Discussion on:

bITs and blogs

Well said sir.

You refer to Jaqui as "her" and "she". You try to "spend" your points on something. You start a discussion on poor spelling, grammar, or typing.You haven't filled out your profile. 

OK, nighthawk , that was a great amendment
regarding Geek Trivia. It's painfully true. Private message me a
shipping address and you'll get a free TR mug. (Yet another example of
TechRepublic's painfully random approach to customer service.)

Woo hoo!! I don't use double exclamation points lightly, but I'm as excited as Homer Simpson upon finding out he just won free doughnuts. My very own "can't buy 'em because we don't sell 'em" TR mug!

Just for that, Jay, I'm giving you a personalized, one-of-a-kind "Get Out of Quibble Free" card, a gallon of prop wash, three yards of flightline, and an autographed photo of the Loch Ness monster.


Hey, random isn't bad if you're the one picking the seed for the generator.

Oh sure.  I do a discussion for "what new members should know" and people rip me. You turn around and to a noobling bash and get praise! There is no justice in the world........    = )Great read!  Smite the needful with the great club "ClueFinder".

Didn't you know, jdclyde? By definition, apotheon is right. Infallible, even.
Point me at this post of yours where people ripped into you. I vaguely remember such a thing, but I'd like to refresh my memory.

The writing of forum, discussion list, and blog post titles is another way to differentiate a newbie. Newbies write non-informative titles like "Got a question for ya", "Help", "Hi, I'm new here", "What does this mean?", and "This makes me so angry". Newbies forget or don't know that web users are (1) in a hurry, (2) impatient, (3) distracted by work or family or home (including television) environment, (4) self-centered, (5) goal oriented for a specific task, (6) not interested in playing games to try to figure out what the heck your topic actually is. Good topic titles are like good book chapter titles. They tell a reader at first glance exactly what the issue is. This topic title is very well composed, but "RSS insanity" is one of the weaker ones, being half specific (RSS) and half vague or meaningless (insanity). Now you may go pick apart my posts and snark me to death. ;^)

All these debates about newbies are getting out of hand. I will provide the One True Way to deal with the issue. Oh, and I'm completely unbiased . No, that's not my nose growing, rather its another area as im so excited discussing the issue!

Great idea for a new top ten list...you know that you are an LL (Linux Lamer) when...1. You make sure every forth sentence in your blogs have cuts to all things Microsoft...
When are you people going to stop playing your silly games and grow up to be techinical professionals? Many folks (working in IT) are primo geeky, but don't regard Operating system OS's as some sort of religion. Most technical professionals evalutate IT infrastructures on the basis of metrics such as TCO and operational viabity (ever heard of ITIL? Didn't think so.) Wow, you Linux bigots have it all figured out...everyone should should just use Linux. Simple. Here we were doing all that unnecessary thinking...
You go ahead and get real good with Linux. Next time I'm in town and the dry cleaners calls, you can go down and take care of their Linux box for me. Or maybe you can help one of my clients to edit a config file with VI in their applicance's IPSO. Plenty useful things for your knowledge. Meanwhile I have a plane to catch, enterprise architectures to design and implement. 
Wow, it occurs to me, this could be why some guys are IT wannabe lamers writing these blogs and some are Senior IT Consultants.

LOL, that's priceless Consultant-1.  You did mean that comment as an ironic joke, yes? 

This is more than just a TR newb thing.  Slightly refined, it can be called a universal Forum Newb list.
Besides, everyone knows that it's not Linux or Windows that is going to cause the world to end...  It will be the MacIntosh! ^_^

Scott,
I don't know what you are talking about OS2/Warp still reigns!

no 11 indicator = producing inane documents and comments like this

Thanks apotheon and contributors to educating us newbies; I hope I have not committed any of the aformentioned sins, but I will definitly adjust my awarness to such. And now I will go check my profile to see if anything important is missing!?!

I've got a few things for you to ponder, "Consultant-1":

It's funny how you react as though I'm the zealot with the axe to grind, and yet you invaded my
weblog to start spouting off in defense of your chosen OS, or at least
in offense to an OS you dislike. Perhaps I should have said "Operating
system OS's" [sic]. Next, you'll be saying "software programs" or
"softwares" or using some other common half-literate malformation of a
standard software industry term.
Nice name, "Consultant-1". consultant (n.): 1. gainfully unemployed
When dealing with clients/employers (I've had both ? yes, I've been
a consultant too), I give them the lowdown on technical and financial
considerations first, and other considerations only if there's time and
interest. Unlike you, apparently, I'm able to both be a professional
and have opinions outside the immediate, pressing concerns of the
profession.
People will be a lot nicer to you if you grow a sense of humor and
don't take everything personally. Why do you act so offended? I'm
guessing you didn't even understand the point about Tech Locksmith and
jdclyde, being something of a newbie yourself, and thought it was an
anti-Microsoft point.

JCitizen: Take it all with a grain of salt, and welcome to TR.

Are these the really the actions of newbies or the views of cliques? Only your hairdresser knows for sure, and you're soaking in it AGGHHHHHHHHHH Help! I'm trapped in a warp of the space-time continuum; it's 20 years ago and I'm getting a CAT scan from the scanning electron beams generated by the green phosphor generated text of a TTL monochrome monitor while following the very same topic on a bulletin board! Sports Action!, Ya gotta love it!

Props on the blog, I love how it went straight to my email. I look forward to more.-goes to fill out profile-

Glad you got all that off your chest.  Must feel wonderful to unload.  If much more space is devoted to the topic however, we all might slide back across the line - - heaven forbd it!

I'm tired of all those Linux users, especially Ms Jaqui, telling us that...Just kidding! Nice, way to go! I'll keep these hints in mind in order not to get unmasked as a newbie! Ten points for originallity, too!

Thanks Consultant-1,
I wondered what I was doing wrong; now with your great info I'll look for a OS to run windows ("but don't regard Operating system OS's as some sort of religion"). I can't tell you how much of a help you've been! "Or maybe you can help one of my clients to edit a config file with VI in their applicance's IPSO." Am I wrong or have I mistaken cli as well.

I agree with almost everything you've said.
However I feel what is missing is the flip side.
You've done an excellent job of pointing out where we are fallible, now go the other and point in the right direction.
How "Does" one ask a Linux question without inadvertently starting a war.? I am not being snarky here.
When I ask or disagree, I'm not looking for a fight, nor am I a zealot for either side, I just want the answer in order to clarify something.
Part of the problem is that too many times in the past, whenever someone would ask a question re Linux, it seemed like it was a heads up for going to war and some of the most vitriolic comments would emanate from the posts.
I am a Windows XPPro user who has been musing the idea of getting involved with Linux, however, naturally I am reluctant to ask as it might be misinterpreted and the first thing you know, I have an argument on my hands instead of an intelligent back and forth conversation.
As previously stated, you've done an excellent job, now lead us down the right track. You've told us what we do wrong fair enough, now tell us what can we do right. This would be most helpful.
You would be doing us a favor by telling us how to act appropriately so as not to offend. I am serious here.
And I'm sorry, but I' too have been a member for a very long time, and, Jacky is male, Jackie,Jacki etc are "usually", female so I must confess that for all of this time, I thought Jacki was a female. Now I feel like a damn fool.
My apologies Jacki.
Excellent Blog
Thank you
Warmest Regards
Aaron 

I'm a newbie (Feb 2006) and I've committed some of the above mentioned crimes. I've posted Tech Q&A in Discussion Forums (only because I couldn't figure out how to post a Tech. Q&A) and my profile isn't filled out. But I have to agree with Aaron.
Why do you either have to be a Linux or a MS user? Why can't you be both or at least respect the others position? I am 22 years old and will barely have my first degree in June (A.S. in Computer Networks) so that should explain my ignorance but it is a serious question. It's hard to find good technical websites and I like TR. In the hacker (not cracker) community MS is bashed because it is closed source and because of its "vulnerabilities" but in the corporate world it's the OS the majority of companies use so an IT professional should know it's capabilities and limits. It's really not a choice in the corporate world because most people are used to Word, Excel, and Outlook and aren't willing to move into openoffice.
Those are just my thoughts and I will probably receive alot of criticism but I am trying to understand the real IT world and am open to criticism.
The Newbie

How much time is considered for a TR newbie not to be a newbie anymore. When is a newbie not a newbie? I still see myself as a newbie and if I am, how to do I upgrade *laughing*....*looking for the divide in the road*

to Aaron and Joshua
Believe it or not, it's easy to ask a question relating to Linux that isn't a troll for a flame war. The problem is that it's difficult to keep the trolls out of the discussion. The same goes for Windows-related discussions.
Reasonable Linux users have a tendency to want to correct misconceptions. This means that when someone makes an ignorant comparison between Linux and Windows from a Windows perspective, they tend to respond. Sometimes the tone can be harsh, but the intent is usually honorable. There are exceptions, of course: the Linux community has its trolls just like every other major online community.
Because Windows users tend to view Windows as the "default", any mention of Linux is likely to catch their attention as being out of the ordinary. Mentioning Linux can get one attacked for being "off topic", can get defensive Windows users counterattacking when there really wasn't any "attack" intended in the first place, and so on. Additionally, there are people like rickk, who just seem to thrive on strife and have a clear favorite OS, so they go around agitating while playing innocent.
Meanwhile, many Linux users, aware that most Windows users never consider any non-Windows solution without having it force-fed to them because it's just not the "default", will mention Linux as a potential solution to a Windows problem when it seems appropriate. This often gets mistaken for trolling, and again, the flame war is off.
Then, of course, there are the genuine Linux trolls. They do exist. I've seen a couple here at TR though, frankly, I've seen more Windows trolls that stick around for more than one or two posts.
Just understand the mindsets of the people you're addressing, and understand that on both sides of the line there's something of a siege mentality. Windows users feel insulted when "their" OS is denigrated in any way, and Linux users feel like there's just no way to say anything to a Windows user without getting accused of zealotry.
If you can construct your questions so that they avoid hitting the sore spots on both sides, you can stave off flame wars for a reasonable period. Of course, the trolls do eventually find the discussions most of the time, but maybe you can get some real discussion done before that point.
Truthfully, if you want information about Linux without FUD, flak, and a free-for-all, the easiest way to get it is to ask in a place where Windows advocacy is considered something of a faux pas. Also, of course, follow Eric Raymond's advice on asking questions intelligently . The Linux community tends to be very friendly and helpful when you ask questions intelligently and leave your biases at the door. If you come into a LUG meeting and say "I'm a complete Linux newbie, I've been using Windows for fifteen years, and I want to learn how to do this stuff — please help," I'd bet money someone will offer to give up a weekend, or equivalently bend over backwards, just to give you a helping hand. Almost every single Linux expert I've seen at TR allows complete strangers to contact them through their profiles and has, at one time or another, said in a discussion something to the effect of "If you, or anyone else, want to contact me directly for more information, please feel free."
One big piece of advice, though: Don't ever say something like "Well, crap, this is so much easier in Windows! Why can't Linux just do this like Windows does?" The truth of the matter is that when Linux does something differently from the way Windows does it, there's generally a Very Good Reason, and asking a question that implies Linux is "broken" like that is going to touch on Linux users' "Windows Persecution" instincts. You'll find yourself on the receiving end of an in-depth explanation of why Linux isn't Windows, why your question isn't the brightest one you could have asked, and maybe a "Go use Windows, then!" instead of a helpful answer. The reason, of course, is that you didn't ask a helpful question. You complained, and you blamed Linux for your lack of understanding.
Here's another important link for you: Linux is Not Windows . I recommend you read it before you start asking, or commenting, about how Linux is "harder" than Windows, or something to that effect.
Oh, and if you have any questions you want to ask off the discussions: feel free to use that link on my profile for contacting me directly. I've ignored a couple requests in the past when they were essentially incomprehensible, or were clearly a case of someone wanting me to do homework for them, but I help people when I can, even if it's not a Linux-related question (though sometimes my help consists of a link or some ideas for how to search Google for help). Hell, I helped someone set up a Windows system for data security via private email from TR not too long ago. I may not like Windows or Microsoft, but that doesn't mean I'll tell you where to stick it if you want a little help with something.

... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

"If you come into a LUG meeting and say "I'm a complete Linux newbie,
I've been using Windows for fifteen years, and I want to learn how to
do this stuff ? please help,"" or even: "looking for an AMD Duron: 1-1.4 GHz would be nice, to pop in a MS-6340M from MSI. Any out there that
people are willing to part with for a reasonable price?"

the reply: "I have a Duron @ 700 MHz kicking around. I recently ran it, and it
wasn't stable when it reached a temp of 42 C, but I'm not sure if it's
the CPU or the board it was on that was the cause of the instability.

I also have a 600 MHz celeron kicking around.

either or both are free to anyone that wants them." from local LUG mailing list.

Hi all and everyone,
 
I am also a newbie of sorts.  newbie to TR, but not to forums concerning all things IT.  Alot of times, we newbies do make some silly mistakes, do to being in a rush, or just not pressing the shortcut key for the spell checker(windows based pc's). I am a user that uses or trys to use both OS's and I dont prefer on over the other, it is just a matter of using the one that is best suited for the work that is needed to be done.  and also, you should never assume a person's gender due to their nick.  you might end up with a nasty surprise.
 
viper

Some newbie advice from a TR newbie.
Another mistake that newbies make when entering a new discussion (no matter what forum) is the assumption of familiarity.  Somebody that has been part of that particular community can get away with making a statement that a newbie will get totally thrashed for making.  This is because the "long timer" has made statements in the past which moderate the apparent underlying opinion of this new statement.  The other long timers will already know what each other mean.  All too often, newbies only join in to vent their emotionally (not technically) biased point of view without any regard for the thought that went into the long-timer's point.
Oddly enough, it can also be easy to start an argument by agreeing with somebody too emphatically.  They may have been conceding a minor point to opposition or actually saying the opposite of what they meant (using irony).  This would be the example of not reading carefully.
PLEASE watch your language.  It sounds trite but there are a lot of professionals here that have been in the field since before computers could fit inside a small room.  Try to phrase your responses or questions as if you were speaking to a respected member of the community.  Don't try to match them in tone, they have probably earned the right to speak frankly in the forum.  You have not.
In a forum YOU ARE WHAT YOU SAY.  Nobody knows what you look like or the sound of your voice or where you pause in the sentence.  We only know you by the words you choose, the words you don't spell correctly, the grammer you butcher and how much your writing looks like song titles on a Prince (TAFKAP?) album.
You could probably find these and other very useful points in jdclyde's post (mentioned earlier in this thread) but since I am a newbie to TR, I didn't know where to find it. 
And just to add a philosophical note that won't make much sense in this context: Don't assume that knowing how to do something means you have any better grasp of why you should (or should not) do it.

I am a newbie to TR, but not to forums. One of the really neat features that I have found on most sites is "Search". I generally attempt to find an answer by searching the forum first, then ask questions if it yields no results. I do this for two reasons:

I am in a hurry, and I find that using a search engine with the broadest of terms will sometimes yield up the answer I am seeking.
I can reduce the times when I am singled out for scorn for not reading the previous postings.
Also, I have found that with all but the crudest of forum engines, I have the ability to modify my original posting or to remove it completely. I try to maintain my own postings if:

I find that the answer is worded in some obscure way in another thread
I later find the answer to my question through external research.
If I have no responses to my question, and I find the information in another thread, I will attempt to remove my posting (why start a new thread on an already answered question). If I cannot remove my posting, then I will respond to my posting and attempt to point anyone who reads the thread to the answer in the other thread.
If I find the answer externally, I will usually post an answer to my question. I figure that if I ask the question, then someone else will also be looking for the answer at some time. Why not help them out by giving them the answer.
But, then again, I am a newbie ?

Apotheon & Co.
Just found the blog - sorry for the late post.  Thank you, everyone, for such a delightful topic/blog ( even Consultant 1).  I am a confessed n00b in many different areas of tech, not just blogging, but hope I am catching on ok .  As I went down your list checking off the ones I'm guilty of with WhiteOut...(it's only thing I can make check marks with on the screen), I found that I may have been the culprit of some.  You didn't actually use just MY posts to make your list did you?  Just checking!  Of course now I have to do a search for blogs also mentioned here so I can really bone up. 
Thanks for the humor.  I just try to remember..."if you can't laugh at yourself, there will always be plenty who will".
Now, off to search for the jdclyde blog - what nu members should NO...
Thanks again.

This all seems a little intimidating. Although I've been coming to TR for over five years, I have submitted very few posts to the TR forums. After reading through the top ten, it makes me more apprehensive about ever asking a question lest in my ignorance I might offend someone.
I understand some of the points you have made, but not all, and based on the tone of your top ten list, I'm afraid to ask what some of these mean, lest I be flamed for not knowing!

PapaWhiskey: Don't worry about it. This list of indicators was meant to be somewhat tongue in cheek anyway. All you really have to remember, about almost any online community, is that until you're a long-time participant that is well-known and you know the nuances of the community, you should avoid making any assumptions. Don't assume you know someone's personality or level of knowledge without long exposure to the person, or long exposure to the community to the point that you know this person is new and can't possibly know what (s)he is talking aobut. Don't assume you have the solution to everyone else's problem without having interacted with them enough to understand where they're coming from. Don't always assume that your brilliant insight hasn't already been seen and adressed many times. Et cetera.
The truth is, there's nothing wrong with being a "newbie". Just don't act like you know better than everyone else while you are a newbie — whether it's a newbie to the community or just to active participation in it. Usually, a good rule of thumb is to ask questions for a while before making statements, when questions are appropriate.
I always try to get the lay of the land a bit in a new community before I start asserting myself. I ease my way in by commenting on those things with which I agree and questioning those things with which I don't agree, rather than making bold statements myself and bold denouncements of someone else. That is, I do so at first: as many of my posts at TR must make clear, I eventually start making bold statements and denouncements when I'm sure I understand the context.
It all comes back to assumptions. Avoid them where possible, and think about everything you see before reacting, because you might discover that you're making an assumption.
For instance, with point one in the list, if you say "Firefox is only safer than IE because it's not as popular!" you're going to get your ass handed to you by someone more versed in principles of software security — or even by someone who has just been reading what is posted by others more versed in software security. On the other hand, if you ask "Isn't at least some of IE's insecurity compared with Firefox due to its widespread use?" then you'll likely get a kinder, more helpful response, complete with an explanation for why that's an at least partly fallacious bit of reasoning, so that you'll know more what you're talking about in the future.
Seriously, don't worry about asking questions — as long as your "questions" aren't just thinly veiled attacks, of course.

thanks for the links apotheon
I have been really impressed with TR and how the "senior" or more active members are kind to the newbies. I hope to learn from alot from this community and already have. Hopefully in the future I'll be able to make some contributions to other members and newbies.

is this you?
 
http://www.twsbiz.com/twbiz/industrynews/article/0,21214,1102369,00.html
 
 

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(Donate to SETI@home at http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/donate.php)
Dear apotheon,
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