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A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection

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A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection

jkameleon
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt

Microsoft will have to work harder than ever to ram this one down my throat.
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    Tony Hopkinson

    Can't be right can it?

    It looks like a technical spec put together by three political science graduates after a recreational drug session.

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    Jaqui

    well, I posted the link to the article on a few community websites, where most members are big on games and graphics apps.

    one person actually confirmed that Vista breaks his 3d applications.
    and would not allow his games to run.
    "
    I ran the Vista Beta program also and here is what I experienced and why I dropped it and went back to XP until VISTA gets fixed....

    My video card is currently an ATI Radeon Express 200, not high end but adequate. I have been able to run Poser, Daz Studio, and several games quite successfully. But once I loaded Vista anything that used GL rendering quit working. Poser would not even load, and Daz Studio would only Spot render, it would shut down if I tried any kind of a full render... no matter what setting I tried. And all of my "high" demand graphic games quit working. I tried updating my video drivers only to have Vista tell me it could not be done as the software was not Vista compatible. At leat XP gives you the option to go ahead even if not digitally signed. In addition my printer, scanner, and digital camera quit working and they are old enough the manufacturers are not planning on releasing Vista drivers. So rather than mess with al l of these issues I re-installed XP and EVERYTHING that had quit functioning started working again right out of the box with the native windows drivers."



    MS is really screwing themselves if they release vista with it breaking old games.
    [ like pre vista release games ]

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    jkameleon

    > MS is really screwing themselves if ...

    Not necessarily.

    First, it was Office which gave Windows advantage over Linux. Now it's gaming. The next thing just might be Visual Studio 2005 and later. As far as I can tell, it's far better than any developer tool currently available on Linux.

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    Jaqui

    if you mean in automatic code generation then yup, since open source is abut quality code, not rapid code with tons of bloat.

    Linux is not about dumping code ot fast, it about creating software that is usefull, stable, and secure.
    code generators, like MS Visual Studio, cannot do that they put to much bbloat into the code.
    [ borland's Builder, Delphi etc do the same thing, it's an anti code generator comment not an anti ms comment. ]

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    jkameleon

    Intellisense, one IDE for everything, and such.


    > code generators, like MS Visual Studio, cannot do that they put to much bbloat into the code.

    As far as I can tell, the only code MS Visual Studio generates is the gruntwork UI and data access code. In any case, there is no need to generate anything if you don't want to. You are free to use your own classes for that tasks.

    Problem with generated code is not volume, but maintenance- if it's supposed to be maintained manually, which usually isn't.


    > [ borland's Builder, Delphi etc do the same thing, it's an anti code generator comment not an anti ms comment. ]

    I'm no M$ fan, I'm just lazy at typing, that's all. That's why I like intellisense. Well, I'm sure Linux guys will eventually come out with something like this.

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    Jaqui

    isn't very intelligent when it bloats the software hugely.

    I really doubt any linux developer would ever put anything like it into any linux toolkit.
    generators do not make good code.
    linux developers want good code, not bloatware code.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    is a context sensitive dictionary, not that much different to a syntax highlighter.

    Maintaining the dictionary so you can do it does take some serious clout though, more likely the IDE developer sees some more profitable avenues for that processor power, not to mention his time, doing it well, is a considerable amount of effort. After all he knows the language and he isn't writing it for someone who doesn't.

    I find intellisense most useful for things like case sensitive variable names etc.

    Especially when people with different naming styles have been mucking about in there.

    It's aimed at a particular audience, I tend to increase the delay before the invisible clippy gets involved, becomes annoying as you become more familiar with what you are doing.

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    jkameleon

    It helps you by typing, a lot. You just type a couple of characters, intellisense guesses what you are about to type, and finishes it once you enter space or delimiter. Very useful. Another feature I could hardly live without is refactoring.

    Looks like M$ finally discovered, that user experience of a developer using their tools is just about as important as user experience of a secretary using Office.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    from shake and bake. Usually things like I need a list so I'll use an invisible Listbox component. Or my 'favourite' manipulating database content through data aware components when no one needs to be aware of it.

    As much and sometimes more comes from the component hierarchy (VCL, NET or Java). Touch one piece of code and the compiler will drag in a great swathe of other stuff just to support it. Hard to impossible to avoid that in a shake and bake environment which is effectively dll based.

    That was one of the VCL's biggest problems it's inheritance dependency chains got huge.

    Essentially the design idea is you are probably going to have this in your code so you might as well re-use it. Most of the time they are right.
    Falls right into the code re-use argument which someone seems to have taken too far.

    Doing all things for all men, always means you end up with more than you want doing less of what you need.

    It's a logical progression in a world where developers cost more than hardware. Wouldn't have flown 15 to 20 years ago.

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    yup

    Jaqui

    and it's why no linux dev tools have the massive code generation capacity.

    programming in linux means programming, not churning out badly coded bloatware.

    quality over quantity, fewer EXPLOITS, fewer bugs.
    let MS keep their exploit generators and the developers that love them, linux, and the whole open source world, will happily keep writing better quality code by hand.

    editing to add:

    and you know [ or should by now ] that I'm fully in agreement with the quality over quantity aspect.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    They filled in a dozen properties wrote two lines of code, full featured client server database application!

    Barely used the keyboard, hardly any quantity to speak of

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    Jaqui

    they look at the actual code for that app and see 20 thousand lines of code that could be removed, leaving the 3 thousand lines that actually are needed.

    oh, hold it.. if they are writing a newtwork aware database app then multiply the number of lines by 10 thousand, since you have to add sockets to the app.. and add some sort of network security awareness to it.

    the code generators add properties to everything that are never used, so they become bloat and bug vectors.

    not just the gui widget properties, most of which are never used.

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    jkameleon

    Operating system has noting to do with it.

    Most of the managers see no difference between programmer's and bricklayer's work. Trowel of mortar, brick. Trowel of mortar, brick. Trowel of mortar, brick. Line of code, return. Line of code, return. Line of code, return. 40 bricks/lines of code per minute is the norm, now start plodding!

    Things are much more simple and predictable if programming work is organized in assembly line style. If everybody copy/pastes at the 1% productivity of the worst 1% of programmers, programming workforce can be hired and fired at will, and most important of all: Deadlines and cost can be estimated precisely. And that's the most important thing for managers and businessmen.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    Lowest common denominator, elevation of mediocrity.

    Some twit spends three days optimising a loop to execute an update query for every item in a list box control in a non visual application.

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    stress junkie

    I read this article a few weeks ago and then lost track of it. I had intended to search TR to find this article. Apparently someone posted here and it rose to the top of the discussion list. Yay. Now I've bookmarked the link to the report.

    Having said all of that I have one question. Why should we believe the report? Any high school kid could have written it. Any misguided FOSS fan could have made it all up. How do we know that Vista will degrade the performance of Vista compliant hardware? Do we believe it just because someone that we don't know wrote a report? Why?

    I'm no fan of Microsoft but it is important to acquire information from credible sources. What are the credentials of the person that wrote this report?

    Just because it's anti-Microsoft doesn't necessarily mean it's true.

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    Jaqui

    I have been in contact with the author, the article was a security list message he wrote.
    and since it's release hardware vendors won't talk to him any more

    he actually said that it was written "early in the testing stages" of vista, and that MS apparently is working on resolving the issues.

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    stress junkie

    Get the paper shredder Margaret. We're about to start writing the release documentation. We don't want any "trade secrets" to become public. :)

    If the accusations in the paper are correct then using Vista would be like using gasoline in your car that turns to water if you exceed the speed limit. It's just wrong, and stupid.

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    0 Votes
    Tony Hopkinson

    Can't be right can it?

    It looks like a technical spec put together by three political science graduates after a recreational drug session.

    +
    0 Votes
    Jaqui

    well, I posted the link to the article on a few community websites, where most members are big on games and graphics apps.

    one person actually confirmed that Vista breaks his 3d applications.
    and would not allow his games to run.
    "
    I ran the Vista Beta program also and here is what I experienced and why I dropped it and went back to XP until VISTA gets fixed....

    My video card is currently an ATI Radeon Express 200, not high end but adequate. I have been able to run Poser, Daz Studio, and several games quite successfully. But once I loaded Vista anything that used GL rendering quit working. Poser would not even load, and Daz Studio would only Spot render, it would shut down if I tried any kind of a full render... no matter what setting I tried. And all of my "high" demand graphic games quit working. I tried updating my video drivers only to have Vista tell me it could not be done as the software was not Vista compatible. At leat XP gives you the option to go ahead even if not digitally signed. In addition my printer, scanner, and digital camera quit working and they are old enough the manufacturers are not planning on releasing Vista drivers. So rather than mess with al l of these issues I re-installed XP and EVERYTHING that had quit functioning started working again right out of the box with the native windows drivers."



    MS is really screwing themselves if they release vista with it breaking old games.
    [ like pre vista release games ]

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    0 Votes
    jkameleon

    > MS is really screwing themselves if ...

    Not necessarily.

    First, it was Office which gave Windows advantage over Linux. Now it's gaming. The next thing just might be Visual Studio 2005 and later. As far as I can tell, it's far better than any developer tool currently available on Linux.

    +
    0 Votes
    Jaqui

    if you mean in automatic code generation then yup, since open source is abut quality code, not rapid code with tons of bloat.

    Linux is not about dumping code ot fast, it about creating software that is usefull, stable, and secure.
    code generators, like MS Visual Studio, cannot do that they put to much bbloat into the code.
    [ borland's Builder, Delphi etc do the same thing, it's an anti code generator comment not an anti ms comment. ]

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    0 Votes
    jkameleon

    Intellisense, one IDE for everything, and such.


    > code generators, like MS Visual Studio, cannot do that they put to much bbloat into the code.

    As far as I can tell, the only code MS Visual Studio generates is the gruntwork UI and data access code. In any case, there is no need to generate anything if you don't want to. You are free to use your own classes for that tasks.

    Problem with generated code is not volume, but maintenance- if it's supposed to be maintained manually, which usually isn't.


    > [ borland's Builder, Delphi etc do the same thing, it's an anti code generator comment not an anti ms comment. ]

    I'm no M$ fan, I'm just lazy at typing, that's all. That's why I like intellisense. Well, I'm sure Linux guys will eventually come out with something like this.

    +
    0 Votes
    Jaqui

    isn't very intelligent when it bloats the software hugely.

    I really doubt any linux developer would ever put anything like it into any linux toolkit.
    generators do not make good code.
    linux developers want good code, not bloatware code.

    +
    0 Votes
    Tony Hopkinson

    is a context sensitive dictionary, not that much different to a syntax highlighter.

    Maintaining the dictionary so you can do it does take some serious clout though, more likely the IDE developer sees some more profitable avenues for that processor power, not to mention his time, doing it well, is a considerable amount of effort. After all he knows the language and he isn't writing it for someone who doesn't.

    I find intellisense most useful for things like case sensitive variable names etc.

    Especially when people with different naming styles have been mucking about in there.

    It's aimed at a particular audience, I tend to increase the delay before the invisible clippy gets involved, becomes annoying as you become more familiar with what you are doing.

    +
    0 Votes
    jkameleon

    It helps you by typing, a lot. You just type a couple of characters, intellisense guesses what you are about to type, and finishes it once you enter space or delimiter. Very useful. Another feature I could hardly live without is refactoring.

    Looks like M$ finally discovered, that user experience of a developer using their tools is just about as important as user experience of a secretary using Office.

    +
    0 Votes
    Tony Hopkinson

    from shake and bake. Usually things like I need a list so I'll use an invisible Listbox component. Or my 'favourite' manipulating database content through data aware components when no one needs to be aware of it.

    As much and sometimes more comes from the component hierarchy (VCL, NET or Java). Touch one piece of code and the compiler will drag in a great swathe of other stuff just to support it. Hard to impossible to avoid that in a shake and bake environment which is effectively dll based.

    That was one of the VCL's biggest problems it's inheritance dependency chains got huge.

    Essentially the design idea is you are probably going to have this in your code so you might as well re-use it. Most of the time they are right.
    Falls right into the code re-use argument which someone seems to have taken too far.

    Doing all things for all men, always means you end up with more than you want doing less of what you need.

    It's a logical progression in a world where developers cost more than hardware. Wouldn't have flown 15 to 20 years ago.

    +
    0 Votes

    yup

    Jaqui

    and it's why no linux dev tools have the massive code generation capacity.

    programming in linux means programming, not churning out badly coded bloatware.

    quality over quantity, fewer EXPLOITS, fewer bugs.
    let MS keep their exploit generators and the developers that love them, linux, and the whole open source world, will happily keep writing better quality code by hand.

    editing to add:

    and you know [ or should by now ] that I'm fully in agreement with the quality over quantity aspect.

    +
    0 Votes
    Tony Hopkinson

    They filled in a dozen properties wrote two lines of code, full featured client server database application!

    Barely used the keyboard, hardly any quantity to speak of

    +
    0 Votes
    Jaqui

    they look at the actual code for that app and see 20 thousand lines of code that could be removed, leaving the 3 thousand lines that actually are needed.

    oh, hold it.. if they are writing a newtwork aware database app then multiply the number of lines by 10 thousand, since you have to add sockets to the app.. and add some sort of network security awareness to it.

    the code generators add properties to everything that are never used, so they become bloat and bug vectors.

    not just the gui widget properties, most of which are never used.

    +
    0 Votes
    jkameleon

    Operating system has noting to do with it.

    Most of the managers see no difference between programmer's and bricklayer's work. Trowel of mortar, brick. Trowel of mortar, brick. Trowel of mortar, brick. Line of code, return. Line of code, return. Line of code, return. 40 bricks/lines of code per minute is the norm, now start plodding!

    Things are much more simple and predictable if programming work is organized in assembly line style. If everybody copy/pastes at the 1% productivity of the worst 1% of programmers, programming workforce can be hired and fired at will, and most important of all: Deadlines and cost can be estimated precisely. And that's the most important thing for managers and businessmen.

    +
    0 Votes
    Tony Hopkinson

    Lowest common denominator, elevation of mediocrity.

    Some twit spends three days optimising a loop to execute an update query for every item in a list box control in a non visual application.

    +
    0 Votes
    stress junkie

    I read this article a few weeks ago and then lost track of it. I had intended to search TR to find this article. Apparently someone posted here and it rose to the top of the discussion list. Yay. Now I've bookmarked the link to the report.

    Having said all of that I have one question. Why should we believe the report? Any high school kid could have written it. Any misguided FOSS fan could have made it all up. How do we know that Vista will degrade the performance of Vista compliant hardware? Do we believe it just because someone that we don't know wrote a report? Why?

    I'm no fan of Microsoft but it is important to acquire information from credible sources. What are the credentials of the person that wrote this report?

    Just because it's anti-Microsoft doesn't necessarily mean it's true.

    +
    0 Votes
    Jaqui

    I have been in contact with the author, the article was a security list message he wrote.
    and since it's release hardware vendors won't talk to him any more

    he actually said that it was written "early in the testing stages" of vista, and that MS apparently is working on resolving the issues.

    +
    0 Votes
    stress junkie

    Get the paper shredder Margaret. We're about to start writing the release documentation. We don't want any "trade secrets" to become public. :)

    If the accusations in the paper are correct then using Vista would be like using gasoline in your car that turns to water if you exceed the speed limit. It's just wrong, and stupid.