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  • #2155770

    5 Reasons that Linux is a failure

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    by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

    1: Returns of Linux netbooks are currently 4:1 against XP based netbooks.

    If ever there was a platform that was suited to all the claimed and perceived strengths of Tux, it would be the low powered, no frills world of the Netbook PC. Yet consumers, by a 4 to 1 margin, are picking XP based netbooks over their Linux counterparts. This failure to leverage an opportunity when Microsoft execution has been flawed, via Vista – illustrates how far behind Linux is. Linux can’t afford to let opportunities like this slip by, but by losing the early advantage in the emerging Netbook market, that is exactly what the Linux community is doing. Losing the Netbook market, which I feel is almost a certain thing to happen, could be a critical and fatal misstep for Linux, preventing it from ever becoming a serious contender in the OS “wars”. The emergence of Netbooks is the opportunity for Linux to establish itself as a serious contender to Microsoft, and even more importantly, to establish that the OS platform is not actually important. But at present, the Linux community is letting that opportunity pass it by, which is likely to be a far bigger blunder than any mistake Redmond made with the release of Vista.

    2: The “Linux is leaner” argument is a myth.

    I’ve been saying for awhile, I can get XP running far better on a Presario 305M “subnotebook” with 128mb of RAM and a 4gb hard-drive (call it a pre-netbook) than any distro of Linux, if I want comparable features. This is a 333mhz Celeron machine. Linux bloat is as bad – if not worse than XP.

    3: Linux “Just Works” and is suitable for end users.

    The most annoying thing about this is that XP “Just Works”, a familiar claim that Linux cannot deliver on this particular box. Linux may be able to be MADE to work on it – but, why would you hassle with the OS other than for the challenge and academic reasons? I recently acquired a EEE PC, and considered sticking with the Xandros distro on it. After trying to load a simple Mp4 video and having it fail to provide audio or video despite “playing” the file, I quickly removed *nix and added Win XP. I suppose I could have messed around with Xandros for hours, days or weeks to get it to work – but instead a “click yes to install” default XP installation resolved that, and likely many more problems. Normal people do not want to spend hours messing with fine tuning and tweaking their OS to get it to do something, merely for the achievement. They want to be doing it, transparently, without having to worry about the infrastructure that allows them to be productive.

    4: Linux is more stable than Win32.

    Now, this one is difficult to address. The Linux kernel itself is undoubtedly more stable than the Win32 kernel, even today. So if you’re content just running a CLI interface and simple non-graphical applications and utilities than run from the CLI, then Linux had an advantage. But once you add Xfree86, and then a Windows Manager, and then an application that runs under that Windows Manager, you’ve added 3 additional layers of complexity to that model of simplicity, and 3 times are many opportunities for instability. KDE applications are particularily grevious offenders, in my experience – but GIMP isn’t immune. Most users don’t differentiate between where a failure occurs. Hardware, Infrastructure, OS or Application. All they know is that if something goes wrong it disrupts their productivity. So, we can split hairs on this argument, but ultimately, the perception is what is important. If Open Office is constantly crashing with a SEV error or cannot load a file correctly doesn’t matter to the end user – and they certainly don’t care if the crash occurs at the OS level or at the particular application.

    5: Linux is easier.

    Ok… so, there isn’t anybody, even the die-hard Accolytes of the Temple of Linux, who are making this claim. But that is the problem. Linux isn’t easier. It isn’t even easy. Now, some Linux proponents are willing to try to spin this, and I give them an A for effort. “Linux is harder, but it is worth it”. There are various explaination for exactly what the “reward” is. It is liberating to be free of the Microsoft Yoke. It is socially responsible to support the ideals of the *nix community. It is mentally stimulating to use an OS that is challening – it broadens your technical skills and understanding, and countless others. The one that you won’t hear is that the reward is that you can quickly, simply and efficiently be up and running productively on any task you might endeavor to attempt. Unfortunately, that is the one that the average user is interested in, and the one that Linux can’t deliver. Thus, we see a 4:1 return ratio on Linux based netbooks and a mad rush among Netbook manufacturers to move away from customized Linux platforms to WinXP and even Vista.

    With Netbooks forecast to be one of the hottest items this holiday season, with rumored deep discounting coming up this Black Friday, this really presented an opportunity for Linux to gain massive visibility into a previously largely uncracked market segment. But instead, it is more likely that this Black Friday and the following holiday season are instead going to see Microsoft dominante yet another platform while reducing Linux once again to a bit player. I’ve seen a growing lack of confidence for Linux throughout the tech community, an erosion of enthusiasim for the potential of this platform. Despite the buzz regarding cloud computing and the browser as an OS replacement – despite the arrival of powerful and useful personal convergence electronics like the iPhone, Android Phones and Netbooks – Linux has not been effective at leveraging these market changes. That failure to execute may be the swam-song of Linux – at least in regards to ever being a major player.

    None of this means that Linux is inferior. But I don’t think it is superior, either. The thing is, Linux is better for some things, and worse for others. This seems lost on many Linux advocates. Linux is not a silver bullet. Far from it. In fact, Linux is highly specialized and very well tailored to very specific needs, but woefully disadvantaged at operating in the “mean”. Linux users seem to have a real chip on their shoulder and a inferiority complex that makes them tend to overcompensate. They revel in the fact that Linux is obscure, arcane, and requires a superior intellect. They revel in the fact that Linux is somewhat counter-culture and inaccessible to the masses. Yet, the feel that Linux should be all things to all people and they constantly seek affirmation by way of comparisson to other products. They inevitably find that Linux is “superior”, although it is quite clear that this requires a form of mental yoga that often defies rational thought. In the meantime, their aggressive, condenscending attitude to anyone that won’t drink their special Kool-Aid makes theirs one of the more unpleasant communities on the internet. I’m happy for those of you who enjoy Linux and take whatever benefit, real or imagined, physical or mental, from that action. I’m glad for Linux and the competition it brings to the marketplace. The fine line exists where Linux-reality approaches untruth, where tech-journalists who are also Linux advocates stretch and distort reality. I think the flurry of anti-Vista rhetoric over the last two years or so is an example of this. I don’t think the Linux community is alone in culpability for this, either. Apple is likely the biggest culprit, having aggressively promoted a highly popular and successful campaign that often stretches the limits of truth and honest advertising. In fact, the irony of the pot calling the kettle black in Apple Mac/PC ads have often been the most amusing part of that particular campaign. The sheer balls of Apple to implicate that a Mac has better peripheral support than Win32 (by indicating that the Mac speaks to a Japanese “camera” that the PC cannot speak with) is only eclipsed by an add that implicates that Microsoft is spending huge sums of money on advertising Vista that would be better spent on improving their product. I mean really, how much has the PC/Mac campaign cost APPLE over the last 5+ years, and how much better would their product be if they had put that money into R&D? The PC/Mac ads have launched Hollywood careers, for Christ’s sake. How come rational people can’t see through the logical inconsistency of a prime-time commercial taking another company to task for running prime-time commercials? Especially a company that encourages people to think independently and critically. I’m Jack’s amused grin.

    Now, really, I think it is becoming readily more apperant that Vista has turned a corner recently, and that parallels between Vista and XP (adoption, lifecycle and stability) are appropriate and fitting. The reason I chose to post this at Tech Republic, and in this particular format, should be obvious. There are certain segments of this industry that don’t want to see the anti-Vista rhetoric die away. But the fact is, Linux has every reason and interest in acting just a ruthless and cut-throat in promoting Linux adoption as Mac or Microsoft. To that end, just like a political campaign, there is a large incentive to tarnishing the reputation of your opponent while over-estimating the value of your own (Candidate or product). That is really a fitting analogy. Both a poltical campaign and an advertising campaign have the same
    goals; to convince someone to pick one choice over another. But to those who are the target of these campaigns, it is always important to maintain a truly critical perspective and to have a nose for the hyperbole, exaggerations, and outright lies. In particular when any campaign turns “dirty”. In the case of Linux, when you look beyond the hyperbole, exaggerations and outright lies, the numbers and facts – in the case of netbooks – tell a very important and undeniable truth. Average consumers, for some reason or another, are rejecting Linux *in this segment*, by what appears to be a SIGNIFICANT margin. Now, no doubt some of the returns are based on people expecting a true laptop experience from a Netbook and being disappointed by the netbook experience. The early perponderence of Linux based netbooks probably means that the returns of Linux based netbooks are going to be skewed further. Regardless, a quick browse at Amazon or Tiger Direct shows that XP has quickly gained on Linux in the netbook segment, and 4:1 returns still indicate that a significant reason for this disparity is Linux itself. The very fact that vendors and manufacturers have so quickly adopted XP in the netbook segment would serve to illustrate that there is demand for XP and dissatisfaction with Linux in this market. The prospective Linux convert should weigh THAT factor very seriously before considering a change. Based on this fact, a prospective Linux convert should be skeptical of the claims made about the opposition. Based on all of that, it is crucial that potential Linux converts research their consideration seriously, carefully weighing all factors, before they jump. As we head into the holiday season, unless you are familiar with Linux, I would recommend that you do NOT make the jump into Linux with a brand new netbook purchase, at the very least. The numbers show that if you do, you are liable to become an unsatisfied statistic.

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    • #2982537

      I’ll take the bait

      by jmgarvin ·

      In reply to 5 Reasons that Linux is a failure

      1) You assume Linux is a single company with marketing.

      2) Citation Needed

      3) I can’t play MP4s on my Windows XP box. I have to download VLC or iTunes. The nice thing is that most distros save me that step with graphical installers that magically grab packages for you, rather than hunting on the web for it.

      4) The difference is that Linux is far more graceful when errors do happen.

      5) How is Linux more difficult for the average user? All they need is email, browser, and a word processor. Linux fills that need and does so very easily and FAR more securely.

    • #2982189

      Holy cow!

      by forum surfer ·

      In reply to 5 Reasons that Linux is a failure

      This one is gonna last for days. I like Linux and feel it is great for certain applications, netbooks in particular.

      However, you can’t deny the huge return of so many net books. Is it the consumer’s fault for not researching the product they purchased? Yes! Is it the consumer’s fault for not taking the time to learn a different OS as opposed to running back to the store for a refund? Yes! Maybe the manufacturer should put big “This is not a Windows product sticker” on the box?

      None of this is a failure for Linux or the Linux community. Speaking of the community, some out there are very helpful, polite and respectful. Others are exactly as you described. But the same thing can be said of Windows admins, network admins, programmers or DBA’s.

      Still, you can’t ignore the high return rate.

      • #2982182

        agreed

        by jck ·

        In reply to Holy cow!

        [i][b]None of this is a failure for Linux or the Linux community. Speaking of the community, some out there are very helpful, polite and respectful. Others are exactly as you described. But the same thing can be said of Windows admins, network admins, programmers or DBA’s.[/b][/i]

        Agreed. Plus, the multitude of Linux wikis and sites out there are much easier to search and research than Microsoft’s “knowledge base”.

        The high return rate sucks, but I think that’s cause new PC owners want to be lazy and play…not actually think about what they are doing.

        • #2982158

          Not completely agreeing.

          by forum surfer ·

          In reply to agreed

          All the wikis are a nice touch, yes. Most of the time I just eed a gentle nudge in the right direction, not a complete wiki. It is comforting to know they are out there in case I do need them.

          But I have zero problems searching the net for Microsoft issues and finding a solution quickly. I always find xp, vista, sharepoint, exchange, dpm, office or whatver m$ product help relatively quickly and easily. Sometimes I find the answer in the knowledge base other times on other sites. LEt’s face it….M$, Apple and *nix all have a strong web presence and countless communities to help guide us.

          And also yes…it all goes back to the consumer being cheap and lazy. They want a full fledged powerhouse laptop for $400 and it just isn’t going to happen. They buy a $300 laptop runing *nix, a handful of grade school learning games for windows and a copy of Crysis, then get mad and return it all because their kid can’t play it. Consumers are lazy and uninformed in alot of areas, but that is their right to be lazy and uninformed.

          Lol, I just think stores should have more stringent return polices. Once upon a time when you bought something you couldn’t return an item unless it didn’t work, not because it doesn’t work like you THOUGHT it did. 🙂

        • #2982107

          There’s the lazy accusation again.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Not completely agreeing.

          When consumers buy retail systems and all they’ve ever seen was Windows, they expect Windows. There’s nothing to research if you don’t know alternatives exist. It’s not an Apple, ergo it’s Windows. Apple and MS’s combined campaigns equating ‘PC’ with ‘Windows’ hasn’t helped.

          If the only cars you’ve driven have automatic transmissions, and all your friends and family have automatic transmissions, and you don’t know manual trannys even exist, are you going to ask the sales person what kind of transmission the car has? And are you going to learn to drive that manual transmission or take the car back? That doesn’t make you lazy.

        • #2983064

          Hello.

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to There’s the lazy accusation again.

          And ditto that.

        • #2982968

          interesting

          by jck ·

          In reply to There’s the lazy accusation again.

          However, most people just get a computer and don’t take the time to look into things. They just boot it, click around, and if they don’t understand something just go onto the next thing until they hear something about it.

          Initiative to learn and pursuit of knowledge about a new PC is not the foremost drive to a PC user…playing their game or surfing the net is the biggest objective.

          If you went to a car lot and saw a car you liked and wanted to drive, but then saw a manual tranmission and had never seen a car with one. Would you just move onto the next car and not ask and not get to try your dreamcar, or would you ask the salesman what it was in hopes you could drive it and get it?

          Most computer users don’t google UAC, the Vista performance analyzer, etc. They just click the OK and move on. If they did, they would have been the biggest searches on Google trends at Vista’s release.

          People are lazy by nature, especially in America where we take modern convenience and indulgences to a higher level. If we don’t have to make the time or effort to go to 5 stores and can just go to one, that’s what we do.

          Hence, why Wal-Mart is so big: people like the convenience of being lazy.

        • #2982963

          I think it does make consumers lazy

          by forum surfer ·

          In reply to There’s the lazy accusation again.

          If I spend more tha $100 on anything, I make sure I know what I’m buying. If I buy a computer/laptop, I want to know who makes the chipset, the processor, the gfx card and what os is on it. If I buy a car, I research the motor, transmissio, recalls and alot of other factors. I still say it is consumers being too lazy to research what they spend their money on. Then they get all pi$$y when it isn’t what they wanted. We live in a world where you can buy a product and return it because it doesn’t do what you thought it could. If the consumer were misinformed enough to buy it, the consumer’s fault not the reseller or manufacturer. I think we should hold people accountable to their purchases. Bought a netbook on a whim that won’t run turbo tax? Oh well…deal with it and research the purchase next time! I think it makes the consumer uninformed and too lazy to make him/herself a informed consumer concious about where they are putting their money. But again, that would be their right and they should have to face stricter return policies other than “it doesn’t do what I wanted it to do.” If it does what the box says, it is property of the consumer and non returnable imo.

        • #2968545

          So?

          by chris ·

          In reply to I think it does make consumers lazy

          what’s yer point?

          might as well have said, the sun is bright.

          I research the things I care about (computers, cars, motorcycle, insurance policies, etc) but I have never researched shoes. I just pick a pair that looks cool and try em on (like people do when they click a mouse at best buy).

          If I get home and don’t like em or they are uncomfortable I return them.

          The ability to return them is why I am comfortable giving the store my money.

        • #2982969

          indeed

          by jck ·

          In reply to Not completely agreeing.

          [b][i]Consumers are lazy and uninformed in alot of areas, but that is their right to be lazy and uninformed. [/i][/b]

          True. And, it’s my right to charge those people who are too lazy to read and too uninformed to do their own easy PC maintenance…$50 an hour to do it for them. 😉

        • #2982962

          $50?

          by forum surfer ·

          In reply to indeed

          You can’t get me out of bed for that, lol. And let’s not forget the 2 hour minimum!

          🙂

        • #2982959

          You go to bed

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to $50?

          for $50? :0

          ;\

        • #2982939

          yeah well

          by jck ·

          In reply to $50?

          You live in Vegas…higher cost of living.

          I can get a 3 bedroom house here brand new (not a foreclosure) for $95k on a 1/3 acre lot.

          Plus, I live around a lot of retired folks. Limited income here.

          As for minimum time, I can’t do that unless I’m being called out to a site. For me, I mostly work for individuals. I usually cut it down to 30 minute minimum charge. That way, it’s worth my time if it takes 10 mins to fix.

        • #2982958

          It is easy to do, though

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to indeed

          last summer I bought my boys “rockband” for their hatching day. Was in a rush, and got the PS2 instead of the Xbox360 version. Had to take it back, and didn’t hear boo about it, even though it was my fault.

          I recently won a hp mini notepad, preloaded with SuSE. It has not been a simple sit down and go experience…..

        • #2982255

          True…

          by forum surfer ·

          In reply to It is easy to do, though

          I should have mentioned that returning unopened items was ok.

          Yeah, my g/f received an acer mini as a gift with linpus linux lite or something like that on it. It’s a piece of crap! Somewhat intuitive, yet shockingly ugly. Beuty is in the eye of the beerholder I guess. Fine for websurfing or some light open office stuff. She uses office 07 at work, and she gave up on transferring files back and forth. Since she could care less about pc’s or software, I sympathize. The thing basically sits there and is used for internet surfing on the couch occasionally. And I have to admit, I giggle at the name “linpus” lol. Sounds like something a microsoft zealot would call a linux zealot on the playground in elementary school.

        • #2968543

          See, that’s too bad

          by chris ·

          In reply to It is easy to do, though

          you’d think they would have the thing fully configured and ready to rock.

          what was wrong with it?

        • #3013773

          Get the advantage from the lazy people!

          by nido_rano ·

          In reply to indeed

          I agree with it.
          But the point is missed. Most people spend a lot of money on computers that they think are the best in the market at a time. Simply because the vendor says them it is. So, the people with their new computers want to their computers almost fly. But when they realize that their pcs cannot fly, they are disappointed. The point I want to remark is that the pcs need a minimum personalizing in configuration. A minimal knowing of what a computer does. With Windows, most of the people don’t know how their machines do the jobs, and when something goes wrong they don’t figure what to do. I guess Linux breaks this habit forcing the user to know something before start with it.

          But if the people insists in not knowing anything about their machines, we can do that job for a little money…

        • #3013766

          Gods of us all, why did you dig up this zombie?

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Get the advantage from the lazy people!

          Halloween isn’t for two more days. Isn’t it a bit early to be digging up the dead, especially a corpse as volatile as this one?

        • #3013763

          Just doing my part to keep the corpse smelling fresh!

          by forum surfer ·

          In reply to Gods of us all, why did you dig up this zombie?

          Might spawn some new comments given the recent Jack Wallen posts and debates that followed.

          🙂

        • #2987036

          *NIX easier than XP? Not if you are an end user…

          by jeff.allen ·

          In reply to agreed

          I am in my 40th year in the IT industry. My intro to Unix was in 1983 when it was on a single-user graphic workstation. Since then I have been exposed to it’s various flavours etc over the years, on workstaions, servers etc, using Posix, Unix (all variations) SCO and some that I discovered hiding behind dedicated operating systems on purpose-built machines.
          In the last ten-ish years I have been working on almost exclusively Windows based products, so I have been “out” of the Unix world for a while.
          I recently decided to install Ubuntu onto my laptop, to see for one thing, how much *nix has changed (not a lot – but that’s not a bad thing).
          But was it easy? No. Was it smooth? Up to a point. How long was it before I switched from end-user mode to Unix technologist mode? – About ten minutes. Just after I downloaded an MP3 I couldn’t play. Just before I downloaded an AVI that wouldn’t play… I gave up when my attempts at Utube proved fruitless….

          As a techy I find it’s great, but as an end user?
          I WAS going to set up our home PC with Linux, but the thought of customizing it for my wife and kids to use seemlessly? Nup..

        • #2987029

          Ya, clicking on ok is super tough…

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to *NIX easier than XP? Not if you are an end user…

          If you don’t have the codec, Ubuntu will inform you then ask you if you’d like to install it…

    • #2982184

      counterarguments

      by jck ·

      In reply to 5 Reasons that Linux is a failure

      [i][b]1: Returns of Linux netbooks are currently 4:1 against XP based netbooks.
      [/b][/i]

      I would have to say this-
      The comparison is flawed because of one thing – most home users get their PC to do 2 things: internet related things…and GAMES.

      Most game makers don’t make games for Linux, i.e.- Blizzard (World of Warcraft), etc.

      Most people are either worried about finding Martha Stewart or the NFL online, or playing games (or letting their kids play games).

      If Linux had a level ground in the software industry as to application availability, it would smoke Windows for one simple reason: it’s free.

      BTW…Toys R Us (according to my co-worker) is selling the Asus Eee PC with both Linux and Windows…and he said he saw more people picking up the Linux one while he was talking to the sales person.

      [i][b]2: The “Linux is leaner” argument is a myth.[/i][/b]

      I have run Linux’s default install on a 486 with 128 MB of RAM with very little performance issue. That’s not a P7…or P6…or P5…but a 486DX2-66. You can barely run Windows 98 on that.

      If it’s not leaner, then it is surely one thing: less of a resource hog.

      [i][b]3: Linux “Just Works” and is suitable for end users.[/b][/i]

      For an “end user” is ambiguous. For an internet user, Linux is far better, is a faster install, etc.

      Most Linuxes come with browser, email, file browser and what not defaulted on your action bar. And, Linux (at least the *ubuntus) are about a 10 min install where as Windows XP takes 20-50 depending on your hardware.

      [i][b]4: Linux is more stable than Win32.[/b][/i]

      Maybe I’m a little rougher on an OS than most users…but, I’ve seen far more errors crash Windows 98/NT/XP than I’ve see crash [b]or[/b] lockup my Linux distros.

      BTW, I’ve never once had KDE3 fail on me and dump…and I have 4 machines running Kubuntu.

      [i][b]5: Linux is easier.[/b][/i]

      Easier? To setup, no. Windows is hands-down the most stupid person friendly-to-install OS around.

      However, the interface to learn to use to a) browse the web, b) to send email, c) to play multimedia, d) play games…is just as easy. It’s all point and click.

      I guess when Linux gets dumbed down enough that Joe Bob and Cletus and mama can load it with 20 mouse clicks and typin their name in…it will sell just as much.

      As for me, I’m probably going totally Linux in the next 18-24 months. I have good reports that the built-in Wine is great for playing games…so…it’s time for making the move and putting Gates and Ballmer out of my pocketbook for good.

      Nice discussion tho. Just wish I could agree with things you said.

      • #2982172

        Well said….

        by —tk— ·

        In reply to counterarguments

        Speaking of Wine, it has really come a long way since I have been using linux. I was even able to get WoW and COD4 running in it. The only downside was that it was on my LAPTOP… WoW did throw up a couple errors, but eventually I was able to get it to run…

      • #2983063

        [i]stupid person friendly-to-install OS around[/i]

        by boxfiddler ·

        In reply to counterarguments

        Arguable. Even an Ubuntu install ain’t exactly in common English. I know, I run it.
        I’m a Linx noob, who appreciates what Linux has to offer. But ain’t no way that install is ‘easier’ to the nearly PC illiterate end user. Sorry.

        • #2983058

          really?

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to [i]stupid person friendly-to-install OS around[/i]

          I do not recall Ubuntu, but PCLOS is an easy install. I dont remember having to put in my full name, address, and activating the product either.

        • #2983054

          No activation.

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to really?

          Language is an issue for total noobs. I’m pretty sure that was what I was getting at. Then again, here lately, who the fook knows.

        • #2982972

          easy to install

          by jck ·

          In reply to [i]stupid person friendly-to-install OS around[/i]

          I was saying that Windows is the stupid person friendly-to-install OS…not Linux.

          I mean…how many times have you seen Windows go “Do you want to install the Windows bootloader on drive hd0?”

          Linux will have to be more stupid-friendly for the masses to gain acceptance.

          That’s what Windows has done best…made the PC acceptable (visually) and easy (enough) to use for the general public.

        • #2982964

          Superiority Complex

          by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

          In reply to easy to install

          And it SHOULD be.

          I love the car analogies. How popular would automobiles be if they operated like a PC? Usually these are anti-Windows analogies, but heck, apply the analogy to Linux. Or how about phones, or Microwaves?

          I’m glad you take pride in being an OS-Sadist and you want your OS to punish you on a daily basis. Whatever floats your boat, dude.

          But the majority of the world, they don’t even want to know the OS exists. They want to surf, read the web, play some games, post pictures on Facebook…

          I really don’t get the “Linux is more difficult and therefore better” mentality. Linux users must have really poor relationships when they can manage to find someone to shack up with. “Something is only worth it if you really have to suffer for it”.

        • #2982932

          haha

          by jck ·

          In reply to Superiority Complex

          [b][i]I really don’t get the “Linux is more difficult and therefore better” mentality. Linux users must have really poor relationships when they can manage to find someone to shack up with. “Something is only worth it if you really have to suffer for it”.[/i][/b]

          Shacking up? I don’t shack up. Never lived with anyone in my life. I will do that when I get married.

          How many times have you been married and/or lived with someone in a non-plutonic or familial manner? 😉

        • #2982918

          Not platonic shacking up

          by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

          In reply to haha

          NEVER…

          I usually prefered them out of the house by the next morning, at the latest, before I was married.

          Some of them hung around so much, it became almost like they were living with me, though.

          🙂

          Heh… weird how this analogy is holding up, though. Because you’re right, when single, I wanted non-complex relationships without a lot of headache or hassle. The minute things started getting difficult, it was on to the next OS. Er… girlfriend.

        • #2982910

          Word of advice

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Not platonic shacking up

          “I usually prefered them out of the house by the next morning, at the latest, before I was married.”

          Once you’re married, having them out of the house by morning becomes mandatory, not preferable.

        • #2982908

          and i too…

          by jck ·

          In reply to Not platonic shacking up

          fit the analogy of my ways…

          when i get an OS, i like to know more about it than just what it looks like. i want to know how it behaves in more than casual circumstance. i want to know if it will do things for me that i need.

          i need to know if it’s high maintenance too.

          ah yes, that’s what i do with my OSes too…and the women.

          Remember…it’s usually the one thing that you don’t know about the OS/girlfriend that ends up making life miserable for you with them. lol ]:)

        • #2981800

          LOL

          by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

          In reply to Not platonic shacking up

          Heh. With my wife, the best policy is simply not to have them there in the first place. I married a crazy Italian broad. I’m afraid that could lead to national headlines and 15 minutes of uncomfortable fame of the “John Wayne Bobbit” type.

          Besides, I had my share before I was married – and I’ve come to the conclusion, the last thing I need is MORE women complicating my life even further.

        • #2968541

          Haha, yeah there is some of that

          by chris ·

          In reply to Superiority Complex

          kinda like working for something vs having it given to you.

          For me it’s the money.

          I used to steal windows (my brother would give me his old machines with windows installed) which is illegal.

          I’d bet lots of people are not in compliance with their software license, but nobody cares even if they know. (how many people use Photoshop vs how many have actually paid for it?).

          With linux you don’t have to worry about that (mostly).

          I no longer commit a felony when using my computer.

          I feel good about that.

        • #2968542

          what distro?

          by chris ·

          In reply to [i]stupid person friendly-to-install OS around[/i]

          I use Mandriva and it is far easier (and way faster) than XP.

          I know, I just had to rebuild my lappy which I dual boot (desktop at home is full linux). The winders install took about an hour, linux installed in 15 mins.

        • #3013762

          to the nearly PC illiterate end user…

          by nido_rano ·

          In reply to [i]stupid person friendly-to-install OS around[/i]

          …even installing Windows is the thoughest thing.
          I just say:
          Please press a key to enter the CD/DVD…
          Fast or complete format of the partition?
          NTFS?

          It’s easy for the PC illiterate end user?

      • #2963342

        Even some Linux distros are easier than XP to setup

        by dpresley_50201 ·

        In reply to counterarguments

        From my experience with PCLinuxOS, both 2007 and 2009, I’ve found as easy, or easier to install and setup than XP on many points. Particularly peripheral configuration, switching various services on and off and any number of tasks that require editing the XP registry to accomplish. With PCLOS, just open the Control Center then point and click. The one major caveat is setting up Samba to get my Linux box to network with my XP box. Unfortunately, that task is not for a casual user. Without Samba running, Linux and Windows don’t communicate. This is probably THE factor that causes so many people to return a Linux netbook for one loaded with XP. Just my two cents worth–cheers.

    • #2982167

      I’ll only address #2

      by jaqui ·

      In reply to 5 Reasons that Linux is a failure

      2: The “Linux is leaner” argument is a myth.

      I’ve been saying for awhile, I can get XP running far better on a Presario 305M “subnotebook” with 128mb of RAM and a 4gb hard-drive (call it a pre-netbook) than any distro of Linux, if I want comparable features. This is a 333mhz Celeron machine. Linux bloat is as bad – if not worse than XP.

      odd, my dell inspiron 3000 is a Pentium-MMX @ 266 MHz, with only 128 MB ram and it runs as fast as even a 2GHz Pentium 4 with 128 MB ram.
      and, if I was silly enough to put anything from Microsoft but win98 on the dell, it sucks bobo when it comes to performance.

      yet running mandriva 2008.1, not a problem for this ancient dell.

    • #2982166

      How often have you heard…

      by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

      In reply to 5 Reasons that Linux is a failure

      How often have you heard Microsoft respond to a failure by claiming,

      “It was the customers’ fault”.

      This is another problem with the Linux community. Some sort of lack of accountability. If someone uses Linux and doesn’t like it, doesn’t get it, it is THEIR failure, not Linux.

      4:1. I’ll say that again. For every 1 XP netbook that is returned, 4 Linux netbooks are returned. And this is the fault of the consumer?

      Well… if Microsoft was having the same problem, and they took the same approach, “Our product is fine, the users are stupid”…

      They wouldn’t be the largest software producer on the planet…. for sure.

      But… whatever…

      As far as #1 being a flawed analogy…

      These are NETBOOKS. Undoubtedly the 1 XP netbook that is being returned for every 4 Linux Netbooks is returned because it isn’t suitable for playing games. We’re talking about an Atom processor at 1.7ghz max, 1.5gb of ram max, and 160gb hard drive max. No accelerated GPU. These aren’t GAMING machines. They’re web surfing machines.

      So it isn’t flawed at all. It is a very apt comparisson. So, with games largely removed from the equation, Linux returns are outpacing XP returns 4 to 1. If games really aren’t a factor (you try playing Guitar Hero World Tour or Fallout 3 on an Atom based processor with Intel Accellerated Graphics chipset and no optical drive)then what is left? Obviously people are taking home XP based netbooks, *NOT* playing games on them, and still finding them useful… but far more people are buying the exact same netbooks with Linux, taking them home, and deciding shortly, “this doesn’t work”.

      The only common factor there is the *difference* in OS. Sorry, I’ve got to disagree with you. This is all about a fair and accurate comparisson of the public experience with the two different OSes. And Linux is clearly losing. Badly.

      • #2982163

        Did you start this solely to

        by the scummy one ·

        In reply to How often have you heard…

        show your bias to MS?
        Well, we get it.

        “This is another problem with the Linux community. Some sort of lack of accountability. If someone uses Linux and doesn’t like it, doesn’t get it, it is THEIR failure, not Linux. ”

        Who’s fault is it then? Linux’s fault? The user should look into what they are getting and what to expect. To expect Windows with a Linux msystem is just not an accurate determination.
        Besides, there are dozens and dozens of distro’s out there. If 1 does not work for a person, another may. But it is not ‘Linux’ fault if someone does not like their system.
        However, if someone does not like it, they can opt to change it. When was the last time MS listened to the customer???

        WTF is your problem anyway. You have nothing better to do than to try to bash Linux because you invested too much in MS and Vista is a failure?

        • #2982159

          My response

          by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

          In reply to Did you start this solely to

          I started this for the same reason that Jason Hiner started THIS thread:

          http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/hiner/?p=849

          Although I don’t see a post from you in that thread proclaiming Jason’s Linux bias or asking him WTF is his problem.

          Why is THAT?

          It is an interesting fact, the high return rate on Linux netbooks, that isn’t well known yet, and it is a relevent part of an ongoing dialog and debate on this forum.

          I believe the last time MS listened to the customer and changed their product was when they released Vista with much tighter security control, in response to ongoing complaints about security vunerabilities in the previous Win32 architecture. Much of that public voice they were responding to was in fact, the Linux community. Ironic.

          If were going to have these kind of discussions, there have to be some ground rules, and rule #1 would be, “What is good for the goose is good for the gander”.

          In the interest of full disclosure, I do not directly own any interest or shares in Microsoft corporation, although it is possible that I am invested in technology funds that might have investments in Microsoft at one time or another. I do own considerable stock in Intel corporation, but those have been almost always hopelessly under water since I acquired them (at employee prices, no less) and are currently at their worst in years. I have no financial interest in this debate – it is purely academic to me.

          One last thing, and I don’t have any numbers for this.

          It would be interesting to note how many people return their Linux netbook in EXCHANGE for a Win XP netbook. That would be a relevent and meaningful number. It would illustrate beyond a doubt that the NETBOOK isn’t the problem, it is the OS. AND, that *is* changing your “distro”.

          I suspect there is a LOT of that happening. People ARE picking a distro that works for them. It is called Windows XP. I think the fact that the netbook manufacturers are moving quickly to make XP available illustrates this demand. But… I have no numbers to back that claim up, so it is just hearsay.

        • #2982151

          Ok, to address the original post

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to My response

          #1 — I think (do not know for a fact) that people are buying them expecting it to be just like Windows, and when something does not install they get pissed off and take it back.

          #2 — not a myth. Many distros of Linux are much leaner than comparable MS products. So much so that older HW works fast and seems to be rejuvinized when Linux is running on it. However, not always, some distro’s are pretty bloated.

          #3 — For many things, a Linux Distro does ‘just work’. Think of a complete office suite built in, and more than 1 web browser (often there are 2)and a graphics editor (the Gimp). However, since it is free, there are no proprietary SW installed, things that need to be paid for do not show up.
          In Windows, Office is seperate, and for the good photo editing, photoshop or another expensive application is needed. And since when is .mp4 part of the standard Win install?

          #4 — ok, you got me there. I have had errors on a Linux box, usually in KDE with a 3rd party app, but not always. So I guess its just frequency of errors which is the problem. XP gives me many more errors, and often they seem to just be random. I have also had lots of problems with the Vista systems as well. But the errors are more of a personal preference, so I wont say which I think is more stable.

          #5 — I havent heard this one before. I personally think that many of todays distro’s are pretty easy, however I still had trouble with some parts.
          I think Linux is more difficult for someone used to Windows. However we often forget that Windows wasnt too ‘easy’ when we were first learning it.
          But since most people have Windows first, I will agree that Windows is easier to learn for most people.

        • #2982127

          See how much better this is?

          by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

          In reply to Ok, to address the original post

          1: I agree. It is kind of my point, and a point I have been trying to make for awhile. Linux is simply not suitable or ready for mass consumer adoption – and may never be. That isn’t the WORST thing in the world. Undoubtedly SOME people are buying Linux netbooks and finding them perfectly useful for their purposes. But for most people, for most purposes, Linux doesn’t cut it yet. So if this *is* the case, and I think it is, how come we get so much debate about if Vista is going to succeed or fail, or if Linux is superior? It is (and I use this analogy a lot) much like the Beta versus VHS argument (or HD versus BluRay for those of you who are still wet behind the ears). BEST doesn’t mean “market success”. Vista is going to be a “success”, or some Microsoft derivative of Vista. It isn’t going to go away, and Linux isn’t going to upset Microsoft dominance. If it was going to happen, it would have already. Smarter money is on something like Chrome and Cloud computing marginalizing the OS completely, regardless of brand. (Although such a scenario presents its own challenges and dangers – Linux people may end up wishing for the good ol’ days of Win32 back).

          2: Apples to Apples. A 486DX33 will run Win95 fine – or DOS 5 fine. Linux is, no doubt, more scalable. But to run a full distro with Xfree86 and GIMP or KDE and Office takes some resources – and introduces a lot of Win32 like frustrations, as well. It is part of the deal. The more complex you make a system, the more it takes to run, and the harder it is to keep it running.

          #3 I’ve got a friend that says, “Linux is only as free as your time”. My time is pretty precious to me. Mp4 support was just an example. It is a matter of accessibility. And let’s be fair – Win32 has issues with Codecs and different media formats can be a hassle. For me, with Xandros on the Eee PC, when I encountered the problem, it instantly made me evaluate, “Do I want to spend a bunch of time tracking down how to get a package or codec installed in Linux for MP4, or is it easier to just jump to WinXP and install Quicktime/iTunes now”. I’ve been down this road a lot. With RedHat, with Debian, with FreeBSD, with Ubuntu. That experience led me to XP.

          #4 – I think this is a moving target. But I think the argument is old and goes back to when Linux was competing mostly with Win95. There was a time… a time of frequent GPFs and BSODs. Those times are behind Win32 now. But the argument still operates as if that were the reality today. In the meantime, as Linux has grown complex to meet the challenges of Win32, they’ve developed their OWN GPFs and BSODs (Sev errors and Panics, for example). I’ve done a lot of work on both sides, and you’re right, it isn’t a hard target anymore. KDE 2 on Debian Potato, at release, was really bad. The Open Office at that time was really bad. Now, in all honesty, the few times I’ve revisited since, the first inclination I get that the experience is headed that way, I’m inclined to throw in the towel. At the very least, it makes me take it with a grain of salt when a Linux advocate tells me that Linux is MORE stable than Win32.

          5: Today’d distros, especially Ubuntu, have come a loooooong way. On the other hand, there are still very difficult parts that are really just part of the design and architecture of *nix. I’m thinking of issues I’ve had with ATI cards and Compiz and with wireless. Drivers, especially are still difficult to manage with *nix. Although again, much better today than having to recompile a custom kernel under Debian, like in the old days.

          And again, it isn’t about fair or right, it is about reality. Windows is dominant, people expect Windows and a Windows experience. Windows is the paradigm they’re comfortable with. This is aboslutely part of the 4:1 return ratio we’re seeing with netbooks. But the Linux community saying, “The customers are stupid, they need to invest in learning Linux” isn’t going to change this. That is a poor plan if Linux ever wants to replace Win32 as the dominant OS. Again, Apple seems to be on to something. They’ve got a *nix that average people seem to be able to adjust to, that people can make the switch to. What is the difference? Apple users, in my experience, are often the LEAST computer literate people on the planet. I think there is an important lesson in there about how to successfully sell a *nix based OS to Non-*nix/Windows buyers.

        • #2982112

          Sorry for the more offensive start

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to See how much better this is?

          I read your original post more as a seagull post — so responded in such a way.

          new #1 — I think as more and more apps are made to be browser access, the main OS will not matter as much, and more people will flock to cheaper versions such as Linux. However, useability is still a key factor, and many people do not want to learn a new OS. This is why MS still reigns on top for home users. Most of them, aside from these flash games that dont work in Linux, really have no need to use Windows. However, they are used to the way to do things.

          #2 — I agree — the more complex you make a system, the harder it is to run properly. Why does MS not see this? Why is Aero so bloated, why are temp files hidden soo much that you have to enable ‘view OS files (not recommended) to find the folders for them? MS has a lot of overprotective bloat where it is not needed. Some is likely for stability reasons, but the mass seems to be just to do it.

          #3 — I cannot comment on mp4 in Linux, I havent tried it. However, if you use the package manager it should work fine — but I am brought back a few years with a SUSE issue, where I spent about 4 hours trying to figure out a codec mess for (I think it was dvd :0 ). So yes, some things can be a hassle, especially if one is used to Win platform. An avid Linux user would be just as stuped if thrown on a Win box for the first time.

          #4 — I have noticed this as well. But it goes back to more code = more areas that can be a problem. MS has become much more stable, however a command line based Linux box without a GUI should be much more stable. However, add something like KDE and guess what — stability falls dramatically. I dont see a Server OS by MS that does not have the excess GUI. But I will say, this point is mostly moot now, because the stability is more from excess, and Linux is catching up with excess

          #5 — I would have to agree — some parts of many distros seems to still be a big issue. For me, dual monitors was an issue, when switching between using 2 and using 1, and even having the main monitor die and replacing it with a different model of monitor :0 — yes, it was a tremendous hassle. But I see that as not everyone needs/uses this function.
          I am not doubting that many things Windows is better for. I use both daily, and see many things that I much prefer Win for, and many others that I prefer Linux for. However, there are also distro-specific cr@p as well. Some things I prefer SUSE for and some things I prefer PCLOS for. This is solely personal preference though.

        • #2982953

          Puppy linux and others

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Ok, to address the original post

          are designed to give a light install on a flash stick, taking about 128M of space.

          When is the last time you saw a liveCD that ran Windows?

        • #2982948

          Bart-PE

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Puppy linux and others

          I use it all the time. Bootable XP CD, and I could put it on a flash drive if I had to.

          I’m not going to tell you there’s room for a bunch of apps, but OpenOffice.org would probably fit.

        • #2968536

          What kind of licensing does that take?

          by chris ·

          In reply to Bart-PE

          something you pay for once or is it per machine used on?

        • #2982940

          Winternals

          by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

          In reply to Puppy linux and others

          I’m certain that there are probably more LiveCD Win32 disks than the two mentioned here by Palmetto and I.

          NLite will allow you to make a custom, light version of Win32 – probably bootable as well. I bet you could get an NLite version on a VERY small USB disk. As a matter of fact, I’m almost certain you can, because there is a lot of discussion on the Netbook forums about doing this kind of thing. Of course, as you go down this road, you start turning Win32 into something almost as complex and convoluted for the average user as Linux.

          Dude, it is just an OS. If one can do it, another can, too. It shows a general lack of understanding to even suggest that Linux is somehow special because it has “liveCD” and “USB lite” installs.

          They’re all more the SAME than different. I’ve said for awhile, if something is going to upset the current paradigm, it is going to be a WHOLE NEW concept – something none of us have even imagined yet.

          Gesture based computing, VR interfacing, wet-link technology… But, it might be even more obscure than any of that…

          It isn’t going to be another GUI desktop.

        • #2982372

          Widows licencing

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to Winternals

          The closed source and windows EULA would limit what can legally be done with with “live windows”. Linux being open source allows much more scope for mucking about with all the posibilities

        • #2982242

          Closed Source Licensing

          by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

          In reply to Winternals

          It seems that Microsoft is aware of the limitations that their closed licensing brings to liveCD projects, and that this gives them a competitive disadavantage in certain applications against Linux. To that end, Microsoft has been uncharacteristically less aggressive on these issues and more proactive to make alternative solutions available. There is also a gray area of how enforcable certain elements of closed source licensing can be. For example, if you have a copy of OS X Leopard that is legally licensed and unused, can Apple really enforce their licensing agreement that stipulates that the software can only be installed on a genuine Apple machine? If you buy Guitar Hero for X-Box 360, can Activision legally enforce their license that says that you can only use the guitar with official Activision guitar games?

          If your license for XP or Vista is legitimate, my feeling is that you can use something like xLite or Winternals in any way you want. There hasn’t been a legal challenge to the licensing language of the EULA to establish otherwise.

        • #2968537

          Behind closed doors

          by chris ·

          In reply to My response

          I wonder if MS has ramped up their efforts in response to the early netbook numbers?

          They are coming late to the party, but no manufacturer with F with them.

        • #2982156

          I had to comment on one of your statments :)

          by —tk— ·

          In reply to Did you start this solely to

          There are dozens and dozens of distro’s out there. If 1 does not work for a person, another may.

          I went from Fedora Core 4, to OpenSuse 10.1, Fedora Core 5-6, Red Hat 9, Lindows converted the kernel to free BSD, Mint, PCLinuxOS 07 & 08, Ubuntu 4.04, 7.10, and I finally am sticking with a distro that im thrilled about Ubuntu 8.10 :)… took 8 years, but it was well worth it.

          If you dont like the OS try try again!! And I can cause its: “FREE to use, but not FREE like beer.” 🙂

        • #2982130

          what is PCLOS08?

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to I had to comment on one of your statments :)

          A couple of weeks ago I went to download the latest version of PCLOS, and it was still 07

        • #2982105

          yeah…..

          by —tk— ·

          In reply to what is PCLOS08?

          I had the same issue, they say 08, but they give you 07. I had to do some searching for it. Ill poke around for it, or if I still have the ISO, I’ll torrent it. Or if I can find the link I’ll send it to you.

          Added: It might have been a Beta version.

        • #2982097

          enjoy :)

          by —tk— ·

          In reply to yeah…..

        • #2982102

          Eight years is a long time to expect Joe Keyboard to look for an OS.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to I had to comment on one of your statments :)

          Eight years of your time is hardly “Free”. Eight years of mine definitely isn’t. I could have done a whole lot in the last eight years with Windows 2000 instead of test driving an OS annually. Depends on what you want to do with your ‘free’ time.

        • #2982091

          I enjoyed every minute of it…..

          by —tk— ·

          In reply to Eight years is a long time to expect Joe Keyboard to look for an OS.

          I know that I have gone through alot of distro’s :), but I really dont mind. Each one has its strenghts and weaknesses. Also they all have their limits on how hard you can beat it to death… lol… Some host FTP sites way better than others, some are easer to tweak graphically… It was just a matter of finding a good ballance. I strive to make it perfect for me….

          Perfect to me is: 3D desktop cube, w/ compiz (with out lag), complete wireless (with out it going out every now and then), VMware running XP and server 2003, able to play a few games in Wine, hosting a FTP site…ect. Like I said I like to beat it to death…

          LOL… and I am an NT server admin….

        • #2982999

          Professionally, I agree.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to I enjoyed every minute of it…..

          I’d probably enjoy a lot of it too, but what you and I find enjoyable isn’t going to be the least bit entertaining to Joe or Jane Homeuser.

        • #2982943

          Exactly

          by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

          In reply to Professionally, I agree.

          And, that is really the voice of reason. I’ve done a lot of work with Solaris and CDE, various linux distros, and FreeBSD.

          They’re all managable, but they’re all a lot more frustrating than Win32 to work with. Now, they certainly have their advantages, and it is liberating not to have to worry about licensing – and part of the fun for me is the challenge of learning something new and becoming competent with it. If I didn’t have a natural curiosity for this kind of tech, I’d be in the wrong business.

          But I also understand that this does not translate into a commercial success – and the hopes of the *nix community to cross this bridge are ill concieved at the moment.

          Which makes the *nix versus Win32 arguments so pointless. They shouldn’t happen so long as people realize, like Palmetto said, “It is software, not a religion”.

          I don’t really care if Linux dominates or loses the Netbook market, outside of caring what it can or can’t do for MY needs. Same for XP. I really *wish* Linux was a stronger competitor. I’d gladly dump Win32 and stop worrying about licenses and invasive things like Windows Genuine Assurance.

          Here is the difference. When I go into a Linux thread and voice complaints, they’re honest complaints based on my experiences that I would like to see improve.

          When Linux voices come into Win32 threads, they’re not complaining in the hope of seeing a better product out of Win32. They’re complaining in the hope that Linux will somehow replace Win32.

          Now, when I have complaints in a Linux thread, I often get, “Go back to using Win32, you M$ luser fanboi”… or some other derivative of that. Which isn’t what I’m hoping for, either. I’m usually hoping for advice, suggestions, and for a community that listens to my requests and tries to accomodate me as an end-user.

          The Linux guys going to Win32 threads, though, they’re not interested in improvement, suggestions or advice. They just seem to want to establish that Win32 has flaws and that Linux is (evidently) able to walk on water.

          Here is a great example. FreeBSD 6 has a terrible implementation of the SMB TCP stack that produces the WORST gb NIC performance on SMB/CIFS sharing of any platform available. But you don’t see a dozen threads basking in the glory that Win32 (or Linux) outperforms FreeBSD 6 in this capacity. You see people looking for answers.

          If Microsoft develops a flawed protocol, stack, or subsystem, the Linux guys are all over it like an angry mob ready for a lynching.

          That is a HUGE difference in approach.

        • #2982915

          Very True….

          by —tk— ·

          In reply to Professionally, I agree.

          .

        • #2982106

          Regardless of why he started it,

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Did you start this solely to

          we haven’t had one of these in a while, and it’s better than beating the dead election horse yet again…

        • #2982100

          yeah, I havent been interested enough

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to Regardless of why he started it,

          to even open another political thread recently.

        • #2982998

          Nothing to see

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to yeah, I havent been interested enough

          We can rehash, second-guess, and prognosticate all we want. The election is over, and only time will show exactly what the next administration will do.

      • #2982137

        But that’s exactly what MS did

        by saurondor ·

        In reply to How often have you heard…

        You say:

        ‘Well… if Microsoft was having the same problem, and they took the same approach, “Our product is fine, the users are stupid”…’

        They did that with Vista. When it was under heavy fire to get adopted what did Microsoft do? Cut XP Oem sales. Period. They then had to backpedal with the netbooks, but a large number of consumers are not liking Vista on their laptops. And guess what, tough luck there’s no other option in the channel.

        • #2982101

          Boy, there’s one across the bow.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to But that’s exactly what MS did

          Valid point.

        • #2982095

          Didn’t reply to this one

          by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

          In reply to Boy, there’s one across the bow.

          Because I’m not sure how I feel about that decision.

          If Dell comes out with a new model of PC, are they obligated to continue to offer their previous line, and for how long? At what point can they say, “You may prefer the previous version, but it is cannibalizing our current offering”.

          I mean that word, “cannibalizing”, exists in this sense for a reason. That is what XP does to Vista sales. It is suicide to offer too many cross competing products. Look at Sega with their console line. Look at Commodore, look at… hell, Apple. Apple at some point had to say, “we’re cannibalizing our product line with the IIgs and the II series, we’re going to just do Mac”. And when they made that decision, there was an uproar among the 8 bit Apple II faithful. You’re forced to do it for practical business reasons, and also for the sake of progress. No?

          So it isn’t quite the same thing. And it is undeniable that Vista was shaped in response to consumer concerns and complaints. Microsoft’s great strength and great weakness is how customer oriented they are. Security became so bad in the first place because they were doing things to accomodate user desires and requests.

          But, I also think there was a Microsoft agenda to force people into Vista through mandatory adoption. I just think that the way the poster presented it here, it is out of context with the original point about choice versus lack of choice.

          The complexity of the issue makes it kind of pointless to address this one. People are going to draw their opinion and stick with it on why Microsoft is forcing Vista on the channel, and if it is good, bad, naughty or nice.

        • #2982090

          Well as I’m well known as not being an MS fanboy, I’ll

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Didn’t reply to this one

          tell you that the reasons for forcing Vista were a no brainer in MS terms.

          They’d spent a lot of money on it.
          They’d used up a lot of PR on it.
          They were never going to improve windows in terms of architecture, particularly in terms of security without seriously impairing backwards compatibility. I personally believe they still compromised technically a bit too much. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if some of MS top boys weren’t wishing they’d bit the bullet a little harder.

        • #2982039

          Hence you agree

          by saurondor ·

          In reply to Didn’t reply to this one

          with the fact that Microsoft doesn’t listen to its consumer base. If XP is cannibalizing Vista it’s because people are preferring XP. Microsoft then turns its head and ignores that by pulling the plug on XP.

          I’m sure Microsoft listened a great deal to user needs. It also listened to corporation needs and the RIAA among others. It shuffled all those desires and came up with the aberration called Vista. Which I’d sum up as the wrong combination and implementation of the right needs.

          They were expecting Windows 95 Reloaded and got Windows ME 2.0. And soon we’ll be getting Windows 7 as if Vista never existed.

        • #2981925

          See – absolutely disagree

          by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

          In reply to Hence you agree

          There is an element out there that is
          steadfastly refusing to accept that Vista has
          turned a corner – but among Win32 IT
          professionals that I know, many of them have
          warmed up to Vista. 6 months ago, we
          considered it an unsupported platform. Now my
          engineers have no problem with supporting it.
          That doesn’t mean we’re adopting it – but
          that has as much to do with the economy and
          the life-cycle of our desktop and notebook
          systems as with Vista itself.

          Calling Vista “ME 2.0” is like calling Iraq
          “America’s new Viet Nam”. It might sound good
          as a sound blurb on the nightly news, but it
          couldn’t be further from the truth.

        • #2981913

          Two different issues

          by saurondor ·

          In reply to See – absolutely disagree

          I believe Vista has turned a corner and more driver support and updates have improved the OS. This does not cover up the fact that Microsoft did indeed turn its back on consumer desires. Even to the point of possible deception and that is why they’re in court over the 915 chipset issue.

          It cleared the channel of XP machines in the 2007 launch. Then OEMs returned to selling XP. So once again we had XP machines in the channel. Then it cut XP off contrary to client needs because machines with XP were still being sold. After the surge in Linux netbooks it restored XP Home for sale on netbooks, but we all know how limited XP Home is compared to XP Pro. And in this year’s PDC there is all talk about Windows 7 and “Cloud Computing” Vista is nowhere to be seen.

          On the other hand with Linux you have sites like this one ( redhat.lsu.edu/dist ) where you can download Red Hat all the way back to 1.0. So there is nobody forcing you to upgrade or die. And it is also a lot more modular and isn’t limited by some weird marketing schemes. For example 64bit support is as available as 32bit. You don’t have to buy or upgrade your version to support multiple processors. Your 64bit version can support +4Gigs RAM without weird limitations. GUI features like Compiz Fusion blow Aero out of the water and with way less hardware requirements.

          There are quite a few limitations for widespread acceptance of Linux on the desktop. One of them is current Windows’ specific applications, but as more goes to the web and more cross platform applications are developed. More irrelevant will Windows become as an OS.

        • #2983074

          You beat me to Maximum Thread Depth

          by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

          In reply to See – absolutely disagree

          If this were a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors, you would win. 🙂

          And honestly, your last post actually made some very strong points about the specific advantages of *nix for an enterprise – ones that I honestly hadn’t considered in the past but that are continious challenges for me as the manager of a Win32 based IT shop. Multi-processor licensing issues, 64 bit hardware migration and implementation concerns (and licensing concerns). All of those things do magically go away with Linux. Now, having access to any historic kernel of a particular Red Hat distro, I’m calling that of limited value. I also wonder about support models. I imagine that I do end up paying more for Red Hat Enterprise Support for a multiprocessor machine than for a single processor machine. There has to be some mechanism built into their support structure to account for more complex implementations that are more difficult to support.

          And yes, Cloud Computing may marginalize the OS, and in that case, Linux could conceivably become a contender for the OS. But that is arriving to the party after the keg is empty. Even then, Microsoft isn’t sitting on their laurels with Cloud Computing. They’re actively trying to move to cloud based subscription models. If they can change the bulk of their revenue to this model, I can see two possible directions…

          1) The release Windows “free”. Not Free as in Free Beer, but Free as in, “Microsoft dominant Cloud Apps run best on Microsoft Cloud App optimized Free Windows”.

          2) They concede the OS market. What do they care if you use Linux or Win 32, as long as you’re subscribing to *their* subscription based services and applications and they’re still seeing all the money? Hell, that makes “support” a breeze. “I’m sorry, our app isn’t the problem, your base platform is. Please call your OS or Web Browser distributor to resolve this issue”.

          That change may be coming – but as I said, by the time we get there, the Linux camp may be wishing for the old days back. I am not sold that Cloud Computing is a good idea, although I am convinced it is likely inevitable at this point.

        • #2981849

          In regards to cloud computing

          by saurondor ·

          In reply to See – absolutely disagree

          I believe you’re right on the path Microsoft will take. I’d put my savings on #1. And that will probably be Microsoft’s undoing. They’re too tied to the desktop and Vista clearly shows that. Their mobile offer is very limited and that is a huge growing market that is quickly getting crowded.

          In regards to Linux coming late to the party to find an empty keg. I think the whole Windows/Linux issue is being circumvented. Instead of fighting to establish a competing OS to Windows people are just hijacking Windows. We’ve seen this with the large amount of open source apps that now have a Windows port. It became clearer with the release of Chrome and with KDE 4 and QT being ported to Windows a lot of KDE apps will soon appear on Windows.

          So in the end using Windows is better than using Linux, but developing for open cloud computing is better than developing for Microsoft cloud computing. A development done on the Microsoft cloud will only run on it and better on Windows clients. A development done on an open cloud will run on any cloud and on any client equally well.

          After taking a glimpse at Azure I have two doubts. Can I have one at the office? I can have an Azure environment to develop in, but can I have my own enterprise cloud? Haven’t seen any reference to that being possible. Secondly, will the upgrade path be as steep and bumpy as it is on the desktop. As new cloud releases are made available how will that affect the functionality of my application? Will there be a risk it breaks as it does on the desktop?

          This takes me back to the beginning of your post regarding the archived Red Hat versions. It is true that an archive of past Red Hat versions is not very useful, but it would be great for Windows! Each new Windows release seems to break past applications. With today’s virtualization capabilities it would be a plus to have previous versions available to support legacy apps. If only Microsoft sold us what we need instead of what they need us to buy.

        • #2981784

          Dangers of the Cloud

          by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

          In reply to See – absolutely disagree

          I’m honestly as uncomfortable with Google owning the place where my apps and data live as with having Microsoft own that place – and I’m not sure I want to take on the responsibility of “hosting” a thin client “intracloud” on my own network. It sounds so much more centralized and less complicated – but we STARTED there and moved this way for a REASON.

          Again, I regard the move to cloud computing as dangerous and potentially regressive, but almost inevitable. Chrome and Google Docs and other Google Apps are certainly what changed my mind about this. The convenience factor as well as well, heck, not even OS independent, but hardware independent application delivery is bound to win end user buy-in. You can see that already and things are still fairly crude. But it really is a step back to dumb-terminal/big iron computing, and all of the negative aspects of that model will exist in Cloud Computing.

          I like plugging my video camera into my pc and downloading my family videos to my hard drive and editing them on my copy of Windows Movie Maker without ANY intermediatary.

          I do not like the idea of plugging my video camera into my thin-client and having it send the file to some remote server where I can run a remote application to edit that movie and then copy it back through the dumb terminal to whatever output device I have, or to maybe just publish the finished movie there on that remote server to have global access to it through whatever device I am using that can get to the cloud.

          The plus of that second scenario is obvious in the portability – hardware portability, world portability. The negative is the loss of control and privacy I have in the whole process.

          Now, I can see your reasoning to an “open” cloud being better than a Microsoft proprietary cloud…. the lesser of two evils for certain. But I’m not certain that consumers will care. Experience shows that Microsoft is EXCELLENT at leveraging their dominance in one arena to develop gradual dominance in another, even if their competition has a great head-start. They have expert experience at creating this kind of lock-in by promoting “Value Add” that is cross platform.

          I can see Xbox 360 and Live eventually becoming dominant and that being the leverage that Microsoft needs to secure closed cloud computing dominance, for example. No one else is even in a position close to executing something like that. Nintendo certainly doesn’t have something like this in place, and Sony is getting into the Online Gaming community late, and I don’t think with any broad over-reaching plan other than to sell more PS3s in competing with Microsoft for the console market.

          To see Microsoft’s grand plan, one has to stand FAR back and contemplate all of their various different directions – which often seem random and unfocused, but generally have a grander long-term goal in mind.

          I suppose time will tell – but I regard this period as being very critical and very dangerous to the evolution of our technology as professionals and consumers.

        • #2982997

          If anybody comes out with a new product

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Didn’t reply to this one

          and it’s greeted as poorly as Vista, and a large majority of the market is screaming for the old version, then you bring back “Classic Coke” and cut your losses.

        • #2982934

          Classic Coke

          by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

          In reply to If anybody comes out with a new product

          Well…

          Then you deal with fans of New Coke who are disappointed, and you end up disenfranchising one market or the other.

          Although, the analogy is fairly good, because New Coke was really supposed to be more competitive with Pepsi… and much of Vista is designed to compete with OS X.

          So you end up ticking off a bunch of loyal customers trying to court a growing number of users jumping ship, and you split your market, and end up on the fence unsure of which side to step off onto.

          But… Microsoft has never really played the “Cut your losses” game. They’ve always gone, “We’re making a decision, and we’ll stick with it and refine things until we get it right”.

          Xbox. Zune, Windows. It is their playbook. Very few things do they go, “We can’t make this work, walk away from it”.

          Microsoft brings a mallet to the operation room.

        • #2968533

          Are you sure about this?

          by chris ·

          In reply to Didn’t reply to this one

          “And it is undeniable that Vista was shaped in response to consumer concerns and complaints.”

          Based upon how Vista works, it seems much more in response to how they think people are reacting to Mac.

          It’s like selling a kit car because of how people react to Ferraris

        • #2968361

          OS X and Linux

          by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

          In reply to Are you sure about this?

          Both had a clear impact on the direction MS took with Vista. The increased emphasis on multimedia content management and manipulation in Vista is clearly a direct response to OS X, as is the Aero eye-candy.

          The security is a direct response to the Linux community and their complaints about security.

          So, it was really a two stage defense. Consumers become disenchanted with Win32 after they pick up a trojan or a pop-up generator or get their homepage hijacked or other malware on their visit to the porn sites… Eventually, they migrate, probably to OS X – where they find that it is so easy to manage their giant collection of Porn.

          Thus, all Linux and Mac users are Porn addicts.

          Hmmm… I think I lost my original direction there. Anyhow… you’re probably right, Microsoft didn’t really care to address the “compalints” when it was just the Linux guys complaining. When they started losing share to Apple, that got their attention.

      • #2968539

        Actually they do

        by chris ·

        In reply to How often have you heard…

        but, they have convinced the manufacturers to use them exclusively.

        consumers can complain all they want, but they got nothing else they can do (although now a little bit more AFTER the court cases regarding monoplizing).

        Can you get a different engine management software put in your car? Can you complain about it? Will it make a difference?

        • #2968360

          Bad analogy

          by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

          In reply to Actually they do

          Most cars, you can either get a new chip or program the chip if it is OBD-II.

          So, yeah, you can get a different engine management software put in your car. I’ve done it several times. Night and day difference.

    • #2982140

      #1 is not a reason its a symtom

      by saurondor ·

      In reply to 5 Reasons that Linux is a failure

      Yup its a symptom of a problem and I believe that problem is that people don’t generally know there is another OS for PCs. Just look at the I’m a PC ads. They sell Windows because for a very large number of people Windows and PCs are synonymous. They get a netbook PC and think they’ll be able to run their software because it’s a PC.

    • #2982096

      Nice Apple kick ;-)

      by bens ·

      In reply to 5 Reasons that Linux is a failure

      “How come rational people can’t see through the logical inconsistency of a prime-time commercial taking another company to task for running prime-time commercials? Especially a company that encourages people to think independently and critically.”

      YAY someone else noticed! Ahh but lets back to the debate of Linux vs. Windows. Mind you, can’t we pick out at least 5 reasons why Microsoft was a failure in regards to Vista? Perhaps the ‘failure’ on these netbook returns could have been related to a single distro. To be honest, I’m not sure what the majority of netbooks come loaded with, but it seems like there should be a commonality. Where are you getting your stats?

      Me personally, I use both…why not?

    • #2982094

      Flame bait or what, but I’ll ask a simple question

      by tony hopkinson ·

      In reply to 5 Reasons that Linux is a failure

      In what way is ‘linux’ responsible for Notebooks a commercial product’s ‘success’.

      What part of the linux community should feel the need to make it work on a notebook?

      For instance I don’t own a notebook, I have no use for what in my opinion is an overblown PDA.

      So why should I contribute to development on it. I can think of a lot of things I’d rather work on.

      Seeing as none of the big distros who could probably manufacture some interest in this don’t seem to have bothered, and apparently yourself who sees this as useful hasn’t bothered, maybe it’s not worth bothering with.

      Let’s face it aside from wanting a serving of roast arse the only reason for this drivel is you want linux on a notebook at no cost to yourself.

      In a word tough, get off your arse and do something about it then. It’s free as in free to contribute. I’m sure not everyone has as little use for an overly functional time piece as I, you could get some takers if you tried.

      • #2983014

        Just another thought

        by j-mart ·

        In reply to Flame bait or what, but I’ll ask a simple question

        If some of these notebook machines are being made with ARM processors its a pity no one has looked at using a derivative of the RISCOS operating system as was used on the British built ACORN machines of the late ’80’s and ’90’s. This GUI would be the leanest most bang for buck, get the most out of your hardware OS ever produced, though it probably hasn’t been seen much outside of Britain, New Zealand and other British commonwealth countries. The popularity of an OS is most defiantly no indication of quality or excellence as nothing out there is close to this product.

        • #2982986

          Having spent a good deal of money

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Just another thought

          on some magnificent commercial failures, I have to at least agree with the sentiment. Never liked the BBC machines, always lacked on the value for money front to me. So I never bought one to discover how good one unimportant aspect (to me) was.

        • #2982929

          Netbooks

          by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

          In reply to Just another thought

          The majority of Netbooks are Intel ATOM, Celeron, or VIA x86 compatible CPUs.

          That is their “strength”. They’re PCs. There are ARM netbooks…

          But the question becomes…

          Do you want a really BIG smart-phone/PDA with a form-factor like a REAL PC?

          Or do you want a real SMALL PC with a form-factor more like a smart-phone/PDA?

          If you want door #1, you want an ARM based Netbook.

          If you want door #2, you want an Intel/Cyrix based notebook.

          The stumbling block with Smartphone/PDA acceptance has been interoperability with your real PC, as far as mass consumer adoption has been concerned. Windows Mobile may LOOK and FEEL like good ol’ Win32, but it is different – and the portability of familiar apps isn’t an option.

          With an x86 based netbook, it is just a REAL teeny PC. Consumers seem to be responding to that model.

        • #2981732

          The RISCOS OS

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to Netbooks

          Though never became mainstream it was big in education in its heyday, was the first use of computers as an educational tool in this part of the world. In your part of the world you probably have never come across it. The speed and efficiency that the platform has on minimal hardware is a lesson in good programing, the RISCOS desktop was superior to anything else around at the time. As they are now outdated I have collected some of these surplus machines for small change. They are extreamly stable, practically indestructible and it is hard to corrupt the software requiring little effort to keep running in top condition, perfect for the school environment. As most of the OS is written in native ARM assembly would be perfect to give more bite to ARM based netbooks. The quality of the software that has been written for this platform would be some of the best produced. I still use a 1992 vintage machine with full fast GUI on a machine with only 4 Meg Ram (incl video ram though OS is on 4 meg of ROM on board) I use this machine regularly to produce music scores in postscript output, having not found any more modern tools that produces a better finished product as easy as what this does.

        • #2968530

          yeah, I bet

          by chris ·

          In reply to Netbooks

          a lot of people bought these things thinking it was a mini pc which means the sales guys didn’t do his/her job.

          They are really better suited as applicances.

          But, for me, when they are 2 gigs fast I might consider em since they are easier to carry on my motorcycle. I’ll just plug monitors into em.

        • #2974745

          Eee PC

          by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

          In reply to yeah, I bet

          They *are* a mini PC.

          They’ve got at minimum a Celeron 900Mhz, and best an Atom 1.7ghz.

          They’ll support up to 2GB of ram.

          They’ve got all kinds of different storage options, from Solid state to SATA 2.5″ drives.

          In my case, I just took an Eee PC 701 wtih 4gb of solid state drive, 16gb SD card, and 320gb external USB drive to Spain with me. It met all my mobile computing needs for the trip, playing movies from MP4 ipod images (340×200 is ideal for the 7″ screen), playing (relatively dated) games, checking e-mail, and surfing the web. I also set it up with GPS via blue tooth. I picked it up used, and blew off the limited Linux OS on it and replaced it with XP, though.

          Configured with Linux, most are set up as very simple “appliance” machines, but they can certainly function as full fledged, although tiny PCs.

          They’re not top end core duo Alienware gaming rigs. But I also traded an old IBM Netfinity 5000 server and a cheap handcam for the 701. Can hardly complain about the price.

          But, I also agree that there have been some historical OSes that were quite good that ran on incredibly limited resources by today’s standards. AmigaOS comes to mind.

          I suppose you get into this circular argument here where we can start using Apple Newton users as an example. They claim the Newton is far superior to any PDA available today, for various reasons. I disagree, but I can see their point. It is all about what you expect from a device.

          So perhaps the problem with high Linux netbook returns has more to do with how the products are being presented. With Linux they *are* more appliance device, but the people who are returning them seem interested in small full fleged PCs.

    • #2982017

      You might have saved some typing time

      by michael jay ·

      In reply to 5 Reasons that Linux is a failure

      by just linking to this blog at the sister station zdnet;

      http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=2690

      Your title using the word failure is rather misleading, Linux is most certainly not a failure, it just is not a mass market kinda thing.

      No offense, just saying.

      • #2981926

        The title

        by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

        In reply to You might have saved some typing time

        Is really a commentary about the editorial
        staff around here:

        Jason Hiner started THIS thread:

        http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/hiner/?
        p=849

        And I figured I’d just run with the “Yellow
        Journalism/Sensationalist Headlines” thing.

        I mean, I get it… if I had a less
        sensationalist headline, I wouldn’t have
        gotten nearly the response that I did to this
        thread.

        🙂

    • #2983011

      One of the reasons Linus

      by j-mart ·

      In reply to 5 Reasons that Linux is a failure

      Created Linux was to enable connecting his low powered PC into the UNIX machine at the university he was studying at, to enable working on his assignments from the comfort of the warm dorms, rather than braving the cold Scandinavian winter. As Linux in it’s most raw form was able to perform this task as designed it was definitely a success right from the start. Since then many have added, modified and adapted Linux for many other uses, hardly any kind of failure is it. Linux, due to it’s open source and adaptability, is going to continue on being a success, as it performs functions that are impossible with closed source products, and built from a well proven architecture, that makes it much superior to Windows for many tasks. Windows is just a desktop/consumer product. Linux can perform desktop/consumer OS tasks as well, but this is only a part of what it can do.

      • #2982926

        Keep telling yourself this…

        by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

        In reply to One of the reasons Linus

        But consumers disagree with you, on a 4:1 basis. They don’t seem to think that Linux can perform desktop/consumer OS tasks as well.

        • #2981787

          Question…

          by —tk— ·

          In reply to Keep telling yourself this…

          Where are you getting this 4:1? And how many Linux netbooks are sold to 1 Windows box?

        • #2981744

          4:1

          by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

          In reply to Question…

          I think the 4:1 is MSI, but in general retailers are reporting the same.

          Wasn’t there a google link in the original article I posted?

          Here…

          http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=linux+netbook+returns+4+to+1

          http://blog.laptopmag.com/ubuntu-confirms-linux-netbook-returns-higher-than-anticpated

          The link above looks very bleak. It looks like the pro-Linux crowd investigated even deeper into this claim, and found that in fact it is WORSE than it looks on the surface.

          http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/10/05/123253&from=rss

          http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,39500489,00.htm

          http://blogs.computerworld.com/one_more_reason_linux_must_fear_windows_7

          etc. etc…

          Of course like the saying goes, Opinions are like… Everyone has a different take on the impact and importance of this…

          I’m not making this up to troll. It is all over out there, if you hit tech sites, you’re going to see this mentioned. Sorry, this isn’t a MS Fanboy making up statistics to troll the Linux community.

        • #2981712

          none of this has anything to do with success or failure

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to 4:1

          Linux is a definite success, it has become a good reliable tool to make many varied tasks easily and cheaply achieved. Windows on the other hand may be a success as a consumer product but I would call it a failure in terms of quality and value for money, Linux is of a much better quality with less flaws at it’s core

        • #2981582

          Beta versus VHS

          by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

          In reply to none of this has anything to do with success or failure

          By this definition, Beta was a success (delivering a higher quality product with better features and functions) than VHS.

          The Amiga was a success and both the 68k Macs and the x86 PCs of the era were a failure.

          The Syquest 135 removable disk was a successs (the Wha-WHO?!?) and the Iomega Zip was a failure.

          Venom is a success and Metallica is a failure… (mmm… that one is dubious at best).

          Sorry. Consumer success is part of the equation. Accessibility translates into usability. Going the path of the “better but unique”, especially with technology, is a much more difficult path to travel. Compromise and concession is part of the deal.

        • #2981534

          No

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to Beta versus VHS

          Linux not designed to be a comercial closed source product, always intended to be open source, used for whatever and adapted to whatever task clever people can dream up to use it for, a goal Linux has acheived. Beta was created for the comercial VCR market as was VHS, despite technically superior, failed. Windows, closed source, created by Microsoft to make money, which it hs done, inspite of quality issues at times, has been a success. Look a all the things Linux has been used for, look at intended place in the big picture, and it has most definatly been a success. Fan boys rantings pecentages of desktop installs etc are not what determines success or failure in the case of Linux, it has done what it’s creators made it for.

        • #2981517

          Ok…

          by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

          In reply to Beta versus VHS

          If you want to define it at that level, then
          I agree completely. Linux is beyond a
          success, it is a success beyond the wildest
          dreams of those who created it and nurtured
          it. It is a third party candidate for
          President who got 20% of the popular vote.

          Which is actually an incredible achievement.

          But you seem to be one of the rare people who
          can see Linux for what it is and accept it as
          that. Maybe there are a lot of people like
          that actually, and it is just the people who
          aren’t like that tend to be more vocal.

          For me, professionally, Linux is one of those
          things that can be a headache, when someone
          who has read a couple articles asks, “What
          about Linux for…”

          Hearing those words professionally can
          sometimes be like having a Doctor tell you,
          “You better sit down before I tell you this”.

          Or better yet, having a cop tackle you to the
          ground while yelling, “Stop resisting arrest”
          (police code for, “I am about to hurt you in
          a way that you will be all but helpless to
          try and resist reacting to, so that I can
          justify beating you even more for
          resisting”.)

          🙂

          If there is an environment that Linux is
          going to be well suited for in my
          environment, I am going to know about it. If
          some non-technical person mentions it because
          they read in some magazine how great and free
          it was, it is almost certain to be a bad idea
          and difficult to explain why to this
          individual.

          As defined in my post though, I am using the
          “Linux as a run away commercial threat to
          Microsoft dominance of desktop platforms”
          concept of Linux market growth. In that case,
          in that definition, as it applies to
          netbooks, it appears to me that Linux is a
          failure.

          Hey… Jason made his definition of what he
          meant by “Vista Failure” more narrow through
          the course of that thread, too, so I should
          be able to, also…

        • #2981673

          ok…. lol…

          by —tk— ·

          In reply to 4:1

          I researched it a little and didn’t find what you had found. Your search was better.

        • #2981568

          Well, and honestly…

          by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

          In reply to ok…. lol…

          You can take a glass half empty or glass half full approach to this.

          If 1 linux netbook sells, that is 100% more than if netbooks were all Win32 based…

          Which is some form of commercial progress for Linux.

          The situation is probably a lot better than that, even. There are probably tens of thousands of Netbooks selling with Linux that are NOT being returned… at least.

          But with a 4:1 return ratio, I’m feeling a little pessimistic, a little “glass is half empty”. We can blame it on stupid, lazy users who don’t want change, but that doesn’t change that number, or how disturbing it is. Regardless of the reason, there seems to be 2 options…

          Linux remains a niche player and a 4:1 return ratio is just how the game goes.

          or

          Linux changes in some way to make that 4:1 return ratio drop.

          The one thing that isn’t going to happen is that end users are going to change and suddenly start being “smarter and less lazy” and come to love Linux as it is.

          I think Linux either has to come to terms with what it is, or figure out how to become something a lot MORE than what it is now. Which doesn’t mean that Linux isn’t “fine” now, simply that it doesn’t discourage this kind of high return rate in the form it is presently in.

          I’m a pessimist. I think Linux remains what it is, and the people who are happy with it remain happy with it, but it probably never crosses a bridge to very massive acceptance by the average user. I don’t think that is such a bad thing. But it really should be the end of comparative discussion, flames and Linux advocate analysis of Vista (or other MS) “failures” and the like. Linux would need to remove the chip from its shoulder, and stop trying to compare itself to or compete with something it isn’t, and doesn’t want to be. Linux needs to come out of the closet and be comfortable with what it is.

          Linux needs to learn to love itself… as it is… a big, stinky, nerdy, anti-social, penguin breathed hug for itself.

          Right now Linux is the nerdy math-kid in High School trying to hang out with the popular, normal crowd and not making the scene.

          I just don’t think Linux has it in itself to demean itself to wearing the same fashion, thinking the same, doing keg stands, date raping cheerleaders, and bullying nerds just to be able to consider itself socially equal to Win32. It prefers to be morally superior.

          But being morally superior, Linux is just far less likely to get invited to the house parties going on on most people’s PCs, Laptops and Netbooks.

          It’ll continue to spend most weekends with a few close, nerdy, friends like FreeBSD and Unix, playing AD&D, wondering what it is about cousin OS X, who seems to be able to live in both worlds.

        • #2982366

          A thing to remember

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to Well, and honestly…

          A part of the ongoing OS “wars discussions” etc is to be taken with a grain of salt as entertainment value, and the interlectual stimulation of a good argument. Politics and religion all get their turn as well on TR. We would be silly to take too much of it too seriously.

        • #2982238

          Most of us seem pretty good

          by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

          In reply to Well, and honestly…

          At balancing it. I mean, my analogies are kind of a jab at Linux, but at the same time, they’re obviously intended to be light and humorous.

          Now some people, and be honest, they’re MOSTLY Linux folks, have an almost religious perspective on these OS wars. Those people often have a complete disconnect with reality and seem to be able to warp their reality to suit their perspective. It can be relatively frustrating when you get one of them in these threads.

          But I agree about the intellectual stimulation. I often get called a Linux troll. I think of myself as a Linux skeptic. I’m not opposed to Linux, I’m actually probably a proponent of the competitive spirit it brings to the OS wars. But, who would want to hang out on a forum full of MS Fanbois talking about how great Microsoft and Microsoft products are? Where is the intellectual challenge in that? To that end, I guess I do enjoy being the underdog opinion in any forum. Nothing better than trying to debate 4 or 5 other passionate opinions single handedly (or almost so). I generally do a pretty good job, too.

          Really, this thread, the 4:1 thing was a shock to me. I instantly saw that I could capitalize on the data here in the forums, but on a personal level, I really wish Linux was meeting with more acceptance and success on Netbooks. I think it *is* a perfect niche for Linux to flourish in, and I think that if it can get a foothold and get some significant commercial success, that will only encourage Linux to develop into an even better and more robust alternative to Win32. Personally, I’d like to see OS X lose market share to Linux growth. I made the analogy to OS X being able to live in both worlds, and it does, but it also carries a lot of the baggage and negatives of both worlds, too.

        • #2968525

          So good.

          by chris ·

          In reply to Well, and honestly…

          The funny thing is you just describer Bill Gates.

          I lope linux can go on to be as successful as he turned out

          🙂

        • #2981718

          Who cares

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to Keep telling yourself this…

          This does not make Linux a failure, It has most certainly surpassed anything the original creators had in mind for it. Consumer products are just that, fashionable, sometimes only for short periods, that consumers purchase to blend in and show off to other consumers.

        • #2968528

          So what?

          by chris ·

          In reply to Keep telling yourself this…

          you are drawing the conclusion that having many people (mass market) users equals success.

          maybe in line with this thread I suppose, but where is that written?

          Is there a Linux Mission statement or Business plan or Board of Directors or Shareholders?

    • #2982988

      Try “5 Reasons XP is STILL a success”

      by 1bn0 ·

      In reply to 5 Reasons that Linux is a failure

      You are only presenting once facet the current OS environment.

      Windows XP is the VHS tape of operating systems for the majority of computer users. That is both Business and home users. It does what they want, when that want it and good enough to satisfy their requirements.

      Parts of your reaonsing are correct. People buy a Linus Netbook expecting it to give them the same experience as a Windows machine. Many of them also expect it to run “software” just like a Windows machine. THey do not understand the distinction between software for “Windows” and software for “Linux”. Software runs on a “computer”. Period.

      When they are diappointed with the Lunix experience they reurn to one they are comfortable and happy with.

      This is also still happening with Vista purchasers. Vista is not “turning a corner” because it has made any real gains. Vista is gainin over XP in sales because it is getting harder for people to buy a machine with the Windows XP they want.

      This is often the point at which many turn to Netbooks as an alternative. Most still come with XP because they can’t run Vista capably. WHen the consumer looks at the prices they see a Linux alternative at a significantly lower price point.

      “Hmmm. Maybe thats worth looking at.”

      They look and they are not impressed.

      • #2982919

        Turning a corner

        by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

        In reply to Try “5 Reasons XP is STILL a success”

        My father in law recently said, “I probably should just buy Vista”.

        I’m running Vista at home.

        One of my engineers has migrated to Vista and decided to stay there.

        My network engineer, a Mac guy, says, “Vista seems to work fine for me” .

        Turning a corner.

        My Father In Law, he has software that now requires Vista. That is often the change catalyst. When NEW features that you WANT require you to seek an upgrade to either your current hardware or your current OS. That, to me, illustrates that Vista is reaching a critical mass and turning a corner.

        Now, granted, I also told my father in law that he needs to hold off until he decides to upgrade his P4 Celeron 1.7ghz – that it isn’t enough machine for Vista. But he has had that machine since 2002, he has gotten his money’s worth out of it.

        Although, I agree with the XP is to VHS analogy. Many people are very comfortable with it and see no real value with moving up compared to the costs associated with an upgrade, much like moving to DVD and later HD and BluRay has met with relatively tepid response from consumers.

        But at some point, DVD started “turning the corner” – and a lot of the “I’m sticking with VHS” people were still saying, “DVD isn’t worth it and will never catch on”.

        I think that the people who are speaking out against Vista now are in the same place as people who were still holding off on DVD when it was clear it had “turned the corner”.

        And of course, there are STILL people who are holding off on DVD in favor of VHS, even though now it looks like BluRay has “Turned the corner”. I still haven’t jumped on BluRay yet myself. But using this analogy…

        When Windows 7 is turning the corner and Vista is the dominant OS, there are STILL going to be people claiming that XP is still the only thing they need.

        • #2968505

          Agreed…

          by forum surfer ·

          In reply to Turning a corner

          My bro-in-law, a mechanic still preaches w2k and has thus far refused the switch to Xp. He’s taking some local community college classes that teach various forms of linux. He loved the idea, but hated it in practice. He experimented with Vista at my house and whined like a school kid who lost his favorite toy.

          Some people just won’t switch until their current product is no longer supported or a upgrade is mandated by a piece of software they depend on. It’s just a matter of time before he ends up with a diagnostic software utility that makes him use Vista.

          Me, I’ll use whatever gets the job done or is required by my job constraints.

        • #2968352

          Agreed

          by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

          In reply to Agreed…

          Along those lines, in all of the places I’ve worked at, only two have had any Linux projects. One was Intel, and it was… such a “token project”. It gave me the impression, right away, that Intel was not comitted to Linux so much as it was hoping Linux MIGHT break out and upset Microsoft dominance (that WinTel duopoly is a myth, kids. They play nice, but neither company really likes the other very much). But it was clear that Intel wasn’t going to jump ship from being a Win32 based operation.

          The other was a small consulting group that was strapped for resources and didn’t really have the *nix experience to have *nix based servers.

          I’ll use whatever gets the job done or is required by my job constraints. And in 14 years of experience, there has been little professional requirement for *nix experience.

        • #2968343

          Same here

          by forum surfer ·

          In reply to Agreed

          I have a handful of linux systems running vmware and samba. They all had server 2003 installed virtually, eventually. I have many system critical apps and I’m more than reluctant to go virtual on many of my servers and be dependent on one piece of hardware, especialy considering these are public safety apps dealing with 911 clients. With the exception of a storage server running *nix/samba, I’m not saving any money because too many of my apps depend on m$ products. And with alot of this dependency being with ESRI/Mapinfo products there is’t a viable open source alternative so I’m stuck.

          But then again I don’t crusade for open source or m$ so I could care less. I do use alot of open source apps, however…but all are runing on windows.

      • #2968520

        XP Rocks

        by chris ·

        In reply to Try “5 Reasons XP is STILL a success”

        sorry, but it does. From an end user corporate environment view (I use linux on all my personal boxes) it just works. It’s stable and great.

        It took em a while, but they did it….

        right up til Vista….

    • #2981781

      Are you serious?

      by jhenry6 ·

      In reply to 5 Reasons that Linux is a failure

      Wow comparing apples to oranges. I love when someone writes about something that doesn’t even know what they are talking about and they try to sound smart. I like Windows, I like Linux, and they both have their place in the world. You forgot to mention how Linux doesn’t run Visual Basic 2008 and how for some reason the commands are not the same. LOL.

      Just stick with your opinion and Windows. PS> You sounded smart.

      • #2981738

        I don’t know what I’m talking about

        by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

        In reply to Are you serious?

        Because I’ve never used vi to configure the Xfree86 config file in /etc to recognize a PS/2 mouse. I’ve never done a custom compile of the Debian kernel to provide PCMCIA 802.11b support, I’ve never ran a Unix Citadel BBS forum on Solaris. I’ve never had to manually mount a device. As a matter of fact, the idea that every device on a system appears as a file in the file system is something I absolutely don’t understand, because I don’t even understand what that means.

        Never used pkunzip, gunzip, or dealt with a tar file, either.

        GRUB and LILO and Druid and the ooncept of slices are completely alien to me, because I’m just a Windoze luser M$ Fanboi. What is this DMESG thing? Huh? Can someone tell me. And, how come winmsd doesn’t work? What the heck is a bogomip? Of course, it doesn’t matter, because I’d never know where to look to find out how many of them my system has in the first place, anyhow.

        If I were a witty *nix guy, right now I might tell you to go fsck yourself.

        But I’m not… I’m just a Windows n00b writing about something “that I don’t even know what I am talking about”, trying to sound smart.

        Windows has commands? I thought you just clicked on the pretty pictures…

        Did I sound smarter, this time?

        • #2981730

          Careful there.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to I don’t know what I’m talking about

          You’ll wear out your sarcasm gland and have to take medicinal supplements. Those aren’t covered under most insurance plans or Medicare Part B.

        • #2981709

          It just drives me NUTS…

          by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

          In reply to Careful there.

          Not subtle enough? 🙂

          I guess I should start posts like this with a detailed resume of my *nix experience, just to avoid these criticisms later in the resulting discussion.

          Why is the typical response to a Linux criticism “You must not understand Linux”?

          When it was guys who KNEW more about Linux than I, it didn’t bother me so much. But these days, it seems that more often I get Linux neophytes telling me that my opinion must be based on a lack of experience, and that really rubs me wrong.

        • #2981544

          Subtle suggestion

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to It just drives me NUTS…

          Update your profile! My Workspace, Profile tab, Edit button. Then anyone can click your name to see it.

        • #2968515

          RE:

          by jon ·

          In reply to I don’t know what I’m talking about

          No, but you did make yourself seem ignorant, and clinging to a high pedestal in which you un-doubtfully need to leave. You create a topic that you know will bring in attention from multi O/S communities and possibly somehow think that you will not be attacked by some form of mass Linux based population. I also do not believe the Jason was saying that windows was a failure, he was just stating that Windows Vista has not been doing well, and it already has a replacement on the way, but as for as far as a normal lifetime expectancy of a MS O/S, this is the norm. The bickering between everyone really needs to stop, both or should I say all O/S have their place in home and business use. The facts still exists that MS owns the business market share and I doubt that Linux will ever overcome that, really that is not what anyone strives for and being an IT Manager whom most cling to their job and MS, because for some reason their insecurities make them prone to the belief of something or someone taking over their position, you proved yourself to that example. MS is a business standard, unless your government or a bank etc., then you are highly probable to be in a UNIX and COBOL environment. The point of this was to state that ignorance is not one-sided and doesn?t always have to be a knowledge based comment, but rather the views and morals that one portrays about their fellow community or career field in his inability to hold their tongue.

        • #2968346

          Job security

          by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

          In reply to RE:

          This has nothing to do with job security. I’ve forced my staff to look at Debian and Ubuntu as potential “Thin client” solutions hosting Citrix based connections to our back end servers. It is an almost viable solution, except we still have occasional need for a fat-client on the user end.

          Listen, nothing would make me (or my superiors), happier than finding a way to dump tens of thousands of dollars in volume licensing.

          I’d be an *idiot* not to consider that as a potential alternative – if it were viable.

          Unfortuantely, it isn’t. The ignorance is in Linux fanboys trotting out the same tired arguments and assumptions in these threads. You guys have a playbook that is as well rehearsed as any door-to-door religious group.

          Otherwise, your post was kind of rambling and incoherent. I understand that my tone upset you – but maybe you should count to 10 and try again, because a lot of what you were trying to say seemed kind of confused.

    • #2968551

      Do we know why?

      by chris ·

      In reply to 5 Reasons that Linux is a failure

      Any stats on why they were returned?

      Is it that they don’t function or that they are “used” to MS or something else like my brother said it was bad?

    • #2968507

      RE:

      by jon ·

      In reply to 5 Reasons that Linux is a failure

      1.) To most end users only MS exists.
      2.) XP might run on 128MB, but add a few applications and the resorces will be completely used.
      3.) Windows does not have a built-in office suit or a good light web-browser, no secure emial capabilties.
      4.) No one thinks LINUX is easier, if MS didn’t have a majority of PC sales for the past 10+ years, everyone would think learning any MS O/S would be a difficult task. Working as a consultant I’ve seen everyone stumble over the simplist task is XP or lower O/S as well.

      • #2968342

        5 Reasons

        by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

        In reply to RE:

        1 – That is still a PROBLEM for Linux, either way.

        2 – XP will RUN on a machine with 128mb though, whereas nice, loaded distros of Linux (Ubuntu for example) have HIGHER base requirements than that to even install. Don’t believe me, check it out. A regular base load of Ubuntu requires MORE system resources than XP. For a netbook, you’re not going to need that much power, so goes the idea. Yet, in either case, netbook or my old subnotebook, XP is better suited than Ubuntu.

        5) The Familiarity breeds acceptance argument. I’ll buy that. I’ve experienced it first hand. If Win32 wasn’t so dominant and widespread, it would be more rare. If someone else, Linux, OS X, AmigaOS, was the dominant paradigm, we would all be used to doing it THAT way… and Win32 would seem hard and exotic and complex.

        Yup. But… that doesn’t IMPROVE Linux’s ease of use. Linux is difficult. Props to the Linux community for improving that VASTLY in the last decade. There is still a LOT of room for improvement.

    • #3036031

      Too Many Ways of Doing Things.

      by chriscampbellchr ·

      In reply to 5 Reasons that Linux is a failure

      I’ve used Linux and other Unix variants for many weeks. I can’t tell you the days and weeks I’ve spent on the web trying to get some things to work (wireless). In the end, it was frustrating and I decided to go back to Windows for good. Whether you like it or not, the world runs on Windows and your average user doesn’t wanna change. If they do, they’ll go to Mac, not Linux. Linux belongs in the server room like Unix, not on the desktop.

      • #3036025

        Must this grave be re opened over and over?

        by slayer_ ·

        In reply to Too Many Ways of Doing Things.

        Can’t someone find a really big rock to put over top of this thing so people stop digging it up?

        • #3036017

          but it is

          by .martin. ·

          In reply to Must this grave be re opened over and over?

          a brain eating zombie…

          If you kill it, it just comes back to life!

        • #3035825

          Ya know, I would like to see a followup blog to this

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to but it is

          This is pretty old but still interesting. Wonder if in the last year, has any of the problems improved?

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