quotes from IRC
16:31 d "Much of the cruft results from C++'s attempt to be
backward compatible with C. Stroustrup himself has said in his
retrospective book The Design and Evolution of C++ (p. 207), "Within
C++, there is a much smaller and cleaner language struggling to get
16:32 me . . . and it's Objective-C.
16:32 me Actually, it's probably not.
16:33 d could be java.
16:33 T c# ?
16:33 d it is cleaner and smaller, just in the wrong ways...
16:33 * T awaits the flames
16:33 d C# is java with a different syntax...
16:34 T runtime is a bit different too
16:34 T although you could argue that the language is independent from the runtime
16:34 c c# is a little better lang wise than java
16:34 c but they still suck
the fact you have a language that runs in a virtual machine yet has
introspection slower than Smalltalk on 20 year old hardware says
16:35 T hehe, until last year washington mutual ran all their home loan software on a smalltalk app on os/2
16:36 d cool
16:37 T then they replaced it with a browser-based javaish frontend on top of MS xslt crap middleware on top of MS crap servers, spent
billions of dollars, and cut productivity down to 1/5 of what it was
16:38 d wow.
16:38 T amazing how a company like that can be so IT-stupid
16:40 me funny as hell, too
16:40 T funny if you don't work for them...
16:41 c verizon is trying to do the same
16:41 c but they havent been able to eliminate their mainframe dbs
16:41 c they cant duplicate the functionality
Of course, I blame Sun for all this. Java was a nifty idea, and some
good ideas were incorporated into it, but the truth of the matter is
that the implementations of Java that are actually advantageous are
quite limited. It's a "virtual machine"-based language, compiled to
"bytecode" that is then interpreted by a VM at runtime, which means
that execution is slow ? in some cases, slower even than languages that
use a traditional interpreter. In addition, much of the reason for
Java's failure to live up to expectations for WaMu, despite the fact
that Smalltalk is also a VM language, is that the JVM is basically
broken by design. I'm not as clear on the internals of the Java virtual
machine as some, but I know people whose judgment on the matter I trust
with nothing good to say about the JVM.
Much like Microsoft, though, Sun subscribes to the notion that
something new should be sold to everyone as a panacea. Thus, Java has
been put into use writing static platform applications, games, and even
server software. Server software! That's nuts. The whole point of Java
from the beginning was portability of client application code. What
advantages Java can provide are all best suited to client software in
unknown computing environments. For some reason, though, a language
whose implementation is anything but spry, combining the performance
and flexibility detriments of interpreted and compiled languages in one
single package, is being used for server-side dynamic webpages,
database management systems, server-side accounting software, and
everything else under the Sun. Speaking of that, I do blame Sun. Java
has been made a buzzword, and as a result it has been used in numerous
implementations that are entirely inappropriate for its use.
Java employs some C-like syntax and Smalltalk-like object oriented
structure, but manages to screw them both up; it is essentially what
Objective-C would be if designed by a marketing executive instead of a
mathematician ? broken, but capable of fairly portable code (just as
C++ is what Objective-C would be if designed by a computer scientist ?
broken, but at least a good performer). Of course, that portability can
as easily be achieved by use of framework libraries and good OOP
modularity rather than a virtual machine. You really can't fight hype,
Now, we've got .NET, which is a little closer to what Java should
have been. There's even a Java spin-off language called J# that'll run
on the .NET framework (which, despite the name, is really just a
glorified VM with extensions). .NET (and its non-MS implementations,
including Mono) is almost as limited in appropriate scope as Sun's
Java, but we can expect that it will be pushed as the next great
panacea. People will be trying to use it everywhere, for everything.
ASP.NET is in full swing now, for instance, despite the inadvisability
of running .NET server-side. What good is bytecode-compiled server-side
software, anyway? Either run something interpreted (or, even better,
compile-at-runtime), or just use a compiled language for better
. . . or, you can continue training for your career as a
Pointy-Haired Boss in the grand tradition of Dilbert's manager. Have
fun with that.
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