Windows Forum·65,706 discussions

Are we beta testers for Microsoft?

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Over the years (since Win 3.0) I’ve had to patch, make security and other updates in order for my MS products to be usable. The email (list below) I got this morning is #1)shocking, #2) very time consuming and my time is worth money) and 3) egregious. MS is making and selling partial vaporware and completing it based on consumers complaints. This is the list for just one day for Office products:

Security Update for Excel 2003 (KB918419)
Multiple security vulnerabilities exist in Microsoft Office Excel 2003 that could allow the elevation of rights. This update addresses those vulnerabilities.

Security Update for Excel 2002 (KB918420)
Multiple security vulnerabilities exist in Microsoft Excel 2002 that could allow the elevation of rights. This update addresses those vulnerabilities.

Security Update for Excel 2000 (KB918424)
Multiple security vulnerabilities exist in Microsoft Excel 2000 that could allow the elevation of rights. This update addresses those vulnerabilities.

Security Update for Excel Viewer 2003 (KB918425)
Multiple security vulnerabilities exist in Microsoft Office Excel 2003 Viewer that could allow the elevation of rights. This update addresses those vulnerabilities.

Security Update for Office 2003 (KB917151)
A security vulnerability exists in Microsoft Office 2003 that could allow the elevation of rights. This update addresses that vulnerability.

Security Update for Office 2003 (KB914455)
A vulnerability exists in Microsoft Office 2003, Microsoft Office Project 2003, and Microsoft Office OneNote 2003 that could allow an attacker to run arbitrary code on a user?s system. This update resolves that vulnerability.

Security Update for Office XP (KB917150)
A security vulnerability exists in Microsoft Office XP that could allow the elevation of rights. This update addresses that vulnerability.

Security Update for Office XP (KB914796)
A vulnerability exists in Microsoft Office XP that could allow an attacker to run arbitrary code on a users system. This update resolves that vulnerability.

Security Update for Office 2000 (KB917152)
A security vulnerability exists in Microsoft Office 2000 that could allow the elevation of rights. This update addresses that vulnerability.

Security Update for Office 2000 (KB914797)
A vulnerability exists in Microsoft Office 2000 that could allow an attacker to run arbitrary code on a users system. This update resolves that vulnerability.

Security Update for Project 2002 (KB917150)
A security vulnerability exists in Microsoft Project 2002 that could allow the elevation of rights. This update addresses that vulnerability.

Security Update for Project 2002 (KB920102)
A vulnerability exists in Microsoft Project 2002 that could allow an attacker to run arbitrary code on a user?s system. This update resolves that vulnerability.

Security Update for Project 2000 (KB917152)
A security vulnerability exists in Microsoft Project 2000 that could allow the elevation of rights. This update addresses that vulnerability.

Security Update for Project 2000 (KB920101)
A vulnerability exists in Microsoft Project 2000 that could allow an attacker to run arbitrary code on a user?s system. This update resolves that vulnerability.

Security Update for Visio 2002 (KB917150)
A security vulnerability exists in Microsoft Visio 2002 that could allow the elevation of rights. This update addresses that vulnerability.

Update for Outlook 2003 Junk Email Filter (KB919031)
This update provides the Junk E-mail Filter in Microsoft Office Outlook 2003 with a more current definition of which e-mail messages should be considered junk e-mail. This update was released in July 2006.

Update for PowerPoint 2002 (KB917153)
This update for Microsoft PowerPoint 2002 provides Rich Text Format improvements. This update also provides the framework for a compatibility pack to open and save files by using the Open XML file format that is new to the 2007 Microsoft Office system.

Update for Word 2002 (KB917347)
This update for Microsoft Word 2002 provides Rich Text Format improvements. This update also provides the framework for a compatibility pack to open and save files by using the Open XML file format that is new to the 2007 Microsoft Office system.

Using the Office Update automatic detection tool on the Office Online Downloads site, you can find out if these updates are suitable for your Office products. Go to the Office Online Downloads site and click Check for Updates to get the latest Office updates for your computer. If any of these new updates do not appear in the list of updates returned by the automatic detection tool, then your computer does not need those updates.

*Internet service provider fees and connect-time charges may apply.

If you would prefer to receive the plain text version of Inside Microsoft Office-Product Updates Alert, reply to this e-mail, type TEXT in the Subject line, and click Send.

?2006 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. The names of the actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.

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Topic

Check thread on June’s security bulletins

In reply to Are we beta testers for Microsoft?

Go to the thread on Juhne’s security bullitens and see what I had to say a month ago about beta testing for Microsucks.

Beta Testing is right

In reply to Are we beta testers for Microsoft?

That’s what we do, pay for the priveledge of beta testing for Microsoft. If they can get us to pay for it, why should they improve?

Beta Tester for Life !

In reply to Are we beta testers for Microsoft?

So why single out Microsoft, OS X and Linux are just as guilty of leaving users vulnerable to attack. By it’s very nature the internet and broadband are the in-roads. Is it because we pay more for Microsoft ? Probably so, but they are the standard for what everyone uses and in this lifetime, nobody does much for very long for free. Even Linux has some form of funding so that the next level of improvement can be made.

XP still not done

In reply to Beta Tester for Life !

Yeah, we’re paying for improvments all right. They don’t have XP done and we’re getting inundated with how wonderful Vista and Longhorn will be. It’s beta testing for life for sure.

Vulnerabilities

In reply to Beta Tester for Life !

I see the point in vulnerabilities in any OS, and I agree that any OS is a work in progress, but I disagree with the thought of Linux and MacOS X being AS vulnerable as Windows. Yes, the internet is an inroad for hackers exploiting a vulnerability (I include broadband as a connection type to the internet), but many machines with a non-windows OS have to be in the physical possession of the hacker for a period of time in order to be cracked. I somehow don’t see a hacker gaining physical access to the CIA anytime soon.

continuous testing

In reply to Are we beta testers for Microsoft?

For the past 20 years (at least), operating systems have been too complex to comprehensively test. Applications have now joined them. The developers themselves can no longer understand all the possible interplays among features.

Black-box testing is limited by the ability to fully enumerate and define all the features. Clear-box testing is impossible because there are too many logical paths to work economically; the test period would be longer than the market window.

The product does not make a discrete transition from beta to general use; it moves along overlapping continuous curves in decreasing degrees of beta, through a life cycle and into increasing degrees of stale.

too complex…………….yeah right

In reply to continuous testing

“For the past 20 years (at least), operating systems have been too complex to comprehensively test. Applications have now joined them. The developers themselves can no longer understand all the possible interplays among features.”

Funny how games can be so complex and still released without a million patches to make them work right. Just the opposite, now we have “cheats” at games like Doom and other ‘complex’ games.
Further things became so complex because of Windows and their haphazard approach to ‘getting it on the market’. Replacing commands with (GUI’s)pictures is what started the ball rolling.
I can remember very complex applications that were DOS or UNIX based that never had the problems Windoze presents.

Not strictly true…

In reply to too complex…………….yeah right

If you consider the size of some of todays OS’s and Applications – some of them running into 10s of millions of lines of code – is it entirely surpising that they have errors in them? They are after all written and checked by humans. Add to that the fact that there are people out there who actively look for these problems and try to take advantage of them. The sole reason MS products appear to have more holes in them is purely because there are many millions more installations of them than Linux or Mac OS’s/applications. Thus it stands to reason that there are going to be more reported bugs/holes/vulnerabilities, if for no other reason than the law of averages.

Frankly id rather the problems were reported so that MS can fix them rather than them being unfixed and leave my systems vulnerable. However any person, or organisation, that does not have at least a software firewall between themselves and the internet is, in this day and age, is effectively hanging out a sign saying ‘Hack me please!’.

Myth

In reply to Not strictly true…

“The sole reason MS products appear to have more holes in them is purely because there are many millions more installations of them than Linux or Mac OS’s/applications.”

This is a very stubborn myth, and have been shot down many times. I’ll do it again.

The number of errors in any SW has nothing to do with how many copies are in use, that’s simple logic. The number of persons being affected by these holes are directly proportional to the number of copies in use. Software quality is directly linked to programming quality, not to to quantity in use.

If Microsofts ‘Security by obscurity’ thesis works, there should be _NO_ ‘issues’ in Microsoft SW, as the guard the source code like a hot military secrets. They won’t even tell you how your documents are stored. Reality shows this it no so, and it looks like Microsoft neither will listen nor learn.
They have all the money needed to make it safe and perfect – last year they netted 13.000.000.000 dollars by incrasing sales by 9% and netprofit by 14%, and instead of fixing what the world use, they have spent – I have forgot how many years – to tell us, that ‘This time with Longhorn or whatever we finally did it’.
I recall this phrase sinced the early 90’es, and I never forget Balmer dancing around yelling ‘Windows2000 – the OS never needing a fixpack’. Now we are on W/2000 SR4 and hotfixes still rolling.
With W/2000 still not fixed, they unleashed XP upon the unsuspecting masses, and now it is Vista.

Certainly due time to move on to something else. I did 3 years ago, and I’ll never go back. I have the pleasure of Linux and OSx at home, and the ‘pleasure’ of XP Pro at work.

patches and updates

In reply to Myth

if you run linux, then you are doing alot more daily patching and updating of all the fragments that make up your distro of choice then you are with windows… if your not, you better start.

What?

In reply to patches and updates

So you don’t patch 3rd party apps in Windows? I’m glad to hear that…I’ll stop today.

Actualy not.

In reply to patches and updates

I patch my Suse everytime the “traffic light” in the bottom right corner turns red, and it displays a message “Updates available, or “Security updates available”. I see what they are, and deselect those I’m sure I don’t need. I don’t use wireless, so all the HW related stuff to this or that wireless card, manuals in Czech language or whatever irrelevant I deselect. This happens in irregular intervals, as contrary to MS, Linux patches are available almost immediately after a bug is found, and not one month later – if ever. Also contrary to Windows, reboots are not needed. Contrary to MS too, this entire process runs in the background, and I can minimize the windows and use my browser for other things. I think it is a nice touch that I even get the updates to whatever 3’rd party I have in the distro, without having to search here, there and everywhere to find them.

Windows update only updates Windows, all the bad stuff now discoveed in the Office package are not patched, but with the launch of Microsoft update this is now better. Actually I thought until quite recently that updates of the Office Suite were unneeded. How should a simple typewriter application be capable of feeding badware into your system? Shouldn’t the OS take care of that?

I got wiser, and so did a lot of other people, to the extent that many now think, “is it never going to end, will it ever be safe and trustworthy?” I think the answer is no, backed by 20 years of using Microsoft products and competing products.

Would you like some cheese with your whine?

In reply to too complex…………….yeah right

> I can remember very complex applications that were
> DOS or UNIX based that never had the problems
> Windoze presents.

That’s a completely asinine comparison to be making.
It’s like saying… “Damn…there sure is a lot more work needed to maintain my car these days. We never had these problems with the horse and buggy.”

It’s called progress.
It’s called infinitely more complexity between DOS and Windows.
It’s called being able to do more with technology.

If you don’t like Windows and you are too clueless to understand what it means to produce an operating system consisting of MILLIONS of lines of code, and the only thing you can do is complain about “beta testing for Microsoft”, then here’s a novel idea – why not switch to Linux or Mac?

Funny thing is…I booted up SuSE 10.1 the other day…and the automatic update notifier told me there were 55 updates ready to be downloaded.

I guess that throws a wrench into your beta-testing-for-Microsoft-conspiracy theory, huh?

People are not perfect.
And when imperfect people create something, guess what – you’re bound to have imperfections. I know it’s a crazy concept, but try your best to wrap your feeble little brain around it.

Who ‘s whining ?

In reply to Would you like some cheese with your whine?

You compare SuSE updates with M$ updates …
I ‘m certain those 55 SuSE updates weren’t all Security related !
M$ updates rarely are related to something different.
Sometimes they are even updates on updates !
Nice testing !

@

You ‘d better read this !

In reply to Would you like some cheese with your whine?

http://www.gripe2ed.com/scoop/story/2006/7/24/8477/16185

Who ‘s whining ?
It ‘s completely understandable feeling against companies who don’t know what customer support is (anymore) !
The only thing on their mind is money !

@

Yes…I read it. Just made me laugh.

In reply to You ‘d better read this !

> You ‘d better read this !
> http://www.gripe2ed.com/scoop/sto…

Okay…I read it.
What’s your point?
Are you trying to show me that the world is full of stupid people (the same kind that started this whining thread to begin with)??

Here’s a direct quote from that article:
—————————————-
The outcome? “We have spent approximately $3000 in additional labor costs to reinstall and reactivate our Dell Optiplex machines,” the reader wrote. “We’ve decided that it’s actually much more cost-effective not to apply any Microsoft security updates ever again.
—————————————-

So, what you have is a company whose IT department is obviously being run by a moron who couldn’t put two brain cells together to save his life. Rather than eradicating the problems he was having with the idiotic WGA nonsense, he somehow managed to waste $3000 and at the end of it all, he was still left with the exact same problem that could flare up at any time (if you buy into that).

It would’ve taken ANY halfway-qualified admin to go into each of those machines and rip out all traces of the WGA activation DLLs and executables. Total time required: approximately 5 minutes per machine (most of that time is spent watching the reboot process). They had 15 machines to fix, so 5 minutes times 15 machines equals 75 minutes (tops).

The fact that they instead chose to waste all that time on the phone to some buffoons in India getting the runaround is just further indicative of extreme incompetence at that company. $3,000 to re-install an entire operating system on 15 different machines…and all the while it could’ve been fixed by ripping out two little files.
Jesus.

If a pipe breaks in your house, are you going to keep calling plumbers on the phone and trying to explain the problem until you find one who will be available to come out to your house and fix the problem that same day? Or are you going to use your common sense and go do whatever you can to plug the leak, keep your house from flooding, and THEN get on the phone and deal with it once it’s no longer urgent?

Some people just don’t know HOW to use common sense — and that isn’t Microsoft’s fault.

my point …

In reply to Yes…I read it. Just made me laugh.

since the mighty M$ is dishing out the keys, they should know how to track bad ones …
If that guys company bought machines from Dell, they should have had WGA proof software on their machines.
Any other installs on their Windows OS shouldn’t affect the Windows key, nor the WGA function.
So, they shouldn’t have had this trouble in the first place, whether the guy is a ICT-moron or not !
For their client’s sake, they should have made WGA fireproof before launching it !

The fact that they want to catch pirates shouldn’t be at any cost to their ‘real’ customers, certainly not commercial ones !

@

Points and counterpoints…

In reply to my point …

> If that guys company bought machines from Dell,
> they should have had WGA proof software on their
> machines.

You’re blaming Microsoft for something that NO software company on earth (as far as I know) has ever done.
Think about ALL the various software packages that require some kind of license key or activation code (whether it’s shareware, trialware, or commercial). How many of those can you name which have a “license bypass” system? I don’t know of a single one…so why would you expect Microsoft to use one?

> For their client’s sake, they should have made
> WGA fireproof before launching it !

Yeah…and car manufacturers should produce perfect cars that never roll over, so that their customers never die. But for as long as we’re living in the real world, imperfect humans will always create imperfect products. Microsoft is no exception.

> The fact that they want to catch pirates
> shouldn’t be at any cost to their ‘real’
> customers, certainly not commercial ones !

I agree completely. I think this entire WGA fiasco is going to haunt Microsoft in the long term, and it’s only a matter of time before they’re forced to backtrack and abandon it altogether once the outcry becomes large enough and public enough.

You would think that a company with enough talent and resources that’s been around for 25 years would understand that there’s no such thing as “stopping piracy”. Any semi-competent programmer will tell you that if you spend 5 hours on putting anti-piracy code in your product, the only thing you’ve done is wasted 5 hours of your life. If you spend 500 hours, you’ve wasted 500 hours. And so on.

But no matter how stupid Microsoft was for implementing it in the first place, it doesn’t excuse other forms of stupidity on the part of system administrators who waste $3000 on something that could’ve been accomplished for free with only one hour’s worth of effort.

There is a bright side to this all

In reply to too complex…………….yeah right

So long as MS puts out buggy products as much as it does, you will still have a good paying job. It may be frustrating, but you will have bread on the table and money in the bank. If they ever get on the stick and actually put out products that work right out of the box, then you will be reduced to being clerks.

At the same time, it does frost me that you pay good money for a product that is so full of holes you end up working all the time just to fill them. IT is sort of a Sisyphus job where there is never an end to anything and MS just ensures that it remains that way.

This is nothing new, however. I remember when OS for the mainframe came out. The day you got your release you also got a set of fixes for bugs. The same with manuals. You got a full set of manuals with your OS and you also got a set of changes to the manuals. One place with several sets of manuals had a secretary whose job was maintaining the set of manuals and that is all she did for a couple of years.

I do think that MS is far more guilty of this than the other software companies I have worked with. They were so bad that a whole industry grew up in fixing what MS did wrong and that one also has bugs (Norton, anyone???). So far, knock on wood, Firefox and Linux have not gotten that bad in my experience. I only hope for our sanity that finally MS is putting out a product that actually works the way it says it does and works without a lot of bugs. Then the IT industry can get back to doing what it is supposed to do. I think I was lucky to retire before we got to the extreme bugs that are out there now.

Beta, Beta, Beta

In reply to continuous testing

I hear all the complaints about beta testing this or that and believe me when I say I have my own, but the truth of the matter is I enjoy trying the new program esp. Microsoft Office, yes the 2007 beta version has many quirks but it has increased my ability to make better looking documents exponenially and truthfully I like the new interface better than the old one.

jtuper, I am experiencing a few glitches myself in the new

In reply to Beta, Beta, Beta

beta Office 2007. Just a few. Want to compare notes? Maybe help each other out? I kept all my 2003’s (Word, Excel, PPT, etc.) as well as the new 2007 but have had to sacrifice my 2003 Outlook, as you’re supposed to do for the 2007 version. I only have two questions so far:

1. Did Outlook install correctly for you? After the 3rd install of Outlook, I still keep getting upon load, the error 2711.And internal error has occurred. (Outlook CDO). That’s really helpful, huh? I googled it and searched what other boards I could find and nothing. Well, something about CDO’s (MS Collaboration Data Objects) but didn’t want to download because of other reports I read that seemed that download might be untrustworthy. Any ideas?

2. I cannot find the whole Tools > Options options in Word. You know, like the default File Locations settings, etc. Might you know where these are?

Any questions or blimps that you have had, please just send on over. Or if you know a good discussion board that I can to check, that would be grand as well.

Thanks much! I’m excited about the new GUI and it actually has a great feel to it. I just have to find everything again. I also know and teach WordPerfect as well as Word and to tell you the truth…WordPerfect is closer to the old Word than the new Word is. Weird!

Thanks tons!

Hi there…

In reply to jtuper, I am experiencing a few glitches myself in the new

The settings that you are looking for are in the File Menu(the office Icon at the top) look all the way to the bottom it says Word Options. Under that tab you will find what you are looking for as far as where to save things and what not.

I also love the new GUI. I like the way it is much simpler. I also kept all of my old 2003 programs just in case. I have noticed that everytime you do a windows update that your going to have to reinstall Outlook. I have no idea why that is but everytime I do my updats thats what happens I get a .dll missing error.

P.S. we are both in NY which I think is great.

Tools > Options options in Word 2007 beta

In reply to jtuper, I am experiencing a few glitches myself in the new

Click on the circular Microsoft XP logo on the top left corner of the Word Document. You will get a menu. At the bottom just besides “EXIT WORD” you will find Tool options for Word.

Same problem with Outlook 2007

In reply to jtuper, I am experiencing a few glitches myself in the new

It always feels a little better knowling that others are experiencing the same difficulties. I also get an error message 2711 and cannot figure out why this message is still generated. It does not appear that uninstalling and reinstalling has any effect whatsoever on this error. If I figure it out, I’ll let you know.

Software can not be 100% tested

In reply to Are we beta testers for Microsoft?

This is an impossibility. There will be always be security problems. Look at any main stream software out there and you will find security releases, patches to fix functionality and the like. I think that more modular software is tends to require fewer security patches, but on a whole no software is perfect. How many Kernel revisions has linux gone through in the last two years?

Bill

Sure it can

In reply to Software can not be 100% tested

Two years is not 25 years and that’s how long windoze has been pulling this stuff. Why is it that very complex games don’t have these problems. Because they are thoroughly beta tested before release since primary gamers can’t or won’t put up with what business will. And the reason business puts up with it is that you can hire anyone with no special training and teach them to point and click on pretty pictures, GUI’s. Why doeesn’t Apple have these problems?
Because they don’t offer a new ‘must have’ every 5 years.
When they released win 3.0 why didn’t they stay with that till that didn’t need patches, work arounds etc.
Nooo, Mr. Gates wanted to increase his bottom line so win 3.1 came out that was supposed to fix all the problems 3.0 had plus add features.
Now we’ve had XP for 5 years and since the bottom line again prevails Vista and Longhorn will be shipped on every new computer and server in about mid 2007.

Why do we allow it ???

In reply to Sure it can

M$ leaves his customers NO choice; if I go and buy a PC now, I have to take WinXP with it !
Who says ?
M$ …
The shop cannot sell me a PC with Windows 2000 on it, because M$ says so !

Why do we as customers allow that ?
Why do consumer groups allow it ?
Where is consumer choice that we can’t opt for the more patched and tested O.S. when we buy and PAY for a new machine ?

It ‘s our money, the choice should be ours too !

@

Shop where you like…

In reply to Why do we allow it ???

You have the choice of buying your system wherever you like — if your vendor has only MS-pre-configed machines — go somewhere else.

Try IBM for example.

Quit whining and buy an empty box and put whatever you want on it. Not a problem.

Sorry …

In reply to Shop where you like…

I wasn’t clear enough probably;
I was talking about purchases for private use; I only buy white goods (or how do you call them).
It ‘s those shops who are harassed by M$ to install Windows XP (now) and Vista (in future) !

If I want to install something else on a new machine, I need to buy it in parts, assemble them and install f.e. Windows 2000 on it …

If I want a machine with Windows on it, say for a friend, I have to take XP.
And that ‘s NOT a recent thing either.
A school friend of mine wanted to buy a PC for his son (at that time Windows Me just had been released).
When we went to collect the box at the shop, it had Millenium installed !
When I asked for Windows 98SE, they told me they were NOT allowed to sell that anymore !
(That was 2000, I think) …

@

whaaaa?

In reply to Sorry …

So you’re pissed that MS will no longer sell you a discontinued product? How stupid is that? Try your argument on GM…
“I’d like to purchase a ’67 vette, and at ’67 prices no less…”

Sometimes there is no where else

In reply to Shop where you like…

When your job is to keep the customer’s computers/servers running and all the equipment is MS you don’t have the luxury of saying “I’ll go somewhere else”. I’d love to be able to work in a Unix, Linux, even DOS environment; but employers want to be able to hire people they only have to train to “point and click” and Apple don’t cut it.

edited out

In reply to Shop where you like…

edited out

stop whining?

In reply to Shop where you like…

you are as depenable as those you depend on.
anyone that is married knows that if you don’t cheat. . .you don’t get cheated on. . .
who said I’m shopping for myself?
and why does my insignifigant other get to unload on me for things not of my concern?
its not my fault for many reasons, but as for someone that has a clue, I try to explain the unexplainable for the simple fact that their voice is less than comforting. sure there are other operating systems, but try telling some one that wants everything done for them that they need to do something. . .
your advice is like a sigh of frustration

I’d love to see…

In reply to Shop where you like…

I have often suggested that Microsoft fold up the US business and set up shop in the Cayman Islands.

Life would be grand!

No tax (US Government would go broke), no hassles from annoying law suits (or other whiners) and talk about a beautiful work environment for all the geeks!

True life is different

In reply to I’d love to see…

US government would go broke ?
Last year MS earned 13 bn dollars, had a cash reserve about 37 bn, and paid about 3 billion in taxes. They used 8 bn in marketing and about 4 bn in administartion/general expenses.
US government tax income was $1.862 trillion. Think the 3 bn from Microsft doesn’t count much in that picture as it amounts to 0,000016 percent.

No hassles from governments or individuals?.
Contrary to what most americans believe, you are subject to the laws of the countries where you do business. The EU would whip MS just as much if MS were based in the Cayman as if they were based anywhere else.

Folding up business entirely would create an offspring of alternatives, which greatly would promote competition in a stiffled market, and give true innovation a chance.

Bill Gates could move MS to Cayman (a well known pirates liar in the past), and it wouldn’t hurt anybody.

no real market

In reply to Why do we allow it ???

Build your own, knucklehead.
There is no substantial market for a box with no OS. And we pay more to buy Windows ourselves than already installed.
Or as another poster pointed out, there are options for prebuilt empty boxes.

not true…

In reply to Sure it can

I understand the frustration with Microsoft… but you are wrong about games. Every game I have purchased has had major update available on the internet. Bugs are a fact of life.

you’re using GAMES as an example?

In reply to Sure it can

First games are far from bug free. I run into video artifacts in 3-D shooters, and script glitches in RPG’s all the time. Quite often they just never bother to fix them.

Secondly, games have a distinct advantage over say, and office app, in that they don’t have to integrate/interface with anything else. Their encapsulation and singular purpose makes them much more resilient to problems.

Yes and No

In reply to Software can not be 100% tested

Software can be 100% tested, however the cost is to say the least prohibitive. In fact if MS attempted to do it they would go out of business.

Not just them, any one with a product with a a lot of legacy code and backwards compatitibility using of multiple platforms, will have problems.

MS’ real problem is they’ve delayed so long on the quality front, they’ve ended up in a postion where it’s impossible to come up with a business proposal to address the issues, so yes we are beta testers, MS have no choice, so most of their effort is spent making sure we don’t either.

The only thing we can do as developer’s is reduce bugs, there are a whole raft of ways to do this.

Refactoring, archictecture, lifecycle methodologies, scope reductions, risk analysis, using competent people. You can’t pick out one as the silver bullet and they all cost money.

In a competive market the cost of removing bugs is balanced by the prospect of increased sales through quality, spotting the problem here ?

Off course – waht else-

In reply to Are we beta testers for Microsoft?

All try to cheat Bill Gates, so off course we do support.

Umm…

In reply to Are we beta testers for Microsoft?

Yes.

Stop Whining

In reply to Are we beta testers for Microsoft?

This whole thread sounds like whining…

Yes, Microsoft ships imperfect product. Yes, Bill Gates wishes to continuously improve his revenues and his bottom line (many people have made small fortunes on his wicked ways).

Do you REALLY believe you have no choices? Whether you are talking about gaming or corporate platforms, individuals or business… you will always have choices. There are not great numbers of corporations using Linux on the desktop (which also sports its share of “fixes” and “patches”), but they are out there. There are not many Apple shops out there (and yes… Apple issues updates, too), but they are out there. If you don’t want to work with Microsoft products, then don’t.

Personally (and professionally), I have found Microsoft products to be reasonably priced, though certainly not the cheapest and rarely free. They have been adequate to the task on most issues we have had to address. The company provides decent support, though not perfect.

Frankly, they helped to fuel an entire micro-economy for a while. Many in IT today owe more than they may think to the Microsoft machine.

Are they perfect? No. Is ANYONE or ANYTHING out there today perfect? No.

Work with what you have and strive for excellence in what you do and stop worrying about beta testing Microsoft’s products.

Blinds?

In reply to Stop Whining

Yes, most Sw are fixed during its lifespan. In the 35 years I have been working with IT, I have worked with most of the systems that was aound, form ounched card stuff, over mainframes, midranges, Unix, DOS, OS/2, Apple, Linux and Windows.

They all get ‘fixpacks’, ‘service releases’, ‘program temporary fixes’ or whatever they are called.

But NONE of them absolutely none, to the extent of Microsoft. One year I kept track of fixes for Outlook, in order to get the OK for scapping it for something else, almost anything else. During that year, think it was 2003, MS shipped more than 100 fixes for Outlook, some of them the size of the entire program.

I just don’t think they can. They have obviously no change management as some fixes patch error created by the latest fix, they have got used to being able to sell anything they market, they’ve grown fat and lazy, they are fighting in court on every frontier and losing, and will be overtaken by lean and hungry organisations in the future.

Look at what the smart guys in universities are using, ’cause that’s what we will use in businesses in 10 years. It is not Windows.

Right on!!!

In reply to Stop Whining

If the tables were turned and Apple or Linux were the most prevalent OSs out there, they would be the ones targeted for security holes. Micro$oft must be doing something right, otherwise no one would be using it.

Right off !!

In reply to Right on!!!

“If the tables were turned and Apple or Linux were the most prevalent OSs out there, they would be the ones targeted for security holes.”
With this statement you succumb to the myth that the number of errors programmers make in the code is related to the number of copies sold. This thesis is of course false and has no logic in it whatsoever. Your theory also implies that the number of security holes, the inbuilt protection and security, and the level of knowledge to exploit these, are the same in all three systems.

Simple statistics shows this is not so, history bqacks it (one of the worst worms were written in 3 lines of VBA), and detailed explaniations of why it is so are readily available.

The oft-cited comparison on Apache versus Internet Information Server is still valid, and disproves your point.

How we love to bash the thing that gives us our jobs.

In reply to Right off !!

I listen to the people who cry Microsoft is buggy and unreliable, because it makes your job difficult. Do you Linux lovers ever reboot your systems because I bet you will be surprised by the number of fixes that will be done before your system is ready to go. Apple just denies there are any bugs and charges you for a new OS every 12 months. The original poster to this site, I have never received an email from Microsoft about deficiencies in my OS. Microsoft does not contact customers directly but pushes fixes out monthly and more often if required. That is the purpose of Windows and Office Update and the automated update service. I have several machines around me all running Windows and an update has never broken my systems. I use my OS versions for what they are designed for and do not try to make them do something they weren’t designed to do. Knock on wood, but so far I have not been hit with any viruses or other malware because I apply strict rules as to what can be installed and by whom. Users have only the rights they need and no more. The network is stealthed to the Internet and only one machine faces outwards to handle traffic.

I do have a Linux box just to see if there is anything worthwile out there that might be useful, unfortunately there is not, but we do insist it be rebooted weekly just to see the number of updates that will be done.

If you don’t believe me check Bugtraq.com to compare how many Linux bugs are dicovered versus MS software. The only time Apple issues a bug fix is when it is highly critical and all others are saved for the yearly update to their product.

The point, I see a bunch of whiners and not one thank you to a company who provides fixes for free and listens to you by correcting problems you have experienced. Heinlen said it best when he coined the phrase “There ain’t no such thing as a free lunch.” So if you are so unhappy with something you paid for go to Linux and then look enviously at the Windows users with their software options, which someday might be available to you.

FOR SALE

In reply to How we love to bash the thing that gives us our jobs.

http://bugtraq.techbuyer.com/techbuyer/index.jsp?portal_id=130&domain=bugtraq.com&keyword=computer-security&referrer=

Can’t be searched anymore, the Domaine is for sale …

You ‘re not together up-to-date.
[If I post a link, I check it first]

@

Whining????

In reply to Are we beta testers for Microsoft?

Seems like everytime someone complains about not getting what they pay for its labeled as whining.
Well whining is about all we can do if we expect a company with such a firm grasp on the market as Microsoft to provide a quality product. And yes whether you like it are not, we are Beta Testers for much of the software released today.

Wanted: Beta Testers for Whiner’s Inc.

In reply to Whining????

> Well whining is about all we can do if we expect a
> company with such a firm grasp on the market as
> Microsoft to provide a quality product.

No, whining is NOT the only thing you can do.
If you’re so disgusted with MS, why not move to Linux? It’s been around for 20 years…it’s always been free…and it’s not affiliated with Microsoft in any way whatsoever. So that must automatically mean that it’s vastly superior, right? Oh wait…if that were true…I guess 95% of computers around the world wouldn’t be running Windows.

Lame excuse

In reply to Wanted: Beta Testers for Whiner’s Inc.

Come on, you can do better than that.

Very few people chose Windows because the explicitly wanted that. The vast majority use Windows because that was what the PC came preinstalled with.
Lots of people are disgusted by Windows, not ‘Joe User’ buying a PC in the local shop, he thinks it is a Windows PC, and know nothing about alternatives. Look what the professionals do, ever wondered what all those Linux servers are doing in the serverrooms ? Or wondered why Linux is widespread in the Universities ? The frontrunners made a selection, and they didn’t select Windows.

Linux hasn’t been around for 20 years. Linux for the general public has been around for 5-6 years, and yes it was pestered with errors in the beginning. Windows have been around for 20 years, and it is STILL pestered with errors.

Lame is arguing something you don’t know

In reply to Lame excuse

> Come on, you can do better than that.

I don’t need to “do better”, because the facts speak for themselves.

> Lots of people are disgusted by Windows, not
> ‘Joe User’ buying a PC in the local shop, he
> thinks it is a Windows PC, and know nothing
> about alternatives.

Well, it would seem to me that if you’re “disgusted” by something, then you would automatically go and seek alternatives, no? If your car dies on you every two weeks, are you going to keep buying that same brand of car for the rest of your life? No, of course not. You’re going to do some research and buy the one that has the least number of problems.

If a certain airline has a record of crashing every two months, are you going to fly with them on all of your vacations or business trips? No, of course not.

If a certain grocery store is known for selling overpriced and low-quality food, are you going to keep shopping there? No, of course not.

So…if you’re so “disgusted” by Microsoft or Windows, then logic and common sense dictates that you MOVE to alternatives. No excuses…no need for whining.

> Look what the professionals do, ever wondered
> what all those Linux servers are doing in the
> serverrooms ? Or wondered why Linux is
> widespread in the Universities ?

Businesses and universities have budgets to deal with. If a system admin goes to his boss with the proposal of paying $2500 for Microsoft server software, versus paying $0 for Linux, the boss will pick the free option, despite not having the first clue about what makes the two products different, or what makes them tick, or what makes one better than the other.

But the server room and the desktop are two VERY different things, which is why Windows is still found on 95% of all desktops around the world, even though it isn’t free.

> Linux hasn’t been around for 20 years. Linux for
> the general public has been around for 5-6 years

Before making such ridiculous statements, please check your facts. I’ve been downloading Linux builds through FTP distributors for well over 12 years now. And prior to that, Linux was still very much around and available — it’s just that I myself had no interest in it. The first Linux builds were made public in 1991.

> and yes it was pestered with errors in the
> beginning.

It still is, and always will be.
Every time you add new features, you introduce new bugs. Every time your software grows, you introduce new bugs. Every time your source code goes from 50,000 to 100,000 lines of code, you guessed it — you’re going to introduce new bugs.
No software will ever be perfect…not even the mighty (and free) Linux.
Get used to it.

Wrong and no

In reply to Wanted: Beta Testers for Whiner’s Inc.

Linux has been around (technically) since 1991. It has been generally available to the public since around 2000 (maybe you could say 1995, but until the 2.0 kernel hit it wasn’t made for the general population and it was really made to be a server OS and not for general consuption)

You can’t just “move” away from MS if you are a typical user. MS shoves their products down your throat…it is VERY hard to buy a naked PC.

Oh and 95% of the worlds computers don’t run MS OSes.

Speaking of wrong…

In reply to Wrong and no

> You can’t just “move” away from MS if you are a
> typical user.

Sure you can. It’s called “choice”.
Nobody FORCES you to use anything on your computer. If you don’t like the word processor that you’re using, get another one. If you don’t like your MP3 player, get another one.
Your operating system is no different. If you have so many complaints about it — GET ANOTHER ONE.

> MS shoves their products down your throat…it
> is VERY hard to buy a naked PC.

Doesn’t matter what comes installed on your computer when you buy it. The bottom line is that if you don’t like something and you have so many complaints about it, you move on to something else.

> Oh and 95% of the worlds computers don’t run MS
> OSes.

Uhhh…okay…so what percentage do YOU believe?
At least TRY and get your facts straight before arguing them. Otherwise it just makes you look really foolish.

Here are some quick quotes that I dug up just within the last 5 minutes:

“By allowing Macs to run Microsoft Corp.’s (MSFT) Windows, the operating system found on more than 90 percent of the world’s personal computers”

“At the 2004 IDC Directions conference, IDC Vice President Avneesh Saxena stated that Windows had approximately 90% of the client operating system market.”

“Microsoft Windows is installed on the vast majority of personal computers. A July 2005 poll of Network Computing magazine readers found that 90% of their organizations used Microsoft’s desktop operating systems.”

I could keep going with countless other examples, but I’m sure you get the point.

There are 3 basic choices for operating systems: Microsoft, Linux, Mac.
Given that Linux and Mac are a tiny fraction of the overall market, I don’t know why you’re surprised (or unaware) that Windows is, in fact, found on the vast majority of computers around the world.

Whining????

In reply to Are we beta testers for Microsoft?

Seems like everytime someone complains about not getting what they pay for its labeled as whining.
Well whining is about all we can do if we expect a company with such a firm grasp on the market as Microsoft to provide a quality product. And yes whether you like it are not, we are Beta Testers for much of the software released today.

What Else is New?

In reply to Are we beta testers for Microsoft?

I’ve been saying this for years. I don’t implement anything
Microsoft makes unless I *have* to, and even then, not until SP1 for
it comes out, if not SP2.

They can find their own guinea pigs.

Nobodys perfect.

In reply to Are we beta testers for Microsoft?

I have worked with computers since CPM was new. I have seen them get faster, more powerful, and more intergrated. Computer programing is very complex and getting them to operate together seamlessly opens vunerabilities. Bad people exploit these openings. I patch using WSUS so it is not much of a burden (10K+ clients). I would rather have MS patch problems as they find them, then Apples procedure of release a new OS version. I especially appreciate MS commitment to supporting legacy applications, despite the vunerabilities it introduces. Apple doe not extend the same consideration and we are having to re-purchase software from their new hardware platform. If it was not for bad people, life would be a great deal easier. We can always find something to complain about, or we can find something to celebrate, the choice is ours.

No software is 100%

In reply to Are we beta testers for Microsoft?

No software ever has been 100% right out of the box. I can say I’m beta testing everything in my organizatio, fronm AutoCAD to my Linux based appliances and routers.

There are always going to be issues found, improvements to be made and things to be patched no matter who makes the software. I can’t believe what some of you are posting. Anybody who thinks they can make a perfect piece of software must have a God complex. It simply isn’t possible.

Buffer overrun …

In reply to No software is 100%

How many M$ patches have been related to this item ‘buffer overrun’ ???

Lots and lots and lots !

Is it that much trouble to search for the use of a buffer in a Windows OS (of which you have the source code, as M$ programmers do) and to correct that use so as it CANNOT be ‘overrun’ anymore ???

After the first report of the misuse of a buffer in this way, they should have been checked all to plug that HOLE !

This is not something that has emerged in WinXP !
It was there from the start, but now, years and yonks later, it still exists !??

There wasn’t even a rigorous policy during the creation of a ‘NEW’ OS by M$ to ensure that nothing was written (or copied) that would enable the (mis)use of ‘buffer overrun’ !

What kind of Management is that ?
Microsoft’s …

@

Common problem in IT

In reply to Buffer overrun …

I had a contract with a company that had a prima donna programmer working for them. He made a change and then went on vacation and the program blew up. I went in to fix it for them. I traced the problem back to data at the beginning and found that he had patched one place but left a bunch of others unpatched. I fixed it at the start one time and the problem was over. He came back from vacation and pitched a fit, took out my patch, put his back in and then went around patching all the other places.

He reminds me of MS. Instead of going back, as in this case of buffer overrun, and fixing it at the source, they patch it whenever it shows up. Result is it keeps showing up and they keep patching. Advantage to MS is they can keep more people busy and put out more patches and the customer will keep on applying all the patches and saying that MS supports them because look at all the problems they are fixing for us. Disadvantage is that maybe people are starting to realize that the emperor has no clothes and that the fixes should be made elsewhere one time instead of where they are many times.

In my experience some of the other software companies are doing what MS should have done and those are the ones I want to support and use. When you look at the code and there are more patches than original code, then there is a problem and the problem is that those supporting are not fixing the problem where it should be fixed and before it gets to the point where you fix it all over the place.

Some is

In reply to No software is 100%

Naturally any piece of software evolves with user input, as the times changes. New functions are wanted, some are found unneeded, some are added via a fixpack some are postponed until a new version is released.

But NO other company than Microsoft ships an OS with more than 50.000 KNOWN errors, even reusing vulnerable code from older versions, and let their Cxx jump around on a stage yelling “This is perfect – it will NEVER need an update”.

This they’ve done since the start 25 years ago, and many people reached the point where enough is enough. They’ve discovered the truth that “you can’t cheat everybody all the time”

MS is just your whipping boy for today…

In reply to Are we beta testers for Microsoft?

and you likely came up with this stupid idea for a post while sitting on the toilet relieving yourself of the foul contents that make you feel this way. Sure throw around the jargon vaporware. I bet it makes you feel really manly. I don’t like MS any more than the next guy, but for pete’s sake, you’re a freakin malcontent trying to make yourself feel good by beating on MS. Get a life!

It’s not just M$…

In reply to MS is just your whipping boy for today…

try Novell,Symantec,CA.

ALL software vendors put out beta software as “release” code.

It’s a sign of the software industry’s lack of integrety.

Just get it out the door and say it is newer ,better ,faster and has more bells and whistles.

If you read the EULA on most software ,it basically says it may or may not work,
and if it doesn’t,all that we’re liable for is the price of the software.

That’s like buying a car and saying it may or may not get you to work in the morning safely.
And if it happens to fall apart in the middle of rush hour while you’re going 70 mph,hey ,not our fault.

However,we have liability laws for most everthing except software.

And the software industry wants to take it even further(check out the UCTIA).

It ain’t just M$,it’s the industry as a whole.

WOW…

In reply to MS is just your whipping boy for today…

I have seen your post before. I used to be just like you. No friends, no girl, a slow computer, parents that hated me… Yup, I used to be just like you…

Keeps me in a job

In reply to Are we beta testers for Microsoft?

If M$ were any better of a company (organized, solid & reliable software, never needing upgrades nor updates), I would be out of a job plain and simple. Our 7-technician team would probably consist of just one person and he/she would be also studying various styles of thumb-twiddling.

Google, for one example, is very trustworthy, but no one ever calls me for help with it. If Google really does take over the world, as it threatens to do, I’ll probably be waiting tables at Fudruckers.

Edited to add: (And I really AM a beta-tester for M$.)

state of the art unfinished business

In reply to Are we beta testers for Microsoft?

my computer hasn’t made it to that level,
(i’m on 17 in your list)
I’ve even had to sit on the phone for an hour (2wice) with microsoft after looking for a pair of pants for my wife online.
(seems that express/unlimited needed to download something on my computer for their website)

I’ve had and am still having problems with particular update I’ve come to accept that my computer operates satisfactorily with monthly defrag and a few shareware programs that scan performance.
sometimes i think microsoft needs more maintenance than my poodle

Let’s Think About This.

In reply to Are we beta testers for Microsoft?

Have you ever taken notice on how many processes it takes just to open Microsoft Word, or even Notepad? Hundreds, if not thousands of processes.
With that many processes, something is bound to go wrong, and I reckon that’s what we are here for, to whinge to Microsoft and inform them what their “Q&A” department missed out on. If it wasn’t for Microsoft a majority of us wouldn’t have a job, or we would be bored out of our brains.
Seriously I can’t see Microsoft making money out of spending millions of dollars on their programming teams to keep producing patches for all the their products. Least Microsoft don’t charge for their service packs/patches, just think if every Microsoft Product was perfect, how many programmers would be out of a job?
I realise how much of a pain it is to go through their security bulletins to see which updates is critical or not, I have done it myself, but hey it keeps me from sitting around twilding my thumbs 🙂 I think seriously, it would be grand if Microsoft could figure out for us to have service packs installed without restarting the computer/server.

Kind Regards,
Jim

Please Enlighten Us – What Software IS Perfect?

In reply to Are we beta testers for Microsoft?

If there is ANY software of any complexity that has never needed – and does not continue to need – patches, please let the rest of us know.

Novell issues patches and fixes
FireFox issues patches and fixes (or complete new versions)
Linux has patches and fixes
OS X has patches and fixes, though Apple seems to think you should pay for many of them. At least Microsoft does not charge for its updates and service packs.

In short, get over it or get a new line of work. Nothing complex is ever perfect, not software, not hardware, not life, not love.

It isn’t the amount of patching, it’s the type of patch

In reply to Please Enlighten Us – What Software IS Perfect?

The critical patching from MS is getting old. Produce working software that isn’t a giant security hole.

Beta Testers

In reply to Are we beta testers for Microsoft?

Some of us remember when the entire planet was used to beta test Windows 95 – it still took Microsoft 4 versions to get it close to right – and users paid for the priveledge to be testers; then they went onto a newer version (Windows 98) and started the whole process all over again.

Not a lot has changed and we are still beta testers to this day. Where esle could we have gone though?

You have a wrong view

In reply to Beta Testers

At any point in time, Windows was seen as a better product that its competitors or predecessors. People want a better Windows and so they buy the new one to replace the old. I think that Windows has gotten better and better with each release. WinXP is far better than Win95 which was much, much better than Win3.1 and DOS. You can be snide and snicker about Windows problems, but MS has been getting better and better all along.

Apples & pears …

In reply to You have a wrong view

You make handicapped comparisons when you start comparing Win9x with the WinNT family …

Win9x was never intended for professional use, Windows NT4 was !
FAT and FAT32 wasn’t reliable enough and only NTFS (for Windows that is) allowed for data Security.
[FAT nor FAT32 could never give you that]

Even in the ‘NEW’ “new technology” patches were needed and still are, mostly to plug security holes.
In Windows there ‘s been too much backwards compatability (better said, too much unchecked old parts) and that ‘s where M$ isn’t consistent; in other M$ apps there is very bad to no backward compatibility …

@

Better or simply more ?

In reply to You have a wrong view

Is XP a higher quality product that 95 ?
It’s certainsly bigger, it has more features, does more for you, takes advantage of new tech, but higher quality ?
Has the bug / issue count gone down ?

Adding features instead of fixing core architectural difficulties has been a software industry standby since some one realised it had commercial prospects.

Not an MS specific problem, simply a hard cold fact. New code / hack or fix all existing code, which is cheaper ?

wa wa wa

In reply to Are we beta testers for Microsoft?

All operating systems require updates and that one of the things that keep food on my plate and money in my pocket. Linux requires patches, macintosh requires patches. If you expect microsoft or any other company for that matter to make perfect systems then there would never be a product to sell. Maybe in a utopian society where everything was perfect this wouldn’t be the case, but utopia it is not and these are the facts. If you don’t like it i’m sure there a pen and pad on your desk, get to work.

Harsh! True, but harsh.

In reply to wa wa wa

…and it made me LOL. Yep, it keeps me in business! Thanks for sharing, rshaefer.

Yup, Pen and paper….

In reply to Harsh! True, but harsh.

Who could go beack to that unless you’re 80 and are afraid of the computer…

You should look

In reply to Are we beta testers for Microsoft?

In to MS own company oh I mean campus; their own people in any departments have trouble with updates and patches.
They let most people to reimage their computers if they have too many problems.
They update with out checking any thing out side of their own computers, if they use any programs so dose every one else. So the updates fit every one.
One example is a place I worked at, I will not name the company but MS was taking over the IT section and all the IT people there were going to be let go. Let go means laid off, fired or placed in a lower position.
MS was going to make their own image of the company?s computers and it was the only image that we could use. Well MS did not even look at the image that they used. And MS thought that their image could be used at any company.
You can not expect one company to have the same software, user setup ECT. As another company. This was wrong from the start but MS had the money and kept going. I left after nine months and never thought about it again. MS needs to rethink how it dose things.

Aboohbluahoahoa? Olamosaboohla.

In reply to You should look

What the hell are you babbling about? Your post made no sense whatsoever.
But the best part was your tag that lists you as “IT Department Manager”.
Please…you wouldn’t know an IT department if one fell on you.

Being a beta tester would require M$ actually caring

In reply to Are we beta testers for Microsoft?

I disagree. I think Microsoft is going to slop whatever it wants out when it wants because they think people have no choice but to buy it and pay through the nose for it.

I became absolutely disgusted with M$ with the release of DOS 5.0 I already had PCMag utils and QEMM that did everything DOS 5 did and better. Except for allowing bigger partitions and more Ram it was a complete waste of money. DOS 6.0 was hilarious. Not only did M$ rip off Stacker, they did not even have enough technical know how to finish the stolen work. I made lots of money pulling DOS 6.0 off people’s machines and spent countless hours doing it for free for friends and relitives. Things have gone downhill steadily since.

Microsoft is an audacious bully. They literally threaten to run other companies into bankruptcy if they do not obey Microsoft. Those that defy them are run into bankruptcy. Oracle and Google being the exceptions. `

Microsoft started the landslide of outsourcing that threatens our economic existance today. Microsoft was also the first major company to charge for tech support that I am aware of.

Microsoft has never been concerned with petty conerns like security, customer satisfaction or quality. Shattered is a great example. This vulnerability is really a core design flaw that cannot be patched. It requires a redesing of System messaging. Intstead M$ bandaids known exploit code while the vulnerabilty remains. It took a flurry of customer complaints and news stories about shattered to get even that much action out of them. They had a sample and report of the vulnerability for over a year and did nothing. When they finally did respond they announced it was not a flaw but an intentional design, you know the typical Microsoft reaction to a bug. My favorite is the one where WFWG reports the wrong software version. Not a bug my a$$.

Microsoft is a bane to inovation. They squish it when they can, buy or sue it out of existance if they can. Few if any M$ products came from M$. Visio, SQL Server, NT and on down the line were purchased, stolen or came out of collaborations where M$ eventually knifed it’s partners in the back. NT for example, M$ got what they wanted from IBM then headed down the road with it without giving IBM what M$ promised. DOS was flat out stolen, Doublespace, and many other technologies were flat out ripped off from other companies. Even IE had the little logo up in the exact same place as Netscape did.

So as far as I’m concerned we are not beta testers. Any who use M$ products should just stick a label on thier forhead and get in line. I moved away from M$ several years ago when the alterantes were not so good. Today they are far superior to M$ in every aspect. Why anybody still uses M$ products is beyond me. You can get free or less expensive, more reliable, feature rich software. M4 is a wasteland of gimicky marketing and nothing more. No value offered, not service but plenty of costs.

Even patches aren’t serious matter

In reply to Being a beta tester would require M$ actually caring

‘Small’ list of XP patches with MORE than 1 version:

Critical Updates:
KB 911280 v2
KB 908531 v2

Recommended Updates:
KB 886716 v2
KB 885222 v2
KB 893357 v2
KB 889527 v3
KB 896344 v2
KB 906569 v2
KB 904412 v2
KB 898900 v2
KB 904942 v2
KB 319740 v5
KB 900485 v2
KB 918005 v2
KB 884883 v8
KB 897338 v3

I didn’t check what they were all for, but NOT ALL are just Tools that are updated now and then.

The Malware Search Tool isn’t in this list; that ‘s in the Critical Updates (I didn’t include it here).

NO COMMENT added …

@

My advise

In reply to Are we beta testers for Microsoft?

For me when i buy my first OS i would wait a good half of a year after vista or w/e OS will be releasing. Because i don’t want the hassle of patching and getting massive errors that crashes your computer. Just wait, i know vista looks cool and work cool but hey it’ll be great after the first service pack is out.

No, No…we’re past ‘Beta’

In reply to Are we beta testers for Microsoft?

You are now an official ‘Charlie’ Tester. Congratulations. :^0 -d

odd

In reply to No, No…we’re past ‘Beta’

I would have said yes, and you have been suckered into paying them for beta testing. 😀

since by the time a product can be concidered ready for use they pull it from the market. 😀

Funny isn’t it?

In reply to odd

Sort of like a Charlie Brown Football scienario and M$ is Lucy with the football. and the paying public keeps going back. Yup definatly a ‘Charlie’ Tester.
(even funnier, this string was started, what, at least a year ago. Nothing has changed. Same old story with M$)

[Author]

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