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1 Way That Linux is an Epic Fail

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The #1 way that Linux has traditionally been an epic fail is that the Distro Du Jour of the week, month, or year creates all of this hype around it – in particular, among the more irresponsible fanboy Linux journalists. Inevitably, this hype proposes that this may be the week, month, year, decade, century, epoch or whatever when Linux will finally replace Windows.

In the past it has been any number of distros – most notably RedHat. Currently, the Linux golden child is Ubuntu – the “It Just Works” Linux. That is the Linux I’ve been working with the most – for several months now. At one point, I had the broad, over-reaching and in hindsight, clearly unrealistic goal of using Ubuntu exclusively in my daily life for at least a 2 week period. I suppose if I were a Linux journalist who ONLY wrote pro-Linux screeds that were only published on a Linux friendly website and never visited anywhere else, a diet of Ubuntu might have worked. But let’s face it, in this comparison, using Linux as your daily OS is analogous to going on a Rice-Cake diet to deal with high cholesterol. You can do it, and make it work, and achieve your goals – but with so much of the joy robbed from the activity, there is probably some better option (DEATH by stroke or heart attack, in the case of high cholesterol).

If it seems that I am even more characteristically disillusioned with Linux – I am. Ubuntu, as the current flagship, Penguin-Banner-bearer of the Linux community, with the “It Just Works” mantra, is a HUGE disappointment, and is probably as ineffective as the OLPC program, which is also driven by these quasi-socialist ideals and agendas about “equitable computing platforms for all”.

Listen, in that sense, I’m glad that we’ve got a cheap OS and companies trying to make cheap hardware platforms for the world’s poor. It is the high tech answer to “let them eat cake”. In this case, we’re not talking about a fully angel cake with thick rich frosting and candy sprinkles, though. We’re talking about a thick, dense, tasteless brick of stale yeech. If you’re starving, it’ll keep you alive – but anyone with any other options would be better off to go with those alternatives. That is what Ubuntu is like. The fact that the OLPC program has had so little success, so much controversy, and seen so many competitors enter the market with For Profit models illustrates that things like Linux and OLPC appeal to only the most dedicated or the most desperate. For the rest of the world, there is a Netbook, and, looking at the return rates, a Win32 netbook, at that.

Maybe, at this point, I should mention what has ignited my wrath toward Linux in general, and Ubuntu in particular, this time around.

Months ago, during the 7.04 release, I complained about how difficult “out of the box” ATI graphic support was for Ubuntu. And it is, there is no dispute of this fact. Ubuntu and Linux forums are overflowing with people complaining about trying to get ATI chipsets to work, in particular with Compiz, using Restricted drivers. The Linux defederati like to explain that it isn’t the *nix community’s fault that ATI is being a bogart with their source-code *and* releasing “bad” drivers that don’t work.

At the time, I was having this problem on a desktop. My solution, which came highly recommended, was to replace the ATI card with an Nvidia card (something I needed little incentive to do, being about as confident in ATI products as I am of Big-3 automobiles – I did find it funny that the “Anti-Top Dog” with such a traditional “No-Microsoft, No Intel, No Nvidia” alternate-PC-lifestyle approach would end up recommending Nvidia as soon as THEY ran into problems with crappy ATI drivers – something Win32 folks have been dealing with for decades). Around that time, I experienced a number of things that distracted me from my *nix Desktop experiment – including acquisition of a Lenovo netbook and an EeePC, which I set up with Win32/Wubuntu and Ubuntu, respectively.

Recently I got back to the desktop, having decided to go with Ubuntu exclusively on the EeePC and deciding that it was just taking up valuable drive space on the Lenovo and removing it during a Win32 rebuild (Lenovo ships their Netbook with a Fat32 partition for some reason, and through my OWN mistakes, I blew the convert to NTFS and had to start from scratch).

Right away I started running into serious problems. I’ve got a fairly obscure and relatively old GEM 15″ LCD on my test bench in the basement that is, worse yet, shared by a generic beige KVM switch. Now, in all defense, any number of Win32 machines detect the refresh and resolution of this rig FINE – but Ubuntu is flailing horribly at it. I mean… it is a fairly old LCD. Come on… it isn’t like it is a stone age CRT. Even then, I’ve got to wonder, I thought one of the arguments was the beauty of *nix support for all manner of OLD equipment that was effectively EOL-ed in the Win32 support arena. Anyhow, lots of reading, and sure enough, LOTS of people are experiencing this same issue. And it turns out the problem is (Can I get a drum roll here…):

Nvidia drivers in 8.1 and up. They’re broken. And guess what… the defenderati are busy trotting out the SAME excuse they use for ATI. “It isn’t the *nix community’s fault that Nvidia is bogarting the source code and releasing bad drivers”.

So – Ubuntu… It Just Works… UNLESS you are running ATI or Nvidia based GPUs.

Isn’t that basically, “Ubuntu, It Doesn’t Really Work At All”… more realistically.

I mean, I suppose it Just Works if you have an original ISA 1mb “Hercules” SVGA card.

Or, even a modern, base Intel graphic chipset.

But it seems to me, PRETTY bold, to have the Motto that your OS “Just Works” when your OS has SIGNIFICANT issues with not just the number 2 Graphic Chipset manufacturer in the world, but with the #1 Graphic Chipset manufacturer, as well. Especially when there is pretty much effectively only ONE other choice, the distant 3rd of Intel graphic chipsets. By the way, I can tell you that Intel never intended to compete with 3D chipset producers. They wanted to make sure that all Intel machines had a BASE level of 3D capability that would require after-market 3D sellers to meet a higher level of BASE quality. Seriously. So the #3 option, which is the only one that Ubuntu supports, is pretty much aknowledged by the manufacturer as a “throw away/gimme” item that MOST users are going to replace with an aftermarket GPU solution – we can presume from ATI or Nvidia.

And listen, I get it – I’m going to have to research the verticial and horizontal refresh rates and manually edit my xorg.conf file in /etc/X11 if I want anything higher than 800×600@65.

But listen, until the most POPULAR, end-user oriented Linux distro out there can consistently get monitor resolution plug-and-play consistently correct on HIGHLY typical hardware that MOST Joe Average users are going to have – Linux is not even REMOTELY a threat to Win32, which has been getting this pretty much right for 10 years now, at least. When you’ve got to know enough to know where the X config file is, what it is called, how to edit it by hand, and what the information is you need to add and where to find it – Linux is still FAR from ready for prime time. As a matter of fact, when Ubuntu is the alleged poster-child for end-user desktop ready “It Just Works” Linux OS… then Linux versus Win32 equals Epic Linux Fail.

Another thing that drives me nuts – Surfing the forums for answers, I saw all kinds of people clearly speaking ESL (English as a Second Language) to OTHER ESL speakers trying to explain and help resolve the problem, and effectively being two ships passing in the night. The person ASKING wasn’t able to clearly explain the problem with their broken English, and the person trying to ANSWER wasn’t able to understand OR provide the correct answer. After several exchanges of happy-happy-going-nowhere-pidgin English between the two, the thread would die – and no one would pick it back up.

Now, if that had been a week ago, I’d have faith that this issue was being worked to a resolution. But many of these posts were way back in summer of 2008, and some look like they went back further. And I feel that I see this a LOT in the Ubuntu community. Not just problems, but widespread problems that are known and ignored or that never seem to get any traction on a resolution.

Altogether frustrating – and I’ve got better things to do with my productivity time. Ubuntu just isn’t ready. And it is the BEST thing *nix has going for it.

Which says it all, about the state of Linux at the moment.

Topic

So

In reply to 1 Way That Linux is an Epic Fail

It’s the fault of the operating system when equipment OEMs don’t support their products?

Do you blame the car dealer for bad fuel?

I blame the car manufactuers if the engine detonates cause of bad fuel

In reply to So

Because the EFI system should have been able to realize something was wrong. And considering the majority of Canadian fuels fall under “Bad” to “Varnish” straight from the pump…

Also this was completely off topic 🙂

Then you are wrong

In reply to I blame the car manufactuers if the engine detonates cause of bad fuel

[i]I blame the car manufactuers if the engine detonates cause of bad fuel…Because the EFI system should have been able to realize something was wrong. [/i]

Engines are designed to operate with a minimum octane level in the fuel. If the fuel is bad and has a low octane level, no amount of compensation by the EFI can eliminate pre-ignition or detonation without at some point exceeding the timing limits to keep the engine running.

Even further off-topic. 😉

frankly I’d prefer the engine refuse to run

In reply to Then you are wrong

Rather than blow up.

….My Snowmobile is smart enough to shut off if the fuel sucks or if the engine is too cold and you try to drive away. Why are cars not at least as smart?

Horrible analogy

In reply to So

If there are only TWO brands of fuels, and only YOUR brand of car can’t handle the “bad fuel”…

Then yeah, there is something wrong with the cars you are making. Absolutely. *ESPECIALLY* if your competitor makes cars that run fine on that bad fuel.

Which is exactly my point. Linux blaming ATI and Nvidia for their woes is like Detroit blaming the bad roads in America for their problems. When there are two main leaders in GPU manufacturers for PC hardware, and your flagship OS distro has MAJOR problems with BOTH of them… it really doesn’t matter WHOSE fault it is. It is *your* problem, Linux.

Until Linux gets that – it certainly isn’t going to be any threat to either OS X or Win32.

How anybody can, in good conscience, recommend a Linux distro to a Noob, is beyond me. I’d be ashamed of myself.

Funny thing

In reply to Horrible analogy

I’ve been running a Nvidia 7800GT for 2 years under ubuntu. The system offers to install the driver right after install and the damn thing just works..

It’s bizarre how people seem to omit driver problems under windows. I’ve had bad drivers that crashed windows, had driver files corrupt themselves, drivers that just didn’t damn work at all, drivers that stopped being available because of the new flavor of windows wasn’t supported. Was that a “windows epic fail”?. Hell no, it was some jackass driver programming that threw the whole thing up in the air, or it just didn’t even exist (the driver that is).

Although I admit I like to flame MS – more for their business policies than products – I never blamed them for drivers that screwed my system, and I have quite a few instances. I fail to see how those screwed up drivers for windows are any different a situation than that of Linux.

For the record, I had a noob friend tell me that his computer never made any sense to him (using XP). After installing ubuntu, he said it was the first time he actually like using his computer. Go figure. Maybe it’s all because I’m a ESL (I usually speak French, and I don’t think my english is that bad)

Dagnabbit.

In reply to Funny thing

There’s the other side of ‘that’ coin. 😀

Horrible analogy or no

In reply to Horrible analogy

Do you remember the DOS days when each application came with all the printer and device drivers necessary to make that application work? The same concept applies to the devices we install in our PCs; the [u]OEM[/u] must provide the software that makes it work with our operating system.

The point is that the responsibility for supporting Nvidia and ATI GPUs in Linux lies not with the Linux community, but with Nvidia and ATI. From your previous posts in many other threads, I already know that you just don’t want to *get* it, but I’m bored, so I’ll beat my head against that wall again.

First, let me point out that Linux [u]does[/u] “get it.” The Linux community has been trying to support Nvidia and ATI GPUs since day one.

Second, Linux can support Intel GPUs because Intel made the information necessary to write the drivers available.

Finally, to the best of my knowledge, Nvidia and ATI have shown no interest in supporting Linux, either by providing Linux/Unix drivers, or by providing the information to allow the Linux kernel developers to write the drivers.

Are you incapable of seeing the point? Or simply unwilling? In either case, if I were you, I’d be ashamed of myself as well.

I think, but not sure

In reply to Horrible analogy or no

that the guy means to say that it’s the Linux community who’s at fault for not coaxing the big hardware makers to be more Linux friendly.

Since when does any community have anything to say as to the conduct of large corporations? If we did have a say, there would be less pollution, better cars (maybe electric), and in general good products, better drivers and MS wouldn’t have made so many people unhappy with Vista. 😉 (An epic fail in it’s own right, at least from a “customer satisfaction” standpoint).

Well…

In reply to I think, but not sure

This is at least CLOSER to understanding my point.

The fact is that the Linux community needs to find SOME way of overcoming these obstacles, if they want to be successful – especially if they want to gain share of the end-user desktop. (There seems to be two emerging groups in the Linux community, that way – those who still want to achieve this, and those who seem to have realized that the desktop OS niche isn’t a good one for Linux, and as it grows to provide this kind of experience, it becomes MORE Win32/OS X like, and that isn’t always a good thing).

My feeling is that Linux is good at what it does, but will never be a significant threat in the desktop OS space. While Ubuntu has jumped ahead in many ways, and has even LED in some features (compiz is by far the coolest eye candy available on any desktop OS), it still lags far behind OS X and even Vista, in general, from a Desktop OS experience perspective. That may be a subjective opinion, but the OBJECT numbers support this opinion.

Um, because COMMUNITIES of people complained, we have safer cars that run cleaner that are more reliable than we had 30 years ago – for SURE. Detroit is in TROUBLE because THEY pointed fingers and blame at external sources, kept doing more or less exactly what they were doing, and ignored the fact that their approach was ineffective and not satisfying their target market’s desires.

GREAT point! Thanks for using that analogy. It is a rare analogy that fits so perfectly.

🙂

The Linux Community is like Detroit Auto. Perfect.

Theory in ATI and nVidia ignoring nix

In reply to Horrible analogy or no

This is just a theory, so don’t hate me.

A good video card costs 200 dollars or more.
Games, 60 dollars.

Linux, free? Free???
People that want free everything, usually don’t pay large sums of money for cards and games, if anything they will probably pirate it in some form.

There is no high end games for Nix, at least not enough to justify the big card manufactuers to waste time and money making drivers for a community that doesn’t need gigantic video cards with 260 processing cores and more onboard memory than their computers themselves have.

Saddly this also effects the econo cards, but I bet the integrated chipsets from nVidia and ATI work just fine in Nix don’t they?

And to the guy that said is 7800 worked, the 7800 is ancient, be really sad if it didn’t work!

But

In reply to Theory in ATI and nVidia ignoring nix

They could still supply the information to the linux community so the drivers can be easily created for Linux machines. Its no skin of their back and they will easily be able to sell to a little more market.

I own Linux and im going to buy the brand thats the easiest to get working, why waste my time using something else differant. Although saying this my 8800 GTX worked fine when they first came out. Luck I Guess

Driver secrets perhaps

In reply to But

I mean think about it, nVidia has a full tuning program, and fancy control panel.

ATI uses .NET to make their control panel. They provide simple changes but lots of automated things liek automatically reloading your display driver if it crashes (If we fu*k up, fail safe??? lol).

If one could learn the others secrets….

… And on that note, I hope to god nVidia never starts requiring .NET for their control panel.

Exactly

In reply to Driver secrets perhaps

I think the open source philosophy has a basic disconnect with business reality.

It creates a difficult situation for Linux, for sure – very hard to reconcile yourself with – and not a lot of negotiation power.

“If you don’t open up and support us, you’ll be missing out on less than 2% of the possible market for your product!”

I’m sure ATI and Nvidia are both quaking in their shoes. 🙂

And what % of that 2% does any hardcore PC gaming

In reply to Driver secrets perhaps

I’m gonna guess almost none. Only those with duel boot systems to Windows would probably by some gigantic card to go gaming. And I would suspect that such a user probably just games and web surfs.

Why do we jump from airplanes with nothing more than a giant plastic bag to hold us up? Because insecurity is fun!

Windows Jumps from the plane and hopes you have a parachute, if not well… There is always another jumper.

Nix flys the plane back to the ground, opens the door, throws out a soft mat to land on, attaches a bungee cord to the jumper, then slowly lowers them down with a hook and crane out of the plane, parachute deployed.

I think I like my analogy better 🙂

it’s a false premis for business though

In reply to Driver secrets perhaps

If ATI is waiting for nVidia to release hardware and drivers so they can copy them, they’re already a generation behind; they are always following what they are trying to catch. They each have to be developing the next generation of hardware not waiting to copy the other else the strategy is failure.

At the same time, if the only problem is the binary firmware hidden in the driver instead of the hardware (where it belongs), stuff it into an easily updated firmware chip and provide a generic driver interface infront of it. Developers don’t see the secrets, patents not owned by ATI or AMD are protected, end user benefits, GPU companies sell more units.

So maybe it’s to make firmware updates dead simple; new firmware or driver = new driver version pack for download. Routers and other bits of hardware allow for that updated firmware to pass through open space and be flashed to the device. It can’t be hard enough to write a driver update that performs the firmware flash; far more simple than some of the discrete graphics code anyhow.

The disconnect is in thinking that obscuring the code and interfaces somehow provides that great an advantage over the competition.

But, business strategic thinking would have to change. ATI may be an indication that it is changing and hopefully that pays off for AMD since the processor market is hit and miss with them.

I hate you.

In reply to Theory in ATI and nVidia ignoring nix

“This is just a theory, so don’t hate me.”

But it has nothing to do with your theory 😀

I hate you too :D

In reply to I hate you.

.

Linux users will pay for good software and hardware

In reply to Theory in ATI and nVidia ignoring nix

Hardware is a given. People will pay good money for quality hardware. Those who save money on the software licenses have more money to devote to the honking hardware. The only limitation for that is hardware manufacturer’s choice to keep interface specs hidden.

Software, well, Games and applications which justify the cost will be hapily purchasesed. It’s not about zero-cost for everyone. Adobe’s attempt at the FOSS market failed because they wanted 700$ for Photoshop which did not provide 700$ of advantage above and beyond GIMP. Foss folks are just as willing to buy games at 60$ a pop also. They problem there is the development houses doing a poor job of packaging the product or kicking the DirectX habit. I’d love to drop my win32 boot partition with the ability to buy games with a native installer for my chosen platform.

They have used the excuse that “free software people want everything at no cost so we won’t develop for that market” but it’s bunk supported by case studies that failed for reasons outside of FOSS consumers.

They also use the excuse that the market sliver is too small. It seems a research outcome without any actual tests on the market. Again, people went through the pain of installing the native NeverWinter game engine and it ran better on a *nix platform than it did on Windows. I thank them for providing as much as they did but a native installer on the CD would have made the difference; it was tossing scraps to the second class platform. Granted, much larger scraps than usually offered.

With thinks like NIC and GPU, you have the added excuse of “but we have patented firmware in the driver”; so stuff it in a firmware chip back on the board and build a generic interface already. We don’t want the damn secrets, we want to see the hardware working like it really could.

AMD/ATI has been working to provide open driver specs and support so we’ll see how that develops. nVidia continues to feel they can provide better support but also allows in house developers to work with the reverse engineering effort for an open driver.

Personally, I’d love to see what the BSDs and Linux based distros could do with hardware industry standards or interface specs provided consistantly. The kernel and X developers will write support for any hardware they are given specs for. BSDs can do there own thing. The hardware vendors can use that driver development budget back in the hardware development budget. End user gets better support across all platforms and full functionality out of the hardware; they’re more likely to buy hardware as a result.

you are mis-informed Nick,

In reply to Horrible analogy or no

“Finally, to the best of my knowledge, Nvidia and ATI have shown no interest in supporting Linux, either by providing Linux/Unix drivers, or by providing the information to allow the Linux kernel developers to write the drivers.”

NVidia’s developers actively work with the Xorg developers to improve the OPEN SOURCE NVidia driver included with Xorg.
The same NVidia developers that write the proprietary NVidia drivers for the *x systems.

ATI, they do ignore the *x systems… though that was supposed to change when they merged with AMD, it just hasn’t happened yet. :/

So why do we keep reading about problems?

In reply to you are mis-informed Nick,

“NVidia’s developers actively work with the Xorg developers to improve the OPEN SOURCE NVidia driver included with Xorg.”

Then do you have any theory on why we keep reading about problems with NVidia cards? It doesn’t seem to be restricted to Ubuntu.

What I want to know is…

In reply to So why do we keep reading about problems?

Why in the past, say 7.04, ATI had huge problems and people with Nvidia cards were saying, “ATI is the problem”.

Now, it looks like ATI is still a problem, but Nvidia has joined ATI’s ranks.

That is disturbing. It makes it a REAL crapshoot on getting Ubuntu to work with your hardware, unless you’ve GOT embedded Intel graphics on your board.

Thanks for the info, Jaqui

In reply to you are mis-informed Nick,

.

Defenderati

In reply to Horrible analogy or no

ARe you incapable or unwilling of seeing the point that it doesn’t MATTER if this is the “fault” of ATI and/or Nvidia. Pointing fingers and crying that ATI and Nvidia won’t release their source code to provide support for their proprietary hardware into the Open Source (Palmetto seems to get this, in another branch of this thread) – doesn’t fix the fact that there are two *leaders* in the field/market of providing graphic hardware for PCs, and Ubuntu has significant problems with BOTH of them.

End users don’t CARE if it is ATI/Nvidia’s fault or Ubuntu. They don’t care about philosophical reasons that lie behind the issues, they don’t care about anything but having their screen have the correct range of available resolutions (or at the very least, being able to autodetect the correct native resolution and frequency match between card and LCD display – as opposed to having the monitor displaying a frustrating “video signal out of range” error message).

The *PROBLEM* is Ubuntu’s. Ubuntu needs to figure out a way to overcome the challenge.

This crybaby, whining petulant *nix attitude of “These guys won’t play with us by our rules and so that isn’t FAIR because they’re only interested in working with big companies like Apple and Microsoft where there is LOTS of money involved”… is just that. Grow up. Welcome to reality. This is, in all ways, about BUSINESS.

Who is uncapable or unwilling to understand, here? I *understand* your argument. It doesn’t *change* the REALITY of what Ubuntu, specifically is up against here.

The Ubuntu communities efforts to support ATI and Nvidia have resulted in WORSE support under 8.10 than existed under 7.04. If this is Ubuntu’s idea of progress, the future is NOT bright for Linux.

Talk about banging your head against a wall. How come Linux advocates insist in repainting reality so that it suits their favorite OS?

Mr. Clobert

In reply to Defenderati

If I have anything bad to say about Linux, it’s how most distros just seem to each go their own way. Nobody seems to agree as to what to do next, much less how to do it. Often enough, there are quite a few step backwards in many areas, not just video cards. (try mouse support, my MX revolution sucks under Linux unless you tweak for a long time)

Also, money does run our world and Linux is not big money, you’re right about that. So maybe there won’t ever be a real solution to bring Linux on top. Stop moaning and go back to the windows heaven! So says the clown!

Now I sort of understand

In reply to Defenderati

[i]The *PROBLEM* is Ubuntu’s. Ubuntu needs to figure out a way to overcome the challenge.[/i]

So the problem is Ubuntu’s. How, then, does this become an “epic fail” for Linux? My thought processes don’t turn in those kinds of circles.

I’m with you.

In reply to Now I sort of understand

One distro has a problem with anything other than the most basic video card. Maybe if the discussion had been titled, “1 Way That Ubuntu, Not Linux, is an Partial, not Epic, Failure” …

Yeah, but…

In reply to I’m with you.

The authors of the Anti-MS screeds here taught me an important lesson…

Inflamatory, exaggerated headlines create high volume threads with lots of passionate discussion back and forth…

How much discussion would have:

“1 Way That Ubuntu, Not Linux, is an Partial, not Epic, Failure”

Generated?

Blame the Tech Rep content authors – I’m just following their style and content guide.

:D

In reply to I’m with you.

Lesson well-learned!

I’ve noticed…

In reply to Now I sort of understand

“My thought processes don’t turn in those kinds of circles.”

Ubuntu is the standard-bearer and great-white-hope for the majority of press/industry excitement, including among very pro-Linux and Linux-literate sites, with regard to potential Linux inroads into a larger desktop OS presence and perhaps, optimistically (or unrealistically), unseating MS OS dominance.

The odds are that if someone is considering “the switch”, and they’re following the industry buzz and excitement, they’re going to give Ubuntu first shot. And such a user is likely to extrapolate their Ubuntu experience to a Linux experience, and to talk about it to OTHER people considering the switch, as well.

So Ubuntu’s problems are Linux’s problems, in a very real sense. Linux as a whole is likely to be judged publically by Ubuntu’s success or failures – again, (it doesn’t make much difference if) rightly or wrongly.

Intel won’t allow detroit to put Intel Inside stickers on Detroit cars although they’ve begged for years. They don’t want a negative association if the car fails with THEIR carefully crafted and nurtured brand identity. Linux, as a community, doesn’t understand these basic principles of BUSINESS – which is one of their great faults and liabilities in trying to compete with ruthless, for profit business models like Apple and Microsoft. Linux thinks it isn’t a brand, it is a community, that it is expempt from these principles. But it is not.

I’ve said this already, a couple of times, other places in the thread. I suppose I can’t expect everyone to read all 50+ posts here, though.

Got it now

In reply to I’ve noticed…

The “epic fail” is that for the world at large, Ubuntu=Linux.

Roughly the same thing occurred back in the early video days after RCA discontinued their CED videodisc format. The press reported that the “videodisc is dead.” This announcement essentially also killed the LaserDisc format very early in the game. Laserdisc was never going to achieve mass appeal because you couldn’t record, but the videophiles pounced on it for both the quality and price. (Back then, original VHS movies cost $70-80 and up, and the same movie on LaserDisc ran less than $30, often less than $25. Many friends went out and bought laserdisc players after watching a movie at my house and comparing costs.)

BTW, for Windows users looking to evaluate Linux, I recommend they start with PCLinuxOS, NOT Ubuntu. No OS can be everything to everybody; Windows has already proven that.

Exactly

In reply to I’ve noticed…

And the LaserDisc analogy is a really good one, too.

There are probably a lot of other cases, where something has emerged, and been such an epic failure, that it killed a whole, related “industry” – but I can’t think of any others off the top of my head. Laserdisc is as good an example as any, though.

I’m not talking about absolute truths here – and I think a lot of Linux advocates also tend to be idealists and absolute moralists. They’re the guys who get BEHIND a technology and can’t believe when it fails even though it is, in almost all ways, superior. Linux has attracted this kind of personality from the start. And that is where I meet one of my bigger frustrations with the Linux community. Arguing what “should be” and what IS. Believing something SHOULD be doesn’t make it happen. Unfortunately, it seems like the Linux game plan is 1 part dedication, 1 part passion and a handfull of Pixie dust and daisy petals. 🙂

Recent example

In reply to I’ve noticed…

of said case is Vista. So bad a release not even Microsoft wants to mention the name. They’ve been rebranding for a year now.

A for Effort @ Saur…

In reply to I’ve noticed…

For trying to direct a little of this hate back toward MS – but MS really isn’t a factor in this discussion, one way or another. It is really about Linux.

And Vista, failure or not, is very unlikely to have any long term impact on Win32, any more than Win ME had any significant lasting impact on Microsoft or their products.

Vista is an example of how effective snake-oil marketing by an ADVERSARY can ignite, truthful or not, and cause irreparable harm to your product line. To put that in perspective, if Apple and Microsoft were in the AUTOMOBILE industry, Apple ads would have had Microsoft cars bursting into flames and killing entire familes, while they claimed, “Apple automobiles NEVER burst into flames and kill families, that only happens in Microsoft cars”.

Of course in the auto industry, such irresponsible advertising would result in huge lawsuits, so it would never happen.

But this is LARGELY what happened in the PC/Mac ads where Apple made outrageous claims, such as that Apple talks better to obscure Japanese USB cameras that a PC has no ability to communicate with.

And large parts of the public, either gullible or anxious to see Microsoft falter or fail, bought into this. The poor driver support for the original RTM release candidate for Vista didn’t help things, and it took them awhile to get SP2 out and address significant problems. Finally, Microsoft actively mis-marketed the OS – pushing home features to corporate users. It just turned into the perfect storm. Of course, being at Intel when AMD “beat” them to 1ghz and they got a bunch of anti-trust cases instantly thrown out – sometimes you’ve got to lose to win, and maybe Microsoft is taking a clue from the Intel play-book.

But Vista is not NEARLY as bad as they press would have you believe. It is actually a lot BETTER than OS X Tiger (I don’t have leopard, so I can’t comment on that).

@dcolbert

In reply to I’ve noticed…

I don’t find any hate in my comments. Just clear observations of what happened. I won’t go into love and hate discussion, just point to market share decline. Period.

Now this conversation is certainly about Linux. It might not be about Windows as you mention, but it isn’t about laser disks either. So the validity and relevance of my comment stands as long as the laser disk comments stand (which you endorsed btw).

Now regarding Microsoft and Apple being in the auto industry. To start off I’d add that we wouldn’t have such “use at your own risk” EULAs. If car manufacturers could allow airbags to not deploy, seat belts failing to lock, seat belts that snap, power steering that locks, engines that suddenly turn off, headlights that wont turn on (or off), break lights that sometimes work and sometimes don’t, etc etc etc. Well they’d get sued silly.

So before we start comparing software manufacturers with auto manufacturers we have to clean this world of all the bad habits in the computer industry which are unconceivable in other industries.

Regarding the Tiger vs Vista comment. What did you expect? Tiger is older. Like saying Seven is better than Vista. What else would you expect? Are your expectations for Microsoft so low you could even consider an alternative answer?

PS, I also wanted to include a comment I hadn’t had time to post to your previous comment. The one regarding administration and all those PCs you manage. Clearly an impressive feat, but we are talking about Joe Average. Not about a corporate IT department.

You just described the recall list on my car

In reply to I’ve noticed…

“If car manufacturers could allow airbags to not deploy, seat belts failing to lock, seat belts that snap, power steering that locks, engines that suddenly turn off, headlights that wont turn on (or off), break lights that sometimes work and sometimes don’t, etc etc etc.”

I didn’t know anyone

In reply to I’ve noticed…

still drove a Yugo 🙂

They are called Chevy’s now. NT

In reply to I’ve noticed…

.

Saurondor…

In reply to I’ve noticed…

Is in Mexico city. His perception of vehicle safety is probably completely different than what we’re used to here in the States, Canada or most of Europe. Don’t they still make the ORIGINAL VW Beetle for sale in Mexico? 🙂

On the rest, Saur, I think you just simply missed my point.

Vista is better than Tiger, but Tiger is better than any *currently* available version of Linux – as far as feature sets.

Vehicle safety

In reply to I’ve noticed…

True, that’s why I don’t buy American made.

Ouch!

In reply to I’ve noticed…

Touche!

Cuando la gente de Mexico no compran coches de los Estados Unidos, porque de la seguridad mal, es un mal tiempo por los Estados Unidos, no?

🙂

Doble ouch!

In reply to I’ve noticed…

Por que no solo es en M?xico. Tambi?n mi familia en Georgia compra autos asi?ticos. 🙁

For my education, let’s debate this one.

In reply to So

There are some Linux advocates who insist all drivers must be open source. For whatever reason, the video card manufacturers will only supply drivers in a closed format.

Are there distros that include closed source drivers? Do these have the same problems with the major video cards as Ubuntu? If there was less resistance to closed source drivers, do you think there would be better support from hardware manufacturers?

Edited to remove inaccurate assumption.

Ubuntu Restricted

In reply to For my education, let’s debate this one.

Ubuntu will allow you to ignore their philosophy and they have a pretty complete repository that allows access to a lot of stuff that doesn’t support their philosophy.

Installing that code “breaks” Ubuntu “support”, but I’m not big on having a guy explain to me in broken English that the problem I have is caused by the problem I just described. “Wow, thanks, Ravish, but I *knew* that much already, do you have any USEFUL solutions other than RTFM?”

The problem seems to be, as some have pointed out, that the Nvidia Restricted drivers themselves are broken – and have been for several distros.

Ubuntu is effectively powerless to “fix” the broken drivers – according to the Linux Defenderati. Jaqui seems to disagree.

In either case, from version 8.01 to 8.10 you would think they would have developed a comprehensive, well written, HowTo: workaround and have it published prominently on the ubuntu page. But that isn’t the case.

There ARE solutions to “resolving” challenges. But, I think Ubuntu PHILOSOPHY says, “We’re going to make a point on this issue”…

You guys go right ahead. Shoot yourself in the foot – or maybe the head. That’ll teach Nvidia.

*shrug*.

I hate to go with the crowd, but

In reply to Ubuntu Restricted

“The problem seems to be, as some have pointed out, that the Nvidia Restricted drivers themselves are broken …”

If the drivers Nvidia are providing are both restricted and broken, I don’t see how this makes Linux an “epic failure”. It means you can’t use apps that require the capabilities of those cards. That may rule out many desktop scenarios, but that doesn’t make an OS a failure in all situations (servers, embedded apps, non-graphic business apps, etc.)

I have to agree

In reply to I hate to go with the crowd, but

I don’t see this as a Linux fault. Drivers are made and maintained by the manufacturers, if they put out broken stuff, its not Nix’s fault.

Lets look at this from

In reply to I have to agree

the point of view of Joe Average. Those of us reading here are professionals and hard core enthusiasts where computers are concerned, we need to set our perceptions aside…
So Joe Average, the man that thinks his monitor “is” the computer…
He can’t get his monitor to display anything after booting off this cd his friend gave him… is he going to blame a bad driver from ATI, or just chuck the cd, labeling Linux as junk?
I think the idea here is that why the cards are not working is much less important then the fact that they don’t work.
And Linux has a responsibility (this seems to be the point of contention)to provide an answer of some type, be it pressure on the OEMs for real drivers, or reversed engineered drivers, if it is to ever really compete against Windows and Mac on the desktop.
My opinion is that it is the OEM’s responsibility to provide quality drivers for their products, not the OS’s. But that the Linux community needs to find a way to get OEM’s to not treat them as second class citizens.

Dumb question about Joe

In reply to Lets look at this from

Does Joe Average even have an NVidia or ATI card? Doesn’t he just run the on-mobo Intel graphics that came with the system?

Not a dumb question at all

In reply to Lets look at this from

And Joe may not even know. He is the guy that pays geeksquad to put in ram.

Please…

In reply to Lets look at this from

Can we have a moment of silence…

This momentous moment is to mark the first time that someone has gotten past my rabid anti-Linux rhetoric to actually understand the genuine thesis of my opinion.

Dumphrey, in the highest sense of the word, you get to call “first” on this one.

About Joe

In reply to Lets look at this from

Odds are that Joe’s machine is a notebook.

Odds are that Joe’s notebook has ATI or Nvidia GPU.

Among the remain sales of desktops, odds are that Joe’s OEM machine is not made from a DIY motherboard that has integrated Intel GPU, but instead a Dell (or possibly other OEM) that again, has ATI or Nvidia GPU.

Really, even if Joe had the nice kid, Eric, who does “pc consulting” and makes and resells DIY machines, Eric probably disabled the onboard video and put in an aftermarket PCI-E video card. Not necessarily a top-of-the-line card… but an inexpensive one suitable for Joe’s average gaming needs. Because not only is that some extra markup for Eric, but it is, oddly enough, probably less TROUBLE down the road because Eric doesn’t have to worry about Joe calling and complaining that his new machine doesn’t run some game or another.

Now – Netbooks sales are making the Intel GPU chipset more popular, but generally, from a historic perspective, you can count on MOST Joes having either ATI or Nvidia.

Dumphrey is right though, Joe probably doesn’t know. He told the sales guy at Circuit City, “I just want a machine that can, you know, surf the web, send some e-mails, maybe watch some videos, and probably play some games”.

In any case, once again: Ubuntu wants to fight for the desktop (Read: Ubuntu WANTS Joe). Ubuntu says, “It Just Works”, (Because that is what Joe wants, right?) but the #1 and #2 video card manufacturers out there are Nvidia and ATI, respectively, and Ubuntu DOESN’T just work well with EITHER of them.

That is BIG – man. There is simply no denying it. There is no way to walk yourself around this as a major and significant problem. For Ubuntu at the least, and because of the high profile nature of Ubuntu, for Linux as a whole, at the worst.

More about Joe

In reply to Lets look at this from

“…Eric doesn’t have to worry about Joe calling and complaining that his new machine doesn’t run some game or another. … Joe probably … told the sales guy at Circuit City, “I just want a machine that can, … probably play some games”.

And now we’re back to games, and Joe doesn’t want Linux because it won’t run his games, even if the video card works better than under Windows, with a vendor-provided open source driver.

Joe and gaming

In reply to Lets look at this from

The thing is, if you can’t even get past the install, Joe isn’t going to GIVE Linux a try. The fact is that it is likely that when Joe SAYS “some gaming” he is talking about online Soduku, poker or other game in Flash or Java (let’s not get started on the Ubuntu Flash problems going on right now).

I keep hearing how Linux has become a viable alternative to Win32 for the most common tasks – and netbooks were supposed to be an example of this in action.

Email, web, and document creation. The argument has been that the only thing Win32 really has going for it is gaming.

I think gaming is of declining influence for Win32, this is a “console era” for gaming. But I think Linux has huge problems with surfing. Ubuntu’s primary browser option is Firefox – and NOT MUCH ELSE. People are interested in media manipulation. Ubuntu codecs bite – and for managing media, OS X and Vista both are far more feature rich.

For so many reasons, Linux is late getting out of the gate, and then is hobbled once it is on the track and in the race. While a more techie guy with more time than money may find that he can live with those limitations – Joe… Joe is going to go with something a little more mainstream, 99 times out of 100.

Now, if you could get out of the gate (easy install) and run without a limp (working WiFi without extra config, enhanced “web 2.0” sites using things like Flash that WORK) then maybe Joe would stick around long enough to realize that the few games he might want to play are more fun and less hassle on his Xbox 360 anyhow and Linux on the desktop might have a chance.

But Linux is falling apart for a lot of Joes before they ever even get that far. And that is in SPITE of Ubuntu making *huge* strides in this general direction.

I’ve said THIS before. Ubuntu and their “It Just Works” thing may be relative…

Considered to Debian 4 years ago, or Slackware 10 years ago, Ubuntu -“it just works”.

Compared to the state of art of desktop OS options available today, though, it doesn’t look so good.

To be honest

In reply to Lets look at this from

“booting off this cd” is something Joe Average doesn’t even know exists. Booting is a term unknown to Joe Average and colloquially referred to as “pushing the power button”. Kinda like explaining the making of microwave popcorn with quantum mechanics and Plank’s equations.

In the world of Windows people get a preinstalled PC with all drivers in place. I totally agree with you that it is the OEMs responsibility to supply this level of integration or at best verify it is being supplied.

If you take the time to install Windows on a PC with an OEM CD. Not the quick recovery provided by the OEM. Then you’d realize just how hard it is to install Windows.

More so on a Mac. I’ve had the opportunity to observe some friends install OS X on non Apple hardware. The target PC’s hardware needs to be specifically selected so you’ll have drivers that support it.

So I believe the main issue with Linux is the lack of mainstream support for desktop usage. Can it be overcome, certainly. Once hardware manufacturers support it on a broader scale.

The advantage Linux has over Windows is that it is cheaper and more flexible than Windows. Thus OEMs can mold it into smaller devices and sell cheaper devices without having the OS become such a great part of the overall cost. An OEM can also mold it as it see fits and not have to depend on Microsoft. All this adds a lot of advantage to Linux.

But why hasn’t it succeeded on the PC market? Because of games and MS Office plus a lot of other specific applications. Joe Average really doesn’t care about his display. He wants to be able to use his printer in a snap. Remember all the Vista driver issues? Joe Average didn’t understand why it didn’t work any more than he’d understand why it wouldn’t work on Linux. And he got Vista spoon fed just like he could get Linux and he had to learn to live with it.

Take for example an N800 or N810. Lovely devices. Everyone I show the N800 wants one. Even those with iPhones. The thing runs Linux, everything works. They understand it isn’t a PC so they don’t mind it being different. They’re all so into the novelty they don’t mind it having a different way of installing things. Or that it doesn’t have MS Office. They’ll go out of their way to learn it because it is novel. This has been lost in the Windows PC market. It isn’t a gripe, just a statement of the way of things.

People expect things to work the way things have always worked. Ironically they’re willing to have their ground moved from under their feet with Windows, but will complain on Linux. In my opinion if roles were reversed and Linux had a dominant market share and lots of games and lots of applications like CADs and finance and office apps. Then this thing called Windows Vista and the new Windows Seven would have no traction whatsoever. The main issue is not a video driver, but habit and application penetration Windows currently has. And which the OEMs are afraid to move away from in the PC market. Everywhere else, embedded, mobile, server Microsoft is taking a beating or at best having a hard time.

@Saurandor

In reply to Lets look at this from

Saur, I work in a Win32 shop with 120 desktop Win32 machines on my internal network, and about 1400 additional users across my WAN (many of whom represent physical workstations, many of which we directly support).

That is a lot of Win32 workstations. Now, an OEM or original Win XP install (not recovery) takes awhile – but it is mostly clicking “YES”, “Continue” or “Next”. There are very few curveballs (does YOUR keyboard have an a with umlats over it? Does it have an N with tilde, how about a backwards R?)for the average user. Sometimes there is some Plug N Play and some “Insert the driver disk now”. Which can cause problems for the newbie if they don’t know where their USB webcam driver disk is. But even then, once they get someone like me over, it is pretty simple to put the driver disk in, open the device manager, and install the correct driver. That isn’t always the case if Linux misses something.

Your concerns on Mac sound like they must be specific to Hackintosh installs – which simply isn’t a fair comparisson. OS X hackintosh installs are outrageously difficult and very hard to get all of your hardware recognized and configured correctly. But OS X installs on any actual Macintosh are pretty much put the disk in the drive and go.

I’ve never got a Hackintosh install to work 100% correctly (NIC, wireless, sound, resolution). But I’m not surprised.

I’d say that saying that Windows SERVER is “at best having a hard time” is a bit of an exaggeration.

You’re right about Linux being well suited to the niches, though. If you’re building a network appliance – say a NAS… Linux is ideal. A very base Linux, a very base apache, and a web interface, and *boom*, very lightweight NAS OS. Win32 based NAS devices (from Dell, for instance) – suck. Too much overhead in the embedded OS for something that is just a file share.

I don’t think Linux is cheaper or more flexible. I’ll trot out the MSI Wind Linux return rate as an example. The mythical “Windows Tax” doesn’t seem to be there. A Lenovo S10 notebook is one of the most nicely featured and configured Netbooks available today. Same Atom processor, the first (and maybe still only) netbook with a Fast-32 slot, and an 80gb hard drive. It GENERALLY retails for at least $50 less than comparable LINUX based Netbooks from competitors such as ASUS, ACER, MSI. And it ONLY comes with XP on it. So much for the Microsoft “Tax” or the Linux cost “advantage”.

Some of your other ideas I don’t disagree with. If I haven’t addressed them directly, you can assume I agree. (Mostly about embedded devices and consumer expectations).

You’re right, not their FAULT but it is their PROBLEM

In reply to I have to agree

The *nix community as a whole NEED this fixed so they have a shred of credibility.

Fair enough

In reply to I hate to go with the crowd, but

I’ll be more granular in my definition. Most misunderstanding in debate reside in unclear and imprecise definition, anyhow. I do believe I’ve clarified this in other branches of this thread, but you may not have read those, so I’ll restate again here, for your benefit.

Ubuntu, as the leading Linux altnernate-desktop OS, having *significant* and *well* documented issues with both ATI and Nvidia chipset GPU cards – related to enabling Compiz, detetcing optimal refresh and resolution match between video card and display, and supporting all available video modes (something that Linux has GENERALLY struggled with providing an easy way to do since, well… forever), and being unable to develop documentation or work-around solutions for SEVERAL different number revisions of Ubuntu, is an Epic Fail of Ubuntu for the Desktop OS segment.

I am extrapolating that as an epic-fail for Linux in general, being that so many of these goals are larger themes for the Linux community as a whole in their constant “struggle” against MS industry dominance.

I think THAT is fair enough, also.

There are two choices, really for GPU – ATI or Nvidia. Ubuntu has problems with BOTH of them. Come on. The reasons aren’t really important. You can get caught up on ideals of moral right here, but for practical application, are you going to buy something that works or something that doesn’t work, regardless of the reason WHY it does or doesn’t work?

These issues, and the fact that they’re getting worse, not better, with time and new releases of Linux, is simply indicitive of the fundamental flaws with the *nix philosophy and approach.

I understand that this second step is a bigger leap to make, and one that is certainly influenced by the fact that I don’t spend a lot of time worshipping at The Penguins Temple drinking the open source Kool-Aide. But I’m OK with that. I’m trying to save those in risk of being converted by the heathens, not trying to savte those who are already lost.

I’ll also admit, at least a portion of this is simply “aping” the journalistic style of the content authors here at Tech Republic with sensationalist headlines that overstate the content of the actual article, for the exact same shock value. There is always a certain mocking element of parody in my pieces – which are typically at least partially “response” to articles by Jack Wallen and the other Apostles of the Temple of the Penguin around here.

for me, it’s better drivers

In reply to For my education, let’s debate this one.

I don’t much care if the driver is a closed binary or community compiled source provided it works. If nVidia can provide a better kernel module than the community driver; no worries, I’ll use the closed binary. Previous to AMD, ATI could not provide a better driver than the community project.

By extension, distributions that include binary blobs are just fine. Binaries are in a “non-free” repository that I have to add in by hand; not a problem.

I thought Ubuntu was including closed drivers. I know Mandriva Powerpack has all the drivers and codecs needed. The lesser Mandriva versions also provide clean ATI and nvidia support through the X configuring drake tool. PCLinuxOS is probably good. I’m not sure how Xandros is but it’s a paid distro I believe. Mint is another that prides itself on codec and video support.

Some distros make free licensed code the goal of the distro. Other’s allow for closed license code where it makes more sense for them.

If I am not mistaken (offtopic a bit)

In reply to for me, it’s better drivers

Most of the paid distros are including LinDVD (brought to you by Corel/Intervideo) in their repositories now for legal dvd playback in North America.

yup, from the makers of WinDVD.. LinDVD

In reply to If I am not mistaken (offtopic a bit)

That’s what I hear also. LinDVD seems to be the preferred name for playing your movies back. I believe that’s what Mandriva Powerpack includes.

I guess I’m the only one who wonders why watch a movie on a computer.

In reply to yup, from the makers of WinDVD.. LinDVD

Especially when there’s often a full-sized television with better picture quality in the same room.

Lately,

In reply to I guess I’m the only one who wonders why watch a movie on a computer.

We’ve been watching Heros season 2 on my 17″ widescreen notebook in bed at night – even though there is a 32″ CRT right on the nightstand. We can also stream Netflix to my 42″ tv downstairs via my Xbox 360 that is hooked up there. I’ve also watched a few Netflix movies on my 10″ netbook.

Oh… which is another strike against Linux. No Silverlight, no Netflix streaming.

Joe Average is real happy about streaming movies and TV over the internet to his PC. He isn’t going to be happy at all when he finds out that with Ubuntu and Firefox, that isn’t an option.

🙂

Seriously, I get total N00b friends sending me messages on Facebook telling me I need to watch W. and that I should do it via this/that (illegal) streaming site on the web. We’re kind of relics on this, Palmetto.

DivX files piped thru computer to TV screen

In reply to I guess I’m the only one who wonders why watch a movie on a computer.

Is usually why I do it, I use my lappy for that.

SS, don’t hate me because I ask stupid questions,

In reply to I guess I’m the only one who wonders why watch a movie on a computer.

but what kind of content is delivered in DivX format? I do almost nothing with digital media, mostly because I can get what I want via more ‘traditional’ methods (cable, DVD, radio, CD).

Digital Media

In reply to I guess I’m the only one who wonders why watch a movie on a computer.

I do all kinds of things with digital media, because it is so convenient and portable (in senses far beyond the traditional of convenient and portable).

And I’m behind the curve compared to the digital elite and the current youth generation. They hardly use traditional media or mediums at all. Their custom internet radio channels go with them from device to device, integrate with their friends playlists via facebook, and custom learn their preferences. They watch new release movies off of streaming sites before they are released in the theaters in HD digital quality (or in shakey hand-cam with external audio, sometimes).

Many of them are beyond an iPod and Zune and digital MP3 collection. Why bother?

Happening today, at this moment. So yeah, it isn’t that we’re stupid, it is just that we’re way behind the curve. We’re the old guys still listening to 75rpm records on an old-tyme RCA phonegraph in the modern era of reel-to-reel high-fi stereophonic systems.

Divx is a super compressed video

In reply to I guess I’m the only one who wonders why watch a movie on a computer.

That should be enough information on that.

It is often applied to DVD movies, and usually reduces their size to about 700mb.

It is also often used on TV shows downloaded from the internet for the same reason.

DivX is just the Codec’s name, there is a DivX player, but its not needed, anything can play it. I personally use GOM player because of how well it handles TV output and how you can reformat the video, such as removing letter box etc.

DivX files traditionally come as .AVI files.

Some modern DVD players can play DivX files, however none of mine can, so it is just convienent to hook up the laptop to the surround sound and video system, and use the wireless to connect to the terrabye drive in my desktop, and stream the videos over the network. It works flawlessly.

I also watch TV shows, flash videos, youtube, etc. and the occasional Console emulator this way.

For the longets time

In reply to I guess I’m the only one who wonders why watch a movie on a computer.

my computer WAS my tv. I have a 24 inch monitor, a remote control for it, and a dvd player built in. I can also browse the internet on it. I lived in a small aprtment and had no need or desire to buy a huge tv for the hour or so of tv I watched a week. And being stretched out in front of the computer monitor was no worse or better then a similar sized tv. Also, a tv tuner in your computer is like having a TiVo(tm), so I could program the shows I wanted to watch to be recorded, and watch them at my convenience.
Now days I have my laptop connected to the lcd tv and my amp. There are legal sources for streaming tv, hulu for example, that I prefer over having to wait until a show is on that week. Not being an avid tv watcher, I really don’t care if I’m 3 or 5 episodes behind broadcast.

Hulu

In reply to yup, from the makers of WinDVD.. LinDVD

As someone who is technically adept, a quick look at Hulu and it looks far more legit than some (most) of the links I’ve been refered to…

“Hey, watch the Dark Knight free here at..”

“Hey, have you seen W. yet? You can watch it online at…”

But to an average user, drawing the distinction between a legitimate site and one that is clearly running afoul of copyright law is a much more difficult challenge. I see a technology trainwreck of litigation, accusation and futile legislation coming in the future in relation to these sites that stream video – that will make the current issues surrounding YouTube and cease and desist requests there seem like nothing worth even noticing.

Hulu is backed by

In reply to Hulu

Directtv and interrupts the shows with commercials (non-skippable). They even advertise the sight (featuring the fat Baldwin brother) on cable TV.
As best as I can tell, its as legit as you can get with streaming.

“I see a technology trainwreck of litigation, accusation and futile legislation coming in the future in relation to these sites that stream video – that will make the current issues surrounding YouTube and cease and desist requests there seem like nothing worth even noticing.”

I fear your right, but if we learned anything from cd’s and mp3’s, standing in the way of “progress” means loss of revenue.
Our society is becoming used to being catered to by the internet, legally or not. This translates into dissatisfaction with the current model of TV distribution and cable “packages” which have remained unchanged for what, 20 years now?
Winning the war on internet piracy is akin to winning the war on drugs. Nearly impossible to do while maintaining the civil liberties of the innocent.

I think it may be the same issue TR has

In reply to Hulu

Well, any site with revenue from advertising. I’m on OSNews reading an article about the latest BSD or distro with a nice big Windows add along the right side. The ads are fed from a third party to the website and generate content based on the words in the article and cookie “research” already done against my browser.

I could see a similar result from LinDVD or Hulu pages. They are movie related and selling space on the page. A third party advertiser buys the space and ads are fed based on whatever the content suggests as most applicable. For DVD player software, that could be “watch here free” ads.

Granted, it doesn’t help anyone when a legitimate media player is all but sideswiped by ads for illegitimate media sources.

This is probably another whole topic – but:

In reply to Hulu

I think the problem with internet ads is they’re not “vetted” by anyone. Automatic linking tools are set up, people plug in the ads sites sign up to host the ads, and no one is actually checking content. The answer to your concern, Neon, is simply to have people watching the ads and blocking questionable or inappropriate ones.

But Dumphrey – you’re right. Unfortunately, when it comes to making a decision that favors the civil rights of citizens, or one that favors the deep-pocketed corporate interests of their lobbyist groups – it seems that our Government has become highly predictable in what they will pick in the era of the perpetual Steamboat Willie copyright Act.

If winning the war on drugs suited a very major corporation with lots of influence in D.C., how quickly would civil rights be out the door?

it isn’t ATI or NVidia’s fault

In reply to 1 Way That Linux is an Epic Fail

I have systems running GNU-Linux with both brands, older and newer chipsets and never have those issues.

It’s actually the fault of the Ubuntu developers, they are incompetent.

I have old laptops, old crt monitors, even an old flat screen display, and they all just work, correctly, “out of the box”.

only one system ever gives me any grief with a device driver, and it’s the oldest laptop, a Dell Inspiron 3000, that sound needs to be manually configured with sndconfig, then the actual bitrate specified as well. That particular issue has been with every inspiron system I’ve used, other dell systems it doesn’t happen with.

edit for typos

I’ll come back to this later

In reply to it isn’t ATI or NVidia’s fault

But I do think that Jaqui is probably right. There seems to be a problem with the Ubuntu developers specifically, especially with video driver and wifi support, broadly speaking.

Now, I know some clown up there went, “I have a Nvidia GPU and it worked FINE out of the box for ME – so it must be YOU”. There is always one. The point is, that this is WELL documented across a lot of Ubuntu forums, and there are a lot of people far more loyal to *nix than I am who are a lot more upset about it. I didn’t just come in here with my guns half-cocked without doing any research. To wit, Palmetto, the HCL for Ubuntu would say that my machine was a GO – but it isn’t.

And this is different from say, Vista, where an OS was released before it had all of its driver support lined up. No, Ubuntu has had broken support for a broad range of GPUs for several different revisions now.

The problem isn’t just that it is broken, or just that it is such a MAJOR thing that is broken (*video resolution*. I mean, come on) – it is that it has been broken for so long, and the issue seems to be ignored. Ubuntu’s fix-response policy seems to be, “Maybe if we ignore the problem, it will go away”.

In any case, Jaqui, the problem is that Ubuntu is VERY high profile *nix. It gets the majority of the press right now, and is probably the most visible to those outside of the *nix community. Those people are going to base a lot of their *nix opinion on experience with Ubuntu.

So it really *is* a *nix COMMUNITY problem.

Which is another thing the *nix community needs to realize. If a major disto has significant problems, in the eyes of the general public, it reflects poorly on *nix in general. That is, people who are considering “a switch” and hear horror stories about a particular distro of *nix aren’t likely to consider a DIFFERENT distro of *nix. They’re likely to go OS X. (Well, which IS a different distro of *nix, but you understand what I mean). As a community, all of these distros are tied together and influence and relfect on each other.

Which is too bad, because I agree, the Ubuntu developers are releasing highly flawed product right now.

Retraction.

In reply to I’ll come back to this later

My apologies, and I’ll edit that out of my original post.

The clown

In reply to I’ll come back to this later

I’m a clown? But then I’m also a lawyer… So a whole lot of people would say both things go together!

All I was saying, is that you have a problem while others don’t. And stuff like this also happens on windows, like it or not. AS for Linux, I’m having fun using it right now, doesn’t mean I won’t switch back to windows if I have an itch to, an OS is NOT a religion to me.

It’s also my experience that if you look hard enough, you will always find someone unsatisfied about something. You will always finds experts with contrary opinions (court experts especially).

So maybe we aren’t meant to agree, me being an ESL Clown and all! Not that I take offense, names are usually thrown by obviously frustrated people. JUST KIDDING! I’M A CLOWN REMEMBER?

Anyway, I’m sorry that my words implied that you were the problem. It’s not what I meant to say, but after reading again, that’s what it sounded like. What I really meant is “S..T happens”, some times it works, sometimes it doesn’t. Kind of like life in general I would say… in fact that’s why lawyers exist!

A couple of things

In reply to The clown

Palmetto, no retraction needed. I mean, HCL lists, MS or Linux, are just a – I dunno, “escape hatch” for support issues, generally. I mean, Apple has the ultimate HCL list. “Our OS “only” runs on OUR hardware”. And that DOES work well for them. But beyond that – I think it is just a part of the nature of these debates that people look for weakness is other’s arguments and take a stab at one idea or another. If we started retracting EVERY time one of our ideas got refuted, we would spend more time correcting and retracting than moving ahead.

CLOWNboy – A Lawyer and a clown, huh? That sounds like the background for a particularly disturbing horror film.

Actually, I wasn’t refering to you SPECIFICALLY as a clown. I was lumping you in with a group of Linux Defendarati that I generally perceive as clowns. I’m really looking for something more interesting than faboy/fanboi as an “ad hominem” attack against Linux advocates. Just evolving my rhetoric. As a lawyer, I’m sure you can understand the motivation behind this.

The thing is, you wouldn’t hit the courts to argue a trial without first brushing up on your relevent case law, now would you? Nope – you’re a good lawyer, and you spend HOURS and HOURS of (billed) research hitting the books for every case you represent.

In this case, though, you haven’t done your basic research before coming into my courtroom for the trial of the century against Linux. Shame. Because a simple search will show LOTS of people complaining RIGHTEOUSLY about this problem. As a matter of fact, if Ubuntu COST anything and was used for anything IMPORTANT, there would probably be talk about class-action lawsuits at this point. God knows if Microsoft released a product this fundamentally flawed, there would be.

I’m just the voice of *nix Reason – fighting the righteous fight here on Tech Republic in the face of legions of biased, Linux fanboy content contributors. Content contributors who are trying to mislead people into abandoning the superior solutions offered by Microsoft – based on false promises that a free, grassroots, unpolished, unorganized OS made by socially awkward, basement dwelling coders in their spare time (which is ANY time they’re not at work), can offer them some significant advnatage over industry established and supported standards like Win32.

I’m the whisper of truth among the roar of lies that is Tech Republic.

(I’ll also admit, I love it when my anti-Linux screeds are more active according to the TechRepublic “hot-topic” window on the homepage than the pro-Linux screeds that the site content authors have recently published. Not for any narcicistic reason, but for an aulturistic one. No one needs to be reading their inflammatory, purposefully controversial, misleadingly labeled, tired and rehashed articles – when there are meaningful things that could be discussed n relevence to Linux evolution. Some may label me a Linux-hater, but my discussions are all geared toward things that genuinely could IMPROVE Linux. The site-authors generally just want to have a big Linux love in while prematurely calling Vista “another Windows ME”).

Lastly

In reply to A couple of things

Don’t worry about the clown thing, I like a good fight, even when it’s dirty. Being a lawyer, I’m also used to be the target of many jokes… thankfully I have a sense of humor, distorted as it is.

No, I admit to not having made any particular research on the subject, but then I wasn’t being paid… call it a professional psychological sickness! no money = no research! 😉

What’s worse, I use windows at the office. I don’t have a choice because of a “lawyer case management” software. I actually like windows too, for many reasons, as I don’t like it because of MS itself.

Finally, nope, didn’t think you were particularly a linux-hater, just one pissed off guy. My, advice is simple, take a deep breath! (away from the crap, maybe in the woods or something, it does wonders)

Comfy up there on that cross?

In reply to A couple of things

“I’m just the voice of *nix Reason – fighting the righteous fight here on Tech Republic in the face of legions of biased, Linux fanboy content contributors. … I’m the whisper of truth among the roar of lies that is Tech Republic.”

Struggle a little bit; when your thorn and nail wounds scab over, the blood doesn’t flow as dramatically as you might like.

Dude…

In reply to Comfy up there on that cross?

Just do me a favor and poke me a couple of times with that spear. Right near the ribs ought to do fine without being too immediately mortal of a wound.

Being a Microsoft martyr is tough work.

Here, have a nice glass of warm vinegar.

In reply to Dude…

Later we’re going to play on-line poker for your clothes.

A good Japanese spearsman

In reply to Dude…

.. could get upwards of seven or more jabs in without being immediately lethal. Crusifiction sucks.

Thanks but…

In reply to Dude…

I think I’m going to pass on the offer of a game of man-on-man strip poker with the guy from South Carolina, if it is all the same to you.

Unless there are some Southern Belles attending that I am not aware of…

🙂

dc,

In reply to Dude…

If they were present, I’d be playing for their clothes, not yours. If you’re not interested, I’ll tell the banjo players to quit tuning up.

think I’ll pass

In reply to Dude…

The last time I got invited to a game of spin the bottle family love, it wasn’t worth becoming an honorary cousin.

Shades of Deliverence…

In reply to Dude…

You’re not in South Carolina by way of West Virginia, by any chance, Palmetto? 🙂

She was the perty’st apelation doll

In reply to Dude…

.. I ever was related too.

(gah.. I’m going to be on this line of jokes all day)

A question dcolbert

In reply to A couple of things

are people experiencing this mostly on Dell hardware? Or on commodity parts as well?
I ask because Dell is famous for Dell-izing hardware such as video cards and sound cards to only work right with their drivers and motherboards.
I guess they still do this… all my Linux is running on old or custom built hardware.

Commodity versus Dell-ized hardware

In reply to A question dcolbert

My experience has all been with DIY commodity hardware – but I didn’t see any real clear indication on the forums to indicate the rhyme or reason of other people experiencing this issue.

For me, the “insult to injury” part is that this particular desktop is an older AMD machine that I picked up along the way that originally came with an ATI video card in it. When Ubuntu 7.04 generated significant hype, in particular regarding Compiz and the Desktop cube I decided to dust this machine off and check it out and give Linux another chance. Massive amounts of frustration ensued. Finally, rather than fight with it, I came across a Nvidia video card and pulled out the ATI, popped in the Nvidia – and started encountering problems.

About that time, the Eee PC came into my life, followed shortly thereafter by the Lenovo S10. I ended up spending quite a bit of time on both of those platforms, really fighting with Ubuntu quite a bit through to 8.10, but ultimately getting it running relatively well on the Eee PC and VERY well (but unnecessarily) on the S10.

Once I got done with this adventure (during which I improved my Ubuntu experience significantly, though still not approaching my experience with Debian) – I went back to the desktop machine. It was at this point that I realized that in fact the Nvidia problem was probably every bit as bad if not WORSE than the original ATI problem that I had turned to Nvidia to resolve.

At which point, as pointed out, I felt my relative discontent for Linux in general grow to a new level of disillusionment and disgust.

At this point, I’ve been doing some extensive by-hand VI and Gedit modification of the xorg.conf file, inputing horizontal and verticle refresh numbers by hand and modifying the supported display configurations and sync as well. Not only has this STILL failed to deliver the results, but this goes FAR beyond the skills that a “It Just Works” *nix distro should require.

Why is there no GUI tools for what your changing

In reply to Commodity versus Dell-ized hardware

???
It would not be beyond what the Joe could learn with a simple help file and a visual tool on what to do.

ATI Video cards used to install with a help windiow that said “Click here to start your display propertise”
Then it showed a picture of the settings tab, and said to click advanced.
It then walked you through with pictures how to install it so any idiot could do it.

Why can Ubuntu not do this?

Thats pretty much what

In reply to Commodity versus Dell-ized hardware

I expected. Ubuntu will at least load network card drivers on Dell machines by default during install… which windows does not do most of the time.
The hand editing of xorg files isa major step back in time… I understand your frustration there.
I have not experienced to many problems with video issues lately in linux, except for having to disable compriz defaults at one point, since it was black screening my machine on boot (ati 1300 agp card). But, I tend to not use any real eye candy at all. As long as I can get email, play back some video, listen to music, and browse the web, im happy.
As for “it just works” that statement is a lie for any OS. None of them Just Work.
It all comes down to what you want, and what work you are willing to put into making it happen.
I prefer straight Debian over Ubuntu. it takes more work to get it “just right”. But it feels more stable and seems to have fewer weird bugs, and doesn’t default to a non-standard dash shell. Which can cause many shell scripts to run with weird results.

Nvidia GUI

In reply to Commodity versus Dell-ized hardware

There is a nvidia-settings or nvidia-config that calls a X gui configuration panel for the Nvidia drivers… you have to download the package and install it seperately, even if you’ve installed and are using the Nvidia restricted drivers. That was my FIRST step in my trail of tears through Google in seeking the solution to THIS Ubuntu issue. But it was a path well worn by many footprints before mine.

But the Nvidia applet is pulling the settings from somewhere else, presumedly the xorg.conf file – and if the auto detect is max resolution of 800×600@60Hz – well, that is going to be the maximum you can select there.

The thing I’m running into though is that changing xorg.conf isn’t fixing it, either. I still get the 800×600@60hz max. Actually, that is the default detected with the Open Source driver. When I go to the restricted Nvidia driver, it drops down to 640×480@60hz.

It seems that for some people running the Nvidia GUI control applet does fix the problem, for others, they have to modify xorg.conf with the correct settings, and for still others, nothing seems to do the trick. It also sounds like X is moving away from the xorg.conf file and has something else doing video mode detection – and that this may be part of the problem. And the resolution differs by monitor and card – but inevitably, it isn’t optimal resolution or refresh – and it always seems to err on the side of being way BELOW the optimal configuration. No one is having problems with it putting it at too high of a resolution and refresh.

Once it all gets sorted out, I’ll probably reinstall with that release and be fine with it.

But if I had a pressing reason to get an OS installed and working NOW, today, for actual productivity purposes – I’d use a copy of Win XP and be done with it.

To whoever mentioned this: I like Windows too, even Vista. I use it every day. But additionally, I don’t have any problem with Microsoft. They’re just a business, and on a relative scale, I’d say they’re far more benevolent than say, Sony, Apple or Nintendo – three companies that constantly abuse not just their partners, but their consumers, and seem to get no flack for it. Microsoft, on the other hand, is responsible for a digital economy that has benefited almost everyone on this site in a tangible way. I don’t get that…

But that is a political and ideological side-track for another post – and I’m really not interested in THAT fight… We might as well argue God versus Allah versus Buddah.

maybe your problem is Ubuntu?

In reply to 1 Way That Linux is an Epic Fail

This distro seems to work well with multimedia.

I’ve suggested Mandriva and PCLinuxOS in the past already.

If one distro does not work for you, you have the freedom choose another or none at all. 🙂

In all fairness

In reply to maybe your problem is Ubuntu?

I am quite content with Freenas 6.8 built on FreeBSD 6.8.

But this is the kind of thing that *nix is very well suited for. It is almost a server appliance. I’m evening running the OS off of a 128mb USB bootable thumbdrive, so basically the “Firmware” is “hardware embedded” – just like a good NAS appliance.

And like I said, once I got everything worked out with the eee PC, I decided to stay with Ubuntu on that. Now that I’ve fixed all the annoying trivial little problems, for most of my needs, it DOES just work.

This isn’t about why it fails for me. It works for me. This is why it fails at some of the implied goals of the OS. Granted, Ubuntu as an organization never really claims directly, “we’re out to REPLACE Win32 as a desktop OS”. This is really something that – well, mostly you see journalists at Linux Fanboy websites (and the fanboys themselves) fantasizing about.

I can’t argue against improvement

In reply to In all fairness

If it is really a political decision to not address obvious things like GPU support then that’s kind of sad. For something like a pure GNU certified free operating system, sure.. for something like Ubuntu that is suposed to have all those binary blobs available for the first time user; it should be fixed.

The last few discussions you’ve started just seem like your putting more effort into being angry about something than actually finding a solution for the frustraition. Seems like a good time to suggest some other options well suited to desktop use.

On the topic of FreeNAS, it’s been on my list for a long while now. I’m torn between a house server with cold-swap drives and a full strength PSU and a NAS appliance with hot-swap, raid and NAS specific functions.

On the big box, I can use FreeNAS or any other *nix distro (probably Debian of not a BSD). I get the flexability of adding in whatever features I want like native iTunes protocol support.

On the little box, I get hot-swap drives in raid 5 + 1 spare or similar and a nice small PSU. I’ve yet to find a four bay NAS that provides https admin forms let alone access to iptables so I can deny all and allow what IP should have access. Smartvault is back on the top of my wishlist with the Freedom9 in second place.

Freedom9 provides raid5 across three drives plus a fourth drive kept dormant as a spare for when one of the raid5 three fail; that’s cool. http admin forms only and limited support for user access; username and group but no “IP’s to allow” function. Worse still, it has about six open ports that you can’t close off or disable.

Smartvault, I’ve not had a chance to look at the firmware interface. It doesn’t provide the raid5+1spare but https admin forms would trump that lacking feature.

Well

In reply to I can’t argue against improvement

I do get upset with Ubuntu – when it comes so close in so many ways, and then turns around and lets me down. I’d like to be able to rely solely on Ubuntu… not find something *nix that works on my netbook, find a different distro that works on my spare desktop, etc. etc… The ideology claims also get under my skin…

And also, again – I like mocking the guys on here who write Linux-porn fantasy pieces where “Linux Finally Takes Over The Effin’ World, Dude”!

“Dear Tech Republic Letters to the Editors, I never thought I’d have a reason to write you, but recently I had an experience that was so mind blowing I just felt that I *had* to share it with someone. Now, I’m a pretty normal guy, I don’t generally get into anything freaky or outside of the normal and stick to the typical Win32 OS and app kind of experience – but recently I met this new Linux Live-CD release and man, talk about having something change your religion! Especially once it introduced me to its hot cousin FreeBSD and I found out that they liked to exist in homogenous environments!”

My apologies to “Penthouse Letters to the Editors”….

Re: NAS devices. The problem with most of the SoHo NAS devices is that their gigabit support isn’t up to speed. You need a lot of horsepower to push through gigabit data throughput, at all points along the data bus. Most SoHo NAS devices are built on strongarm or other similar embeded platform motherboards. Even the Intel Atom doesn’t have enough juice for gigabit throughput.

If you’re planning on having a 1Tb+ gb NAS and pushing large files like home video and DVD .iso files to it, you’re going to want gigabit performance – so you’re going to want something built around at least a P4 core.

That was my experience, anyhow and why I gave up on the SoHo NAS packages and enclosures. The ones that said they were gigabit capable, reviews all said “no way”.

I get between 250mb/450mb from my FreeNAS box, which is about as good as one can expect on a typical home copper gigabit network – but it sure beats getting 100mb max when I’m trying to move a 35gb raw AVI file around the network.

router would remain a bottleneck

In reply to Well

Good things to keep in mind. I was planning for mostly a repository. music plays fine over upnp though slow to load the initial one. There would be benefit in playing the video media directly from the NAS. My nf7-s would have plenty of power to push gig networking. Damn power bill though.

Network

In reply to Well

I’m running all gb switches on my internal network. Unmanaged, SoHo grade. They’re not the BIGGEST bottleneck in my line-speed tests.

I hate to admit it, but the BIGGEST bottleneck for raw linespeed are the FreeBSD and Linux boxes, generally – even with the Intel ProSet gb NIC. Win32 is second, and the most optimized line-speed comes from my ass-old G4 Mac, which can get a linespeed of nearly 750Mb/sec – which approaches my best Enterprise gigabit speeds, consistently. Doing research, this seems consistent with what other people are experiencing. Mac Gb nics achieve nearly Gb performance. Win32 is far less well optimized for Gb, and FreeBSD and Linux have really fallen behind. (With FreeBSD actually doing WORSE, currently, than Linux).

Of course, the G4 has PATA drives that can’t pump data out across the network nearly that fast. But if it could, the LINEspeed would be ready to handle it. 🙂

But yeah, all of this is only of any value inside my network.

I can relate

In reply to Network

My little bastion of network sanity exists inside the ISP’s gateway too.

Im running freeNAS as well

In reply to Well

but over 100mb, havent made the jump to Gbit yet. Copying files to the Nas is indeed slow depending on size, but they play back across the network with no issue at all. Of note to some is the ease that freeNAS has in playing with active directory, if you want to use it for AAA.
Im running it on an old Gen 1 Athalon XP64 (2.2 ghz) with a gig of ram and sata 1 drives. The wire speed is definitely my bottle neck.
Good to know about the gig speed performance before I make the jump. Doesn’t sound like it would really hurt me at all, even 400 sustained would be what, a 430% increase? (avg about 75 sustained mb atm I think).
Is the reduction in (advertised) wire speed in the net stack or the driver you think? 450 out of 1 gig is way to low to just be “overhead”.
Out of curiosity, is it cat5 or cat6 cable?

gb

In reply to Im running freeNAS as well

I’m using 5e and Cat6 – although after I invested, I went back and tested over regular cat5 – and saw no significant degradation in line speed there – so if you have Cat 5 cable infrastructure at home, I’d TRY that first before ripping it out and replacing it.

I’ve got to be careful. My highs have been 450-ish sustained on highly tuned systems in carefully controlled tests.

My real world average is more like 250 sustained. Still 25% utilization of gb is still a heckuva lot faster than 100% utilization of 100mb. 🙂

The reduction is multi-layer. The stack contributes, the driver contributes, the hardware contributes and even the higher level protocols (FTP versus SMB/CIFS, for example) contribute.

But so far, oddly enough, the BIGGEST loss appears related either directly to the driver or the hardware. IntelPro Set gb desktop adapters are your best bet. Stay away from Realtek, Marvell, or any other gb NIC manufacturer.

Make sure you’ve got offloading enabled in the driver.

In my experience, the limitation is very unlikely to be in your bus – so PCI should be fine – you don’t NEED PCI-x. Other things are going to be struggling to pump the data through at the gigabit speed – like your disk subsystem, your processor, or your ram. I guess if you can get Intel PCI-x gb NICs at the same price, once the REST of your system catches up, your NIC will be ready for whatever you throw at it. With regular PCI, you’re sharing the bus, and that could present problems down the road.

Finally, FreeBSD has some documented issues with SMB/CIFS that aren’t addressed in the current 6.x versions of FreeNAS, and I can’t speak to if 7.x will actually address those issues. FreeBSD gets the WORST SMB performance of any *nix on a homogeneous network. For the largest files, to get the highest sustained rates, rather than drag and drop through SMB, you’ll want to ftp the files over – if you want the FASTEST speed possible.

If you have any other questions, drop me a line. I did a ton of research on this, and I’d be glad to share what I learned.

To be honest

In reply to gb

none of my files tend to be bigger then a few hundred megs, and I move them infrequently, so like you said, even 25% of a 1 gig connection is a huge improvement over full use of 100megs.
All my lines are very short, maybe 75 feet for the longest, all cat5. I doubt I will have many problems there.
The nic driver is the interesting part, I will have to see what chip the mobo is using, its gig Ethernet built onto a Gigabyte motherboard.
I actually had purchased a netgear 1TB nas at one point ($750) which was returned in a few days. It was pure junk. Its transfer speeds were less then freenas, and its management interface was painfully slow to load.
the 256 Mb of ram and sub-sub-par processor most likely had something to do with that.

Any idea how debian would do smb/cifs wise? version 5 stable came out on the 14th…

On board

In reply to gb

Unless it is Intel, you should disable it and go with an Intel chipset – although this isn’t from my direct research, just what I read on review sides like Tom’s Hardware. Now, interestingly, the Intel integrated GB chipset is supposed to go through the bus, which should be a bottleneck, but the reviews said it consistently performed better than even PCI-x 1 Intel nics.

Yeah, I bought a WD WorldBook gigabit NAS device, and it was lame. Couldn’t support sustained 100mb transfer rates, let alone the gigabit it claimed to. Poorly designed and executed.

I considered this for a brief time, but I don’t think the performance gain would be THAT much, and the setup and administration headache would be far greater – not to mention, you wouldn’t get the cool FreeNAS custom oriented features. I figured for the loss in SMB throughput, I’d pay the FreeBSD performance tax.

Don’t hate or flame me…

In reply to maybe your problem is Ubuntu?

but I like windows. Works absolutely fine for me. Even Vista…

Me 2

In reply to Don’t hate or flame me…

Though I hated Vista, In general I have no problems with Windows. Its Microsoft I hate.

Yeah, but we’ve already determined that I hate you,

In reply to Me 2

and vice versa. 😀

I’m pretty sure your hate is unjustifyable

In reply to Yeah, but we’ve already determined that I hate you,

Just like your existance 😀

Of course it’s not justifiable; very little hate is.

In reply to I’m pretty sure your hate is unjustifyable

But that’s getting too philosophical for this superficial space cadet.

stick with it then

In reply to Don’t hate or flame me…

You’d be crazy to switch away from it if all your needs are covered unless there was some other benefit. My particular illness is exploring different platforms which makes “because it is different” a perfectly valid justification. I wouldn’t recommend someone else change their platform without good reason for doing so though.

Me too

In reply to stick with it then

I actually like the challenge of playing with a new OS and the grass ALWAYS looks greener on the other side to me.

I remember the first time, as an Amiga 2000 user, that I saw Windows 3.1 on a .28 VGA monitor and went, “ooooh… pretty”.

And I’ve done it countless times since. Cell phones, PDAs, Netbooks… various Mac OSes, All the different Win32 OSes, Solaris and CDE, Linux, FreeBSD…

I’ve got to check them all out.

But with Linux in particular, RedHat .rpm package management was such a nightmare and Debian apt was so pleasant that I kind of developed an aversion to particular Linux DISTROS. Debian and Debian derivatives with apt based package management are my clear preference – which at this point may be an unreasonable bias.

I installed my 3.11 last week.

In reply to Me too

I finally found all my 3.11 diskettes and installed it on the Dos VM. Now I really have to find a VMware NIC dos driver and tcp/ip stack. I’d add in my old BBs if I could route the VMs com port out to a ssh deamon.

For now, 6.22 and 3.11 start up in under a second on a quad core. I was thinking of setting up a ramdisk but I don’t think I can actually get noticeable load performance. The filesystem is already loading it into ram too I guess.

I haven’t flashed a mobile phone but the N810 means being able to boot a few versions of Maemo, Debian, Android and some other platforms under Maemo hosted emulators.

There seems no end to this particular puzzle. Eventually you get the lock open but mucking with computers always leads to other tangents.

Not that I’ve ever done it but…

In reply to I installed my 3.11 last week.

Although it is technically illegal under the DMCA, I hear softmodding original Xbox consoles is a very interesting and rewarding for people interested in “mucking around in different OS and hardware platforms”…

🙂

“which at this point may be an unreasonable bias. “

In reply to Me too

no, red hat rpm management is such a horrid cludge. Apt is superior in every usability standpoint.
But I share your bias 🙂

Nice to see the opinion shared

In reply to “which at this point may be an unreasonable bias. “

Because one of my FIRST big disappointments with Linux was when there was so much buzz about RedHat and how superior the Redhat rpm system was, and 9 times out of 10 I’d find an install leading to a chain of unmet dependencies that would eventually lead to source that needed to be compiled, and even then, once compiled, when you tried to do a make_install you would get a notification:
“This version of annoying.lib conflicts with the currently installed version. In order to continue, SAMBA, Xfree86, GNOME, Kernel 2.4.6.0 and TrueType Fonts will be uninstalled and the entire contents of /etc will be securely deleted. Continue? /….”

I’d sit there thinking,

“How can they possibly think this is an IMPROVEMENT in the direction of Microsoft style application setup?”

But it has been years, and I’ve never really looked very far back into Redhat .rpms.

arpm can be very nice

In reply to Nice to see the opinion shared

Mandriva uses urpmi. My understanding is that it’s simply a wrapper for the rpm programs. However it works, it manages .rpm like “rpm” should have originally. Updates, dependencies.. not a problem.

I do remember rpm hell though. With Redhat, it was to the point where I only downloaded .src.rpm so I could compile out the binary .rpm installs. This confirmed that all dependencies where in place else the src.rpm wouldn’t rebuild. F’ing painful.

My RPM experience in SuSE and Redhat made me hate nix for a very long time

In reply to Nice to see the opinion shared

Took like 30 different downloads to get Firefox to work, then I wanted to open jpeg files, more stupid RPM’s, want to play MP3? More stupid dependencies.

Urpm is another beast altogether

In reply to Nice to see the opinion shared

my issue with red hat is not the package format, but the software that manages and automates install and dependency meeting. (iirc PCLinux uses apt with rpms). Does it really need to scan all repository package headers every time you download any package? There are some packages to “update” this behavior, but honestly, Fedora offers me nothing I cant get with more familiarity and (perceived?) stability elsewhere.
CentOS (and I presume RHE) have no issues if you stick to the official repositories and avoid trying to turn it into a multimedia box. But, I prefer the Debian feel, so I keep using that

just one of the reasons I moved away from Red Hat

In reply to Nice to see the opinion shared

Granted, i was young at the time so a key reasons was RHE, a business distro, dropping simple mp3 support and similar features that I, a home distro install, needed.

The constant hell of Red Hat RPM was a big part of it too though.

Apt and Aptitude are fantastic. I’ve almost moved to PCLinuxOS just to have Apt-get, RPMS and the draketools in one install. urpmi, great. rpmdrake, great. Fedora, seems to be much improved. Old school Red Hat RPM.. broken.

i agree

In reply to maybe your problem is Ubuntu?

Maybe it’s a Gnome issue and not a *buntu issue.

I run Kubuntu on 4 different boxes of varying tech with nVidia chipsets ranging from the 400-series to the 9800-series. I have no issues with it.

8800 gpu ticking along happily here

In reply to i agree

I realize it’s not much use to someone who is having grief with the GPU but no problems here with nVidia 8800. I know the pain well though after years of Mandriva and ATI.

(found my mandriva 2005 dvd last night while packing up some stuff)

Heh…

In reply to 8800 gpu ticking along happily here

At least YOU acknowledge that the “Well, it works fine for ME” response isn’t the most heart-warming for the people who it IS a problem for.

🙂

I’m on the recieving end of it for other issues (nt)

In reply to Heh…

nt

I think we can get pretty granular

In reply to i agree

Palmetto said elsewhere in this thread that it is a known Linux issue not isolated to Ubuntu.

Maybe it is a *nix issue?

Maybe it is a X issue.

The one thing it isn’t is a Win32 issue. Win32 does just fine with Nvidia and ATI drivers and the majority of potential monitors/displays out there, too. (relatively, in the case of ATI, anyhow).

The forums that I looked at were all Ubuntu forums, although I did notice complaints and followed a couple of them regarding the same basic problem for some forums dedicated to other distros, during my Google search.

Not really the point, though, is it?

What about this Ultimate Distro

In reply to maybe your problem is Ubuntu?

That Jack Wallen is talking about in another post here.

It sounds interesting to me. Anyone have any personal experience with it?

thoughts on your submission

In reply to 1 Way That Linux is an Epic Fail

[i]The #1 way that Linux has traditionally been an epic fail is that the Distro Du Jour of the week, month, or year creates all of this hype around it – in particular, among the more irresponsible fanboy Linux journalists. Inevitably, this hype proposes that this may be the week, month, year, decade, century, epoch or whatever when Linux will finally replace Windows.[/i]

Well, if you objectivly look at Windows vs. Linux in regards to anticipatory aspects:

At least people are anticipating the day that Linux overcomes Windows in what it offers as a whole. It shows in the download statistics for Linux distros and their increase over the past 5 years. People are looking to a good, solid alternative to Windows at less cost…both in the home and in business.

How many people do you see anticipating the next big release of Windows nowadays? Not really many. IT departments run from upgrades after Vista. And, proof is in the fact that Microsoft has been forced to move XP support and OEM distribution of it out 2 years past when they would like to have ended it.

So, I see a flaw in it being an epic fail that people are always wanting more from Linux and ready for it. I think it’s good that the horde of Linux “fanboys” grows by the day.

[i]The Linux defederati like to explain that it isn’t the *nix community’s fault that ATI is being a bogart with their source-code *and* releasing “bad” drivers that don’t work.[/i]

And, they’d be right.

If ATI will not properly release a driver for its video card to correctly work with Linux, you should not lay blame on the OS distributor. Linux is open source, and ATI could get real Linux programmers in all day to write good drivers.

And as long as ATI refuses to release their driver source code, the Linux community won’t be able to help them.

Btw, I’m sorry you’re having so many problems with it. I have used nVidia for years, and haven’t once had an issue with a default install of Kubuntu.

[i]But it seems to me, PRETTY bold, to have the Motto that your OS “Just Works” when your OS has SIGNIFICANT issues with not just the number 2 Graphic Chipset manufacturer in the world, but with the #1 Graphic Chipset manufacturer, as well.[/i]

As I said, I haven’t had this issue. And, I run nVidia cards in PCs ranging from the AMD K6-3 500 to a shared boot Phenom 2.5GHz box.

I’m not sure what’s causing your problem.

[i]Another thing that drives me nuts – Surfing the forums for answers, I saw all kinds of people clearly speaking ESL (English as a Second Language) to OTHER ESL speakers trying to explain and help resolve the problem, and effectively being two ships passing in the night. The person ASKING wasn’t able to clearly explain the problem with their broken English, and the person trying to ANSWER wasn’t able to understand OR provide the correct answer. After several exchanges of happy-happy-going-nowhere-pidgin English between the two, the thread would die – and no one would pick it back up.[/i]

Have you seen MS’s forum and knowledgebase articles lately?

A) The English is poor and the spelling often wrong. Plus, try calling MS’s help support. You get people from/in India 2/3 of the time you can not understand…just like Dell and Toshiba.

B) Finding anything in MSDN/Knowledgebase is like wandering a maze drunk and high on acid. Too much clutter, not enough clarity.

And with the advent of offshoring/outsourcing jobs, employers have found markets of American-educated people in countries with lower cost of retention. Hence, you’re gonna get the communication issue. It’s a fact of IT life, thanks to your businessworld “streamlining” in the 90s and allowed to disregard the well-being of their fellow countrymen to increase profits.

Welcome to America!

Remember: MSFT started in about 1977

Linux in 1991.

Give Linux 14 more years.

Jck

In reply to thoughts on your submission

No disrespect intended, but I don’t think the majority of your post brings anything new to the discussion that hasn’t already been discussed (and refuted by me) in other places in this thread, so I’m not going to address your “points” case by case, except to say that I disagree completely, and my reasons are well explained in other posts on this thread, if you care to read them. I’m not trying to be insulting – I just really feel that I’ve seen these counterpoints and successfully argued against them already.

But, I will concede that your points about MS forums and MS support are both solid hits against my anti-Ubuntu rant here in general. Your description about wandering through Technet or MS KB articles is particularly well honed. I had a vivid mental image of wandering, drunk and frying on acid, through row after row of often redunt files stored on industrial chrome shelving, in a sterile white florescent-lit warehouse sized room, with no real organization as to why one file appears in one folder and why another is somewhere else. Brilliant description.

The calibre of people giving and getting support online has slipped considerably across the board in recent years – and really Linux, Win32, Veritas/Symantec, Dell, HP, IBM… it seems like all the forms are full of bad English descriptions of problems and responses from support staff that completely misunderstand the problem as well.

So, that much is fresh and new, and more than that, you got me. As I was adding that part, I knew it was just a frustrated, borderline xenophobic little response that was more rooted in anger than in logic, and I considered removing it. The international scope of popularity for Ubuntu (especially among those nations with economic challenges), does seem to exaggerate this situation on Ubuntu forums, in my defense.

:0 Sacrilege!

In reply to thoughts on your submission

[i]Finding anything in MSDN/Knowledgebase is like wandering a maze drunk and high on acid.[/i]
:^0 :^0 :^0

I really hate guys

In reply to :0 Sacrilege!

Who can find any obscure KB article that proves their point in 10 minutes or less during an argument…

How do you DO that? Because I can search the KB for a week with very specific key words… like “Exchange Crashes During SP3 Upgrade Windows 2003” and I get back article hits like

#1 Windows 95 TCP/IP stack corruption when accessing AOL services…

WTF?!?

You’re not certified.

In reply to I really hate guys

You don’t have your “Microsoft Certified TechNet / Knowledge Base Professional” cert.

That must be it

In reply to You’re not certified.

Its only slightly more difficult to get

In reply to That must be it

(as I understand it) then a CCIE.

with annual re-certifications needed

In reply to Its only slightly more difficult to get

but only a 3 month/year study time requirements after the initial test was passed.

nothing is perfect!!!

In reply to 1 Way That Linux is an Epic Fail

it is not like that it has lots of problems and is not usable.
you can consider the theory of a coin one side is bad and the other is good.
*nix community has to face such problems because its not from the top notch when it will be it don’t have to face such “driver” problems.
i use it and i am happy and also lots of others are.
its just works for me
may be not working for you!

Right On

In reply to 1 Way That Linux is an Epic Fail

Until I see some (hella lot better) 3D support for Linux, I’m happy to spend the $300 for Vista, or now W7.

And don’t give me crap about vista, if it doesn’t work for you… sorry it just means your not a techno savvy individual that you thought you were.

Dual booting Vista Ultimate, and Ununtu. Playing EVE Online, 130FPS(avg) on vista sub 40FPS (avg) on Ubuntu. FIX THAT and you might have a tie, not a winner.

Funny

In reply to Right On

But this is the “Win32” flip-side of the Pro-Linux argument posted RIGHT before your post, Phantom.

But somehow, the previous post just seems to lack the authenticity of yours. You’re talking real numbers (FPS in 3D gaming)… The pro-linux post before yours was all about subjective things…

To the PREVIOUS poster – the problem is that it isn’t just imperfect. It is seriously flawed in some significant ways – and I’m not alone in my frustration or experience. Once again this Linux mentallity of “Perhaps the problem is YOU” – doesn’t help the Linux cause. If Microsoft had been doing a lot of “perhaps the problem is YOU” to the end user back around Win 3.11 or 95/98… we probably wouldn’t be seeing their dominance via XP, today.

I’m fine with Linux remaining a niche player, “also-ran” contender in the desktop OS arena. I make my living off of supporting Win32 environments professionally, and learning to support a whole new platform in that capacity would be a pain. So if Linux wants to remain a mediocre alternative that appeals primarily to uber-geeks and economically challenged non-domestic users – no hair off my chin.

I’ll still maintain that a majority of “users” who prefer Linux are actually “developers” – which is a far different beast than an “end-user”.

From a system admin’s perspective, end-users are uneducated and generally a PITA. Developers are arrogant, over-confident, bull-headed and often just skilled enough to create serious problems.

D

Worlds poor?

In reply to 1 Way That Linux is an Epic Fail

What do you mean “worlds poor” I have 2 Vista licenses I don’t use and I can afford Windows, but I still don’t use it. I have XP in a Virtual Machine I use some times, but Ubuntu is my main OS and I love it.

So that’s why I can’t get it to work either!!

In reply to 1 Way That Linux is an Epic Fail

Must agree with you … have tried latest versions of both OpenSUSE and Ubuntu, and had different error messages explaining why they won’t work on my new system.

Firstly I had to compile a network driver on Ubuntu – how the ^%&&$ do I do that, I’m a windows user for pete’s sake – then using OpenSUSE Grub failed. What the hell is Grub?

Yes I used google, linux forums and investigated pinpricks of light from hovels on the mountain, but couldn’t understand the answers. And when I asked for help to understand the anwers I got a plethora of long-winded, complicated answers. Oh #@$%, think I’ll stay with windows – version 7 looks much better, folks can at least get that to work on new PCs without trouble.

I’m a linux noob, but out of the box both these distros got me into more trouble than I wanted. Like windows I just want it to WORK!!

So no more linux experimentation for me – I’ll stick with windows and be very happy thanks.

“I’m a windows user for pete’s sake”

In reply to So that’s why I can’t get it to work either!!

Would that be an admission of inadiquacy?

Ok, cheap shot but I couldn’t resist.

If Windows fits your needs then stick with it. If you are interested in getting a distribution of Linux running along side then I’d be very willing to try and answer any questions causing you grief.

– What was the hardware you where installing it on.
– What is the network card type.
– What distributions did you try or was it only Ubuntu and Suse?

I would have started you off with the Mandriva 2008.1 liveCD. It tends to have better hardware support than Ubuntu (popularity is rarely a measure of quality) and you’d have had the full suite of draketools to config your system through. PCLinuxOS is the other brand name that people seem to get along with well.

The nice thing about liveCD is that you can try a number of distributions simply by rebooting from the disks. If one doesn’t like your hardware, try another.

had opposite experience

In reply to So that’s why I can’t get it to work either!!

hmm – I actually had an opposite situation.

I’m IT manager for a 300 user company. Early last year we had some new Dell PCs delivered – our first ones with Vista. We set them up and then found by end of day 1 they wouldn’t work with a certain peripheral that the staff in that area needed (driver wouldn’t work).
Dell couldn’t help.
We went to the peripheral manufacturer. We were still waiting 2 weeks later when one of my staff installed Ubuntu 7.04 on the machines – and hey presto – everything just worked.

I’m not a diehard in either the Windows or Linux camps – but I was impressed !

Linux is not trying to replace Windows…..

In reply to 1 Way That Linux is an Epic Fail

Linux is the alternative to Windows. Where (as in earlier posts) different cars are made for choice, so Linux is also for choice. Linux is not running for the number one spot (though in the server section it is), but as a good/different Operating system. How many times has a Windows system gone down with you?
Now (if you have a Linux system) how many times has a Linux system gone down with you?
I have Xandros running on my server, set it up once and it is still going after one year (no down time). I have also Windows Vista on my systems (two work stations) that talk to Xandros, i had to twice do a clean install because going through the registry would take too long, though some of it is due to my own doings as well because of testing some software. But Linux i just let it run, no Extra Virus software (already built in), no extra software for word, no IE7 or 8 (internet explorer). Just firefox.
Just like everything else with software you have to learn how it works to really appreciate it, the saying goes for Linux, if you do not have the time it will not run like you want it to, but if you have the time to read up on the DO’s and do not’s with Linux then you will be very satisfied with how Linux will just keep on running. Also it is down to choice, and i like choices (i do not like just one flavour), there are many different Linux systems out there, so if one is not to your liking then pick another one, the CHOICE is there, it is how you use it that will make the difference to how you work.

[Author]

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