Discussions

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maxwell edison
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    dawgit

    The Demon's-crats know what to do? Since when? Take that money she said... Is the US going to 'Nationize' the whole Oil Industry? I thought that was being done somewhere else, like South America, or Africa, Or the Middle East, but in America? I can't wait untill that comes back to bit her in the heat of the elections.

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    drowningnotwaving

    God I love democracy!

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    maxwell edison

    We have a Constitutional Republic.

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    onbliss

    You understood what he meant :-)

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    maxwell edison

    And it meant to suggest a common misconception. How many people couldn't tell the difference between the two? Too many. And how many people would get "that question" wrong? Again, too many. And that's a problem.

    There IS a difference, and people should recognize it if they claim to understand it.

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    onbliss

    ...you are bored with all those new members :-). You are looking for a good discussion.

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    maxwell edison

    I don't get involved in those other discussions with all those other "new members".

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    maxwell edison

    I said ignore!

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    NickNielsen Moderator

    .

    Edit: stupid emoticon!

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    maxwell edison

    @@@@@@@@@@

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    drowningnotwaving

    but you're right - he is an idiot.

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    TonytheTiger

    "Intelligence test for voting rights initiative" passes. :)

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    drowningnotwaving

    I'd be out. And that's not bad for the average, I'm sure. :)

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    Tony Hopkinson

    ROFL

    No actually I wouldn't do something that dumb.

    Tax incentives for greener energy and a lot harsher penalties for pollution would be my way forward.

    Trying to direct the economy doesn't often work, trying to control it, never works out.

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    Michael Jay

    I think she is talking communism, take from all that have and give to those who do not.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    So this can't be it, it is certainly communism in say the way the USSR applied it.
    Doomed from the get go.

    Nobody is going to see stuff that they feels is theirs being taken off them as fair.

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    NickNielsen Moderator

    Unfortunately the "arts" disappeared some time ago...

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    sn53

    "I want to take those profits, and I want to put them into a strategic energy fund..."
    -- Hillary Marx

    What makes Hillary different from any other Democrat? Is it a matter of degree only? Is she just a bit more socialist that the rest of them?

    What do the Democrats say? "From each according to his abilities. To each according to his needs." And, of course, the Democratic Party will determine how much each owes and how much each gets. This sounds like a pretty sweet deal if they can only keep fooling 51% of the people. Since the US Constitution means only what the Supreme Court says it means it is no longer ane effective brake on the accumulation of power by the Federal government.

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    karmashock

    Ever wonder why third world countries become second world countries and then within 10 years are third world countries again?

    Typically it's because their governments steal from companies that invested in them in the first place.

    Lets walk through this real quick... poor country begs for foreign investment, gets it, starts to do well, government sees all that money and gets greedy, confiscates money/nationalizes all their assets (sometimes paid for often not entirely), companies leave (along with the professionals that ran them), country goes bankrupt again, currency crashes as the government tries to print it's way out of debt, everyone that had their money in that currency is now broke along with the country... it stays that way for 15 to 20 years and then begs for foreign investment again... rinse and repeat. They're bloodsucking thieves.

    Miss Clinton doesn't understand that the consequence of taking this money away by fiat will only accomplish a further rise in gas prices. All this will do is cause the companies to do less business in the US or otherwise protect their assets. In the end her confiscation of private property will only create a high de facto gas tax in which she takes money away from the gas company and it therefore either takes more from us or produces MUCH less gas. Either way the prices will rise about the same...

    Point: She can't get this money without screwing over the people she presumes to help. What's more many Americans own stocks these days... I personally benefited from the oil profits as a shareholder... and I'm no where near rich. What's more even people that don't own stocks benefit. When stocks are healthy it means it's easier to get loans, pension programs are healthier, and there's generally more hiring. The US has low unemployment because most states have some understanding of economics. Ignore this kind of stuff and your unemployment will go north of 15 percent in no time... or about 3 times higher then it is now.

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    TheChas

    Congress does have the power of taxation.

    The way the energy companies have been building up profits from the current high price of oil is every bit as obscene as it was back in the 70's.

    It's like the oil companies are challenging Congress to reinstate the Windfall Profits Tax.

    While Congress is at it, I think it is time to take a "serious" look at CEO and executive compensation. Since the CEOs and corporate boards aren't willing to control compensation packages, it is time for some penalty taxes on excessive compensation and golden parachute plans.

    An excellent example of compensation run amok is what happened at Home Depot. Most of us would be set for life, and willingly walk away from our jobs for even 10% of what that thieving CEO got. Heck, I seriously consider quitting the work force for 1% of what he got.

    If companies are not willing to control themselves, the people (in the form of government) have a right to step in.

    Chas

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    maxwell edison

    You're an admitted socialist.

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    TheChas

    Max,

    There you go again with applying labels.

    I don't believe that I am anywhere near as far left of center as you are to the right of center.

    If we truly had free market capitalism in the US, obscene profits and compensation would not be a problem as companies would not be competitive in the market.

    But, we are fast approaching a full economic oligarchy.

    What we need is a President along the lines of Teddy Roosevelt with a Robert Kennedy Attorney General to bust up the corporate conglomerates and bring competition back into the mix.

    Chas

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    maxwell edison

    You had your relevation (or whatever you called it at the time) that espoused a socialist society. Do you deny it?

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    maxwell edison

    because

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    toto

    ....don't let the door hit you in the ____ on the way out. (I can't be offensive, here, you know.)"

    "When are people around here are going to quit stroking his emotional need to be accepted and liked? Go lay on a couch somewhere, is what I say."

    "... and the next thing you should invest in is a clue."

    It is understandable that people would find parallels between the story of Maxwell Edison and the Manson murders.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_Silver_Hammer

    "There's much more to this. . . . ....than meets the eye, at least your eye."

    "You're arrogant, pompous and smug judgmental attitude is absolutely sickening."

    "What a first-class ***! "

    "Get out of my life."


    "Stop presuming that you know what's better for me than me.

    Stop telling me how to live.

    Stop telling me how to define my moral values.

    Stop telling me how to plan for my own future.

    Stop telling me how to raise my kids.

    Stop telling me how to educate my kids.

    Stop taking my hard-earned income.

    Stop trying to take care of my own health.

    Stop telling me how to run my own business.

    Stop telling me how to live.

    Just GO AWAY!"

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    karmashock

    You believe that you have the right to take away the profits of any company if they're really good?

    Well, great... no company in the country then will every enter into an arrangement that makes "too much money" then... Economies are like ecosystems. Look at plants in nature that get eaten by lots of herbivorous... they all have coping strategies... some grow out of the animal's reach... some develop a bitter taste... some become poisonous... others develop thorns. There is a reaction. You're not seeing the reaction. What's more the worst reaction will be ONE that the price of oil will GO WAY WAY WAY up because you stole their money like a thief... and second there will probably be less oil to go around because they know you're not an honorable country.


    Think back to the 70's again... if you want gas shortages... long lines at the pump and MUCH higher gas prices... then do exactly what you're suggesting. It'll happen like clockwork.

    As to home depot do you honestly think you're entitled to so much as 1 percent of what that executive made? Why? At what point did you ever do anything that valuable for the company? At what point did they say you were entitled to that?

    See companies give huge bonuses like that to their executives because they have to keep them running the company. Just like they have to pay the average guy walking around HD between 7 and 10 dollars an hour to keep them working.

    If you want to share in corporate profits THEN BUY STOCK! That's what it's there for. What's more because you're an employee I bet they'll give you employee discounts. One of my friends used to work for Staples and at an entry level worker he got great stock options. That's free money because they sell you the stock below market cost. You just have to hold on it for about 6 months to a year and then cash in...


    See the thing is this, you're not entitled to profits you didn't generate. You... unless you're very high up in HD are unlikely to be worth even 1 percent of what that CEO is to the company. So don't be surprised when they don't pay you that. What is it ultimately that drives you to demand things you don't deserve? Is it that you somehow think you do deserve it... or are you just envious of what others have? Are the kind of guy that looks at a nice car and says "nice car, if I work hard I'll have one too if I want"... or are you the kind of guy that thinks "what a rich jerk".

    Because if you don't respect wealth it will go away... go to Detroit if you want to see what treating business like garbage gets you.

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    TheChas

    Check your history.

    The windfall profits tax was not a cause of the 70's energy crisis, but a reaction to the excessive profits the oil companies made off of energy price increases.

    Interestingly, the long lines and closed stations were limited to areas that would feel the greatest impact. The area of Michigan where I lived at the time only saw the price increases.

    In case you don't remember, the cause of the 70's energy crisis was an oil embargo on the US by OPEC. The oil companies profited quite well while the US public suffered. The recession and "stagflation" that followed were in part because the US automakers were not able to shift from building large gas guzzlers to smaller more efficient cars fast enough. Once car buyers discovered how well the Japanese cars were built, the US auto industry was in big trouble.

    You also need to check the details of the Home Depot CEO situation better. The board felt that the CEO was doing a poor job and bringing the stock down. They essentially paid the guy over 100 Million to quit so they did not have to go through a prolonged battle to fire him.

    Chas

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    karmashock

    There's nothing wrong with my statement.

    If you read my post carefully then you'd see that I was not making the claim that taxes caused the shortage in the 70s. What I was claiming is that it would cause something similar to happen again. Stealing from a business tends to have that kind of result. Why do you think people are starving in Africa? Africa has some of the best farm land in the world. It's because you get your land taken away from you if you improve on it. Warlords or friends of corrupt politicians take your land if it's really sweet. So people make a point of never making it very sweet. That's what you'll get. Take huge amounts of people's money just because they did well and you'll find that they stop making the effort.


    A tax like Hillary is proposing is on balance a cap on gas prices. Think back to your high school economics... what happens when you freeze demand (price paid is demand)?

    Supply goes down or freezes too.

    That is what I meant when I said it's like clockwork. It's as certain to happen as gravity. This is literally something that high school education should have make Hillary aware of... that she isn't frankly demonstrate the typical socialist contempt/indifference for the study of economics. Which is really one of the most inexcusable aspects of that political belief system. Anyone in this day and age that completely dismisses an entire field of study can't be taken seriously on that subject. This goes for everyone... fundementalist religious groups have no credibility when it comes to history, astronomy, or biology (perhaps more). It's inexcusable to be willfully ignorant of such subjects.

    As to home depot, that's unfortunate but that still isn't a reason for anyone else to get money. All I would say is that he should leave or be gotten rid of somehow. Apparently the board found that to be best way to do it.

    I don't know if it's the best way... but that has nothing to do with you or any other home depot employee getting money. What you're telling me is that it was bribe money to go away... that just doesn't relate to anything else.

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    sn53

    You said, "If companies are not willing to control themselves, the people (in the form of government) have a right to step in."

    I made a mistake. I thought you were Chas. I see you are really a totalitarian thug, Mr. Chavez. Please accept my apologies for not recognizing you sooner.

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    NickNielsen Moderator

    First, concerning "obscene" profits, some questions. How much profit is "obscene?" Who decides? And how? And what gives anybody the right to take the results of my work? If you take my profit, my first response is to raise my prices so I can get some of that profit back. My second response is to stop trying to make a profit, since I know it will be taken from me; I have lost my incentive to produce because I receive no reward for doing so. The Soviets conducted a 75-year experiment with a variation of this type of economy. Study the results.

    Second, concerning executive compensation, why should Congress get involved? Again, who decides what is excessive and how do they decide? If executive compensation gets too far out of hand, shareholders will step in (and have done so) or CEOs will price themselves (or their companies) out of the market. Either way the problem solves itself.

    Let government run government and business run business. Examine your post-WW2 European history: Almost all of Europe had large national monopolies in telecommunications and industry. Many of those monopolies have been privatized and now face competition. Those that could adapt and compete have survived, those that couldn't usually haven't. Even the remaining monopolies are (except in France) more efficient and responsive to the consumer. In almost all cases the consumer is better off.

    The business of government is not business. The social democrats in Europe have, for the most part, learned that lesson. It's a pity we have yet to learn it here in America.

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    dawgit

    The Demon's-crats know what to do? Since when? Take that money she said... Is the US going to 'Nationize' the whole Oil Industry? I thought that was being done somewhere else, like South America, or Africa, Or the Middle East, but in America? I can't wait untill that comes back to bit her in the heat of the elections.

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    drowningnotwaving

    God I love democracy!

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    maxwell edison

    We have a Constitutional Republic.

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    onbliss

    You understood what he meant :-)

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    maxwell edison

    And it meant to suggest a common misconception. How many people couldn't tell the difference between the two? Too many. And how many people would get "that question" wrong? Again, too many. And that's a problem.

    There IS a difference, and people should recognize it if they claim to understand it.

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    onbliss

    ...you are bored with all those new members :-). You are looking for a good discussion.

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    maxwell edison

    I don't get involved in those other discussions with all those other "new members".

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    maxwell edison

    I said ignore!

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    NickNielsen Moderator

    .

    Edit: stupid emoticon!

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    maxwell edison

    @@@@@@@@@@

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    drowningnotwaving

    but you're right - he is an idiot.

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    TonytheTiger

    "Intelligence test for voting rights initiative" passes. :)

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    drowningnotwaving

    I'd be out. And that's not bad for the average, I'm sure. :)

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    Tony Hopkinson

    ROFL

    No actually I wouldn't do something that dumb.

    Tax incentives for greener energy and a lot harsher penalties for pollution would be my way forward.

    Trying to direct the economy doesn't often work, trying to control it, never works out.

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    Michael Jay

    I think she is talking communism, take from all that have and give to those who do not.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    So this can't be it, it is certainly communism in say the way the USSR applied it.
    Doomed from the get go.

    Nobody is going to see stuff that they feels is theirs being taken off them as fair.

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    NickNielsen Moderator

    Unfortunately the "arts" disappeared some time ago...

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    sn53

    "I want to take those profits, and I want to put them into a strategic energy fund..."
    -- Hillary Marx

    What makes Hillary different from any other Democrat? Is it a matter of degree only? Is she just a bit more socialist that the rest of them?

    What do the Democrats say? "From each according to his abilities. To each according to his needs." And, of course, the Democratic Party will determine how much each owes and how much each gets. This sounds like a pretty sweet deal if they can only keep fooling 51% of the people. Since the US Constitution means only what the Supreme Court says it means it is no longer ane effective brake on the accumulation of power by the Federal government.

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    0 Votes
    karmashock

    Ever wonder why third world countries become second world countries and then within 10 years are third world countries again?

    Typically it's because their governments steal from companies that invested in them in the first place.

    Lets walk through this real quick... poor country begs for foreign investment, gets it, starts to do well, government sees all that money and gets greedy, confiscates money/nationalizes all their assets (sometimes paid for often not entirely), companies leave (along with the professionals that ran them), country goes bankrupt again, currency crashes as the government tries to print it's way out of debt, everyone that had their money in that currency is now broke along with the country... it stays that way for 15 to 20 years and then begs for foreign investment again... rinse and repeat. They're bloodsucking thieves.

    Miss Clinton doesn't understand that the consequence of taking this money away by fiat will only accomplish a further rise in gas prices. All this will do is cause the companies to do less business in the US or otherwise protect their assets. In the end her confiscation of private property will only create a high de facto gas tax in which she takes money away from the gas company and it therefore either takes more from us or produces MUCH less gas. Either way the prices will rise about the same...

    Point: She can't get this money without screwing over the people she presumes to help. What's more many Americans own stocks these days... I personally benefited from the oil profits as a shareholder... and I'm no where near rich. What's more even people that don't own stocks benefit. When stocks are healthy it means it's easier to get loans, pension programs are healthier, and there's generally more hiring. The US has low unemployment because most states have some understanding of economics. Ignore this kind of stuff and your unemployment will go north of 15 percent in no time... or about 3 times higher then it is now.

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    TheChas

    Congress does have the power of taxation.

    The way the energy companies have been building up profits from the current high price of oil is every bit as obscene as it was back in the 70's.

    It's like the oil companies are challenging Congress to reinstate the Windfall Profits Tax.

    While Congress is at it, I think it is time to take a "serious" look at CEO and executive compensation. Since the CEOs and corporate boards aren't willing to control compensation packages, it is time for some penalty taxes on excessive compensation and golden parachute plans.

    An excellent example of compensation run amok is what happened at Home Depot. Most of us would be set for life, and willingly walk away from our jobs for even 10% of what that thieving CEO got. Heck, I seriously consider quitting the work force for 1% of what he got.

    If companies are not willing to control themselves, the people (in the form of government) have a right to step in.

    Chas

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    maxwell edison

    You're an admitted socialist.

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    TheChas

    Max,

    There you go again with applying labels.

    I don't believe that I am anywhere near as far left of center as you are to the right of center.

    If we truly had free market capitalism in the US, obscene profits and compensation would not be a problem as companies would not be competitive in the market.

    But, we are fast approaching a full economic oligarchy.

    What we need is a President along the lines of Teddy Roosevelt with a Robert Kennedy Attorney General to bust up the corporate conglomerates and bring competition back into the mix.

    Chas

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    maxwell edison

    You had your relevation (or whatever you called it at the time) that espoused a socialist society. Do you deny it?

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    maxwell edison

    because

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    toto

    ....don't let the door hit you in the ____ on the way out. (I can't be offensive, here, you know.)"

    "When are people around here are going to quit stroking his emotional need to be accepted and liked? Go lay on a couch somewhere, is what I say."

    "... and the next thing you should invest in is a clue."

    It is understandable that people would find parallels between the story of Maxwell Edison and the Manson murders.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_Silver_Hammer

    "There's much more to this. . . . ....than meets the eye, at least your eye."

    "You're arrogant, pompous and smug judgmental attitude is absolutely sickening."

    "What a first-class ***! "

    "Get out of my life."


    "Stop presuming that you know what's better for me than me.

    Stop telling me how to live.

    Stop telling me how to define my moral values.

    Stop telling me how to plan for my own future.

    Stop telling me how to raise my kids.

    Stop telling me how to educate my kids.

    Stop taking my hard-earned income.

    Stop trying to take care of my own health.

    Stop telling me how to run my own business.

    Stop telling me how to live.

    Just GO AWAY!"

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    0 Votes
    karmashock

    You believe that you have the right to take away the profits of any company if they're really good?

    Well, great... no company in the country then will every enter into an arrangement that makes "too much money" then... Economies are like ecosystems. Look at plants in nature that get eaten by lots of herbivorous... they all have coping strategies... some grow out of the animal's reach... some develop a bitter taste... some become poisonous... others develop thorns. There is a reaction. You're not seeing the reaction. What's more the worst reaction will be ONE that the price of oil will GO WAY WAY WAY up because you stole their money like a thief... and second there will probably be less oil to go around because they know you're not an honorable country.


    Think back to the 70's again... if you want gas shortages... long lines at the pump and MUCH higher gas prices... then do exactly what you're suggesting. It'll happen like clockwork.

    As to home depot do you honestly think you're entitled to so much as 1 percent of what that executive made? Why? At what point did you ever do anything that valuable for the company? At what point did they say you were entitled to that?

    See companies give huge bonuses like that to their executives because they have to keep them running the company. Just like they have to pay the average guy walking around HD between 7 and 10 dollars an hour to keep them working.

    If you want to share in corporate profits THEN BUY STOCK! That's what it's there for. What's more because you're an employee I bet they'll give you employee discounts. One of my friends used to work for Staples and at an entry level worker he got great stock options. That's free money because they sell you the stock below market cost. You just have to hold on it for about 6 months to a year and then cash in...


    See the thing is this, you're not entitled to profits you didn't generate. You... unless you're very high up in HD are unlikely to be worth even 1 percent of what that CEO is to the company. So don't be surprised when they don't pay you that. What is it ultimately that drives you to demand things you don't deserve? Is it that you somehow think you do deserve it... or are you just envious of what others have? Are the kind of guy that looks at a nice car and says "nice car, if I work hard I'll have one too if I want"... or are you the kind of guy that thinks "what a rich jerk".

    Because if you don't respect wealth it will go away... go to Detroit if you want to see what treating business like garbage gets you.

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    0 Votes
    TheChas

    Check your history.

    The windfall profits tax was not a cause of the 70's energy crisis, but a reaction to the excessive profits the oil companies made off of energy price increases.

    Interestingly, the long lines and closed stations were limited to areas that would feel the greatest impact. The area of Michigan where I lived at the time only saw the price increases.

    In case you don't remember, the cause of the 70's energy crisis was an oil embargo on the US by OPEC. The oil companies profited quite well while the US public suffered. The recession and "stagflation" that followed were in part because the US automakers were not able to shift from building large gas guzzlers to smaller more efficient cars fast enough. Once car buyers discovered how well the Japanese cars were built, the US auto industry was in big trouble.

    You also need to check the details of the Home Depot CEO situation better. The board felt that the CEO was doing a poor job and bringing the stock down. They essentially paid the guy over 100 Million to quit so they did not have to go through a prolonged battle to fire him.

    Chas

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    0 Votes
    karmashock

    There's nothing wrong with my statement.

    If you read my post carefully then you'd see that I was not making the claim that taxes caused the shortage in the 70s. What I was claiming is that it would cause something similar to happen again. Stealing from a business tends to have that kind of result. Why do you think people are starving in Africa? Africa has some of the best farm land in the world. It's because you get your land taken away from you if you improve on it. Warlords or friends of corrupt politicians take your land if it's really sweet. So people make a point of never making it very sweet. That's what you'll get. Take huge amounts of people's money just because they did well and you'll find that they stop making the effort.


    A tax like Hillary is proposing is on balance a cap on gas prices. Think back to your high school economics... what happens when you freeze demand (price paid is demand)?

    Supply goes down or freezes too.

    That is what I meant when I said it's like clockwork. It's as certain to happen as gravity. This is literally something that high school education should have make Hillary aware of... that she isn't frankly demonstrate the typical socialist contempt/indifference for the study of economics. Which is really one of the most inexcusable aspects of that political belief system. Anyone in this day and age that completely dismisses an entire field of study can't be taken seriously on that subject. This goes for everyone... fundementalist religious groups have no credibility when it comes to history, astronomy, or biology (perhaps more). It's inexcusable to be willfully ignorant of such subjects.

    As to home depot, that's unfortunate but that still isn't a reason for anyone else to get money. All I would say is that he should leave or be gotten rid of somehow. Apparently the board found that to be best way to do it.

    I don't know if it's the best way... but that has nothing to do with you or any other home depot employee getting money. What you're telling me is that it was bribe money to go away... that just doesn't relate to anything else.

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    sn53

    You said, "If companies are not willing to control themselves, the people (in the form of government) have a right to step in."

    I made a mistake. I thought you were Chas. I see you are really a totalitarian thug, Mr. Chavez. Please accept my apologies for not recognizing you sooner.

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    NickNielsen Moderator

    First, concerning "obscene" profits, some questions. How much profit is "obscene?" Who decides? And how? And what gives anybody the right to take the results of my work? If you take my profit, my first response is to raise my prices so I can get some of that profit back. My second response is to stop trying to make a profit, since I know it will be taken from me; I have lost my incentive to produce because I receive no reward for doing so. The Soviets conducted a 75-year experiment with a variation of this type of economy. Study the results.

    Second, concerning executive compensation, why should Congress get involved? Again, who decides what is excessive and how do they decide? If executive compensation gets too far out of hand, shareholders will step in (and have done so) or CEOs will price themselves (or their companies) out of the market. Either way the problem solves itself.

    Let government run government and business run business. Examine your post-WW2 European history: Almost all of Europe had large national monopolies in telecommunications and industry. Many of those monopolies have been privatized and now face competition. Those that could adapt and compete have survived, those that couldn't usually haven't. Even the remaining monopolies are (except in France) more efficient and responsive to the consumer. In almost all cases the consumer is better off.

    The business of government is not business. The social democrats in Europe have, for the most part, learned that lesson. It's a pity we have yet to learn it here in America.