Discussion on:

Geek Trivia: Me, myself, and Ides

I'm also a former English major, and I was delighted to see a sentence like

>> "A soothsayer spoke the line, warning Caesar that tragedy awaited on this date and cluing the titular character in (albeit obliquely) to the murderous conspiracy to which the audience is openly privy."

I like the more tech-oriented Geek Trivia newsletters, but this was a nice change. If you want a slightly techie experience with Shakespeare, you can go to opensource-shakespeare at

http://www.opensourceshakespeare.org/

Hey well
I'm a friendly stranger in a black sedan

You wrote: >>the Romans counted inclusively. The phrase ante diem V Ides Martius would mean literally the fifth day before the Ides of March. However, instead of denoting March 10, it would mean March 11, because the five-day count included the Ides. Confused yet?

We do this now. Back in the mists of time in my youth, if someone was described as being "second from the left", in a picture, I would count the third person in on the grounds that the first person would be "on the left", next would be "first from left", etc. This seemed to be consistent with what I saw in the picture (if I recognized people, or there was a mix of men and wmeon, for example). Usage now seems to be the second person in. Which, to me, makes no sense, but you often see people described as "second from the left" in a group of four.

When did this change?

You say,"Thus just as IV would mean one before five, (or four)". This implies the Roman use of the letter V. Not so! The Romans would write five as, IIIII, and nine as, IIIIIIIII.The V was a seventeenth century invention. Since clocks, (and clock faces), were being introduced around this time, it was probably a space saving convention.

creyes53, you have things a little mixed up I believe. The oldest surviving clock face in Wells Cathedral in Somerset dates from the 14th century. It is a 24 hour clock and uses I II III IIII V VI VII VIII IX X XI and red starts denoting midnight and noon. As you can see, in the 14th century they did use IIII in place of IV.

Here is a link to a description of the clock, which in turn has a link to a (rather small) picture.

http://www.web40571.clarahost.co.uk/roman/clockface.htm

You'll have to click the picture on the page for the full size

You'll have to click the picture on the page for the full size

http://homepage.mac.com/pete.boardman/24hourclock/history.html

You were an English major? As the son of a high school English teacher and a former jornalism major, I am shocked that you would say "a" historical event, rather than "an" historical event. I know it's a common mistake, but English majors should know better.

Most book and magazine editors adhere to the Chicago Manual of Style (15th ed.), which calls for "a" with "historical" and gives the example "a historical society." But Webster's 11th ed. allows both "a historic" and "an historic." Most editors don't go by Webster's because they view it as too loose with the rules. Having been a professional editor for 20 years (and having authored several style manuals), I find Webster's to be just fine as a guide, but for formal publishing I would stick to the Chicago Manual. The Trivia Geek in this case is correct either way, with "a historical event."

I guess that's one less pet peeve. Thanks!

That's very good to hear! Using "an" with words like "historic" has always gone against my grain for some reason. I've refused to write sentences that way, even though I thought that was technically correct.

I also refuse to write phrases such as "the data are in" and instead write "the data is in". I know that the word "data" is plural and that "datum" is singular, but writing the phrase correctly just doesn't sound right. In fact to me, it even sounds pretentious somehow when "data" is used as a plural term. And "data" seems to be synonymous with the word "information", which is a singular term.

Is anyone else "rubbed the wrong way" by this word, or should I seek psychiatric help????

Larry :o)

"Data" is a mass noun correctly treated as singular (Chicago Manual of Style 15th); and is an abstract mass noun equivalent to the singular noun "information" (Webster's 11th).

You are DA MAN! I'm so happy to hear I can use the word "data" as a singular noun. I guess I'm not the wildman verbal rebel I thought I was!

And you just saved me a bundle on psych visits - Thanks!

Larry :o)

The data collection is (has) finished. We have finished collecting the data. We have recieved the data.

Then I can go back to my grade school grammar teacher and tell her she was wrong all those years by teaching us that "words starting in vowels use 'a' and all others use 'an'" or something like that? JOY!
Not being able to include grammar as one of my strong points in school, maybe it gives me a sort of mulligan for all those poor grades?

While Julius Caesar was killed Ides of March back in 44 BC; the true anniversary date for the assassination would be March 14th today.

From Answers.com (see http://www.answers.com/topic/ides-of-march)
"In the Roman calendar the ides of March fell on the 15th day of the Roman month of Martius (although it should be noted that this would correspond to March 14 today, due to differences in the way that the months were calculated). The Ides was an auspicious day in the Roman calendar, falling on the 15th of March, May, July and October and on the 13th of the other months."

Looking further:

(link http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Roman+calendar&curtab=2222_1&linktext=Roman%20calendar)

"Finding the Julian equivalent of a Roman date can be quite tricky. Even early Julian dates, before the leap year cycle was stabilised, are not quite what they appear to be. For example, it is well known that Julius Caesar was assassinated on the Ides of March in 44 BC, and this is usually converted to 15 March 44 BC. While he was indeed assassinated on the 15th day of the Roman month Martius, the equivalent date on the modern Julian calendar is probably 14 March 44 BC."

If I do, that will change everything by about 13 days.

To make the count even more confusing, the ides fell on the 15th in March May, July, and October, but on the 13th day in all other months.

The other two specifically named days in the Roman
calendar, as I remember, were the Nones and the Kalens.
The Nones were near the beginning of the month, the
actual day varied depending on the length of the month.
the Kalens marked the end of the month.

I believe from my college classes that the correct answer would be Kalends and Nones.