a resume and what questions to ask on an interview to find the right candidate. He or she does not have to rely on age as the primary criteria to find a good hire. Unfortunately, this world is filled with hacks who take the easy way out all the time. After all, nobody ever got fired for hiring a recent grad with a good GPA.
What really matters is the individual's attitude toward learning and staying current in the field. Again, I have seen younger workers who think they are God's gift to mankind because they have a network certification or an associates degree and I have seen older workers who feel the need to go back to school for advanced degrees in IT or IS.
An astute manager will know what to look for on a resume and what questions to ask on an interview to find the right candidate. He or she does not have to rely on age as the primary criteria to find a good hire. Unfortunately, this world is filled with hacks who take the easy way out all the time. After all, nobody ever got fired for hiring a recent grad with a good GPA.
I Grad in 97 with a 3.085 GPA, Neeedless to say I am now back in school for my certifications, a BS in computer sicence along with a AD in info Tech, did not help. I went back to school after 20+ yeas in the US Army. Like staed in the original post I have drawers of letters stateing, We have no postions at tis time for anyone of your education and experiance. I am 55 now and couldnt agree more with the bias as stated.
This post is boring.
I will give you one dollar to solve this riddle.
Three men checked into a hotel room for which they paid $30. The next day, the manager realized that the men had been overcharged. She gave the bellhop $5 to return to the three men. On the way to their room the bellhop decided to keep $2 for himself, and give each of the three men one dollar. The three men had now paid $9 each, or a total of $27. This plus the $2 the bellhop kept makes a total of $29. What happened to the other dollar?
I will give you one dollar to solve this riddle.
Three men checked into a hotel room for which they paid $30. The next day, the manager realized that the men had been overcharged. She gave the bellhop $5 to return to the three men. On the way to their room the bellhop decided to keep $2 for himself, and give each of the three men one dollar. The three men had now paid $9 each, or a total of $27. This plus the $2 the bellhop kept makes a total of $29. What happened to the other dollar?
The question you pose is nonsense.
Initial payment was $30.
Manager pays back $5 and keeps $25.
Bellhop pockets $2 and gives each of 3 men $1.
The 3 men therefore between them paid a total of $27.
Money received by manager is $27 MINUS the $2 pocketed by the bellhop.
The missing dollar is only in the head of johnnywat who posed this badly structured math problem.
Initial payment was $30.
Manager pays back $5 and keeps $25.
Bellhop pockets $2 and gives each of 3 men $1.
The 3 men therefore between them paid a total of $27.
Money received by manager is $27 MINUS the $2 pocketed by the bellhop.
The missing dollar is only in the head of johnnywat who posed this badly structured math problem.
THe way you write it there would be a missing $5.
This is actually an accounting issue. I saw it the first time in a math riddle book. It has to do with the way the accountants book receivables.
They show $30 in, $5 out, and $2 Bell hop and each man gets a buck. If you do the math in your head it appears if the $1 is missing but not really. If you do the math sequentialy rather than trying to go backwards. IE $30-$5=$25 + $2 + $3 = $30, rather than $10 each - $1 = $9 *3 +2= Won't work because of MDAS(MyDearAuntSally) or MultiplyDivideAddSubtract. IE accounting math vs Standard math. Clear as mudd right? I though so too.
This is actually an accounting issue. I saw it the first time in a math riddle book. It has to do with the way the accountants book receivables.
They show $30 in, $5 out, and $2 Bell hop and each man gets a buck. If you do the math in your head it appears if the $1 is missing but not really. If you do the math sequentialy rather than trying to go backwards. IE $30-$5=$25 + $2 + $3 = $30, rather than $10 each - $1 = $9 *3 +2= Won't work because of MDAS(MyDearAuntSally) or MultiplyDivideAddSubtract. IE accounting math vs Standard math. Clear as mudd right? I though so too.
Lloyd, dear heart, it's MATHS. Not Math. Please try hard to speak the Queens English correctly.
Robb.
Robb.
First, let me congratulate Robb for bringing this serious topic to light.
Now for johnnywatt answer...
Your riddle is simply a malformed illogical question designed to obfuscate and confuse.
The faulty reasoning lies in the addition at the end.
For those with time to waste, you might want to visit http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/trivia/dollar.htm
Excerpt follows:
-------------------------------------------------
Origins: Just about any bit of Internet effluvia, it seems, can be given new life by dressing it up with the claim that sending it along will cause something to "appear on your screen." Just as forwarding the latest silly message to umpteen friends will not cause a cute video clip to waltz across one's PC screen, sending this puzzler along to more people will not produce the correct answer (unless one of the recipients writes back with the solution).
This particular item stumps a good many people because it contains a simple error which is often overlooked due to its deceptive wording. Tracking the money through the transactions reveals that no money has gone missing:
1) The three men start out with $10 each ($10 x 3 = $30).
2) The three men pay $30 for a hotel room. Afterwards, a five dollar overcharge is returned to them ($25 + $5 = $30).
3) The bellboy divides up the $5 overcharge, returning $1 to each of the three men (for a total of $3) and keeping $2 for himself ($25 + $3 + $2 = $30).
Where did the missing dollar go? Nowhere. A dollar only goes "missing" because the statement "each man paid $9 for the room" is wrong -- each of three men paid out a total of $9, but that $9 included both the room charge and the bellboy's tip. All in all, each man paid out a total of $9 and had $1 left over, completely accounting for the $30 they started with.
The room cost $25, so each man paid one-third of that cost ($8.33). The bellboy kept a tip of $2, so each man paid one-third of that cost ($0.67) as well. Overall, each man paid out $9 ($8.33 + $0.67) and had a dollar left over: (3 x $9) + (3 x $1) = $27 + $3 = $30.
Any dollars still left unaccounted for may be sent to us for proper disposal
Now for johnnywatt answer...
Your riddle is simply a malformed illogical question designed to obfuscate and confuse.
The faulty reasoning lies in the addition at the end.
For those with time to waste, you might want to visit http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/trivia/dollar.htm
Excerpt follows:
-------------------------------------------------
Origins: Just about any bit of Internet effluvia, it seems, can be given new life by dressing it up with the claim that sending it along will cause something to "appear on your screen." Just as forwarding the latest silly message to umpteen friends will not cause a cute video clip to waltz across one's PC screen, sending this puzzler along to more people will not produce the correct answer (unless one of the recipients writes back with the solution).
This particular item stumps a good many people because it contains a simple error which is often overlooked due to its deceptive wording. Tracking the money through the transactions reveals that no money has gone missing:
1) The three men start out with $10 each ($10 x 3 = $30).
2) The three men pay $30 for a hotel room. Afterwards, a five dollar overcharge is returned to them ($25 + $5 = $30).
3) The bellboy divides up the $5 overcharge, returning $1 to each of the three men (for a total of $3) and keeping $2 for himself ($25 + $3 + $2 = $30).
Where did the missing dollar go? Nowhere. A dollar only goes "missing" because the statement "each man paid $9 for the room" is wrong -- each of three men paid out a total of $9, but that $9 included both the room charge and the bellboy's tip. All in all, each man paid out a total of $9 and had $1 left over, completely accounting for the $30 they started with.
The room cost $25, so each man paid one-third of that cost ($8.33). The bellboy kept a tip of $2, so each man paid one-third of that cost ($0.67) as well. Overall, each man paid out $9 ($8.33 + $0.67) and had a dollar left over: (3 x $9) + (3 x $1) = $27 + $3 = $30.
Any dollars still left unaccounted for may be sent to us for proper disposal
I don't think it will cahnge any time soon, because corporate America is run by the Stock Market and the only thing tha matters to them is the next quarter or at most the next years profits. Because of this corporate managers can't see beyond the base cost of an employee i.e. salary and benifits. So they would rather continue to train (Break-in) new employees, especially younger ones because they are cheaper, than to higher more experienced ones that don't need all that training. Even worse is the attitude that they would rather let the older, experienced (more expensive) employees go somewhere else rather than pay them enough to keep them and end up having to higher two new people to take their place and have to train them too. They will continue this cycle avery few years. About the time they get someone trained, they will refuse to pay them what they are worth. Then they start the cycle over again.
But then what do you expect from a society that wants everything now and can't see what may be needed down the road.
I know. I was there too long.
But then what do you expect from a society that wants everything now and can't see what may be needed down the road.
I know. I was there too long.
Same in UK. I've run my own support company for 7 years now and the rewards (not financial) are great. At 50+ (now 55) I found just the same - no interviews. Any one else who is concnerned, maybe you can work for yourself. There are plenty out there who would prefer a more mature support engineer on their site or in their home, than a youngster (no offence intended to the younger element)
Greg
Greg
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