Discussion on:

The salary issue... how to approach it?

I'm having a problem that I hope I can get some advice with.. I'm planning on relocating soon and I've been interviewing with a company in the state I'll be moving to for a position as an Applications Developer (working with ASP.NET, C# and SQL Server); they haven't made me an offer yet but I've had three phone interviews and flew in for an on-site interview, so chances seem pretty good. They might offer me the job by the end of the week.

They wanted a salary history in my cover letter, and as I'm used to companies that offer much less than what's average where I live now, I said I was negotiable but looking for something around $35,000/year (which is still a good deal more than I am making at my current job). I have two years experience with ASP.NET and web design/development, and with some of the reasearch I did it seems like the average salary for what I would be doing is closer to 45-50K a year, so it looks like I sold myself short for fear of pricing myself out of the job (as I said, I'm used to companies that will offer barely anything no matter your experience, so to me $35k/year is a lot, but then again I've only worked for small businesses and this is a very large company).

Basically I'm asking how do I approach this.. if they make me an offer and ask me what I'd want as a salary, is it "right" to jack up the amount when I essentially said I would take something lower in the cover letter (although I *did* say negotiable)? And if so, how much do I up it by? I'm not greedy.. I could live on the 35k but I also don't want to screw myself either way by taking too low an offer since I *am* going to be moving to another state after all, and if I price myself too low I'll never be seeing much in the way of a raise, but I also don't want to shoot myself by asking for too much and losing the offer. So how do I approach this situation?

Geography plays a big part in salary. Consider, for example, a position for 45K that would be wonderful in one location might be a starvation wage elsewhere. Personally I increase the dollar amount in relation to the distance from home and also take into account city taxes, which are common around New York City and Philadelphia. Since you will be relocating, this should provide an opening for bringing up the need for additional dollars.

Its always easier to be honest.

I would suggest that you do the research on the cost of living, and if it appears like its more than you thought, adjust your requirements accordingly.

In my company, you are put into salary bands with minimums and maximums. If you start at the bottom of the band, you are more likely to get a bigger raise than if you are at the top of the band. So your theory isn't necessarily so.

I too started at the bottom of my pay scale for my job, but over time, I catch up. When I am paid more than average for the job, I either get smaller raises, or a promotion (and the cycle starts again).

James

Believe me, I know from personal experience, but mine worked out for the better. I can't tell you how many times I hear of people relocating to work for a new employer, only to be hung out to dry within a few months to a year because they were terminated shortly thereafter. It's your choice, but unless you have other options, I'd be very carefull if I were you.

I'll be careful.. the relocation is something I plan on doing anyways.. my girlfriend lives there and we are expecting our first child soon (next month, actually), so I want to relocate, and obviously need to find employment.

Read my resume and call my references, but I will not sign my own death warrant by letting them know what I was making if I am looking for a significant pay increase. If they really need to know, I'll provide them with pay stubs, but giving them a printed list only serves as ammunition for their HR dept to lawball you when it comes to negotiating pay. If they won't have it any other way, I tell them where they can stick their job and move on to someone else that doesn't need a blood, urine, and DNA sample from me for a damned job. If my resume, experience, and refernces aren't enough information for them to determine what I am worth and respect my market value, then they can all go to hell for all I care. For every cheap ass employer looking to lowball, there are hundreds who will pay well above market for quality talent.

Since Columbus, Ohio has been so far below market wages for decades now, I include the following at the top of any salary history I am forced to provide:

Salary history should not be taken as an indication of acceptable compensation for positions under consideration in .

Since only an idiot does not understand that a request for salary history is only so that HR can find a down-trodden sheep to low-ball.

What you have made in the past really should be of no consequence to your future employer. If you made $35k at your last job, the company feels that they're doing you a great service by offering you $40k. 5-Grand a year is a small raise no matter what they say. It works out to approximately a $2.30 per hour raise and even less after taxes.

Companies that offer "competitive salaries" really don't. They compete just enough to be higher than your last job.

As for whether or not it is right to ask for more after stating in your cover letter what you might accept, hope that they ask you what you would "like" to make before the offer is made. And next time, you might want to put a clause in your cover letter stating what you want, and that you would consider taking less but that it would depend upon the job and it's requirements.

Just an idea or two for you.

Tim

In order to negotiate a "fair" salary, you need to do some research on the "fair market value" of the position with the years of experience you have for the size of company, in that particular city. Never hard quote a fix amount as it would be unfair to you or to the company. I've always put down, if required, the market rate for the position. You certainly don't want to overbid nor underbid as it doesn't do justice for you or the company. Let them make an offer. But be sure to ask for a "fair market" rate.

I'm a true believer that you should always negotiate the best rate for yourself up-front. Waiting for an increase or promotion can be based on too many unknown variables. If you do an excellent job, they wouldn't mind to pay you well. But on the other hand, if the candidate is incompetent, it doesn't matter how low he's paid, he would be on the let-go list! Good luck!

This is the best of the replies and I agree with it. Having been on both sides of this converstaion, his approach is the most honest and defensible, even if you've provided too low of a target salary already. "Fair Market Value" for the job at the location had best be an acceptable proposal to your prospective employer. Of course, he'll knock off a bunch because of your initial low salary statement, but then you have several negotiating numbers for discussion. In the end, you will have to decide if it is worth it just to get in the area with your loved ones. It is easier to hunt for another job once you're there and employeed if you don't like what you end up with.

Asking the candidate for his/her salary requirements early in the game is an unfair question. After years of dealing with this I learned from headhunters that it's best to find a polite and appropriate way to duck or postpone the $$ question.

The goal during the interview process is to determine if you both want to build a relationship together, i.e., they love you and you love them. Talking about money before that happens is premature and a distraction. Your goal as this point is to get an offer.

If you are asked $$ questions try to deflect it. Ask, "Does that mean you are prepared to make me an offer?"

You may supply your salary history with whatever qualifying info such as, "I'm currently earning $50,000 and am due for a $5,000 increase in two months."

If the job responsibilities are greater than what you are doing that has to factored into the final offer as well and should be discussed later.

Be politely direct but don't allow yourself to be treated like a victim or your future boss may think you are weak. This is a business negotiation and should be treated as such.

If pressed, offer an explanation along the lines of, "I would very much like to work for XYZ Company and know I can do a great job. I'm sure you will make me a fair offer." Then be quiet.

Once again, your goal is to make them want you based on qualitative issues. Once they have committed to hiring you, then that is the best and only chance you have to negotiate your salary which is another topic.

Remember, whoever says a number first loses. Once you say, "I was looking for a range between xx and yy" you've just committed to xx. If you say, "I was hoping for at least zz" you will be offerred zz even if they were willing to pay 50% more than zz.

It never hurts to portray yourself as a good negotiator. That will earn you respect and may increase your potential value to your future employer.

It makes sense to me that you should research what the job market will bear in the area that you are going. Consider that two years of experience in "any" field is sort of entry level, but that should not hinder you from asking for what you are worth. Some questions that may help you:

I good a developer are you?
What types of projects have you been involved with?
Can you perform as a project lead?
How would you feel know that everyone you work with makes more than you?
How do you feel about asking for raises?

Here is one idea you might think with. Think with me- these folks put there shoes on just like you and I do- one at a time. Sure, most corp exec want alot for a little- generally- not all are this miserly.

What I would do at the hiring interview, is say the following : Here is an idea which might meet both our objectives".. pause-look man in his eyes- then say- "Since I am a newcomer to your organization, and regardless of the info contained on my resume, I am an unknown entity to you, and what you need ( I hope you have done some intelligence gathering before all this because in order to pull all this off, you'd better know what their problems are- after all- you are to them, a potential problem solver). At this point you pull out your portfolio of some of the problems you have solved, documented by your past job leaders, and go over some salient points that the 'man' in front of you can relate to.

Then you say- "What would you feel is a decent starting salary, and providing I solve some bottlenecks you currently have (they all do), we could see what some growth would look like at that point" then shut up- the next person who speaks loses.

Remember, we are always selling something to someone- there are many ways to sell- listen to what people tell you- and you'll always know the truth.

William Pickett
Albuquerque NM
2006 Balloon Fiesta Sponsor

This is always a tricky problem, and goes a lot further than what you immediately identified. If you accept an offer that you feel is a little low, then you are ultimately going to be unhappy as you feel you could have gotten a better salary, and will probably start looking. On the other side, they should know what the market is dictating, and should make an offer related to that. What I would suggest, if they offer you something that is around the $35K you suggested, and ultimately you want $45K, suggest to them that you would be happy to start at $35K with a review after 3 months with a $5K increase if they are happy, and again at 6 months. That way you will get to where you want to be, and they will be able to give you merit related increases.

These are just my thoughts, hope that they help.

Good luck!!

Some damned good advise seen here on how to deal with this delicate 'yet important' issue. It's a shame they havent come clean with a figure themselves, but I expect they are like you and me, a little afraid of pricing themselves out of the market.

All responces here are good and you would be well advised to read them all again very carefuly. But I would add a couple of things, and this has stood me in good stead all through my working life.
Keep as many options as possible open to you. You have done a good job in selling yourself so far and you need to close the deal now. It could be that the company are looking towards a strong character to nail the deal. It could also be the opposite, so no help here.


But the one thing that I have always stood by is a no bullying policy. This cuts both ways so be careful. What I mean is that I fear no one, and have the utmost respect for their position.
It's your interview and your future, You are entitled to be positive and strong with your responces. Use body language to tell them you mean business, and offer to put yourself up for reviewing based on results in the appropriate time frame.

If you make it clear that you understand that they also have a difficult decision to make and show them empathy, this could demonstrate your understanding of them as a company and the market place. Providing you are as good as you think and say you are, you will be judged on your results, and the pay issue will melt into the distance given time.

Be mindfull that there may also be someone already in place that is gearing up to take your credit and make your efforts seem like light work.

So prepare yourself for this interview and demonstrate your positive side by asking them questions on what they are expecting from an employee. But only do this after the salery issue, and towards the end of the interview.

Good luck, be positive and completely professional, but don't be cockey.

My job coach preaches that the first one to talk money "loses". I always answer the question of salary with, "market rate" or "I am sure you pay a competitive rate", etc.

Since you've already stated 35K I would use the cost of living. If offered the 35K you could state "I've been doing research on the cost of living here compared to my current place of residence and I believe I will need 45K to maintain the same standard of living."

Be prepared for them to say they can't give you that or for them to rescind their offer. Don't kick yourself if you "price yourself out of the job". Decide what you want to live comfortably and continue to look for work.

Next time don't give a price, always say something like "I'm sure your wage is competitive" or "I'm sure you will offer what the position is worth to you", etc.

Number one: Know what your living expenses are going to be. How much will it cost you to maintain the standard of living you are accustomed to? If you can't exceed that by at least 10% (more like 20% IMNSHO), then you probably shouldn't take the job.

Number two: What is the market rate for that job in that area? If it's not at least 10% higher than your anticipated living expenses (as in nunber one), then you're in the market for the wrong job, or at least in the wrong place for it.

Number three: What are you willing to accept as non-monetary compensation for wages? Vacation, healthcare (for you or your family - a really big one!), retirement, flexible working hours, education & training, scholarships (for you or your family), tools & equipment, travel, etc. List out EVERYTHING and assign a dollar value to it. Those are all parts of your living expenses and if the company will directly provide those things, are usually not taxed, a big plus to you.

These may sound like no-brainer ideas; but it's amazing how many people never actually do the work to know.

Hello ObiWayne,

For professionals, salary is usually "negotiated". The best ammunition is a couple of other offer letters in hand with higher (but truthful) numbers on them. The strongest ammunition they have is your current salary. That's why they will ask you for a current pay stub and history info. It is prudent to remember that you are only worth what someone else is willing to pay. Try to keep the conversation focused on your skills and experience and how you would provide value and return on their investment.

I recently posed this question to a career counciler. His response was something like this: That information is somewhat confidential with your current employer. Also, in Canada, I believe that information is now covered under the privacy act and they can't disclose it, so why should you?

Sorry, got a sideways on the topic - the Councilers response was that you should respond to that question with something like "Well what did you have in mind?". If they pursue the question without any real response (and this is where a little market research is handy), you can say "well, I had something in the $xxxxxx.xx range in mind".

I personally hate when they ask that question at interviews for all the reasons that have been brought up in these postings. I liked the Counciler's approach and have used it myself with some success. At least I haven't had to take a pay cut yet!

The best salary answer I've heard came from an outplacement seminar. It goes something like this. "Although salary is important, it's not the most important factor to me. What's more important is that I can make a positive contribution as part of a team and have challenging work with the opportunity for advancement. With that, I'm sure that if you make a fair offer for the experience required and the scope of the job, that we will be able to come to an agreement"