Discussion on:

Whatever happened to entry-level as I remembered it?

Honestly, I am not teaching anybody anything. All I did was state the obvious about the decline of entry level jobs (there aren?t as many and most have moved offshore). I never once suggested that this was why anyone couldn?t find a job. So, read my original post once more, and you might see what's really there this time.

This is not the appropriate forum for your prattle and flames about offshoring, which is why I will not comment on that subject any further. This is a forum for people who wish to offer suggestions to the author who is looking at an entry level IT position.

Lastly, I can see that you would argue with a fencepost. What I don?t understand is why you won?t start your own discussion on the merits of offshoring, and why you insist upon having it out here (where it is so clearly off topic). My guess is that you lack the fortitude, or, more likely the grapes to do so.

Ok, I'll offer you a few reasons.

First, American business "leaders" haven't had a new idea for how to make a profit in years. They move from one C*O position to the next every couple of years with the same tired old "reduce employee expense" mantra, forgetting that "employee expense" is what keeps the rest of the economy moving. The whole of corporate America has no more strategic thinking than this coming Friday's "earnings guidance".

Not for one second would they consider moving to Bangalore, and taking their trophy wife and daughters with them, I might add.

(I would dearly love to be there to see the local populace react when some Britney-Spears-wannabe sashays her hip huggers down the average Hindu or Islamic street, but I digress.)

This is why the true innovation is done in the SMB space, by IT pros who have been kicked to the curb, or just plain abused, by the corporate IT hiring process. They know what people they need, they know how to find and hire them, and they don't need some HR gatekeeper/demi-god to get that task done.

I find it laughable that corporations delegate the most important task ... finding and retaining the best possible people ... to the department which can't find a better deal on health care, and can barely get the ID badges out in 3 weeks.

systemgod, I feel sorry for your mis information. The jobs that are being off shored are only the low wage jobs primarly the contact centre or call centre jobs. I am from India, and am in a better position to answer this query that you have. The jobs as are the so called outsourced jobs are primarly for those who can work in night or odd hours, and as such its very difficult for any person to make such jobs as their "future" career jobs. I ask you, would you prefer doing a job that starts from 9:00 in the night and goes till 5:00 in the morning, and that too when the jobs are more of telecalling stuff not going to benefit freshers in the long run moreso ruining their careers. As regards software and IT, well its been always outsourced not to blame the recent times, primarily because of good IT manpower and IT centric population in this part of the world. The companies presenting slips to their employees happens all over the world and not in West, so don't blame outsourcing for this (not to mention the companies in this part of the world are more of "single project stay" companies who close their operations on the day before the last day of the month so as not to pay their employees with the month's pay leave aside pink slips!!).

Being a past US couterpart to Concerned Earthling's position, I used to do customer support for a well known computer sales company. It is true that tech support and customer support is being outsourced overseas, but there are American outsourcers directly competing with the companies in India and China. Where I am located in the US is economically depressed, and IT has not taken the foothold it has in other parts of the country. The northern part of the state I live in has very few IT jobs, but many call centers for hire to various companies that need phone support. Call centers, of course have IT departments, but are staffed by three or four people to service facilities of 50 to 250 employees taking calls. Consider that half of the people answering phones are also qualified for entry level positions in the IT dept. Patience, perseverance, and imagination are the best ways to break into a field that is filling fast. Don't give up, jobs are out there, it's a matter of being at the right place at the right time.

Thanks Hermit!

Back in the mid-90's I clawed my way to an entry-level IT position without BS in Computer Science by working as the in-store Computer Tech at a Best Buy and in the tech support phone queues for AT&T Internet Service....the whole time reading as much about Netware as possible. That gave me enough "experience" to get a help desk position at a small oil & gas firm.
Your best bet is a small company 1000 employees. Too many of those companies have one "IT Guy" that does it all and need a helpdesk person.

I was just at an interview for IT Help Desk on Friday, and that is exactly what they were doing. I had three guys interview me at once, not the manager. They were in the market for a Tier 1 support person, so the other two could move to Tier 2. I have not heard anything back, but I am bugging them.

I too, worked four long years in order to obtain my Bachelor of Science degree in (IT) Information Technology, while I work full time. And yes, when those ads in the newspaper state entry-level, they want more than entry level, they ask for 3-5 years experience.

The example you posted was exactly like I had a couple of times. I had the answer to the fixes but my situation was, They were looking for someone that was certified in any of the microsoft discipline. I am now but I cant find anything now.

your damn if u do and your damn if ur not. and I 40 years old...

I know if I keep trying and learning at the same time, something will come my way. Yea right!!

I am working P/T for a start-up, but it is not IT. Can you believe Marketing of all things. I am utilizing my resources just like we learned in school. Basically, that is all what school was...being on your own.

I graduated from college with my IT degree in May 1992. I didn't get my first IT job until April 1994. I plastered my walls with rejection slips. The company that finally hired me as a programmer hired me because they wrote financial software and I had worked in a brokerage firm for two years while in college. The combination of my tech and none tech skills won the position. Can you find any connection between your new goals and your former career(s?. If you worked in health care try to get a job in the IT dept. of a health care organization. Worked retail? Look for a job in the IT dept. of a retail organization. Just keep trying. Don't let your wife discourage you. What does she know about what IT Managers in corporate america are looking for?

I feel a lot of negativity comes from my wife because she did not go to college and she had this"dream" that I was going to be making 70k right off the bat. She hastles me everytime I get on my computer. She does not understand what IT professionals have to do. I tell her life long learning, and she thinks it is an excuse just to be on the computer. I have to become stronger and to not let her be a "dream stealer."

You may have hit the nail on the head here. It doesn't matter if you want a careeer in IT, novel writing, painting, corporate management ... you simply have to quit listening to naysayers, even if it means advising them that it is a drain on your efforts to have to listen to their constant gratuitous (and worthless) "advice".

My wife is convinced that I really need the benefit of her opinion when I am between contracts, and really hates being told "shut your piehole". She also is starting to realize that there are non-verbal clues that her negativity is unwanted, so she doesn't have to hear it. Takes time.

But do ignore the naysayers. I'm sure that J. K. Rowling had her share of "just some advice" to ignore unprocessed before her first book was published.

The dynamics of a marriage have baffled and doomed many people. Her scenario of IT pros quickly getting fabulous salaries was true 35-40 years ago when you had to have the IQ of a nuclear physicist to make anything work in the programming languages of the era, and there was a colossal push to automate absolutely everything for the first time. IT hasn't been like that for a long time, and it has so NOT been like that for about fifteen years now, if you recognize the dot.com flim-flam for what it was.

My wife has an English degree, raises dogs, and has never been involved with IT from a career standpoint, yet she also spends a good portion of her day on the computer. As do almost all of the non-IT people I know of all ages. How can your wife live without it? Whether you're working, playing, learning, gossiping, or looking at pictures of grandchildren, that's where the world is today.

I suspect your missus is living in the past in a number of ways judging from what you've said. Perhaps that includes expecting you to be the hero who brings home the rhinoceros meat while she gathers the herbs with which to cook it. There's nothing wrong with that lifestyle--if it works. If it doesn't, having one partner who didn't get the memo announcing the end of the dot.com era (much less the entire Industrial Era) will make for a real disaster.

You've got a tremendous advantage because you seem to understand this stuff. Your (other) job is to figure out how to impart that understanding to your wife so you're both in this together.

Good luck!

I also have a wife who does not agree with the lifestyle that IT professions sometimes require. For example, I have had to call her several times and tell her I will not be home tonight until I get a server restored and back up... once on our anniversary. Only a wife who is also in IT with some perceived responsibilities will understand that. Jobs such as travelling field service with overnight stays, etc will definitely strain a marriage. 42 is not too old for an IT job.. there are several of us here (including some recent hires) who are older than that, and there are times the younger "generation" of IT people come to us for answers... successfully.

Take that as a warning sign from your wife. I know i did. There is the term 'computer widow', for some of my tech friends, out of 9 males, only 2 have long term partners, me being one of them. I recomend that you gift her with her own PC if u can, something that is atractive to a female, like a colorful laptop, something stylish. then you tie it in with her interests, and show her how to use it. It can become common ground. Traditionally im not a "geek" and when i did go geek, and started spending hours on the computer, my relationship suffered, however once my partner who is a very active person, got involved in building them from the case up, and with assistance built her own high end game machine (more powerful than mine at the time), complete with enough colored lighting, fans, and reactive UV paint for a main street(one of her interests is art), and proceeded to get involved in LAN parties, and gaming others, she even went back to TAFE and did a 6 month course on hardware and basic software. Now she is skilled in computer repairs, reinstalls, and can snipe the best of us in lan games, all this and her original skill base. It opened up a new world for her, and now we have 6 pc's between us. I.T. can bring people together, rather than being a source or friction, besides sometimes its fun to both go to a chat rooms and talk, when your in the same room at home. Give it a try. no one really likes to be left out of things with those they love.

Fuzz

Right now, I am unemployed because I just relocated to this state. I did my research and found a large percentage of the population did not have degrees, so I "assumed" this would be a better opportunity for mua. Well, come to find out, it seems as if they shun others with degrees because there are managers and supervisors without degrees in this state. I do not want to take anyones job. I just want to work and learn.

As for the Ol'Lady, she already has a Sony notebook and I have a desktop and a notebook,plus I installed my wireless network. Ok, it is not networked, but we can connect via PCMCIA cards. The funny thing is that she does not like to bother with finding things and registering on Websites of interest, so I do it. I look at it as more education.

K

I have that problem from time to time with my husband. He means well, but doesn't always understand the IT process and problems that come up with it.

I didn't start out with much pay and was hourly and worked about 30 hours a week.

Once you get the experience in, you can get the higher paying positions. It depends upon what you want to go for. There are also several sides to IT - software, hardware, security, infrastructure, db-oriented positions, etc.

It is also true that smaller companies often can pay a higher salary than larger companies with many on the payroll.

I haven't looked back myself. The technology is constantly changing as new gadgets come out and people become more mobile.

You need to be on the computer looking, gaining knowledge, keeping all options open.

There are two things here: first, don't be discouraged by the questions. I often ask those types of questions to find out whether the person I am dealing with is honest in what they do and don't know. The appropriate answer would be "I don't have an answer off the top of my head, but give me a computer and a phone, and I could have an answer in xxx amount of time." I am looking for the person who knows they don't know everything, but is willing to admit it AND find out the answer. That's crucial in my team. Also, to increase experience I recommend volunteering. Even a couple of hours a week or a month could help - I worked in a museum and we were desperate for anyone who knew anything about IT. I have also supported a homeless shelter in configuring their firewall. Oftentimes, they are willing to work alongside your schedule - the downside being they seldom have the latest and greatest unless a benefactor has supplied it.

kgoesele

Have you tried local, state, or federal government for work? I am currently working for a federal government agency as an IT specialist. I started in the IT field in 1998 as a computer assistant and progressively worked my way up. I don't have a degree (of any kind) and don't have any certifications. Although I am slowly working towards an AAS in IT and half way towards my A+. I showed an aptitude to learn and was given the opportunity.

mclayton
I'm always the first to admit that I don't know everything, but I do know how to find a solution, be it with my peers, colleagues, vendor tech support and of course my favorite - Google.

Just hang in there kgoesele. By the way, here's a link you may find helpful http://usajobs.opm.gov. You can narrow your search to specific job category to specific locations across the country. Good luck and I commend you for attaining your goal of a degree in IT! Maybe some day I can at least attain mine of an AAS (possibly a BS).

Do not be put off by the 3-5 years experience listed in the newspapers. Employers often state high expectations, but then reality hits and they accept less. Send in a resume, it doesn't cost much and the company may also have some unadvertised entry-level positions as well.

Don't restrict yourself to just searching the newspaper ads. Try www.monster.com and www.dice.com. They do not cost you anything. You may also want to look at using an employment agency ("headhunter"). You can usually find a couple listed with the rest of the want ads.

Finally, don't get frustrated by the questions in an interview. The purpose of the interview is to guage your level of knowledge and the interviewers will ask both questions you know the answer to and ones that you do not. Prior to the interview, think of a good generic answer on how you would identify the answer to a question you do not know. Then you could answer with "Good question. I do not know the answer to that one, but if it came up then I would do the following ..."

There are entry-level positions out there and do not be put off by high expectations. Get your resume in front of people and then you can use the interview to convince them that you can learn to do the job.

I made the same mistake, tried to get into IT late in life (45). I should have stuck it out in the paralegal trade or sold insurance. Opened a coffee shop. ANYTHING except a field obsessed with youth and 10 Rupee an hour offshore labor.

They don't know you, so they don't trust you. Find an IT recruiting company through your friends who are already in the industry. Actually, find more than one, because each company will have its "stable" of good accounts that they have a really good relationship with and that trusts them. If that recruiting firm says to a client you are a good "risk", then you are much more likely to get the interview and the job. Also, if the recruiter/hiring company relationship is good, then the recruiter can coach you on what kinds of things they are looking for. This helps immensely. The reason I say to find more than one recruiting firm is that each one will have only a certain number of accounts that they really have great relationships with, and you are right, there are limited placements out there for people with no real industry experience. You need to increase your odds, because once each firm gets your resume they will compare you to what requisitions are on their desk. If nothing fits you yet, they will file your resume. Here is where it helps if you really sell yourself to the IT recruiting firm (representative) and don't just take them for granted. If they really think you are capable of great things if given the opportunity, they will keep you in mind as job orders come through. This only happens if they have a lot of confidence in you. Smaller firms are more likely to do this for you, because it is a much more personal relationship. Remember, if a firm places you and you don't work out, they could lose a client....and a lot of money, potentially. They are very motivated to put good people at their companies in order to foster the relationship. That is why you need to give them confidence that you are good at taking direction, a team player, and will constantly strive to improve your skills. Having said that, get a recruiter that recruits in IT and knows IT. Otherwise, you will be put up for jobs that are not suited to you, and you don't want. You won't stay long, and everybody loses. - Good luck.

-yipp

This is the most comprehensive advice I have seen. I know this to be true because I did this exact path for 9 years. This built a very comprehensive resume, which gets noticed. Be careful of the positions you receive from some of the agencies. The longer-term (3mos +) position reaps the best benefit this way you build your resume with great experience. After about two or three years of this, you should have the experience of receiving the offers you are looking for. Also keep in mind that many of the long-term assignments may go temporary to perm. This is also a good way of you checking out the employer and the employer checking you out too.

I landed my first gig as an IT person, it was just dumb luck. But being a person who is over 40 is not a bad thing at all! You will have to start at the contractor level, because if you schooling will not land you a job. You will have to get training, and the best way is contracting or do free lance. But get a few jobs under your belt. And be sure to learn and remember what you picked up. I am 46 now and I work with 19 to 30 year olds, but with my life experenices and helping others I find that I am asked for more then the guys who fix things faster. And I still type with two fingers.) The contract that I am now on will be contract to hire, and the company has already said they want me to be hired and the younger person who is my second is still being thought about. Let me know if I can help you in any way? I am a big fan of any one who wants to get into the IT field, I do not like out sourcing or letting any of or jobs leave the US.

Make sure you have an answer to the interviewer's question. When I interview I don't want to hear, "I don't know". If you don't know the answer tell me how you would go about finding the answer. No intelligent manager expects you to know everything off the top of your head, we don't either. But you have to know where to look and how to find it. Good luck.

You wrote: "When I interview I don't want to hear, "I don't know"."

IMHO, this might be one the problems facing IT today. I prefer people telling me "I don't know" instead of a lots of blablabla that just shows that "you don't know and you are incompetent as well".

Person answering a question honestly "I don't know" (obviously there are things that person answers also honestly "I do know") has more chance to get an IT job in my world.

The key aspect of hiring someone for entry level position is being able to establish whether a person in question has a capability to learn and grow and fullfill the position he/she is solicitating for. (todays experts did not grew on trees)

The problem however is that in current economic situation companies are forced to "save". That results in problems person in question is facing.

The correct answer from my experience is DON'T GIVE UP. Sollicitate, and keep on solliciting until you find yourself at an interview where they understand where you are coming from and where you want to go. Usually this results in best job out there for you as it will permit you to grow from the day one.

Secondly you've got science degree in IT. Permit me to add the remark: "Stop whining and show what you have learned" in other words you might not have right hands-on experience -- apply the theory you have learned.

Remember: "No one got ever fired for picking IBM"

I admire your perseverance: don't quit yet!! Have you given thought to a Temp Service or an LTE position? My place of work often hires people who have worked here on that basis. It gives them an advantage in many ways: they hear of a job before its posted externally, they have a distinct advantage during the interview and a they have a chance to scope out what the work environment is like.

I speak from an Australian perspective, but would have to say I didn't find your problem rang true from my recent experience. We have recently hired a graduate "newbie", and this person is not the first. There are some roles that require previous experience (network engineers, administrators, etc.) and some that actually benefit from somebody "newer" who isn't too far developed down one particular avenue.

For example, first level support is a great place for new players to get to know the business and gain experience without needing great levels of detailed knowledge. Another example is an IT junior who does some of the "grunt" IT work that (without sounding condescending) is lower skilled and lower priority than the experienced IT professionals have time to do... but it still needs doing. Managing file shares, backups, web content management, documentation, training, things like that. A third example might be something more along the lines of a project coordinator, particularly if you have transferrable skills from another area. In this case, your time management and people skills are more important than technical experience. The latter you will build as you go. Age, if it comes with maturity, reliability and common sense, is possibly an advantage.

The current state of the industry, if anything, is a shortage of skills. Graduate numbers are on the decline as IT becomes commoditised.

My advice? Focus on your skills, choose your positions carefully and select for growth potential, not for immediate placement. And good luck.

Nick.

I address this precise issue in a chapter of my book, The IT Career Builder's Toolkit (Cisco Press).

It is titled, Breaking into IT: The Entry-level Dilemma

TechRepublic has it as a download right here:
http://techrepublic.com.com/5138-6240-5594538.html?tag=search

In short, THE HELP DESK IS NOT A GOOD PLACE TO BREAK INTO IT!!!!!

Personally, I would start with a less centralized type of organization - a small company 40-200 employees - in a non-IT role. Take existing skills if possible and then help them with their technology.

Create a strong peer network for throwing questions at (and also providing answers as your knowledge grows) and get the much desired experience without the title.

The career path that says: IT degree/cert - help desk - level 2 help desk - network support - level 2 network support - network admin - network engineer, etc.

Or a similar path for programming is largely mythical and TAKES TOO LONG plus it does not expose you to many aspects of technology in a business context.

If you must work for a larger company, work in a user department and help them in a localized sense with their technology. Make their existing technology automate key user tasks and you will be valuable beyond measure. You will work hand in hand with the people using your solutions and will gain exposure with management.

It is better than being hidden behind a headset and a computer terminal.

Hope this helps.

I would say I agree 100% with Mr. Moran.. I AM a hiring manager and what I would do (if I were you) is to draw as many paralles between old job and new position. For example if you used to be a plumber, you could draw upon the following in an interview.(Keep in mind these may seem like a strech at first, but people constantly undervalue themselves). So you were a plumber so you were used to working against deadlines, you were involved in projects of all sizes and held multiple project roles (i.e you designed the system, installed it, repaired it, maintained it etc)In addition you have years or direct customer support experience, etc... If you are looking at a help desk, (again not the best place to start) customer service and personality are much more important than a strict skill set.
Keep at it, it can be daunting but I would absolutley exploit my age and not try to hide it, while you may lack the hands on in terms of tech you have most other candidates beat in real world work experience.

I work in a non related field as my main position, but I am responsible for interviewing and hiring. I generally look for people with less related experience and more positive life experience. As far as IT, I have been running my own tech service for 4 years now on a part time basis. It is very difficult to convince someone that doesn't know you that you are capable of repairing their system. I did some small jobs for people in their homes and ended up getting bigger and better calls from them regarding their business computers. I am in my early thirties, but I have no degree, no certifications. I use my management skills from the food service industry to be my own boss and convince prospective clients to take a risk with me. Good luck and don't give up.

I posted another response tittled Apply for Non-IT Job Related to IT, but I just read this post. This guy is right, I think I'm gonna get his book.

The helpdesk is not the best place to be! Sure you'll get really good at fixing simple PC problems, but you'll have no real experiencing when it comes to meat and potatoes of IT. In fact, our help desk was just outsourced so stability for that position is always there.

Working for the client community first is an excellent way to get that "entry level" experience

I would advise you to consider working for the Government, either directly or through a Contractor. The jobs are there, especially on the Federal level, as the Baby Boomers start to retire. Also, I have found Government IT to be more accepting of older workers.

...when I was straight out of Uni, aged 22, with a Masters.

Stick with it. Keep learning - it improves your qualification and looks good. And if you can't talk to your peers - well, find some. Open source projects, social networks, newsgroups - they're all ways to talk to other techies!

Remember, the adds are a wish-list. I might wish I was going out with Sandra Bullock, but I'd accept the cute girl next door. Companies are the same about jobs.

Don't be surprised by the pay scale. Lot's of places looking for Enterprise service at Mom'n'Pop pay.

Take this time to build an application in the technology of your choice. The leading 'shops' are (not in any order, however I'm a .net guy, so I can't offer 'other' solutions):

1. Microsoft .Net (VB.Net, C# (pronounced 'C Sharp') for winforms or ASP.Net along with Microsoft SQL Server (my bias...) and web services.
2. Java, web services, Oracle
3. Embedded applications (phone, pda software/drivers. Google for 'Symbian')

It wouldn't hurt to also know Access, because most companies are still building applications and reporting with it. However, the top 2 are most popular. Build an N-Tier application:
1. user interface as either a windows forms app or web-based. Web-based is most popular now.

2. DAL (Data Access Layer). This is where all the database I/O and transaction process will occur and is usually compiled as a dynamic link library (Microsoft) or maybe a 'bean' (java).

3. Stored procedures. Pre-built queries that exist in the database server that the DAL calls. So, you'll need to know SQL (Structured Query Language) fairly well.Application:

1. Build a database driven login (to a tblUsers table). It wouldn't hurt to figure out encrypting the password. In .net you'd use the DPAPI.

2. Build a Main screen with a menu offering user features. I'd use the Northwind Database.

3. Build forms to do data entry and retrieval.


Software:
Microsoft offers Visual Web Developer Express (2005) (msdn.Microsoft.Com ) which is still beta 2 and 'FREE'. Or Web Matrix (www.asp.net) for building web driven apps (ASP.Net). You'll need to know a .Net language. VB.Net and C# are the fore-running languages. C# gets more $$ in the market place right now. Both are very similar capability languages so choosing either dosen't make a difference. Although, VB.Net is a friendlier language and a little easier to learn. Things like case-sensativity and the IDE (Integrated Development Environment) is more friendly than C#.

Visual Studio.Net 2005(beta 2) is still available for download but may time out. I'd also consider this. You can build the 'dll' for data IO.


If you choose Microsoft, you can download MSDE (MicroSoft Desktop Engine). See: www.Microsoft.Com/SQL and follow the links for MSDE. make sure you install the most recent service pack due to viruses.
It IS SQL Server for the most part but has no user interface. Install is tricky though. (NOTE: make sure you set DISABLENETWORKPROTOCOLS=0 switch in the setup command.) You can also download the script for the Northwind database.

Use these tools, build an app, and take a laptop with you to the interview. Do a show-n-tell. This is a MUCH stronger sell to the interview. The rest will be your perceived comfort and how you'll fit in their organization.

I did this technique and it worked.

Good luck and keep plugging.

In my current position one of my many duties is maintaining an Access database. I wrote most of the SQL queries through scratch and designed many user-friendly forms. I am currently building a Visual Basic search box that I will test with my local department (whom have Access phobia).

Your advice gave me inspiration to show this skill to potential interviewers. I like to take this type of search, integrate into a webpage, and have it search a local database. I assume ASP is this the way to do this?

Wow!
I've been looking for work and didn't even seriously apply for IT and programming jobs, even though I have the background, since I didn't think I had a chance. I tried Admin Assistant- with-PC-skill type jobs. My resume spoke of my IT background which includes an MS in Information Systems from a top notch Graduate Business School, as well as another graduate degree, recent college level training in computer science, including courses in C++, VB and SQL. Oh, and I was a computer programmer many years ago -- before I moved on educationally and career wise to supposed higher level fields.

Didn't get so much as an acknowledgement to my resumes and cover letters.

I also targeted software companies that sought IT backgrounds, but not specifically programming jobs, but which indicated entry level openings.

NOT A BITE! I never even got an acknowledgement that my resume was received.

My age, reflected on the graduation dates on my resume, was the problem.

I then decided to go straight for database jobs, as databases are central. I decided to stay away, for now, from the Oracle and Unix world although I live in NYC and that seems a natural for Wall Street jobs.

I was able to secure a grant for training toward obtaining MCDBA certs, but had to change the grant when the proprietary school kind of disintegrated. That led me to what I wanted all the time. I have started classes for MCDBA, VB.NET, C#.NET, the whole .NET platform.

To obtain the grant I had to show there was a market, so I sent a resume including the fact that I am training for VB.NET and C#.NET. WHAT A DIFFERENCE! I got hits overnite. Although I didn't get interviews, --I am not ready yet -- it was gratifying that an interest was shown. So you are right, .net guy. I will follow your advice. Thank you!