Discussion on:

Why all the negativity about managment in this forum?

I have noticed the trend over last year on these boards to trash bosses and IT Management in general.

So, I am asking what you like about your job and what positive things has your current employer done to make your work environment positive?

Or, let me turn it a different way, what have you done to make your current place of employment a better place for everyone?

My boss has realized that I do a lot of my work after hours (usually between 11 pm and 3 am) so he has modified my work hours from 8-5 with an hour lunch to 9-5 without a lunch and when I come in late he does not say anything either. He also will give me some comp time (when I ask for it) to make up for the late hours.

I haven't noticed a lot of trashing of IT management. I've come across TR people that question it, but it appears that they have a need to gain an understanding of it.
It's what TR is for, I thought. Yes, some may abuse this free privilege....
It's good practice for the TR members to see what else is out there in the world, besides the one world THEY live in.
I encourage people to express themselves, honestly. And I encourage them to listen, just as well.
A question I have is, "How can people gain an understanding of their experiences if they can't question them?" TR blogs and discussions make for a good resource in getting some of their answers.
Maybe things will get better for these TR users, maybe they won't.
Maybe your posting here will encourage others to question IT management in a more positive way (?)
Best of wishes in recieving the answers

If you are a bad tech who can you successfully blame for it ?
If you are a bad manager who can you successfully blame for it?

Which group of techs got together and said I think we should all be outsourced ?

Which group said we are not really critical to the business function in the short term, lets lay ourselves off ?


You as a manager provide the environment we get techy in. If it's not a good one that's your fault, not ours.

Lot's of office politics, your fault.
Burn outs, your fault
Unhappiness due to lack of salary / prospects your fault.
No job security, your fault
Predjudice, cliques, favouritism, your fault.

Us bottom feeding types on the management food chain, can only do two things to address the sitaution.
Complain and put ourselves on the next train out.
Put ourselves on the next train out.

I personally work for a very big company, they have excellent staff retention rates, good salary, excellent environment. I'm also considered by them to be pretty good at what I do.

So expain why one week after the firm gave us a celebratory dinner having completed a major enhancement to the software suite on time and reasonably on budget working our asses off for ten months, we all got put at risk for a redundancy round.
Totally out of the blue, no intimation of disaster, nothing. I'd relocated there nine months previous.

Negative about management, cannot imagine why.

Now could say I should be positive about the fact that I kept my job, but I still don't know why I was put at risk and I still haven't been told why I didn't get let go.

So the negativity is gained through personal experience.

Everything you needed to learn you learned when you were 5. Obvously you missed this step.

Let's see, what value did you add to the post

1. It's always some else's fault!

2. It's never your fault.

3. It's always someone's fault.

Are you saying that no boss has ever done anything positive for you Or are you just ranting to rant?

TOM

When I drop a bollock, I hold up my hand and say so.
Do you ?

You do understand that it may be of benefit to your standing as a manager within a company to do things that are not benefits to those who work for you.

Or did you miss that bit ?

Now personally I can live with that as long as you don't say you are doing it for ME !

A positive department is based on the manager and his people doing well, if doing well means sticking your people on welfare and outsourcing, positive goes well negative doesn't it !

Why would someone be positive about being made redundant ?
It might make you look good as a manager, but it's unlikely to do crap for the git under the exit sign is it.

At your next appraisal, I suggest, you suggest you need to work on responding more positively to criticism.
ROTFLMAO.

Beautifully written. I could not agree more.

And shared of some experiences. In fact I was a part of a big celebratory meeting in which we were all told that we were doing a better job than in any previous period. Custonmer satisfaction was at an all time high.
1 week later, half the staff was let go.....the other half was overworked and eventually failed to perform to anything near what it did. Customer complaints often. I guess I was lucky, I lost my job on the 1/2 staff cut.

is it so much easier to complain and point fingures than it is to try and change things in a positive manner. i invite you to step into the shoes of management for one week. to do that, really look at what they do and understand why things happen the way they do. do you really believe the managers have that much control over what a company does?
lets look at your list a bit. outsourcing, why was that done. what was accomplished by it (other than pissing you off). who told the manager to outsource?
burn outs? managers burn out too. whos fault is that, still theirs?
unhappiness due to lack of salary and progress. what is the companies policy on raises and promotions? if your not getting these things is it really the managers fault?
job security? managers are at risk of losing their jobs also. remember there is either a president or a board of directors the manager must answer to. if the manager does not show growth and profit, he's out.
predjudice, cliques, that can be created by any one in the company, doesn't have to be the manager. favouratism, that is a human failing and if you have a boss that likes suck ups, then i have little use for them too.
it is so very easy to convince ourselves that someone else is always to blame for our problems. i am not saying all managers are good, just like not all IT techs are good. in more cases than not, the manager is stuck in the middle, **** rolling down from on top and **** being shovled from below. maybe trying to understand the situation causing the problem and finding a positive solution would better serve all than sitting on your hands and pointing at one group and saying they are to blame for everything. as for office politics, the worst people for playing that game are the workers themselves. i've spent 30 years managing people in one industry to another. some people i got along with famously, others turned out to be a constant war. personalities don't always match and that causes friction, but to say managers anre souly responsible for your problems is pretty immature. they are not perfect and i don't think you are either. give each other a chance, try working with them instead of us them mentality. you might be supprised. if i am wrong and your manager is a real jerk, like i said they are only human and nobody is perfect.

The question was negativity towards management, not line managers, department managers, but the people running the company.

I know what my job is, do you know yours?

Simple question, if it benefits the company, or even the manager to get rid of me, why am I expected to be positive about this, for you ?
the company ?

Try to understand the problem, the problem is very simple, I won't work for nothing so the shareholders can have their values maximised.
Try to understand that.

I worked my way up from the bottom to the heady heights of senior developer, no certs, no degree, just a lot a hard work, that my managers and my employers have are and will benefit from. If I cost more than I add value, they're asking me to do the wrong thing. I'm a developer !

I do tell them when that's happening, but of course there's a cash flow problem hampering the possibly of investment, or I can't say it's risk free!

Just to make it clear, I'm a tech because I like it and I'm damn good at it, not because I was too stupid to be a manager.

Bearing in mind my first day at work was in Jan 81, and I've spent less than six months in total out of work since then. Describing me as immature because you took my post as a personal attack is hilarious.

i have been retired now since 1992, i have nothing to prove and nothing to disprove. the point being made in regards to immaturity lies with the fact that you were blameing all ills on management. that attitude is immature and does not do you justice. re-read what is written, you will see that i also blame management, only difference is i also blame workers. try wrapping your mind around that and don't take things so personal. life is much to short to be so cynical this early in life. enjoy life and if you enjoy being an IT tech horay for you. too many people work at jobs they do not like because they have no choice. if you are lucky enough to work at what you like fabulos but please take some responsiblilty for your own grief at times.

As a manager you get to be the company bad guy, you make decisions, good or bad that affect the livelihood's of those work work for you.
Fine that's the job, don't tell me I have to like being on the receiving end though.
Times have been hard recently, not as hard for me as they've been in the past, but much harder than they have been in a while.

That means manager's have had to make, or implement some very unpopular decisions, unopular = negative.
Even if like me you didn't get booted into the street, it still means you've got to be looking over your shoulder all the time checking for the corporate hit man, wth the dagger and a figure on the bottom line of their spreadsheet.

It's often said that techs don't communictae successfully to management, communication is a two way process, so if there's a failure, it's on both sides.

Edited for spilleng misteak, that made me look like a uneducated fool.

for once i completly agree with you and that statement. i hope life treats you better soon so you may enjoy the benefits of your labours. take care.

It sounds like a cliche,...and I have no doubt you would see it that way,...but you are completely wrong when you put all of that blame on management. I have been let go, and I have been promoted but I still have an overall positive view of those experiences. The times that I have taken a negative view are the same times that the situation was made worse by my attitude. Looking back at those times, I see where I was at fault.

I cannot judge your specific situation since I wasn't there, but I can say that your post tells me a great deal about your view of that situation.
I always look at different situations from the perspective of " What part did I play in this?", or "What can I learn from this?" and sometimes I see what I did wrong and sometimes I see that I did nothing wrong. Every situation is different - I've worked for jerks and good bosses - but I have often found that some of these decisions are based on information that employees do not always have.

It's amazing to see how easy it is to point the finger elsewhere.

Well lets see.

I was foolishly born to parents who couldn't afford to pay for my full time education.

I foolishly finished school in the requisite number of years when unemployment was at an all time high.

I was foolishly too young to vote, so intelligent old people, mainly managers voted Thatcher in and consigned an entire generation to slave wages and negative equity or re-posession and welfare.

I foolishly made my self look like a communist when I joined a union in a closed shop, should have stayed on welfare really.

I foolishly got far to big for my britches and took you can't progress your career because you'd have to be a manager and manager's have to have degrees to heart.

I foolishly joined a state of the art massive company using cutting edge technology to send xml content to their 15 year old non xml aware in house vpn, which strangely did not come right out at the other side !

I foolishly assumed that I was working with competent people, but competent people don't design order processing software with a 1:1 link with customer do they. Especially when they want more than one order per customer!.

I've made lot's of mistakes in my career, never ones that cost me or anyone else their job though. I've successfully put people out of work though (thru automation), perhaps I would make a good manager.

The perception is to be a good manager you reduce costs, on account of increasing revenue requires an initial investment, a risk and it's much harder. Not to mention trusting that stroppy tech to get it done, because 'you' aren't capable of it.

As techs we implement business policy, not set it, I'll have a go if you want, but then your boss might suddenly see an opportunity to maximise shareholder value. Bet you'd learn from that as well.


It's amazing to see how easy it is to point the finger ANYwhere else and it's much less effort to point down.

Speaking as a "good tech" who turned into a "bad Manager" I would say this:

A tech needs the right tools for the job, no matter how "good" he is if he doesn't have the right tools he will not do the job as good as he could.

Same for a Manager. It doesn't matter how good he is a organizing, motivating, etc. If his people only care about money, vacation days and talking on the phone he is out of luck.

A manager's performance is measured by the performance of those who report to him, so no matter how hard he tries he can be undercut by someones else's bad attitude.

How many managers have you undercut?

I work my ass off, I'm damn good at what I do and I've been doing it for a very long time.

I've had the rug pulled from under me on a regular basis though.

A final point about money, it's not mine or even anybodies only motivation. However if as a manager you wish to deprive me of it as an indicator of your success in benefitting our employer, you'd better offer me something in it's place, something better than being proud my CEO can afford a porsche !, or the fact that some shares that I can't afford have increased in value.

The only bad attitude I have, is that I whinge when someone asks me to smile while they are raping my ass, then only offer me half the remuneration with a 'take or leave it'.

I do care about the quality of my work, all evidence suggests I care far more about it than my employers.

Well I can do a horrible bodge within the time frame you set without talking to me, or I can rewrite the entire product.

Horrible bodge it is then !

Who did you let undercut you ?

Your apparent vitriol illustrates a die-hard "us vs. them" attitude with which further discussion would be fruitless.

By virute of "shouting" and "colorful" language you win, I concede...

but it is the defeat of those that take the time to listen and try to educate. try to introduce some balance in the work place and the world. your comments were very insightful and to the point, thank you

Well, I tried to explain to you, but because your education is so limited, I failed.
No you didn't fail, I agree with everyone of your points, with two provisos.
None of them applied to me.
I haven't got a skills deficit.
I can communicate with managers.
I am an extremely competent developer.
I am very committed, honest and hard working.
I have enormous respect for anyone who can do something better than I can.

I do not suck up, I don't pander, I call a spade a shovel.
So where am I going wrong? Do tell, come on educate me !
I love to learn as well.

Just spare me the salute the logo crap OK.

Non-technical Mangers like the suckups. Even if they are the &%## ups. Good techs do the work and spend tons of personal time developing new skills.

BTW, I just migrated an Oracle DB to Linux from HPUX in 2 hours (120GB) a first for me.

THe point is management doesn't realize we are learning all the time...

When you look at your situations, what is the one "constant"...? Spoon-fed answer: yourself.

Get over it. You're not a victim of the evil managers and their scheme's to ruin your happiness. As long as you have the atittude you are demonstrating, then you will "prove" yourself correct.
Enjoy your choice.

I am enjoying it, thank you very much. I don't view the fact that I don't want to be a manager as a failure. Is that what you are saying ?
I'm getting the distinct impression, that the reason I'm irritating you is that, I refuse to be a victim.
Well I can live with that.

I didn't imply that you should want to be a manager. I am saying that you have a victim mentality. I have been in many different situations both good and bad and I take responsiblity for my choices in all situations. Are there bad managers? Of course. Are you a bad employee? maybe not your skillset but, quite frankly from what I see on this forum, you're attitude would make you an undesireable person to hire or keep hired.

When you see a repeatable pattern in your life then you need to look at your choices.

It's a great deal like relationships, some people always choose the wrong partner for some odd reason and then claim that "all men/women are evil".

Obviously, these are judgements based solely on your posts. If I met you in person I might have a different opinion...I kind of doubt that but I might.

The polite rebuttal is , that turns out not to be the case.
In english, bollocks mate.

Even in my six year period of contracting, I only had four contracts and the five months in total of that I spent I out of work is the only time I ever have been.

I started on a welfare to work program, entering numbers into a dumb terminal on shifts in 81. I started self educating in 85, got my dream move in to IT in 87, never looked back since, bend lead /senior developer since 92.

Do you know I did all that? attitude.

I'd be the first to admit, that my complete disinterest in paying lip service to concepts I have no respect for has caused me a few difficulties.

However there are people who respect honesty, I'm one of them. I don't expect people to like me, and anyone who doesn't and says they do for whatever reason is in my cultured and erudite opinion a complete and utter tosser.

LOL

You are absolutely right. You are in most of these types of situations because of your attitude.

This isn't a personal attack despite how it might appear. You're posts just seem to have a bit of vitriol and defeatism. I see that a great deal in IT and the individuals never think for one minute that they could have contributed in any way to their predicament.

If you are not that way then bully for you. I have been that way on a couple occasions and, when I look back, I can see and admit that. I find that I have been respected as an employee and as a manager because of my ability to step back and see all sides of a situation.

I'm curious,...if you didn't get the "last word" in this string of posts, would you ever quit replying?

I honestly don't believe that we will come to an agreement but, I have to admit to having some fun with this. I'll probably quit before long so you don't have to worry about putting that to the test.

Who knows I might have to interact with someone with your sort of outlook, a bit of practice might help me avoid pressing someone's buttons in ignorance.
Unintentionally irritating someone is something I try to avoid, that sort of thing leads to bad surprises.

We may have both read each other a bit wrong. I posted a list of reasons that are 'popular negatives' about management. In return three managers posted other factors, which could lead to a cessation of employment, and suggested a bit more logo saluting and lot less complaining might be in order.

Looked like a cop out to me, like you were saying it wasn't the market, business strategy or management incompetency that led to the situation, but a personal failing on the employee's part.

That can only be true in indivdual cases, large scale layoffs are a failure of management.
If all your key employees are tossers that are dragging down your business then there ahas been no management.

The best advice I can give any IT manager, is get good people in and keep'em. The latter is quite simple with people who are tech happy, because they do it for more than the money in the first place. All you have to do is not get caught taking the urine out of them.

Most times it's not the IT Department Manager who's at fault but Upper Management who tell the lowly IT Manger what to do how to do it and when.

I've often been in the position of having to lay off staff because the Company has chosen a different direction generally to Corporate Suicide. But in every case once things have become inevitable I have kept my staff fully informed as to what is going on asked does anyone want to leave and had jobs for them to go to. Upper Management didn't like this because those Overpaid Disposable Expensive Workers went to another company who where competing against us and brought our work procedures to those companies which always made it harder to keep the company that they where let go from competitive in the market.

My comeback has always been Well you fired them what did you expect them to do go home and cry for ever?

Of course when you get Bean Counters running the show I know that it's time to leave for a different position and I tell all my staff the same thing. It's makes the Bean Counters really happy when the entire Service Department Resigns as then they can replace them all with $2.00 per hour staff who know nothing and provide such a great service to their customers which ends up costing them sales.

Col

First, full disclosure, I am the "boss" in my company. From what I see in too many organizations management uses employees as disposable pawns. People are not stupid and recognize when they are not being treated fairly. Unfortunately for too many people they have obligations requiring them to accept and put up with management BS. Of course as soon as a better opportunity presents itself these same employees bolt to the dismay and surprise of management. I enjoy Dilbert, the scenarios put forward in this strip are all too real.

I work for a communications company as a lead floor technichan in their Internet support department. After working there for a year and a half as a temp answering calls from customers, I was employeed full time by the company. Within 6 months I was given the Lead position, still speaking to customer, but only on more of a higher level of support.

I would rather be working in their IT department support the companies network, as the company provided finiancial assistance for my schooling to earn my Associates degree, and continue to provide that same assistance for my Bachlors. Yet after my second time I applied for an open position, I was informed I did not have the experience or knowledge to do the position, I gained a part time job work as a Help desk coordinator for a local college that I earned my Associates degree from to place on my resume, I am still passed up. A member of the team I help manage is given a third interview and knows a 1/3 of what I do about the job. Why should I not hold a grudge. And companies, especially their managment, wonder why we look else where for positions out side the company.

What you describe does not show bad management necessarily. If what you say is true, then obviously there is another reason that you are being turned down for that position. It might be that they don't like your personality or your attitude; they have an incorrect impression of your skill set; they feel that they need you in your present position as something best for the company; or something else. Perhaps management should be more open and honest, but people (all people) generally tend to take the easy way out. You need to find out the real story. Maybe sit down with HR or the hiring manager for that department and discuss what you say here.

I have to agree, sometimes there are other reasons then not knowning enough for the job. I worked for a wireless company and was along with taking care of local systems including retail, managed a b2b sales office. I put my name in for a retail managers position and was interviewed but when it came down to the disicion, the regional manager gave it to the #2 person stating that I was doing to good of a job and it would be hard to replace me in my current position and did give me a raise. Scarey enough, six months later the company closed down my office and the regional administrative office and myself and all other "management" except retail was laid off by the company in my region.

Eh, but I will. lol, no guts no glory.

I worked for a state government for 22 years. Our IT department was tight. We had standards in place years before most of the rest of the IT departments did. We had to submit weekly status reports showing our tasks, hours, and progress on all our assignments years before the rest of the state IT departments did. We were able to meet all mandated compensation reporting requirements within the time frame assigned(business environment was workers comp insurance), before most private insurance companies did. And with less of a staff.

The wisdom of the state, governor's and the like. Not management, but what I consider the corporate white tower consolidated all IT departments throughout the state without providing the staff's an idea as to where they would be after this consolidation. Many people left, departments became short staffed and productivity fell.
I always considered my on site management, including the IT manager and the person above her as completely fair and considerate. They wanted things done by their IT staff within a reasonable budget and time frame. They got it, and they treated their IT staff well.

I was one of the people that finally left, and currently am a contractor with a publishing company. I listen to the people complain there about their management, and think they have no idea how bad it really can be. Their management may not understand everything going on, but they treat their people well. Maybe not paying top dollar, but their is a lot of freedom.
I may have a chance to get full time with this company. I'll take it, because I do like their management and what they are trying to do.

I think a person's idea of what management is(good/bad) is in their perspective of what they know. I also think that IT don't have the corner on not liking management.

From my experience, I didn't think the ivory white tower of corporate state government had a clue of what the waisted away. But, then again. I was a grunt, just like I am now. And I also don't know what they really wanted in the end or what they were trying to accomplish. I don't think they got what they wanted, but. Hey, what do I know.

I like my job now. I moved on. I found what I think, at least at the moment is good management and a resonably challanging environment. I hope that others who dislike how they are treated can find some way to enjoy their job again too.


Dan

and I believe we contractors see things from a better prespective. I not alowed to give my opions, suggestions, or reflections. King os like those 3 monkeys, speak no ..., see no ..., hear no ...

Mike

As a manager who has hired (and fired) more than a few people over the years I can assure you the reasons given for not hiring someone are usually politically corrected B$.

A hiring manager has to be very carefull to eliminate candidates that will not fit in a job to preserve the dynamics of the group. The risk of lawsuits and/or complaints encourages a manager to dismiss a candidate based on a "safe" reason, "not enough experience" for example. If manager thinks you will be a bad social fit for the department or may have puffed-up your resume to look good, s/he can't come out and say that for fear of a lawsuit.

I'm not saying any of this applies in your specific situation. But it possible that you were not given the position for other reasons and "lack of experience" was just a generic reason.

After all, one is more inspired to write when we have something to get off our chests, than when everything is hunky-dory.

My company let me have unlimited paid time off after each of my partner's miscarriages. I get above inflation pay rises. The only barrier to getting training is finding courses I want to go on (they paid for some of my degree, which I had started before joining the company). Officially I don't get flexi-time, but I do get it.

In return, I have been coaching my colleagues in "managing up". This is a process where if you know more about a subject than your boss, you decide what decision s/he should make, then you carefully filter the information you give them to remove anything that may confuse them or prevent them from making the decision that is needed. The boss grows more confident as they get kudos from making good decisions, and trusts you more and more. The department excels, and is less likely to be downsized or out-sourced.

No job is safe, few are easy. But then, we wouldn't need paying if they were, would we?

What do I like about my job?

1. I like what I do.
2. I like who I do it with.
3. I pretty much like my pay. (Until I see what the boobs in charge are paid to sit around and ask stupid questions and hold meetings where nothing is accomplished.)
4. I like my immediate boss. (Would not want his job or have to answer to who he answers to.)

Still, I cannot help but go on a rant here. Boss's/owner's act as if they have a right to try to get something done for free. Well, I have been what I thought was pretty much free enterprise all my life, still am. Owned my own company for a while and did well for a time, so I understand both sides. But it really abrades the skin off my ass when I hear American corprations bitch about a lack of employee loyalty at the same time they are all squirty in their britches about outsourcing to India. Pure and simply, get in, learn skills no one else there knows, don't show anyone else...protect your job! This is not an attitude I want, it is an attitude brought on by corporations who refuse to understand they have an obligation to their employees and their welfare. Not just minimal compliance with govt requirements.

So, for all you owners/CEOs out there, go ahead, knock yourself out by squeezing your employees and satisfying the short term mentality of your shareholders. All you are doing is breeding a new generation of competitors who know your business better than you do because they do the actual work.

Hell, even Microsoft knows this.

The average manual laborer get $15 - $20 an hour... a trained, certified MCSA/MCSE is often offered the same, if he also has Exchange, Unix, Sun and SQL experience. I saw the job offer in a recent classifed.

Plus he should be able to handle Desk top support in his free time.

Is that the fault of management, who knows?

Here I sit with Degrees and certifications, experience to boot...

yet my daughter's 24 year old friend with no education is making my wage .... as a short order cook at a truck stop!

Now mind you, I LOVE my job, it's why I'm still here.

But it would be lovely to make a bit more than a short order cook!

Hey,

Without a doubt the most important thing is that my manager gives me the license I need to do my job. We also have a weekly sit down where I update him on the progress of current issues but he makes the meeting a time to resolve issues or find solutions, NOT just a time for me to prove that I am keeping busy.

j

I work for a company in a small town in Ebensburg PA. The ownership are friendly, and accessable. It is a pleasant working environment.
The company willing to invest what it takes to keep us current. I have only once been in the owners office once about a complaint in my 8+ years here. The move here was a parrallel one. But the biggest factor as I thought and prayed about the decision was the management. It was a good move.

There is often a poor path to management, technicians that are good at their job are rarely promoted to management, and if they are, don't have the expertise to make it.

There are those that pretend to be good at management, but have little technical expertise - so they are treated with distane by their technical staff. And generally, they aren't good managers either, so they can't make the best of the situation.

These problems happen in all disciplines, but the problems appear to be more acute in IT: possibly because of the passion most IT people have for their job, and partly because most senior management has no clue what makes a good IT employee, and even less of an idea what makes a good IT manager.

I am hoping the answers that you receive from this question will help us managers.

I know that some bosses are just mentally unstable and impossible to work for. But could it be possible that we need to look at ourselves and see if we can improve? When you think about it,that is all you can really do. Could it be that WE are sometimes the 'jerk'? You might think that you are the greatest person in the world to manage, but are you sure? Maybe we should ask our wives to get an honest opinion!