Discussion on:

Ever just 'had' it with your boss?

Its one thing to have a boss who is willing to learn and ask questions..its another thing to have one who assumes that when you work with "technology" the computer actually does the work.

Since my boss left a few months ago, i now report to a higher up director. She makes no effort to consider what my job actually involves.

So after a few times of her asking me to "find the time" to start documenting the database which she she had "previously mentioned", i got a bit annoyed...

Then i overheard her say to one of her peers that if i drop everything i should be able to get it done by the end of the week.

Hmm..yes..i'll get right on that mam. Thought.."right then, if you know so much..lets just show you soemthing"

Soooooo..downloaded Visio (great little tool by the way..its my new friend)..reverse engineered the database..created DB Diagram showing all linked tables, reference tables..etc etc..(you get the picture)

Then, i printed the whole diagram..(database has over 150 tables)..spent the afternoon taping the individual sheets together and then hung the thing on the wall. It takes up almost 1 entire wall of the office.

When she walked in later and exclaimed "mother of..what is that". I said, thats the database. In order to document it, i need to visualise it, because there are too many tables to remeber in my head. Now what i have to do is document each table and all items within the table, all relationships between the tables, etc etc..I think i lost her at Data Types...

Before she escaped me, i told her that as long as nothing else major got in the way, i should have the guts of it done by end of Oct..

Maybe i was a bit over the top..but i had to show her somehow that the pc does not actually do my work for me..

ANyone else ever had to "show" the boss what it actually takes to get the job done? ANy tips?

My previous boss attended a meeting where one of her peers (Director level) stated that they were waiting on a document from us. She was suprised because I had stated that we had completed a draft and sent it out for review.

She called me - I was travelling - and proceeded to just crucify me, because she felt embarassed and uninformed. I felt so low - she really laid it into me.

I tried to explain the scenario to her but she was too angry to listen. After I hung up I took a long walk to cool off and contemplate things.

At the time, I had been in the job for 6 months and the job market sucked, so I decided to stick it out.

I did give her a little more detail as to exactly where we were - what was completed, what was waiting for feedback and who we were waiting on (people who worked for the director who started the whole thing, of course). I tried to explain - after we both had calmed down, next day - what the process was.

I did repair the relationship with the boss, and she was moved into another area. Now I have a boss a little more in tune with what I do and one who pushes me to do more. And my old boss still calls me into her office and asks me how its going - she considers me a friend.

One of the important questions to ask when given a task like that is why? Who is the audience? What level of detail do they need? What purpose does it serve? That will help you decide what kind of document you produce and how soon you should produce it.

There are always things that need documenting. Understanding what the relative importance of the task is key.

Hope that helps.

James

IT people stereotypically fail to cultivate the social aspects of the business environment. And it's arguably the most important part in that it enables everything else to be accomplished.

I applaud your taking the time to get over the emotional part and go back and rationally explain the situation to the 'oblivious' boss. Instead of an adversary for life, you now have a 'true beleiver' who is willing and eager to support you.

I'd call that a Win-Win situation.

I had a boss (in a small company) to whom, in his words, wanted me to do things on my own with little help. Then he had daily meetings in which I would detail everything that I worked on, and how/what I did to resolve. It was annoying, because I was ALWAYS wrong. So, he decided that I had to check with him before doing anything. Then when I did, I was not taking initiative, and should be able to do it on my own without checking. The circle went around like that for about 3 months. Then he decided to fire me because I never did 1 thing right the entire time I was there.
I was sooo releived when he took me to HR and told me I was being let go. It wasnt for another hour, on my way home when I realized that I needed to start looking for a job again (I hate that).
Funny thing, 2 weeks with my replacement, I was called and asked if I wanted to come back as the new guy was worse than me..... Guess what I told him?

I moved on and havent wanted to be in a similar situation since.

I had a boss (SCO-UNIX guy) Who micro-managed everything. God forbid you come up with a new idea (like Dreamweaver to replace vi as a web page editor). His stock response? "Why would anyone want to do that??" which of course was code for "I don't want to learn anything new/do anything besides code in C using vi."

Take junk burned out parts to the trash? You were stealing from the company. Use a trashbag in a trashcan? You were stealing from the company.

I think he took it as a personal insult when my cardiologist said I wasn't having a massive heart attack, just workplace stress. Maybe using the health plan was stealing from the company as well.

I had a boss in the Air Force who was a "hands-on" manager. He was the Ops Superintendent, I was the Logistics NCO. He required a "daily summary" each morning: a comprehensive plan, with justification for each action, of everything I and my subordinates would do that day. He also wanted periodic updates during the day to ensure we were adhering to the plan.

He once told me my management style was deficient because I assigned tasks to my subordinates without providing precise instructions for completing those tasks. I also had to ask my people exactly what they were doing when he wanted information. He would ask "What's Bill working on?" and I would reply "We've got a broken radio; he's checking this function." "No, what module is he working on in the radio? Are you sure it's what is broken?"

We finally figured out that if we overloaded him with information, he would take it for about 5 minutes, then just walk away. He got promoted by default (small career field, only eligible) and, I think, divorced at about the same time. The promotion, thankfully, got him reassigned.

Edit: fix bad tag

I had a manager (prefer this term instead of boss), that was pretty lenient. But, we were a contracting agency for a large corp. Usually, the corp would not be too bad to work for, but whenever something big was going on (like a virus) they would micro manage the crap out of us. 2-3 times a day for an update, I had to know who was working on what any time they called. They wanted specifics, like what computer/server was being fixed, what the progress of it was, who managed the computer/server (a lot were under the desk servers), etc., etc..
I could not do anything except keep tabs on people, and we had less productivity because of it. Not only that, the entire 14 person staff was totally stressed until the problem(s) were resolved.
Sometimes, when the wrong person is in charge, they hinder everything. I guess by definition that these managers retard everything, or are retarded/retarding.

Sometimes, when the wrong person is in charge, they hinder everything. I guess by definition that these managers retard everything, or are retarded/retarding.



nice thought to keep in my head when the day has gone to Hades in a handbasket



edited for html tags gone mad

"I guess by definition that these managers retard everything, or are retarded/retarding."

Classic! I think I'm going to make a demotivational poster with this nugget!

when completed

I had a manager (prefer this term instead of boss), that was pretty lenient.

In a friendly talk with my lead/manager, I told him he was very liberal (meaning he was lenient). He immediately disagreed and explained why he was not a Liberal

"She makes no effort to consider what my job actually involves."

"...few times of her asking me to "find the time" to start documenting the database which she she had "previously mentioned"..."

"i overheard her say to one of her peers that if i drop everything i should be able to get it done by the end of the week."

Straight talk...Ready?

This is evidence that she is Irish (surname O'Blivious) and/or just doesn't CARE (likely). She flies above the details, doesn't understand the details, and will resist all attempts to be drawn into the details. And, she is openly questioning your competence. BIG red flag. This is how managers like her deal with things, even when it is untrue (and this is not a gender thing in any way).

I've seen this kind of thing many times before. It is very common in middle and senior IT managers. I suggest you just do your best to try to give her what she is asking for (what, and when). And, stop trying to give her information that she does not want and will not understand. You are only hurting yourself by doing so. No amount of explaining and justifying is going to bring her around.

It was clever and smart of you to illuminate the size of the task using Visio (GREAT tool). But, I think you need to try to be more subtle about it. If you illuminate it too brightly, you are also showing how little she knows about things and that threatens her.

Do you think I am close? You're the best judge of this. I'm just a guy on a keyboard thousands of miles away.

I'll be happy to expand on this with you if you like. I've got a lot of stories that I could tell about this kind of thing. Just let me know.

Good luck.

TE2, I have to disagree.

If the manager does not understand what they are not asking for, they will continue to complain that Shell has not provided this "simple little thing".

You give them what they want and need when possible, but when they ask for the impossible, they must be made aware of EXACTLY what it will take to give them what they want AND WHY.

Now I want that index of the internet on my desk by the end of the week.

Maybe... We'll see what Shell says. None of us can judge this very well from here. It's up to Shell to process this (and she will do just fine).

I see a lot of red flags in Shell's post.

But, I could be completely wrong! (and it will be -1 point Tech!)

the storage system you asked for. You know, the one we're going to store the Internet on locally so we don't lose it if the ISP goes down? I can't get the index if we don't have that system...

The internet is not a dump truck, it's a bunch of tubes! How do you store a bunch of tubes filled with material!

God, I swear...people on TR are SO stupid sometimes.

I've pretty much realised all you've said.

Background: My position
I do Database support/ administration / small bit of development / report generation / statistical analysis / technical analysis / etc etc..
I am NOT in the IT dept tho, our IT consists of 3 hardware/network staff. I am in the Research dept (think academics/ education/ policy, not IT dev)
Reason I am not in IT is because the database was the brainchild of the Research dept. They paid for it and pay my wages. They refuse to hand it over to IT because they want to "own" it and the information that comes out of it.

In the year and a half i've been here, i have had 3 different managers. Half the problem is, they are academics, not IT people, and they can't handle dealing with the database. All along it has been left up to me to get the job done and let them know of any problems. They have all been brilliant and fought the fight for me..whether it was software, hardware, money for more development..etc. They appreciated that i know what i need to do and get on with it and frankly, they were terrified of the work they seen me doing and didn't even want to know. However, they appreciated how hard i worked and my attempts to include them by using the least amount of tech jargon i could.

Now since the last one left, they finally realised that these academics cannot handle being my manager due to the technical knowledge needed. In May they said they were going to hire a "Database Manager" (which i could apply for), and asked ME to write the job spec for it. They have yet to even put the spec out yet.

So, basically, the director of the Research dept is my superior by default. This woman cannot work her email or remember where she saved a file to..never mind understand a database.
I have done and continue to do more than is required of me. To be honest, if i stuck to my job spec, I'd have a lot more time for TR, but i continually tweak, fix, and improve and have to do massive amounts of data maintenace & reporting due to the sh1tty job the developers did on the application.

As for documenting the database, i am doing it because we have NO documentaion. Yes, you heard me..none..well, ok, i found an original mock up for 3 screens which look nothing like they started out as, and a list of available option within our hundreds of drop down lists, and a list of the reports we requested be set up. They commissioned, implemented and signed off on the thing before they hired me. All i have for reference is a binder full of emails which make references to "oh we changed our mind, we now want this to be like this".
So i need to document the entire thing..i have most of it stored up in my head, but i cannot always be here (and don't plan on being here too much longer..once i get my MCAD i am gone).
When i was off this summer for a while, they realised that no one in the place has a clue about this stuff. They actually went to IT and asked them to do some work on it, they laughed at them. My boss does not understand technology at all. Surely if one is in IT, they must know how to work with the database.

So basically, she asked me to do this, after I recamended that i do it (yes she reads my recamendations, then puts that into her work for her boss; makes it look like she knows what she's on about, and then comes to me and tells me what i should do next.) I don't have a problem doing what i am asked, but when i'm working flat out, i just do not physically have the time to do more. I asked for a part time admin assistant ages ago..they were gonna think about it..which means no..
She expects me to have it done in like 4 days..she once made the comment of "well sure, all you have to do is tell the computer what it has to do and let it do its job"..

Grrr..how do i tell someone like that, that it takes me 3-5 days to write a stored procedure for a complex report when all they want to see is the button they click to see that report..it only takes 4 seconds for it to be displayed, so surely it only takes me 4 seconds to create it??

I would never deliberatley try to make anyone look silly because they don't know something..i completely understand that this is not her area. I don't understand the work she does, BUT i do try and make the effort to appreciate what she has to do to get her work done. All i want is a bit of professionalism.

I was so p1ssed the other day i almost did walk out..as i have been without a contract since August, i thought feck it..why bother..

BTW..she is Irish

I think you are being very smart. (just a statement, not a compliment)

Your boss is not an incompetent/insecure IT person, she is not an IT person at all! And, she doesn't report in an IT department. This changes everything. Your boss is essentially your user/client/customer.

I can see why you chose to go a little over the top with the Visio diagrams. That was a good move. What these researchers need is to better understand how the database works, how it was built, what it takes to modify it, etc. Carry on. Carry on. MORE Visio diagrams.

Sounds like the Database Manager job could easily be yours if you want it. It would be a very different role from what you have been doing. You would be the liaison with these academic people for your replacements (there should be more than one, but you know that). You would be teacher, explainer, interpreter, comforter to these academics. But, this is a dangerous role. Since you are doing this for the customer who is also the boss, when they don't like your answer, the boss part just puts DIRECT pressure on. And, this is a big red flag: "In the year and a half i've been here, i have had 3 different managers."

This manager job is a great opportunity to anyone who desires it to fill it. [ it's too bad that great pain seems to often accompany great opportunity! ]

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"So basically, she asked me to do this, after I recamended that i do it (yes she reads my recamendations, then puts that into her work for her boss; makes it look like she knows what she's on about, and then comes to me and tells me what i should do next.)"

I really don't understand why THIS is frustrating.

It is VERY bad that she plays games like this. She is essentially lying. And, she will work hard to perpetuate this illusion at all costs. Not a good person to work near, let alone for. I've worked for someone just like this, more than once.

Of course, this illusion is essential for this non-IT group to own a tiny IT database department of their own. She must project this illusion of control to her bosses. This will not change.

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"...she once made the comment of "well sure, all you have to do is tell the computer what it has to do and let it do its job".. Grrr..how do i tell someone like that, that it takes me 3-5 days to write a stored procedure for a complex report..."

You're already doing the right thing. Being frustrated with this is part of the job.

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I think you already know all of this and are completely on top of your situation. Sharp! Good luck Shell!

Even though i think most of these things myself..i often wonder if i am being too sensitive or nitpicky, so it is comforting to have someone else say them!

As for the Manager job..i don't think i want it. Not yet anyways. I've been a manager before in a more general admin office, its OK, but i don't have enough experience to manage someone like myself yet (wow..that sounds flaky).

Now to go bury myself in documentation...

Something else...

"but i don't have enough experience to manage someone like myself yet"

Most first-time IT managers are a bit overwhelmed in their first IT management job. I didn't feel entirely qualified or entirely ready when I pursued and got my first one.

My first one was a HUGE jump. In my early twenties, I was in a situation that had some similarites to yours (and some differences). It was a traditional datacenter with a traditional management structure (operations and software departments reporting to datacenter manager who reported to business manager who also had sales and marketing teams). It was a small business unit (about 50 people) that was a part of a very large multinational corporation. I was a software engineer and there was a lot of chaos. After about 18 months on the job, and having had 3 software unit managers cycle through (sound familiar?), I went to the business manager and told him that even at my tender age I could do the job at least as well as the three guys who couldn't stand the heat. I got the job and a huge raise, and he made me report directly to him (big warning flag that I could not see clearly enough at the time...early twenties!). With it came my first "panic attack" (never heard of that before, happened only once) and a massive "education" in management politics from my much older "peer" managers (30+/40+/50+) who saw me as "lunch". I held my own! Overall, it was a HUGE positive growing/learning/career experience for me and I have never regretted it.

Based on what I see, you could quickly grow in to this management job if that path were your choice. But, it's strictly a personal choice, not right or wrong, not good or bad. It all depends on what YOU want. And, you must really WANT to be an IT manager in order to justify all of the headaches. BIG headaches.

Either way, I think you're sharp and on top of things. Good luck!

Don't think of it as "manage someone like myself". What it would be is doing your existing job, NOT having to answer to this rotating id10t string, AND having your assistant to work WITH you, to help get things done.

And it really should have been taken out of that department a long time ago, from the sounds of it. Not to mention, like you pointed out, if IT is not a part of it, short of the hardware, they will not support it.

I have to do the same thing for some systems. I keep the hardware going, but if you have a problem USING the software, call the 1800 support line that comes with the package or send me off to Texas for training on the system.

Don't forget, primal scream therapy works wonders! Ranting and raving HERE to let off steam is also better than at the boss. We have already had the "dumb user" joke posts. Maybe it is time for the "dumb boss" jokes?

When you have an "I hate my job" day, try this: On your way home from work, stop at the pharmacy, go to the thermometers section and purchase a rectal thermometer made by "Best Thermo". Be very sure you get this brand.

When you get home, lock your doors, draw the drapes, and disconnect the phone so you will not be disturbed during your therapy. Change to very comfortable clothing, such as a sweat suit and lie down on your bed. Open the package and remove the thermometer. Carefully place it on the bedside table so that it will not become chipped or broken.

Take out the material that comes with the thermometer and read it. You will notice that in small print there is a statement: "Every rectal thermometer made by Best Thermo is personally tested." Now close your eyes and repeat out loud five times: "I am so glad I do not work for quality control at the Best Thermo Company."

If a train station is where the train stops and a bus station is where the bus stops, what is a work station?

Boss, to four of his employees: "I'm really sorry, but I'm going to have to let one of you go."

Black employee: "I'm a protected minority."
Female employee: "And I'm a woman."
Oldest employee: "Fire me, buster, and I'll hit you with an age discrimination suit so fast it'll make your head spin."
They all turn to look at the helpless young, white, male employee, who thinks a moment, then responds: "I think I might be gay..."

Two women were comparing notes on the difficulties of running a small business.
"I started a new practice last year," the first one said. "I insist that each of my employees take at least a week off every three months."
"Why in the world would you do that?" the other asked.
She responded, "It's the best way I know of to learn which ones I can do without."

Summer is the time when it is too hot to do the jobs it was too cold to do in winter.

Employee's Ten Comandments

If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.
If you can't get your work done in the first 24 hours, work nights.
Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.
For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism.
Keep your boss's boss off your boss's back.
Success always occurs in private, and failure in full view.
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research.
The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up.
Don't be irreplaceable, if you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted.
If you are good, you will be assigned all the work. If you are really good, you will get out of it.

Hope that helped Shell! :x

as usual..you guys know best!

And to think I only joined TR to ask a question..(shame on me..wow that was ages ago)

For today I'm taking the easy way out..doubled up the dose of cold and flu med..i'm dying with my sinus's! (again)

Well, i'll reflect on all of this..i know i sell myself short a lot..I could probably do the manager position..not sure if i want the stress though..but i'll keep it in the maybe pile..

Off topic
JD..kid is going to visit dad for 2 weeks this month..so maybe i can relax a bit and maybe meet up with my old friend al cohol for a night or two