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The Education Scam
We have blindly believed several lies told to us by our colleges and universities which are about to hit our economy very hard. The first of these lies is the simple minded concept that, if everyone got a college degree, there wouldn't be any poverty because everyone would have a good paying job. The second lie is that you cannot make a good living unless you get a college education.
Don't get me wrong, I believe in education. I have two college degrees and the second one has made it very difficult for me to get work. I will explain this more later.
Why Would Our Colleges Lie To Us?
The reason our colleges and universities have lied to us is to make everyone want to go to college. It sounds great but I will explain the negative side of everyone going to college later. The main thing here is that they have lied to us for decades in order to increase the demand for a college education. If the demand for a college education is high enough, then they can increase tuitions which will generate additional revenues for colleges. Increased demand for a college education also meant an increased demand for college professors and administrative staff which drove up salaries for college professors and administrative staff. Basically, they lied to increase their income. It has worked because tuitions and salaries have increased over the last 30 or more years by hundreds of percentiles.
Will College Educations Eliminate Poverty?
The lie that everyone getting a college education will eliminate poverty is just too simple minded and out of touch with reality. From World War II until as far as we can reasonably forecast into the future, 2030, the percentage of jobs requiring a college education has not and will not change. It has and will remain that only 20% of the jobs on the market will require a college education. That means that 80% of the jobs don't require a college education. There are and will only be so many jobs for people with a college degree regardless of how many people get a college degree.
Common sense should tell you that, if 21% of the workers get a college education, 1% of the work force will be unable to get a job requiring a college education and will be over qualified for lower level jobs. They will not have a skill or trade and will be forced to take jobs in unskilled labor with hopes that they will some day be able to get a job with their college degree. Unfortunately, if they are out of their industry too long, their degree becomes "aged" and becomes useless. These people can find themselves stuck in unskilled labor and poverty.
This has already occurred. I began hearing about this in the early 1990's and have sense personally experienced it myself. After I got my Master of Business Administration in 1996, I have not been able to get a job with it. It seems that with my personal experience, I should be paid in the range of at least $40,000 to over $65,000 for general management. There are so many MBA graduates with no experience who can be hired for less that no one wants me.
In the interim, I obtained a job working for America Online as a phone technician making $7 per hour. I was amazed that over half of the employees working there had one or more college degrees and were only making $7 per hour. As I talked to them, I found that they were all having the same problem. I met one person who had two PhD's and was only making $7 per hour and was glad to have it. Remember that this was at the time that businesses were claiming it was so hard to find college graduates to hire so they could import cheap labor from other countries.
Even during the present "booming" economy where unemployment has "plunged" a "whopping" two tenths of one percent in one year, the problem persists. Are we being lied to by our government and media or what?
What this over education of our society is doing, is that businesses now have the luxury of not hiring more experienced and more expensive labor and hiring less experienced and cheaper labor. This means that older people are increasingly finding it tougher to get jobs. These "older" people are getting younger. It started out being people in their 40's and 50's and is now happening to people in their 30's. Soon, it will get tougher on people of all ages.
I also heard that this has reached a point to where businesses are now even willing to risk law suits by firing more experienced employees to hire less experienced and cheaper labor. The courts are permitting the businesses to get away with this because they are claiming that the people are not being fired because of their age but because they are more expensive to employ. Therefore, goes their logic, it is because of cost and not age. Yeah, right!
This problem has reached a point to where, in California alone, there are over 1,500 complaints being filed with the government of California per year. How many more are not even bothering to file a complaint? And this is at a time when the economy is booming and they can't find qualified labor? Yeah, right. You better sell me another bridge because I am not buying that one.
More and more of these college educated people are being forced to accept jobs in unskilled labor making less than $10 per hour. This problem is approaching epidemic proportions and it is getting much worse.
The Coming Epidemic
In the summer of 1999, I heard a statistic which made me shudder but the simple minded media think it is great. It seems that more than 65% of our high school graduates are enrolled in college. That means that anywhere from 35% to over 50% of our work force will have a college degree within the next five to six years. Ouch! That means that anywhere from at least 15% to over 35% of our work force will be unemployable and forced to accept unskilled labor jobs. Poverty will not disappear, it will become very well educated. This could crash our economy in the next five to ten years.
The colleges and universities better think about this. When college graduates are a dime a dozen, who will want a college education? The demand will reverse and colleges, professors, and administrative staff will go broke and get to join the rest of us in our unskilled labor jobs making less than $10 per hour.
The Big Scare
The second lie was a big scare designed to make people fearful of not having their children go to college. They did "studies" showing that there was an increasing economic gap between those who go to college and those who don't. These are rigged studies. What they did was put skilled labor with unskilled labor so that we could not see that skilled labor makes pretty good money. As a matter of fact, many people in skilled labor are making as much or more money than many people who have college degrees. They didn't want you to know that so you would think that the only way your children could have a chance was to get a college education. You were scammed!
The truth is that you can make very good money as skilled labor and many of our self made millionaires come from skilled labor. Have they ever told you this? Of course not, they want you to be afraid of not sending your children to college. We gotta keep those college salaries high.
So What Is Going To Happen?
First, it should be common sense that the salaries for college jobs will at least freeze for a long time and probably begin to decrease. Think about it, if you have more people qualified for a job than there are jobs, people will be willing to work for less just to have a job. The businesses know this and will let us bid the salaries down to get the job.
But another problem is developing. Where are we getting all of these college students from? They are people who would have gone into skilled labor. We are going to develop a shortage on skilled labor. That means, in order to get the job done, businesses are going to have to bid for the remaining skilled labor. This will increase salaries for skilled labor. Where are these businesses going to get the extra money for the skilled labor they need to produce their product? You know they wont take it from their profits. The only place they can take it from will be the salaries they would have paid to college graduates. The businesses must bid down the college graduates' salaries to increase the salaries for the skilled labor.
If I had children in high school today, I would encourage them to go to a trade school, learn a trade, get very good at that trade, start their own business hiring others to do that trade, and make millions.
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The Education Scam
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I'd have to see some "real" numbers to believe the 50% mark. As it stands about 28% of the nation has a degree.
While AA degrees are becoming quite popular, it is simply the new vo-tech. An AA degree only ensures you can read and write, unlike a high school education.
BS/BA degress are about at the same level (slightly higher). While it is true the rate of people getting a BS/BA degree is increasing, you have to look at what the degree is in. The growth is partially because of "soft" degrees. Sure, I can be a fully degreed in Basket Weaving, but does it really mean anything? No.
Science and math degrees are hurting. The computer science field is in need of everything from the fresh faced recent BS grade to the slightly less than crusty PhD.
Plus you have your popular degrees (just like in the 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's). HR, the MBA, health (nursing, PA, pharmd, et al) and of course "soft" degrees are VERY popular. However, that won't last forever.
I think this article has been written every decade...it is like Y2k, but for education.
My 2 cents:
Get the education. Get the degree in the field of your choice and go for it. A degree will NEVER hurt you.
While AA degrees are becoming quite popular, it is simply the new vo-tech. An AA degree only ensures you can read and write, unlike a high school education.
BS/BA degress are about at the same level (slightly higher). While it is true the rate of people getting a BS/BA degree is increasing, you have to look at what the degree is in. The growth is partially because of "soft" degrees. Sure, I can be a fully degreed in Basket Weaving, but does it really mean anything? No.
Science and math degrees are hurting. The computer science field is in need of everything from the fresh faced recent BS grade to the slightly less than crusty PhD.
Plus you have your popular degrees (just like in the 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's). HR, the MBA, health (nursing, PA, pharmd, et al) and of course "soft" degrees are VERY popular. However, that won't last forever.
I think this article has been written every decade...it is like Y2k, but for education.
My 2 cents:
Get the education. Get the degree in the field of your choice and go for it. A degree will NEVER hurt you.
except, of course, while person A is busy getting his degree, person B is in the workforce making money and gaining experience. Once person A gets his degree, not only does he have to catch up experience wise, he has to repay his college loans! All for the "possibility" of more money down the road?
A degree will open MANY more doors for you than just plain ol' experience will.
With the IT market the way it is, a degree is the smartest long term investment one can make.
With the IT market the way it is, a degree is the smartest long term investment one can make.
That said the degree is a requirement, not because you need one to do the job but you do to get an interview.
Hot topic in the UK, by the way.
They are forecasting a 96% pass rate for 'A' levels, which is the qualigication you need to get into debt for a degree.
Th original poster's point that a degree wil get you a better job is well made though. After all if 96% of teh potential workforce get one in what way does it identify you as more 'intelligent' than anyone else.
Hot topic in the UK, by the way.
They are forecasting a 96% pass rate for 'A' levels, which is the qualigication you need to get into debt for a degree.
Th original poster's point that a degree wil get you a better job is well made though. After all if 96% of teh potential workforce get one in what way does it identify you as more 'intelligent' than anyone else.
However, what degree are they seeking? I know in the US we are having a major short fall of scientist and "hard" degree seeking people.
We do have a boon in the "soft" degrees (which are typically meaningless anyway).
We do have a boon in the "soft" degrees (which are typically meaningless anyway).
Success is being judged on quantity of passes not quality of the education.
Discipline is being chosen based on current market remuneration, not talent or interest.
I'd love to go to college and get a degree, but I'm already two years or so in advance of the theory they teach (academic inertia), my foundation in the subject is far stronger (1977 !), and there would be a big gap in my cv where I haven't kept current, so I'd have to be an imbecile to do it.
If an organisation wants more hard subjects to be taken, all they have to do is pay for it.
Left to their own devices and the 'get a degree to get a job' slogan cheap and easy is winning far too many times.
Discipline is being chosen based on current market remuneration, not talent or interest.
I'd love to go to college and get a degree, but I'm already two years or so in advance of the theory they teach (academic inertia), my foundation in the subject is far stronger (1977 !), and there would be a big gap in my cv where I haven't kept current, so I'd have to be an imbecile to do it.
If an organisation wants more hard subjects to be taken, all they have to do is pay for it.
Left to their own devices and the 'get a degree to get a job' slogan cheap and easy is winning far too many times.
Many of your points about college are on the right track. I remember reading that once 15% of adults in this country had gone to college, whereas now 85% of adults have gone to college, but only 15% have found that college makes a significant difference in their earning power.
Which brings us to your situation. A kid fresh out of school with only a BA can get a job as an assistant manager in a retail store or a restaurant making $20-30k/year, so I fail to understand why you can't do better than $7/hour.
I also did not follow the logic about how you can't get a job now that you have an MBA. Specifically, if companies can make do with MBA graduates with no experience for less than $40k/year, then your statement that "I should be paid in the range of at least $40,000 to over $65,000 for general management" is unsupported.
Your worth in the employment market is what you can get someone to pay you. Extra education or experience only matters if either:
1. you can't get in the door without it, or
2. employers pay you measurably better for having it than for not having it.
There are jobs that pay a premium for an MBA, but most of them involve selling. Many people don't want to touch sales with a stick. They'd rather make $7/hour than have to go out and sell. How about you?
Which brings us to your situation. A kid fresh out of school with only a BA can get a job as an assistant manager in a retail store or a restaurant making $20-30k/year, so I fail to understand why you can't do better than $7/hour.
I also did not follow the logic about how you can't get a job now that you have an MBA. Specifically, if companies can make do with MBA graduates with no experience for less than $40k/year, then your statement that "I should be paid in the range of at least $40,000 to over $65,000 for general management" is unsupported.
Your worth in the employment market is what you can get someone to pay you. Extra education or experience only matters if either:
1. you can't get in the door without it, or
2. employers pay you measurably better for having it than for not having it.
There are jobs that pay a premium for an MBA, but most of them involve selling. Many people don't want to touch sales with a stick. They'd rather make $7/hour than have to go out and sell. How about you?
I suspect there are a lot of people in this category. People who take a course to learn something they need/want to learn, without going for the full-blown degree.
I totally agree ... that dosnt mean im not
getting my degree ... but I see that a degree
really "means" nothing, sure it will get you past
HR ... thats the real problem and Ill rant on
that in a second. Education is so expensive
tuition has doubled in the last 5 years here and
after borrowing thousands upon thousands of
dollars people will be getting out of school deep
in debt and get a nice 30-40k year paying job. Oh
you need a car to commute the 45 minutes to your
job? WHAT?!? your car needs gas at
2.50-3.00/gallon? all of the sudden that car need
is making your nice low paying job even lower
paying. Not to mention that the cost of owning a
house is skyrocketing ... Im doing it but just
barley between me and my wife because we know its
better to do it now because prices will only rise
and building equity is better than paying rent.
Even if you take inflation in with the cost of
hosing going up .. very worst case picture Ill
break even ... thats still better than paying
rent which I will never see again.
Now on to HR where I believe the real problem
lies. HR is full of bumbling idiots, they screen
applicants based on criteria they dont know or
have the slightest understanding for, so a
perfectly qualified applicant will slip through
the cracks when 10 bafons with shiny resumes get
through the door ... yeah now the manager gets to
weed through them lets see ill pick the least
stinky poo out of this pile of poo ... you know
what I got poo and the good employee got away/was
not discoverd hurting him and the company. HR
needs to be a knowledagable field to be able to
competently look over a candidates credentials
not over who is the master of MS Word and who has
the shinyest resume.
getting my degree ... but I see that a degree
really "means" nothing, sure it will get you past
HR ... thats the real problem and Ill rant on
that in a second. Education is so expensive
tuition has doubled in the last 5 years here and
after borrowing thousands upon thousands of
dollars people will be getting out of school deep
in debt and get a nice 30-40k year paying job. Oh
you need a car to commute the 45 minutes to your
job? WHAT?!? your car needs gas at
2.50-3.00/gallon? all of the sudden that car need
is making your nice low paying job even lower
paying. Not to mention that the cost of owning a
house is skyrocketing ... Im doing it but just
barley between me and my wife because we know its
better to do it now because prices will only rise
and building equity is better than paying rent.
Even if you take inflation in with the cost of
hosing going up .. very worst case picture Ill
break even ... thats still better than paying
rent which I will never see again.
Now on to HR where I believe the real problem
lies. HR is full of bumbling idiots, they screen
applicants based on criteria they dont know or
have the slightest understanding for, so a
perfectly qualified applicant will slip through
the cracks when 10 bafons with shiny resumes get
through the door ... yeah now the manager gets to
weed through them lets see ill pick the least
stinky poo out of this pile of poo ... you know
what I got poo and the good employee got away/was
not discoverd hurting him and the company. HR
needs to be a knowledagable field to be able to
competently look over a candidates credentials
not over who is the master of MS Word and who has
the shinyest resume.
... to just slap a rubber band around all the resumes (not applications; more rant later) and forward them on to the tech manager who KNOWS what he needs and can choose same given the aforementioned pile of resumes.
Then and only then does HR need to do something:
Get the employee and emergency contact info.
Get the direct deposit going.
Get the benefits started.
Arrange for the ID card.
Start file and keep track so they know when to present 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 and 35 year awards, as well as a gold watch at retirement.
Then and only then does HR need to do something:
Get the employee and emergency contact info.
Get the direct deposit going.
Get the benefits started.
Arrange for the ID card.
Start file and keep track so they know when to present 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 and 35 year awards, as well as a gold watch at retirement.
speaking to a friend who works for a recruitment company, there are plenty of degrees looking for work, or better pay, or jobs that ACTUALLY fit with what they have the degree in..
yet, try and get a plumber in my area..i kid you not, last year i rang 18 differnt people/companies. Some said they would be out to me and never showed up, most had the decency to say they had no time. One chap said he'd come out, but he was from about 20 miles away, and had the goolies to say i'd have to pay triple rates.
Most trades people i know are getting rich..while those with IT degrees whine they can't get work..
puts your comments in perspective a bit
yet, try and get a plumber in my area..i kid you not, last year i rang 18 differnt people/companies. Some said they would be out to me and never showed up, most had the decency to say they had no time. One chap said he'd come out, but he was from about 20 miles away, and had the goolies to say i'd have to pay triple rates.
Most trades people i know are getting rich..while those with IT degrees whine they can't get work..
puts your comments in perspective a bit
Part of the problem is that many trades people are on a waiting list for the journeyman test!
Insurance rates are so high, in NY at least, that many people are getting out of the roofing business. They can't afford the rates. Last year I contacted 6 roofers for an estimate. Only one showed up.
Why is it articles like this are always written either by people who have 65 letters after their names but can only get a minimum wage job, or people who have never attended college but have made a couple of gajugamillion dollars anyway?
Point one: a college degree is NOT, repeat NOT, a ticket to ride. Having a degree, or degrees, does not automatically entitle the holder to fame and fortune. This insanely unrealistic expectation is why there are so, so many disgruntled people who went to college, did the work, got the degrees, and then found...OOOPS...the real world doesn't work the way they thought it did.
Point two: most institutions of higher education do NOT get their most significant revenue stream from tuition. They have endowments amounting to billions of dollars which throw off vast amounts of money from investments. They have very professional fundraising departments whose sole purpose is separating alumni from their money. They require their professors to perform world class research in headline grabbing areas in order to receive government and industrial grants, which is not only where the term "publish or perish" comes from but also why most seminars are taught by graduate assistants and not the professors themselves. Annual increases in tuition and fees typically significantly outstrip the inflation rate, not because colleges and universities need the money but because they're all keeping up with each other. It's simple market demand and market politics.
Point three: I have the utmost respect for people who dropped out of third grade and went on to make vast sums of money doing whatever it is they do. As a group, these folks represent a miniscule, teeny, tiny percentage of all people who do not have the benefit of a college education. We all see those infomercials about the postman who made a fortune in real estate...sorry, folks, there's no such thing as get rich quick, and the postman (if he really does exist and isn't just an invention of Guthy Renker) is nothing more than a statistical aberration. You can't draw any conclusions of any kind from looking at a few success stories and trying to extrapolate some cosmic truth from that.
Point one: a college degree is NOT, repeat NOT, a ticket to ride. Having a degree, or degrees, does not automatically entitle the holder to fame and fortune. This insanely unrealistic expectation is why there are so, so many disgruntled people who went to college, did the work, got the degrees, and then found...OOOPS...the real world doesn't work the way they thought it did.
Point two: most institutions of higher education do NOT get their most significant revenue stream from tuition. They have endowments amounting to billions of dollars which throw off vast amounts of money from investments. They have very professional fundraising departments whose sole purpose is separating alumni from their money. They require their professors to perform world class research in headline grabbing areas in order to receive government and industrial grants, which is not only where the term "publish or perish" comes from but also why most seminars are taught by graduate assistants and not the professors themselves. Annual increases in tuition and fees typically significantly outstrip the inflation rate, not because colleges and universities need the money but because they're all keeping up with each other. It's simple market demand and market politics.
Point three: I have the utmost respect for people who dropped out of third grade and went on to make vast sums of money doing whatever it is they do. As a group, these folks represent a miniscule, teeny, tiny percentage of all people who do not have the benefit of a college education. We all see those infomercials about the postman who made a fortune in real estate...sorry, folks, there's no such thing as get rich quick, and the postman (if he really does exist and isn't just an invention of Guthy Renker) is nothing more than a statistical aberration. You can't draw any conclusions of any kind from looking at a few success stories and trying to extrapolate some cosmic truth from that.
A degree is but one of many possible laurels one can obtain during one's life. It is up to each of us whether we choose to build upon our laurels... or rest on them!
Most of the time people either don't understand higher education or have not gotten a degree and complain about how expensive it is.
I'd like to point out there are tons of scholarships, grants, and re-payment programs out there.
Plus your local state school, while it may not be name brand, is inexpensive and depending on if it is seen as a party school or not, it might have a good reputation outside your state.
I'd like to point out there are tons of scholarships, grants, and re-payment programs out there.
Plus your local state school, while it may not be name brand, is inexpensive and depending on if it is seen as a party school or not, it might have a good reputation outside your state.
... the "brick-n-mortar" colleges whose sole purpose is to bring professional (excuse me, I meant college) football to Saturday afternoon.
A college diploma is no more a ticket to ride than certifications, hard work, or anything else for that matter. Putting yourself in the right place at the right time with the right skillset will keep you employed however.
(Tho I do think that services (outside of IT) have a leg up ... when Aunt Trudy jams up the sewer pipe at 9 PM, you aren't going to call the nearest BS, MS, PhD to get your plumbing right.)
Strangely, in this contractor-heavy IT department that I'm working in at present, not one of us would push our kids toward IT. Either our micro-community just has a bunch of kids who are skilled and gifted to do other things, or IT really isn't the career draw it was mere months ago.
A college diploma is no more a ticket to ride than certifications, hard work, or anything else for that matter. Putting yourself in the right place at the right time with the right skillset will keep you employed however.
(Tho I do think that services (outside of IT) have a leg up ... when Aunt Trudy jams up the sewer pipe at 9 PM, you aren't going to call the nearest BS, MS, PhD to get your plumbing right.)
Strangely, in this contractor-heavy IT department that I'm working in at present, not one of us would push our kids toward IT. Either our micro-community just has a bunch of kids who are skilled and gifted to do other things, or IT really isn't the career draw it was mere months ago.
back 100 years ago, most people were poor but hard working. These people were respected and respectable.
Now, if you are poor there is something wrong with you, and isn't it a shame?
Look at just how baddly people are off today. Some say how bad the economy is, but if you can say your better off than your parents were when they were your age then you have it pretty good and need to shutup and quit whining!
Take it a step further, where are you compaired to where your grandparents when they were your age? You will see that most have continuted to improve their situation.
Now, if you are poor there is something wrong with you, and isn't it a shame?
Look at just how baddly people are off today. Some say how bad the economy is, but if you can say your better off than your parents were when they were your age then you have it pretty good and need to shutup and quit whining!
Take it a step further, where are you compaired to where your grandparents when they were your age? You will see that most have continuted to improve their situation.
...maybe a slight exageration, but you're right that being poor has lost its 1950s cache of respectability. What's the difference between 30,000/year or 300,000/year if you work at what you love and have food and a house? It is a choice to buy into the hierarchy of judging yourself and others by tax bracket or by education. Also, I thought education (in the traditional "university" sense) had nothing to do with financial expectation, but primarily to learn how to think. It's a choice to buy into college as a vocational tool; and a bad choice. (In college I ignored "career path" and subsequently spent my life doing what I love to do without much pay.)
Got the education, but that is because work is paying for it.
I could make about 20 to 30 K more a year if I moved to Detroit or Lansing, but don't have an interest in that.
I like what I do and where I do it.
Sure, i travel a lot, hour each way to work but I work so I can do things with friends and family, not so I can have a fancy house.
Want less. It makes you apreaciate the things you do have.
I could make about 20 to 30 K more a year if I moved to Detroit or Lansing, but don't have an interest in that.
I like what I do and where I do it.
Sure, i travel a lot, hour each way to work but I work so I can do things with friends and family, not so I can have a fancy house.
Want less. It makes you apreaciate the things you do have.
that "He is richest whose pleasures are cheapest."
I give a lot of credence to 'old sayings', since they got to be old sayings for a reason
I give a lot of credence to 'old sayings', since they got to be old sayings for a reason
I'd far rather do what I love and get paid very little than do what I hate and be able to live like a king.
Of course, what I do and what I love just happen to pay decently (solid middle class), so I'm not rich, but I am very happy.
Of course, what I do and what I love just happen to pay decently (solid middle class), so I'm not rich, but I am very happy.
... on to a truck hurtling down the freeway at 100 mph.
It's getting harder every day to keep up.
It's getting harder every day to keep up.
will get you where you want to go, with or without a "formal" education. Dave Thomas (Wendy's) dropped out of high-school!
Those that drop out or do not pursue higher education are doomed to fail. If you don't have at least a high school education you will have a VERY hard time finding a job.
Even the military makes you get a GED to get in...what makes you think corporate America will let you in the door?
While I agree higher education has its place and not everyone can get a degree, you have to realize:
1) A degree does not mean you will get a job
2) A degree does not mean you will get a high paying job
3) A degree only opens doors
While degrees aren't for everyone, you always need some sort of proof you know what you are doing. My local CC has a HUGE trade program that trains everyone from auto mechanics to welders (I don't think there is a trade that starts x,y, or z). You still have to go through the trade program and become a journeyman or get certified (ASE for instance) to get a job.
Even the military makes you get a GED to get in...what makes you think corporate America will let you in the door?
While I agree higher education has its place and not everyone can get a degree, you have to realize:
1) A degree does not mean you will get a job
2) A degree does not mean you will get a high paying job
3) A degree only opens doors
While degrees aren't for everyone, you always need some sort of proof you know what you are doing. My local CC has a HUGE trade program that trains everyone from auto mechanics to welders (I don't think there is a trade that starts x,y, or z). You still have to go through the trade program and become a journeyman or get certified (ASE for instance) to get a job.
I think a growing number of people are afraid of the knacks or intuition some people have for things (like they think we're witches or something), and that if you can't explain what you're doing so that a five-year-old can do it, they don't want you around.
Not that I think intuition is magic, I just think it's just uses logic that is unseen to the observer, and probably to the performer as well.
I think it still boils down to work ethic. If you have that, then you are going to learn what you need to learn, whether through formal or self education, to be successful. And if you don't have it, sleeping through four or more years of college isn't going to help you one bit.
"you always need some sort of proof you know what you are doing"
I do, it's called 'results'
Not that I think intuition is magic, I just think it's just uses logic that is unseen to the observer, and probably to the performer as well.
I think it still boils down to work ethic. If you have that, then you are going to learn what you need to learn, whether through formal or self education, to be successful. And if you don't have it, sleeping through four or more years of college isn't going to help you one bit.
"you always need some sort of proof you know what you are doing"
I do, it's called 'results'
However, that piece of paper (esp for graduate studies) means that at least they can come up with something orginal.
Most schools now have senior projects or something of the sort.
On that note: I've seen an un-degreed worker runs rings around a degreed and certified worker...that isn't to say the opposite isn't true (it is).
What the piece of paper proves is that you have a strong foundation and are able to stick with something for at least 4 years.
Most schools now have senior projects or something of the sort.
On that note: I've seen an un-degreed worker runs rings around a degreed and certified worker...that isn't to say the opposite isn't true (it is).
What the piece of paper proves is that you have a strong foundation and are able to stick with something for at least 4 years.
There is so much wrong with this I'll only coment on the basic premis.
"...if everyone got a college degree, there wouldn't be any poverty because everyone would have a good paying job. The second lie is that you cannot make a good living unless you get a college education."
Where does this come from? Where are your references? I've never heard a respectable college or University make such claims. And I work in higher ed.
"...if everyone got a college degree, there wouldn't be any poverty because everyone would have a good paying job. The second lie is that you cannot make a good living unless you get a college education."
Where does this come from? Where are your references? I've never heard a respectable college or University make such claims. And I work in higher ed.
I think people miss understand: "Get an education" and think it means "Get a college education."
There are plenty of good trade schools and AA programs out there.
There are plenty of good trade schools and AA programs out there.
the drinking helps. Getting here in the first place you just need a car with a leaky exaust system.
... here in New England. It seems like all of the garages are charging $60/hour for labor. Even after you take out the overhead the garages could be paying the mechanics as much as $40/hour. All of the good garages are very busy here.
I would recommend that anyone in New England who is interested in cars should think about learning auto mechanics. I believe that there are a lot of schools for this.
I would recommend that anyone in New England who is interested in cars should think about learning auto mechanics. I believe that there are a lot of schools for this.
Car Mechanics probably make $40k-$50k/year! They have a pretty interesting job, but I guess it could be high stress.
Plus, if they make an error someone's life could be on the line...
Plus, if they make an error someone's life could be on the line...
A two man company just replaced our sewer out to the street and all the drains in the basement. $125 per hour plus parts. His helper only made $17.50 of that. So he's making over $100 an hour.
I guess if you're in a "gotta have" trade, you can do that.
I guess if you're in a "gotta have" trade, you can do that.
Man, those guys can just charge what they want and get away with it.
Plumbers can make around $80k/year doing "grunt" work. Hell, if IT suddenly dries up, I'm going into plumbing.
Plumbers can make around $80k/year doing "grunt" work. Hell, if IT suddenly dries up, I'm going into plumbing.
All the great plumbers are doing construction or major renovation work. What us average home owners get are the ripoff artists and scammers.
I have no doubt that great plumbers make far more than an IT manager like me.
James
I have no doubt that great plumbers make far more than an IT manager like me.
James
Hot & stinkin' humid in the summer, cold in the winter.
Services, I tell ya ... a license to print money.
Services, I tell ya ... a license to print money.
Who told you what you've learnt is relevant.
What proof have you that you can apply what you've learnt.
In what way are you more valuable than all the others with the same qualification.
The world does not owe you a living, you want one go out and earn it, your education should give you a better chance at and more opportunities to do so. It does not give you the right.
Learn a trade and make millions employing others ? MBA is the qualification for a chance to do that not a vocational qualification in plumbing.
Sitting about waiting for someone to serve you a full plate is not going to make you successful at anything.
Do yourself a big favour, wake the f**k up, and stop wasting yourself waiting for handouts.
What proof have you that you can apply what you've learnt.
In what way are you more valuable than all the others with the same qualification.
The world does not owe you a living, you want one go out and earn it, your education should give you a better chance at and more opportunities to do so. It does not give you the right.
Learn a trade and make millions employing others ? MBA is the qualification for a chance to do that not a vocational qualification in plumbing.
Sitting about waiting for someone to serve you a full plate is not going to make you successful at anything.
Do yourself a big favour, wake the f**k up, and stop wasting yourself waiting for handouts.
The secret of success in life is work. I know the very people you are talking about and I suppose they are still sitting at 6.50 or 8 dollar an hour jobs back where I met them. But they didn't get the point of an education, and apparently you didn't either.
First, no school I have ever heard of advertises that you are guaranteed a job by graduating. Most assuredly not guaranteed a specific job, at a specific pay rate. The hope would be that children focused on college would learn to work for something. If you were to say that high school and college is getting too easy, then you would have a point.
Second, I have seen those studies but they fall very short of the slant you place on them. I would expect that the majority of capable graduates entering the workforce with the motivation that succeeding in college would earn more than the majority of high school graduates that didn't go on to college because their performance in high school was designed just to get them out of it.
Yes, I graduated and then looked for a job. That was an adventure, and I started out making the minimum wage that you are describing in Tech support. But 6 months later, I was in a new and better job, at the same company. 6 months later I was in a new company still doing tech support on the phone, but earning twice as much. 6 months later I was at a new company doing tech support and earning a few dollars more.
Each job offered me three things, some training even if not a certification, experience and references, and a paycheck. Within 4 years of my entry into the tech work force I landed a salaried job. This company was located by some of the contacts I had made in my tech support career. And I got it because I had and still have a reputation as some one who works harder than any one else.
The secret was not my degree, which after all is in Political Science. It is that I can work. Now you may say "Ah Ha! Your degree is worthless." and you would be wrong. I didn't go to college to learn how to work, or to gain the skills to do a trade. I went because I have a thirst for knowledge, and college was the next place to get more.
If all you want is a trade, then you are right, College is a waste. But if you want to expand your horizons and get a chance to study and explore your future, then go and learn, not about what is out there, but what is inside you. If you had done that you probably would not have posted this rant.
Work is the secret, there is no substitute for work, and those who hate work will never be satisfied with any mere job.
First, no school I have ever heard of advertises that you are guaranteed a job by graduating. Most assuredly not guaranteed a specific job, at a specific pay rate. The hope would be that children focused on college would learn to work for something. If you were to say that high school and college is getting too easy, then you would have a point.
Second, I have seen those studies but they fall very short of the slant you place on them. I would expect that the majority of capable graduates entering the workforce with the motivation that succeeding in college would earn more than the majority of high school graduates that didn't go on to college because their performance in high school was designed just to get them out of it.
Yes, I graduated and then looked for a job. That was an adventure, and I started out making the minimum wage that you are describing in Tech support. But 6 months later, I was in a new and better job, at the same company. 6 months later I was in a new company still doing tech support on the phone, but earning twice as much. 6 months later I was at a new company doing tech support and earning a few dollars more.
Each job offered me three things, some training even if not a certification, experience and references, and a paycheck. Within 4 years of my entry into the tech work force I landed a salaried job. This company was located by some of the contacts I had made in my tech support career. And I got it because I had and still have a reputation as some one who works harder than any one else.
The secret was not my degree, which after all is in Political Science. It is that I can work. Now you may say "Ah Ha! Your degree is worthless." and you would be wrong. I didn't go to college to learn how to work, or to gain the skills to do a trade. I went because I have a thirst for knowledge, and college was the next place to get more.
If all you want is a trade, then you are right, College is a waste. But if you want to expand your horizons and get a chance to study and explore your future, then go and learn, not about what is out there, but what is inside you. If you had done that you probably would not have posted this rant.
Work is the secret, there is no substitute for work, and those who hate work will never be satisfied with any mere job.
A refreshing amount of sense in there.
I've never been sure that college is the best place to learn, one thing I can say for definite though is while you could learn a great deal, you won't learn anything about the real world in the cloistered security of academia.
Contrary to what some whould have us believe, the only way to climb a ladder is to start at the bottom.
I've never been sure that college is the best place to learn, one thing I can say for definite though is while you could learn a great deal, you won't learn anything about the real world in the cloistered security of academia.
Contrary to what some whould have us believe, the only way to climb a ladder is to start at the bottom.
The difference between a labourer, skilled or unskilled, and an educated college graduate is only a bit of book learning. And what is the book learning? It is where someone had previously gone about talking to the labourers of all types and writting down what they were told about the work that the labourers did. BTW early scientist were just labourers with and interst in something other than hauling hay etc and had the opportunity to delve into their interest.
You have some good points about the value or non value of education. you also missed out on the fact that the people doing the studies etc have vested interests in encouraging more higher education - it justifies their high salaries and jobs.
Personally I have seen top level meetings with university graduates being made to look like fools because they had degrees but no actual experience and thus the non-graduates with years of experience knew about ten times the amount of information as the graduates as they had been out doing it instead of reading about it.
I was once refused an interview for a job in anarea that was restructuring their financial arrangemetns as I had not done the local short course on the new methodology and system to be used. the people organising the interviews and overlooked the fact that two of the main documents being used to teach in the course were written by me and I was a guest lecturer at the course. Seems the organisers thought that people with the proper qualification and degree had to know more than those who created the system. great way to get a job done.
You have some good points about the value or non value of education. you also missed out on the fact that the people doing the studies etc have vested interests in encouraging more higher education - it justifies their high salaries and jobs.
Personally I have seen top level meetings with university graduates being made to look like fools because they had degrees but no actual experience and thus the non-graduates with years of experience knew about ten times the amount of information as the graduates as they had been out doing it instead of reading about it.
I was once refused an interview for a job in anarea that was restructuring their financial arrangemetns as I had not done the local short course on the new methodology and system to be used. the people organising the interviews and overlooked the fact that two of the main documents being used to teach in the course were written by me and I was a guest lecturer at the course. Seems the organisers thought that people with the proper qualification and degree had to know more than those who created the system. great way to get a job done.
However, the grad students that thought they knew all probably only squeaked through grad school. I will (and always have) tell people when I don't know something and will let the SMEs take over.
Part of what education does for you is (typically) help you to think critically and think outside of the box. Sometimes, some people get too ingrained in the "by the book" mentality and can't get out of it.
HR is an issue. I was denied a job because I have a MS CS and a BS CS, not a BA CS (I didn't even know they existed until that time, but I guess that is what they wanted). Strange...
Part of what education does for you is (typically) help you to think critically and think outside of the box. Sometimes, some people get too ingrained in the "by the book" mentality and can't get out of it.
HR is an issue. I was denied a job because I have a MS CS and a BS CS, not a BA CS (I didn't even know they existed until that time, but I guess that is what they wanted). Strange...
The problem that I have encountered in Australia is not the HR people insisting on anything, but most of the graduates who are in charge of the area have this automatic assumption that you know absolutely nothing unless you have a degree. As an example one place where I applied for several jobs and never got an interview were suddenly interested in interviewing me once I was able to quote a post grad qualification in my application despite it being in a subject that was nothing today with the work area; crazy people.
FYI I got a business management post grad qual before I got any graduate quals and the diploma is in IT. I was doing a course and they changed the quals you finished with whilst I was doing it - sheesh, talk about crazy way of doing things.
The other big problem I have noticed with most tertiary students in Australia is that they tend to come out of the unis believing that the book is the ONLY way of doing things. Too many professors insist that it be done by the book and losing marks for going outside the box causes them to shy away from original thinking.
FYI I got a business management post grad qual before I got any graduate quals and the diploma is in IT. I was doing a course and they changed the quals you finished with whilst I was doing it - sheesh, talk about crazy way of doing things.
The other big problem I have noticed with most tertiary students in Australia is that they tend to come out of the unis believing that the book is the ONLY way of doing things. Too many professors insist that it be done by the book and losing marks for going outside the box causes them to shy away from original thinking.
Book think is an epidemic that must be squashed! While books have their place, not being able to put 2 and 2 together means that you are no better than a green with no education.
Arg, the profs that insist that the ONLY way to do things is through the book need to be fired. I had a person on my graduate commitee who thought that if I was even a millimeter outside of the box it had to be wrong.
Keep in mind, these profs are usually the old guard and will be gone soon, but not soon enough.
Arg, the profs that insist that the ONLY way to do things is through the book need to be fired. I had a person on my graduate commitee who thought that if I was even a millimeter outside of the box it had to be wrong.
Keep in mind, these profs are usually the old guard and will be gone soon, but not soon enough.
which is very sad as most were hired because they think the book is everything, the people who hired them think the same. I had to laugh hard at one lot of professor at one uni recently - seems recent research has proven about 40% of what they were teaching was wrong and they were quoted in the local media about not knowing how to adjust their classes and lessons to account for the changed information. seems they wanted to go on teaching what they knew to teach instead of elarning the new more accurate information. And for this they get paid big bucks, grrrr. In most of our education systme here you can get a job teaching almost anything if you have a teaching degree, you don;t even have to have much experience in the subject.
I have seen a person with a uni teaching degree and next to no subject knowledge get a job teaching IT when another person with decades of IT experience and IT diplomas and a basic teaching certificate from the TAFE was seen as not qualified enough to teach IT. Now the second person makes heaps tutoring the people being taught by the 'qualified' teacher as he does not teach enough IT knowledge to actual pass the exams. grrrr, ivory towered dead heads and ther\ir 'degree is more important' attitude.
I have seen a person with a uni teaching degree and next to no subject knowledge get a job teaching IT when another person with decades of IT experience and IT diplomas and a basic teaching certificate from the TAFE was seen as not qualified enough to teach IT. Now the second person makes heaps tutoring the people being taught by the 'qualified' teacher as he does not teach enough IT knowledge to actual pass the exams. grrrr, ivory towered dead heads and ther\ir 'degree is more important' attitude.
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