Discussion on:

Whatever happened to entry-level as I remembered it?

I graduated November 2004 from a well-known and established private university. I worked four long years in order to obtain my Bachelor of Science degree in (IT) Information Technology. I was exposed to theory, concept, and procedure in a myriad of fields in the IT sector. Not to "hip" on programming, but I realize I should know at least two languages. The difficulty I am having is landing that "entry-level" position. Sure! The ads in the newspaper state entry-level, but when you read them, they ask for 3-5 years experience. Are there no entry-level IT jobs out there that are actually entry-level as I remembered what entry-level used to be? You know, a "green horn," "Wet behind the ears," and a "newbee."

For example: I went to an interview the other day for IT Help Desk. Some questions they asked me consisted of VPN's, Active Directory, DNS, and even if a node was down on a WAN from Texas to my location, how could I tell what was wrong? I knew what these things where, but to answer them with fixes, I was baffled. I have never been in an IT position before, so I how do I make that transition in order to obtain the hands-on experience? I would like to build Websites, but I only have a basic understanding from school. I have no peers in my circle of friends involved with IT, so it is difficult for me to turn to someone who is knowledgeable. None of my friends understand the things I talk about. All I have are my books, but sometimes even when you read, you reach sticky points in all the techno-babble.

Another thing, my wife says I am too old, they want younger men. I am 42 and interested in making my families life better. I am not afraid of hard work. I am a people person, I have integrity, and I am an amiable guy willing to learn.

That's what they want, it's not what they are going to get in 99.999% of cases. If you feel you can do the job as described apply, HR will ask you whether you think you can do the job, say yes and hopefully you'll get judged by someone who knows something about IT.
What was you're earlier career, your best bet for a foot in is to use your previous experience/contacts and look for a job in that industry with an IT angle.

I was Administrative Support for a meat manufacturing company. They had no IT people and the CEO had a PC behind him that just collected dust. In fact, we would borrow parts from his PC when he was not there.

So what you are saying is all this experience they want is not what it seems? They want to shoot for the moon, but may settle for less?

'cept they really thing we are daft enough to gain 3 years experience and then take their entry level job. After all if we were clever we'd have got a degree in advanced flower arranging and competed with them.

You might be thinking about your previous experience a bit narrowly, look for IT in related areas, food processing etc. Manufacturing puts a different slant on IT as it's much more support oriented and reactive.
I've see a lot of office type IT people really struggle with it as they think they should have twenty-two and half meetings studying the impact of changing a variable name, whereas us production types, just change the bugger if it doesn't fix the problem we change it back again and try something else.

I've been working in the IT industry for 3 years now; I had no experience, so i decided to study part time I.T at Teesside uni (UK). After 1 year of study and working as a painter and decorator I got a full time job as a 1st line helpdesk agent, learnt and understood how to react to network and software problems quite quickly as the in house training was spot on. After 9 months I got promoted to a software tool set administrator. 6 months ago I left that company for a slightly smaller company employed as network admin earning twice as much money with a full carrier path in front. I have to say the helpdesk really shapes you to work in the I.T industry.

Hi Rephlex,

Last Friday I went to an interview for a Tier One Help Desk Rep. Tuesday, I found out by the staffing agent that they really liked me, but I did not have enough experience. Experience, whatever happened to entry-level? I went to school, but I did not get any real hands-on training. Maybe I should have gone to a tech school instead of college.

K

try a tech support position for an ISP. they will hire people with no experience. it is a great place to learn. classroom is different from real world. as a tech for an ISP you will deal with a broad spectrum of operating systems. after a short stay you could add the experience portion to your resume. that is where i started.
and it was very useful.
and, not to start a different topic, but, a few certs would not hurt if you do not have any.

I have a degree in teaching (Design and Technology) but not in computers.I am now working for the NHS (UK) in IT Desktop Support doing 1st Line, 2nd Line, etc. I used to teach, but enjoyed the computer side more. I gave up teaching, set up my own business building PC's installing networks etc and got my current job based on 20 years experience with PC's from DOS, Novell and all versions of windows. I believe it was experience they wanted rather than just IT qualifications (which I still don't have. I would advise concentrating on practical hands on to apply your knowledge. Having sat on a panel before employing IT tech's I know that not one person satisfies all criteria for the job. Just keep applying and don't give up! I am now 45 and work with other lads in their 20's - age shouldn't be a factor!

Keep your spirits up.

I spent several years in the US Army as a truck driver. I drove all different types of trucks from pick ups to semis. I drove in Vietnam, Europe, Korea, and the US. I drove during monsoon season in axle deep mud, during the winter in snow up to the doors on a semi, and during the summer when the non air conditioned cabs roasted you alive. In Europe I drove across national borders and had to deal with all the customs stuff involved. Not to mention driving through an ambush while being shot at by the enemy.

When I left the military and looked for civilian work I was told over and over by the bigger companies that I had no experience! It took 6 years of driving anything that I could find before I got hired by a really good company.

I also left that career much as you have done and went to college in my late 30's. After 4 years of hard work to earn the degree I was back at square one being told I had no experience. Once again it took 5 years of doing anything that the head hunters and leasing companies could find for me before I landed a good job in IT.

The morale is... if you want it bad enough, and you are willing to do anything and everything it takes to get in, the door will open.

My approach was to send my resume to all the ads in the paper, and to all the staffing companies. You'd be surprised... sometimes those lousey looking 6 month contracts turn into the job of your dreams.

I initally went to a tech school, and could not find a job, even tho I graduated with a 3.5-4.0 GPA so I decided to finish my degree, which I will proudly have in 5 months-But, I still do not have a job. Entry-level or otherwise. Before all of the schooling, I was a waitress-and at this point, I feel I may have to return to it in order to pay off all of my student loans-which are very steep by now.

Don't let it get to you. At least, as a waitress you can work nights while you hunt for the job during the day. You may find that you also need certifications. You probably will. I'm working on mine. Don't let it get to you, just keep on plugging away. The advice given on government jobs was good. One thing that wasn't emphasised was that the governemnt cannot discriminate based on sex or age. Well, at least not in non-combat related jobs.

if they go the operations route.
Support was a big part(over 50%) of my first two jobs in IT, before that I was one of the supported. I think all developers should do some time there it's gives you a good appreciation for the sorts of problems developers without that experience tend to consider unimportant in their job and therefore cause, instead of cope with / prevent.

I used to work in Customer Service for Anthem and went back to get my Associates Degree in CS. I had several people tell me when I first started looking that they liked my personality and thought I was a real go-getter but still didn't have enough experience.

I went back to my Advisor and spoke to her about my experience and they actually had a work study program. I got my foot in the door at a local business as a 2nd level support person where I got some great experience in both hardware and software and found I had a nack for working with software.

That ended and after about 18 months - still just shy of the 2 years most places want you to have when applying for an IT job. It was still hard to land my first job with a company where I could really dig in to the job and get benefits, vacation, etc.

What I recommend is this -
1. See if your institution has a placement program. Many times they have a career office where they can work with local businesses that are looking for college students for internships, and other entry-level positions.

2. I agree with Tony's comments on using your past experience to put a spin on what you can offer to a company. I used my customer service experience to help land my helpdesk job. One of the things that I love about IT is that you don't always have to have the answers right away. As long as you can find an answer or give an action plan to resolve the issue, this is what they are looking for.

3. Don't be afraid to network. Look in your area for a Windows User Group and attend their meetings and functions. Create business cards and pass them out. It is a great way to get a feel for different companies and people will remember you from the event.

4. When applying for a position, research the company and try to cater your responses to how you can be an asset to the company for what they are in business for. Most companies have a website - look them over, use a demo of their software if they have it available on line(that is a plus too and they know you mean business).


Hope this helps too!

Good Luck and keep your chin up! It can take awhile to land that first job, but once you do, the sky is the limit.

I had a rough start myself and now have been working in the industry for 7+ years now. Keep your perseverance, it will pay off.

I remember the first few years I was trying to get work experience back in 1982. I recall interviews where they would say "if you can fix this problem, I'll hire you". Trouble was nobody had ANY knowledge of the technology (as an example: there was an automated display system that was showing interference - likely an electrical issue more than an IT issue!) - anyway, I could not solve the problem, so their response was "oh well"!
If you have a family, working as a volunteer can be a tough choice. Going back to school to get a higher degree (M.Sc.) can also be tough financially, especially after the 4-year grind of getting the B.Sc.
What worked for me back in '82, and which hopefully exists in some form where you live, was a "career kickstart program" - the one I was in lined up employers willing to provide experience to newbees in exchange for paying them a relatively low salary. In additon, the employer only paid 50% of my salary, with the rest coming from Goverment. The employer got a dirt cheap worker, and I got the experience I so desperately needed.
I made crappy money for 2 years, but then got into a better paying position, and haven't looked back since then.
Another approach you could try, is if you have a hobby or skill, and try to get into It indirectly. I remember calling every drum manuacturer in my city (since I'm a drummer) hoping to get in the IT shops of drum manufacturers based on my knowledge of drums (i.e. at least I could contribute SOME knowledge on SOME topic!). It wasn't really successful for me since most responded with "we don't even have a calculator around here, never mind a computer". But I think you get the concept...try thinking in that regard as well to find employment.
Best of luck in your search for IT employment. I'm sure you'll find something in the end....

I agree with your points. The fact is, the ONLY thing that matters to the company hiring you is the ability to do the job. And the only way to demostrate you can do the job is a track record. I don't have a degree, just tons of industry experience and vendor certifications. I beat out several people with newly minted degrees because I had a demonstrated track record and ability to do the job. None of the IT jobs posted here require a degree, they all say "degree + 2 years experience, or Diploma + 3 years experience, or No formal education and 5+ years experience". The experience is more valuable than the degree, I would suggest people forgo the formal education and instead spend that time and money doing as much volunteer and entry level work as possible, in the end it's worth more. Degrees don't fix things, people do.

There is a lot of good advice in these postings. This is a hard market to make a change in. Moving from your previous background to IT was not an overnight decision. It shows that you evaluated where you were, and where you want to be. That shows that you can make tough decisions. You can play on that because in IT, you have to make tough decisions based on time, priorities and resources. Your otherwise lack of technical "on-the-job" skills, or proficiency is what they are questioning. Find a way to get some "hands-on" time and take that argument away from them. Play up your sound judgement, your willingness to change things for the better will put a positive spin on things.

I too made a similar change in 91, stepping out from Telco into WAN/LAN. I went to night school at UW-Milw. for a start. You may want to Google for clubs, organization local to you that can help you along the way. You have to cast a wide net to catch the right position when making the change. Good Luck to you!

When I am feeling like I may have wasted my time going to college, it is people like you that make me push on with your positive comments and suggestions. Thank you!

K

I've been skimming the advice, but I haven't seen anyone state the obvious...

Why doesn't the school help you find a job? Every college has a career office, where the goal is to help you find a job. Some colleges even offer these services to alumni whenever they have been let go, or are looking to change positions.

The reason... they want the alumni to be in good successful jobs, where they might be able to give back to the university. Simply put, they want you to do well, so you will give back to the alma mater.

Check with your university. Find out what they can do to help you with lining up companies, the interview process, whatever. Look back and see what kind of companies have interviewed people with your degree in the past. Colleges keep good records of all the people who have come out to interview on campus. Contact some of these companies, ask them about any available positions. "I've noticed you have hired people with my degree from this university before, I was wondering if you might have any positions matching my degree, or if I might be able to talk with one of your IT managers about positions with your company".

The main thing is make the university work for you. You've paid a lot of money to earn that degree, get them to help you out!

Another thing many people don't think about is using the alumni association to look up people from earlier graduating classes, and contact them about positions as well. The main thing is to network, and you'll find something eventually. But don't just count on the online job boards, or the want ads in the paper. And headhunters are looking for those with years and years expereince, because they are the ones that will bring in the most commission, not the entry-level position.

Hope this helps!!!!!

When I graduate from college in 2001 the technology bubble had popped and I quickly found myself competing against applicants with 10, 15, or 20 years of experience. In most cases, these more experienced applicants were being rewarded with the jobs. Realizing that I may be with out a job in the industry that I had just spent years studying, I quickly turned to the federal government job pools. Many government agencies, in my case the DoD, are willing to hire and train applicants with little or no experience. This may be an avenue for you to start your career. Working for the government (federal) has many benefits and with the new pay grades the pay is really good. Just make sure that you are in the IT pay scale not the general pay scale. A good place to start is: www.usajobs.opm.gov.

Further more, do not feel discourage about the time spent to get your degree. I firmly believe that your degree will pay off. It is true that experience is important to show a track record. However, it has been my experience that the theory you have been taught will allow you to have a fundamental understanding of many facets of this industry. In a few years, you will be an applicant with 3 to 5 years of experience and a degree!

If you have additional questions, please feel free to contact me or reply to this post. Good luck with your search.

I was once in the exact same situation you're in now, or I was thirty years ago. As yourself, IT was a career change for me and I trained to enter a new field. I won't bore you with my background and experience, but suffice to say it's varied. I?ve continuously had IT responsibility, but for a number of years, I also ran a very highly respected IT training institute that produced over 10,000 graduates. With that in mind, I can tell you there have always been entry level jobs. Likewise, many employers have always wanted three to five years experience at an entry level salary, although they seldom get it. That problem is the employer?s as much as it is yours. In my experience, few interviewers/employers rarely know what they really need. Many of the responses here are offering good advice. In light of your age I would agree that you?re far more likely to be successful in your job search if you focus on smaller companies, particularly where IT supports the business rather than ?is? the business. Yes, age discrimination is illegal but it?s also rampant, especially in IT. Be observant when on an interview. If you don?t see people in your age range don?t expect or hope for a job offer. What?s most important is that you maintain a positive attitude. Without it you?ll sabotage every interview as you walk in the door. Also maintain confidence in your ability without being cocky or acting like a know it all. Self confidence is something you wear on your sleeve; if an interviewer doesn?t see it, you?ll seldom get a job offer. With respect to those technical questions you can?t answer, I say this. I?ve never met anyone in the field, coming out of school, or walking on the street for that matter, who didn?t know more about at least one thing than I do. Technical questions should be designed to test the depth and breathe of your knowledge; personally, I?ve always used these questions to try to determine whether an applicant was a student as well as a practitioner. Understand that every position has a technical threshold that must be satisfied, if you don?t meet it you?re rejected immediately. That does not necessarily mean you have be an expert. Are you as ?expert? in IT as you?ll ever be or hope to be? Certainly not at this stage. Beyond that it?s the intangibles that make the difference in the selection of an applicant. A job interview is a sales pitch. Pick up a good book on interview technique. It will identify those intangibles and explain how to sell them. You would be surprised at how many companies don?t realize that those intangibles are as important to them, and sometimes more important than present technical knowledge. Most people changing careers have skills and experience that are universally applicable. What are yours? Identify them and don?t be afraid to emphasize them (note, I didn?t say to grossly exaggerate). Lastly, you went to school (or back to school) for a reason. Has that changed? You?ve had the determination to complete your degree. You put in the time and the effort and I commend you for it; I did it myself and, as I said earlier, I saw 10,000 other people do it. Are you any less determined to start a career in IT? Don?t be. And don?t just accept rejection. After a rejection letter, don?t be afraid to call back and ask why. You?ll be surprised at the number of honest answers that you get. Learn from each rejection and put it to work for you on the next interview.

Dear Sir;
Just had to take a minute to state that I couldn't agree with you more.
This is the kind of article that should also be sent out to some of the people hiring these days. Might give them a better idea of what to look for and what questions to ask. Very astute of you to notice this lack on both sides of the issue.
But, I digress. My intent was only to tell you that I thought your article excellent well done, succinct and hit the nail right on the head.
Regards
Aaron A Baker

Very well put! So how do you go about finding volunteer work or people that will take you in for lower pay? What kind of low pay? The lowest I can afford to go in ID, is $10.00 hour. I still have to make a living, and not to mention my student loan is on one year deferment. I have been here almost two-months and to no avail...with the job search.

Do you have any suggestions?

K

Have you thought about contacting temp agencies? I'm the Dir. of MIS for a temp agency and our IT department often has entry-level support jobs. Here in New York City those jobs may pay $15 and up.

As far as your college education goes, don't ever regret it. I've been the Dir. of MIS for 6+ years. I'm trying to get a job with more of a programming focus and I keep hearing "well, if you had a CS degree...", which I don't have. I have an M.S. in Psychology (long story).

I really do like the suggestions that people have given you regarding contacting other companies with some similarity to your former company. Don't be afraid to work ANY connection you have, even if you don't think it will be a good one. You never know when a friend of a friend's uncle will have a food processing company with a newly computerized accounting department that needs support.

Another way to get in can be to come in at a different angle. I was an IT Recruiter first. Then I suggested to my company that they could use me more effectively as an onsite tech support person, so they gave me a try. They have never regretted giving me a chance, and I have never regretted changing careers!

- C

Thanks for words of encouragement Rolf.

K

Sure there's a glut of IT people out there, but there's also an overwhelming need for people who can not only deal with the technical aspect of support, but the human side of it, too. You can be the smartest tech in the world, but if you don't have the ability to work with people, regardless of how they are, you really won't get far. There may be a billion IT people in India, but they can't help Grandma Gladys or your neighbor down the street. Start small and let word-of-mouth sell your services.

As for the job descriptions you see, many are written by HR minions who have no concept of what a job truly entails. I've seen offerings of entry-level help desk (call center) positions paying $9 and hour and their first requirement was an MCSE! (Yeah, right!)

If you can get some certs, it doesn't hurt. A+, Net+...they show you're serious. A degree only shows you can stick with something and finish it. A lot of people who graduate from college or university still don't have a brain in their head, but they managed to accomplish something.

I like the idea of either working for something like an ISP or even volunteering for the opportunity to get that experience. Once you have some practical work time under your belt, you'll have that much more leverage to sell yourself to a potential employer.

Good luck!

Keep doing what you're doing. Gain experience. Build a personal website. Knock on doors and present yourself as someone who can get the job done.

Something I learned early on and that I recommend mentioning in an interview (if it is true of you) is this. I don't always know what the answer is, but I know how to find the answer. Being able to do that is a must in any level or area of IT.

-Scott

I was an ace in researching throughout school and I taught myself to type while I was in shcool. Now, I have no problems.

In 1998 when I purchase my first 233 Mhz PC, I did not know much and my wife was making the good money. Now, she has me doing all her research and I trouble-shoot her issues, so I know I have gained knowledge. I want to learn to build Websites on the side, but I would like to get into a Help Desk, Tier One position, so I can move into Networking.

K

First, I think Cindy's idea above about contacting a temp agency is a great idea. Many companies, including mine, use a temp agency to fill level 1 help desk positions. We do this because of the high turnover rate for these positions. Many of these level 1 temps are people like you that need to get their feet wet in the industry. The last guy we had was fresh out of college with a duel major in Comp Sci and Physics. He stayed with us for about 9 months until he found a permanent gig with PPG doing what he really wanted to do.

Concerning the experience, you may have more than you think. Look back at your previous jobs, hobbies, any volunteer work, things you do at home and so forth to pull any experience that may apply to a particular position. In my case, when I left the Navy after 9 years, my experience was in operating and maintaining submarine nuclear power plants. Not much demand for this in the civilian community . When I interviewed at my present company for a position supervising and operating a high speed coating operation, I made connections to my technical and management experience in the Navy. This got me the position.

Draw on your experience dealing with people and your ability to research effectively. Like someone else said, often it's more important to have the ability to research solutions. This is especially true in a field with rapidly changing technology such as ours.

One final suggestion, check out the book 'What Color is Your Parachute'. This is an excellent resource for career switchers and job seekers.

Good luck in your search!

Mark

Do some research on the companies you are interested in, call the switch board and ask for the name of the IT manager and his extension if possible.

Write the IT manager a short letter asking for 10 minutes of his/her time to discuss the industry (over the phone or face to face their choice) and how one can get started. State in your letter that you will not be asking for a job. Indicate when you will be calling.

You likely will not get any offers right away, but you will learn a lot and possibly get pointed to someone who is looking for someone.

Good Luck

Tom Walker

Toronto

Wow! I never thought of that. That is a good suggestion. Being a member of Tech Republic is sure helping with the ideas and keeping me in the loop.

Thanks Tom!

K

They want a person with 30 years experience but only want to pay entry level wages. One place I worked at a the 19 year old male got hired because he swayed his hips like woman and acted like fruitbasket to managment. But thats how it is working IT in a career technical center which is a public school. You have to suck their snot right through their rectums so hard! that their heads cave in and tickles their cerebral cortex's
You can be really educated and experienced but I am finding out I have to "sway my hips" if I want anything from IT managment in a public school setting.

I don't think 42 is that old for an IT person. From my experience its more to do with the economy than anything else.

The economy isn't in that great of shape and companies aren't willing to train someone fresh out of college. Where I live, most of the SE positions I see posted are 4-5+ years minimum. But I do think as the economy improves you will see companies willing to take people with less experience.

Don't give up looking. When I first graduated it took me 3 months to find something. It wasn't exactly the type of IT job I wanted but it did give me a foot in the door. Which I later used to get the position I wanted at the same company.

Thanks for the verbal support. I will continue to try.

Just about everyone I know who recently got jobs in IT (including myself) did so through networking--knowing someone at the target firm who put in a good word for them. It's a tough market, with jobs steadily being siphoned offshore and the economy not being especially strong right now. No one really needs to take a chance on a new college graduate, especially (sorry but it's true) one who is almost fifteen years older than the average college graduate and therefore is likely to be more outspoken and to demand more time with his family. I'd happily hire you because I'm twenty years older than you so I appreciate your maturity and I'm confident that I can handle you. (Sorry I'm not a hiring manager at the moment.) But how do you think the average 35-year-old manager is going to feel about you? My advice is to practice looking, talking, and acting ten years younger; that's what I've been doing for years. The person who's interviewing you can't easily learn your age through legal means.

Thanks for being upfront. Many people have said I only look between 28-30. So maybe I can pull that one off.

In my case I have substantially more age as well as "impressive" educational credentials that don't pay the bills.
My solution so far has been to leave the date of my degrees off the resume and get training in the latest technologies. I indicated that I am undergoing training in these latest areas and I got immediate responses, whereas before no one even acknowledged my resumes.
I look 10 to 15 years younger than I am, but based on your post, I think I will use Grecian Formula for those 5 grey hairs on my sideburns when I go for an interview . I might even leave off one graduate degree which appears to be non-IT-related -- even though I wanted to leverage that experience and knowledge.

When I left the Air Force in 1990, I created several resume, one with my 2-year degree and the others with all education (incl grad credits).

I ended up landing an "entry level" job (pay-wise) off the 2-year degree resume. They theory was to get my foot in the door....I had a job and gained valuable experience, but they were happy to keep me in that position while I was there.

Eventually I found a job that made use of my 4-year degree, but that took time (7 years!)

Unfortunately, most of the entry level positions in IT have gone offshore, or the way of the Dodo. It's really a tough job market out there, and I wish I could say it's going to get better, but, honestly I cant. I am not trying to discourage you, but, there are certain realities you will need to come to grip with regarding your employment opportunities.

So, what to do? Well, competition for the few job openings out there will be tough. I would suggest (as others have) that you start networking. Join users groups, etc. in your area and talk to some people. You might find some new friends who share your love of IT, and they might know someone with a job opening. Find places where you can volunteer your services (non-profits, etc.) and get some experience that way. Whatever you do, dont give up and dont stop learning. Setup a test lab in your home and tinker away. Get your hands on all the books you can and read away. Get some certifications (Microsoft, CompTIA, etc.) as this will help elevate you over other candidates. Scour all the newspaper and internet ads you can and get that resume out there.

Keep looking, keep trying and never give up. I bet you will find something eventually. Just be aware that it may take some time (then again, it could happen tomorrow...who knows?).

Thanks for the verbal support. I will keep at it. I have not heard anything back from an interview for IT Help Desk I went to on Friday, but at least I am learning the questions they ask.

If it's what you really want to do, keep learning and improving
your troubleshooting skills on a continual basis - all while
looking for that entry level job. A couple of years ago I changed
careers from being a professional musician (and an unrelated
undergrad degree) to a full-time IT guy. I had always been
well-versed in computers and could program a little C, but had
ZERO experience. I made cold calls, sent resumes, went to
dozens of interviews, and finally got that call for a temp position
at a small company to help install their first LAN. They had
three people in the IT department. I knew nothing about
networking, but learned quickly and worked hard. For me, if I
wasn't working, I was reading tech articles, books, creating
various scenarios in my home lab, writing code, etc...all to keep
up and improve my skills. Get involved in an Open Source
project - even if you aren't a programmer, you can still work on
documentation. And communication skills are crucial and can
separate you from the pack of applicants. Just keep your head
up and go for it.

Thanks plexislp,

I try, but my spouse is a negative force that works against me. She does not understand about IT, but claims to. She wants me to make a great income, but when she is home, she does not like it when I am on my PC. She gives me hell...in other words.

I know what I have to do, but have you ever had to deal with that type of negativity? It is rough on a individuals spirit.

K

systemgod, I feel sorry for your mis information. The jobs that are being off shored are only the low wage jobs primarly the contact centre or call centre jobs. I am from India, and am in a better position to answer this query that you have. The jobs as are the so called outsourced jobs are primarly for those who can work in night or odd hours, and as such its very difficult for any person to make such jobs as their "future" career jobs. I ask you, would you prefer doing a job that starts from 9:00 in the night and goes till 5:00 in the morning, and that too when the jobs are more of telecalling stuff not going to benefit freshers in the long run moreso ruining their careers. As regards software and IT, well its been always outsourced not to blame the recent times, primarily because of good IT manpower and IT centric population in this part of the world. The companies presenting slips to their employees happens all over the world and not in West, so don't blame outsourcing for this (not to mention the companies in this part of the world are more of "single project stay" companies who close their operations on the day before the last day of the month so as not to pay their employees with the month's pay leave aside pink slips!!).

I am sorry to hear that! That is why I am glad I am a citizen of the U.S.A.

I watched a documentry about "The hole in the wall project" in India. It is where they would set up a PC in very rural areas within a wall, but allowed users (the public) to access the mouse and keyboard. It was the children that were the most curious and started to play with it and never took long until they figured out how to surf the WWW.

The Indian people are very open to technology, but the way they treat people that work for companies, shows they have no integrity for their workers.

I am sorry friend!

K

I think if you re-read my post again you will notice that I never offered any reasons for why these jobs have disappeared or placed any "blame" on anything. However, since you chose to offer some points that are way off base, I feel compelled to point out some areas where you are the one dealing in misinformation.

These jobs I am speaking of are not just low paying or unskilled jobs for those who work odd hours (as you suggest). Companies such as Dell have moved almost all of their help desk/ support jobs overseas. Why was this done? Not because there are better quality IT workers in that part of the world (as you suggest), but because they can pay those workers less than half of what they would make here in the US. That's not conjecture or hyperbole, that's a fact. It's really all about the money, and has little or nothing to do with quality. You see, the language barrier between a tech at a call center in Bangalore and someone here in the states is enormous and it severely limits the effectiveness of that technician, no matter how good their skills are. Because we are in a highly competitive time, companies are doing all they can to cut costs in order to boost their bottom line. If they can reduce their labor costs in half by offshoring to Bangalore (or, anyplace else for that matter), they will do it in a heartbeat.

When you respond to posts like these in the future, it may help if you read them more closely before you add your comments. Also, you may want to be sure you have your facts straight too.

"most of the entry level positions in IT have gone offshore, or the way of the Dodo"
I think its you who has to re read your own post before blaming somebody else. I am not here to start another battle about offshoring but since you started it, I would request to go through the stats of the companies that have gone into offshoring as against those that didn't. Agreed that some compnies like DELL have outsourced much of their businesses but isn't it a wise move on their part to save money? What if they remain admant and keep paying large sums as wages to employees in their origin countries and then have to shut their operations altogether. Regarding your point that you made for the language of Banglore guys, I need to inform you once again that most operations that are carried out in South India are for email or keyboard processes. Most of the operations for voice are outsourced by companies to North India where the language is not a big problem and guys here know how to speak good english. I agree completely with you that its a competitive world and that, more strongly justifies me saying that the companies are doing right to outsource, I mean I would hold my stance even if Dell at a later date decides to shift operations to third world countries like Phillipines or even Namibia to cut costs. Systemsgod tell me if the operations and businesses would have been outsourced to your country from another country, would you have complained?

And for my friend BrainXpansion, I would say that you can find solace in the fact that just thinking that jobs being outsourced doesn't automatically mean that nobody is unemployed in offshored countries. My friend everybody has to go through the times that you are going and the Mettle of the man comes out only after patience. Take this time as an opportunity to hone up your skills. Take this time as not a phase of "Unemployment" but a time "In between employment". I think its hard times for everybody and trying hard and not losing hope is the mantra of the times.

If you re-read both posts once again you will see that I make no attempt to blame anyone for the current state of IT. You are the only one throwing those words around, not me.

I also think if you take the time to examine my original post closely that you will see I made no attempt to start some kind of debate about the merits (or folly) of offshoring. If you also take the time to read the original post for this topic ("Whatever happened to entry-level as I remembered it?"), you will see that the author is interested in an entry level help desk position. My statement that most of this type of job has been offshored (or, has went away completely) is accurate. I dont think that you actually dispute this fact, but, for some reason you choose to use it as a way to grind your ax about the merits of offshoring, and Indian nationalism.

I also made comments about how tight the IT field is, and I went on to add some (hopefully) helpful statements about job hunting for the author. This is really what this topic was for, and not a place to start a ridiculous flame war about offshoring. That sort of thing is best left to another discussion, and another time. If you feel like having this discussion in an appropriate forum, go for it. Otherwise, this discussion is over.

My apologies to BrainXpansion for responding to this tripe in his forum. If he is reading this, best wishes to you with your job search. I hope the suggestions I offered are helpful, and that you find work soon. Don?t give up!