1 Finish Profile

[b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

Locked

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Found by Ed Bott of ZDNet (1):

[b][i]”…Windows was deactivated due to a hardware change. You must activate Windows within 3 days or Windows will stop working. Click to start activation…”[/i][/b]

I just found out that if Vista does not like a change you make to your computer, [u]including merely installing software[/u] :0 , and requires reactivation, that it sometimes [u]will deactivate within only 3 days[/u], not 30 days.

I greatly dislike but might have accepted 30 days. If this nonsense ever happened, I would surely not lose access to [u]my computer[/u]. But, with only 3 days, it is very possible I might. What about 3-day weekends? What about being in a place without Internet access? Without telephone?

[b]This is totally unacceptable[/b]

This is completely and totally unacceptable. This is the kind of nonsense I would expect from a shareware program, not from my operating system provided by the world’s largest software maker, that sells [u]$120 million in software EVERY SINGLE DAY[/u], clearing [u]$49 million in profit EVERY SINGLE DAY[/u]. I am (was) a paying customer. Microsoft does not need to willfully put my computer at risk in order to get more money from the cheaters. It’s just pure greed and arrogance.

I will NEVER upgrade to Vista now. Absolutely, positively, NEVER, not even if Microsoft “fixes” this or calls it a bug. I don’t care. It should never have been possible in the first place. This is the end of the line.

Hasta la Vista, baby!! It’s Windows XP, Linux, and Mac now.

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(1) References

Vista WGA problems confirmed
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=221

Sequence to Vista pulling the pin on the grenade
http://content.zdnet.com/2346-12354_22-56084.html

What does Windows Vista reduced functionality mode look like?
http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=286

Vista reduced functionality mode – Gallery
http://content.zdnet.com/2346-12554_22-56027-3.html

Windows Vista Validation Issues Forum (Microsoft)
http://forums.microsoft.com/Genuine/ShowForum.aspx?ForumID=1004&SiteID=25

edits:
3/6/2007: Added reference

Topic

Right there with you

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I won’t let anyone that I support use Vista. We are experimenting now with Unix/Linux in the hope that we find the right thing for all the competency levels in the family before it is too late.

This is the natural conclusion to a poorly played game. No one is fire proof. Not even MS.

I was looking forward to upgrading to Vista somewhere down the line

In reply to Right there with you

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I’ve been using Windows as my primary operating system since Windows 3.1 in 1992. I’ve used every version of Windows since then (except ME of course 🙂 ). I paid for every single one. This is very disappointing to see Microsoft self-destruct like this. They clearly just do not understand that this is so totally wrong of them. It’s like if I miss a payment on my car and it stops running while I’m crossing the mountains during a snowstorm and says “Use OnStar to Reactivate. We accept VISA, Mastercard…”.

On the other hand, it’s been less than an hour and I am already feeling a sense of liberation while thinking about the possibilities of the good that will come out of this decision…

🙂

Sorry MS, You got it so wrong this time!

In reply to I was looking forward to upgrading to Vista somewhere down the line

The car analogy isn’t quite right…you already paid for your car in full and then you insert a metal CD and the car halts dead with a message on the dash “Are you sure you want to play this kind of music? Your CD player has been shutdown to prevent damage to your ears. Is it recommended you play Easy Listening whilst driving. Please contact your manufacturer to re-enable your CD player.”
Vista is just one step too far in dumming-down (so-called “user-friendliness”). I am totally fed up with all the kid-oriented features they put into it now and the way MS think they have to wrap us all up in cotton-wool. Its just an operating system, damn it! I just want to do my work in the straight-forward way I always could do with previous versions of Windows.
MS, you haven’t given us ANYTHING more useful, you have just tarted up the graphics (badly) and moved all the features around and changed their terminology so I can no longer find them.
What a waste of 5 years of development!

Class Action & Anti-trust

In reply to Sorry MS, You got it so wrong this time!

Actually I decided a long time ago not to give Micro$oft any money for Vi$ta. The type of behavior exhibited by them will continue until it becomes too costly to do so. Basically, once you have paid for the product and it has been verified and activated, micro$oft has no right or authority to question anything you do with your computer. It is a blatent attempt at restraint of trade. I am hopeful that a large number of state attorneys will begin a large, expensive class action against them but I am not holding my breath. Too much money has already changed hands and it would not be a sufficiently popular “political” decision. Oh well, *nix is better, after all.

Gene Y.

lawsuit

In reply to Class Action & Anti-trust

I do believe Microsoft deals with these all the time with just a “slap on the wrist” fine, which I believe they will be more than glad to pay with all the money they make.

How to tell MS ?

In reply to Class Action & Anti-trust

It’s quite obvious that MS won’t respond to the various “slap on the wrists” they’ve had in law. But they will respond to customers not upgrading en masse and they will respond to falling sales numbers.
Don’t get me wrong, I’ve always been an MS fan right from the beginning when they were the little dog and IBM was the big one. I like the software style, presentation, documentation and developer assistance. BUT…they are going off in the wrong direction now. This big brother attitude to piracy and dumming down of the software is wrong and we have to tell them. After all its a lot more ‘our Microsoft’ than theirs because there’s a lot more of us out here using it than them creating it. What happened to a bit of people power?
How should we go about telling them Vista is not what we wanted?

Linux is…

In reply to How to tell MS ?

…the people power you are talking
about.

Linux is Why I Went Back to Windows

In reply to Linux is…

Sorry, the idea of Linux is good, but the execution is bad. Way too many features of M$ compatible software are not available in the Linux world. Trust me, I ran Linux exclusively for 4 years and finally gave up when things such as my Blackberry server would not run on it. Those were the most frustrating 4 years of my life.

Blackberry . . . ?

In reply to Linux is…

You’re kidding — right?

I am serious

In reply to Linux is…

There were tons of frustrations with Linux, but when I replaced my Treo with a Blackberry Pearl, that was the straw that broke the camels back. Blackberry + Blackberry Exchange Server + MS Outlook = get rid of Linux.

-John

That sounds like a bad choice.

In reply to Linux is…

It’s like you’ve decided to replace the seat covers on your car, and because the seat covers were designed for different seats you replace the seats, and because the new seats don’t attach properly to the car you replace the car.

. . . or maybe you bought new headlights without checking to make sure they’d fit the car you have. Now, you find yourself buying a Yugo to replace your Toyota.

I’m not sure how to respond to your post

In reply to Linux is…

What a total load of rubbish!

Blackberry

In reply to Linux is…

As it is we don?t know if you or maker are at fault
To easy to blame Linux for lack of support

johngooch: “don?t know if you or maker are at fault”

In reply to Linux is…

Since Linux is open source, anybody could write the software to connect your Blackberry to a Linux computer. Since nobody has/had, you can equally well blame … everybody, including yourself, who did not choose to write that software. For me, the question comes down to prioritizing control over my computer, and ease of use. The “convenience” of Windows isn’t good enough for me.

edit: sorry GhostBrowser, meant to address that to john gooch. As for breaching your copyright, you used GhostBrowser as your screen name. Please, by all means, try to make that case in a court of law. It would be funny to watch, even as defendant.

I don’t own a black berry

In reply to Linux is…

Please read past posts
Be carefull you may breech my copyright
I have not given you permission to the GhostBrowser Company name

Absolutely Court It Is then

In reply to Linux is…

No just jokeing
Glad you Corected that mistake
Cheers

GhostBrowser: tennis or racquetball?

In reply to Linux is…

I’m crappy at both.

Pistols 10 paces

In reply to Linux is…

The others sound like toooo much work

I prefer fencing, if we duel

In reply to Linux is…

What say ye, rascal?

Thanks for the laugh

In reply to Linux is…

I may not be back here
Its getting supid
Vista is the point
So far off topic in so many areas
linux v windows ?????????????????
IT pros ?
very funny

Absolutely: Blame Doesn’t Matter

In reply to Linux is…

Blame is not the issue here. The issue ( or question ) is what platform gets me the desired result with the least amount of time/effort? I can use the software that is already written and known to work, or try to hack up my own solution on my own time. Since my goal is use my computer to complete certain tasks, and writing a Blackberry server is not one of them, switching to Windows was the easiest way to go.

So, instead of spending hour upon hour searching for an OSS solution, I spent about 2 hours loading up my BBerry server and registering my device…done. I wonder how long it would take to reverse engineer their software, design, develop, test, and deploy my own implementation. And that is just one of many programs that I would need to build on my own in order to stay on Linux.

In the meantime, I am missing dinners, movies, classes, sporting events ( I play soccer 5 days a week ), etc. And when I am old and gray, will I cherish the memories of developing these custom apps as much as the good times I would have had with my friends and loved ones?

To me the answer is clear. This is definitely a personal choice, so stop trying to sell “one size fits all, and its OSS”.

With “View all Posts” you can reply (NT)

In reply to Absolutely: Blame Doesn’t Matter

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as (NT)

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deeply (NT)

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as (NT)

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you (NT)

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want! (NT)

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Neat trick.

In reply to want! (NT)

Where’d you learn to do that?

Just testing out the new “View all Posts” feature

In reply to Neat trick.

New feature: View all posts
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=222970&messageID=2236469

Interesting. I didn’t know that.

In reply to Just testing out the new “View all Posts” feature

I was replying by altering the URL in the address bar of my browser. I’ll have to check into that “view all posts” thing.

. :^0

In reply to Just testing out the new “View all Posts” feature

:0

one more option — open source

In reply to Absolutely: Blame Doesn’t Matter

[url=http://www.funambol.com/][b]Funambol[/b][/url]

It works as a Blackberry server. It also works as a server for a whole bunch of other client mobile devices — which means you’d be able to give your users more options in client hardware.

. . . but, y’know, you seem to like limits.

Gooch: that’s exactly what I was saying.

In reply to Linux is…

Well, not the part about soccer, but about blame. I was trying to make an ironic comment about your strange use of the word “fault”. Oops.

TE2 seems to have connected the dots, or have I misinterpreted?

apotheon – reply to your 1st reply

In reply to Linux is…

Its not a question of options…its a question of simplicity and time savings. It took maybe 2 hours to download, install, and register devices on the Blackberry server. I’ve never had to reboot it, patch it, or do anything else to it since. Oh, and it was free.

So, from my perspective, there is no compelling reason to switch to another product. I could switch to make you happy, but the ROI on that is zilch.

I think you’re having fun changing discussion context.

In reply to apotheon – reply to your 1st reply

You complained about lack of open source options. I provided one. You changed your complaint. Is it your intention to be a moving target, or to actually discuss the issue at hand?

Also . . .
“[i]Oh, and it was free.[/i]”

How is MS Windows free? I’m curious.

“[i]I could switch to make you happy, but the ROI on that is zilch.[/i]”

Switch to make me happy? What are you talking about? I’m just pointing out that your comments about what is and is not possible with open source software are full of crap.

Linux-MS and hardware

In reply to Linux is…

Linux is some of the answer but as for the
blackberry i use a HP Ipac6315 ( I had the 6515 and hated it and sold it after 4 days)I use Moxilla/Thunderbird for it is more secure than outlook,i also have 2 boxes running 2 different versions of Linux and love both of them ,as for the which is betterMS or Linux well if more people got involved with linux and the community .than they(me included) could fix the shortcomes that linux has with devices like the Blackberry and my Ipac,but microsoft has a lot of power/Money and vendors/hardware suppliers such as canon won’t help,canon will not support Linux at all i own 2 of there multifuction device Printer/Scanner and the reason is ink is only $3.30 for each color.so i use them on my windows xp machine and complain to canon often and recommend that everone does the same for any company that does not support linux and mac also
microsoft needs more competition and complaints and hit them where it hurts MONEY….oh Epson supports Linux and now I will quit babbeling now.

Easy, don’t buy the product.

In reply to How to tell MS ?

I upgraded from 2K to XP with reservations. I got the feeling then that MS had shot itself in the foot with all the eye candy, the tangle of processes, and the alarming rate of exploits aimed at the OS. Microsoft’s response to the problem only made things worse for the consumer. When a corporation deviates so much from the values of the society in which it is based, then something is drastically wrong. WGA is boderline criminal. It’s insulting at best.
When Vista came out and I looked at the hardware requirements for running an OS that adds even more eye candy to XP and very little of substance I KNEW that MS had indeed gone over the edge. The answer- boycott their products. Take the plunge and learn a new OS whether it be Linux or OS X. As a system builder I am appalled at how much processor, memory, and graphics power are required to run what otherwise would be a screaming fast gaming system. Look at the marketing as well. MS has released an OS that is buggy as hell. Good luck to those who wanted to stock up on OEM copies of XP to future-proof their system building.
I just bought a Mac Mini with the minimal core duo setup. It’s reliable and it’s fast. It is also faster running on my wireless Windows network than Windows is. This is a huge opportunity for Apple to market rigs that are not crippled by proprietary hardware. I think the strengths of OS X would allow that kind of opening of their market strategy. I even considered a Mac Pro, but it’s too pricey and too memory latent for a low low price of $2600. How about a workstation with core duo, DDR2, and generic memory, hard and optical drives. So many people are so very angry with MS that I think there would be a wholesale mutiny. If you can’t bear to take the plunge, just run Windows along with OS X. I’ll bet that after 6 months a substantial number of Windows users would completely jump ship altogether and delete their NTFS partitions.
MS is NOT going to wake up and say how sorry they are for disrupting so many people’s lives. Anyway they’re too busy dancing from having shot both feet with magnum buckshot otherwise known as Vista.

I have about 6 or 8 versions of Linux

In reply to Easy, don’t buy the product.

I am trying out several versions of Linux to see which one I want to use for this computer .

I have win 2 K Pro and the about 16 patches for it installed the reat are ignored as I do not have IE on this machine any more nor the other thing MS put out called Outlook . .

I am between Linux 2007, PClinuxOS, and Linspire 5.0 as the final contestants for this computer depends on which one I can get what working fastest . . The games are on Code Weavers ( got to have my 4 or 5 games ) to keep from going totally mad . . besides it exersize for my right arm ( got it out of a sling a few weeks ago ) I run them for 1 week and see what I got working and what does not work . . Winner will be posted hahahaha !

How to tell MS?

In reply to How to tell MS ?

Don`t buy it! Don`t use it! I have been using various distros of linux for years because I`ve been screwed by WGA telling me my legit copy of xp is pirated; I now feel pclinuxos is going to be my final distro, and it`s a live distro to boot (pun intended!).

And if you build your own machines

In reply to How to tell MS?

Instead of buying from Dell, HP and the like you can even get out of paying for a Windows Install Disc as they cost more without a OS than they do with the standard one provided by the big makers.

Shaft M$ and The Big Makers at the same time and totally ignore them completely. Yea I like that Idea. 😀

Col

You know I have put the same copy of

In reply to How to tell MS?

I have put the same copy of Win 2 K Pro on about 20 or 30 computers and not one has ever been shut down but then I put a good fire wall
on them so MS can’t jack with them . . Its only been lately I have sold computers with Linux on them as the people heard about “PATCH TUESDAY” and were not wanting any part of it ! !
The Linux I put on their computers did all the stuff they wanted to do .. the Big Open Source OFFICE does most of their work and connecting to web is easy . . So they are happy and do not need much else . .

I wouldnt be too proud of

In reply to How to tell MS?

pirating SW and selling systems to others in this way.
And especially bragging about it in an open forum. you should be ashamed.

give the windows EULA a read

In reply to Class Action & Anti-trust

Microsoft retains ownership and all rights over Windows/Vista including the right to demand it’s papers at every interaction. They retain the right to approve or disapprove of how you use the software also.

I read that as Microsoft retains ownership and control of the product I purchases and put on my own hardware along with what I do with that software.

Even still, you don’t pay for a product, you pay for a license to run that patented mathmatic formula as Micrsoft sees fit.

Further in th EULA you’ll also find Microsoft absolved of any responsability for the software running on your hardware, future support of the hardware or any losses you may incure from using the software.

Lincenses should pretect teh user at the vendor’s expense however Microsoft’s EULA does the opposite in general. You have to buy the extended support contract from them and even then, it’s only to get the crap running on your hardware; they’re still not responsible for loss of data due to the quality of there product.

I’m very happy with my switch away from MS. I spend all day infront of Windows only to get home and find even the initial login at home like putting on confortable slippers. Windows functions (mostly), (my pref OS affixed here) functions in ways intended to actually benifit the user.

What Fine Text Doesn’t Say the Same Thing?

In reply to give the windows EULA a read

I agree with you to the extent that it is crap, however, just about any other piece of software, hardware, or for that matter virtually any other product made in the US is the same way.

That is an old argument that doesn’t hold water.

Name me one piece of software or hardware that does claim responsibility for your data?

Does Linux claim responsibility for your data?

Weak argument…try again.

You keep implying that MS does though

In reply to What Fine Text Doesn’t Say the Same Thing?

You keep saying that somehow you and your data are more legally protected under the MS EULA.

hypocrisy (again)

In reply to What Fine Text Doesn’t Say the Same Thing?

I don’t really have anything to add to what jmgarvin said — I’m just amused that, once again, you’ve contradicted your own reasoning and used hypocritical tactics to try to make dishonest points.

You really need to get a firm grip with both hands Rickk

In reply to What Fine Text Doesn’t Say the Same Thing?

[b]Please just post one instance where any company in the world has had any form of Legal Protection because they run Windows from Data Loss/Theft.[/b]

The honest people here will tell you or anyone who bothers to ask that it’s the Companies Data and their responsibility to keep it Safe. Doesn’t matter what OS they use or even if they just have all their book work in Accounting Ledgers where there is no Computer Company Involved.

What are you trying to imply that somehow the Ledger Makers are responsible when the books get destroyed?

[i]Name me one piece of software or hardware that does claim responsibility for your data?[/i]

Much more importantly Name me one piece of Hardware that Claims that You don’t actually own it after you pay for it. Lets see this is Microsoft were we don’t own what we buy, are unable to get decent support when something does go wrong, and can not look at the source code to fix problems that are engineered into the code. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me but can you name me one other company who is capable of doing the same thing?

It’s your argument that is old full of holes and finds it impossible to [b]Hold Water.[/b]

Did you notice that when Symantec was taken to court over their Software License that judgement applied to everyone but Microsoft? Why is it permissible for one company to be allowed ways out when other companies who do a similar business are tied to different rules?

More to the point in the above Post where was there any inference to anything except Microsoft? Or do you just prefer to read between the lines and insert your own words so you are happy?

But just to make you happy here is a complete copy of a M$ EULA as supplied by M$ it’s about 12 months old now so don’t run crying foul to mommy when you find some different words to the latest ones that are available. This however is the latest available as listed on the M$ site. 😀

[b]Remember it’s not a Book is the M$ EULA.[/b]

Col

[i]END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT FOR MICROSOFT SOFTWARE .

IMPORTANT: READ CAREFULLY – These Microsoft Corporation (“Microsoft”) operating system components, including any “online” or electronic documentation (“OS Components”) are subject to the terms and conditions of the agreement under which you have licensed the applicable Microsoft operating system product described below (each an “End User License Agreement” or “EULA”) and the terms and conditions of this Supplemental EULA. BY INSTALLING, COPYING OR OTHERWISE USING THE OS COMPONENTS, YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THE APPLICABLE OPERATING SYSTEM PRODUCT EULA AND THIS SUPPLEMENTAL EULA. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS, DO NOT INSTALL, COPY OR USE THE OS COMPONENTS.
NOTE: IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A VALIDLY LICENSED COPY OF ANY VERSION OR EDITION OF MICROSOFT WINDOWS 98, WINDOWS MILLENNIUM, WINDOWS 2000, WINDOWS XP OPERATING SYSTEM OR ANY MICROSOFT OPERATING SYSTEM THAT IS A SUCCESSOR TO ANY OF THOSE OPERATING SYSTEMS (each an “OS Product”), YOU ARE NOT AUTHORIZED TO INSTALL, COPY OR OTHERWISE USE THE OS COMPONENTS AND YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS UNDER THIS SUPPLEMENTAL EULA.
Capitalized terms used in this Supplemental EULA and not otherwise defined herein shall have the meanings assigned to them in the applicable OS Product EULA.
General. The OS Components are provided to you by Microsoft to update, supplement, or replace existing functionality of the applicable OS Product. Microsoft grants you a license to use the OS Components under the terms and conditions of the EULA for the applicable OS Product (which are hereby incorporated by reference except as set forth below), the terms and conditions set forth in this Supplemental EULA, and the terms and conditions of any additional end user license agreement that may accompany the individual OS Components (each an “Individual EULA”), provided that you comply with all such terms and conditions. To the extent that there is a conflict among any of these terms and conditions applicable to the OS Components, the following hierarchy shall apply: 1) the terms and conditions of the Individual EULA; 2) the terms and conditions in this Supplemental EULA; and 3) the terms and conditions of the applicable OS Product EULA.
Additional Rights and Limitations.
* You may only install and use one copy of the OS Components. If you have multiple validly licensed copies of the applicable OS Product, you need to reconnect to this site and download an additional copy of the OS Components from each computer on which you are running the applicable OS Product.
* You may also reproduce one additional copy of the OS Components solely for archival purposes or reinstallation of the OS Components on the same computer as the OS Components were previously installed. Microsoft retains all right, title and interest in and to the OS Components. All rights not expressly granted are reserved by Microsoft.
* The OS Components may contain technology that enables applications to be shared between two or more computers, even if an application is installed on only one of the computers. You may use this technology with all Microsoft application products for mufti-party conferences. For non-Microsoft applications, you should consult the accompanying license agreement or contact the licensor to determine whether application sharing is permitted by the licensor.
IF THE APPLICABLE OS PRODUCT WAS LICENSED TO YOU BY MICROSOFT OR ANY OF ITS WHOLLY OWNED SUBSIDIARIES, THE LIMITED WARRANTY (IF ANY) INCLUDED IN THE APPLICABLE OS PRODUCT EULA APPLIES TO THE OS COMPONENTS PROVIDED THE OS COMPONENTS HAVE BEEN LICENSED BY YOU WITHIN THE TERM OF THE LIMITED WARRANTY IN THE APPLICABLE OS PRODUCT EULA. HOWEVER, THIS SUPPLEMENTAL EULA DOES NOT EXTEND THE TIME PERIOD FOR WHICH THE LIMITED WARRANTY IS PROVIDED.
IF THE APPLICABLE OS PRODUCT WAS LICENSED TO YOU BY AN ENTITY OTHER THAN MICROSOFT OR ANY OF ITS WHOLLY OWNED SUBSIDIARIES, MICROSOFT DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES WITH RESPECT TO THE OS COMPONENTS AS FOLLOWS:
DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTIES. TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, MICROSOFT AND ITS SUPPLIERS PROVIDE TO YOU THE OS COMPONENTS, AND ANY (IF ANY) SUPPORT SERVICES RELATED TO THE OS COMPONENTS (“SUPPORT SERVICES”) AS IS AND WITH ALL FAULTS; AND MICROSOFT AND ITS SUPPLIERS HEREBY DISCLAIM WITH RESPECT TO THE OS COMPONENTS AND SUPPORT SERVICES ALL WARRANTIES AND CONDITIONS, WHETHER EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, ANY (IF ANY) WARRANTIES, DUTIES OR CONDITIONS OF OR RELATED TO: MERCHANTABLE, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, LACK OF VIRUSES, ACCURACY OR COMPLETENESS OF RESPONSES, RESULTS, WORKMANLIKE EFFORT AND LACK OF NEGLIGENCE. ALSO THERE IS NO WARRANTY, DUTY OR CONDITION OF TITLE, QUIET ENJOYMENT, QUIET POSSESSION, CORRESPONDENCE TO DESCRIPTION OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. THE ENTIRE RISK ARISING OUT OF USE OR PERFORMANCE OF THE OS COMPONENTS AND ANY SUPPORT SERVICES REMAINS WITH YOU.
EXCLUSION OF INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL AND CERTAIN OTHER DAMAGES. TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, IN NO EVENT SHALL MICROSOFT OR ITS SUPPLIERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, INDIRECT, PUNITIVE OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES WHATSOEVER (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR: LOSS OF PROFITS, LOSS OF CONFIDENTIAL OR OTHER INFORMATION, BUSINESS INTERRUPTION, PERSONAL INJURY, LOSS OF PRIVACY, FAILURE TO MEET ANY DUTY (INCLUDING OF GOOD FAITH OR OF REASONABLE CARE), NEGLIGENCE, AND ANY OTHER PECUNIARY OR OTHER LOSS WHATSOEVER) ARISING OUT OF OR IN ANY WAY RELATED TO THE USE OF OR INABILITY TO USE THE OS COMPONENTS OR THE SUPPORT SERVICES, OR THE PROVISION OF OR FAILURE TO PROVIDE SUPPORT SERVICES, OR OTHERWISE UNDER OR IN CONNECTION WITH ANY PROVISION OF THIS SUPPLEMENTAL EULA, EVEN IF MICROSOFT OR ANY SUPPLIER HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.
LIMITATION OF LIABILITY AND REMEDIES. NOTWITHSTANDING ANY DAMAGES THAT YOU MIGHT INCUR FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER (INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, ALL DAMAGES REFERENCED ABOVE AND ALL DIRECT OR GENERAL DAMAGES), THE ENTIRE LIABILITY OF MICROSOFT AND ANY OF ITS SUPPLIERS UNDER ANY PROVISION OF THIS SUPPLEMENTAL EULA AND YOUR EXCLUSIVE REMEDY FOR ALL OF THE FOREGOING SHALL BE LIMITED TO ACTUAL DAMAGES INCURRED BY YOU BASED ON REASONABLE RELIANCE UP TO THE GREATER OF THE AMOUNT ACTUALLY PAID BY YOU FOR THE OS COMPONENTS OR U.S.$5.00. THE FOREGOING LIMITATIONS, EXCLUSIONS AND DISCLAIMERS SHALL APPLY TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, EVEN IF ANY REMEDY FAILS ITS ESSENTIAL PURPOSE.[/i]

hold up now.. settle down rick.. I’m not looking for a fight

In reply to What Fine Text Doesn’t Say the Same Thing?

no one is invalidating your preference of OS by mentioning the EULA. I’m not looking for a Windows vs Linux debate because it’s just futile; those who like linux really love it, those who like Windows.. well, they back there horse just as strongly.

I was just pointing out some of the finer points of the license. I can still remember coming to the full realization after years of simply checking “yes” and clicking “ok” to get on with my day. When I took the time to read it the real bit that caught me was paying for a product which I run on my owned hardware then being told I didn’t have any ownership over that software or how I chose to use it. What can I say, it’s the paradyme shift from thinking you own what you buy and realizing you own the peice of paper the license is on; nothing more. (Luckily, this being long after I discovered the world of Libre Software)

It was simply comisseration between two people who have chosen an OS provider outside of Redmond. I was going to continue on to comisserate about how Vista’s license has been written even more hostile to the end user than previous versions but the comment was getting long.

It doesn’t invalidate Windows as an OS or your choice for using it. You can keep using it and be happy with how it works for you regardless of my feelings about the license it’s locked under.

I should clarify one point though in closing; my pointing out that MS takes no legal or moral responsability for your data locked into it’s software running on your hardware.

This is in reference to the usual “well, we have to know someone stands behind the software we buy” which translates to “we have to have a head on a platter to sue if we lose data because of your product”.

This is a false claim used usually to justify buying a closed source solution from a single vendor over a technically superior solution from a user community. It fails in at least two accounts.

(ie. “there’s no support for Linux, we’re sticking with Windows on the workstations”)

– it wasn’t supposed to go down in the first place. If your shiny new marketed solution went down then you already have the mess and lost data to clean up; sueing a service provider is reactive and of little help instead of proactive.

– if you think buying a single vendor’s closed solution is better because you’ll have someone to blame if it goes badly then your missing the “we’re not responsible” clause in the EULA.

EULA Is Not A Legal Document

In reply to give the windows EULA a read

Fortunately, EULA’s are nothing more than vendor wish lists. You see, contracts have to signed by both parties, and both parties must receive something from the deal. In addition, they have no way to verify that you agreed to anything. Clicking on the “ok” button is not a signature, neither is checking a “I agree” box.

Clickwrap license agreements have been upheld so far…

In reply to EULA Is Not A Legal Document

.
Clickwrap license agreements have been upheld so far in court cases.

[i]”…Few cases have considered the validity of clickwrap licenses. However, in the cases that have challenged their validity, the terms of the contract have ultimately been upheld…”[/i] (1)(2)

——————————

(1) Clickwrap
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clickwrap

(2) Decision defining requirements for a valid clickwrap license
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specht_v._Netscape_Communications_Corp.

TE2: annoyingly, you’re Absolutely Right

In reply to EULA Is Not A Legal Document

I don’t expect to get my $ back from Microsoft, but they won’t get any more of it from me, either.

Legal Contract

In reply to EULA Is Not A Legal Document

As far as I am aware, at least in the UK, one cannot agree to contract a one has not seen… When one purchases vacuum sealed software that states one is agreeing to the contract by opening the packaging… it cannot happen. The contract may say to hand over all one’s goods to the vendor… if the contract was enforceable, then the goods would have to be handed over… but this is ridulous… it cannot happen and it cannot be legally enforced.

EDITED: Added references….

“Clickwrap license agreements have been upheld so far in court cases. “…Few cases have considered the validity of clickwrap licenses. However, in the cases that have challenged their validity, the terms of the contract have ultimately been upheld…” (1)(2) —————————— (1) Clickwrap http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clickwrap (2) Decision defining requirements for a valid clickwrap license http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specht_v._Netscape_Communications_Corp. FN1″

TechExec2, I have to point out that wikipedia is not an authoratitive source at all, and ANYONE can edit that information to make it say whatever they desire it to say. However, the cases you refer to are U.S based… if we turn our eye to the UK, in Beta Computers (Europe) Ltd v Adobe Systems (Europe) Ltd 1996, it was held that the opening of shrink-wrap goods cannot be an agreement to conditions not yet seen, “The pursuers’ conditions were referred to too late, and after the contract had been concluded.FN2.” Lord Penrose further states that there “…are no mechanisms which predetermine access to the written material.FN3” while “the effective delegation to a third party of the definition of what might prove to be material terms of the contract between the supplier and the purchaser appears to me to be perfectly consistent with the analysis that there is no consensus and no concluded contract until the supplier tenders and the purchaser accepts the conditions derived from the owner.FN4”

He further states “The agreement to proceed on terms to be so stipulated would not be complete until there was acceptance of the third party’s stipulations. In my opinion such an approach gives real and substantial business effect to the characteristics of this type of transaction.FN5”

FN1 TechExec2, “Clickwrap license agreements have been upheld so far…” 05/08/07

FN2 Beta Computers (Europe) Ltd v Adobe Systems (Europe) Ltd 1996 S.L.T. 604 [1996] C.L.C. 821 [1997-98] Info. T.L.R. 73 [1996] F.S.R. 367 [1998] Masons C.L.R. Rep. 104 1995 WL 1081393 at 373

FN3 Ibid at 376

FN4 Ibid at 380

FN5 Ibid at 381

Wikipedia

In reply to Legal Contract

.
[b][i]”…I have to point out that wikipedia is not an authoratitive source at all, and ANYONE can edit that information to make it say whatever they desire it to say…”[/i][/b]

I know. I cite Wikipedia because it is very quick and convenient. I wouldn’t cite Wikipedia for a serious document without confirming with another source. But, for an online forum like TR, I think it’s fine so long as the information appears to be correct and reasonable. A number of people have gone out of their way to complain to me about citing from Wikipedia. But, nobody has ever shown me a single thing I’ve cited from Wikipedia that is false.

WIki

In reply to Wikipedia

The issue is not to do with whether the information is false or inaccurate or not… the issue is do with whether it is an authoratitive source or not. It is not. Thus any information cited from there is irrelevant.

That’s patently absurd!

In reply to WIki

What kind of conformist, authoritarian claptrap is that?! You’re more worried about whether it’s “authoritative” than whether it’s “accurate”! Holy crap!

Yeah, let’s just do whatever government tells us, because it’s more “authoritative” than Wikipedia!

Jeebus cries, man, no wonder the US, UK, France, Canada, and most of the rest of the industrialized world seems to have its head crammed up its fourth point of contact.

[b]edit:[/b] I still can’t believe you said that. Please tell me you were kidding. [b]Please.[/b] I have [b]never[/b] seen anything [b]so stupid[/b] on TR before this. Even BALTHOR’s AI-generated surrealistic nonsense is more valuable than that “insight” you provided.

I can hardly contain my disbelief. I feel like accosting random strangers on the street to tell them about that bizarre statement of yours and exclaim “Have you ever heard anything so stupid?!”

[b]another edit:[/b] I’m having a really bad time coming up with a way to explain how mind-bogglingly stupid that is. I just randomly exclaim about the stupidity of that statement. I really wish I could articulate how I feel about that sort of asinine stupidity. Oh . . . my . . . God.

Primary Source Data

In reply to That’s patently absurd!

Apotheon,

Its got nothing to do with whether its accurate or inaccurate – I do not dispute accuracy, but if you are wanting to quote something, then use the primary source data, not secondary sources like Wikipedia!

I quoted from the case!

What is insanely stupid is that you cannot accept primary source data! But, I understand why “I was at one time the datacenter technician for the Wikimedia Foundation.”

You have to support Wiki! Probably part of your contract.

ANd for your information, even though you graduated (which then you should understand what I wrote) not to mention being a freelance writer… so dont come with your comments as you ought to know better, and fully understand what I have wrote, unless your biography is inaccurate?

Further, my words were “The issue is not to do with whether the information is false or inaccurate or not.” I do not see where I sasy that I am “…more worried about whether it’s “authoritative” than whether it’s “accurate”! Holy crap!”

Please ensure you read what I have written before spouting off like that… Of course the data has to be accurate! It carries more weight from an authoratitive source, and being as previously mentioned a two times graduate, and freelance writer, you should appreciate that!

I think you have a problem… Perhaps RIkk was right on the point he made about banding together…and decrying ecverything not linux and open source.

I have a hard time believing you actually graduated at all…let alone from two colleges and that you are a freelance writer… maybe for Noddy Comics where authoratitive sources are not required.

re: your argumentum ad hominem fallacies, backpedaling, et cetera

In reply to Primary Source Data

“[i]What is insanely stupid is that you cannot accept primary source data![/i]”

Who said I cannot accept primary sources? I sure as hell can. In fact, I tend to double check any secondary source when there’s any reasonable likelihood of error. That doesn’t change the fact that [b]the only reason a primary source is worth a damn is because it is, by definition, accurate as relates to citing the primary source[/b]. In other words, [b]it’s all about accuracy[/b], and the [b]only[/b] reason anyone should care about whether or not a source is “authoritative” is that, being “authoritative”, [b]one expects it to be more prone to accuracy[/b]. Saying “Its [sic] got nothing to do with whether its accurate or inaccurate” is missing the whole damned point!

“[i]You have to support Wiki! Probably part of your contract.[/i]”

I don’t currently work there — haven’t for almost two years now — and wasn’t under any kind of contract when I did other than the standard “don’t break our crap and we’ll pay you” agreement. Any nondisclosure agreements were largely unspoken, entirely informal, and legally unenforceable — though my personal integrity enforces such quite effectively. You can keep your cast aspersions to yourself now, and maybe try to actually stick to the point of the conversation at hand.

“[i]Further, my words were ‘The issue is not to do with whether the information is false or inaccurate or not.’ I do not see where I sasy that I am ‘…more worried about whether it’s `authoritative` than whether it’s `accurate`!'[/i]”

Let me refresh your ailing memory. You said:
“[i]The issue is not to do with whether the information is false or inaccurate or not… the issue is do with whether it is an authoratitive source or not.[/i]”

Clearly, you’re more concerned with the “authoritative” nature of the source than its accuracy — else you’d believe, know, and admit that [b]the issue is accuracy[/b]. As I already said, the only value of an “authoritative” source is the likelihood of its accuracy and truthfulness — unless you subscribe to a purely authoritarian philosophy wherein the very fact of a claim of authority with the ability to enforce it is its own justification. Those of us who know better call that the utterly deplorable “might makes right” approach to determining right and wrong.

“[i]Perhaps RIkk was right on the point he made about banding together…and decrying ecverything not linux and open source.[/i]”

How do you figure? The only posts of yours I remember seeing on that subject actually disagreed substantially with rickk. Maybe you’re just flailing about, grasping at any straw you can find, to defend your absurdly weak position on the idea that the importance of “authoritative” sources is greater than that of accuracy.

By the way, if you doubt I write for money, you should probably have a look at some of my articles here at TechRepublic.

mea culpa; Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore

In reply to re: your argumentum ad hominem fallacies, backpedaling, et cetera

Apotheon, I think far too often, people, especially me, get caught up in swapping railing for railing, and this does not resolve a situation, it only serves to exacerbate it. Anyone can err, but the fool persists in it, let me not persist in it, I do not wish to swap railing for railing… mea culpa.

When I wrote “The issue is not to do with whether the information is false or inaccurate or not… the issue is do with whether it is an authoratitive source or not.” I was simplying meaning that I was seeking an authoratitive source, and not meaning that the information was accurate or inaccurate, as I had not validated it. I just discounted it simply as it originated from wikipedia and for no other reason, hence my request for authoratitive sources. I do not cite wikipedia, but that does not mean that the data is inaccurate.

I would like to point out at this juncture, that the initial response you gave was wholly uncalled for, and not needed.

There was no ‘back pedalling’ as it was put… I merely suggested that Rikk may have been right in a certain area… however the response to this far outweighed the stimulus… but nevertheless, again, it was subjective uncalled for remark on my part.

There was no call on my part to bring in the comment of a contract… it was wholly uncalled for…and again subjective, I apologise for that, most sincerely.

I was keeping to conversation, I was just wanting an authoratitive source for the information… The reason is simply, I am interested in these things, and wikipedia is insufficient for me to use if I wish to cite those cases.

And finally, I never said you didnt write for money… so to say “By the way, if you doubt I write for money, you should probably have a look at some of my articles here at TechRepublic.” is not entirely accurate. I was wrong to make personal attacks on you, and you were correct, it was ad hominem, and not needed.

If you would kindly give some links, I would gladly like to read your work.

dictum meum pactum

Let’s kiss and make up.

In reply to mea culpa; Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore

Well,maybe not kiss, exactly.

In retrospect, I can see how poor choice of phrasing on your part might have “tricked” you into defending a position you didn’t strictly speaking believe. It happens to me from time to time as well, though I make a constant and concerted effort to learn to avoid that mistake. I should have been alert to that possibility, and clarified before I called you on the position your words supported.

“[i]I was simplying meaning that I was seeking an authoratitive source[/i]”

Understood, though not soon enough. As I said, I should have clarified your intent before attacking your statement. I still consider the notion that “authority” trumps accuracy to be, well, stupid — but I can see now that this wasn’t your initial intent, and you only ended up defending it based on a miscommunication. I apologize for being part of the problem.

“[i]I just discounted it simply as it originated from wikipedia and for no other reason, hence my request for authoratitive sources.[/i]”

Rather than discounting information because it’s from Wikipedia, I’d like to suggest that you simply ask for corroboration — as you should if it came from any other encyclopedia (and thus secondary or tertiary source). In practical effect, it’s much the same thing, but in terms of the way one thinks about the matter and the way one presents the request for other sources, it is not only more likely to yield useful results (rather than debate over the value of an encyclopedia) but also more precise and accurate in treatment of the matter of finding correct data.

“[i]If you would kindly give some links, I would gladly like to read your work.[/i]”

You can find articles of mine at TR by using the article search with my legal name, or by checking at [url=http://sob.apotheon.org/?page_id=7][b]this list[/b][/url] that I maintain off-site. It’s maintained by hand, so it may not be 100% up-to-date at all times — but it’s probably easier to navigate than the search results. At least, I think so.

Once you find one of my articles, though, you can also find (most of?) the rest by following the link to “More from” that author at the top of the article.

Blame…

In reply to Let’s kiss and make up.

Too often we fall into the ‘blame culture’… let us escape that idea.

You point out you should of clarified… I should of written clearer… and simply said what I meant.

All is well that ends well 🙂

I shall read them 🙂

This is a public forum, not a dissertation…

In reply to WIki

.
[b][i]”…The issue is not to do with whether the information is false or inaccurate or not… the issue is do with whether it is an authoratitive source or not. It is not. Thus any information cited from there is irrelevant…”[/i][/b]

This is a public forum, not a dissertation or an academic journal. If you require everyone to formally cite sources using primary source data behind everything they say in regular conversation as one would in a dissertation, you’re going to have a really hard time talking with people. Ever read a newspaper or magazine? Ever mentioned it to someone else?

Now that I think of it, most of those who have complained to me about my citing from Wikipedia were students!

Students learn a lot in the university. And, they often find that there is more to learn after they move into the real world.

Information cited from Wikipedia is not irrelevant.

P.S. There are a lot of people here who spout nonsense and bullsh*t without any basis for it, and certainly without citing any sources, authoritative or otherwise. I cannot wait to read what you have to say about them!

This is a public forum, not a dissertation…

In reply to This is a public forum, not a dissertation…

You are correct, it is a public forum, not a dissertation or an academic journal.

And yes, wiki does have many useful topics, and much good data.

Yes, I know there are many… and I will put my ahnd up – I too have spouted rubbish too.

And as it happens I was tech support a number of years… I come from the real world.

I guess I got over-zealous, I apologise, I didnt mean you any offence at all.

No problem…

In reply to This is a public forum, not a dissertation…

.
Being a public forum, and not a dissertation, TR is also much more forgiving! :^0

No problem.

Licences

In reply to give the windows EULA a read

You write “Licenses (sic) should pretect the (sic)user at the vendor’s expense however Microsoft’s EULA does the opposite in general.”

I maybe wrong, but it is a licence, not an insurance against damage to data? If ANY vendor includes in there licence, a term where that vendor will protect the user at the vendor’s expense, then there will be a ‘floodgate’ open as many people would try to seek compensation from the vendor.

I am open to correction on this issue.

Your absolutely Right

In reply to Sorry MS, You got it so wrong this time!

And to top it all off, they intend to sell the Vista a piece at a time.
What is being passed off now as the Ultimate is only the most basic of Vistas, then the time comes when you want the add-ons, clock,notepad,etc they will charge you for it.
Then they have the nerve to Validate you and then remain connected to you so as to shut you down if they decide your a thief.
This is only the beginning of the Vista Nightmare, and anybody foolish enough to fall for it and Dumb enough to call it Great, “DESERVES WHAT He/She Get’s”
I’m definitely with you on this one.
MS should be investigated if the Justice Dept had any Guts,and Sued an Mass,for invasion of privacy and client manipulation.
Regards
Aaron

clock,notepad,etc

In reply to Your absolutely Right

Again – last time I checked (2 minutes ago) these items were still sitting in the correct location on my Vista Ultimate Machine. Where are you getting this false information from Aaron?

I also do not see these as ‘add-ons’, they are and have been part of the MS OS since the early days.

So are you trying yo tell me that they will suddenly dissapear…or start asking for money when I use them???

I think not.

Perhaps it is you that should be investigated for providing false information?

Unless MS can use port 80 and 443 over two NAT connections to keep tabs on me I’m safe I guess. The Firewalls and staefull inspection will do the trick I hope!

Hot in here today – Baking Again…

For info source

In reply to clock,notepad,etc

Check the reports of George OU.
I have a Beta copy [Vista RC1]and also have the peripherals.
I am also a beta tester for Microsoft. and I DO read all that is around me.
But that’s not what is being touted now.
Before question my resources and integrity, check your facts.
Read and read again, some might actually get through.
By the way, it’s not just YOUR system that counts, it’s the millions of other people who are going to get it down the line.
So before you accuse me of falsehoods, check your facts and stop relying on your Own System. Take a look around, you’re not the only one in the world.
Didn’t get screwed over yet?
Lucky You, so far
Aaron

100% Waffle

In reply to For info source

light on any facts!!!!!!!

I Have a RETAIL Copy – BETA Means Nothing!

My Beta Car had no brakes – WHAT…NO CARS HAVE BREAKS!!!

However…I too have Beta tested for MS until I thought – why should I do their work for them (Stopped at Exchange 2003)

Still get all the Betas through the 1000000 DVD’s a year Technet+ my company subscribes too however.

You Say:
“So before you accuse me of falsehoods, check your facts and stop relying on your Own System. Take a look around, you’re not the only one in the world.”

Don’t I know it – have many users keep happy around the globe. Did I say my ‘system’ is rather large and spans across the UK and the EU?

Listen, I’m not out to get at you personally – I just feel your facts may be a little off…

Later AB!

Please expand

In reply to For info source

Aaron,
It sounds like you do know what you’re talking about and I would liket o believe you. Would you mind expanding a little on these claims? Could you site a real and current example?

CLOCK + NOTEPAD

In reply to For info source

ARE not going to suddenly dissapear – FACT.

CLOCK + NOTEPAD

In reply to For info source

may not disappear, but they may have ‘upgraded add-ons (for a small fee).—-lol

I think Aaron was just trying to make a point, I do not think that he meant actually clock and notepad (but I may be wrong entirely).

Can only comment on what I see

In reply to For info source

& it is not the first time the Clock & Notepad examples have been used by AB.

Your Absolutely Right

In reply to For info source

Thank You;
I was indeed just trying to make a point.
At last count, I think there are now something like 6 or 8 versions of Vista.
At what point does this get ridiculous?
Where does it stop and when can we buy and entire program without the Microsoft Big Brother attitude, arrogance and runaround?
At First Opportunity I shall come back and list them all.
This is not a good way to do Business, in my opinion.
As it is now, if I crash and have to re-install my XP, I now have to contact Microsoft “Every Time” to get a new number.
When I asked, I was told I would have to this from now on, i.e. forever or as long as I am running XPPro.
Isn’t this just a bit much? And that’s with XPPro.
Now Vista will have a Kill switch.Imagine, you pay outrageous amounts of money for a program that can shut down at Microsoft’s whim and discretion. What ever happened to Privacy and integrity [Ours].
I think Microsoft has lost on both counts.
Now they seek to corner the market on just about everything and carefully couch the hypocrisy. That is the real point.
It’s also why, although I don’t mind Beta Testing the Vista.
I will NEVER purchase one and will stick with My XPPro for as long as I can.
With the nonsense with Validation and Activation, I may even go as far as to get a bootleg older version of XP, just to getaway from MicroBig-Brother.
Not my style but I am feeling a little annoyed at the presumptive arrogant attitude that Microsoft has taken.
All this without regard or consideration for the client, although they claim the contrary.
I will NEVER buy Vista.
I’ll learn Linux first.
Regards
Aaron

Aaron, You’re Losing It?

In reply to For info source

You said, “At last count, I think there are now something like 6 or 8 versions of Vista.
At what point does this get ridiculous?”

And just how many versions of Linux are there?

And, I think you are being overly deceptive here. There really are only 4 versions for 99% of PC users: Home Basic, Home Premium, Business, and Ultimate.

To throw in Vista Starter and Vista Enterprise is misleading on your part in my opinion.

You said, “As it is now, if I crash and have to re-install my XP, I now have to contact Microsoft “Every Time” to get a new number.”

Why is this?

As a matter of fact, I just reinstalled my OS (Win XP Pro) last week. I added a new hard drive and swapped out the sound card as well as re-partitioned this a bit better and I didn’t have to call MS.

You said, “that can shut down at Microsoft’s whim and discretion.”

Incorrect. Not at MS’s whim and discretion. Only if they suspect it is pirated software. That isn’t a whim.

You said, “I may even go as far as to get a bootleg older version of XP.”

Says a lot about you! You’re becoming the exact reason why MS has to do what they are doing.

I have to admit, I deeply respect those in the open source community that don’t agree with MS’s pricing or practices so they use Linux instead of using bootleg copies.

You or anyone else who uses illegal copies of Windows (or any software for that matter)are immoral and breaking the law, period.

“That isn’t a whim.”

In reply to Aaron, You’re Losing It?

[i]You said, “As it is now, if I crash and have to re-install my XP, I now have to contact Microsoft “Every Time” to get a new number.”

Why is this?

As a matter of fact, I just reinstalled my OS (Win XP Pro) last week. I added a new hard drive and swapped out the sound card as well as re-partitioned this a bit better and I didn’t have to call MS.

You said, “that can shut down at Microsoft’s whim and discretion.”

Incorrect. Not at MS’s whim and discretion. Only if they suspect it is pirated software. That isn’t a whim.[/i]

But it isn’t proof positive, either. Who should have the right to deprive you of use of your property — without [b]proof positive[/b]? In your own words, they shut you down if they merely “[b]suspect[/b] it is pirated software.”

They have a legitimate interest in making a profit, but they are pursuing that legitimate interest by illegitimate means. If you dislike the word “whim”, please offer a word that you think is more accurate. I think you will have a difficult time finding one that is accurate, but that does not imply arbitrary, unrestrained, unaccountable power.

Rickk in answer to your question about how many

In reply to For info source

There are up to possibly 4 different versions per maker and that covers the Basic Free versions in 32 & 64 Bit versions and the Paid For Version that you can buy complete with 99% on most peoples software needs.

Now look at Vista there are 7 versions available in the 32 Bit Configuration another 7 Versions available in the 64 Bit Configuration all of which cost more than the most advance Brand of Linux on the Market and then M$ is currently about to introduce a Vista Server as soon as they can get them to work again in several different packages that will be a total of over 20 Products that M$ is selling just in the OS market.

And don’t be a total idiot an claim that most users can get away with Vista Home Basic it just lacks way too much of the necessary parts of an OS to be usable for anyone but a gamer who has no need to backup their data. MS accepts that there are only 2 versions of Vista that will be useful to a Business Environment and as such are only offering one of there with Software Assurance and 2 with a Volume License ability in the 32 Bit Range and 1 in the 64 Bit Range.

Currently if you want to get real there are 14 different versions of Vista Available and comparing these 14 different versions to Linux is like saying well General Motors makes 26 Models of Cars today but how many others can you buy new on the market from all the different makers.

Linux/Unix/BSD are made by different makers who may chose to follow the set standard or ignore it completely so you can not reasonably add up all the different makes available from all the different makers of Unix/BSD & Linux and then claim that they are far more different versions of these OS’s available and the fact that they all come from different makers has no impact on the argument.

Sorry my friend but it is you who have lost the plot here with your ridiculous argument that is fostered by M$ in a constant attempt to discredit Linux as a real Possible different OS to their offerings which are by the way substandard that is the M$ Offerings not the Linux Offerings.

I have had a Volume License of Vista since it was available and I can not use it to run any of my [b]Mission Critical Business Applications[/b] and while I accept that I have not actually purchased Vista from M$ but only bought a License that gives me the right to actually use it if I can to do my business on I can not accept M$ remotely shutting down my OS’s because they have now decided that they don’t want me to use their products any longer without any notification.

They have already stacked the EULA in such a way that they are not responsible for their shoddy coding so any losses that I suffer because their OS is at fault they are protected from but now they can also withdraw my ability to use their OS & Software without warning or notice and not be in a position to have to recompense me for losses that are brought about by their actions or reimburse me for the money that I spent on the Licenses that I have purchased.

If you want a very good reason why so many people are looking elsewhere for an OS just look at M$ Business Practises they are the ones who are [b]Pissing People Off[/b] and until you can accept this or more importantly the Top Management at M$ accept this they are bound to continue to loose market share and have their Share Price reflect their actions.

Col

Outstanding post, Col…

In reply to For info source

.
That was an outstanding post, Col.

I am actually sad, and angry, and determined all at the same time. WGA capricious DE-activation is simply the last straw.

Col, No!

In reply to For info source

First off, listen to what I’m saying and stop being an egotistic, know it all, prick.

Go to Best Buy, Circuit City, Fry’s, etc. Oh wait, you’re not from the US. Insert your stores.

99% of all home consumers will see 4 basic flavors of Vista for sale.

1) Vista Home Basic
2) Vista Home Premium
3) Vista Business
4) Vista Ultimate

Now, you can parse my words anyway you want, but I in no way shape or form proposed most people needing only Vista Home Basic.

I would actually recommend to 99% of home consumers that they buy Vista Home Premium.

Nice rant, but show me where I said that.

Second, 32 bit vs 64 bit is of minor concern. Most home consumers will only see, only need, or can only run the 32 bit version for the time being.

Third, if you are talking about businesses (I was mentioning home users above), having multiple different flavors (7 or so) shouldn’t be confusing and if it is, you don’t qualify as a member of IT. Period.

Now, even if you see confusion with 14 different versions, how the hell do you even start to pick a Linux distro. C’mon, what are there nowadays? Hundreds? Thousands?

You’re making a case that Windows users will be confused about 14 possible choices when Linux confuses people merely on where to get it, how to get it, how to install it, and which one of the distros to use.

Threre is no need for Language like yours

In reply to For info source

I don’t care What your point of view is, nor do I care about your so-called facts.
I do however find your expletives disturbing.
In case your not aware of it, you’re dealing with a great class of people here.
There is no need to use vulgar language and name calling as you have done.
You have your points, I have Mine and Col has his, that’s the way it’s supposed to be at Tech Republic.
So for you to refer to Col as you did only show’s what a low life self-serving scumbag attitude you must have.
Man you must be a blast to work with.
Col is a man of Class & Distinction and has excellent points of view.For you to disagree is one thing, to call him what you did was inexcusable. There are many fine and excellent IT Techs here and almost ALL have class enough not to get into low-life name calling.
I for one will never acknowledge you again, or at least until you clean up your act.
This is Tech Republic,not some Cheap Yahoo Forum.
Get it together Man or Move on.
Or better yet, when that’s the way you must express yourself?
S.T.F.Up.
As for me,you don’t exist any longer.
Good Luck Growing Up
Aaron

Well Rickk I don’t know what you are on but the fact still remains

In reply to For info source

That there are 7 X 32 Bit Versions of Vista & 7 X 64 Bit Versions of Vista. I actually don’t care what the average Home User will see if they are not shown a complete Product Range how can they be expected to chose the right version to suit their needs? If you then add in the OEM and other different M$ Products involved there are actually considerably more but if you just look at the basic available range there are 14 in both 32 & 64 Bit that are available for the [b]Average Customer[/b] [i]many of who will be buying the OEM Version as the only option available to them on their new computer as well[/b] to buy and then subsets in OEM Retail Volume License from that point on which actually adds to the number available.

Then just to add a bit of confusion to things there will be [b]Ultimate Versions available in the Following Editions Home, Small Business, Medium to Large Business[/b] and it is only in the Medium to Large Business where you can buy VLP and/or SA.

As I’m a reseller and a Microsoft Certified Partner sorry but I don’t walk into shops to get some idea of what’s available I read my M$ supplied Product Guide then the M$ daily price Lists and sell what is required by the customer from that not some made up artificial not known abstract view of things that I’m only allowed to see part of the entire product line up.

As for the funny aspect to your posting about how I decided on which version of Linux to use that’s easy I looked at what was available and chose accordingly from the Maker that I wanted to buy from. I would imagine that the same thing was done the last time that you bought a car as there are a multitude of makers out there and even more models I’m surprised that you could actually work out which car you needed and are not still looking for what you think that you need. OH Wait a Minute you don’t look at them all do you you just pick one that you like the looks of so I presume that you chose your current car by [b]Picking that Yellow one over there.[/b] 😀

Doesn’t matter if it works as long as it looks good after all that’s all that is really important isn’t it?

Sorry but when I sell a computer to a customer they get a Professional Service and sold what they actually need not what they think that they want just as M$ wants it’s resellers to do. So if anything I most likely know the available Vista Range much better than you do and currently I’m still at the stage of not supporting it for any of my clients because as yet it’s not reliable enough to be placed into service till at the absolute earliest sometime next year after the bugs and third Party Software is available so that it actually allows my customers to work and not sit and look at a desktop with Aero running and thinking what a massive improvement that Vista is even though their [b]Mission Critical Software[/b] doesn’t as yet run on it. 😀 :^0

Perhaps you would like to explain why the Accounting Package that is available for Office 2007 doesn’t work with Vista but works as well as any other M$ Product does on XP?

But as you are willing to accept that members of the Public be kept in the dark about the available M$ Windows Products and you find that this is both necessary & Acceptable I would be the one along with M$ who would be questioning your Professionalism as it clearly seems to be lacking in some areas.

Col

Get Over It Aaron Baker

In reply to For info source

You say no need for name calling then you start calling me names. Nice.

Oh, and if you don’t like expletives, then why do you abbreviate yours?

C’mon on man, grow up.

What’s the difference between “hell” and H E double hockey sticks?

Geez.

You’re just pissed off that finally someone is calling you and your goons out on this.

As for me, yes, I’m tired of TR being dominated by the likes of you, Apotheon and others who do nothing but spread FUD and give no topic respect unless it is a Linux loving, open source, anti-Microsoft piece.

HAL 9000 Get a Grip Man

In reply to For info source

1) First off, you seem to be arguing that there are too many versions of Windows and it is confusing the user.

Once again, how many versions of Linux are there? How is that not confusing to the user?

Let’s see, Linux has hundreds and Windows has whatever let’s say 14. You’re arguing out of both sides of your mouth.

2) If 14 or more versions of Windows is too confusing to you or your customers or causes problems to you as a reseller, get out of the business. That simple.

3) “Perhaps you would like to explain why the Accounting Package that is available for Office 2007 doesn’t work with Vista but works as well as any other M$ Product does on XP?”

Perhaps you could learn how to read Hal 9000. The accounting package DOES work with Vista:

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/products/HA102058021033.aspx

Any other questions? Or was that just FUD?

Perhaps you should have said “you” were having problems with “your” version instead of making a blanket statement and therefore misleading those people like Aaron Baker who worship the ground you walk on and take your word for truth.

Let me repeat myself. Accounting 2007 does work with Vista. Period.

4) I don’t recommend “that members of the Public be kept in the dark about the available M$ Windows Products”.

I and don’t “find that this is both necessary & Acceptable” either.

Those are your words and apparently, again, you need to go back to grammar or elementary school and take a reading class because you read in between way too many lines.

Let me make my point crystal clear for you.

The following 4 versions of Windows Vista will satisfy 99% of home users:

1) Vista Home Basic
2) Vista Home Premium
3) Vista Business
4) Vista Ultimate

As far as businesses go, no I don’t feel sorry for them that they have to choice between 14 or so versions.

After all, it is a business decision worth hundreds of dollars per PC and if they don’t have the intellectual capacity to either A) make that decision or B) find someone to advise them, well then, they have bigger problems than miss choosing.

BTW, HAL, get a spell checker man. And punctuation would be nice too. Surely your Linux box has a spell checker.

Ignore one, respond to the other . . .

In reply to For info source

I’m going to just completely pass over your post that consists of nothing but ad hominem arguments.

As for the one directed at HAL . . .

“[i]Once again, how many versions of Linux are there? How is that not confusing to the user?[/i]”
There’s a difference between offering:

1. different software management systems, different maintaining corporations and communities, and different default installation configurations

2. several progressively more crippled versions of exactly the same (lack of) software management system, exactly the same maintaining corporation, and exactly the same default installation configuration

One of these provides useful choice. The other just provides excuses to charge more money for less-crippled software.

“[i]The following 4 versions of Windows Vista will satisfy 99% of home users[/i]”
It’s easy to be satisfied when one is treated like a mushroom, and thus one doesn’t know that there are other options out there. Go figure.

The rest was just trolling, insults, and ad hominem fallacy masquerading as rebuttal, so I’ve ignored it.

Well someone is reading between the lines but it’s not me

In reply to For info source

[i]1) First off, you seem to be arguing that there are too many versions of Windows and it is confusing the user.[/i]

Where on earth do you get this idea from all I’m saying is that there are 14 distinct versions and then OEM and Volume License copies thrown into the mix. You are the one who saying that 4 versions seem hard to chose from not me. Personally i don’t have a problem with the available range of Vista and despite your protestations have never said anything of the sort.

[i]2) If 14 or more versions of Windows is too confusing to you or your customers or causes problems to you as a reseller, get out of the business. That simple.[/i]

Again you are making unfounded assumptions with out any knowledge of either me or my business let alone the length of time that I have been involved in working with what is now known as IT. As for getting out of the business I’ve tried but have a constant stream of people asking me to do work for them and as such instead of being in semi retirement which is what I wanted 15 years ago I now have 10 full time techs working for me and we will be expanding soon if things don’t calm down. The semi retirement lasted a whole 12 hours when I walked out of the last job where I was working for a Boss.

[i]3) “Perhaps you would like to explain why the Accounting Package that is available for Office 2007 doesn’t work with Vista but works as well as any other M$ Product does on XP?”[/i]

Actually the Accounting Package doesn’t work with Vista as it relies on SQL 2005 which [b]Is Not Vista Compatible[/b] though within the last 24 hours M$ has officially sent out a notification to all it’s Certified Partners that they have just made available a new version of this product. I’ve yet to actually load this up but have it downloaded and at over 210 MEG’s it’s hardly small either I might add.

[i]Perhaps you should have said “you” were having problems with “your” version instead of making a blanket statement and therefore misleading those people like Aaron Baker who worship the ground you walk on and take your word for truth.

Let me repeat myself. Accounting 2007 does work with Vista. Period.[/i]

OK lets put this in prospective I am unable to load the Accounting Package onto a Volume License version of Vista and Office 2007 which I have had since November 2006. As Yet I have not had the time available to try the recently released download from M$ that has been made available within the last 24 hours but I have demonstrated the Accounting Package with Office 2007 loaded onto XP Pro with out any problems. Happy?

[i]4) I don’t recommend “that members of the Public be kept in the dark about the available M$ Windows Products”.

I and don’t “find that this is both necessary & Acceptable” either.[/i]

Shock Horror we agree on something. What more can I say here?

[i]Those are your words and apparently, again, you need to go back to grammar or elementary school and take a reading class because you read in between way too many lines.

Let me make my point crystal clear for you.

The following 4 versions of Windows Vista will satisfy 99% of home users:

1) Vista Home Basic
2) Vista Home Premium
3) Vista Business
4) Vista Ultimate[/i]

While I don’t quite agree with your figure of 99% I think that it will be quite high but that many will be limited by what is available when they buy a new computer as it will come preloaded with one form of this OS and while the shops may have more versions available these people will not have the choice that they should have and as such will be forced to work within the limits of the supplied OS rather than do what they actually want to do. Get the picture?

[i]As far as businesses go, no I don’t feel sorry for them that they have to choice between 14 or so versions.

After all, it is a business decision worth hundreds of dollars per PC and if they don’t have the intellectual capacity to either A) make that decision or B) find someone to advise them, well then, they have bigger problems than miss choosing.[/i]

Well I don’t quite agree here as I’ve seen several places that are similar to the Wall Marts of the world claim that they are [b]M$ Certified Small Business Specialists[/b] when all that they are interested in is moving stock and charging a premium for the supposed benefit of dealing with a M$ Recognised Small Business Specialist. Like one company who sold 25 computers loaded with XP Home to a small business without any software and insisted that Note Pad was a Word Processor. They even sold 2 monitors for several computers knowing that they where required to be used at the same time without the means of actually attaching the second monitor in any way.

When Small Business rely on [b]M$ Certified Small Business Specialists[/b] who do things like this they hurt every one of us with their total lack of professionalism. As well as the fact that they sold XP Home they also setup the Network and had no way of sending a file from one workstation to another 10 feet away except e-mailing it to the recipient. The entire LAN here consisted of 1 ADSL Modem connected to 2 X 16 Port Hubs which then feed the entire LAN with no AV Software supplied or any other software except XP Home. [b]A really Professional Organisation this one was and they recommended this over the initial requested software then over charged to such an extent that it was unbelievable.[/b] For the prices that they where charging for a basic workstation without software I could have supplied Vista Ultimate or Enterprise on hardware that worked it without a problem. But the company who in [b]Good Faith[/b] bought what was recommended to them got sold something at about 5 times it’s actual value with useless software in the form of an OS and no ability to network the computers that they bought. Then just to add insult to injury the fitters strung up the cable and then said [b]We’ll Be Back[/b] and 10 weeks latter when I walked in they had not even rung to explain why they had not returned. But the moment that they where told that they had been dismissed and the job taken over by someone else they showed up within 30 minutes to finish off what they had started. Then complained when the owners wouldn’t let them in the doors.

They also owned the ISP which was supplying the service to this company and where making a killing in Over Usage Fees because of the inability to transfer files internally.

[i]BTW, HAL, get a spell checker man. And punctuation would be nice too. Surely your Linux box has a spell checker.[/i]

You are really reaching here by claiming that this was done on some form of Nix Box as it wasn’t it’s done on a Volume License version of XP Pro with Orifice 2003 so that’s what you get when you use second rate software to attempt to do some real work. I use Linux as a Dual Boot Option on my personal NB that gets carried to every job and generally run on Linux to protect the OS from infection when logging into a foreign Network and I do use Linux & BSD as Server Applications here as I find M$ Licensing way too expensive for my tastes.

When I buy some Server Software I expect it to work as a Server and I don’t expect to have to go out and buy more Licenses to allow me to connect different Desktops to it that actually come to more than the cost of the Server OS particularly when I’m only attempting to connect 15 machines to it. Why is it acceptable for 2 X 5 Pack CAL’s that cost more than the Server OS that they get added to?

MS Word never worked properly and you want to imply that the output of a Second Rate Substandard Piece of Software like Orifice is somehow a Nix Product. 😀 :^0

You really need to [b]Get a Grip[/b] of something other than what you are currently gripping. :^0

Incidentally if you load up the [b]Partner Demo Readiness Toolkit[/b] supplied by M$ as a teaching tool to it’s Certified Partners the Accounting Plug in doesn’t work on that either but then again you wouldn’t expect M$ to supply a properly working product to their resellers so that they can come to terms with the new software that is being supplied by M$ would you?

Load it up and see for yourself M$ supply these to every Partner and I do believe any one related to an organisation that is Certified by M$ to resell their products.

Just in case you have any difficultly working out how to use this teaching tool supplied by M$ the password is actually [b]password[/b] for all the accounts that are loaded it’s very hard to find on the enclosed literature so I thought that I would save you the trouble of attempting to find it.

Also don’t use this on something that you want to do any work on as it’s a teaching tool and not a working OS so you need to be careful where you install it and do not believe the documentation that comes with it as it is claimed that you can use it as a Workstation when really it means a Teaching Station not a Workstation.

Col

RIKK: The estimated 99% is incorrect…

In reply to Well someone is reading between the lines but it’s not me

In support of Col on the estimated percentage… this is what Gartner Group states: “The dominant OS should continue to be the five-year-old Windows XP, reaching 77.1 percent. It’s predicted that Vista will only overtake XP in 2009, reaching a figure of 55.4 percent.FN1” Somewhat less than 99%, Rikk, do you not think?

The conclusion then, if one part is a made up percentage, it casts aspersions on the rest of your comments, Rikk.

FN1 Macintosh News Network, “Gartner: Mac growth to remain stagnant”, Wednesday, 01/24/2007, 6:15pm, EST, ACCESSED: Saturday, 19th May 2007, URL: http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/01/24/gartner.no.mac.growth/

Rickk You Sir are an Idiot, sent PM

In reply to Your absolutely Right

IF you had any Brains, real class or real life experience you would address your question/opinions differently.
You’re not into looking for an discussion here, your just looking for a fight and will say anything to Keep the fires going.
I worship No one,however I do have Respect “Know whatthe word Means??” and a lot of friends here at Tech Republic and DO NOT appreciate the methods by which you choose to express yourself to them.
You Sir are nothing more then an adolescent flaming child in a “Man’s?” body and you have a lot to learn about life.
If you feel that way about we at Tech Republic then why do you keep coming Back? I’m sure Yahoo and /or Google or some other garbage strewn page would welcome your kind of arrogant diatribe. However It’s not Welcome Here.
I certainly DO NOT appreciate being attacked behind my back.
You have a lot of maturing to do before you can ever reach the levels of Apotheon,Hall 9000, TEch Exec, and a host of other truly professional IT Techs.
Not only are they good at their job, they also know how to express their thoughts without having to resort to the kind of infantile and childish garbage you’ve been strewing. I may not worship these people but I do respect them and they are my friends and you may rest assured I WILL defend them from people like you every time.
That’s not worship. It’s loyalty.
Rickk Grow up or Shut up.
In future, If you have anything to say to me, do so in the appropriate manner.
Aaron A Baker
Also sent PM

Kettle Calling Whom Black?

In reply to Rickk You Sir are an Idiot, sent PM

Aaron, nice try at making an intelligent post (emailed to me as well) but you are just showing your complete lack of control under frustration.

Oh boy, where do I start?

You have no idea how much or how little brains, class or real life experience I have. You know me by nothing other than these discussion boards. NT

Unless one agrees with you and your group of TR thugs, they are wrong.

I see things differently. Apparently, I have gotten under your skin to the point that you have decided to email me personally.

If you are so right and I’m so wrong, why do you have such a hard time in ignoring me?

I’m not looking for a fight or flames. I’m looking to correct the record.

I’m sick and tired of TR discussions being dominated by a small group of people such as Apotheon, Jacqui, Jmgarvin, yourself, and a few others, all of whom tolerate absolutely zero difference of opinion.

At times, it seems on TR when you and your thugs dominate the posts that nothing is credible or tolerable unless it is open source, Linux or non-mainstream anything.

You’re all anti-MS, anti-DST, anti-closed source, anti-anything that most of the world openly accepts for better or worse.

You remind me of the teenagers I once knew in high school. You know the type. The ones that never were popular. The ones that did crazy things just to get attention.

I could care less how you feel about how I treat your “friends” on TR. I’m assuming you have never met them in person, yet your “friends” only because of an Internet connection and a keyboard. Not exactly my definition of a friends.

I’ve been through more things in life than you could ever possibly imagine. Put your hate aside for a second and ask. I can guarantee you with certainty that I have been through more than 99% of the population.

I keep coming back because I enjoy TR quite a bit yet I refuse to allow it to become a cesspool of Linux/open source garbage.

IT is IT, the tool one uses is immaterial.

I’m interested in IT as a whole, not some websites few and minority members acting as though they speak for everyone. The articles are useful, the staff is great and the downloads, etc are wonderful.

Too bad TR isn’t more inclusive. It’s been hijacked.

I never attacked you behind your back. You made statements, I countered. Sorry I didn’t address you directly, apparently that is another rule of yours and your thugs that I didn’t get the memo on.

Funny, unless I spew Linux loyalty to all and go down on a sinking ship with you I’ll never apparently reach the level of “professionalism” that you and your thugs have.

Even funnier, as unprofessional as I supposedly am, I’ve been in this business quite a while, have doubled my income doing it in the last 6 years, have never lost a job doing it AND use punctuation and a spell checker here 🙂

BTW, I’m not a consultant either. I live in the corporate world where I have many more rules to play by than most of your freelancing consultant friends.

Back to your “friends”. Just how well do you really know them? Ever met them in person? Ever seen a job review from them? Talked to their former clients? Used their services?

Or, are you just friends because you happen to agree with them on here and find it convenient to defend one another? That’s pretty shallow.

By comparison, ask my military buddies why I’m their “friend”.

Misguided loyalty isn’t loyalty at all.

Last question: So, if I do have something to say to you, what exactly is the appropriate manner? But before you answer, who the hell made you the moderator here?

I have always found it funny in life that those who preach openness and honesty are usually the most close minded, liars.

a bit of response

In reply to Kettle Calling Whom Black?

“[i]You have no idea how much or how little brains, class or real life experience I have. You know me by nothing other than these discussion boards.[/i]”
You’re right. He should have added something like “from what I’ve seen of you at TR.” It’s true that, on TR at least, you have very little class. I don’t think you have no brains, but I think you abuse or neglect what you do have, if your activities here are any indication. I have no idea what life experience you have, but I do know that either you’re lying a lot of the time, or you have very little experience in a wide range of areas on which you choose to hold forth at great length.

There you go. That’s a much more reasonable approach to telling you almost the same thing.

“[i]If you are so right and I’m so wrong, why do you have such a hard time in ignoring me?[/i]”
Regardless of whether he’s right or wrong, I’m pretty sure I know why he has a hard time ignoring you: trolling. You troll a lot. You flame people, both to their virtual faces and when they aren’t even involved in the current discussion. You make comments designed to provoke. You come into a thread where people are discussing techniques for easing a transition between OSes, already having made the decision to migrate, and start basically telling them they’re all idiots for that decision (though not in so many words, exactly) — as if that’s going to convince anyone of anything. Trolling seems to be the biggest reason one might find you difficult to ignore.

Also . . . you make an easy target, especially when you demand sources and provide none of your own, as you did on the subject of Daylight Saving Time not long ago.

“[i]I’m not looking for a fight or flames. I’m looking to correct the record.[/i]”
You’re doing the absolute worst job I have ever seen of trying to “correct the record” without “a fight or flames”. Wow. Perhaps, then, you shouldn’t “correct the record” with opinions peddled as facts, straw men, flames, and similarly unproductive “corrections”.

“[i]I’m sick and tired of TR discussions being dominated by a small group of people such as Apotheon, Jacqui, Jmgarvin, yourself, and a few others, all of whom tolerate absolutely zero difference of opinion.[/i]”
I tend to guess you think those of us listed “tolerate absolutely zero difference of opinion” only because, in comparison to our differences of opinion (which do come up from time to time, and even get a little heated at times), your completely absurd rants and flames draw our attention for as long as you’re involved in a thread.

If you really think we tolerate no differences of opinion, you should do a little more checking. Palmetto, for instance, has actually changed an opinion or two in that group. I’ve managed to sway a couple of opinions in that group on certain matters from previous positions. Jaqui and I actually disagree quite amicably on the subject of JavaScript — actually, Jaqui and I disagree on a lot of things, but we don’t [b]flame each other[/b] over them the way you do. I’ve even recommended using MS Windows on a couple of occasions, for which I’m sure I’d be cast out of this conspiracy and hung as a traitor if what you said was true.

“[i]You’re all anti-MS, anti-DST, anti-closed source, anti-anything that most of the world openly accepts for better or worse.[/i]”
I’m pretty sure one or two of the accused haven’t offered any opinion on the DST debate. Anyway, you’re actually dead wrong about the “most of the world” bit in reference to DST at least. The US is actually in a minority on that subject.

“[i]You remind me of the teenagers I once knew in high school. You know the type. The ones that never were popular. The ones that did crazy things just to get attention.[/i]”
Excellent. You’ve devolved into insults and personal attacks already. That didn’t take long. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but we’re not in high school any longer. I’m sure that, whether or not any of the people you’ve named were the sort of teenager you describe, they’ve all A) grown as people and B) given up caring whether someone calls them “unpopular”.

“[i]I’ve been through more things in life than you could ever possibly imagine. Put your hate aside for a second and ask. I can guarantee you with certainty that I have been through more than 99% of the population.[/i]”
I don’t know about Aaron, but I’m pretty sure I can imagine at least as much as you’ve been through. I’m also not particularly interested in your penis comparison game. Yes, you’re a worldly, experienced Manly Man. Okay, stipulated. Can we move on to actually relevant discussion now?

“[i]I keep coming back because I enjoy TR quite a bit yet I refuse to allow it to become a cesspool[/i]”
. . . without your help.

“[i]IT is IT, the tool one uses is immaterial.[/i]”
Ridiculous. Let’s try an experiment to test that hypothesis:

You use a TRS-80 for the next two months — and no other computers but TRS-80s. Then tell me tools don’t matter.

“[i]The articles are useful, the staff is great and the downloads, etc are wonderful.[/i]”
Thanks. I’ve put some real effort into some of those.

“[i]Too bad TR isn’t more inclusive. It’s been hijacked.[/i]”
Umm . . . no. If it had been hijacked, you would have been jettisoned a long time ago for your antisocial behavior, I’m sure.

“[i]Funny, unless I spew Linux loyalty to all and go down on a sinking ship with you I’ll never apparently reach the level of “professionalism” that you and your thugs have.[/i]”
Hardly. Nobody would have called you “unprofessional” for simply failing to use Linux. It’s because of the two problems of A) failing to use Linux much but still talking about it as if you had any idea what you were discussing and B) acting like a little kid stirring up anthills.

I’m a little curious about that “sinking ship” comment, though. Industry statistics indicate quite the opposite. What metric are you using to measure things that indicates open source software is “a sinking ship”?

I guess this phenomenon, growing for roughly twice the lifespan of usable MS Windows releases, must just be a passing fad.

“[i]AND use punctuation and a spell checker here[/i]”
So what? I don’t use spell checkers at all.

“[i]BTW, I’m not a consultant either. I live in the corporate world where I have many more rules to play by than most of your freelancing consultant friends.[/i]”
What does that have to do with anything? I’ve been on both sides of that fence, and I still don’t know what that has to do with the price of tea in China.

“[i]By comparison, ask my military buddies why I’m their ‘friend’.[/i]”
You should just stop right there. Every once in a while, someone brings up the “better than you, ’cause military” crap, and the discussion goes right down the drain (as if it hasn’t already, the moment you started talking, but still). I don’t want to hear your uncorroborated war stories.

“[i]So, if I do have something to say to you, what exactly is the appropriate manner?[/i]”
My guess would be to avoid using childish insults.

“[i]I have always found it funny in life that those who preach openness and honesty are usually the most close minded, liars.[/i]”
I can play that game too. Watch:

“I have always found it funny how people make this kind of passive-aggressive comment as an implied insult, when in reality it usually applies more accurately to the person saying it than to the person (s)he targets.”

Take it easy rickk…

In reply to Kettle Calling Whom Black?

There is no discussion with delusional people who through committee become the arbiters of what is right and wrong, good or bad, or through their own prism and colored glasses decide that only their experiences have validity.

That is why I no longer respond to their closed mindedness. It doesn’t matter to them if another viewpoint has validity and they make sure that they get their childish insults and demeaning statements in trying to insult anyone who does not stroke their egos.

Time to let them have this group and their excrement masticating ways to themselves. See you around.

Might as well get used to it

In reply to Kettle Calling Whom Black?

The tide is turning and the times they are
a-changing. So get used to it and suck it
up.

Seems you wouldn’t mind “thugs” so much
seeing as how you just looooove Microsoft.
(oh, that’s right….you don’t care)

No abusive corporation that antagonizes
their customers (or “end users” as Microsoft
calls them) can last forever.

Internet Friendship

In reply to Kettle Calling Whom Black?

Rikk, you write “I could care less how you feel about how I treat your “friends” on TR. I’m assuming you have never met them in person, yet your “friends” only because of an Internet connection and a keyboard. Not exactly my definition of a friends.”

What then is your definition of friendship?

EDIT….

For the record… I support neither Microsoft nor Linux… they are both good at what they do… it depends what I want to achieve… however, you are so ingrained into Microsoft that you refuse to try other flavours… as for me, I do not want to try other flavours… I do not like Vista, and will stay with XP… but it does not mean I like it… it means simply it is what I am used to, so I will stay with it.

To call anyone a thug as you have, if they are not one, you have just committed an act of defamation, and can be liable for a law suit… it is advisable to not to make such statements.

It seems to me you are spoiling for a fight… I wish to remind you, you are no longer in the military, we are not at war in TR.

If you are of a, shall we say a ‘higher’ mind (and I use that very broadly so as NOT to offend anyone) then why do you not show then, that you are capable of ‘turning the other cheek’ and walking away? Or would that make you less of a man to your ‘…military buddies why I’m their “friend”.’
I hasten to notice that you put friends in inverted commas, thus indicating not real friendship, but something less than that… just an observation.

Further, I am also of the opinion that where there is much verbosity, it has been my experience that it is there to cover up some personal shortcoming or some inadequacy complex.

Just some thoughts…

Re: Rickk’s flame war

In reply to Rickk You Sir are an Idiot, sent PM

Well said sir. I, personally, don’t think he has the testicles to go private.

Just ignore him

In reply to Rickk You Sir are an Idiot, sent PM

Arron, Rickk is a kid with a big mouth, an agenda, and no manners. Just look at his signature logo. He’s a Linux hater looking for excuses to express that. He is like a lot of rather cowardly individuals who hide behind the anonymity of the net to safely flame those they disagree with. As you and others have shown, his opinions are worthless.Just ignore him until you hear a very large thud — that will be life taking Rickk down hard.

Aaron A Baker, dont argue with dummies

In reply to Rickk You Sir are an Idiot, sent PM

these guys like rickk and teckmail live under microsucks dresses, how can anybody in thier right mind defend outfits like that, what a dreary life they must lead, nothing they say makes absolutly any sense, Mr. Baker, don’t waste yout time.

Dear Mr FredOne

In reply to Aaron A Baker, dont argue with dummies

Thank you Sir,for the comment.
Appreciated and agreeded upon wholeheartedly.
Warmest Regards
Aaron

Consider yourself Disregarded

In reply to Your absolutely Right

Rickk, You’ve done nothing but fight,rant,rave and have been generally rude aggressive, arrogant and abusive to some very fine people. People with far more experience than you have. I personally have been in the business for twenty Five Years.
I use Microsoft XPPro.I’m also a Microsoft Beta tester for Vista. Get your facts straight.
I’ll have nothing more to say to you.
So rant all you will, have a blast.
Consider yourself gone from my list.
There will be no acknowledgements or replies to you from me.
Aaron A Baker

Good

In reply to Consider yourself Disregarded

Sort of what I was hoping for anyways.

isn’t there a rule..

In reply to Good

that a person cannot cut & paste repetive posts for replies. Either that or his system is stuck on stupid.

Let start a question of why we think rickk is stuped

In reply to Good

What moore can I say
Gee I gess I’ll be told off for my spelling

Rickk Consider Yourself Disregarded

In reply to Your absolutely Right

Rickk, You’ve done nothing but fight,rant,rave and have been generally rude aggressive, arrogant and abusive to some very fine people. People with far more experience than you have. I personally have been in the business for twenty Five Years.
I use Microsoft XPPro.I’m also a Microsoft Beta tester for Vista. Get your facts straight.
I’ll have nothing more to say to you.
So rant all you will, have a blast.
Consider yourself gone from my list.
There will be no acknowledgements or replies to you from me.
Aaron A Baker

Rickk Consider Yourself Disregarded

In reply to Your absolutely Right

Rickk, You’ve done nothing but fight,rant,rave and have been generally rude aggressive, arrogant and abusive to some very fine people. People with far more experience than you have. I personally have been in the business for twenty Five Years.
I use Microsoft XPPro.I’m also a Microsoft Beta tester for Vista. Get your facts straight.
I’ll have nothing more to say to you.
So rant all you will, have a blast.
Consider yourself gone from my list.
There will be no acknowledgements or replies to you from me.
Aaron A Baker

dashboards

In reply to Sorry MS, You got it so wrong this time!

“moved all the features around and changed their terminology so I can no longer find them”

My chief complaint for several recent versions of Windows. Nothing nex except locations and names -new ways of doing the same things.

MS needs to adopt dashboards for their OS. I could choose to run the latest splashiest, or I could choose the W2K dashboard, the XP dashboard, the advanced user dashboard, the 5 year old dashboard…
I understand the need to dumb down the product and computers become more mainstream, but not at the cost of crippling people who know how to use the product and have a history of doing things a certain way. Change for change’s sake is NOT IMPROVEMENT!

I so agree

In reply to dashboards

YES! Changing the UI around and new fancy graphics is not improvement and cannot justify 25 billion dollars in development costs!
As an IT professional, this dumming-down has been worrying me for a few years. Of course I understand the need for user-friendliness so that my neighbour and parents can join the IT revolution BUT we in the support industry are starting to struggle because we look stupid when we can’t work out what on earth MS are talking about when they pop up a message that says something like “Would you like Windows to mess up all your networking settings because we think you might not want to expose a couple of file shares?”.
Can’t we just have a single switch somewhere in the registry that says “User knows he/she is doing so leave them alone and show all available options”. Windows Professional should be just that. Take out all the games, stupid wizards and options like “Hide file extensions (recommended)” !

You Can

In reply to I so agree

“Take out all the games, stupid wizards and options like “Hide file extensions (recommended)” ! ”

Have you never done a custom install? Ghosted PC’s? Used the unattended installs?

There are so many tools out there to do exactly what you are talking about, some made by Microsoft itself.

Just because MS doesn’t hold your hand and do it for you, doesn’t mean what you are asking for here doesn’t already exist.

Exactly Rickk…

In reply to You Can

however some here (this forum) don’t actually understand what they ara talking about. They just see ‘one thing’ and run with it…

Must Totally Agree

In reply to Sorry MS, You got it so wrong this time!

This post by Alex Bailey reflects my sentiments exactly.

? Moving everything around: Dumb!
? Back-up that saves only data: Dumber than dirt!
? Change for the sake of change makes me want to choke someone at Microsoft.

Producers of operating systems and software used as widely as Windows and Office have a duty to grow their systems in an EVOLUTIONARY manner, not a REVOlutionary way. Making as many changes as they did in the appearance, location of tools, and the functionality was effectively the same as adding speed-bumps on an inter-state highway. I recognize that change is inevitable, necessary, and sometimes desirable, but this Vista revolution has set me way, way back.

At this point in the development of the home computer industry (and maybe in the business place, too), by now they should have made ways to more effortlessly and seamlessly migrate from one version of an OS to the next. And the same goes for when you replace a system; the transition should be much more simple than it presently is.

I feel the only way Microsoft can vindicate themselves from this Vista mess would be if Windows Home Server matures into more than a safe back-up tool. As it is, I feel that most U.S. homes still have just one PC. That has begun to change, of course. I’d like to see Windows Home Server also function as an application server; maybe it’s being developed that way and I just didn’t know it. Hopefully the software vendors would adopt pricing policies that might serve to encourage those with two or more PCs in their home to adopt this concept of having a home server that backs-up every thing and allows all the workstations in the home to run software off the server.

Just MHO.

Just One Version Of The OS

In reply to Must Totally Agree

This will ruin their pricing model, but I think MS should take one thing from the *nix’s – the single OS model. That is right. There is no reason to make more than one version of the OS. Now, and OS can be optimizable for certain roles, but the is just a configuration issue.

While I do not run Linux or Sun OS any longer, one of the things I liked was having just one version of the OS function as a client and any number of server roles. All versions ran the same, scaled the same, and could run the same software. If I needed a backup DNS/mail/other server, Just installed the app on my desktop and synced its config with the primary server. The server application didn’t complain that it only ran on the Server edition, or Advanced edition, or the Datacenter edition of the OS.

So, let scale down from 12 different versions and just have a single, configurable version that can function in different capacities.

Oh, and the “I only support x CPU’s” model is just malarkey. Why do you need a separate OS version to support X+1 CPU’s? Give me a break!

I do not know about that . .

In reply to Just One Version Of The OS

I got Solaris 10 from Sun and the Solare or something like that did not install I had to install the x86 something . . and it did not like some thing as it locked up in installation
I left all the stuff plugged in thats plugged in now and Linux 2007 went to town and loadded all the stuff and fired up signed in NO problem . . I think Solaris is one of the OS ‘s made for separate CPU’s since it had two separate installs . . I have a Intel P4 3.2 gigahertz hyper threading junk and and 2 gig ram dual bank something ( to early to think yet ) not enought coffee . .

Roles, not CPU’s

In reply to I do not know about that . .

I was discussing software architecture mostly. While you can optimize a Linux kernel to handle the server role, there is nothing stopping you from running a server application ( Oracle, email, etc ) on a non-optimized kernel. Meanwhile, in Windows world, many Windows server applications will check your OS version and refuse to install unless your are running the server version.

That means you need to spend more money ( to be legal ) to run your Web server than you need to spend if the application did not have an OS-level restriction.

John…

In reply to I do not know about that . .

I feel that is not just MS to blame for requiring different versions for different software. They are a business trying to make a huge profit so it is to be expected that they would have a product that meets the needs of this many users and costs this much.

Then they have a version that meets the needs of this many users for this much. Then they have the version that does everything and only this many users need all of that so they charge this much.

It is like that in any industry. Is there not different levels of TVs for different price ranges. Different cars depending on what you need. Different size packages of toilet paper depending on how much you need. That is not MS, that is how business is done.

And then there are the software developers who make the software that checks the OS version. Take Acronis for example. Great product for imaging disks. Home version costs about $30 but is limited in functionality. The workstation version has more functionality for around $60. It will not install on a server though, so you need the server version for those. $1100 for a product that the only difference is that it lets you install on a server OS. But that is just business.

I am not defending MS, just making a point that they did not invent the pricing structure on products. Now granted Vista is confusing to some users due to the numerous versions. But if everything were simple and easy to the point that anyone could do anything, who would pay us?

Naughty Monkey, re: license scaling

In reply to I do not know about that . .

You’re talking about increasing the cost for selling the customer more stuff. Microsoft doesn’t charge more for more stuff: it just charges more for allowing you to use the same stuff more.

When you pay more money for Exchange, you don’t get more Exchange. You just get to use it more. To take a couple of examples from your list of comparisons, that’s like charging more for:

1. the exact same TV, but allowing more people to sit in front of it

2. the exact same amount of toilet paper, but allowing more people to use some of it

Can you imagine licensing toilet paper like that?

Joe: “Hey, Bob, I’m going to use your bathroom.”

Bob: “Just don’t use any of my toilet paper. I’ve already used up all my client access licenses letting Sandy, Jerry, and Gloria use some of my toilet paper.”

Joe: “Oh, that’s okay, I always bring my travel kit with some ToiletPaperCE in it.”

ToiletPaperCE…

In reply to I do not know about that . .

Fantastic post Apotheon 🙂

Good is coming!

In reply to I was looking forward to upgrading to Vista somewhere down the line

I’ll still stay on XP/Linux. thanks to MS’s new logic of protection. It’ll be hard to tell them what’s so wrong with their latest decision. the only way is through sales figures. if sales drop, they’ll instantly know there is something massively wrong.

so spread the word!!! lol

How right you are!

In reply to Good is coming!

.
How right you are! If Vista sales figures suffer greatly, even the super arrogant Microsoft will react and correct. By then, the cat would be out of the bag. People would then KNOW it is possible to move to Linux.

Completely killing this aggressive WGA is the only thing that will stop me from leaving Windows on my primary computers. I don’t think the global reaction to this aggressive WGA will be enough to force Microsoft to kill it however.

I’m afraid I disagree that would do any good.

In reply to How right you are!

Microsoft’s reaction to loss of market share, or to discovering a market niche adjacent to areas it dominates where it does not, yet, dominate, has never been to improve its quality of service to the customer. Microsoft’s reaction has always been, and will probably always be, to try to kill the competition without improving itself at all.

I don’t think Microsoft will ever kill off WGA just because paying customers stop paying. It’ll just react by trying to eliminate alternative options. Microsoft would rather force you to buy what it produces than entice you.

I cannot disagree with that

In reply to I’m afraid I disagree that would do any good.

.
I cannot disagree with that. My positive reply was really just acknowledging him. I am completely cynical and pessimistic about Microsoft. Any “correction” by Microsoft would be an escalation in attacks on the competition, not winning customers by pleasing them. Linux patent infringement lawsuits perhaps.

Interesting information

In reply to How right you are!

On the note of sales figures and usage in the general community, it has been decided that Vista in all its forms will be forbidden with in the DOI networks. This represents a major blow to Microsoft Vista market share as DOI is one of the larger users of information systems in the US government. The two big deciding factors on this issue were of course the WGA issue and the inability to control Vista systems through a GPO without expanding scope.

I wonder how long before WGA

In reply to Interesting information

When WGA begins to take out the XP computers with some shut downs here and there will the dump M$ ? Especially if its a USS something Carrier some place out to sea and comes to a grinding halt . . I hope they have a copy of Linux with them to get it back up and running
LMAO
As windows has said WGA is coming to your XP Computer in a update file or a patch file . .

Good Bye Vista and whatever next Micro$oft OS

In reply to I was looking forward to upgrading to Vista somewhere down the line

I’ve been loyal to Micro$oft since early ’90’s with all their versions from 3.1 and including Me! Lo and behold, I installed ”Me” in late 1999 on my old laptop and never had any problems except one or 2 restores which worked quite well after installing some new software.

Now, this week, after installing the patches for another batch of M$ critical XP updates, I’ve had 3 crashes… and no way I’m going to Vista… absolutely no way.

Hey TT

In reply to Right there with you

try getting something like Kubuntu 6.10 Desktop.

Here at work, we call Windows Vista “KDE Redmond”…it looks almost identical, short of some title bar shading and what not.

If it werent for my stubborn USB-based 11.g wireless on my new mobo, I’d already be up and running Linux…and…by Christmas…all my machines (all except my laptop, that is) will be dual boot and I will be majority using Linux in some form…whether *Ubuntu or openSUSE or Mepis.

Good luck 🙂

Windows Advocate

In reply to Right there with you

I know a lot of you are windows advocates as I was also up
until about 5 years ago when I discovered Mac OS X. It has
certain caveats coming from windows that you may need
to work around but, all in all they are very minimal. If you
are not a hardcore pc gamer, then I would suggest trying
a mac, they can boot windows or run windows in paralells
or fusion quite easily. Not to discredit Linux, a fine system
that it is, but OS X has a Unix backbone with a very nice
GUI on the front, with wide commercial software support.
That is why it gets my vote. I still need to use windows for
small stuff, mostly testing websites look and functionality,
but all the development is done on a mac. MySQL and
Apache server out of the box, along with a slew of wsywig
programs to use building the site, it is a gem. Also video
editing is just superb.

re: Mac

In reply to Windows Advocate

If I were to buy a Mac, I’d probably install Darwin on it. I don’t have much need for straightjacket OSes.

Horses for courses

In reply to re: Mac

Fair enough, but what do you call windows? There’s a
straightjacket if I ever saw it. So you like a command line,
that’s fine, but in general use, I like most people prefer a
nice GUI. Especially when I tend to think that the Mac has the
best GUI out there.

One mans…

In reply to Horses for courses

I think when Lucretius coined the phrase “What is food to one man may be fierce poison to others” around 99 to 55bc, he did not realise the extent to which it would go… thus we get one man’s meat is another man’s poison… and a freedom fighter to one is a terrorist to another… So it is with windows… One person’s MAC OS is another person’s KUBUNTU… or whatever flavour of OS one prefers. It does not necessarily mean that one is better than the other, rather that a particular OS is better suited to a particular person, and vice versa.

However, than being said… it is submitted that MS Windows is not as good as some other less mainstream (and mainstream is used liberally here) Windows counterparts.

At the end of the day, it is what each one prefers. Unfortunately most are biased to Windows as they suffer under “they use what they know” rather using something they are likely to be more comfortable using, being to afraid of having to learn new things, to cross the bridge to another OS.

So as for tending “…to think that the Mac has the best GUI out there.” It may well be for you, but to another it may be the worst.

Hence, it would seem, people choose what people choose, and no matter what anyone submits it will stay way… I think the phrase by Samuel Butler, from Hudibras. Part iii. Canto iii. Line 547., when he wrote “he that complies against his will is of his own opinion still” aptly applies here.

I Agree

In reply to One mans…

I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying. I am just
putting forth the argument that why bitch about the state
of windows when there are other alternatives which may
provide a very suitable alternative to the problems which
plague windows users. I have used various flavours of
Linux, Open Suse, Fedora, Mandrake, etc. I have been
using a Mac for the last 5 years, but prior to that, I used
exclusively windows. I say don’t be afraid, stop putting up
with the crap that Microsoft dish out and have a look
around at the alternatives. I use a Mac for all the
aforementioned advantages over any other system. Virus
free, spyware free, enhanced ease of use, powerful
command line. Commercial software support. Plus an
abundance of good freeware and open source titles. What
more could one want? Only if you are a serious PC gamer
should you consider using only windows. I only use it
from a development standpoint.

re: Windows

In reply to Horses for courses

I install FreeBSD on anything I get with MS Windows on it these days (unless I specifically need MS Windows to test what I develop — I generally need to keep one MS Windows machine around, though it’s usually not booted up). Thus, MS Windows gets the same treatment MacOS X probably would with me: replacement.

“[i]So you like a command line,
that’s fine, but in general use, I like most people prefer a
nice GUI.[/i]”

Let’s not leap to the conclusion that OSes other than MS Windows and MacOS X are only good for command line work. I like a good (productivity-enhancing) GUI environment, too. I use the CLI where it’s best suited to the task, and I use the GUI where it’s best suited to the task. OSes like MS Windows and (to a lesser degree) even MacOS X get in the way of that, but that doesn’t have anything to do with wanting to avoid the GUI.

It’s trivially easy these days to step into the world of unix-like OSes without having to deal with the CLI any more than you would with MS Windows or MacOS X. It’s not simply an appreciation for the command line that makes me choose an OS that doesn’t feel like a straightjacket.

“[i]Especially when I tend to think that the Mac has the
best GUI out there.[/i]”

I certainly think that Aqua is better than Aero, but I disagree that it’s the “best” GUI out there. Of course, I’m sure we have different ideas about what a GUI should do. Mine has little or nothing to do with windows that stretch and distort when you move them across the screen, highlights and drop shadows, or rounded corners. Instead, mine has a lot to do with things like good (and easily configurable) keyboard shortcuts for everything I need, simple scriptability, low resource consumption, greater flexibility, excellent workspace management, and so on.

It’s also worth noting that you can basically duplicate either Aqua or Aero with certain of the window managers available for use with the X Window System, so it’s not like you can’t basically have either of those GUI environments without having to lock yourself into MS Windows or MacOS X — to say nothing of the fact that if 3D bells and whistles and pretty pastels are what really define a “good” GUI for you, perhaps you should be looking at Compiz Fusion instead of Aqua or Aero (which look obsolete by comparison).

Ubuntu is a good choice

In reply to Right there with you

I have win98, win2k, winXP, and ubuntu7.10 at home and I was very surprised to find that ubuntu is easy to install and easy to learn. In my opinion it’s ready for the average user as long as one person in the house is willing to learn about how to configure it and install new software.

It has tons of great features, including automatic updates , online time sync, an IM that connects to several services, tons of free software available from several online repositories, almost everything can be configured, not to mention it runs well on slower machines.

I read that there are so many Linux driver developers volunteering their time that they are actually asking for driver requests to keep them busy. So in the event that you find you need a driver you can’t find, you can request one!

Also, to try it out you can download an iso image and burn it to a CD and run Ubuntu completely from the CD to see if you like it or not. If you decide to install it you can do a dual boot with everything up to XP (not sure about Vista) and it will install a boot loader (that modifies your Master Boot Record, so you might want to back up your hdd image first) that lets you select which OS to use at boot-up.

I’ll bet that once you get it set up and install all of the software your family household members need, figuring a few interesting hours using google to get everything sorted out or explained to your liking, you’ll have all of your household members up to speed and completely comfortable within a week.

I have been saying that from the beginning

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

but yes, I agree that this is a big problem. Running a video game deactivates it and only 3 days??? And, does this count towards total reactivations? If the game was once again played, even on accident and it triggered yet another reactivation event, your Windows reactivations are running out.

WTF was MS thinking on this.

Well then you must be a little smarter than me :p NT

In reply to I have been saying that from the beginning

…

Vista, a big no no.

In reply to Well then you must be a little smarter than me :p NT

How about some info on other operating systems. What thay can and can’t do. If MS/vista won’t heed our complaints, lets move on.

Ok there is www.linuxcentral.com

In reply to Vista, a big no no.

http://www.linuxcentral.com is a good place to start with OTHER O/S’s and read a bit !

There are several different breeds of Linux there ! I have about 7 of them and have loaded 5 of them to test out what each can do . . Or not do ! . .

So far I am with Linux 2007 ( comes with 6 CD’s of stuff to install ) and 1 other !
Linspire 5.0 ( comes on 2 CD’s )almost looks like Windows has tons of stuff built in so you do not have to go looking for more plus its got all the open source programs and one monster “HELP” file . .

And if you want to run windows stuff yet . . There is Code Weavers and Cedrega (sp)and Wine . . to be able to run a lot of windows stuff with . .

That’s the problem. MS wasn’t thinking and considers us all pirates

In reply to I have been saying that from the beginning

So now the legitimate owners of Vista are thrown into the same dirty pool of pirates that are using so called “non-genuine” copies of Vista according to Bill Gates and his dorks in charge.

I’m glad we don’t have this re-activation nonsense with automobiles or other vehicles. Imagine having to apply for a new title everytime you change your worn out tires or replace the spark plugs. The idea is assinine and completely pointless.

Legitimate Users or Hostages?

In reply to That’s the problem. MS wasn’t thinking and considers us all pirates

I’ve been watching the ads recently for a replacement computer and it appears an individual consumer would have a tough time getting XP installed on a new computer.

Seems like I have the choice of any OS I want as long as it’s Vista. Wow, what a way to propagate a new product, force your pool of manufacturers to install nothing else.

moved

In reply to Legitimate Users or Hostages?

oops wrong section

What??

In reply to I have been saying that from the beginning

Do you mean that there is a limit on the number of times you can reactivate software you’ve already bought?? So every time I have to reactivate the OS because it found something it did not like on my PC, it reduces the number of heartbeats the thing has left? What’s the limit? If it’s like 10K then who cares? If it’s 3 then there is a more serious problem.
I am planning on purchasing a new PC is the very near future. One of my requirements is that it have XP as the operating system. Vista does not provide any feature I need and it sucks up resouces from the PC that could be put to better us.
MS, go blow yourself.

I thought it was 12, but this article says 10

In reply to What??

Bit-tech.net got the Microsoft view on the numbers of activations possible with a copy of retail Vista before further action is required. The number comes in at 10 and it seems a little low. However, Vista will differ from XP in that it thankfully will not need reactivation as often. In fact, it will take changing a hard drive and one other component to do it. That?s less stringent than needing reactivation after changing three components from a wider list in a set period like it is in XP. I cannot remember the exact duration of the period in question but 60 days seems to ring a bell.

taken from this site

http://technologytales.com/2007/02/15/is-vista-licensing-too-restrictive/

What? “total” reactivations?

In reply to I have been saying that from the beginning

Whaaat? There are “limits” on reactivations? I change my machines around all the time; software, hardware, the gammut. Is MS saying that I can only put in a new card or install a game demo a pre-MS-approved number of times?

I’m sorry, but this defines them as NAZIS! (there, I win the “nazi-post” prize!)

Seriously, though, this is totally unacceptable. I would and will never pay for this sort of low-class treatment.

Incorrect IMO

In reply to I have been saying that from the beginning

I have installed (8) and played quite a few games on the Vista platform now. Not once has this issue come up. All games installed are new or only a year old.

So I say that this looks to be rubbish on the software installation / activation issue.

Are we still basing the facts around RC2 again???? – If so WHY??????????????…it was an RC not a GOLD release.

No. There is a real problem with WGA.

In reply to Incorrect IMO

.
[b][i]”…So I say that this looks to be rubbish on the software installation / activation issue…”[/i][/b]

I think there is not general problem with games and DE-activation, per se. There was something that particular game did that triggered the DE-activation.

The troubling thing for me is: What was it? Why is it that ANY application software, either installing or executing, can trigger DE-activation with 3 days notice? What is to stop malware from doing it?

I believe what happened is a real problem. There is a forum with hundreds of people who are having WGA problems. To be sure, some of them could be pirates stirring up trouble. But, I really believe there is a problem here. At the very least, I believe Ed Bott of ZDNet did not “rig” this. And, I know that Microsoft has issued a patch to “fix” the problem that Ed Bott found.

I don’t care if it is considered “fixed” now. There is still a “bomb” in Vista’s WGA. I won’t use a product with an unpredictable “bomb” in it.

The issue to me…

In reply to No. There is a real problem with WGA.

…is that having paid the asking price for both my computer(s) and operating system, MS’s WGA is capable of denying me the use of my property — e.g., the computer — on something very much like a whim. And even though I have done nothing wrong, much less illegal. That is a right MS does not have, and one not even the government has without due process. This is way over the line even for a predator like MS.

I really agree with you

In reply to The issue to me…

You know, this WGA DE-activation nonsense will be a test of the language in the license. If the operating system self-deactivates, and there is some economic damage to the customer, he has good grounds to sue Microsoft for just compensation.

I could easily see a massive class action lawsuit here.

Gee. What a surprise. Microsoft having to defend itself in court. :^0

It would even be worse…

In reply to I really agree with you

If a lot of the problems cropped up WRT WGA on Federal computers. I would wager against MS under those conditions.

Sadly…

In reply to I really agree with you

…I’ll bet that the EULA is written in iron to prevent us from nailing MS in court. And of course, Windows won’t install unless you accept and waive all liability. By the way, I gave up on MS products years ago when they first started requiring activation. It was pretty clear where things would end up even then. Now, hopefully, they’ll offend enough people so that they’ll be forced to change.

The problem with EULAs…

In reply to I really agree with you

…is that you have to buy the software (or license) before you get a chance to even read the EULA. If consumers were forced (Ha!) to read and understand the EULA before plunking down their dollars, a lot fewer commercial software products would be sold. They all say, in effect, we take your money and you get this product, which may or may not work, but either way, if it harms you or your business, you can’t blame us. If people ever read or understood EULAs, there would be howls of outrage because they deprive the consumer/end-user of all protection. But nobody ever bothers to read them, they just click “accept” and charge ahead blindly.

Sorry MS has it all covered

In reply to I really agree with you

And you agreed to their licence
Here is some of the things checked by activation

Display Adapter
SCSI Adapter
IDE Adapter
Network Adapter MAC Address
RAM Amount Range (i.e. 0-64mb, 64-128mb, etc)
Processor Type
Processor Serial Number
Hard Drive Device
Hard Drive Volume Serial Number
CD?ROM / CD-RW / DVD-ROM

I found the suggested next Question

In reply to Sorry MS has it all covered

I was sitting here laughing when I read the opening of the next question to be . . As it just about was my thoughts also ! Bet it got
RICKK’s attention !

Ed

In reply to No. There is a real problem with WGA.

I don’t he “fixed” this either, but face it, whether it be TR or ZdNet, they are looking to stir up trouble.

It’s all about page hits, ads, etc. and we’re feeding his kids right now.

I agree

In reply to No. There is a real problem with WGA.

Come to think of WGA there is no Windows Genuine Advantage. Especially when the OS costs as much as the PC itself!!!!

The hardware used to cost…

In reply to I agree

.
The hardware used to cost somewhere around US$5000. Competition and huge volume manufacturing drove the speed up and the cost of the hardware down to the much lower levels we see today. But, the cost of the operating system has not dropped at all. It has gone up! Windows 95 upgrade: US$89. Windows Vista upgrade: US$289.

This is what we get when there is a monopoly that can set the price to whatever it wants. This is why Microsoft sold US$44 BILLION last year, US$50 BILLION projected this year. This is why Microsoft can put WGA capricious de-activation into Windows and get away with it (only some people will defect due to WGA de-activation).

Since my original post in February, I have moved to Linux on my primary computer and am quite pleased. It’s an excellent system. It doesn’t have to be perfect, either. It just has to do what I need and to not capriciously de-activate.

Microsoft [u]must[/u] be brought down to 50% market share. The dog must be taught to heel. Spread the word.

Robbery

In reply to The hardware used to cost…

It is legal robbery… The manufacturers are not the only ones to blame however… we, the people, the idiots, that buy it are guilty too, we should stop buying it, and when we stand together as one on this, then the prices will come down, but until then, they will continue to rise, because we will continue to buy!

DISCLAIMER: WE, PEOPLE, IDIOTS do not necessarily reflect the people in TR, and any reference is entirely co-incidental. WE, PEOPLE, IDIOTS are not descriptive, just words to get my message across.

Stay The Course

In reply to I have been saying that from the beginning

Look, we’ve always been waiting for the next Windows release and blindly either buying it or leaving it on the computer that we had just purchased. So, why is Vista different? I mean, come on, lets just stay the course. Look how well it worked for the U.S. in Iraq.

Arn’t

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

we lucky that planes don’t run on Vista. We could be stuck up here for weeks.

Vista

In reply to Arn’t

My Espanio is not so good, as you can tell already. But let me say, Asta La Vesta to Vista! I’ve been with Gates since CPM and something called MSDOS circa 1982. Not goin a doit! notta notta!

Monorails do, or will

In reply to Arn’t

We rode in the front of the monorail at DisneyWorld and while the operator was out, I heard that familiar Windows sound. It had crashed and rebooted while he was out of the monorail. Granted it was Win98 (does that make it worse?), but I wanted to get out at that point.

Mal Vista

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I think MS has reached its point of no returns with Vista. Most of the people I know, even the hard-core “got to have the latest Windows OS” crowd are staying away from Vista. I’m not going there, either. My brand new built-for-games PC passes the Vista compatibility check, but it irritates no end that the most current versions I have of some M$ software “may have compatibility issues.”

What a crock. Sticking with XP and investigating BSD, Suse, and Fedora.

Stress Junkie had mentioned

In reply to Mal Vista

a Linux distro called PC Linux OS,
I downloaded it and it seems to work pretty well so far, although I am more used to SUSE myself, I think that it has potential.

Might be another to look at.

I’ll download tonight

In reply to Stress Junkie had mentioned

and give it a look.

Thanks for the tip.

Thanks for the tip

In reply to Stress Junkie had mentioned

I’m going to check PC LINUX OS out also. Thanks!

I’m really enthusiastic about this distribution of Linux.

In reply to Stress Junkie had mentioned

I’ve run about a dozen distributions of Linux in the last eleven years, and I’ve given a quick peek to about another dozen. I started using PCLinuxOS about six months ago. The first thing that really impressed me is how easy it is to configure wireless network cards. The next thing is that it already has all of the software to play MP3, WMV, and other styles of multimedia files. If you want to play commercial DVDs you can easily download the driver for that (libdvdcss) from the software installer (Synaptic).

PCLinuxOS is simply the most user friendly distribution of Linux that I’ve ever seen.

http://pclinuxos.org

Currently they are about to release a new version of their distribution. You can download the last test version but you will have to erase it and install the released version when that is available. Don’t let that put you off though. The test version will work. It just can’t use the software repository that is being created for the new release.

Haven’t tried it yet

In reply to I’m really enthusiastic about this distribution of Linux.

Have the fiance working with Open CD tools on his XP box- had to start somewhere and he’s pretty resistant- and have Knoppix and Kubuntu burned to disc. Also have a SuSe distro. PC Linux is on the list as your description sounds like it is the perfect answer for the fiance’s mom and brother. Neither of them really use the computer for much and really don’t understand them at all so I am looking for the simplest and most closely aligned to what they know.

I started a thread on the subject some time ago located here: http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=212004

There are some great links in it to a wide variety of sites that I am finding very helpful.

I don’t understand the machine that is Microsoft. I think they are making a major mistake this time.

Linux Uber Alles?

In reply to I’m really enthusiastic about this distribution of Linux.

How funny (and how Microsoft!) that a discussion on Windows Vista quickly morphs into a Linux promo!

not uber alles

In reply to Linux Uber Alles?

For my part, I’m more of a fan of FreeBSD.

. . . but Linux Uber Microsoft is certainly something worth considering.

I have never got to use FREE BSD

In reply to not uber alles

Either I typed a wrong letter when I did the set up or something as it kept spitting back wrong ID or password . Never got to sign in . So I dumped it and threw away the CD’s ! I never had that problem with any of the other Linux versions I have installed and thats about 7 versions now !
Linux 2007, PCLinuxOS, Puppy, Ubbuntu, Xenos, Linspire 5.0 etc etc going to try the newist PCLinuxOS TR-4 here in a bit downloading it now and will put it on the second computer just to try it out . .

How about Solaris then?

In reply to Linux Uber Alles?

or maybe FreeDOS, ?:| as it is the pre-loaded OS on the non-M$ computers and NB’s being sold now.
I think maybe people are just now starting to wake up to the fact that there are choices out there. And that’s not a bad thing at all. -d

WOW… did you say Linux?

In reply to Linux Uber Alles?

The Vista that many users now see is their computers running smoothly and rock solid on Linux. Because of Vista’s poor performance, Linux is gaining market share in all directions.

Thats for sure

In reply to WOW… did you say Linux?

I have said that over and over and no one seems to listen . . And Now Dell is offering computers with Linux on them to start . . Must have had problems with adding “Vista” to them ! . . And Linux was the only other choice they had to go to . . Plus I have sold a few computers with Linux on them now also and I am just a small business . .

Well there are 3 O/S’s

In reply to Linux Uber Alles?

Mac, Linux, and the last Windows ! If some one has a Problem with the Windows and they got a PC, that leaves them Linux as the only Alternative to run ! . . As of yet Mac Software will NOT run on a PC, you can run windows on a Mac and Linux on Mac just not the other way around YET ! . . I wonder if I can run Mac on a Linux computer have not seen anything for that yet either . .

Various O/S…

In reply to Well there are 3 O/S’s

I would think that there are a little more than three…

See http://tunes.org/Review/OSes.html

There is the forgotten OS2 from IBM see http://www-306.ibm.com/software/os/warp/

This was once rated the most stable OS in the world see http://www.acm.org/crossroads/xrds2-3/warp.html

Yes I once had it

In reply to Various O/S…

I was a supporter of OS/2 and I had OS/2 Warp 4.0 last version before IBM got a wild hair and shut down any newer versions of it. . I ran gobs of stuff on a 6X686 way back when and had almost a gig of ram back then OS/2 ran like a scalded cat compared to windows oooooh well showing my age hahaha . . Its why your CMOS has a spot in it for NON OS/2 memory check STILL !
Maybe they are going to come out with a OS to make windows feel bad after “Vista” dies

Forgotten For Good Reason

In reply to Various O/S…

It was forgotten on purpose. Please do not revive it!

OS2 Warp

In reply to Forgotten For Good Reason

Bring back OS2!

PCLinuxOS

In reply to Stress Junkie had mentioned

I have used this distribution on a limited basis. I am very pleased with the ease of installation. My networked printer and sound applications worked without any “tinkering”.

PCLinuxOS

In reply to PCLinuxOS

As I type this, I am using a live cd and it is much faster than winxp! I am really impressed and am going to wipe a hdd and install!

might be helpfull info for you

In reply to Mal Vista

I use OpenBSD3.9, FreeBSD6.1 Suse9.3 and Windows 2000 ( all the Os’s you mention)
BSD is Ultra stable. My Suse is better than Windows 2000 but its not quite as good as FreeBSD6.1 I do get some minor bugs with SuSE. BSD takes a day or two to understand all the details of the install if you have never done it before. Basically you have to read everything your asked, not keep pressing “Enter”. Open BSD would not be a good idea for the desktop in my opinion. FreeBSD is better for that. Use FreBSD6.1+ and load Linux software onto it and you will have a serious machine. Other Linux distros are all OK in the end they feel similar. Bit like different Windows OSes 98,2000,XP etc. FreeBSD does seem to work very well as a server. I have one old box left on for something like a year, I forget it. The PSU fan will fill up with dust and overheat sometime in the next few years. This is all that seems to go wrong! Ubuntu is the favorite Desktop I happen to like Koppix because it writes well into Windows NTFS discs ( in my windows 2000).
All in All IF you havent done it before I would go with Ubuntu to get the hang of Linux then go FreeBSD if you need a serious machine. Keep the OpenBSD for Firewalls bridges and anything security under OpenBSD it will be OK (try not to alter the defaults and its “fairly” secure).
Theo would of course understand that by “fairly” I mean better than any other “operating system” in the world. The problem with security being people’s behavior not the OS.

good, short overview

In reply to might be helpfull info for you

I avoid MS Windows when at all practical to do so. My favorite flavor of Linux is Debian. I stick with *BSD as much as I can.

Yeah, it looks like we tend to agree, overall.

Just curious

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

When did you install the OS, relative to installing/running the game?

Which version did you install?

Ed Bott experienced this, not I

In reply to Just curious

.
Ed says that a dialog box popped up a few minutes after he began playing the game. He documents the sequence here (2).

——————————–

(1) Vista WGA problems confirmed
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=221

(2) Sequence to Vista pulling the pin on the grenade
http://content.zdnet.com/2346-12354_22-56084.html

(3) What does Windows Vista reduced functionality mode look like?
http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=286

(4) Vista reduced functionality mode – Gallery
http://content.zdnet.com/2346-12554_22-56027-3.html

That’s what we were warned about.

In reply to Ed Bott experienced this, not I

I actually thought that the prerelease warnings about this sort of thing would turn out to be wrong. The sequence of events in reference 2 are almost unbelievable. Does Microsoft think that people will remain loyal to their products with that kind of harassment? If you purchased that game and installed it you wouldn’t be able to run it. That’s a total waste of money, not to mention that the operating system isn’t doing its job which is to run applications.

I think Microsoft has really gone too far and people will not tolerate it.

Vista tech support also reduced

In reply to That’s what we were warned about.

MS has just cut the availability of tech suport on some versions of Vista from ten years to five. Their reasoning is obscure. At the same time, they are apparently extending support on Windows XP. Makes you wonder what they know that we don’t.

Just another reason to avoid Vista.

Tech support

In reply to Vista tech support also reduced

If I remember right I think its 5 years support + 5 years extended support
Extended support means no new support
They just allow you to get the existing updates

ONCE AGAIN – a BETA VERSION

In reply to Ed Bott experienced this, not I

“When I installed a beta version of Acclaim’s 9Dragons role-playing game”

It was a BETA. Hence anything like this happening is why the BETA was created. Once the final version comes out there will be no such problem.

Once AGAIN comments are being made about BETA software interactions as if they are FACTS!

ONE…MORE…TIME…THIS IS A REAL PROBLEM :-)

In reply to ONCE AGAIN – a BETA VERSION

.
I don’t care. Vista GOLD CODE has a “feature” inside it that will capriciously DE-activate the operating system with 3 days notice because of what software does. I don’t care if it is beta software, GA software, or malware.

I am not going to bring home any product that has a “bomb” in it, even if the vendor promises that the “bomb” will only explode if the product is ever stolen.

The vendor cannot really promise that anyway (this is software, [u]Microsoft[/u] software). And, the vendor doesn’t have to clean up the mess when the “bomb” goes off. I do. I [u]hate[/u] waiting on hold to speak to someone in Bangalore. I just hate it.

It’s not like there aren’t very good alternatives that do not have “bombs” in them (Linux and Mac). I’m going to use one of the “bomb-less” alternatives.

It’s OK if you want to use Vista. Really. 🙂

Are you migrating all your servers as well???

In reply to ONE…MORE…TIME…THIS IS A REAL PROBLEM :-)

and to what?

Windows Servers…

In reply to Are you migrating all your servers as well???

.
Refusing Vista really means leaving Windows eventually. And, you cannot stay on Windows XP forever. The same rules apply to Windows Server 2003, SQL Server and Oracle, MS Exchange, and middleware you might have invested in.

If you are running an IT infrastructure based on Windows Server (and especially middleware with MS SQL Server), you really don’t have the option of “refusing” Vista and leaving Windows. And, I would NOT recommend it, unless you define a strategic project to accomplish the migration. You are kind of stuck with your prior decision to invest in your Microsoft-based IT infrastructure.

However, I would introduce Vista on my own terms. I would wait at least until SP1. I would wait until all drivers that I need are available. I would wait until all applications that I use are updated and working well on Vista. I would wait until all of my custom internal apps were updated and working correctly. I would test heavily before rolling out. And, I would wait until the timing was right for my company. I would probably wait at least a year, or two, or more.

Getting off the “hook” is largely dependent on how deeply you have swallowed it. If you have an IT infrastructure based on Windows Server, the hook is pretty deep.

Good luck!

You Never Answered the Question!!!!!

In reply to Windows Servers…

Are you migrating your Servers all to Open Source or is the whole rant / plan about leaving windows Smoke & Mirrors?

TechMale: You didn’t like my answer? :^0

In reply to Windows Servers…

.
Smoke and mirrors? Surely you jest. Trust issues, Mr. TechMale? :^0

So…You want me to “prove” that I’m refusing Vista and moving from XP to Linux over the coming months? That’s pretty funny! :^0

You really need to take what I’ve posted here at face value. I’m not going to “prove” it to you. Here and in the other thread, I’ve explained why I won’t upgrade to Vista, and how and why I will move from XP to Linux. The rationale either makes sense to you or it doesn’t.

This is about clients: XP and Vista. I’m not talking about servers.

And, you have used up all of your “20 questions”, Mr. TechMale. Game over. 🙂

Haha! Don’t say we didn’t warn you!

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

From the time I played with the Vista Beta up until now, I won’t let Vista within 500 feet of my systems.

Same thing — well almost

In reply to Haha! Don’t say we didn’t warn you!

Since the first beta I decided to start looking into Linux as an alternative. I had made up my mind to stick with XP until it is no longer a benefit, and move to another OS. At home I will not touch Vista.
At work however, I have too. Luckily (for now at least) it is limited. I told my manager that when it comes time that I need to support Vista in any way, I need to move on. Looks like an April-July timeframe for me to find a new job, cause thats when it starts rolling here.

What is everyone’s rush?

In reply to Same thing — well almost

What is the rush to get Vista? We all know of Micro$oft’s track record – they always release software LONG before it’s actually ready. This OS will be full of anomolies and bugs and will take at least until Sp1 to be of any interest to me.

Try SUSE 10.2 – it’s free, it works, it’s yours to keep, your not renting from Gates.

I havent tried that one

In reply to What is everyone’s rush?

I am using 10.1
Also PCLinixOS
I couldnt get Mandriva to install on my system, and was warned off of Kubuntu by security issues brought up by the Linux Guru’s here
Fedora 4 and 5 kept dying on my system when I setup dual screen mode

so SUSE and PCLinuxOS are the 2 currently fiddling with. No real issues with them either. SUSE had an install snafu, it tried to setup to my wireless instead of wired LAN. But this was probably due to the MB having the wireless adapter the first adapter. I noticed it and viola, the switch was made.

I wouldn’t do that!

In reply to Same thing — well almost

I wouldn’t leave a job just because they are using Vista. We’ll have to face it some time. I’m sure that I will eventually run into a client that is using Vista. Then another one. Then most of them. I won’t turn down work just because I don’t like the software that they are using. In one sense bad products mean more work for us. I understand if you are on salary and bad products mean more uncompensated late hours but we still have to make a living. Maybe when the business is interrupted too many times the managers will look into going back to XP or look into alternatives. You’ll be prepared in either case. 🙂

on the other hand

In reply to I wouldn’t do that!

Maybe he’s looking for jobs that don’t involve up to date MS Windows use at all. If he moves on to an all open source shop, and has wanted to get out of the proprietary OS line of work for a while anyway, now is the [b]perfect[/b] time to “move on” from his current job.

I think we need more information to be able to determine whether the decision to leave a job because of Vista adoption is a good one, in this case.

Actually….

In reply to I wouldn’t do that!

if more people were to avoid supporting MS products there would be a larger and faster move to real OS’s. I for one do not support any MS OS. I have XP Home, XP Pro and 2000 running multi-boot on one box in house but only for those times when I need to check something. And that box is not booted very often. I have moved approximately 85% of my clients to Linux/BSD solutions and away from MS. They are happy and I am happy.

chuck

It seems that explanation is needed.

In reply to I wouldn’t do that!

The place I work at is IT unfriendly, especially for a technology company. My job was supposed to go away last Oct. but I was kept on by pleading employees and lots of feedback to management. The rest of my team has been let go, and my job is no longer in IT.

Because I am no longer in IT but doing IT things, I have to ‘hide’ what I am doing constantly. I rearranged my cubicle and hid some of my comps that are needed for certain tasks. I was told that I am only here long enough to ‘ween’ the dept off of having its own IT, and that they need to contact the regular IT.
Because of this, my position here is probably not going to last much longer as is, and since I want to have nothing to do with Vista, I have decided to look for a position that is platform independant and/or not customer service related. Preferably I would be using SUSE 10 or PCLinuxOS at this point in time, but it may be a different OS.

This is a good time to start to move on. I have seen many jobs posted asking for Win XP/Linux skills. If I learn more about Linux, then I should be able to fill in one of these roles just fine.

Other than that, I am studying in Wireless technologies to leave the support field and move on.

So it is not really regretful that I pass up on MS for the near future, or have to find a new job, as I was planning on it anyway. I was going to wait until I was all certified first. But, this has just made me start moving along a little sooner, that’s all.

Vista wasnt the only factor involved, just a big nudge to move on.

Its Just A Program

In reply to I wouldn’t do that!

Computers are tools to be used as a means to an end. With that in mind, you should choose the best fit for your needs. If a Mac is the answer, go with that. For me, it was Linux for a long time, but my needs changed and caused me to switch back to Windows as that most closely fit my needs.

As far as employment goes..do you really care what OS they use at work…beyond how well it performs as a tool for your business( or employer’s business ). If it is a support nightmare, then avoid it. If it doesn’t run you business apps, avoid it. And so on. But please, don’t leave the job because they use OSS or non-OSS.
Leave because the job no longer gives you a good return on investment. This could be long, uncompensated hours. Low pay. Bad working environment. Or perhaps you are just don’t find the work interesting any more.

For me, its location and money that decide where I work. I like short commutes and money…the more the better. The third runner up is hours. I keep life and work cleanly separated, and that it easier to accomplish with reasonably short work hours.

Get a grip

In reply to Same thing — well almost

You would seriously move jobs just because your current employer is moving to Vista? In a corporate environment Vista will be so locked down by AD or local policy you wont be getting these ridiculous errors.

Instead of running scared, why not do some serious testing of your company’s software products on Vista and maybe learn a thing or two about the OS.

I am not a Vista junkie, I wont be moving my hospitals PCs over to Vista until after SP1 is released, and then only after seeing what SP1 will do to the systems.

If you won the lottery [i]EVERY SINGLE DAY[/i], would you still want more?

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

.
I just had a thought…

During the last year, Microsoft sold $44 BILLION and cleared $18 BILLION in profit. That is over $49 MILLION in profit, [u]every single day[/u]. That is like winning the lottery, [u]every day, of every week, of every month, of every year[/u].

Yet, Microsoft wants more! :0

And, they are willing to damage the experience of [u]paying Windows Vista customers[/u] in an effort to get it.

I just don’t get it. What could be better than winning the lottery [u]every single day[/u]? I cannot imagine wanting more than that, and hurting innocent people to get it. Can you?

There is a word for that: Evil. ]:)

Yes. The cost to legitimate customers is too high.

In reply to If you won the lottery [i]EVERY SINGLE DAY[/i], would you still want more?

I understand any business trying to recover lost revenue. The question is how do their efforts to recover the revenue affect legitimate customers. In this case it looks like Microsoft is willing to increase the pain to legitimate customers beyond what most people will accept. This is probably going to help Apple a lot. I expect that sales of Macintoshes will rise in the next 24 months.

I agree

In reply to Yes. The cost to legitimate customers is too high.

.
You’re absolutely right and I agree. There is nothing wrong with a business seeking to recover lost revenue and reduce piracy. Your words are better than mine in that they are more balanced. I agree with you.

I wasn’t trying to be balanced. My words were addressing the extreme amounts of money involved. Most companies would KILL to have the revenues and profits that Microsoft does. Yet, they still whine and complain and demand more of what they think they deserve.

During the last year, Microsoft:

– Sold $44 BILLION in goods and services

– Cleared $18 BILLION in profits

– Had 71,000 employees

– Sold $619,700 [u]per employee[/u] :0

– Spent $366,000 [u]per employee[/u] :0

– Had $253,500 profit [u]per employee[/u] left over :0

Those numbers are far far above what other successful companies achieve. Those are numbers that only a monopoly can achieve, one that can raise and/or maintain high prices at will. Remember that Windows 95 $89.00 upgrade? What happened to that? There was competition back then. OS/2 was there and Microsoft had to win customers. Not any more! Since they are selling so many hundreds of millions of copies of Windows now vs. ten years ago, the price of Windows should have gone DOWN from $89 since then, not UP, if there were any competition at all.

Since they have a monopoly, and they are fabulously profitable, you would think they would not be so hurtful to their legitimate customers in their effort to make even MORE billions in the Far East and other places where piracy is such a problem for them.

Besides, I doubt it’s really going to work very well. Those guys are not going to buy Windows at any price. They will either break WGA and steal Windows or use Linux. Do you really think the Chinese government is EVER going to use Windows? They don’t trust it to not spy on them for the U.S. government. That is why they are promoting free “Red Flag Linux” over there.

So, yes, my words were unbalanced and I agree with yours.

And, Microsoft is evil. ]:)

I predict something different.

In reply to Yes. The cost to legitimate customers is too high.

There will be a move away from Microsoft, which will have to be accomplished in a number of ways, including adoption of different OSes for personal computers. In different environments, dumb terminals will be possible. I’m not sure a lot of the market for Microsoft products will be able to move into the Macintosh price range any time soon, but if such a move begins in businesses, Apple might work its way into homes the same way Microsoft did. Otherwise, I imagine Open Source operating systems making up a lot of the discrepancy in new computer sales.

Either way, I agree that the next 24 months will be substantially different than the previous 24 months for IT pros.

If this proves to be another M.E.

In reply to I predict something different.

It will be faster than that And the Versions of Linux are very fast making a dent in the Windows area’s Since Dell is now going to begin adding Linux to its computers ( Which means it will BE CHEAPER to buy ) would cut the price of a Dell by what $70.00 or more and give them an advantage over others offering only Windows

The problem for now is the same as

In reply to If this proves to be another M.E.

many times before. Big businesses are not going to dump MS so quickly. Also, people fear change in things that they do not understand.
I recommend for most to stick with XP for now. Although many know I dislike Vista very much.
I keep a couple of Linux boxes running to show people, and sometimes someone will play with one for a bit. I will even show them some things on it as well. So far 2 people have wanted to learn more, while many others just want what they already know. I doubt that this will topple MS, or that it will be a huge failure. But, every day, as their WGA and other issues rise, more and more people will get pissed off enough to move on.

It will not be until the business community moves from MS, that MS will be toppled. But, this is the Best time for Linux. It is re-building itself for the home user and computer illiterate. Because of this, and the MS issues, I do think that Linux has a good chance to be in competition with MS. This may take a few years for the numbers to truly rise to this point, but it is a very interesting time for Linux.

I am crossing my fingers in HOPE !

In reply to The problem for now is the same as

From all the People whom I know who are not going to move to Vista . . And are looking VERY HARD at Linux I have a gob of CD’s with ISO’s on them and run them up as a test of the Version of Linux to see what it can do and whats in it . . I like 3 of them now as they are cheap and very food as to what they have to offer ( I got a new one Ubuntu 7.4 [Fawn ] I think it was and I got to tun a test of it ) See whats all on the CD was just under 700 megs of compressed stuff took about 1 hour to download

right there with you!

In reply to I am crossing my fingers in HOPE !

I have mostly moved to Linux already at home. I am keeping XP for now, but who knows how long. I havent booted the XP system in almost 2 1/2 weeks.

Socialist at Heart

In reply to If you won the lottery [i]EVERY SINGLE DAY[/i], would you still want more?

Ok – time to fess up. You’re a socialist through and through. Where else would you like to dictate prices and profits?

Myself, I live in free country. It is really very simple – I can choose to use MS products or choose something else. I don’t get it. If you don’t like the product…don’t buy it.

Nope. Not a socialist..

In reply to Socialist at Heart

.
Hey Kid: You really need to read before you write. Listen before you speak. You’re way off the mark here.

This post was just noting Microsoft’s willingness to hurt their own customers to satisfy their greed to get more from pirates in certain markets. I used the extreme profits they make to drive the point home.

I don’t advocate price controls on Microsoft at all. And, you cannot find a single place where I said so. You’re just making that up.

As I said in my original post at the top of this thread, I’m just refusing to upgrade to Vista. I don’t like the product and I am not going to buy it. I am going to choose the alternatives. Sounds like we’re completely eye-to-eye here.

So…Do you feel a little foolish now? :^0 😉

MS Fascism

In reply to Nope. Not a socialist..

Who are these tards who think “free enterprise” means Microsoft is free to do whatever the hell they want, and you either pay or go somewhere else? Microsoft is changing the terms of the sale AFTER I buy the product (bugger off with your “you should have read the billion lines of disclaimers” nonsense). This isn’t capitalism, this is fascism. This is corporo-nazism. Once I BUY the software, I have the right to be left the hell alone. But no.

I am in mid-process of migrating my entire network to Ubuntu now. So far so good.

Microsoft, or any corporation, should not own the ability to speak, the same as no one owns the english language. You can charge for lessons, or for books in english, but no one should own the language, and hence control the ability to speak. Microsoft’s stranglehold on my computer’s ability to speak must end. And Linux is the language to achieve this.

slight quibble

In reply to MS Fascism

“[i]And Linux is the language to achieve this.[/i]”
That’s not just Linux. There are other options as well. The various *BSD operating systems probably make up the only other practical alternatives in that vein, for most people at least. That’s another entire family of operating systems, though, that most people neglect when they start talking about practical alternatives to MS Windows.

In fact, something like FreeBSD grants you even greater legal control over your computing environment, because you don’t have to deal with the forced redistribution of code requirements of the GPL with regard to the BSD kernel and core utilities. That’s the main reason I decided to finally give FreeBSD a try, though once I did so I found many more reasons to make it my primary OS of choice.

Microsoft is motivated by greed

In reply to If you won the lottery [i]EVERY SINGLE DAY[/i], would you still want more?

Pure and simple. It’s not innovation,
that’s a PR buzzword and their using it
is a slap in the face to all in the
world who genuinely innovate. It’s not
quality, otherwise there would be less
OS issues. It’s not customer service,
otherwise activation issues would not be
a problem. It’s greed, plain and simple.

What to do if Vista locks you out…

In reply to Microsoft is motivated by greed

Mount the inaccessible drive in a Linux
machine. Linux is able to mount NTFS in
read-only mode, so go ahead and copy
your files and transfer them elsewhere.
Also, try knoppix. With Knoppix you
can get to the files on any computer
as long as it can boot from a DVD.
That way you can have your files and
dump Vista without losing your stuff.

Even Better

In reply to What to do if Vista locks you out…

Use a partition tool (There are a few and no I am not going do their advertising for them)
Resize the partition
Create a new partition
Setup your new OS in the new partition
Move your data off the old partition
Delete the old partition
Resize the new partition
For this you don’t even have to open the case

And what about EFS?

In reply to What to do if Vista locks you out…

If someone decides to follow MS security instructions and encrypts the file system, they will need Vista to get their data back

Greedy b4st4rds

In reply to If you won the lottery [i]EVERY SINGLE DAY[/i], would you still want more?

You’re right, it’s pure greed. I’m all for companies making their millions, but when they get to their billions just what use is all that money doing sitting in a bank. As soon as their profits drop 10%, you can bet that some of their workers will be laid off, despite still having billions in the bank. These big corporations are evil.

As for Vista, it’s bloated, it’s expensive and I’m not going to use it. Why do Microsoft need to treat us all as software pirates? If they want to reduce software piracy, why don’t they slash the costs of Windows and not have all of this activate this and activate that nonsense that annoys us all.

If anyone from Microsoft is reading these comments start listening to the people. (You probably are reading this, just like your people scan Ebay every day to make sure a second hand copy of Windows 98 isn’t being sold!)

Very well Said

In reply to Greedy b4st4rds

Couldn’t agree with you more
Well said, Indeed.
Regards
Aaron

To You It’s Billions, To Me It’s Millions

In reply to Greedy b4st4rds

Where do you draw the line?

For christsakes, we have Democrats running for office in the US who are the supposed champions of rights for the little people, you know, the John Kerrys, Hillary Clintons, etc. yet they have multi-millions “sitting in the bank”.

Or how about Hollywood. You know, the know it alls, the global warming champions, the protectors of endangered species.

The same Hollywood that lives in 20,000 sq ft mansions (by the way, Al Gore’s average electric bill per month is about 10 times the national average here), the fur wearing, private jet flying, garage full of SUV driving, morons that are trying to tell me how to live my life?

Econ 101 dude, that’s the American way.

If you don’t like it, don’t buy their products, don’t live in a society setup like that (I’m sure there’s plenty of commie/socialist dictators that’d be glad to offer you a job), and don’t knock it as millions upon millions of people around the global don’t have a problem with it.

How Much is a Billion then?

In reply to To You It’s Billions, To Me It’s Millions

Depends on where you come from

Million, Million
or
Thousand, Million

As the Song Says…

Well did you hear, there?s a natural order.
Those most deserving will end up with the most.
That the cream cannot help but always rise up to the top,
Well I say: Shit floats.
If you thought things had changed,
Friend you?d better think again,
Bluntly put in the fewest of words,
Cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world.

Now the working classes are obsolete,
They are surplus to societies needs,
So let ?em all kill each other,
And get it made overseas.
That?s the word don?t you know,
From the guys thats running the show,
Lets be perfectly clear boys and girls,
Cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world.

Oh feed your children on Cray fish and Lobster tails,
Find a school near the top of the league,
In theory I respect your right to exist,
I will kill ya if you move in next to me,
Ah it stinks, it sucks, it?s anthropologically unjust,
But the takings are up by a third, Oh So
Cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world.

Your free market is perfectly natural,
Or do you think that I?m some kind of dummy,
It?s the ideal way to order the world,
Fuck the morals, does it make any money?
And if you don?t like it? Then leave.
Or use your right to protest on the street,
Yeah, use your rights but don?t imagine that it?s heard, Oh no no,
Cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world

Tic or is that rickk

In reply to To You It’s Billions, To Me It’s Millions

The end justifies the means is that what you are saying
Or in more simple terms just for you since you have so much trouble understanding what is being said in these posts
It?s the results that counts don?t matter how may people got screwed on the way

RICKK is or has been

In reply to Tic or is that rickk

He has by a consensus of a lot people whom come here, been added to the piles of MS A$$ kissers . . I do not think he has ever used Linux and is afraid it might contaminate his computers IF he really has any to take care of . . Other than his own . . He has this problem of calling people names when he can’t come up with Logic think its has a name hehehehe like my last note from him said I was a raving luny tic !

Sorry to burst your bubble

In reply to Greedy b4st4rds

I’m pretty sure that the only time MS thinks about their users is when they are scraping off the bottom of their proverbial boots wondering where all the “gunk” came from.

We can scream and yell all we like but unfortunately users buy vista on their computers (due to no knowledge of choice as everything in the PC stores has Vista) and once the boss says “start thinking about upgrading” we’ll all grumble but say “yes sir” and life/business will go on as usual.

crack head

In reply to Sorry to burst your bubble

[i]We can scream and yell all we like but unfortunately users buy vista on their computers (due to no knowledge of choice as everything in the PC stores has Vista) and once the boss says “start thinking about upgrading” we’ll all grumble but say “yes sir” and life/business will go on as usual.[/i]

Explanation unnecessary, correct?

Easy way to sell old windows

In reply to Greedy b4st4rds

Give it away and charge a handling cost

Oddly enough . . .

In reply to Easy way to sell old windows

That’s pretty much how all software-based business models should be handled.

and would that handling cost…

In reply to Easy way to sell old windows

be based on pricing models for handling Hazardous Materials? I think so!

:^0

Well Abs if you buy XP Pro upgradeable to Vista

In reply to and would that handling cost…

M$ charge a Handling & Shipping fee here of about $39.00 about one third of the upgrade price to Vista Home Basic which is what they send you out.

Nough said I think on that one, :p

As you move from a Top of the Range to a Bottom of the Range with the M$ supplied Upgrade. I suppose that it makes sense to someone buy I’m dammed if I can see the sense of it. :0

Col

Seen all this before….

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

Think it was around the time Windows XP was released.

Went somthing like – 2000 is fine, XP is 2000 with an updated UI. XP needs activation…moving to Linux….and so on….

what to do while the dust settles

In reply to Seen all this before….

It’s Deja Vu
When XP came online – I used to OS to learn how to “get-around” as many flaws as I could. Made a good living supporting folks who had use and develop under it.

Looks like I am on the learning curve again.

PCLinuxOS, VMWare with XP for personal use.

VMWare with XP

In reply to what to do while the dust settles

Requires an XP Licence so still you cant get away…

But, you haven’t seen it from [i]ME[/i] :-)

In reply to Seen all this before….

.
I have been using Windows since 1992. I have never sworn off Windows. I’m not swearing off Windows now. I’m just refusing to submit to the absurdity of capricious deactivation under Vista. That is an entirely new thing and I won’t stand for being mistreated by a vendor like that.

So, it will be Windows XP for me. And, since Windows XP will likely start becoming a problem due to old age in a few years, I will be taking steps to leave Windows entirely down the road.

But the wave is much bigger this time

In reply to Seen all this before….

There are two separate companies/offices of customers that use our software in the process of planning a switchover to linux this year..because of Vista. I, personally, have never seen this happen anywhere, at least not for the desktop. Their IT contacted me, asking if we have a linux port; I suggested they try wine or crossover.

So No Support then!

In reply to But the wave is much bigger this time

“Their IT contacted me, asking if we have a linux port; I suggested they try wine or crossover.”

That would not be a good enough answer for me when asking about porting apps. May I suggest you start to support under Linux if what you say is true!

With one small exception.

In reply to Seen all this before….

Back then at least every 1 in 4 posts was pro MS defending XP. This is most certainly NOT the case with Vista.

What were the figures of lost MS customers because of XP? I figure with at least 4 times that many this time around.

chuck

Good Bye MS, you’ve screwed me one time too many!

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I’m now an old fart of 66. I started computing in 1981 with CPM, then DOS 2 through to DOS 7 then played with MS first attempt to match Apple with Win286 then Win 386, MS 3.1 etc etc right up to Xp. The constant factor in this long painful experience is that every new release promised to be the answer to a world peace. Instead on each occasion it proved to be a load of BS! Since 1982,I have spent too much time under the bonnet trying to fix problems & BSODS. “It just doesn’t work”, next time it’s Apple.

Wait a mo…

In reply to Good Bye MS, you’ve screwed me one time too many!

“Since 1982,I have spent too much time under the bonnet trying to fix problems & BSODS. “It just doesn’t work”, next time it’s Apple.”

So since 1982 you have never thought of changing OS to another vendor. Looks like you are just following the flock. Nothing has changed in the last 8 years…

Re: Wait a mo…

In reply to Wait a mo…

It doesn’t always work that way TechMail.

Like the original poster, I too have been working with computers since the early 1970’s (mainframes before you ask!).

I’ve done the the MAC thing, done the Unix thing, but MS is the most popular for office environments and therefore dominates. Companies do not like big changes – such as moving from MS to Apple or Unix.

The man appears to be in a stable job. Not his fault he hasn’t been exposed to other OS’s.

I’m sticking with XP – Vista is just a tarted up version and offers nothing. Ask me again in a couple of years what my next step will be. Maybe by then other vendors will jump on the big mistake MS have made and offer an alternative OS to us all.

@ 66 I guess he may be retired!

In reply to Re: Wait a mo…

+ the post read as a personal opinion and not that of a company.

Perhaps you should post more often if you have things to say!!!

@ 66 etc

In reply to @ 66 I guess he may be retired!

“Perhaps you should post more often if you have things to say!!!”

With nice and friendly responses like that, perhaps I should. But wait … .. maybe I have better things to do.

he may be retired

In reply to @ 66 I guess he may be retired!

He is in Cyprus and maybe retirement age is different, TTM, I dont know though.

gjgill@… wrote ‘”It just doesn’t work”, next time it’s Apple.’ What exactly does not work? I am sure it runs office, printers, etc… I think more explanation is needed?

I have to agree, it does sound like personal opinion rather business or company orientated. It may be that some of the comments are related to company exposure, but as I said before, it does not stop individual exposure, only the individual stops that.

Er?

In reply to Re: Wait a mo…

“[i]Ask me again in a couple of years what my next step will be. Maybe by then other vendors will jump on the big mistake MS have made and offer an alternative OS to us all.[/i]”
Are you unaware that many alternatives already exist?

Alternative OS

In reply to Er?

If he is unaware of alternative OS, then perhaps he is not or has not really been involved with IT? I think I am ok with IT, I am not good by any shot, but I am fully aware of at least 5 different OS’s before reading or joining this forum… Perhaps the statement “The man appears to be in a stable job. Not his fault he hasn’t been exposed to other OS’s.” applies to himself… It is not his fault… or is it? I think each one (especially in IT) has a responsibility to look in the market and choose something suitable to our needs, this applies to most things.

Alternative OS exposure

In reply to Re: Wait a mo…

Whereas “Companies do not like big changes – such as moving from MS to Apple or Unix” is true… it does not stop individual exposure to alternative OS, only the individual stops that exposure.

I too have been involved with MS since my pc introduction, since 1994… I became aware of other OS but I was too narrow in my own outlook to try another, more fool me, and I suffer now because of it.

Peoetic Justice for Microsoft

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

.
[Updated 3/5/2007: There is updated information on the website referenced below that says this Vista activation breaker is a hoax. I’m not interested in piracy or cracking. I just found this amusing.]

In the high-tech version of Karma, people are so up-in-arms about Vista’s [i]ACTIVATION WITH CAPRICIOUS DEACTIVATION[/i] “feature”, that some of them are working very hard to rebel. Apparently, someone has found a way to defeat Vista activation by brute force (1).

Except for the fact that innocent Vista buyers are going to be hurt by this, I cannot honestly say I am not amused.

—————————————

(1) Vista activation cracked by brute force
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37941

No, reread your link

In reply to Peoetic Justice for Microsoft

The same site now says that the “crack” doesn’t work in any reasonable time.

I checked and right you are

In reply to No, reread your link

I checked and right you are. I have no interest in cracking or piracy. I was just amused by the irony.

Thanks.

Has anyone thought about this?

In reply to Peoetic Justice for Microsoft

A virus that targets activation
Wont that be fun for Microsoft

Yeah…I expect there will be malware that triggers de-activation

In reply to Has anyone thought about this?

.
Yeah…I expect there will be malware that triggers de-activation. WGA is then supposed to give the user 30 days to re-activate, right? But, truly evil malware will ALSO advance the clock by 31 days for immediate “reduced functionality mode”. Ouch!

There is already a nasty credit card phishing trojan that attacks Windows XP systems and pretends to be “Windows Activation” (1). WGA is so confusing and alarming to many end users that it will probably get a bunch of people.

Microsoft has chosen to ship Windows Vista with a bomb inside it. Microsoft people think that all of their Master’s degrees prove that they are smart enough to control this. They’re wrong. They expect the bomb to only go off when Vista is stolen. They’re wrong. Those people in Redmond have no common sense. Those people in Redmond are effin’ stupid.

You might enjoy this (2).

Seeing what is coming is why I chose to take the extraordinary step of never upgrading to Vista, and leaving Windows entirely (can’t stay on XP forever). I spend most of my time on a terrific Linux workstation these days. It’s not perfect mind you (what is?). But, I’m very pleased and even pleasantly surprised about a number of things. I’m quite happy with my decision and it’s only going to get better.

——————————————-

(1) Windows Genuine Advantage (WGA) MALWARE is here!
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=212977&messageID=2228470

(2) Toyota announces the TOYOTA GENUINE ADVANTAGE Program – Satire
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=212977&messageID=2191699

Funny how

In reply to Yeah…I expect there will be malware that triggers de-activation

The more they try to stop theft
The more they p off their customers
Heres one for you
A tech wrights a script to install windows x
MS finds out and takes them to court
Why?
They altered windows without their permission
They must use the MS installer script
Another
I only moved the recycle bin
Why am I in court?

Shows how stupid this may yet get

A tech rights a script to install windows…

In reply to Funny how

Then taken to court… I have not heard this one, but it seems totally ridiculous. How does it alter windows?

EDIT: Could you perhaps post a link to an article about it please?

Its out there already

In reply to Has anyone thought about this?

There were several notices I got about it already And MS is having a big problem fixing this bug . . Since their WGA gets tipped almost every time you add something to the computer So have fun all you ahummm MS lovers of “Vista”
Called Activation MalWare virus and it running around a lot . . I love it finally some one did it to MS is such a way as to make them wish they had not made such a big deal out of their WGA ! ! Letting your computer run programs and looking for a reason to shut it down . .

O Jackie

In reply to Its out there already

Have look at what wga says on xp classic

This pops up
This version of Windows XP is no longer secure

Then it opens this Web Page
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/sp2/default.mspx

I am glad I do not have

In reply to O Jackie

IF there is 1 thing I am glad about is I DO NOT have XP Anything . .

Well

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

iv’e downloaded and installed PC Linux in a virtual environment and i have had a play. Different but not bad will be playing some more. Just noticed a new post that mentions that the corporate-oriented Vista Enterprise only supports a 3-day trial. This joker wasn’t trying to play games on an Enterprise Build was he. I was a bit peed off that the games had been removed from the business edition.

It was Vista Home Premium

In reply to Well

.
The second screen shot shows he was running Vista Home Premium:

http://content.zdnet.com/2347-12354_22-56084-56091.html?seq=2

Point

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

taken didn’t notice.

Vista/XP also

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

Well i have used windows from win 3.1 (which i hated, my commodore 64 was better)i also used DOS ,i was at a location which i had no phone, cell or land line and had been going to upgrade my hard drive to a larger one for some time but had not done so yet, but had the drive with me,my compaq laptop was giving me trouble and i decided to ghost the old drive to the new thinking it might solve my problem. Compaq has no SMART support in there BIOS, thinking drive might be failing i did so but XP would not let me do anything without activating again,which i had to quit where i was and lose time and return later to finish what i was doing and my HD did die shortly after .I have been trying to switch to Linux off and on for some time but should have learned it years ago while i was younger and had more time.as for Vista i ran the beta,sp1 and a version that came with my action pack subscription and it is a allow/deny nightmare as the Mac commercials show.when XP came out Microsoft had a promotion for myself and employers to buy a copy for $49.87 shipped(it came with a baseball bobble head doll bubble gum in a fancy box)that is a reasonabley price for a OS.Microsoft should just make the software price either more affordable or keep it at it’s high price and let us only buy it once and get the updates forever or some idea like that…There is a saying about trusting but it is slipping mind at this time .But GREED does come to mind.

Couldn’t Agree More – Hasta la Vista!!

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I was a die hard Mac User until the dark day that I switched to Wintel under pressure from my wife (bless!).

I have long categorized MS software under the “Almost Useful” heading but have become increagingly alienated. I thought PCs were suppose to be productivity aids? Hah! (LOL) I spend far too much time at work watching IE crash and ask me if I want to send an error report. Help used to be sourced from my copy of Office, now I’m directed online to the MS websit whether I like it or not!

IMHO MS have become a bunch of control freaks who want to ‘squirrel; around on my hard disk checking anything and everything I do. If they are indeed now going to tell me what I can and can’t do (or rather, exercise control secretively in the background) with my PC, I’m off to another OS. And to another ‘office’ solution.

My next PC will not be a Vista-based solution and there’ll be some debate with my wife, but a return to my beloved MAC platform is looking increasingly likely!

Any suggestions on viable alternatives for ‘office’ solutions, ones that will allow me to work with existing Word, Excel and PowerPoint docs?

MS have finally pushed me over the edge. Hasta la Vista? They won’t be seeing me again if I can help it…….

Try Open Office

In reply to Couldn’t Agree More – Hasta la Vista!!

I have been using that for nearly a year now and it has worked fine. It can read and save in ms-office file extensions. I have used the spreadsheet, word processing, and slide show applications and they all worked quite well with ms-office xp. The spreadsheet needed a bit of tweaking to exactly match the ms-office 97 file, but overall, I am happy with the Open Office software.

KDE also has a free office suite that supposedly does much the same thing, but I have not worked with it enough to verify this. It is bundled with a Mepis distro that I am evaluating on my home system.

glgruver

Thanks – I’ll try them out (last one to leave, turn out the lights at MS!)

In reply to Try Open Office

Thanks – I’ll check them out. Good to get some positive feedback on alternatives.

Given the dependency many people and organisations have on MS applications, I know it’s pure wishful thinking that MS might crumble or eat some humble pie, but the anti-trust actions against MS in both the US and Europe offer a few rays of hope in the darkness….

Vista Security- or should it be confusion?

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

Has anyone tried to take ownership of a folder in ‘Documents and Settings’ or tried to change permissions and security setting?
Say no more.
This OS is an Admins nightmare.
No compliments at this stage goes to Microsoft; but time will tell. I hope!

Games

In reply to Vista Security- or should it be confusion?

Why do I feel so hard done by with MS? Do I really expect more from them? I just read through this entire post and was nodding agreement to almost anything. I intend to stick with XP for as long as I can enforce it at work.

I actually like XP, it’s more stable than 98 and a bit prettier than 2k with a few more whiz-bangs added. My first thought about Vista and graphics shots I saw was ‘what a waste of processing power’. XP still makes fairly heafty demands on the system resouces, specially on older machines, which being a charity most of our machines are, which I think are just over the edge of reasonable, but Vista … ?!!! We’d have to buy a complete set of new PCs coz none of ours have the spec.

Home is another matter I like my games. Are there any alternative OS that will run PC (read Winows-based) games?

yes

In reply to Games

Linux provides excellent support for Windows games. Some games won’t work (yet), but many do, and some even perform notably better on Linux than on Windows.

The most basic case is that of using Wine for running games. It’s not all that easy to set up for someone new to it, however, so you may want to go with [url=http://www.transgaming.com]Cedega[/url]. For $5 a month, you can get regular updates to the software once it’s installed, and run pretty much every major Windows game on the market shortly after it’s released.

Ubuntu Linux

In reply to Vista Security- or should it be confusion?

You can teach an old dog new tricks. I’ll be 75
next birthday. Not too old to learn something new. Was fed up with MS long ago. Switchd to Ubuntu 13 months ago. Now use it on two home computers daily. Will never go back to MS products. Completely satisfied with Ubuntu. Come visit at:

http://www.imhdd.ms11.net/

yes, I just did…

In reply to Vista Security- or should it be confusion?

and it is not documents and settings in Vista, it is Users. No different than XP with the one warning that you have to have administrator privileges.

And your point is what?

I think a little perspective is in order here

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

At the risk of getting flamed here I think you people need to understand a thing or two about business.

First, I do not work at Microsoft. I do not know anyone who does. Second, I don’t like product activation either. I find it offensive that Microsoft assumes guilt with a legitimate customer such as myself.

However, I also understand their desire to protect their intellectual property and right to profit as a business. Though casual copying is a problem which they acknowledge as a reason for product activation, the real problem is in places like China, Russia and other countries where they can give a hoot about Microsoft’s rights as a company. Can you tell me how they’re supposed to prevent the millions of users in these places from pirating their software? Without some sort of product activation mechanism in ALL of their software, how exactly are they supposed to prevent this? Just like you don’t like the idea of someone stealing your friends car or CD’s or whatever, neither should you like the idea that someone is stealing their software.

But this is the problem. Many think it’s OK to steal software. It isn’t. Just because MS makes 120 million a day on their products doesn’t give ANYONE the right to rip them off. Period.

Microsoft’s tactics aren’t any different than any other Enterprise software and most home-based software products. Almost all vendors require some sort of activation. Because you’re dealing with the OS it seems rather heavy handed that MS can disable your entire system, but what else are they supposed to do? Say please don’t rip me off? Pretty please?

Frankly they should increase the grace period to 14 days and give the user a console to access their personal data in the event of a problem. Also, MS will, in just about every case, bend the rules if you call and explain the situation. I also think they should lighten up on what triggers reactivation. Perhaps not even minor hardware changes, but only upon a full re-install (hard drive change)?

There are 100’s of alternatives to MS products, some of which are excellent. Apple (although you have similar issues with them) and of course Linux — some really great choices like PC Linux and Ubuntu. If you don’t like product activation then I encourage you to try these. For many they’re a perfectly acceptable alternative.

Product activation sucks. No doubt, but it is Microsoft?s right. It’s your right to choose not to use their products, which some have done and that’s fine. But a little perspective is in order. Microsoft has the right to protect their property. If you can think of a better way I?m sure Microsoft is all ears.

The bottom line is the perspective

In reply to I think a little perspective is in order here

Sure, MS has the right to protect themselves, but the bottom line is that this latest garbage is going to drive a substantial chunk of their paying customer base away. In trying to protect their bottom line, they’re causing what appears to be significant collateral damage that will likely hurt their bottom line more than help it. Will they fly the whole thing right into the ground trying to protect their bottom line? It’s a slippery slope for sure.

I never thought I would consider a *nix OS, but they’re only getting stronger every month while MS is becoming more obnoxious every month making me think more than twice now.

You may be right

In reply to The bottom line is the perspective

I don’t disagree with you. Too many people, like the one who responded to my message with selective quoting, take this far too serious– as if it’s some sort of bizarre conspiracy for full Redmond Mind Control. Me thinks these people need to step back from the computer and read a book or go outside…

Ummm. I strongly disagree with you.

In reply to I think a little perspective is in order here

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I strongly disagree with your rosy description of Microsoft. There is nothing normal about Microsoft. They are a deviant convicted monopoly that defies everyone including governments. I don’t think you understand Microsoft at all. And, I don’t think you understand the dastardly business tactics they use. Now, they are mistreating their own customers. They think they are invulnerable.

The one who needs perspective is Microsoft. They clearly have insufficient understanding and concern about their own customers.

[b][i]”…I also understand their desire to protect their intellectual property and right to profit as a business…”[/i][/b]

No argument with that. My point in mentioning the huge profits they are already making is that they are not starving. It isn’t like they [u]need[/u] the money. So, I find it particularly offensive that in spite of huge profits that most COUNTRIES would kill to have, they are hurting legitimate customers in an effort to get more.

[b][i]”…Can you tell me how they’re supposed to prevent the millions of users in these places from pirating their software? Without some sort of product activation mechanism in ALL of their software, how exactly are they supposed to prevent this?…”[/i][/b]

This is Microsoft’s problem. And, how big of a problem can it really be if they make $18 BILLION in profit, on $44 BILLION sales, each year? This is the kind of piracy problem that most companies would LOVE to have.

I can live with product activation. It’s the capricious product DE-activation that is the last straw for me.

[b][i]”…Because you’re dealing with the OS it seems rather heavy handed that MS can disable your entire system, but what else are they supposed to do?…”[/i][/b]

It IS heavy handed. What should they do? They should not EVER deactivate a legitimate customer’s system. Not even one time. The fact that they put that code in there, and that it can be triggered by merely installing software, or a bug, or a hacker (trust me, that is coming), is completely unacceptable.

[b][i]”…But this is the problem. Many think it’s OK to steal software. It isn’t. Just because MS makes 120 million a day on their products doesn’t give ANYONE the right to rip them off. Period…”[/i][/b]

No disagreement about software piracy.

[b][i]”…Frankly they should increase the grace period to 14 days and give the user a console to access their personal data in the event of a problem. Also, MS will, in just about every case, bend the rules if you call and explain the situation. I also think they should lighten up on what triggers reactivation. Perhaps not even minor hardware changes, but only upon a full re-install (hard drive change)?…”[/i][/b]

These are all good suggestions. Any normal company would know not to hurt their own customers. Or threaten to sue them if they use Linux. Microsoft backing off now will not satisfy me. They are completely unpredictable and untrustable. And, Ballmer has disclosed that there is more restrictive WGA code sitting in wait that can be activated and has threatened to do so. They are out of control. Read: (1).

[b]Conclusion[/b]

There are lots of people like you who are willing to submit to Microsoft’s nonsense while you make them richer and richer. I understand. You are free to submit. I am free to not submit. And, I’ll try not to smile if your system is ever capriciously deactivated on you. 🙂

Take care.

—————————

(1) Ballmer blames pirates for poor Vista sales. Will crank up WGA.
http://www.techspot.com/news/24405-ballmer-says-buffing-up-wga-will-improve-vista-sales.html
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37721
http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/02/19/ballmer.blames.piracy/

Business 101

In reply to Ummm. I strongly disagree with you.

I have to wonder if you know anything at all about the business you?re supporting? I mean, do you understand the fundamentals of capitalism? Have you ever taken a business or economics course?

Deviant? Dastardly? Good god man! Nope, they?re just an aggressive capitalistic company ? the best, or one of the best at what they do (which ISN?T writing software code by the way).

No argument with that. My point in mentioning the huge profits they are already making is that they are not starving. It isn’t like they need the money. So, I find it particularly offensive that in spite of huge profits that most COUNTRIES would kill to have, they are hurting legitimate customers in an effort to get more.

The only thing in that above statement that isn?t from the manual of socialism 101 and has any legitimacy in the business world is your closing sentence. I won?t disagree except to say I?d add ?they are POTENTIALLY hurting legitimate customers.? This may be the case but the fact they profit more than most countries is a GOOD THING. Wake up pal ? this is AMERICA. And don?t forget how much of that money has ended up at the Gates Foundation ? more than the GDP of most of those same countries. ANOTHER GOOD THING that wouldn?t be possible if Microsoft wasn?t so damned profitable.

The rest of your rebuttal is clearly based on the fact that you can?t stand the fact that they?re a highly profitable company. My advice for you ? move to Sweden. Socialism may work there but doesn?t work on a large scale like the US.

Your closing statement is correct and that was my point all along. It?s only when people like yourself who are blinded by some crazy hatred of big bad Microsoft forget about the business facts. Ask your CIO ? maybe he or she can help educate you on how businesses are run in the United States and why they have to make the choices they do.

Orrrrrrrrr….?

In reply to Business 101

You could move to Redmond……so as to be close to your beloved.

Please! Stop! I can’t stand it! My sides hurt! :^0 :^0 :^0

In reply to Business 101

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You have a career on the stand up circuit if you ever want one! As I read your post, I could barely stay on my chair! What a funny guy you are!

Ok, let’s stop laughing for a minute. I’ll make some clarifications for you.

[b][i]”…they?re just an aggressive capitalistic company ? the best, or one of the best at what they do (which ISN?T writing software code by the way)…”[/i][/b]

Right. Microsoft is “just an aggressive capitalist company”. They just happen to be in the very rare club of those companies that have been convicted by the U.S. Govt. of violating antitrust law. They have paid many many billions of dollars in fines, penalties, and settlements because they violated the law. They have misappropriated intellectual property belonging to many other companies and lost many patent infringement lawsuits in court. They are constantly in court all around the world defending themselves, and they often lose. Yup! They’re the best!

You don’t have any f****** idea what you are talking about.

[b][i]”…I won?t disagree except to say I?d add ?they are POTENTIALLY hurting legitimate customers…”[/i][/b]

One: You better do your research before you repeat that. Real customers ARE having problems with WGA. And, it is outrageous that Ed Bott could merely install a game program and it triggered deactivation of the operating system with 3 days notice.

Two: Let’s see. The manufacturer makes their product with a bomb inside it. And, they assure customers that there are strict safeguards in the product. [u]The bomb will only explode if the product is ever stolen[/u]. Legitimate customers have nothing to worry about. And, this manufacturer has one of the worst product quality records in their industry.

Right. I am going to trust that company and buy that product. Are you out of your f****** mind?!!

I don’t care if Ed Bott is the only person on the face of the earth for whom the bomb has ever exploded. I will never buy a product with a “bomb” in it from a company like Microsoft. That is a mistake in judgment that I will never forgive.

[b][i]”…The only thing in that above statement that isn?t from the manual of socialism 101…”[/i][/b]

I’ll try it one more time, a little slower, just for you.

I advocate market capitalism and private enterprise, not socialism. The [u]only[/u] reason I mentioned the huge $18 BILLION annual profit, is to illustrate the incredible greed it must take to put “bombs” in Vista that can hurt legitimate customers so that Microsoft can make even more profit. That is all. I don’t care how much money Microsoft makes and would never presume to take it away from them to give to the poor people or any such thing.

[b][i]”…ANOTHER GOOD THING that wouldn?t be possible if Microsoft wasn?t so damned profitable…”[/i][/b]

You act as though the Earth would stop spinning if there were no Microsoft. Without Microsoft in the picture, there would be a great many other companies that would step up and provide software and services, countless jobs, profits, and shareholders. The world would be just fine, thank you very much.

[b][i]”…The rest of your rebuttal is clearly based on the fact that you can?t stand the fact that they?re a highly profitable company…”[/i][/b]

No. I don’t care if Microsoft makes $100 BILLION profit each year, so long as they do it ethically and within the law. My beef with Microsoft is the unethical and illegal business practices they use. That is all.

You should explain how great you think Microsoft is to the former stockholders of Netscape Communications who lost money because Microsoft broke the law and destroyed their company. And, when you do, choose an old widow whose pension fund was invested in Netscape. I’m sure you’ll get a lot of sympathy from her for how great you think Microsoft is.

And, don’t give me any socialist or liberal crap on this either because I am neither one. While her pension fund was “at risk” in the market just like everybody elses, hers was adversely affected by Microsoft’s [u]illegal[/u] conduct. That makes a difference to me, and it sure as hell should to you.

[b][i]”…And don?t forget how much of that money has ended up at the Gates Foundation…”[/i][/b]

Bill Gates does not get a pass from me because he is giving away billions of dollars now. I’ve watched Microsoft and Bill Gates with great interest for over 20 years now. As far as I am concerned, all those monies are tainted by the unethical and illegal business practices Microsoft used to make them.

I don’t expect you to agree.

[b]In closing[/b]

You go ahead and keep on admiring Microsoft. And, after 15 years, I am no longer going to use Windows and Microsoft software because the company is now putting “bombs” in their products that could easily “go off” even though I am a legitimate customer. Those “bombs” are going to be targeted by malware. Count on it. Microsoft is just not satisfied with “only” making $18 BILLION and “only” being one of the most profitable companies in the history of man. They have to put my operating system at risk to get more from the pirates.

Finally, if you choose to reply, I’ll expect you to use a properly respectful tone with me. You assume too much and have no f****** idea who you are speaking to.

You may like to know

In reply to Please! Stop! I can’t stand it! My sides hurt! :^0 :^0 :^0

WGA (Windows Genuine Advantage)
Has had to be patched because it was unable to install its self on some pc
Those lucky people could not update their computers until they received a fix
AND were told in some cases that the only solution was to reinstall windows

Doesn’t surprise me! Thanks!

In reply to You may like to know

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Reinstall Windows so you can impale yourself with WGA. Isn’t that special!

Thanks.

Like I said, Microsoft is a [i]DEVIANT[/i] company :0 :0 :0

In reply to Business 101

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Steve Ballmer, CEO, Microsoft Corporation #1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvsboPUjrGc

Steve Ballmer, CEO, Microsoft Corporation #2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSIMeRtVebM&mode=related&search=

Steve Ballmer, CEO, Microsoft Corporation #3

Yike!

In reply to Like I said, Microsoft is a [i]DEVIANT[/i] company :0 :0 :0

If those clips don’t turn you off M$, nothing will!

My CEO is [i]CRAZIER[/i] than your CEO??? :^0

In reply to Yike!

I have a bookmark to that video on my FIREFOX browser. A quick laugh in the middle of the day is only a click away! :^0

Very important “development”

In reply to Like I said, Microsoft is a [i]DEVIANT[/i] company :0 :0 :0

The world is in deep doo-doo until they get rid of this idiot.

Development

In reply to Very important “development”

OMG!!! I can`t stop laughing…can not type or see!!
This is a professional business?

TE is a socialist?

In reply to Business 101

LMAO.

The argument you are making for aggressive capitalisation could also be used to justify slavery, human trafficking, drug trafficking, child labour, employing illegal immigrants, organ farming, pollution dumping…..

These are all against our laws, MS have broken our laws and benefited financially from doing so, you wouldn’t be happy if it was the columbian mafia getting away with it, so why MS?

You do know that it was a standard for mob dons, to contribute heavily into charities. Not suggesting we should call Bill Capo Di Capo, but he could be doing it for much the same reasons, and because his income is ‘legal’ he gets to write off his tax as well.

Why should we pay to safeguard MS’s profits, the only possible reason for that to be to our benefit, is if MS were to drop their prices on successfully combating piracy.

If you believe that is going to happen I have a piece of land I want to sell you. Us socialists need spending money as well, you know.

No competition = captive market = monopoly. Monopolies are good for those who hold them, but bad for the market, so if you are in favour of the market (I being a true socialist am less enamoured of it), why are you in favour of a company that is damaging it.

Personally I think MS’s profits are obscene and should be curbed, I’d prefer to do that by sponsoring and supporting competition until the playing field levelled out, but if that alternative was precluded, then I would have no choice but to be everything you accused TechExec of.

It’s called ethics and doesn’t feature anywhere in Business 101.

Hear!! Hear!!

In reply to TE is a socialist?

Great reply, Tony!

Microsoft’s extreme profits are truly obscene and embarrassing to a capitalist like me who also has a conscience.

So Now You’re the Thought Police

In reply to Hear!! Hear!!

And you get to decide what is obscene and what isn’t?

For christsakes, the US Supreme Court couldn’t even decide on what is obscene (sexually) but you can decide on obscene (financially).

No. I get to…

In reply to So Now You’re the Thought Police

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No. I get to decide what “I” think is obscene, just like you and everybody else.

You’re making up a completely false allegation here. And, I think you’re intelligent enough to know that.

Obscenity is subjective and personal

In reply to So Now You’re the Thought Police

that’s why your supreme and every other court struggles with an objective or even communal subjective definition.

If they don’t struggle, emigrate immediately, you’ll be having your ears and nose cut off, or getting cremated while still alive.

… Must be the water

In reply to Business 101

… in the Sea-Tac area. That’s the only reason I can come up with to explain your “American” diatribe.

You may be enjoying the neo-dark-ages of the decline and fall of the almighty “dollar”, but you must really work at ignoring the facts and history of “American Big Business”.

Let’s look at something called, “The Big Three”, shall we? Or am I the only one old enough to remember that? Chevy (GM) Ford (FoMoCo) and Plymouth, Dogde, Desoto (Chrysler) of old pretty much ran the world around on wheels – or at least they thought so. Finally they became so big and powerful that they owned/controlled government(s).

Their arrogance grew with their profits and their power. Then people found that their products were not as well made as the “cheaper imports”, their products exploded in light impact situations, … and they ignored, and denied any wrong doing. They spent ever-increasing funds and energy on producing advertising (lying) and figured that quality in photos and copy and TV would surely make up for the shoddy products they insisted on continuing to produce.

Now – a few decades later – most cars on the roads – IN AMERICA – are imports; in fact, even the Fords, Chevy’s, and Chryslers are running with imported engines and power trains. Junk Bonds is what best describes the “Big Three”.

To justify belligerance and monopolistic hammering of the customer by linking it to some mythological “American Business Ideal” is just simple foolishness. I was born and raised in the Mid-West (Iowa), and I know better! The fact that I’m pushing 60 may account for my better memory of actual history over the rewritten versions casually forced upon us daily, but M$ is not learning from history, but like the greedy fools they have always been, are compelled to repeat it in devoted ignorance.

It is to our collective shame that the focus in “modern society and technology” is on the fear / growing concern that M$ could shut us down, rather than where the focus should always be: we buy a computer to use as a tool to do stuff and produce things; but we have degenerated to the point of blindly accepting that we should not expect M$ to actually work well, but dazzle us with pretty goodies until they are shut down because the arrogant rich don’t think they have made enough off the fools who buy their crap – by choice, design, or force.

C/PM worked, but it was killed. M$ lives on, … like a bloated cancer. Perhaps we should stop watching all the TV ads that hype the beauty of the cancerous lumps forming on the body politic and refocus on production and quality before those things are completely forgotten.

Sorry for the rant, but I’m tired of crap and force being justified as though it’s American and that makes it Sacred.

That was most excellent.

In reply to … Must be the water

Thanks for a thoughtful and well-reasoned bit of commentary. It’s nice to see people pipe up now and then with such a practical understanding of the way things work.

I am glad I did not drink it !

In reply to … Must be the water

Yeah I guess your right . . I am one of the people whom did not drink the MS water . . I have been leaning toward Linux of some version to get away from ever having to download updates EVERY TUESDAY . . I have Win 2000 Pro and will not add XP till SP 4 comes out and if I get the Linux going with all I want I will never touch MS again . .

I wish you people would stop using the very old argument

In reply to Business 101

The end justifies the means

Not the worst!

In reply to Ummm. I strongly disagree with you.

Come on, MS isn’t half as bad as the RIAA!

Not yet, but I see it coming :0

In reply to Not the worst!

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Ballmer has repeatedly threatened patent infringement lawsuits on Linux users and distributors. They are gearing up for it. You can be sure that if sufficiently large numbers of people switch to Linux, Microsoft will make the RIAA look tame by comparison.

I Seriously Doubt It

In reply to Not yet, but I see it coming :0

First off, too expensive.

Second, to much bad PR. A move like that would only make the situation worse for MS.

I can see lawsuits against larger distributors, but lawsuits against individual users? Put the potato down and and light a cigarette instead.

Companies, yes, large distributors, yes, individual users, never.

Clarification

In reply to I Seriously Doubt It

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By “Linux users”, I was referring to both businesses and individual users, not only the individual users. I agree it would be a PR nightmare…like say…WGA capricious DE-activation perhaps?

I think Microsoft is so arrogant, that they might surprise both of us.

rickk: Something else…

In reply to I Seriously Doubt It

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[b][i]”…First off, too expensive…”[/i][/b]

I don’t understand how you keep missing how things work. I would be embarrassed if I kept posting like you do. Of course, some people might be embarrassed if they posted like I do…but at least I usually don’t miss the big picture… 🙂

The main purpose of the RIAA lawsuits is not to recover monetary damages in a profitable way. The main purpose is to intimidate the hell out of millions if music pirates with a very few lawsuits. Each RIAA lawsuit that drives a family in a suburb to settle for $5000 because their 14 year old son downloaded some pirated music online will intimidate MANY other people to stop doing it, and to motivate parents to police their children better.

The exact same thing would work for Microsoft suing individual Linux users. It would not stop the Linux zealots, but it would have a very chilling effect on regular users who are Windows customers.

But, I wouldn’t do it if I ran Microsoft. They have already won. The smart move is to be benevolent now. If they keep it up as they have been, eventually they are going to motivate a sufficient backlash that it WILL hurt the bottom line.

They just pushed me too far with this WGA capricious DE-activation nonsense. And, I revered them at one time.

Cost is relative

In reply to I Seriously Doubt It

MS will do it if they think they can win
Or if they think it is costing them profit
The pr will be spun to show the great and wonderful Microsoft is fighting to save us from the evil from the forces of corruption
And how anyone doing this is a criminal or anarchist
No Evil doer is safe from mighty Microsoft champion of the people
It may even be a terrorist act

History

In reply to I think a little perspective is in order here

History has shown that copy protection schemes are ultimately crackable. Those who wish to steal, will find a way to do so( Hey, the only cost to them is time, and time they have).

So, here’s an idea, stop spending money developing copy protection schemes, which don’t stop the pirates, which increase the total cost of the final product, and which frequently create productivity loss for legitimate users. Then reduce the store price of the product, thereby reducing the profit margin for commercial pirates, making it a less interesting target for them and therefore a less pirated product.

I suspect they could do that without even touching their profit margin (which obviously, as a publicly trafed company, they have to cater to the investors. Such is the nature of the beast).

here’s some perspective

In reply to I think a little perspective is in order here

First: I agree with a central tenet of your post, 100%. Even though you only clearly mention it at the end, I figured I’d quote it at the top of my reply and respond to it, because it’s important that this is not lost in the noise of the rest of my response.

“[i]Product activation sucks. No doubt, but it is Microsoft?s right. It’s your right to choose not to use their products, which some have done and that’s fine.[/i]”
That’s absolutely true.

There is no reason in the world that Microsoft should not be allowed to use product activation schemes to attempt to prevent unauthorized copying. Whether or not that copying is ethical or legal is, in fact, completely irrelevant to that simple fact. Microsoft has a right to try to limit your use of its software, through technological means, any way it likes — as long as it doesn’t use violence, threat of violence, or fraud to do so. If it is up-front, honest, and straightforward about the operation of its software, you have no room to complain about its operation on any ethical grounds.

It still sucks, as you rightly point out. It’s still a very good reason to avoid Microsoft’s offerings, if “product activation” bothers you enough to seek out alternatives. It still devalues the software for us, the consumers, in everyday use. We would rather not deal with it, and to the extent that it is a disincentive to using MS software, we have every right to let it push us into using MS Windows less and less.

Boycotting MS software is a perfectly reasonable solution, if you find its product activation “features” that odious. I avoid MS software whenever at all practical, for this reason among others. Just as Microsoft has a right to impose these convenience costs on users of its software, its users have a right to abandon it like rats leaving a sinking ship when those convenience costs overcome the convenience opportunities associated with the software.

“[i]First, I do not work at Microsoft. I do not know anyone who does.[/i]”
I do. Very nice girl. Smart, creative, and good at what she does. That doesn’t alter my ability to see what Microsoft does for what it is, though.

“[i]However, I also understand their desire to protect their intellectual property and right to profit as a business.[/i]”
Microsoft doesn’t have any such right. It has a right to [b]pursue[/b] profit — nothing wrong with that. It doesn’t have a right to [b]actually[/b] profit. Only the success or failure of its business model can determine whether it profits. Rights don’t come into that part of it.

“[i]Can you tell me how they’re supposed to prevent the millions of users in these places from pirating their software?[/i]”
They can’t. That’s all there is to it. Ultimately, there’s no way to prevent “piracy”. All that stuff like product activation does is make things more difficult for people who follow Microsoft’s rules, and those who only violate Microsoft’s rules out of laziness (because product activation makes following the rules the more-lazy option). Product activation doesn’t prevent (nor does it even markedly slow down) “piracy”, though.

“[i]Just like you don’t like the idea of someone stealing your friends car or CD’s or whatever, neither should you like the idea that someone is stealing their software.[/i]”
That’s a broken analogy in a major way. If someone steals my friend’s CDs, my friend doesn’t have those CDs any longer. My friend doesn’t even have the music that was on them any longer, unless he violated the RIAA’s rules and made MP3s of them for his own use. When people “pirate” software, however, the creators of that software lose nothing. They claim that future profits are “lost”, but future profits aren’t anything they already possessed.

Legally and ethically speaking, software “piracy” isn’t theft. There’s no stealing going on. Theft is depriving someone of a possession, not copying something without permission. The law calls the latter “copyright infringement”, not theft. If you want to construct analogies to illustrate your points, you should be comparing apples to apples, or perhaps apples to oranges — and not apples to Buicks.

“[i]Many think it’s OK to steal software.[/i]”
Wrong! Many think it’s okay to infringe software copyright. That’s [b]not[/b] stealing. It’s copyright infringement. Please stop spreading the all too deceptive “piracy is stealing” meme. It leads to absurd misapprehensions about the effects of copyright infringement, the relation of it to property law, and so on.

“[i]Almost all vendors require some sort of activation. Because you’re dealing with the OS it seems rather heavy handed that MS can disable your entire system, but what else are they supposed to do? Say please don’t rip me off? Pretty please?[/i]”
Here’s an idea:

First, actually think about what you’re doing, and think about how effective it is on the whole. Second, think about how you might be introducing unintended, negative consequences by pursuing a particular means of trying to achieve those effects. Finally, think about whether the fact that you’re fighting an uphill, unwinnable battle against “piracy” might be a sign that your business model is [b]broken[/b]. Economic laws do not take the day off just because you want to use “product activation” — that’s a little like Congress trying to change the laws of nature by voting on a bill.

“[i]Also, MS will, in just about every case, bend the rules if you call and explain the situation.[/i]”
. . . which doesn’t solve all the potentially disastrous problems that might arise, such as simply being incommunicado when the damned thing decides to deactivate itself.

“[i]Microsoft has the right to protect their property. If you can think of a better way I?m sure Microsoft is all ears.[/i]”
Actually, it’s not. Microsoft doesn’t care to hear the harsh economic truths of the matter. Microsoft wants to keep things as close to the way they are as possible, and solving this problem would involve massive changes in the Microsoft business model. The first step would be to stop thinking of something as being Microsoft property [b]after it has been sold[/b]. Only by taking that step can you start to address the matter of “piracy” in a truly effective manner, because “piracy” is going to happen as long as you think of something you’ve already sold as your “property”, and there’s nothing you can do about it. Period.

uuhhmmmm…… bump?

In reply to here’s some perspective

couldn’t think of anything else to add.

chuck

Perfect!

In reply to here’s some perspective

That’s laying it on the line for him.

I second the motion and my dog thirds it.

So What’s Your Point?

In reply to I think a little perspective is in order here

The only thing you’ve said is you think Microsoft a nice guy and they have every right to stick it to their customers, under the guise of preventing “piracy”.

Answer if you can, how they managed to make hundreds of billions of dollars and become the biggest company in the world all the while millions of “pirates” were robbing them blind and walking all over them?

If I was making that much money, I wouldn’t care whether you called it piracy or what, i’d say give me some more of that wonderful stuff…….not trying to stamp it out and screw over all the people who made me filthy rich.

Microsoft are not the law

In reply to I think a little perspective is in order here

Most of us call the police when some one steals from us

How would you like it if the maker of the car that you drive
Asked you prove you owned it when ever they like
Also software is not the only thing copied in some of the countries you mentioned
The change from MS products is not easy
Why because MS has done all they can on both sides of the law to make sure people have no choice
The activation issue just shows their hypocrisy
Don?t steal our stuff
No it doesn?t matter where we got it
No it?s not our fault if you have no choice
No we will not take ANY responsibility
No we don?t care if all your software will only run on windows
No we don?t believe you paid for it until you prove it
And if you can?t prove it you can pay us now or we will throw you in jail
No you have no rights in this matter

By the way I refuse to take responsibility for contents of this post
The pc sent this all by its self or maybe it was the cat

Sorry about that had to chase it away
This post is all lies
It does not reflect the true opinion of the author
And that?s the short version

QQ

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

“But, with only 3 days, it is very possible I might. What about 3-day weekends?”

Last i checked, your computer has to be turned on for the 3(30) day activation timer to countdown. Otherwise it sits in a sort of stasis. If you can not find internet in 3 days, then you probably shouldn’t be using a copy of an OS that is not yours.

From reading your post and looking at your screenshot, I will take the intuitive leap and say you have never activated Vista to begin with.

So, let me ask you; Why should Microsoft allow you to do whatever you want with their software when you have not even purchased it, nor activated it? You are just pissed because you wanted a free OS and you are not getting one. QQ more, someone may care.

I have used Vista for a few months now (Business 1 month(beta), Ultimate 2 months)

All I ever hear is, “Woe is me!” “Down with Microsoft, up with (some obscure open source OS)!”

The reason a lot of open source OS’ do not have security issues is the rest of the world doesnt care about them. Why try to pick a fight with a bunch of computer geeks locked in their rooms preparing for an attack that will never happen? It is much easier to pick off the mindless masses that use mainstream software.

I am not a MS fan, but I also know that no matter how much people QQ, they are here to stay.

Some answers for you…

In reply to QQ

.
[b][i]”…Last i checked, your computer has to be turned on for the 3(30) day activation timer to countdown. Otherwise it sits in a sort of stasis. If you can not find internet in 3 days, then you probably shouldn’t be using a copy of an OS that is not yours…”[/i][/b]

I don’t care what it’s supposed to do or if it has a bug or whatever. I think it is completely unacceptable for a legitimate customer’s operating system to EVER self-deactivate. The code that does that should not be present in Vista. That is the only way to ensure it never happens. Microsoft surely knows this. So, they put that code in there, knowing that it would burn some legitimate customers, and they don’t give a damn. They care more about trying to suck even MORE money from people in China, India, and Russia.

BTW: The malware that deactivates Vista will surely be around the corner. That will be LOTS of fun.

[b][i]”…From reading your post and looking at your screenshot, I will take the intuitive leap and say you have never activated Vista to begin with.

So, let me ask you; Why should Microsoft allow you to do whatever you want with their software when you have not even purchased it, nor activated it? You are just pissed because you wanted a free OS and you are not getting one. QQ more, someone may care…”[/i][/b]

You are way off the mark and misread my post. Ed Bott of ZDNet is the one who found this, not me. Check the links in my original post.

Furthermore, if I were you, I’d be embarassed about making a wild accusation like that without having made certain of my facts. I don’t play computer games at all and never pirate software or music. Ever.

[b][i]”…I am not a MS fan, but I also know that no matter how much people QQ, they are here to stay…”[/i][/b]

I don’t care if Microsoft stays or goes. What they do no longer matters to me.

[b]Conclusion[/b]

I can see you are someone who has chosen to keep using Windows and running Microsoft products. That’s fine. And, you’re right that there are a lot of flaming anti-Microsoft people out there. I am not one of them. I have been using Windows since 1992 (and still am as I type this). I, like you, have put up with Microsoft’s nonsense up until now. I have simply had enough of it and am now going to take advantage of the alternatives that are now available. There has never been a better time to make a move like this.

I will try not to smile if your Vista system ever capriciously deactivates itself! 🙂

Take care!

some serious problems in your reasoning.

In reply to QQ

“[i]Last i checked, your computer has to be turned on for the 3(30) day activation timer to countdown. Otherwise it sits in a sort of stasis.[/i]”
Last I checked, [b]my[/b] work schedule doesn’t get put on hold just because [b]your[/b] business hours don’t match up with mine. Assuming you’re right about the way the countdown operates (big if, I think), that doesn’t help if I have to get a presentation or project done, or at least to a particular completion milestone, and end up having to work over that three-day weekend. Some systems can’t be shut down for a three day weekend, such as servers or systems running a build or rendering cycle (I guess you haven’t done much work in heavy graphics or development shops if that didn’t occur to you).

“[i]If you can not find internet in 3 days, then you probably shouldn’t be using a copy of an OS that is not yours.[/i]”
I guess you’re just falling back on the ol’ straw man with this one, and ignoring the simple fact that what TechExec2 described might easily refer to perfectly legal OS installs. Nice friggin’ job.

“[i]From reading your post and looking at your screenshot, I will take the intuitive leap and say you have never activated Vista to begin with.[/i]”
You’d be wrong. If I can tell this from the original post, you should be able to do so as well.

“[i]QQ[/i]”
Uh, what? I know what qq() means in Perl. I know, vaguely, about Tencent QQ, but that’s a noun and not a verb as you’re using it. What are you talking about?

“[i]The reason a lot of open source OS’ do not have security issues is the rest of the world doesnt care about them.[/i]”
[b]FALSE![/b] I gather you are a security idiot. You clearly don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. At a guess, I’d say you’ve never directly used an open source OS in your life on a desktop system or PC-compatible server of any kind. Even if you have, I’m pretty sure it wasn’t enough to really count for determining whether you have enough experience to say [b]anything at all[/b] relevant about them based on that experience. Read and learn about some of the realities of [url=http://articles.techrepublic.com.com/5100-10877-6064734.html][b]open source security[/b][/url]. That’s really just the social aspects of security as related to open source development, and doesn’t even touch on the direct architectural advantages of a unixlike system design over the broken, tightly coupled, crufty, integrated, monolithic design of Microsoft’s OSes.

The real reasons for Microsoft’s piss-poor security reputation are made clear in statistics like the time to patch vulnerabilities in some of its most popular software — the absolute [b]fastest[/b] time to patch a vulnerability for [b]any[/b] Microsoft software [b]ever[/b], for instance, is [b]longer than the normal patch turn-around time for Firefox[/b]. That’s a pretty bad record.

Musings

In reply to some serious problems in your reasoning.

You said: “Last I checked, my work schedule doesn’t get put on hold just because your business hours don’t match up with mine.”

Ok, the blatant offender that everyone is spewing about is a game… it has no reason to be on a business machine at your work. So, I really do not think you are taking a tract here that will do you any justice. Secondly, my reasoning for the 3/30 rule is I installed it on 2 machines on the same day. One I used everday, the other I used sporadically. when the 30 days were up on one, I looked at the less used one and it had 12 days left of usage. Hence, I am leaping to the conclusion that it is days actively used, not days since installed.

I will say, it is sad that this happens, but people should maybe point the finger at the game developer and not just Microsoft.

“”QQ”
Uh, what? I know what qq() means in Perl. I know, vaguely, about Tencent QQ, but that’s a noun and not a verb as you’re using it. What are you talking about?”

QQ mean cry more. That is all I see as the core of the OP, crying.

Open source systems?

They serve the purpose of spurring companies like MS to try new things, but you are correct in saying I do not spend time on them. I have more important work to do than stroking my ego by saying I spend all my free time trying to figure out a way do things any way but the MS way. I do run a few UNIX boxes, but that is it.

I agree MS has had craptastic service, support, and security. I choose not to let it get to me, as just about every major software vendor out there releases buggy software. I just take it as it is and roll with it.

Firefox… Does it work? Yes. Has it worked better than IE? Yes. Is it better than IE7? Debatable. I personally do not pay attention to the patching habits of Firefox developers as I quit using it because of its slower startup time. That may have improved lately, I do not know.

“no reason to be on a business machine”

In reply to Musings

You set your behind pretty high in the clouds to think you, or Microsoft, have the right to dictate what one can or cannot have on their computer, under any circumstance.
Just goes to show how flawed your reasoning (if any) is.
Microsoft may own you, but not everyone comes as cheap as you do.

insert clever and witty title here

In reply to Musings

“[i]Ok, the blatant offender that everyone is spewing about is a game… it has no reason to be on a business machine at your work.[/i]”
So what? Maybe next time it’ll be a word processor, a DBMS, or an IDE. The fact that the example application was a game in no way indicates that this can only happen with games.

“[i]I will say, it is sad that this happens, but people should maybe point the finger at the game developer and not just Microsoft.[/i]”
Say what? Now you claim that third-party application developers are to blame for the fact that Microsoft decided its OS should shut down sometimes based on what applications you install. That’s asinine. It’s the OS that causes the OS to shut down, not the third-party software. Third-party software should not destroy the OS’s functionality, directly or indirectly, temporarily or permanently. To the extent that it can do so, the OS designers have [b]failed[/b].

“[i]QQ mean cry more. That is all I see as the core of the OP, crying.[/i]”
I kinda figured that out from context, but — where did you get “QQ” as a term meaning to “cry” or “whine”?

“[i]They serve the purpose of spurring companies like MS to try new things, but you are correct in saying I do not spend time on them. I have more important work to do than stroking my ego by saying I spend all my free time trying to figure out a way do things any way but the MS way.[/i]”
Meanwhile, some of us have better things to do with our time than try to make MS software work properly when an open source unix system just keeps on working without problems, and enhances productivity (as compared with MS software) while it’s at it. You choose to save a little up-front time cost by not learning how to do things differently. I choose to save a whole lot of time cost further down the line by learning how to do things in a way that won’t slow me down nearly as much while I’m working.

My point, by the way, was that you were running off at the mouth about things that are beyond your experience and knowledge. Either learn about the subject, or stick a cork in it, unless you just want to look like — well, like someone who runs off at the mouth on subjects about which he knows [b]nothing[/b].

“[i]I agree MS has had craptastic service, support, and security. I choose not to let it get to me, as just about every major software vendor out there releases buggy software.[/i]”
Yeah, I try to keep it from bugging me, too. I do so by using software that doesn’t suffer the same frequency and magnitude of problems.

Sure, all software has issues, but when one piece of software has about one percent of the issues another has, you can probably guess what I choose to use.

“[i]I personally do not pay attention to the patching habits of Firefox developers as I quit using it because of its slower startup time.[/i]”
If you’re running a computer capable of making full use of Vista’s functionality, you have a computer on which Firefox should start up pretty much instantly.

I can understand having a problem with Firefox on something other than a modern MS Windows system because of startup time, but on any high-performance beast capable of running a modern MS Windows release at a level of performance above “dog slow”, you shouldn’t even notice the startup time for Firefox.

The real issue

In reply to insert clever and witty title here

Is that windows did not protect it’s self from an application
I guess all that hard work of MS was such a waste
And of all things a game?

Firefox

In reply to Musings

is an app
IE is part of windows
This is why Firefox has slower startup time
If firefox is faulty it can be removed
If IE is faulty you are stuck with it

If IE is faulty you are stuck with it

In reply to Firefox

I agree, not just that, MS forces the use of IE if windows is being used for updates.

IE7

In reply to Musings

“Firefox… Does it work? Yes. Has it worked better than IE? Yes. Is it better than IE7? Debatable.”

As for IE7 being better than anything, I think that is debatable… I had IE7, and it was problem after problem… the tabs would not close, the browser would close eventually but with an error.

I do not use it now, and wont use it. I use Opera. It may not be the best, but its better than IE7.

You are right, Don’t believe a word they are saying

In reply to QQ

These people who are critical of your reasoning are Linux zealots, not anything else. Linux and Unix have long had security problems from the ground up. Add in open source, and it’s a complete nightmare. Sure, they’ve tried to patch Linux, IBM has worked on it diligently. But its deeply flawed, and everyone knows it. Also, some people with distros like BSD will almost disavow any association with Linux.
I understand your reasoning. You are sick of the Vista whiners and so am I. I say let them go their way and laugh about it later.

holy cow

In reply to You are right, Don’t believe a word they are saying

That’s absurd. Are you completely buying all of Microsoft’s marketing and FUD without question? Are you delusional? Are you so invested in the money you’ve spent on software that you can’t admit the software in question isn’t the best thing since sliced bread, no matter what happens? Are you just a pathological liar?

I don’t think it’s any of those things. I think you’re just a troll.

Your post makes my point

In reply to holy cow

You can’t argue. I don’t work for Microsoft and I didn’t buy the software. I have no investment that way. I have invested time in learning about Microsoft’s products and a huge amount of time learning about Linux. I run a web server with Solaris 10 and Apache and I’m very familiar with opensource. I can also program Cisco routers from the command line. That’s where I’m coming from.
You on the other hand are such a Linux zealot that you are advising newbies to run Wine and play their games on Linux. What a hoot!
So, go back to your corner and whine away!

not even close

In reply to Your post makes my point

“[i]I can also program Cisco routers from the command line.[/i]”
Really? Program them? What programming language?

“[i]You on the other hand are such a Linux zealot[/i]”
Actually, I’m not anything like a Linux zealot. I don’t run Linux on my primary machine, and I’m planning to turn a server in my home (currently running Linux) into a desktop (not running Linux), because issues with Linux are starting to annoy me (and because I need the machine as a workstation). Try basing your accusations on facts rather than the assumption that you know me just because I disagree with you — or would, if you provided coherent, salient points for your arguments. Rather than disagreement, all that can apply to most of your statements is incredulity and distaste.

“[i]advising newbies to run Wine and play their games on Linux.[/i]”
That is patently false. I didn’t say “Run your games on Linux with Wine!” I just pointed out to people who were discussing games on Linux that it’s possible, and that using Cedega can make it easier than using Wine alone. In none of my posts here was I “advising” any “newbies” as you claim.

If you don’t know

In reply to not even close

about CLI on Cisco routers, I’m not going to explain it to you. Let another Cisco guy help you. It is true that I don’t have much patience with people giving lousy advice. I probably won’t be posting usually. But this thread was so full of nonsense that I got involved. The original post was so stupid on so many levels. People are posting here that have no first hand experience with Vista and evidently not much knowledge about Microsoft above a hobbyist level.
So, I’m done wasting words on you.

My point . . .

In reply to If you don’t know

. . . is that one can hardly call issuing commands at the Cisco IOS command line “programming”. You’re like these people who call putting together a simple webpage “programming”.

No brown stuff sherlock

In reply to If you don’t know

You want to try me?
Setting up cisco routers from the command line is as much programming as typing

del *.* at a dos or vms prompt (rm * for nix people :D)

Creating a script to run various commands on execution is programming though how complex depends on the language involved.

So along with your other ignorance, you don’t know what programming is either!

Apotheon has demonstrated his knowledge on many occasions, you have simply demonstrated your ignorance, so what value should I place on your opinions?

Don?t get them confused

In reply to If you don’t know

Configuring some piece of hardware and programming it are too very different things

Apotheon and others

In reply to If you don’t know

I know a little, would not say I am proficient, and I know I can certainly say some idiotic things at times… but I know this… I have read your posts, as well ghostbrowser, hal, te2, even TTM, as well as numerous others, and all show a great deal of knowledge on the subjects they speak about… it shows to me, thay have used both M$ a great deal and Linux or some other OS flavour.

It is blatantly obvious M$ made a mistake, and I am not going to buy it and use it. I used to like M$ products, but they are just not delivering, and when they do, it never works properly till an SP is out… That is unacceptable.

I wanted to change before, just never felt inspired or motivated enough to change… but this forum has certainly given me things to think about, and let me realise, that there are things better than M$.

Thanks people.

thanks, Shaun.G

In reply to If you don’t know

Thanks for the kind words, Shaun.G. It’s pretty obvious you know more about the subject at hand than this joker, too.

Curious?

In reply to not even close

What is the OS of your primary PC?

Why do you ask?

In reply to Curious?

[url=http://www.freebsd.org]FreeBSD[/url]. Why?

Just Curious

In reply to Curious?

I had forgotten and was just curious.

Use the proper terminology

In reply to Your post makes my point

[i]I can also program Cisco routers from the command line.[/i]

This is called c o n f i g u r a t i o n. In my experience, it is the accepted method for setting up Cisco equipment. Any reasonably accomplished network tech can do it (and even a few less-accomplished techs).

Ok, come on example

In reply to You are right, Don’t believe a word they are saying

tell me a linux a security fault due to it being open source.

Come on one will do. The tell me how they found it. Then tell me who fixed it, then tell me who made a profit out of letting it through.

What about linux is deeply flawed, it’s modular, by definition it can’t be deeply flawed, architecturally it’s almost flat, it’s a one molecule thick line compared to any version of windows.

In one paragraph you just demonstrated your ignorance for all to see, Owned by MS is at this moment cursing you for supporting him.

FYI I use windows almost exclusively, however I have on occasion used other OSes in multi platform environments. I’ve coded for them, I’ve administered them and implemented them, which is why I know you are spouting just as much rubbish as those linux zealots you would have us be.

Ubuntu and Thunderbird Mix

In reply to Ok, come on example

Nuff said.

Please cite references and provide details

In reply to Ubuntu and Thunderbird Mix

Just throwing out that comment does not make a point that anyone can believe or disbelieve. They’ll just ignore you.

No Problem

In reply to Please cite references and provide details

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-6164702.html

Just follow the links.

It is remotely executable and tests have been done with Red Hat and Thunderbird.

Sorry, I said Ubuntu.

Oh, and it also affects Firefox and SeaMonkey.

Thanks, but that is just a bug, not…

In reply to No Problem

.
Thanks, but that is just a bug, not a Linux architectural problem nor a weakness of open source. The guy who floated the claim said: “…Linux and Unix have long had security problems from the ground up. Add in open source, and it’s a complete nightmare…”. Tony is right. That is simply not true.

By the way. While both are important, I count “exploits in the wild” as more important than mere “vulnerabilities fixed”. This was merely the latter.

You’ll notice that there is more of the former attacking Windows and apps on Windows than on other platforms. I don’t see this so much as a security weakness of Windows/apps per se (although there is some of that), but rather the number of criminals who are attacking Windows. Either way, Windows “lives” in a bad neighborhood with lots of break-ins.

TechExec2, re: architecture vs. exploits vs. vulnerabilities vs. fixes

In reply to No Problem

You’re absolutely right — there’s a huge difference between architectural flaws and exploits or vulnerabilities. There’s more to it than that, too:

[b]Exploits[/b] are usually more of an indication of there being more security crackers focusing on your software than there are friendly developers helping find and fix vulnerabilities (as you sort-of indicate). This is common for Microsoft because there’s a very limited number of developers (it being proprietary software, so that open source developers can’t help find and fix vulnerabilities), but Microsoft’s software is very popular and widely used (thus attracting more malicious security crackers). Zero-day exploits in particular are an indication of security cracker activity.

[b]Vulnerabilities[/b] are found as a combination of the efforts of malicious security crackers and friendly developers, so a high number of known vulnerabilities indicates that there are a lot of security crackers targeting your software, a lot of friendly developers have access to your source code, or both.

[b]Rapid fixes[/b] indicate both many friendly developers and commitment to security. [b]Long fix times[/b] indicate some or all of the following:

1. The software is too complex and crufty to facilitate quick fixes.

2. Many of the discovered vulnerabilities are endemic to a poor software architecture.

3. There isn’t a sincere commitment to security.

4. The activity of malicious security crackers is overwhelming the number of friendly developers.

[b]Based on all of that[/b], compare exploit rates, frequency of zero-day exploits, and time to produce fixes, to get a really good idea of what sort of security value you’re getting for your software. Rate of vulnerability discovery is almost useless as a security metric, all by itself. Only in the context of a comprehensive understanding of the rest of the security-related factors, and an analysis of the source of vulnerability discovery, does rate of discovery actually amount to anything useful. Because proprietary software vendors — especially Microsoft — are so loath to disclose vulnerabilities, let alone their source, there’s really no simple way to come up with an effective comparison of security based on vulnerability discovery rates.

After all, depending on context, [b]a high rate of vulnerability discovery can mean either that the software sucks and is not secure of that it is improved quickly by its developers[/b]. It more likely means some combination of the two, to varying degrees.

It’s much easier to come up with a worthwhile analysis for open source software than for proprietary software, because open source project development tends to be much more transparent so that useful information can be gathered. Good luck coming up with something equivalent for proprietary software.

As a result, you have to fall back on comparisons of fix times and exploit rates to come up with any kind of meaningful security comparisons most of the time.

apotheon: Excellent post, great explanation, important information

In reply to No Problem

.
I completely agree. I’m glad you took the time to post this. The rest of the story is very important.

I once had a go-around with someone here over this, and the importance of measuring the amount of time at risk to unpatched known vulnerabilities and unpatched exploits in the wild (1). I’ll bet this person would be on your short list for such a thing: George Ou. It was another one of those famous pieces seeking to “…dispel the popular myth…”, about Firefox in this case.

Great post!

——————————

(1) Internet Explorer is more dangerous to use than Firefox
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=203307&messageID=2114815

re: my previous post’s points

In reply to No Problem

I learned that stuff through a lot of thought, a lot of experience, and a lot of work involving secure software and network design. In my experience, George Ou, Steven S. Warren, and rickk are among the most obstinately unwilling to keep such considerations in mind when attacking open source software or, by contrast, supporting MS software.

I get tired of repeating myself sometimes, but I try to keep up the business of dispelling FUD at every turn nonetheless.

In The Company of George Ou and Steven S. Warren?

In reply to No Problem

Well, OK then but you should use my real name then: Rick Kuhn 🙂

Other than that, I don’t mind being mentioned with George and Steven. Both are great guys. They may be insulted by being included with me though 🙂

However, the point here with you Apotheon and many others is that the hardware and software of a PC or network for that matter are relatively easy to secure no matter what OS you use.

The problem or hardest piece to control and secure is the end user. And I don’t care what OS you use, the end user is the weakest link. Period.

There’s that so-called “argument” again.

In reply to No Problem

When I was in the Army, I guarded ammunition holding areas (AHAs) on occasion. These AHAs were surrounded by fences, included structures with walls and locked doors, and razorwire atop the fences most of the time. The gates had guardhouses next to them.

The fact that the most difficult part of the whole system to secure was the guards themselves — the fact that one might be able to bluff past some guards by putting on a uniform with appropriate rank and unit insignia on it — in no way convinced anyone that they shouldn’t use fences, razorwire, or buildings with walls and locked doors.

By the same token, I prefer to use a system that doesn’t require so much work to secure reasonably well that I spend more time on that than on getting real work done (that’s called literary hyperbole — look it up if you’re going to object to this statement). Yes, the end user is the weak link — if there’s actually some reasonable security in place.

It’s possible to make the end user the strong link in the chain, by making the system so poorly secured that it’s actually worse than the end user. That seems to be what you’re advocating. I think that’s a really bad idea.

Very old Argument

In reply to No Problem

Back to the very old mine is better than yours because it has these faults are we?
Wish some people would grow up
An argument based on this app cause this fault in this os is stupid
It happens all to often

I can’t believe you typed

hardware and software of a PC or network for that matter are relatively easy to secure no matter what OS you use

Security flaws found in fix for Firefox, SeaMonkey

In reply to No Problem

Is the title and it sems to talk about, wait for it, Firefox 1.5.0.9 and 2.0.0.1, as well as in SeaMonkey 1.0.7. There seems to be no mention of Red Hat.

It further mentions about disabling Java, so how does this pertain to what Tony was saying initial to which you responded?

Well I just googled ubuntu thunderbird and security

In reply to Ubuntu and Thunderbird Mix

and got no hits!.
So no, not nuff said. 😀

There’s only one reason to mention open source being a security issue and that’s the dumbass argument that the bad guys can see the code, so they could deliberately introduce a weakness into a once ‘secure’ code base. Only someone who knows f’all about open source could come out with bollocks like that.

Don’t help this guy out, he isn’t worth it, he does every sensible argument you could make for your case a disservice.

Here

In reply to Well I just googled ubuntu thunderbird and security

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-6164702.html

Security flaws found in fix for Firefox, SeaMonkey

In reply to Here

As previously mentioned this does not give the information requested.

Well that’s a bug

In reply to Well I just googled ubuntu thunderbird and security

Doesn’t say it was introduced because the code was open source though. MS have made similar types of mistakes so it’s an example that proves nothing in terms of the FUD that open source is less secure than closed.

Thanks for the link though, no wonder I didn’t find it.

Ubuntu and Thunderbird are conspicuous by their absence.

Not Saying Open Source is Less Secure

In reply to Well that’s a bug

Just that it isn’t as secure as most think it is.

Wasn’t rebutting you

In reply to Well that’s a bug

just NoelRD who was talking completely out of his ass.

A secure pc is a powered down one in a safe, that’s been bricked over, before you got amnesia and forgot you hid it.

Open Source has the potential (often realised) to be more secure closed source. There’s no law that says the potential will be achieved though, and only the feeble minded would claim security has been achieved.

After all Tom Cruise could dig in the back of your safe and take the hard drive.

rickk, re: absolute vs. relative security

In reply to Well that’s a bug

I’m constantly annoyed by this pattern of discussion:

[b]foo –[/b] Linux is generally more secure than Windows.

[b]bar –[/b] No way, man, there’s no such thing as absolute security. Linux has vulnerabilities too.

In case you didn’t notice, [i]foo never said that Linux was totally, impenetrably secure[/i]. All foo said is that Linux tends to be [i]more secure[/i] than MS Windows.

Stop throwing that canard about absolute security in as your major “defense” of MS Windows security. When someone talks about relative security, [i]absolute security isn’t implied[/i].

Absolute Security…

In reply to Well that’s a bug

Absolute Security is possible, I think: every single person from the world would have to be removed.

This statement is dumb, but I think it says it all.

What about it?

In reply to Ubuntu and Thunderbird Mix

I keep hearing about how Linux is just as insecure as MS products, but I’ve yet to see the proof.

As a matter of fact, check the SANS Top 20…Gee, only one generic *nix “issue.” How many does MS have?

One example…

In reply to Ok, come on example

Tony, I sincerely doubt you will get one.

If You’re Not A Microsoft Fan

In reply to QQ

Why are you running your mouth about them?

Shoo fly.

In reply to If You’re Not A Microsoft Fan

To counter the plethora of ignorant hate speech that spews from the mouths of forum trolls like yourself.

Your ignorance

In reply to Shoo fly.

overshadows all the hate speech. Good work!

Trolls?

In reply to Shoo fly.

Hypocrisy.

Shot yourself in the foot there

In reply to QQ

Other OS’s don’t have security issues (not true) because of there low volume (not true)
vs it’s easier to pick on the mindless masses (far too true).

Now I personally wouldn’t call them mindless, not up to speed for the technical issues surrounding security, very true.

Windows is easier to attack to simply because it was designed to be more accessible so it would appeal to technical newbies. It got a bigger market share because it was more approachable, therefore more people got insecure software, so therefore the bad guys got more potential victims.

Vista is actually more secure and therefore less approachable than any other version of windows, you know this from all the whinging about incompatibilities, UAC etc.

To make the software more secure for technical novices, they had no option but nannying. That alone, tells you more about what’s gone on than anything else.

Windows security is more of a product issue, ‘nix security is more of an educational one.

Some Linux distros are becoming less secure ,though they start from a much better architectural base. Newer versions of windows have become more and more secure, though they start from a much much poorer architectural base.

Maybe one day windows will be as hard to attack as a ‘nix box, the keyword for those of us who use them is hard though no volume and not usable.

Security is always an approachability constraint, by definition.

Windows Vista user unfriendlynes

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

For the worl of me i will never understand why people are so eager to embrace anything that comes from Redmond Washington.
The first tipoff should have been the exagerated hardware requirements to just run the basic version.
Now i keep seeing , and hearing from users about all kind of other nonsense ,deactivation when you install software other than that supplied or installed at the point of the initial activation, Hardware changes, or upgrades other than those present at original activation. Thats enough to make me look for alternatives to Windows Vista, period.
as much as i dislike Mac OS machines because of their proprietariness in hardware and software approach they seem less intrusive,
and as a consequence more acceptable then they have ever been prior to the arrival of Vista.
It’s bizzare that the software engeniers at Microsoft are so ignorant to this problem that they keep designing software that’s so user unfriendly. ill stick with XP and then seek alternatives when needed.

They are not as proprietary as you think.

In reply to Windows Vista user unfriendlynes

Mac has changed alot. Look at the Hardware specs. You would be supprised to see the same hardware as an Wintel box.

Same processor, HD’s and RAM. It isn’t as difficult to find parts like it was 8-10 years ago.

Hasta La VISTA Baby!

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I played with Vista for awhile on a spare laptop I have here at the office. Unless and until the company mandates an upgrade to it I wouldn’t touch it with a 10-foot-pole on a production machine.

As for my personal equipment – NADA! Nyet! No way Jose’. I have paid for all the XP licenses on my personal equipment and that’s the last O/S software I plan to buy for some time.

This news about deactivation in 3 days is a pretty serious nail in that coffin.

-CB 🙂

Slow?

In reply to Hasta La VISTA Baby!

My god is it slow on your laptop
The first vista on a laptop I saw made me think it sould be illegal
The speed was blinding I all most fell asleep
Yes it was brand new no it was home 32 bit
That was for the TROLLS
ugly things that live under a bridge

Deliver what you promise

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I have been both a Mac user and a Wintel user since the early 80’s and 90’s (for the Mac) Steve Jobs can be arrogant but let me tell you he has been delivering what he promises. I run both Windows and the Mac operating system on my $500 Mac mini with no problems. Upgrading hardware or software is not an issue. Its time to stop being a slave to the great and wonderful “Gates.” Lets face it Bill has brought alot of good to computing but this time his greed is too much.

What was the title of the installed program that prompted reactivation?

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I’m afraid to “upgrade” to Vista because I don’t want a never-ending stream of problems… It looks like MS peaked at XP Pro. Pretty stable and doesn’t require a lot of activating and authorizing.

9Dragons?

In reply to What was the title of the installed program that prompted reactivation?

Ed Bott of ZDNet found this here (1). It appears the game is called “9Dragons”.

———————-

(1)
http://content.zdnet.com/2346-12354_22-56084.html

Upgrading

In reply to What was the title of the installed program that prompted reactivation?

>> I’m afraid to “upgrade” to Vista because I don’t want a never-ending stream of problems… It looks like MS peaked at XP Pro. Pretty stable and doesn’t require a lot of activating and authorizing. << That's pretty much how I view it right now. I've been using XP Pro since it came out and it really has been excellent. Everything works. I've been slow to upgrade in the past because I generally get my systems tweaked the way I want them - but this is the first time that I'm completely resistive to the idea of upgrading. I have 5 systems at the house all running either XP Pro or XP Home. Aside from the cost to upgrade all five of those licenses I just can't see the point of upgrading - absolutely everything I plug into these systems works with little or no fuss. I loaded Vista Ultimate onto a laptop system I have here at the office which is an expendable machine right now. Vista ran OK but after tinkering with it for a couple of weeks I was still at a loss as to why it's an upgrade. I understand that there will be a period while the drivers fill-in and some patches come out to correct things - but I just could not sell myself on why it was any better than XP Pro. I'm very likely to stay put on XP for a long time this time. I've been developing to Microsoft patforms since the early 80's - make a good living at it, too. Still ... as I said earlier this is the first time that I really don't see the new O/S as an upgrade path in any way. Aero? Who gives a rip? -CB

As you wrote in an earlier post…

In reply to Upgrading

you were “playing around with it”. Also, the problem with the activation window was not the game as much as the technology and method of installation that caused the problem.

To secure Vista properly requires preventing users from installing programs that require root access on the system with administrator privileges. And companies that write software should stop using installations that require that level of authorization to install.

With UAC, it is a heads up that a poorly written piece of software is trying to go where no mear user should be going, or malware for that matter. Should you decide to install a poorly written software program after UAC has warned you, then you deserve to jump through hoops.

The public can’t have it both ways. You cannot expect an OS to survive if every piece of junk is writing to an area that should be sacrosanc. Mac doesn’t allow it, Linux or Unix doesn’t allow it, nor should MS allow it.

Cry about your freedom of choice because it is yours, but don’t blame the company or its product if you violate the inner sanctum.

However, *nix is graceful about it…

In reply to As you wrote in an earlier post…

MS just kludged on UAC to make it look like they cared about security.

Now there I agree with you

In reply to As you wrote in an earlier post…

The added security is not a reason to whinge, that fact that a lot of software including MS’s requires some fixing in order to cope with it is not a reason to whinge. Though it would have been nice if more of that had been done, before they started arm twisting.

The price is, the hardware requirements are, the continuance of a feeble witted monolithic architecture is, DRM is and being deactivated because you installed a piece of 3rd party software most definitely is.

The thing that amazes me is after they dropped almost every change in longhorn that would benefit business, they the market it to us an a productivity improvement worth the price of the ‘upgrade’. So not true, it borders on a soundbyte from Al Gore.

Application Developer?

In reply to Upgrading

That’s what your profile says.

Anyways, depending on what types of apps you develop, if you don’t see the advantages of moving to Vista as far as application development goes, it’s time to retire buddy.

It a hell of a lot more than just Aero. Go out and educate yourself for once.

There is no sustainable advantage to developing apps for Vista! :^0

In reply to Application Developer?

.
One: Technically-speaking, Vista doesn’t do anything important that XP, or other platforms (Linux, Mac) cannot do.

Two: There is an upgrade surge with Vista that ALL Windows ISVs should take advantage of, yes. But…

Three: If you develop commercial apps for Windows, your business is not going to thrive the way it should and it is going to die a premature death. See (1).

Microsoft does not allow ISVs for Windows to grow and thrive in the global market for software. Period. Anybody who is still around, is suffering and not being allowed to grow the way Microsoft is allowed to grow, and have hundreds of millions of paying customers.

———————-

(1)
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=212977&messageID=2187758

Yes and no

In reply to There is no sustainable advantage to developing apps for Vista! :^0

MS have tried to compete with my firm and failed miserably. All they did was annoy the hell out of their ‘partner’ for trying and make us laugh our asses off at the feeble attempt they made.

Anyone who tries to out windows windows is indeed doomed.

Your fooling yourself

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

Even if you refuse to use Vista, the day will come that Vista will be the only safe O/S supported with regular updates. Time will catch up to you. Oh, and enjoy your Mac.

Between now and then…

In reply to Your fooling yourself

Between now and then I will be using a much safer computer and won’t have to deal with the 114,000 viruses and other malware that are attacking Windows anymore.

Touch? ]:)

P.S. My reason for switching has nothing to do with security or safety.

Time Is The Boss In This Case

In reply to Your fooling yourself

And only time will tell…..not you….and most certainly not Microsoft.

The Vista “whiners” welcome you

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

Go ahead and whine away. The rest of us will work out the problems. Use Ubuntu, it might work if you are lucky. Or use OpenOffice, but try not to fall asleep waiting for it to open. Call Microsoft bad names, just like everyone used to call IBM. Brag about how important you are – whiners really appreciate that. Oh, I forgot the main thing – give half truths about everything, like; linux is great, Vista is bad, etc.

Again, welcome

I’m not whining. I’m leaving.

In reply to The Vista “whiners” welcome you

.
[b][i]”…Go ahead and whine away…”[/i][/b]

If you noticed, I’m not whining. I’m leaving.

[b][i]”…The rest of us will work out the problems…”[/i][/b]

Only fools of the highest order would ever PAY their own money to help Microsoft work out Microsoft’s own product problems. It is truly stunning that Microsoft can work for five (5) years, spending billions of dollars, and STILL release Vista in such poor condition and without great ISV and IHV support. The very short list of approved certified applications is pathetic.

[b][i]”…Or use OpenOffice, but try not to fall asleep waiting for it to open…”[/i][/b]

Get a faster computer. It’s not a problem for me at all.

[b][i]”…Call Microsoft bad names…”[/i][/b]

No company I can think of has done more to deserve being disliked. Companies that run around threatening to sue their own customers are begging for it. And, that is but one example out of many.

[b][i]”…Brag about how important you are…”[/i][/b]

Where did I do that exactly?

[b][i]”…Oh, I forgot the main thing – give half truths about everything…”[/i][/b]

Name one half-truth I gave.

I think you are mischaracterizing me as a Linux Zealot. I’m really a disgruntled Microsoft Zealot who has just decided to refuse to upgrade to Vista. Of course, that means leaving Windows too. XP won’t last forever.

[b]Suggestion for you[/b]

I can see that you have your personal identity and self-esteem intertwined with Microsoft’s glowing orb of success. I used to be where you are, about 15 years ago, and I understand that. I can tell you from personal experience that it is a losing place to be. Microsoft is a winner to be sure. But, everyone outside a small elite within Microsoft are really kidding themselves. In fact, most of the 71,000 Microsoft employees are not ever going to come close to becoming one of the “Microsoft Millionaires”. That party is O-V-E-R. Checked MSFT stock lately? Flat for over 5 years. People outside of Microsoft are just pawns in Microsoft’s game and they will be sacrificed without a second thought whenever they choose. The long list of dead Microsoft “partners” is proof of that.

So, my advice is for you to make a serious review of yourself. Chart your own course and stop blindly following Microsoft. They are leading you astray.

Good luck.

This is similar

In reply to I’m not whining. I’m leaving.

to what is happening to broadcast free to air TV networks.
The advertising got so annoying that they lost most of their viewers to cable/pay TV
And now are complaining about advertising revenues dropping
They also thought they were invincible
A lot like MS

Ironic that your brought up IBM

In reply to The Vista “whiners” welcome you

See, IBM tried to do the same thing that MS is doing now…only this was back in the 80’s. So guess what happened…IBM went bankrupt and had to rethink their whole strategy.

Perhaps, MS will learn from this fiasco, and actually build and OS that consumers want.

Now THERE is a man who knows and understands history!

In reply to Ironic that your brought up IBM

.
Exactamundo!

Microsoft is in that place where IBM was just before it began to fall. Overconfidence and arrogance. Making big plans to grow to a much larger size through business model extension. Lots of unhappy customers. And, most importantly, a nimble new competitor looming.

For IBM it was Microsoft.

For Microsoft it is Linux.

We’ll see. Nothing is certain.

Dear whiner, IBM was never bankrupt

In reply to Ironic that your brought up IBM

Another half truth. Its former CEO liked to brag about how he brought IBM from the brink of bankruptcy. Maybe, that’s what you’re thinking about.

pedantry vs. reasoned argument

In reply to Dear whiner, IBM was never bankrupt

Nice how you attack him on pedantic grounds rather than actually addressing the point.

Dear new whiner

In reply to pedantry vs. reasoned argument

The man said he knew IBM history. He didn’t.

I can tell

In reply to Dear new whiner

He knows a hell of a lot more than you.

more fun

In reply to Dear new whiner

You attacked me with an insult, then attacked him with pedantry [b]again[/b]. Your track record is becoming well established.

Whining

In reply to Dear new whiner

Seems you are guilty of whining here yourself.

IBM goes bankrupt

In reply to Dear whiner, IBM was never bankrupt

Its not much, but its does say IBM was bankrupt http://www.cs.earlham.edu/courses/cs80/1995/cgi-bin/

Is that why OS/2 went by the side ?

In reply to Ironic that your brought up IBM

As they just up and DUMPED what was a VERY GOOD OS and would have replaced MS as a OS for computers . . It had a following and it was not just geeks either . . They even had clubs and meeting places to spread the use of OS/2 here in Phoenix I had from the first version to the last OS/2 Warp Version 4 did stuff Windows never thought of and took years for windows to get it into their OS and its still not good ! HPFS was a good file system compared to Windows file system . .

OS/2 Warp: An era gone…

In reply to Is that why OS/2 went by the side ?

I was at a demonstration of OS/2 warp and alongside they had a Windows variant, I think at the time it was NT4, but I could be wrong on that… However, they performed the similar tasks on both systems, and OS/2 was always better… and the windows variant crashed on somethings that was being done. It was a while back so do not remember many details.

However, there was a drawback… that there were not many software retailers writing software for OS/2 and the demonstrater was very honest, and said that perhaps OS/2 may have similar issues to windows if there were as many applications for it as there were for windows.

Now bear in mind, though I have ued windows and know enough to get around it, I do not know the truth of the statement that was made, nor the accuracy. However, they did say it was more stable than Windows. I never used it, I do not know.

If others have ideas on it.. please feel free to speak on them 🙂

I was one of the OS/2 People !

In reply to OS/2 Warp: An era gone…

It had windows 3.11 as the other side of its ability to run stuff ( was a Icon on the desk top ) I held on to the Boxes of Software for a long time think it was 2 years ago I finally gave them up to the libaray to use “Even” the OS/2 version Warp 4.0 went waaaaaaaaaaaaaa 🙁
The only reason OS/2 died is windows refused to share the code for Windows 95 or 98 . . Or OS/2 would have been the OS of today and RULED the PC world . . And we would not be picking on MS so much . . Oh well ! 😉

WOW!!!!!

In reply to The Vista “whiners” welcome you

The first Vista supporter I’ve seen (read?) since Vista was announced. was starting to think there were none. lol

“give half truths”

In reply to The Vista “whiners” welcome you

Better than a pack of lies about how “good” the object of your Micro-luv is.

I agree 100%

In reply to The Vista “whiners” welcome you

You are so right… It seems they have their own agenda for doing this. Stating half truths as justification for their hate. Kind of what all prejudice people do.

Prejudice is, as the name implies, the process of “pre-judging” a particular thing for the way it acts,looks,or even a group it is involved in. It implies coming to a judgment on a subject before learning where the preponderance of evidence actually lies, or forming a judgment without direct experience.

That does not apply to me

In reply to I agree 100%

I am a disgruntled Microsoft user (15 years), not a Linux zealot with an agenda.

I’m switching away from Windows because of the capricious self-deactivation code that exists in Vista. Since I have to go somewhere, it is ending up being Linux (and Macintosh). But, Linux is actually a good place to go to these days.

I simply find it unacceptable to use Vista. It ships with a “bomb” in it that can go off, even though I am a legitimate customer.

Check out the links in my original post for information about how the Vista system got deactivated.

It’s perfectly OK for you or anyone else to user Vista if you want. I’m not trying to convert anyone.

Take care…

See my other post where..

In reply to That does not apply to me

I pointed out that it was user error, not MS trying to hose the person with bad software.

For all of you experts out there, let’s make this clear. If attempting to install a program pops up UAC and informs you that the program requires administrator privileges to install to root and you accept, then it is on your head. Period.

You wouldn’t install to the root on Linux, or Unix, or Mac, or any other secure OS. You have been warned.

If you must, please check out the company and their support for Vista before you do. Quickbooks is a perfect example of a lazy, won’t spend money to fix a problem company that refused to correct writing to the OS areas that were known to be susceptible to exploitation. And once MS locked it down in Vista so they couldn’t then the fit hit the sham and they had to rewrite their 2007 version.

Yes, but . . .

In reply to See my other post where..

While I can understand the position that installing a piece of software that doesn’t behave itself is your own fault, I don’t understand the position that this should cause [b]legal[/b] problems. That’s really the crux of the matter.

It’s not that the operating system is broken by the software — it’s that Microsoft has decided that you’re [b]not allowed to use the OS[/b] any longer, unless you beg for the privilege.

. . . and as I’ve pointed out elsewhere, Microsoft has a right to cripple the software it sells any way it likes, but I have the right to think that’s a really crappy way to build software.

Agree with your point…

In reply to Yes, but . . .

But once again, when companies write software that imitates an attempt to circumvent anti=piracy features, who should be taken to task? MS for including anti-piracy features, or the numbnuts that should know better before selling software that is poorly written.

Once again, I see your point about how the OS appears to make criminals out of people when this happens but…

Everyone go out and buy an automobile with anti-theft devices and tracking device. If this stuff goes off while you are operating it due to cruddy equipment attached to your auto, do you blame the car maker or do you blame the company that made the security device. If you get pulled over by the law enforcement, they are going to assume that you are driving a stolen car until you prove otherwise. Just a little bit of contortted logic for you.

WIndows LoJack?

In reply to Agree with your point…

But how often have you had your LoJack offer up the blue screen of death? I’ve been driving LoJack equipped cars for about 15 years without a problem. I couldn’t run any windows OS for 15 days without one.

Why not both?

In reply to Agree with your point…

“[i]when companies write software that imitates an attempt to circumvent anti=piracy features, who should be taken to task? MS for including anti-piracy features, or the numbnuts that should know better before selling software that is poorly written.[/i]”
Both — when those “anti-piracy features” result in reduced quality of software and user experience.

“[i]Everyone go out and buy an automobile with anti-theft devices and tracking device. If this stuff goes off while you are operating it due to cruddy equipment attached to your auto, do you blame the car maker or do you blame the company that made the security device.[/i]”
Both.

Amen, brother

In reply to I agree 100%

Nice to have some sense in here.

That’s interesting . . .

In reply to I agree 100%

. . . considering that the Vista-defenders in this thread tend to be issuing strident complaints about how evil the Linux advocates are, and have never (or barely) touched Linux, while the Linux advocates tend to be people who use MS Windows at work and Linux at home, or who use both MS Windows and Linux at work and/or at home, or (like me) who originally built a career on MS Windows, branched out into Linux, found Linux more productivity-enhancing (and secure, and stable, and so on), started using it at home, and eventually discovered that FreeBSD provided even better advantages than Linux. (That was a vast oversimplification of my experience with various OSes, but it should get the point across for now.)

I probably know more about MS Windows architecture than nine out of ten MS-centric professionals here at TR, thanks to my long history of working with it. Prejudging? No, I’m post-judging, based on long experience — not only with MS Windows, but with a number of alternatives as well.

Speaking of prejudice — how much experience do [b]you[/b] have with Linux?

Yup..

In reply to That’s interesting . . .

Here’s one.

One what?

In reply to Yup..

“[i]Here’s one.[/i]”
One what?

Have experience with Linux

In reply to One what?

Sorry about confusing you.

No problem.

In reply to Have experience with Linux

Context was ambiguous, so I asked what you meant.

edit: By the way, I guess I’m not surprised. While I disagree with some of what you say, I find that the way you construct arguments and the points you make tend to be much more reasonable than the way people like rickk, MS Owns You, and (probably worst of all — a tough title to earn against competition like rickk) noelrd, even if you’re kinda on the same side of the fence.

You have my sympathies. I know what it’s like to have people nominally on my side of a debate constantly undermining my position by being wankers.

I would bet that…

In reply to That’s interesting . . .

…at least some of the people trashing Linux on this thread work for MS. I’ve been in this business for 30 years (more actually, and part of that time as a journalist). One of the constants in that time is that MS plants people in fora like this to back their products whether or not the products are worth a damn. So, boys and girls, it is up to the Vista-philes here to prove their bonafides. Otherwise, or even not, I think the practices of MS, its user hostile approach, and the weaknesses of Vista versus the strengths of Linux speak for themselves.

Dude, You’re Paranoid

In reply to I would bet that…

Conspiracy theories. Nice!

Theory, my left foot.

In reply to Dude, You’re Paranoid

Have you heard the term “astroturfing”? It refers to a fake grass-roots movement, typically created by a corporation or political organization paying people to pretend to be independent parties lending “popular support”.

In 2001, a landslide of letters were sent to mass media news outlets expressing disgust with the US DOJ’s antitrust suit against Microsoft. It was discovered that:

A) the letters were almost identical

B) some letters were sent from nonexistent addresses

C) some letters were sent by deceased people

The Los Angeles Times reported on this, and discovered that “Americans for Technology Leadership” was behind it all. Microsoft is one of the founding members of the ATL — and by far the most politically and financially powerful of them.

Astroturfing was traced back to the “Freedom to Innovate Network”, whose website is on Microsoft servers.

links:
[url=http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2001-08-23-microsoft-letters.htm]USA Today[/url]
[url=http://www.newsfactor.com/perl/story/13046.html]NewsFactor Network[/url]
[url=http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/871631]InternetNews.com[/url]

edit:
Of course, I doubt that Microsoft is actually paying any of the people in [b]this[/b] discussion. I suspect these little tangles on TR are beneath Microsoft’s radar.

Oh I dunno

In reply to Theory, my left foot.

How else do you explain Steve Warren. 😀

Mind you he tends to stay out of this sort of thing and good old George had been slating MS to the point where nix.zealots.org are quoting him as a source.
Not saying either are or were paid by MS, but they probably deserved to be.

Good point . . .

In reply to Theory, my left foot.

. . . but I still have my doubts.

I’m pretty sure that George Ou would be in trouble with his bosses at CNET if he was taking money on the side from Microsoft to be an MS mouthpiece on TR and other CNET sites. I’m pretty sure that, as inept as Steve Warren is at sounding like a professional who actually knows anything, Microsoft would fire his butt if he was actually being paid for this sort of thing.

So, no . . . I still don’t think people are getting paid (directly, at least) to astroturf here.

I’ve been wrong about one or two things in my life, though, and this one has a relatively high possibility of being wrong.

Prejudice?

In reply to I agree 100%

or do they know better
How many times do you have to be burnt
before you stop sticking your hand in the fire

How many times do you have to be burnt

In reply to Prejudice?

If they do not understand they are being burnt – a very long time, I think.

Prejudice

In reply to I agree 100%

tyler70006@… you have the definition down pat “Prejudice…implies coming to a judgment on a subject before learning where the preponderance of evidence actually lies, or forming a judgment without direct experience.” Now apply it to your situation, and to every MS user that has not had experience of any other OS and then decries those OS’s… then refers to people who know what they are talking about as whiners or linux zealots. I think that some re-evaluation is required here.

The errr so-called whiners and or linux zealots (as they have been called) seem to know more about their subjects (MS Windows and alternative OS’s) than the ones making these claims.

Further that when terms like prejudice, zealots or whiners are used, it seems to me that is is ad hominem, and not directed at the arguments. If you want to discredit or show that their arguments are wrong or incorrect, do so, but back it up, in a logical ethical way showing integrity, but I doubt you are able to do this.

EDIT: Correction to HTML coding

Hmmm, BILL shoudn’t have billed us that way

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

The information of Windows VISTA not working when certain changes are detected by it is purely devastating for people like me who are Microsoft fans. Really Bill should have some other way out to “Bill” the cheaters, not that way which could hurt normal and genuine users.

Over-reaction, me thinks

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

While this article was interesting reading, the facts are:

1) a fix is out for this issue. Go here: http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;931573

2) in the case of Ed Bott’s game it was a game-protection piece of software nGameGuard that caused the issue. Contacting the game producer to update their version of this piece of software fixes the issue.

3) there aren’t random or indiscriminate times when the “deactivation” occurs. Something triggers this event and some research will uncover it.

4) if something changes a system setting I’d want to know about it. In this case a setting changed that could cause many more problems than windows stopping. You can contact MS via phone to restart the system if it stopped working AND you don’t lose your data.

5) The reality is that MS software is some of the most pirated in the world and activation while a bit painful isn’t that big of deal when you consider the business side. Those who have the biggest gripes are those who can’t install one copy on multiple computers like the “old days”

It’s interesting that Ed Bott didn’t include an update about the fixes and that his game triggered the event and that contacting the game producer to update the game guard would fix this. Alas, throw gas on the fire and then walk away I guess.

The ‘fix’ was mentioned

In reply to Over-reaction, me thinks

Strangely enough, when I read the article(s) about this issue, I also learned of the fixes, and how they work. Perhaps a re-read?

As to the piracy problem – it has grown very large, indeed – caused by the over-pricing of what SHOULD be a easy ‘commodity’ to afford. Win 3.1 was little pirated – but then again you could afford to buy it -even if you were a ‘weenie pirate’ type.

IF the big problem is in foreign markets, it should have been easy enough to put these restrictions (and de-activation possibilities) in the versions that use the language of the affected areas – without penalizing the millions who DO pay for the software.

It took me until ’02 to move to XP, because of the ludicrous tying of an os to a particular machine – or even to a particular configuration of that machine. I moved only when it became clear that a) they fixed most of the worst problems with SP2 and b) that they were not going after people for motherboard changes after all.

Microsoft weathered all the complaints about this kind of thing last time, so naturally they are trying for even more – we seem to put up with it!

Yes, I made the switch to Linux recently, and if I see Vista it will be on a work machine that isn’t on something sensible, like 2000, *nix, or even NT 4….

Why do the inadequate/inferior systems always seem to win out in the marketplace? VHS/Beta, Windows over Mac/Amiga, Intel vs Motorola….

as for me i will wait for sp1

In reply to The ‘fix’ was mentioned

As for me i will wait for vista sp1 to come out before upgrading but to say i will change jobs because i don’t want nothing to do with windows vista give me a break as much as you love it or hate it windows vista is here to stay and all the whining and crying is not going to change that fact

I’m in school at this point learning the In’s and outs of vista because as we replace our work stations they will have vista on them and if you work in the support Field you will need to know this OS because like it or not after the computers with xp installed are gone it’s going to be hard to find them and you are going to have to support windows vista

change is all ways hard but it’s here and we as IT professionals we have to change with it

[i]NO VISTA[/i] for me or my company

In reply to as for me i will wait for sp1

.
I would not change jobs to avoid Vista either.

You are correct. Vista is the new Windows OS and many people and businesses will upgrade to it. Many will not. I will not and my company will not. The truth is, nobody has to upgrade to Vista. Nobody. It’s strictly a matter of choice.

And, this is not about avoiding change. There is going to be a change alright. But, it will be to Linux and to Macintosh, not to Vista.

P.S. I can understand that you would have to accept running Vista in Vista, CA!! :^0

Ohh, what is the name of your company,,,,,

In reply to [i]NO VISTA[/i] for me or my company

and how long have you owned it? How may people do you employe, and are you a sole-proprietorship, an LLC, a Corporation, or maybe a partnership?

As an owner, it must be hard making all of the aquisition decisions, technology implementation plans, and so on…

Ohh, what is the name of your psychiatrist…

In reply to Ohh, what is the name of your company,,,,,

.
and how many years have you been seeing him? How much lithium do you take? Have you tried Thorazine? Clozapine?

As a psychotic, it must be difficult to behave politely with people you have never met before, and so on…

TE2

In reply to Ohh, what is the name of your psychiatrist…

Do you own a company out if interest. If not how do you plan to stop your big wigs wanting to implement Vista – they get what they want!

TM

In reply to Ohh, what is the name of your psychiatrist…

.
I’m in a position to control whether my company moves to Vista or not.

In a large corporation, if you are not the decision-maker, you’ll just have to accept what they decide.

You know, I expect the problems in Vista to be worked out in time. The bugs in the operating system will be fixed. The driver problems will be fixed. The application compatibility problems will be resolved. All of this will take about a year to really get there (to about where Windows XP is now). I was planning to upgrade to Vista in about a year. But then Ed Bott’s article appeared and it was the last straw for me.

This WGA DE-activation nonsense will still be there. You know, they are going to put Vista-style WGA DE-activation into Windows XP in SP3! I’ve had a problem with Microsoft for a while but it has never been enough. Now it is. I simply choose to not engage with Microsoft on this WGA nonsense. I hate waiting on hold to speak to someone in Bangalore. I won’t do it. There is no reason to. Linux is a really good platform today, and it will be even better next year.

Upgrading to Vista is not without cost: Vista itself, upgraded or replacement hardware, application upgrades. Hundreds of dollars per seat with no value added whatsoever. Is anyone on your staff going to be more productive on Vista vs. XP? If you’re going to change platforms, NOW is the best time there has ever been.

Furthermore, I am sick and tired of this nonsense with Microsoft. Like a lot of people in Europe, I am going to take advantage of the very high quality open source software that is now available. Lots of money will be saved. Absolutely no computing value or productivity will be lost. It is a friggin’ no brainer. Why should ANYONE put up with so much nonsense and cost with Microsoft and Vista. That company is so arrogant that they actually think they can FORCE the entire world to do what they want, and pay them $44 BILLION dollars per year in the process.

In my world, Microsoft’s nonsense is O-V-E-R.

P.S. If my car maker gave me this much trouble, I would never buy a car from them again. I simply do not understand why people tolerate so much nonsense from Microsoft when it is not necessary.

Problem Is

In reply to Ohh, what is the name of your psychiatrist…

Car makers do treat us the same way.

rickk: Maybe you need to…

In reply to Ohh, what is the name of your psychiatrist…

.
Maybe you need to change car makers. I don’t have serious problems with mine.

Don’t know about that

In reply to as for me i will wait for sp1

I used to listen to a radio several hours a day, but the last few years…..well..I just haven’t turned a radio knob at all. Don’t miss it at all. I have used Windows every day for years, but….times change….I imagine it will be like radio…..I’ll hardly miss it at all.

Advertising

In reply to The ‘fix’ was mentioned

is why they win and some times a head start
In so many things it?s the most talked about that win
Human nature maybe

It’s amazing what some people willingly submit to these days

In reply to Over-reaction, me thinks

.
[b][i]”…a fix is out for this issue…”[/i][/b]

and

[b][i]”…Contacting the game producer to update their version of this piece of software fixes the issue…”[/i][/b]

Thanks for the link. I expected they would fix this quickly. Doesn’t change anything for me though.

I don’t care if this capricious deactivation occurred because of a bug or not. I don’t care if Microsoft or a vendor “fixes” the bug or not. [u]The problem is that there is code in the operating system that can cause it to self-deactivate[/u]. That alone is unacceptable.

I’m simply not ever going to run an operating system that can capriciously self-deactivate, even if it is “not supposed to happen to legitimate customers and we’re sorry it happened to you” or some such.

I wonder… Will servers powered by the coming Vista Server have self-deactivation code that is never supposed to deactivate too? Airline scheduling systems? Police 911 information systems? Hospital information systems? Just a thought… :^0 :^0 :^0 (although this really isn’t funny)

[b][i]”…Something triggers this event and some research will uncover it…”[/i][/b]

You mean like some malware for instance? :^0

While Microsoft is researching it, and somebody else’s computer is down, I’m going to be running Windows XP, MacOS, or Linux. I’ll even let them borrow my computer to check their e-mail, [u]presuming the mail server is not also capriciously self-deactivated[/u]!! :^0 :^0 :^0

[b][i]”…You can contact MS via phone to restart the system if it stopped working…”[/i][/b]

I love how Microsoft is so generous with my time like that. No. I’m going to run Windows XP, Linux, and Macintosh and never have to call and wait on hold at any time. And, I can compute away from the Internet and telephones if I choose. I can compute on Christmas day if I choose. I can compute at 3:00 am if I choose. And, my operating system will never self-deactivate.

[b][i]”…The reality is that MS software is some of the most pirated in the world and activation while a bit painful isn’t that big of deal when you consider the business side…”[/i][/b]

It’s not activation that I object to. It’s DE-activation.

This piracy problem is Microsoft’s business problem. It is particularly offensive that they would try to make it my problem with this self-deactivation nonsense. And besides, it’s not like they need the money. $44 BILLION in sales, $18 BILLION in profit last year. Poor Microsoft. They “only” cleared $18 BILLION last year because of those bad pirates in China, India, and Russia!! :^0 What they chose to do [i]TO ME[/i] because of that is unacceptable.

[b][i]”…Those who have the biggest gripes are those who can’t install one copy on multiple computers like the “old days”…”[/i][/b]

Not me. I’ve been a paying Microsoft and Windows customer since 1992…and up until last week.

[b]Our conversation was had in Redmond[/b]

I’m quite sure there were a bunch of young Microsoft engineers in a conference room in Redmond designing this self-deactivation “feature”. They had a conversation much like we just had here. In the end, they decided that this would be acceptable.

They were too young, too foolish, and wrong.

[b]Not an Over-reaction[/b]

As you can see, mine was not an over-reaction at all. The “brilliant” minds at Microsoft just did not think this all the way through.

And, I am [i]NEVER[/i] going to upgrade to Vista.

Take care…

Being a man of few words…

In reply to It’s amazing what some people willingly submit to these days

and a bad case of injured hands, I only have this for a reply.

A responsible admin would never implement a software change that could cause a failure without lab testing first. And if he did install without verifying before implementing then he should pack up and go work at Taco Bell.

Were did he ever say any of that?

In reply to Being a man of few words…

NT

How do you test an install on Vista? Let’s examine this.

In reply to Being a man of few words…

.
Let’s take your point and examine it. How do you test install on Vista? OK. You install on a separate test machine, find out that the installation of the software triggers DE-activation, and so you don’t do it on all of the workstations in your network. For sake of argument, let’s assume the DE-activation occurs immediately, and not a month later. [Hope you sleep well not knowing if this assumption is correct, or not.]

But, you still have a DE-activated test system to reactivate. Online RE-activation isn’t so painful. But, it won’t always work. Sometimes you’ll have to call Microsoft, wait on hold, explain, argue, and beg, to get RE-activated. Maybe, the person you reach will call you ‘PIRATE!’ and refuse to RE-activate you altogether. What next, write a letter to BillG calling him a “poo poo head”?

[Of course, that was and obnoxious, childish comment. I did it on purpose.]

Microsoft’s new WGA in Vista, and soon to be added to Windows XP in SP3, puts all adults into a position of potentially having to ask or beg for RE-activation of the product they legally acquired and paid money for. Ed Bott’s game install shows very clearly how little it takes to get DE-activated with 3 days to get it fixed.

That is enough for me. I am going to run a different operating system.

From your job role indication.

In reply to How do you test an install on Vista? Let’s examine this.

I would have thought that this is something that you would have insite into.

From your reply it is obvious that you are not involved in testing at the company where you work or a real response would have been forth coming.

But I do understand your position based on your experience and I am not into denegating someone based on their opinion.

his point

In reply to From your job role indication.

I think his point is that testing a new system install is an iffy proposition with MS Windows, because all too often the worst effects (outside of not being able to install the thing effectively in the first place) don’t arise for months.

I find that the best way to test an MS Windows release is to wait until SP1 has been “in the wild” for a few months. Let others test it for you.

I’m confused by your reply.

In reply to From your job role indication.

.
I was replying to this point from you:

[b][i]”…A responsible admin would never implement a software change that could cause a failure without lab testing first…”[/i][/b]

First: The issue is capricious DE-activation by WGA, nothing else.

I presume you are speaking about “lab testing” that a “responsible admin” does before he rolls out a new program or an update to a bunch of workstations he is responsible for on a corporate network. No?

My points were:

1. If the test fails (vis-a-vis DE-activation), he still one DE-activated workstation to reactivate with Microsoft. That’s one too many for me.

2. If the test succeeds (vis-a-vis DE-activation), and he rolls out the software to all of the workstations, he really doesn’t know if it will trigger DE-activation on them immediately, or at some later point in time.

Testing software/updates for DE-activation issues really cannot be done sufficiently well.

Further: I would not be surprised at all to hear about people experiencing “spontaneous DE-activation” with no apparent action having caused it.

Think about it: The purpose of WGA is to beat the pirates at hacking into Windows and stealing it. In order for that to have even a remote chance of working, there must be triggers for the DE-activation “bomb” hidden all over the place inside millions and millions of lines of Windows code. Without that the whole thing would be easily defeated and moot, right? With that many triggers, I guarantee that Microsoft has not made it the “bomb” 100% safe (easy claim…look what happened to Ed Bott). Further, with that many triggers, I would not trust ANYBODY to make the “bomb” 100% safe. Only simple things ever get to that level of safety, not complex things like WGA. The computer and software that controls your anti-lock brakes is very simple. No WGA. No fancy code. It just works. WGA, like so much that Microsoft turns out, is incredibly complex, and has lots of bugs. The “bomb” is not safe. Ask Ed Bott. Microsoft knows this. [u]That is why they have human operators to handle manual RE-activations[/u].

Look. As far as I am concerned, this is a REALLY STUPID extremely arrogant thing Microsoft has done. There are enough issues with keeping automated systems up and running. Adding capricious DE-activation to it is absurd. It’s the kind of mistake I would expect in a shareware program.

I’m not going to participate in this absurdity.

[b][i]”…From your reply it is obvious that you are not involved in testing at the company where you work or a real response would have been forth coming…”[/i][/b]

Did I get it right?

I’m unsure if my last two posts responded well to your last two posts. If not, please try again and I will try again. I’m certainly not intending to denegrate you in any way. Thanks.

—

BTW: Don’t be confused by job role indications. They say nothing about skill and experience. My decades of experience tell me very clearly that I should not be running Windows anymore. Only people who are too young, with too little experience, and too little knowledge, and too much GREED, would ever do what Microsoft has done with WGA and capricious DE-activation.

Are you a salesman?

In reply to From your job role indication.

Gee I don?t know if we should listen to salesman
Hang on worse are you a vista salesman
Not sure if I even want to talk to you at all
No that?s not fair
Salesmen always tell the truth

I have been warning people

In reply to How do you test an install on Vista? Let’s examine this.

About the WGA for so long I do not remember when I started . . Its must have been the first time I seen XP Pro and all the EXTRA bloat ware it had . . And then add the anti spy ware to the same machine and it wanted to delete half the contents of it I laughed at it and let it do the deleting then went thru and deleted most of what was left . . Just to get down to a version which was just a OS by its self . . Ever read the list of stuff thats running inside of Windows XP or VISTA no wonder it sucks up memory . . I will be glad when I have totally gone to Linux . . Only got to run windows to do a few things yet and soon to be able to run them inside of Linux . . [b]YES ! [/b]

They were too young, too foolish, and wrong.

In reply to It’s amazing what some people willingly submit to these days

I have travelled a long way with MS…but it stops at XP. Due to certain limitations, I have to abide with the system I have, for support, warranty and guarantees but these expire soon and I shall then install a new OS, hopefully I will have tried some by that time.

Before some of those MS zealots shoot me down…I never professed at knowing other OS’s however I am aware of them and want to try them, and find one best suited to me that is NOT MS.

Don’t need the “fix”

In reply to Over-reaction, me thinks

Because there won’t be any Vista crap on my computer.

Now it’s final. I will NEVER upgrade to Vista

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

More garbage from Microsoft. More control. More of nothing. XP was their first almost accepatable product – note almost. One would think they would have written a better release instead of changing everything – much the less changing it for the worse. They’re nothing more than acres of over-educated underexperienced idiots clustered in Redmond WA.

I will never upgrade to Vista either.

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I agree with you 100%. Vista’s WGA and DRM tie up your computers CPU not for your benefit, but instead are working against you. Also Vista’s severe hardware, software, and driver incompatibility issues are reasons to never touch Vista. Anyone who uses a computer to do real work should never upgrade from XP Professional to Vista. The CIO at the US Department of Transportation has banned upgrades to Vista citing “No compelling business reason to upgrade and several reasons not to upgrade to Vista”. See this Link: http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=197700789

Please post…

In reply to I will never upgrade to Vista either.

your testing of Vista and the target test systems and their hardware configurations along with the test results and the system utilization rates to back up your statements.

Thank you from the people who wants facts.

Why not post how Vista doesn’t eat your resources?

In reply to Please post…

If you want the facts, why not start off with a few of your own?

some benchmarks

In reply to Please post…

http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/01/29/xp-vs-vista/

Conclusion: Vista is marginally slower than XP on high-end hardware in general. For professional graphics work, avoid Vista if at all possible.

http://www.thepcspy.com/articles/other/what_really_slows_windows_down/5

Conclusion: Avoid operating systems that need AV software, because they run like dogs and consume all your system resources.

Not just Vista

In reply to some benchmarks

this is a current MS trend. SQL 2005 is 30% slower than 2000 for adhoc queries prepared or otherwise. MS’s stated advice is do everything with stored procedures and or .net extensions.

In other words multiple back end implementations, vendor lock in or crap performance compared to your competitors.

Let me see now, eenie, meenie, mysql, postgresql.

too true

In reply to Not just Vista

Since MS Windows became actually usable in ’93 with v3.1, and useful (there’s a distinct difference between “usable” and “useful”) with v3.11, there has not been a single new MS Windows release that outperformed its predecessor at the time. Any performance benefits to an upgrade have always taken effect a couple years later, when the hardware caught up with the massive resource requirements of the new MS Windows release.

This points out two distinct, and startling, deficiencies in MS Windows design:

1. The older release version was targeted at the foreseeable hardware availability at that time, without putting much thought into scaling upward with future hardware advancements. As hardware advanced, there was no way to make the OS advance with it in terms of taking advantage of increasing resources at its disposal as well as it should have.

2. The newer release version assumed greater system resources to such an extent that it ran more poorly than its predecessor on the hardware currently available at its release date.

This isn’t a one-time issue. This didn’t just happen once or twice when an “upgrade” in MS Windows release occurs.

It happens [b]EVERY . . . SINGLE . . . TIME[/b].

I’ve sort of got used to that

In reply to too true

sort of like getting grit in your eye, you only notice after a while when you rub it.

Any competent client server developer tries to make the client and server as agnostic as they can, I mean that’s a good part of the reasoning behind the split ffs.

This particular maneouver has bitten them in the ass though, because our CTO just picked MySQL to be the backend for all our flagship products. MS gave us a fu, so he gave them one back that’s going to save us and our customers money and it will be faster and use less resources.

Redmond is where all the software and business brains are, yeah right.

Could n’t lead a dog to a bone, the lot of ’em.

You do under stand why?

In reply to too true

Each newer windows version requires more resources or new and more powerful hardware?
Just look at the ownership of the companies who make the hardware for windows based pc
Helps to line the pockets with money

This is a lie it never happened…

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

There is more misinformation out there about Vista. If you don’t want to use it fine but quit being such a lying cry baby. Grow up…

Can you support that?

In reply to This is a lie it never happened…

Can you support that assertion? I would love for you to be right about that.

This was found by Ed Bott of ZDNet. He documented it pretty well.

Please cite website references or other information to support what you have claimed about this.

Thank you.

Can he

In reply to Can you support that?

Of course I can’t prove that he is wrong. Only that it din’t happen to me on the 50 or so computer I’ve already set up with Vista. And yes I’ve made many changes to them software and hardware. If it did happen just call MS and get it re-activated. I’m just tired of all the bitching and complaining. Any resonable person could fix this problem with out giving up.

You cannot support it. It is not a lie. And it did happen.

In reply to Can he

.
I understand your view of Vista. I agree with you. I ran the beta also without this problem. And, yes, there is a way to resolve the problem if it does occur. That is not the point.

The point is that it is completely unacceptable to me that there is code in Vista that can self-deactivate the operating system. I don’t want to have to deal with this nonsense. Apparently, this time it was a bug. Next time it could be malware. Who knows? Who cares?

I will not stand for my workstations to be subject to capricious self-deactivation under any circumstances.

I don’t want my Vista Servers (when released) to be subject to capricious self-deactivation. I won’t stand for it.

It’s OK if you want to sign up for that. I won’t do it. I will not tolerate any more bullsh*t from Microsoft. How do you know this is the end of it? You don’t and neither do I. Ballmer has already disclosed that there is more restrictive WGA code sitting in wait that can be activated and has threatened to do so. They are out of control. Read: (1).

There are good alternatives that don’t self-deactivate and I am going to use them. Microsoft is not necessary anymore.

I hope you enjoy Vista and that it never self-deactivates on you and that you are happy with it.

I am also going to be happy and will never upgrade to Vista.

—————————–

(1) Ballmer blames pirates for poor Vista sales. Will crank up WGA.
http://www.techspot.com/news/24405-ballmer-says-buffing-up-wga-will-improve-vista-sales.html
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37721
http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/02/19/ballmer.blames.piracy/

P.S. And, if your workstation is deactivated and you need to check your e-mail, I’ll let you use my workstation to check it, assuming the Vista e-mail server is not self-deactivated that is. 🙂

Then reasonably speaking

In reply to Can he

You will stop reading this bs and stop bitching and whining here about it, eh?

That’s pretty vicious of you.

In reply to Can he

You call him a liar — making a pretty serious accusation — then admit that you have no actual evidence to back it up. Not only do you not have any evidence to offer us for verification, but you cannot even provide claims of convincing evidence in your possession that you have no way of presenting. You have [b]nothing[/b] of worth to dispute his statement.

Yeah. Vicious, calling him a liar under those circumstances. Downright unethical. Libelous, even. If your statement had any credible chances of damaging his professional reputation, he’d almost have grounds for a lawsuit.

Good job.

Yes

In reply to That’s pretty vicious of you.

Yes I do not believe the orginal artcle is a lie, that Vista doesn’t deactivate. MS admitted it does happen. I beleve the lie is that Vista is not usable because of this one instance when installing a game, expecally since the fix is known and stated in the original article.

I run into problems all the time with installing new software on all platforms, PC’s, Macs and Linux (mostly Linux dependences) but I will not ever stop using them because of problems I encounter. I work through it.

I also hate the idea of having to register software also. But I guess this is the future of all software.

Problems are one thing. DE-activation is another matter.

In reply to Yes

[b][i]”…I run into problems all the time with installing new software on all platforms, PC’s, Macs and Linux (mostly Linux dependences) but I will not ever stop using them because of problems I encounter. I work through it…”[/i][/b]

Yes. But, the problems are never the operating system capriciously deactivating itself, sometimes with 3 days notice.

You can submit to this. That is fine. I will never submit to this.

That’s not a lie

In reply to Yes

that’s his opinion.

The poster feels that the fact that a de-activation of a perfectly valid, paid for an legal copy of an OS, constitutes an unwarranted risk to business and an unjustifiable flouting of his rights as a consumer.

How can that be a lie?. Are you saying he’s secretly posting from his fifty vista workstations and just posted this to get some attention?

He said it does and he said why he thinks it does, your rebuttal is “liar”.

If you feel there’s enough value in vista to manage the risk of being de-activated, just say so. You could even add what you think adds value, presumably you don’t want to be judged as an unthinking MS zealot, any more than I would like being judged as an unthinking ‘nix zealot.

Registering software is not a problem as such, being assumed a pirate by default, most definitely is.

Something else…

In reply to Yes

.
[b][i]”…I beleve the lie is that Vista is not usable because of this one instance when installing a game, expecally since the fix is known and stated in the original article…”[/i][/b]

I don’t think anyone has said Vista is “not usable” because of this. I certainly don’t think that way. Even if someone said that, it wouldn’t be a lie, it would only be their opinion.

For me, Vista’s WGA capricious DE-activation feature is “not acceptable” though.

For instance: Down the road there will be a Vista Server. Will it DE-activate itself also? If it does, will you be notified before or after you lose business? What if the servers involved are running the Police 911 system? An airline reservation system? A hospital database? Will you trust Microsoft if they tell you it won’t ever cause disruption to your business? That it will only disrupt Ed Bott’s silly game? I won’t, I can tell you that. Microsoft has [u]woven[/u] a bomb into the heart of Vista. It is designed to be hard for pirates to mess with and get away with it. That means the bomb triggers are all over the place. Frankly, I don’t believe they have made it safe. I don’t think it’s possible to make it safe.

Look. As far as I am concerned, this is a REALLY STUPID extremely arrogant thing Microsoft has done. There are enough issues with keeping automated systems up and running. Adding capricious DE-activation to it is absurd.

[b][i]”…I also hate the idea of having to register software also. But I guess this is the future of all software…”[/i][/b]

I see the as submission to Microsoft’s obscene $44 BILLION dollars per year arrogance. It’s only “the future of all software” if you let it be. It is not the future of all software in my world.

But, like I’ve said. You are free to use Vista. It doesn’t mean you are a bad guy or are making a bad choice. You said it yourself. You have 50 Vista installations and all of them are up and running for you. That means something.

Take care.

Huh….

In reply to Can you support that?

what was posted by Ed Bott?

Did you just jump in at the middle?

In reply to Huh….

Please see the first post of this discussion for quotes and links related to Ed Bott’s comments.

WOW!!!! number 2

In reply to This is a lie it never happened…

leave it to techrep to flush out the endangered species now days. I mean the rare and ever fleeting MS/Vista supporters. With tyler here I’ve spotted 2 here on TR alone.

that’s 2 more than I’ve seen since the announcement of Vista.

chuck

Make it four.

In reply to WOW!!!! number 2

Don’t forget George Ou and Steven S. Warren.

Try the ZDNet threads

In reply to WOW!!!! number 2

It’s full of them…..worse than a flock of buzzards.

I counted 51 posts out of 261 by one nut, calls himself Linux spelled backward. Just bla bla bla bla on and on, one trainload of garbage after another……lots of fun.

Who’s the crybaby?

In reply to This is a lie it never happened…

Aint me…..must be you….yes!, you’re the one I hear crying.

Where to start?

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I know this is a thread re: Vista, and a had a bitter taste of the beta and have spit it out. After doing some research on Linux, my head is nearly spinning from the distros, (not that choice is a bad thing)and I’d like to know if you had any suggestions for a Windows only boy. PC Linux? Linspire? Ubuntu? Is there a best one to cut your teeth on? I’m building a new box soon, and I’d like to keep MS off of it, or possibly Linux+XP with VMware.

just do it…

In reply to Where to start?

I’ve found ubuntu and PClinux to be the best for new *nix users (ymmv). once you get beyond the curve you will automatically find one that better suites you. “NO FEAR!!” make the move. you won’t regret it.

chuck

I’m with Slydder, mostly.

In reply to Where to start?

I would probably recommend starting with Ubuntu. Once you get used to that, move on to Debian — what you learn with Ubuntu will transfer well to Debian. After making that transition, you should be up to speed enough to move to FreeBSD — and if you found Debian appealing for its characteristics as contrasted with other Linux distributions, you should like FreeBSD even more.

Just doing it – Thanks

In reply to Where to start?

Just downloaded Ububntu and PC Linux and plan on trying them out on this box in preparation for the new build. Seems like the perfect time. Thanks again.

no problem

In reply to Just doing it – Thanks

do me a favor though. once you start the move be sure to document everything and afterwards do a write-up of your move. once it’s finished come by and post it on my site. http://www.itadmins.net.

thanks,
chuck

Throw Bill Gates and Ballmer in JAIL…

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

And set the bail at 100 Trillion Dollars. Quite simply, Microsoft must not be allowed to neither buy its way out nor make any appeal. No, I’m not joking. What is happening with Vista is white-collar crime. It’s so obvious. Throw them in jail. it’s the strongest, angriest suggestion I can make without having the FBI hang around outside my house. If you feel this embodies the unresolved anger of putting up with 20 years of b.s. from Microsoft, then say so.

TechExec2, more power to you. I have
dual-booted XP and Linux Since last August.

Thanks…

In reply to Throw Bill Gates and Ballmer in JAIL…

.
Although I don’t like Gates and Ballmer at all, I don’t think they should be thrown into jail.

I appreciate your supportive comments.

The problem is really with the U.S. government. Even though Microsoft was convicted of violating antitrust law, the government merely scared Microsoft to death, then left them intact to continue acting badly within the software industry. One thing that DID come out of that trial however, was that Microsoft should completely forget about using their monopoly in computer operating systems and software to dominate OTHER businesses such as online banking, online stock trading, or computer generated movies, etc. That is exactly the direction Microsoft was headed in, but they have completely backed off from that since then.

It is clear that the government has given Microsoft a free hand to dominate computer software for Windows. For example: Microsoft was convicted of violating antitrust law in the Internet Explorer vs. Netscape Navigator case. What is the difference between that and what Microsoft has done with Virtual PC? They bought the Virtual PC asset from its developer and put it up on the Internet for free download by anyone. This is killing VMWare. I don’t see any difference there.

I’m angry at what Microsoft is doing also. But, I channel it. I am going to leave Windows and be happy on Linux and Macintosh now. So, I will put aside my anger and move on. Living well is the best revenge. I highly recommend it.

Thanks again for your support.

You Are Right

In reply to Thanks…

And the best way to get to them is with silence. Like you say, just turn your back on them and walk away, without a word. That infuriates them.
Trouble is, I can’t keep my big mouth shut.
Ciou

Thanks, Ole Man! You are wise and smart!

In reply to You Are Right

I always enjoy finding a wise and smart person here on TR.

All the best!

Got your mad on – but dual booting XP?

In reply to Throw Bill Gates and Ballmer in JAIL…

Who are you kidding? Delete that XP installation right now and make a real stand for linux! The Vista whiners will welcome you with open arms.

Who are you kidding?

In reply to Got your mad on – but dual booting XP?

Are you trying to say you are a LINUX Whiner?

Anyone Need Some Lotion?

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

Because this post and related comments is the biggest wack job for our open source friends that I’ve ever seen.

I agree!

In reply to Anyone Need Some Lotion?

You can tell by their comments that most of these Linux zealots are not concerned with Vista, or factual accuracy. They just want to whine about Microsoft and evangelize about Linux.
This problem, (if there ever was one, since it was eliminated very quickly) was recorded with frame by frame captures — like it was maybe, all planned out ahead of time.

are there any real tech professionals here

In reply to I agree!

most of these post sound more like end users than network admins and support personal if you don’t own the company you use the format you are given show me a CEO CIO or for the most part a partition mole who can use Linux the cost of training them would be way to much and theres a reason mac only has a 2.5 percent of the market it’s called no Choice no more needs to be said

Well said!

In reply to are there any real tech professionals here

Nice that you understand!

Just can’t figure the odds

In reply to are there any real tech professionals here

Can You?

Mac Market share

In reply to are there any real tech professionals here

Question, where did you get you figure for 2.5 percent and what year was it published? I had heard it was double your claims and increasing. While you are looking up facts to answer my question, I will look up facts supporting my assertion with dates and sources.

2.5 percent is world wide desktop share

In reply to Mac Market share

N

More on Mac Market Share

In reply to are there any real tech professionals here

From EETimes:

Apple is continuing to enjoy momentum in the PC space. During the last quarter of 2006, Apple’s shipments of Macintosh-based computers jumped by more than 31 percent and the company’s market share increased to 4.7 percent in the U.S., up from 3.6 percent the year earlier.

Here:

http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=197800838

‘Nuff said.

4.7% is Still Pretty Sad

In reply to More on Mac Market Share

Considering how long they’ve been around.

And 31% jump means nothing. If I have a 1% market share and I get to 2%, the headline could read I’ve doubled my market share. Big deal, 1%.

If Microsoft were to move by 1%, it would mean tens of millions even hundreds of millions of more copies.

RE: 4.7%

In reply to 4.7% is Still Pretty Sad

If one is looking solely at the operating system and not the machine running it, you’d be correct. But then many server OS’s are in the under 5% category too. Now as far as brands of computer manufacturers go, Apple is doing well.

Now if I had a 31% return on investment for one year, I would be dancing in the streets despite my bad knee. If the selling trend for Apple continues for this year, it may well be the wake up call MS needs to clean up its products. I happen to like a computer that just works when I take it out of the box without having to input cryptic numbers to get it going.

I like banks that just give me money

In reply to RE: 4.7%

without me entering the cryptic numbrs just to get my own cash. Face it – this will never happen

What Are You Talking About?

In reply to RE: 4.7%

“If one is looking solely at the operating system and not the machine running it, you’d be correct.”

Yes, that is the topic here.

“But then many server OS’s are in the under 5% category too.”

You lost me.

“Now as far as brands of computer manufacturers go, Apple is doing well.”

Define “well”. Sure, they’re profitable, but only for some of the same reasons Microsoft is profitable. How do they stack up against someone like HP or Dell?

Makes Sense

In reply to RE: 4.7%

Maybe Microsoft have worked with main board manufacturers instead of wga
Or maybe CPU makers

Don’t forget the second hand market

In reply to More on Mac Market Share

This makes up a lot of pc sales
It is believed to be Microsoft?s biggest competition

One or two yes.

In reply to are there any real tech professionals here

Moving low tech corporate users over to linux is easy. Click on the word icon, type, click the save icon, type in a name, click the OK button.
Trained.

My progression into linux was much more difficult. Not more difficult than the one to DOS, to MPE-XL, to Windows, to NT, to VMS, to straight unix, to HP-UX…

Windows does have mass appeal, it does have an enormous user base, it is used at home and school and then business. Why do you think they are so successful, because it’s technically better?

I’d say for a basic appliance type user the switch to vista is no bigger a training requirement than that to say Mepis or Ubuntu or some of the other mass appeal distros.

The only reasons administering and implementing windows is more of a problem, is Linux never started out to be approachable in that regard and far too much emphasis in terms of education and training has been how to do this in windows XX, instead of why and when and what it means.

Adding a user to a system, is adding a user, giving them privileges is doing that. From a role based point of view why should the OS matter more than the actual task and the reasoning behind it?

Home users are a different kettle of fish, because they are admins, power users and users rolled into one, yet the bulk know next to nothing about being the first two.

No secretary is going to give a toss about what OS they are on, which word processor they are using is the issue.

Is retraining to say Open Office that much more of a hurdle than Office 2007. No they have the same basic functionality, some of the icons are different and the menus have moved around, that’s it, same with Office pre 2007, every damn version.

“real” tech professionals

In reply to are there any real tech professionals here

[i]most of these post sound more like end users than network admins and support personal[/i]

So real tech professionals aren’t also allowed to be end users and have computers of their own? They aren’t allowed to have opinions about their home PCs?

Vista is largely a home user system at this point

In reply to are there any real tech professionals here

Has anyone had any dealings with SMB or larger businesses that have rolled out Vista?

Perhaps I’m in a backwater (well I am but I mean a real deep one) but I haven’t encountered business people ready to change to Vista as yet while the screaming and general jumping up and down goes on. They are sticking with their current systems until it becomes clear that Vista gives them something they want.

Have others seen different?

Therefore the only people I know dealing with Vista are ‘end users’ so maybe that explains some of the tone and focus in here.

On a interesting note a few business people have started to ask whether they should think about a change to Linux. For most the answer, in my opinion, is ‘no’ but the question is being asked by people who would never have asked before Vista. The screaming and yelling from so many has got them rattled, MS needs to fix this perception problem quickly.

Well so far as I replace complete networks the companies are sticking

In reply to Vista is largely a home user system at this point

With the old OS’s and software because they know that they work without problems.

Most Business move slowly and do not adopt new technology till it’s been in the field for a few years to prove itself. Currently Vista hasn’t been around that long and as such is an unacceptable gamble to most companies. Here they can either adopt early and maybe win big or loose big and when faced with options like that they ere on the side of caution and chose to adopt after the product has been proven.

I only know of one place that has adopted Vista and they have a 2,500 workstation LAN and because of the change to Vista I’ve managed to drop them as a client as I don’t as yet support Vista in the Work Place. But judging by the number of phone calls that I’m getting from the change over has not been a smooth one. I currently understand that they are using XP as a Virtual Machine in Vista to keep their Mission Critical work running and because they have moved to Office 2007 they are no longer electronically transferring documents but printing and couriering them around. Because they are a Government Department we get to pay for their mistakes.

Col

Wrong!

In reply to I agree!

You’re the ones whining. I would say the Linux zealots are more like crowing.

Yep

In reply to Wrong!

To be honest I have always (since windows 2) supported MS to a degree. They did more to move the PC into the home than any other company in history. Have to give them credit for that. I stopped providing my clients windows support when XP came out and I have not regretted it.

Back then I ran a site called IT Admins and posted (during the XP betas) that there would be a big move to Linux/BSD due to the new “protection” in XP. I was right. I wish I still had a copy of the old site so I could repost on my new site. lol

Anyway, a large majority of my clients are all Linux now and happy that they don’t have the issues anymore. It was a bit of a learning curve but it is also worth it.

I, personnally, am crowing because it is happening again. All the new version of Windows means to me is that I will have more clients in the future (server clients) as more Windows servers are phased out.

chuck

Another Coup

In reply to Yep

I too was hesitant to to move to XP because of the product activation threat, but after a year or so, when it SEEMED that Microsoft would be more or less fair about it, I was suckered into it. Didn’t really have any problems (only had to call Microsoft once, and then they were nice as pie), until…..they came out with WGA. Won’t go into details, but that’s when the stinky brown stuff hit the proverbial fan. So much for Microsoft and Mr Nice Guy.
I now have six different Linux systems installed (although i’m still using the Windows that i’ve already paid for), and if Microsoft thinks i’ll pay a fortune for another pile of garbage that they can remotely monitor, shut down, or even refuse to activate if I need to reinstall or upgrade my hardware, they’re in for an education, regardless of how smart they are.
So I am crowing with you and the Microsoft shills are whining.

Another Coup

In reply to Another Coup

Not sure I understand the problem with WGA. Seems to me the only ones hurt by a validation utility like that would be pirates. I’ve never run into any issues with it under XP – works fine.

Same thing with Activation. I don’t like the idea that the S/W could DE-Activate (which is another reason not to consider Vista) but have never had trouble with any of my XP installations.

Nevertheless – I’ll stick with XP for the forseeable future. It just works.

I played with some Linux distros (Ubuntu, etc.) out of curiosity. They seem nice – but for me it would be like throwing the car in reverse at 80Mph to retool everything when nothing is broken.

Later!

-CB

:D Told ya so didn’t I

In reply to Wrong!

The only thing I’m surprised about is some people have found this surprising.

welcome to the discussion

In reply to Anyone Need Some Lotion?

It’s nice to see that, true to form, you’ve come to offer an in-depth, comprehensive analysis. You’ve definitely introduced some new facts into evidence there, such as

. . .

such as

. . .

Well. I’m sure there’s something of value in your post. Must be.

Vista

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

Well, I decided to attempt the move to Vista, checked the microsoft site on compatibility, everything checked out 100% compatible. Checked the manufacturers site, they said it should work on my system. Went through a 4 hour install of Vista, to find out that the sound driver within Vista are messed up and kept giving me a blue screen error every time no matter what I did to fix this, even trying to disable sound through the bios.

After about another 4-5 hours of trying to fix it, I decided to do the revert. I worked fine, but took about 2-3 hours to complete, but I am glad the revert worked great.

Sorry to hear that.

In reply to Vista

but like i tell most of my clients. download a ubuntu live CD and give it a spin. the live CD’s are at times a bit limited (space restrictions), however, if you actually install on the drive (which goes fast in most cases) then you become full access to the software repositories and can install to you hearts content.

and if you don’t like gnome the try kubuntu (with KDE instead).

Like i tell all clients. there is a curve but you will be happy you went the distance once you realize what you have on you system afterwards.

chuck
http://www.itadmins.net

Sorry to hear about the trouble you had. Some suggestions.

In reply to Vista

.
Some suggestions and comments for you:

– It is unfortunate that Vista is choking so hard on a mere sound card driver, but there are a lot of changes inside Vista vs. XP. Sound was greatly changed and improved in Vista.

– Check the sound card manufacturer’s website for updated drivers for Vista. Or, if on the motherboard, check the motherboard manufacturer’s website. Your hardware may be listed as compatible, but may need the new drivers.

– When you attempt to install Vista again, I suggest you try to do it on a separate hard drive. That way, you can quickly go back to your old hard drive with Windows XP if things don’t go well. This kind of flexibility is well worth the relatively small additional cost.

I am not surprised at all that you had some problems with Vista. It works great for some people, and “feels” like a disaster for others like you. It’s not REALLY a disaster, but a BSOD “feels” pretty bad no matter what the cause is. After resolving your driver issue, Vista could feel quite solid for you.

Vista is not merely an upgrade from XP. It is almost like a new operating system. Problems like yours will be resolved in the coming months. I expect that eventually Vista will be essentially as solid as XP is now when it comes to hardware support. It will probably take 9-12 months to get there though, and even then, some hardware will never be supported well in Vista (e.g. some video cards with HDTV output and Vista Media Center features). The “Vista SR-1” CD (Service Release 1) that includes the first Service Pack should be a lot better.

You know what I’ve chosen to do. Each of us must make up our own mind about Vista. If you want to use Vista, don’t give up. It will get better.

All the best to you!

Vista Problems

In reply to Sorry to hear about the trouble you had. Some suggestions.

It is heartening to see that Microsoft has managed to stay in character.
That character is so well established that it is probably impossible for Microsoft to “detoxify” , change away from it.
We on the other hand have been told, by a publicity champaign to expext the impossible, i.e. perfection, no problems, a seamless transition from point a (xp) to b (Vista). Never mind the accelerated hardware requirements that in effect force the overwhelming majority of users to do some serious surgery to their computers if not an outright replacement of entire systems.
Never mind that 3/4 of the existing software will have compatibility problems that will force their brand new “prefect” OS to crash or at least deactivate, and pending a probably exessively long phonecall on hold waiting, waiting, waiting, to reactivate.
NO WAY as imperfect as XP is i’ll keep it.

Very smart!!

In reply to Vista Problems

As you know, I completely agree with you. You are making the right choice.

Take care!

FUD

In reply to Vista Problems

Before you (a graphics artist) begin spewing FUD like:

“Never mind that 3/4 of the existing software will have compatibility problems”

Do you actually have any proof of that number? Facts before fiction please!

Separate the wheat from the chaff

In reply to FUD

.
He said:

[b][i]”…Never mind that 3/4 of the existing software will have compatibility problems that will force their brand new “prefect” OS to crash or at least deactivate…”[/i][/b]

You’re right, rickk, he is going too far by connecting software compatibility problems to Vista crashing or DE-activating.

But, there ARE a lot of compatibility problems with existing software. The very short list of “Made for Vista” approved applications is clear evidence of this. For a variety of reasons, including UAC, MANY MANY apps require an upgrade to work properly, or at all, on Vista.

TE2

In reply to Separate the wheat from the chaff

Good reply. Also check out mine for ways of making a positive refutation to the 3/4 claim.

Quantification, substantiation, and citation are always good

In reply to TE2

.
The problem is, the vast majority of people refuse to do any research and cite actual information sources, even when asked, as your post notes.

Doing research before posting kind of slows the “coversation” down. I try to do it whenever I can to give the post credibility and substantiation and to avoid being asked. Sometimes I just post what I remember to be true without it. But, when challenged or asked appropriately, I always find and post a reference. I think that people who don’t do that are just throwing mud around at each other, some right, some wrong. Nobody reading can tell the difference because everyone is covered by mud.

Some here are [i]NOTORIOUS[/i] for throwing mud. 🙂

RE: FUD

In reply to FUD

If he does, would you be gracious enough to admit your error? I know earlier when I posted about market share, I asked the gent who asserted one figure to look up figures in support of his claim. I further stated I would do so while he was. I never got a reply since it would appear his figures were based on nothing more substantial than emotion. I, on the other hand, posted both a figure and a source for that figure where I was only .3% off on my estimation.

What might be nice on your end would be to research the actual figures and use as many sources as possible. In that way, you can prove your assertions in a logical, reasonable manner.

Get a Mac…

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

Why bother with Windows (either Vista or XP) when you
can get a Mac and enjoy :
– a rock solid OS (Unix BSD), exempt of viruses
– a clever and easy to use GUI
– plenty of applications, coherent with each other, so
easier to run
– a nice machine which can also run Linux and (if you are
fool enough) Windows
– free (yes, FREE) and very efficient development tools
– and no hassle with GSI or WGA
I have been using Apple computers for 29 years now,
Windows and Unix (and Linux). Now I run almost only Mac
OsX, and I’m happy…

Philippe Lecarpentier
France (76360)

GREAT POST!!

In reply to Get a Mac…

Right you are! The new x86 Macintosh is an excellent choice. Before switching to Windows in 1992, I used to run Macintosh. And, I am heading back!

Thanks.

Mac is worse than WGA

In reply to Get a Mac…

With Mac, WGA like validation is not needed as the OS is sold with the hardware. A classic lock in environment.

Windows has far more apps and its easier to run alternate OS’s within windows or outside windows, on the bare PC. Buy a Pc and you can choose what to boot without any 3rd party software. Oh the software and hardware options are endless, the PC world is fantastic. PC’s (Windows Linux combo on your hardware of choice) kill Mac. Do not lock yourself into the limiting Mac scenario.

MacOS X does not deactivate…

In reply to Mac is worse than WGA

MacOS X does not deactivate. There is no known logic that looks for piracy and deactivates the operating system. That is the point. Were it not for that, I would have no problem with Windows Vista.

Activation is fine.

DE-activation is unacceptable.

Exempt of Viruses?

In reply to Get a Mac…

All man made products have flaws by the very definition they were made by man.

In this case, all software has flaws. Even, gasps, Macs and Linux.

How about that new Linux/Thunderbird bug. That’s a real nice one.

Enjoy your over priced Mac where software selection is limited, everything is at least a magnitude of 10 fold more propietary than MS, support is harder to come by and the iPod service is a pain in the arse (talk about limiting choice and DRM issues).

The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

.
As you know, I have decided that I will NEVER upgrade to Windows Vista. But, having made that decision, what’s next? I cannot stay on Windows XP forever. There is a very serious realization to face here:

Refusing Vista means [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] :0

Of course, this is quite a shock. Windows and I have been friends since 1992. I need a project to deal with this.

So, I now have a project I call “Leaving Windows” (1), and I thought I would share it here on TR in the hope that it might be helpful to some of you. I [i]KNOW[/i] there are a lot of you out there dealing with the same problem that I am.

I hope you find it helpful. Take care…

————————-

(1) The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=213495&messageID=2185615

Good Luck

In reply to The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project

And we’ll check back with you in a few months.

You’ll still be on XP and thinking more and more seriously about Vista.

Your anger induced hangover will be over soon and reality is about to bite you in the rear end.

This should appear in Mainstream Press

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

All these forum sites are preaching to the converted…The Mainstream Press need to make it Headlines so the General Public know as well… but are probably too controlled by the Advertising Dollar to tell it how it really is and so continue to propogate the myth of how Wonderfull the software is

Mainstream Press

In reply to This should appear in Mainstream Press

Like news organizations?

They are only supposed to report the news. Too much of this is FUD (on both sides).

Besides, Anna Nicole Smith just died. The news shows are too busy right now.

I didn’t buy it…until it just happened to me

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

My Vista box, on boot, claimed that my key was in use the other day. Ok, no biggy, it has 30 days to re-validate.

So I install Half-Life 2: Episode 1, to see how it will play. Well, that turned out to be a bad idea. I had to reboot after install and now Vista claims my key is invalid.

I’m done. I don’t need the hassle of WGA and I really don’t care to spend anytime with MS tech support trying to get this squared away.

No wonder I moved to Linux and use Cedega to play games, eh MS?

That is pretty pathetic

In reply to I didn’t buy it…until it just happened to me

It is pretty pathetic that WGA breaks down so easily like that. I instantly knew from the moment I heard about this last week that I was never going to upgrade to Vista. And, refusing Vista means leaving Windows. XP is not going to last forever. So, there’s no point in prolonging the conversion to full-time Linux.

I expect this sad WGA story is going to get a lot bigger. It will probably reach mainstream media.

i hate to break this to you but

In reply to I didn’t buy it…until it just happened to me

i hate to break this to you but WGA is being Incorporated into windows xp as well and as of now it’s an option to install but when xp sp3 comes out unless you install WGA you will not be able to install it i read the license agreement and unless you install it you will no be able to download and install all extra downloads and that includes xp sp3

Which is exactly why I don’t use Windows anymore

In reply to i hate to break this to you but

I’m done. I’ve been a Linux users for about a decade, but now, I don’t even want to go near a Windows box.

Not only am I frustrated with the assumption that I am a pirate and I’m going to steal their software, but the pirates have an easier time because they DON’T have to validate.

Bah…MS must be trying to drive away consumers…

No support

In reply to i hate to break this to you but

is a benefit of running 98. If WGA had come to 98, this system would have been shut down and converted.

My decision was even more correct than I knew

In reply to i hate to break this to you but

My decision to leave Windows completely was more correct than I knew at the time then.

I still have my Windows 2000 CDs. I’ll go back to that if necessary.

Microsoft and Windows do not matter to me anymore. That is ancient history.

That’s not the REAL problem

In reply to i hate to break this to you but

Not a problem to be refused patches and updates. I don’t want them, even. Where the problem arises is when you need to reactivate …, then…gotcha! “Sorry, you must install this critical update before activation can be completed”. Now your goose is cooked. If you don’t install WGA, your OS is dead, dead, dead. If you do install WGA, Microsoft has gotcha. Your OS might as well be dead (as to be under the control of Microsoft).
I tried to point this out when everyone was discussing the XP “kill switch”. They don’t need a kill switch. It’s already there, concealed in their activation scheme.
What to do? what to do?
Fire up Linux!

I hate to break this to you but …

In reply to i hate to break this to you but

Hi guy …

I’m not sure why everyone is so upset by WGA. It’s been on my XP systems for awhile now (not sure how long – a few months maybe?). Anyway … as far as I can tell all it’s really there for is to make sure you’re not patching a non-certified version of Windows. Seems to me that only a pirate would be upset over this one. Am I missing something?

Take care.

-CB 🙂

Yes you are missing something

In reply to I hate to break this to you but …

Microsoft deactivated my LEGITIMATE copy of Vista through WGA. It’s been documented over and over and over, that WGA has deactivated legitimate XP boxes and now Vista is suffering the same problem.

Also, why should the pirates not have to worry about WGA and make life easy on them, when I have a legit copy, yet I can’t use it?

Yes. You are missing something important.

In reply to I hate to break this to you but …

.
[b][i]”…Seems to me that only a pirate would be upset over this one. Am I missing something?…”[/i][/b]

Sure, pirates might be upset. But, since they’re pirates, they’ll probably find a way around it. If they cannot, then it is even MORE likely that lots of legitimate customers will be advserly affected by WGA DE-activation. That is the only way to “get” all the pirates is by also “getting” some innocent people.

I’ve paid for every copy of Windows I have ever used all the way back to 1992. I never pirate software. Vista might not ever self-deactivate one me. But, as I said in my original post, I find the uncertainty unacceptable and I won’t stand for it. DE-activation can happen merely by installing the “wrong” software now.

Piracy is Microsoft’s business problem. But, how big of a problem is it really? They sold $44 BILLION and made $18 BILLION in profit last year. I wouldn’t call that an important enough problem to damage MY operating system with capricious self-deactivation.

Microsoft has every right to police piracy and they deserve to get paid for Windows. But, I will not stand for them putting a “bomb” in my operating system that they say is never supposed to go off except when the product is stolen, even though it does sometimes.

Missing something? Yes you are.

1. WGA on Vista is much much more aggressive than on Windows XP. Like night and day.

2. Microsoft is working to implement the same WGA aggressiveness on Windows XP. It will be introduced in SP3 (1).

Microsoft apparently thinks that they can do this dastardly thing and get away with it because people have no choice but to accept it.

Well, they might “get away” with it because a lot of people are submissive to a lot of things. But, there are other choices now and they are dead wrong about that part.

———————-

(1) Windows XP DE-activation is coming
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=212977&messageID=2185978

Hey Bubba!! Are you concerned [i]NOW[/i]? :^0

In reply to I hate to break this to you but …

About the coming aggressive Windows XP DE-activation?

I hate to break this to you but …

In reply to I hate to break this to you but …

eceryone was whineing about WGA inagrated into windows vista and i was just letting them know that it is or now is a part of XP

i did not say a word about being upset over it you need to read a post before calling someone a pirate

Half Life 2 and Cedega

In reply to I didn’t buy it…until it just happened to me

Half Life 2 performs about as good in Vista as it does in Cedega…pathetic.

Out of the box, you get maybe 10 fps.

Sure, you can tweak it and get pretty damn good performance, but most newbies to Linux wouldn’t be happy with the out of box performance nor be able to tweak it.

Why are you all willing to PAY $$$ to be beta testers

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I never use any MS product until it is out for at leats a year or 2 SP which ever comes first.

why pay to be a tester ms should pay you

In reply to Why are you all willing to PAY $$$ to be beta testers

youve got to be a dumbarse to pay.

*** ALERT *** [i]WINDOWS XP DE-ACTIVATION[/i] is coming!! :0 :0 :0

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

.
[b]Capricious DE-activation is coming to Windows XP also![/b]

From (1):

[i]”…A ZDNet.com blogger reported earlier in the week on a conversation between a Windows user and a Microsoft support staffer, who allegedly admitted that users who refused to install the WGA update would be given 30 days before their copies of Windows would stop working.

ZDNet.com said that Microsoft refused to deny the report at the time. But later, Microsoft appeared to sing a different tune.

“No, Microsoft antipiracy technologies cannot and will not turn off your computer,” said a spokeswoman with Waggener Edstrom, Microsoft?s public relations firm. “The game is changing for counterfeiters. In Windows Vista, we are making it notably harder and less appealing to use counterfeit software, and [u]we will work to make that a consistent experience with older versions of Windows as well[/u]…”[/i]

Translation: WGA on Windows XP is going to work the same as it does on Windows Vista. We know how Vista does WGA now. Capricious DE-activation is coming to Windows XP also.

[b]Conclusion[/b]

I have a valid Windows XP license that I paid for. I will not tolerate capricious DE-activation by WGA and all of the hassles and wasted time associated with that.

I refuse Vista. I’m moving to Linux and will use portable applications. Windows XP is going to be used only for certain things. If XP ever looks sideways, I’ll install my old Windows 2000 CDs.

I will not buy products from a vendor that treats me and my company like that.

I think the management at Microsoft has made a really big mistake with how they are doing WGA.

——————————-

(1) Microsoft denies WGA kill switch in Windows XP
Company says it plans to tighten honor system for corporate volume licenses
http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9001559

WGA is what happens to you when you buy only from a monopoly

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

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It works like this:

1. Microsoft wipes out the independent software vendors by creating “competing” products and bundling them into Windows.

2. Windows users get “free” applications in Windows and no longer have to buy from the independent software vendors.

3. The independent software vendors go out of business.

4. Microsoft implements WGA and charges higher and higher prices for Windows. Users are not happy, BUT THERE IS NO WHERE ELSE TO TURN.

—–

THAT is what is wrong with monopolies.

What the hell ever happened to that $89 Windows 95 upgrade? And the $149 full license? Why the hell is a Windows Vista upgrade $279 and a full operating system license $399?

—–

There is only one solution: Stop using Windows.

I am not a Linux Zealot. But, I am leaving Windows and moving to Linux. Thank goodness for the people who worked so hard to make Linux so good. Where would we be without them?

i don’t use built in windows app’s i install

In reply to WGA is what happens to you when you buy only from a monopoly

i don’t use built in windows app’s i uninstall them even the hidden ones i don’t use windows media player to watch DVDs i don’t use word pad or not pad i don’t use windows firewall if you want to get rid of windows app’s go to search and find “sysoc.inf” and back it up and then open it and every where you see hide remove it and then open add remove programs and then click on add/remove windows components
then you can get rid off all the bloat you want and theres a lot of it

I wasn’t speaking about bloat

In reply to i don’t use built in windows app’s i install

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I wasn’t speaking about bloat. I was speaking about competition in the marketplace between software vendors and Microsoft that abuses its monopoly power. Apparently MS is being allowed to do this by the feds, even though they were convicted of antitrust violations.

Microsoft uses this technique over and over and systematically wipes out independent software vendors one by one. Starting a new software business that develops applications for Windows today is plain stupid.

Examples: These applications that are included in Windows wiped out the independent software vendors that developed them because the Microsoft ones were included for free with the operating system:

– Microsoft Internet Explorer (killed Netscape Navigator)
– Microsoft Virtual PC (hurting VMWare)
– Windows FAX (killed WinFax)
– Widnows XPS (hurting Adobe PDF)
– Windows Media Player (hurting Real Player and QuickTime)
– Windows Backup (hurting and killing many backup programs)
– Windows HyperTerminal (killed ProComm and QMODEM)
– Windows DriveSpace (killed Stacker)
– Windows Defender (hurting Symantec, McAfee, and CA)
– Windows P2P Networking (killed LANtastic)

By including “competing” applications in Windows for free, the independent software vendors must reduce their prices to zero, find other sources of revenue with other products, or go out of business. It’s not competition. It’s a slaughter. ISVs have no chance to win here.

– Netscape: Acquired greatly discounted by AOL
– VMWare: Acquired by EMC
– WinFax: Acquired by Symantec
– Real Player: Still independent and struggling
– QuickTime: Apple has other sources of revenue and is OK
– ProComm: Gone (and also irrelevant as plain terminals are out of vogue)
– QMODEM: Gone (and also irrelevant as plain terminals are out of vogue)
– Stacker: Stac Electronics is out of business
– Symantec: Under pressure from security software in Vista.
– McAfee: Under pressure from security software in Vista.
– CA: Under pressure from security software in Vista.
– LANtastic: Out of business

Netscape killed it self

In reply to I wasn’t speaking about bloat

Netscape killed it self it was in the Begining a nice slim fast browser even if you had to buy it witch i did. then they started adding a bunch of crap that slowed it down and back in them days when we only had dial up i was not going to pay for a slow browser when one came with windows 98 and if you wanted you could order an msn cd and get a free version of ie.

real player is killing it self by trying to take over your computer at one time spying on your browsing habits i bought my first copy of real player i don’t use it any more because of what i stated i only need a media player running when i am watching or listening to media.

and as far as quick time go’s i have never liked it why because it wants to run all the time to and it wants or now I’ve heard you have to install itunes with it i don’t have an ipod i use another mp3 player.

i use a player i downloaded from the internet to play everything i have all the codecs needed and it works fine on the web and on my desk top

as far as McAfee and Symantec go’s i don’t use them not because i trust Microsoft to protect my computer it’s because they are bloatware Symantec has it’s own activation schem that works half the time and thats taking a big chunk of there business away bad installs activations or activations that die and no support thats got Symantec.

and what has everyone been crying about sine the days of dos how Microsoft is to lax on security so they are giving the ppl what they want all be in entry level tools it’s better than the crap that gets installed by the OEM’s you know the demo anti virus and firewall that work for 15 or 30 days and then crap out and most ppl think they are still protected.

me i like Linux and i like windows and i have an old mac laying around i don’t use it much because i just don’t like them but thats just my preference I’m not putting them down if someone like them fine.

but Microsoft give ppl what they ask for and most ppl who buy prebuilt computers have quick time installed and other software that is mot Microsoft’s.

it’s a free market if you have a good product thats coded by some good coders it will make it it does not matter what Microsoft does.

just like i use Firefox and Thunderbird Firefox is slim and fast and i just like Thunderbird for email. thats what makes it all good choice if ppl don’t want to use Microsoft’s crap they won’t no one is twisting there arm. i use windows but i find my own software and i think most others do to an less they are a total noob

Dude!

In reply to Netscape killed it self

While I agree with you (at least I think I do), I had one h3ll of a time trying to figure out what you were saying. You have good opinions, but it’s so hard to make out what they are, most people will blow you off. It took me the better part of an hour to make sense of what you posted.

Remember all those things your English teachers tried to get you to learn? Spelling? Punctuation? Capitalization? Grammar?

It’s time to start using them!

to sleepy lol

In reply to Dude!

it’s been a long day need i say more lol

Ok. I’ll try this a different way…

In reply to Netscape killed it self

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I’ll try this a different way, in the form of a “challenge” (no disrespect intended).

Ok, you say:

[b][i]”…it’s a free market if you have a good product thats coded by some good coders it will make it it does not matter what Microsoft does…”[/i][/b]

So here’s the “challenge”:

If this is really true, you should be able to name some ISV commercial software products for Windows that have been commercially successful (profitable, business-sustaining) in spite of the Microsoft business practices that I have labeled as anti-competitive. So, “challenge” is:

Name three (3) ISV for-profit (not free) commercial software products for Windows that are currently being sold, that have successfully survived competition from Microsoft, such that the competing Microsoft software program is either (1) Bundled into Windows (e.g. Microsoft Fax), or (2) Offered as a free download (e.g. Virtual PC).

——————

Notes:

1. Quicken does not fit this. Microsoft Money does not meet either criteria (1) or (2).

2. VMWare doesn’t fit this either because VMWare is now a wholly owned subsidiary of EMC, we don’t know if VMWare for Windows is profitable anymore or not (I seriously doubt it), and there hasn’t been enough time to see the affect of the free Virtual PC yet. I think it is going to kill VMWare on Windows. In fact, I think that Microsoft is making changes to WGA that will make it impossible to activate Windows XP or Vista in a VM except Virtual PC. Justification: Piracy, not to kill VMWare on Windows.

Easy

In reply to Ok. I’ll try this a different way…

Virtually anything competing against MS Movie Maker, Diskeeper, soon to be Adobe’s PDF programs, tons of backup software, many, many VPN clients, System Mechanic, all the spyware/adware removal programs, etc etc etc.

Microsoft has plenty of programs built into Windows that suck compared to 3rd party solutions. Almost all are for-profit and almost all are making lots and lots of money.

not exactly

In reply to Easy

Let’s add a third criteria:

Make sure you’re naming something for which Microsoft’s competing offering has been out long enough to affect the market.

Plus, y’know, you completely missed the “name some ISV commercial software products” part there. Actually [b]name[/b] something, please.

It also helps if you don’t think “produces PDFs” is equivalent to “offers credible competition for Acrobat”.

Interesting answer. Very good rickk.

In reply to Easy

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That is an interesting answer. And, I credit you with ONE product that passes the challenge. Very good rickk. This is certainly miles better than SO CAL GUY’s so far. I have some counterpoints for you.

[b]Diskeeper[/b]

I was aware of Diskeeper.

[u]THE WINDOWS BUNDLED APPLICATION[/u]

– Windows Defragmenter is the free bundled application the comes with all copies of Windows 2000 and XP.

– Developer: Windows Defragmenter was developed by Executive Software for Microsoft. [u]Executive Software is the former name of Diskeeper Corporation[/u]! So, Diskeeeper is competing with itself! Pretty good deal, huh!! :^0 :^0 :^0

[u]ABOUT DISKEEPER CORPORATION[/u]

– Diskeeper Corporation is a privately held corporation in California. Financial records are not public. But, I strongly suspect they are a highly profitable independent commercial software vendor.

[u]WHO BUYS DISKEEPER[/u]

– This product is purchased principally by companies that run Windows servers. It provides for automatic defragmention of NTFS file systems in order to keep servers running optimally. It provides advanced features that are not present in the free version that comes with Windows.

[u]SALES TERMS OF WINDOWS DEFRAGMENTER[/u]

– I don’t know what the terms were. But I guarantee you that Diskeeper Corp. got next to nothing in cash payments from Microsoft for the privilege of donating a very complex piece of software to Microsoft. I know that Microsoft never does per-copy-of-Windows royalty deals with “partner” ISVs.

– What did Diskeeper Corp get? (#1) I bet they got a handshake agreement that Microsoft would never enhance Windows Defragmenter and Diskeeper Corp would be “given” the high end of the market. Also, I’ll bet Diskeeper Corp is responsible for maintaining Windows Defragmenter…for free (or certainly without any significant profit for their time spent).

– What did Diskeeper Corp get? (#2) According to Diskeeper Corp (1), they have sold 20 MILLION copies of Diskeeper since the product was first released. That is a success story, to be sure. This is not a cheap product.

– What did Diskeeper Corp lose? Disk defragmentation is essential for an NTFS file system. According to this website (2), there have been 855 MILLION Windows PCs sold worldwide between 2001 and August 2006, all of them running Windows 2000 or XP. Diskeeper Corp gave up the potential sales to 835 MILLION customers in order to get the 20 MILLION they did get (the 20M goes back before 2001 though). Oh what could have been!!

[u]RESULT[/u]

This one is very wierd, and it is probably the ONLY way an ISV can exist in the Microsoft ecosystem while competing with a bundled product without being destroyed. I guarantee there is an illegal collusion agrement in there, but certainly not on paper. It isn’t like Microsoft is really trying to beat Diskeeper because the two companies are intimitely tied together and the ISV is competing with itself. But, a win is a win. This is a successful company.

This one PASSES the challenge. Very good rickk.

[b]System Mechanic[/b]

This product does performance configuration, problem detection and repair, IE popup suppression, IE work file and cache deletion, and spyware protection. Except for Vista and IE7 (just released), there is no product available for free from Microsoft that competes with this product.

[u]RESULT[/u]

This one FAILS the challenge.

[b]The other things you mentioned[/b]

The other things you mentioned are not products. So, you really cannot “pass” the challenge with general categories and unsubstantiated claims of profitability even though there are free products provided by Microsoft.

I know the kind of products you are thinking of, and I could comment on them, but they don’t pass the challenge. If you disagree, please name them.

————————–

(1) DISKEEPER SELLS 20 MILLION LICENSES
http://www.diskeeper.com/press/releases.aspx?F=2006080701.htm

(2) 25-year PC Anniversary Statistics
http://www.c-i-a.com/pr0806.htm

(3) PCs in-use: 900M in 2005
http://www.c-i-a.com/pr0506.htm

(4) Projection: 1.3B Cumulative PC Sales Over Next 5 Years (2006-2010)
http://www.c-i-a.com/pr0606.htm

Why Just ISV’s?

In reply to Easy

Why limit this to just ISV’s?

Microsoft faces competition in all areas of their business. I don’t see the point of limiting it to just ISV’s unless you intentionally want to win the debate before it has even started.

Microsoft gets beat day in and day out in lots of areas:

Backup
Disk Defragmentation
Tasks Scheduling
CD/DVD Burning
PDF Creation
Instant Messaging
Web Creation
Multi-Media Creation, Editing, Playing
Malware Detection and Removal
Compression/Decompression

The world is a huge place. Why limit this to ISV’s?

Yes, the ISV argument may hold true in the open source world, however, open source and commercial software are like apples and oranges.

I don’t like how you framed the premise of the question to begin with.

Microsoft has plenty of competition in plenty of areas.

rickk: You missed the point!! :-)

In reply to Easy

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This isn’t about Microsoft not having competition from somewhere. Of course there are things like Linux, Macintosh, and open source that compete with Microsoft products. Linux and Mac are separate platforms (this is about ISVs building Windows applications, the monopoly platform where the money is). Open source applications are not commercial products. They make inroads on Windows, but they are free. There is no revenue stream sustaining an ISV business behind them.

This is about Microsoft providing unfair monopoly competition that wipes out independent software vendors who develop and sell software products for Windows. Creating a company that makes and sells software for Windows is a losing game. If your product fails with customers, you lose. If your product succeeds with customers, Microsoft will, sooner or later, create or buy a competing product, and bundle it into Windows, or offer it for free download. And, you STILL lose.

Example: This is exactly what is happening to VMWare right now.

– Microsoft bought Virtual PC, and immediately put it up for free download.

– VMWare had to respond by coming out with free products, or lose ALL of their users.

– VMWare used to be a very successful independent company. It sold itself to EMC, undoubtedly because it would go bankrupt otherwise.

– Furthermore, Microsoft is making changes to Windows that enable WGA to appropriately enforce licensing restrictions, even when Windows runs in a VM. It is giving 3rd party VM vendors (VMWare, Parallels, etc) a very hard time about being permitted to sell VM software that Windows WGA will activate on.

The next ISV casualties on Windows are going to be VMWare and Parallels.

Check the news. VMWare/EMC and Microsoft are having a war in the press over this right now.

3 More Examples

In reply to Easy

ScriptLogic’s Desktop Authority

Sunbelt’s Ninja

Sunbelt’s Double Take

Bad news, rickk.

In reply to Easy

Microsoft doesn’t have competing products for Desktop Authority or Double-Take (as in: there’s nothing that comes close to being in the same category of functionality), and Microsoft’s forays into antispam are very tentative and new so far, so Messaging Ninja doesn’t really have enough competition from Microsoft yet for it to be a credible example either.

Apotheon’s Logic

In reply to Easy

Here he goes again.

Construct the question so that the person answering the question can’t win based on the nature of the question itself.

1) Name a competitor MS hasn’t crushed
2) Exclude any product MS has that’s new

One question for you Apotheon. Isn’t it a goal of all businesses to beat or even eliminate their competitors?

Oh, I know, you’re some kind of enlightened type where you enjoy successfully co-existing with your competition. Oh well, I routinely try to eliminate mine.

rickk: Now you understand

In reply to Easy

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I constructed the question that way on purpose.

It proves the point that it is futile for independent software vendors to create products for Windows. Microsoft easily crushes successful ISVs by either (1) Bundling a competing product into Windows (e.g. Internet Explorer), or (2) Buying or building a competing product and giving it away for free (e.g. Virtual PC).

The U.S. Congress created the antitrust laws that make such conduct illegal for a business that is classified as a monopoly. Microsoft was convicted of breaking those laws. And, it is clear that the government has been looking the other way since then. It’s up to the Executive branch to enforce them. It’s political.

When Microsoft actually does compete, I am all for it.

Example 1: MS Money is still on the market at $49 per copy. This gives Intuit Quicken a chance to keep selling their product. The consumer gains benefits from the competition including better features each year. Why doesn’t Microsoft bundle MS Money into Windows? I guarantee you that the U.S. Govt would drag Microsoft into court, that’s why. MS tried to buy Intuit outright some years back and the U.S. Govt blocked the sale.

Example 2: If Microsoft bought Virtual PC and kept it on the market, even at a more competitive reduced but not ZERO price (and not below the cost of manufacturing), I would think that is fine. If Microsoft improves Virtual PC and beats VMWare in the marketplace (because customers choose it), and kills VMWare, that would be completely fine.

I would not be surprised if EMC/VMWare sues Microsoft over antitrust eventually. I also would not be surprised if they won a huge settlement over it. And, they would deserve it. It has happened to Microsoft many times already. Microsoft has paid out MANY BILLIONS of dollars to settle those suits. They clearly view this as merely a cost of doing business and they can afford it. They clear $18B per year.

But, in the end, the consumer, you and I, lose the choice to buy the competing product (VMWare). We have to accept the Microsoft product whether we like it or not, or stop using the monopoly operating system used by 90% of the world and use something else.

[b][i]”…Construct the question so that the person answering the question can’t win based on the nature of the question itself…”[/i][/b]

Now you understand the futility of independent software vendors creating products for Windows:

…Construct the marketplace so that the ISV entering the market can’t win based on the nature of the marketplace itself…

It’s called abuse of monopoly power. And, it’s illegal (for good reason).

UM I don’t quite know how to tell you this but

In reply to Easy

M$ currently has a Plug In for Office 2007 which is an accounting package. Currently it doesn’t work on Vista but when it eventually does and as it’s free at the moment what is the need to buy Accounting Packages like Intuit or MYOB who have the lions share of the market now?

The reason is that M$ wants to Dominate the world with it’s products and they are not concerned in how they achieve this. They have previously blatantly broken laws and when they loose the Court Battle they act all sorry and pay the fine out of the Petty Cash Tin and then continue on exactly as they where previously the only difference is that now there is no competition as they have gone broke so it is the End User and those who support them who suffer.

While Competition is good a complete monopoly is bad for business and M$ in particular as they have now grown so Big and Cumbersome that they are unable to change direction at a moments notice and proceed down a new path as technology develops hence we are still using 32 Bit OS & Software when there have been 64 Bit CPU’s and M’Boards out for years that work quite well. When we moved from 16 to 32 Bit computing M$ was a leader of the pack but ever since they have been floundering in the wake of the technological advancements which have occurred, The main reason where there is not currently more 64 Bit Software available is that M$ has crushed the opposition to such an extent that they are not capable of developing any 64 Bit Software until it becomes the norm. In the meantime M$ is incapable of producing any 64 Bit software because they are too busy building their existing 32 Bit software and proceeding along blindly.

M$ today is what IBM was in 1985 and it will be to their disadvantage this situation continuing.

Col

Col: Oh well…

In reply to Easy

.
Maybe something good might come out of Microsoft’s apparent short memory of their near-death experience in the antitrust case. The way I see it, Microsoft is clearly over the line in a number of ways. All it will then take is a new administration in Washington D.C. that goes after them over it. It could happen. A Hilary Clinton administration would probably do it, right after taking money away from Exxon. :0 :^0

Microsoft bundling a personal accounting package into Office 2007 would not have made me stop using Quicken. I stopped upgrading Office at Office 2000. I just didn’t see any good reason to spend the money. And, it’s completely moot now. I switched to OpenOffice full-time last week (very happy so far, the MS Word and Excel bits on the HDD are getting lonely) as part of my project to permanently move to Linux full-time.

Good plan, rickk — attack the person rather than the argument, as usual.

In reply to Easy

I’ll ignore the stuff that doesn’t actually even come close to addressing what I said in a substantive manner. I mean really — what do you expect from TechExec2’s question? Do you think he’s trying to prove something by saying that the [b]very instant[/b] Microsoft products hit the market all competition evaporates? That’s not just absurd. It’s asinine. No, his point is that Microsoft eliminates competition via anticompetitive practices, and it’s just about futile as an ISV to attempt to establish a long-standing market for software meant to run on MS Windows. If you violate the spirit of the question with your answers that seek loopholes in the phrasing of the question, I’ll point out where your answers are clearly not particularly responsive to the intent of the question.

“[i]One question for you Apotheon. Isn’t it a goal of all businesses to beat or even eliminate their competitors?[/i]”
It’s a goal of many businesses, to be sure, but that’s only because they’ve confused their own success with others’ failure. The real goal should not be destroying competition, but rather profiting. If competitors fall by the wayside because they fail to maintain a profitable business model, so be it — but taking spiteful aim at the competition just because destroying other companies seems like “success” to you is kind of a losing strategy in the long run.

“[i]Microsoft has plenty of programs built into Windows that suck compared to 3rd party solutions.[/i]”
That’s the only reason the third-party improved software stays in business — and even then it doesn’t always work out for them, if Microsoft sets out to destroy them for having the temerity to catch Microsoft’s attention, as TechExec2 pointed out.

Hal’s Obsession w/ 64 Bit

In reply to Easy

I know you’d marry the first 64 bit motherboard you could if it were legal, but Hal, get over this obsession. Every post you have on here somehow goes back to 64 bit.

There are far too many reasons why 64 bit computing hasn’t caught on than to merely blame MS.

rickk: I am really growing tired of reading your adolescent posts.

In reply to Easy

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Marry the motherboard? I would expect to hear a comment like that from a 14-year old. You really belong on MySpace if you’re going to post like that. You could offer a lot more adult-level input here. I know you could.

Apotheon

In reply to Easy

Just because ISV’s, and that was my point, struggle, is neither here nor there.

Microsoft faces competition from all areas. To construct the question so that only MS ISV Partners count, is deceiving at best.

Aside from Win XP, Office 2003, SQL and VS 2003, I don’t know if I have a single piece of MS software on my PC.

Virtually all of my utilities and various all pieces of software are non-MS. MS typically has something to address my needs, but I have found other companies do a better job.

So, that being said, where is all this all dominating, competitor crushing MS?

. . . ?

In reply to Easy

Are you serious, rickk? Are you really that incapable of understanding the point that TechExec2 brought up?

Holy cow. I don’t even know what to say to that. It’s a bit like asserting that the question “Can you provide me some examples of the sky being weird colors like red on a sunny day?” as a rhetorical question meant to demonstrate that the sky is usually blue is too constraining.

My OH my

In reply to Easy

Poor Rickk doesn’t understand just how long 64 Bit CPU and computers have been available does he?

But for your Piece of Mind Rickky Boy never look at a 2007 Version of Exchange as [b]Guess What the Production version is all 64 Bit[/b] and is made that way because M$ needs the extra Mailbox Space and number of mailboxes that are available under a 64 Bit Piece of Software then there is the extra space available for rules in Exchange that simply isn’t available in the 32 Bit previous versions that M$ made, as well as selling a 64 Bit OS for it to run on.

So if you are looking at migrating to Exchange 2007 you will be stuck running a 64 Bit Server which are freely available today in almost every form possible. No actually come to think of it with any new Hardware it’s all 64 Bit Compatible so the real question is [b]Why am I paying for something that can perform far better than the software that is being loaded onto it will allow it to perform?[/b] That is like buying a V8 and then insisting on putting the cheapest fuel possible into it and then wondering why it no longer works as well as it did when you got it new.

But with the available Software in the form of both OS and Applications to run on the OS’s there is yet other than 1 Program nothing that will run on a 64 Bit Platform properly if you have to stick to the Windows Products.

Of course Linux has had this licked for several years now with working 64 Bit OS and software so it’s really M$ who is dragging the chain and preventing people getting what they have paid for. 😀

As soon as you accept this you all begin to see that M$ has many cracks with large gapping holes that leak all over the place and cost the customers money they could be better spent elsewhere. :^0

Perhaps you should attempt to avoid those M$ Trained Vampire Bats which turn you into a M$ ZOMBIE who is incapable of seeing any alternatives that may be available. :p

[b]Actually I don’t want to Marry a 64 Bit M’Board but I do want my 64 Bit computers to work properly as I’ve paid my hard earned money for them so I expect to get what I pay for which currently isn’t happening.[/b] B-)

Col

Giving MS Too Much Credit

In reply to I wasn’t speaking about bloat

Yes, MS crushes some of their competitors. But dude, please come up with “newer” technology as examples.

LANtastic (give me a break), Netscape (killed themself), Symantec (resource hog), WinFax (oh my, multi-functions are cheap and enterprises have servers for that), ProComm and QModem (how old are you?), Stacker (well before my time), McAfee (crapware), Real Player (should be classified as malware), Windows Backup (stinks to high heaven), Adobe PDF (bloatware).

The only one I’ll concede to you is VMware. But then again, times are a changing. It isn’t about virtualization anymore, that’s dime a dozen. It’s now about manageability, replication, porting, etc.

MS has plenty of competition, but to think for a second that once a 3rd party corners a market that MS should sit around and let them rack in the millions instead of themselves is foolish.

[i]THANK YOU[/i] for a [i]GREAT LAUGH[/i]!! :^0 :^0 :^0

In reply to Giving MS Too Much Credit

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I really have to thank you. I got a [i]GREAT[/i] laugh out of reading your post!!

[b][i]”…Yes, MS crushes some of their competitors. But dude, please come up with “newer” technology as examples…”[/i][/b]

OF COURSE they are mostly all old companies, you idiot!! They are all FRIGGIN’ DEAD!! :^0 :^0 :^0

The dead are such a problem like that! They were usually born, and have definitely died, before all of the rest of us!!

That is so damn funny! A friggin’ laugh riot! People nearby are concerned about me! :^0

[b][i]”…The only one I’ll concede to you is VMware. But then again, times are a changing. It isn’t about virtualization anymore, that’s dime a dozen…”[/i][/b]

Of course virtualization is cheap now! Microsoft acquired one of the top competitors and is now offering Virtual PC for free download! You see the affect of Microsoft abusing its monopoly power. You’ve taken the first step.

—

You clearly do not understand the importance of controlling the power of monopolies and the problems they cause. Things are different for monopolies. The antitrust laws say so. Of course, they are selectively enforced, depending on who is in power in Washington D.C.

Clarify Please

In reply to [i]THANK YOU[/i] for a [i]GREAT LAUGH[/i]!! :^0 :^0 :^0

You said, “selectively enforced, depending on who is in power in Washington D.C.”

Are you really trying to connect the dots back to Bush? If you are, give me a break.

Hopefully, I read too much between those lines.

Bill Gates contributes almost equally to both political parties (in order to cover his azz no matter which party wins) and actually probably gives more to the Democrats.

So, how one can say who is in power at the time is beyond me.

One response on this (and only one).

In reply to Clarify Please

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[b][i]”…Are you really trying to connect the dots back to Bush?…”[/i][/b]
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Yes and no. It’s not partisan. But, it is directly affected by who runs Washington D.C. (i.e. [u]people[/u]). Microsoft money flowing to both parties IS designed as part of the antitrust defense.

But, you will notice that the antitrust suit was brought against Microsoft by the Clinton administration. And, the weak enforcement that followed has been during the Bush one.

I don’t want to engage in a political discussion here. Talk about futility! I only reluctantly mentioned this because it was necessary to explain why a convicted company is allowed to continue violating.

priorities, and other offices

In reply to Clarify Please

Do you think Presidents are the only public officials that have any say in the matter?

Obviously, the Bush administration has had much more unpleasant ideas on its agenda than dealing with Microsoft, so it’s not terribly surprising that the DOJ didn’t put much effort into enforcing terms of judgments and settlements during the Clinton Administration. It would be much easier for Microsoft to grease the right palms, eight or nine tiers down from the Presidency, and get away with it, while the higher-ups are distracted by stuff like the USA PATRIOT Act and Military Commissions Act, anyway.

Corruption need not always involve the President. I’m not saying it doesn’t involve the President in this case — but whether or not it does is something we really have no way of knowing.

M$ Anti-Trust = Parasite

In reply to [i]THANK YOU[/i] for a [i]GREAT LAUGH[/i]!! :^0 :^0 :^0

Foolishily I used to think that it was people that were jealous of Gates’ success, but I was wrong, not just wrong, but way out wrong. They were not jealous at all, they wanted to give other companies a place to breath without something sucking out their lifeblood.

In the insect world, where an insect that lives off other insects, or in the plant world where a plant lives off other plants, they are known as parasites. Parasites are organisms that use another organism’s tissue for their own.

Microsoft is just like this, a parasite!

Well said, Shaun.G!

In reply to M$ Anti-Trust = Parasite

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Microsoft [u]is[/u] a parasite. Microsoft is like a tick that has dug deep into the flesh of every single Microsoft customer (which means essentially the entire world). It is very difficult to get that blood sucker out! This issue is now crystal clear to me. That tick must be gotten out no matter what it takes to do it.

That nasty Vista WGA capricious de-activation thing meant Microsoft had turned on “me”…had lost respect for “me”…had lost respect for the “relationship”. They cannot take my money (and lots of it) AND expect me to submit to such abuse. So…I don’t care how pretty she is. That lying cheating b*tch Windows is out on her untrustworthy a** and she will not be welcomed back no matter how much she pleads and promises! :^0

Microsoft is a huge monster and will be very difficult to bring down. They sold $44 BILLION last year and project $50 BILLION this year. What a number! With that kind of cash running through their company, they are more economically powerful than many of the countries where they sell their products. XBOX has a serious hardware problem. Drop a billion dollars to fix it without batting an eye! Wow! :0

Windows needs to be brought down to about 50% market share. At that size, other companies will have a fighting chance to compete and provide products to customers.

Monopolies

In reply to WGA is what happens to you when you buy only from a monopoly

>> What the hell ever happened to that $89 Windows 95 upgrade? And the $149 full license? Why the hell is a Windows Vista upgrade $279 and a full operating system license $399? << OK ... yeah, it hurts to spend a little money - sure. Putting aside the problems that Vista is having (let's assume for a minute that it isn't having problems - that it's a "good" upgrade). Why is $279 considered such a high-priced upgrade? Let's face it - prices go up over time don't they? My wife can barely buy groceries for the 4 of us for 2 weeks for $300. You can't buy a really good set of tires for your car for much less than $300. However ... when it comes to software - everybody wants it cheap or for free. If you factor in the cost of R&D for Vista (or XP or any major software release) you can be pretty sure that it cost far more than $300 per license to develop - at least during the first few years. I think we're losing perspective here - just a little bit, folks. No, I don't plan to upgrade to Vista right now either - because XP Pro is very solid and works - but bitching about paying for the upgrades even at 300 bucks. Come on now! You probably spend more than that to buy a fish-finder for your bass boat! Try upgrading anything else high-tech and see what kind of pricing there is. Let's face it, folks - it costs MONEY to drive this industry. You should see the prices involved with upgrading equipment in private aircraft, boats, cars or anything. Why do we all-of-a-sudden get sticker shock when it's software? Beats me! Cheers, -CB 🙂

Still too costly–WAY too costly

In reply to Monopolies

1. You are obviously better paid than most of us if you think Vista is a bargain.
2. If R&D is so costly, and so necessary commercially, why is Linux so good and available so cheaply?
3. The list price increases on Vista far exceeds the rate of inflation. It’s feature set does not.
4. Microsoft has never hurt for profits even at the former prices.
5. Excessive profit is just as much at the heart of inflation as any other input cost such as raw material or labor (which is lagging inflation).
6. If I am making almost the same in constant dollars as when Win 95 came out, why should I pay so many more of those precious bucks to keep Microsoft’s stock price up?

Agreed

In reply to Monopolies

If you use Vista for 3 years (36 months), at $300 it costs you $8 a month or 26 cents a day to operate one of the best operating systems in the world.

For 26 cents a day you can browse the web, make movies, listen to music, download to your heart is content, etc.

Sounds like a deal to me. $8 a month. Netflix costs about $10 a month doesn’t it? I get more use out of my PC than I do my DVD player, that’s for sure.

26 cents a day. I spend more than that on chewing gum every day.

Nice arithmetic.

In reply to Agreed

Unfortunately, that doesn’t take into account the additional costs associated with it. For instance, in a job where I managed a network that was 85% Linux and the rest Windows except for a couple of SunOS and Solaris boxes, 60% of my time was consumed by Windows system maintenance.

Manpower is more expensive than licensing and hardware. Of course, the software licensing for Microsoft’s offerings has already overtaken hardware costs, and it seems intent on overtaking manpower costs as well.

That’s OK for a home appliance user

In reply to Agreed

it wasn’t worth the effort of calculating it out.

Office 2007, SQL 2005 and VS 2005 would have set me back ?3k, if I was still contracting.

It would have made more sense to buy an MSDN subscription.

Upgrade both my PCs, might still need XP, so that’s ?700. My desktop would choke on vista and I have no idea whether my laptop is compatible, or whether it will be.

Got to be looking at 5k, before I could earn the money to recoup the outlay.
Still I welcome the wonderful opportunity that is Vista, glad I went back to permanent.

Re:

In reply to That’s OK for a home appliance user

“Office 2007, SQL 2005 and VS 2005 would have set me back ?3k, if I was still contracting.

That’s the cost of doing business. Any other line of work would also incur costs.

“Upgrade both my PCs, might still need XP, so that’s ?700. My desktop would choke on vista and I have no idea whether my laptop is compatible, or whether it will be.”

So don’t upgrade. Right now, Vista is a want and not a need for 99% of the PC world.

You can’t say that

In reply to Re:

What about Bill and Steve, they need the money.
😀
Just pointing out it’s not just the OS that’s the new thing, change one thing at a time has always been a good idea in our game. Not something that MS buy into, though.

If I had been faced with this and MSDN subscription would have probably have been my best bet.

Of course, they’re probably losing money even …

In reply to Monopolies

… as I write this. R&D is sssssoooooooo expensive – especially with all the “new” ideas being developed at Redmond. \
Oh, wait a minute; musta slipped my mind; they had to “shelve” the neat new stuff before releasing “Longhorn” into ?. Then they had to make it more “secure” because of all the hacks going on with XP.

But they came back on track and implemented WGA so that they could shut down any user they wanted (not to forget machines which are just out of the box – and not even on line to phone the Mother$hip).

Now THAT’S R&D!

I can’t wait to spend $$$ to line their pocket$!!!

Vista Activation Cracked

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

See the story referenced below. Vista activation is now more apparent than real, but it’s not an unalloyed good thing. Personally, I think that the whole activation idea is a very bad idea, bad for users, and eventually bad for Microsoft — who might try a sensible pricing policy instead.
JBB

http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/networking/?p=218

Never Say Never… Again

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

Your “howl” of never using VISTA was said before by previous users of new M$ Operating System, getting ‘familiar’ with the registration changes from M$.
Eventually (and sooner than you will want to admit), you will use VISTA.

Yeah, but…

In reply to Never Say Never… Again

I know where you’re coming from, but I have reached a sort of threshold point at which I fail to see the added value in Vista compared with Linux. Microsoft has simply overshot its price point(s) and compared with Linux, it is neither reliable, nor feature rich. I have yet to find anything meaningful that Linux can’t do in some fashion, often better than Windows.

Sure . . .

In reply to Never Say Never… Again

I’ll probably end up using Vista a few times, too. I won’t spend any money on it, though. If I use it, it’ll be on someone else’s computer. I’ll do my best to avoid having to support it for a living. I’ll continue using FreeBSD at home.

While it’s probably not 100% true to claim I’ll never use Vista, it’s still probably true in all the ways that matter.

Nope. I was serious.

In reply to Never Say Never… Again

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[b][i]”…Eventually (and sooner than you will want to admit), you will use VISTA…”[/i][/b]

Did you copy that off the white board in the WGA project room in Redmond?

My post here is not a toothless tiger. I’m not ranting, howling, or whining. I’m leaving. I’m completely serious (1). And, unlike yourself, I [u]NEVER[/u] use the terms “M$” or “Windoze” or any such. I’m not fond of Microsoft anymore (haven’t been for a bunch of years), but I don’t need to express it with silly-assed name calling and insults (not intended to be a major insult to you, I hope you understand).

That said, I may use Vista for something. If things get “bad” enough, I might even buy a copy of Vista. Example: There might be a client, or partnership, or contract, or whatever, where Vista is required. I don’t “hate” Vista. It’s not against my “religion”. But, it will never be on the primary computers that I rely on every day. I won’t be running Vista Server as my server either.

Quite honestly, I think a lot of people dislike Vista and Vista-style WGA enough that there will be significant defections this time. You know Vista WGA is much more aggressive than the previous Windows XP WGA. And, Windows XP WGA is going to be “upgraded” to work like Vista in SP3. There is no escape, except going backwards to Windows 2000. Going backwards. What an appropriate way to describe all of this.

————————-

(1) The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=213495&messageID=2185615

Better Buy a Copy Soon Then…

In reply to Nope. I was serious.

There might be a client, or partnership, or contract, or whatever, where Vista is required.

So you end up buying it – MS have now won until the next time.

Why bother?

In reply to Better Buy a Copy Soon Then…

If client requires me to test something on MS Windows, I can get the client to provide me with a Microsoft Windows testing platform — and they can have it back when I’m done. I’m sure others can do the same. I don’t have any need to buy a copy of Vista.

That’s Real Professional

In reply to Why bother?

Everytime you do some Windows Vista consulting, you have to “borrow” one of their PC’s. Nice!

Sure, that works out fine for server related issues, but c’mon, you’ll end up buying a Vista license and you know it. It bread and butter income.

Yeah, it’s professional, rickk.

In reply to That’s Real Professional

When someone asks me to do work on a system I don’t personally own, I expect to have needed systems provided — either as a loaner, or compensated. Typically, compensation is what I get. That’s why I have two XP Pro CDs, one 2k Pro CD, and, well, I forget how many 98 CDs, lying around here.

Most of the time, if I have to provide support for something, I just do so on-site. If they expect me to do work elsewhere with systems I don’t own, I’m not going to go spend 50% of my pay on software licenses, and they know better than to expect that.

These days, I don’t do the sort of work that requires that sort of thing so much, so it’s not an issue any longer. It’s entirely possible that someone will want me to do extensive software testing on a Vista box at some point in the next five years, though, so I’ll probably have a Vista installer added to my collection.

I can only assume you haven’t done independent consulting, much. It’s not much different from being provided a computer as a corporate employee.

Most corporates prefer to provide the machine

In reply to Yeah, it’s professional, rickk.

and the environment. I’ve seen a few occasions where that wasn’t done and an arse was made of the job.

It cuts out a lot of unknowns. We are talking about plugging in strange kit here.

Oh it worked on my machine isn’t an excuse you want to give your client when it all goes nipples up!

Nope. I was serious.

In reply to Nope. I was serious.

That’s obvious – and after reading your original post and most of this thread it’s obvious that you’re making an intelligent decision. If you’ve used derogatory language, called Windows “crap” or anything else I haven’t noticed it.

The trouble with the discussions on this (and a lot of other boards I’ve been on) is that people get very “relgious” and defensive about all this. The bottom line is simply this: does the product you’re using do the job you need to do? That’s it. If it does, then use [or keep] it.

These partisan discussions over operating systems and vendors is worse than watching idiots fight over a college football game!

Cheers,

-CB 🙂

You make a very good point, CodeBubba

In reply to Nope. I was serious.

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I agree with you. The religious discussions are not very helpful to anyone. Honest fact-based discussion of pros and cons is helpful. And, if you have a solution that works for you, you are winning the battle.

P.S. So…which truck is better? Ford or Chevy? ]:) :^0

P.P.S. Just kiddin’. I NEVER discuss which truck is better.

Toyota *zing*

In reply to You make a very good point, CodeBubba

CodeBubba has a point, but at the same time, so much FUD has gone around about Linux lately, that it has to be squashed.

It’s irritating to hear the same FUD on open source over and over…they boil down to:
1) It’s open source, so “bad” code can be inserted
2) It’s obscure, so therefore it must be more secure
3) MS products are more secure because…uh…just because

Definitely.

In reply to Toyota *zing*

In my experience — yeah, definitely Toyota.

Haven’t Heard Those 3

In reply to Toyota *zing*

In this discussion.

While I’ve used Vista

In reply to Never Say Never… Again

I won’t *use* Vista. Why? As a testbed it stinks. Not only does it cause problems, but the whole deactivation thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The worst part is that Ballmer is claiming that WGA is going to be more locked down in the near future.

As a corporation, you cannot have one desktop magically deactivate because that could be a critical desktop. You can’t have one laptop deactivate, because it will make you look like a fool in a sales meeting.

While product activation is nothing new, the schema that WGA uses is. Not only is it nagware, but it makes it impossible to know if your systems will be up the next day or x of them will be deactivated.

Oh, I’ll be using it at work

In reply to Never Say Never… Again

at the very least I’ll have to prove the software works on it.

No choice, customers will buy the OS, the software they buy off us has to work on it.

So I’ve no choice and I can be de-activated on a whim, with absolutely no redress.

Can someone please explain in simple words why I’m meant to happy about this, because I’m just not getting it.

There are plenty of people who are happy with it apparently, surely one of you can explain it to this poor thicky why I should be skipping round my desk shouting yippee I got vista.

No reason at all…

In reply to Oh, I’ll be using it at work

…why you should be happy. WGA infringes on your right to use your personal property. That is, your computer. From that point of view, it may be illegal.

Well I okayed the EULA

In reply to No reason at all…

and I could put linux on and use it.

It would be interesting to see a court action for say loss of earnings through improper de-activation. Could easily happen to a contractor or a consultant, perhaps even a more standard small business. Could be a large one if it took a server out or deity forfend a cluster.

Everyone will have to hack windows.

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

MS doesn’t understand how easy it is to just hack their stupid OS. By being so insane with their activation and anti piracy bs all they’re doing is making sure that a MUCH larger percentage of users have hacked OS’s.

Why would you not hack your OS? I can’t think of a single reason besides having to redo it every time you installed an update that messed with the hack.

Here’s a truism that MS clearly doesn’t understand:
Anything created by a human mind can be beaten by a human mind.

So what they’re doing is telling the users of Vista “to use this software properly you need to break our activation”… well… one of two things are going to happen there… either people will break it and MS will be completely boned as their OS’s piracy security is shredded… or they won’t and the brand will be destroyed.

Frankly, I already know that Vista’s piracy security has been shredded… and it’s only going to get more shredded.

So, I’ll probably upgrade to vista at some point… I don’t know what version of it I’ll buy… but one thing is for sure, I’ll hack my OS so that it NEVER gives me a message like that. Ever.

First Off

In reply to Everyone will have to hack windows.

1) You’re a moron adding nothing to this conversation. If it is so easy to “hack” their software and you are just so incredibly knowledgable on this, share something to prove it. And I’m not talking about downloading some bit torrent.

2) I can think of a lot of really good reasons to not use their software illegally. One, I have morals and apparently you don’t. Two, legally you can get sued. Three, you can get your company sued. Four, if three happens you’re also out of a job.

3) Give some examples of Vista’s security being “shredded”. Yes, there are a few, but not too many just yet.

So, end of story. Your lack of professionalism here is quite apparent.

Microsoft does suck

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

There are many policies that MS have that are unexceptable .. but people seem to just get on buying it..
So lets not forget WIndows 98! The last operation system from MS the the user was sitll in control!

The fact that XP can only be loaded “played” on one machine is crazy. It’s like buying a music CD and be limited to playing it on one CD player. If I use one copy of the software on any machine, at a time, then it’s still one copy of software. If I move a hard drive to different motherboards, it’s still the same user. MS doesn’t have any problem with Windows Media Player copy one music cd to many machines!

And lets not forget their product life cycle policy. Could you imagine if Ford Motor Co. said “we no longer service your 5 year old car” We upgrade the software that runs your car, because we sold you something that never really worked in the first

Oh MS customers . don’t you love it? Keep buying defective products.. Will get it right someday.

“we no longer service your 5 year old car”

In reply to Microsoft does suck

They don’t after the 3 year or X miles warranty runs out – then you have to pay. You can PAY MS to support old software you know.

Not Win 98

In reply to “we no longer service your 5 year old car”

MS will no longer publish patches for WIN 98, only some secrity fixes. Check their product life cycle policy. YOu’ll only see a daylight saving fix from some third party vendor..
That’s ok the product life cycle on MS is coming to an end!!

Thats 9-10 Years Old then

In reply to Not Win 98

I was talking about 5 as the post said.

Well…

In reply to Not Win 98

1) There is good documentation out there already on taking the Win 2000 DST patch and modifying it for Win 98 (hint…it’s only a registry hack to begin with).

Since you are retired, I’m assuming you have at least the 20-30 minutes to figure that one out.

2) As for Win 98 and MS. They are doing exactly as promised years ago. 5 years mainstream support plus 5 more if you pay.

You’re lucky you’re getting security patches. Consider those a freebie.

Win 98 has been in use for about 9 years. It cost about $150 at the time. That’s 108 months or $1.38 per month or a little over 4 cents a day (good god, Linux may be free but your version of Windows is close too!) you’ve paid for that software since then.

That’s not worth it to you? You’re still driving your original Model T Ford aren’t you?

In the US

In reply to “we no longer service your 5 year old car”

The powertrain is warrantied for a minimum of 5 years and many auto manufacturers offer 6 and 7 year warranties.

Either way, even if I have to make a repair to the vehicle to keep it road worthy, I have the option of doing so and still have the ability to drive on the same roadway as a newer vehicle. I may not have all the same options that the newer vehicle has- cassette versus CD player, etc., but I am not barred from driving.

I think that it is reasonable that people are feeling empowered to make individual choices that are workable for them. I don’t get why it is that every time someone says that they are done with Microsoft, it ends up being a huge fight. Microsoft is nothing more than a software vendor. Many people re-select vendors. It is not a new thing.

Questions

In reply to Microsoft does suck

1) In what SPECIFIC ways am I not in control of my PC which has Win XP?

2) Did you know Windows can be moved from PC to PC if you purchase the correct version, namely, the retail copy as opposed to the heavily discounted OEM version?

AND, if all you do is say replace a faulty motherboard, you’re OEM version is still good.

3) Do you really think comparing Ford to Microsoft is fair?

Does your toaster manufacturer cover you 5 years later? TV manufacturer? Hell, my house is only under warranty for most things for 1 year. Only exceptions are things like the roof.

I know what your response will be. You’re not asking for it to be warrantable, just that they’ll work on it. Well, think about my examples above.

Your TV breaks 5 years after purchase. The repair bill comes in at $350. A new TV is only $500 and has all the new bells and whistles.

Compare to Windows. YES, after 5 years MS will still work on it but for a crazy rate somewhere in the thousands and thousands of dollars but no different than a $350 repair bill for your $500 TV. Keep in mind MS supports their software for 5 years under mainstream support and another 5 years after that.

So, instead of “fixing” your old Windows just like your TV, you go out and get the new latest and greatest with all the new bells and whistles.

Now, you may not like it this way, but man, news flash, this is the trend of the future and not just for MS, but all electronics.

So get used to it.

Well said

In reply to Questions

n

Answers

In reply to Questions

1) Can you tell me what information WGA is sending back to MS? Can you tell me why my VALID Vista key was suddenly deactivated?

I have no control of my PC if MS wants to turn me off, they can…plus I’ve no idea what WGA is sending back other than taking MS’s word for it.

2) Duh?

3) Yes. See Ford has recalls. So if I buy a Ford and something in CRITICALLY wrong with it, I get it fix for free, even if it is 5 years old. Same with TVs, same with your house.

MS has fixed so many CRITICAL flaws in just XP, that it makes the Ford Pinto look like it had a flawless safety record.

Enjoy

In reply to Questions

Well if XP is portable, that’s good news. But that not what many computer techs say.
I’m always suspect of OEM software and rather buy the retail version, and you’ve just given me another reason why!
As far as motherboard replacement, most techs say that your F’d. At any rate there is a process to change your software over, but as I understand it you have to call MS to do it.
But none of that address the concept of portablity. I can play my music in any machine of my choice, at anytime I want.My car player during the day and my home system at nite, etc, etc.

Yea I have many products that have lasted for more than 20yrs. There are many 1980 Cars around.( and Model T’s for that matter) The defference is that you don’t have to bring the car in to the shope every tuesday(MS tuesday’s bug releases)so the car will run correct.

And yes the repair bill maybe high .. but it’s my choice to fix or buy. Not the company. An the car company doesn’t give me a repair that stops the car from operating all together.

Hey enjoy your built in obsolesance! You’ll be at the mercy of MS for the rest of your life!

The Rats are winning!!

Re

In reply to Enjoy

“The difference is that you don’t have to bring the car in to the shop every Tuesday”

Wrong. The difference is in the complexity of the product. Not fair to compare a car with Windows.

And by the way, just how often does Linux need to be repaired so it runs correctly?

“And yes the repair bill maybe high .. but it’s my choice to fix or buy.”

You’re right. It is your choice. I ran Windows 98 on an old laptop until just recently. What’s stopping you?

“Hey enjoy your built in obsolescence!”

News flash! Planned obsolescence is a part of virtually any and all products you buy.

Only from the cheap rubbish producers of products

In reply to Re

The better ones actually have their own divisions to support their older products and they don’t expect to be paid an Arm & a Leg to get that support.

But as you want to keep comparing Software to other products how about applying the M$ software to the Medical Diagnostic Equipment that is available. XP is currently Embedded into Ultra Sound Machines CAT Scanners then the new generation of MRI & PET Scanners all of which will be around for a very long time to come so why should the 20 Million $ PET Scanner that was bought last month be considered as Obsolete because XP is no Longer the current Embedded Version of Windows Available?

Actually this is one place where M$ has to support the companies that they agreed to sell Embedded Products to as none of the companies concerned whould have accepted a 5 year turn around on their Medical Diagnostic Equipment simply because they could never expect the units to be paid for let along make a profit in that short a time unless the costs for these procedures where increased by a factor of 10.

So my friend would you be willing to make up the difference between the Medical Insurance payment for a MRI that works on an Embedded form of Windows XP and the cost of the actual scan because the machine only has a 5 year life expediency at best?

Col

oh dearie me

In reply to Re

“[i]The difference is in the complexity of the product. Not fair to compare a car with Windows.[/i]”
If you’re trying to say that MS Windows is more complex than a car, and that’s why you don’t have to bring a car into the shop every Tuesday, you really don’t know much about cars. Have you ever seen the inside of an automatic transmission? Do you know how fuel injectors work? Are you aware that there are computers in every new car rolling off the line these days?

Have you any idea how unbelievably complex the engineering of a hybrid automobile like the Toyota Prius is?

Microsoft is dead simple by comparison, [b]and it doesn’t even have any moving parts[/b].

“[i]And by the way, just how often does Linux need to be repaired so it runs correctly?[/i]”
Pretty much never. Oh, sure, I get software updates all the time on my Linux and FreeBSD systems, but they’re [b]upgrades[/b] to software versions, and that includes [b]everything[/b], not just the stuff that’s part of the OS. Actual security fixes and functionality-shattering-bug fixes are few and far between.

“[i]Planned obsolescence is a part of virtually any and all products you buy.[/i]”
Thank goodness that doesn’t so much apply to open source software.

Re:

In reply to oh dearie me

Ok, sure cars are complex but when was the last time you saw a car hacker? Yes, I understand that it is actually something to worry about soon, but really…

Does Ford or GM or whoever have to worry about their automatic transmission being hacked into so that it spontaneously goes in reverse instead of forward?

Exactly what protections do you get with your car? A lock, maybe a security system or even a steer wheel lock. Wow!

Get over yourself man. You aren’t happy in life unless you take the opposite position as me.

Cars ARE complex, mechanical more so but still are very complex.

Software is different and you know it.

Yes, I would say Windows is exponentially more complex than a car in many, many ways.

this is rich . . .

In reply to Re:

“[i]Ok, sure cars are complex but when was the last time you saw a car hacker?[/i]”
Haven’t you heard of AAA? These guys come on-call to pick the locks on cars when people lock their keys inside. I know two guys in Florida who make money opening car doors for people — one as an independent businessman (actually a locksmith) and the other as an employee of a small vehicle service company.

“[i]Exactly what protections do you get with your car? A lock, maybe a security system or even a steer wheel lock. Wow![/i]”
. . . none of which work worth a damn when a professional car thief decides he wants the car.

“[i]Get over yourself man. You aren’t happy in life unless you take the opposite position as me.[/i]”
I’m pretty sure I was in this thread before you came along.

“[i]Yes, I would say Windows is exponentially more complex than a car in many, many ways.[/i]”
I guess you, unlike me, have never gone so far as to change a starter.

Top 10 things you need to know about Longhorn Server.

In reply to Re:

Well we’re back.

Jeff and I have been spending some time at the yearly internal conference at Seattle where we receive a lot of the early technical information that we will be disseminating over the year. For us this year is all about Longhorn Server. We’re going to kickoff with some sessions on the “Top 10 Things You Need to Know about Longhorn Server”. It’s going to be a broad coverage of what are the new things that will make a difference in your business and will start late this month or early April. Watch out for it at a user group or Microsoft TechNet event near you. Once we’ve covered that we plan to spend the rest of the year just talking about each of those 10 things right up till the launch of Longhorn Server. We’ve already started some of this off talking about Network Access Protection. In fact, I’ve completed some screen casts on my blog to show you how NAP works in an IPSEC scenario and recently a demo video of Windows Server Virtualisation was released too. You can expect some depth information into both of these throughout the year! Don’t forget to register to get notified when Longhorn Server Beta will be available.

Also – I’ve been progressively knocking off units over the past year on a Masters degree in Information Security through Charles Sturt University. It’s amazing how quickly things like this progress! I’ve just started the IT Risk Management unit after passing the Project Management unit. This IT Risk Management unit is a great foundation for anyone thinking about better security practices. I’m enjoying this one quite a lot as it’s reinforcing a lot of the security messages that we have been talking about for awhile now. Once this one is complete there are only three units to go and I’m done!

Till next time

Cheers,
Michael

Perhaps you would care to educate the rest of us lowly hacks about this amassing new product coming from Microsoft? As you can no doubt see it’s one of the TechNet articles and is a simple cut & paste so if you don’t like the spelling or grammar complain to M$ not me.

Col

He missed one.

In reply to Questions

I like jmgarvin’s answers, but he missed one:

“[i]Now, you may not like it this way, but man, news flash, this is the trend of the future and not just for MS, but all electronics.[/i]”
We’re talking about software, not electronics.

Of course, not all software is going that way. In fact, the opposite is happening: thanks to the increasing market penetration of open source software, the trend in some parts of the IT industry is toward free upgrades and fixes in perpetuity.

BS, Total BS

In reply to He missed one.

“free upgrades and fixes in perpetuity”

None sense. Most open source projects only provide fixes, upgrades, etc for as long as the community deems the project still useful.

Yes, since the code is open source, someone else could take over, but in reality, this rarely happens.

One of the difficults of open source is choosing software that will be supported long term. Hence, the success of companies like Novell, Red Hat, etc.

Long term support is not the real difficulty of open source

In reply to BS, Total BS

Closed source companies go bust, you don’t get support then. They upgrade and use enforced obsolescence to get another purchase. You can have support on something different, whether you wanted it or needed it.

If you go open source, you can’t rely on the contributors, unless you choose to become one. Too many take the free in open source as I get this for nothing. If you don’t contribute, you are guaranteed nothing. You can ride on the back of a community for so long, don’t be surprised if they shrug you off or you end up somewhere else though.

Closed source and support is simply a way of extending the revenue stream past the initial purchase.

Free open source and support is a way of getting a revenue stream.

With one you buy the support to get a return on the investment you’ve already made, the other you don’t invest in unless you are going to get a return.

Discounting implementation costs of course, which isn’t something I’d advise anyone to do in a real life scenario.

All That Being Said

In reply to Long term support is not the real difficulty of open source

Can you recommend an open source, ERP software and management solution for the residential home building industry?

And I mean one specifically written for the home building industry and not some generic, could be altered piece.

Didn’t think so.

So, while we may be trapped in our revenue stream producing support model of our closed source software, apparently we don’t have other alternatives.

The residential home building industry just isn’t large enough for the open source model to work.

There are essentially two approaches to this problem. One, smaller builders like the one I work for buy closed source software and pay a few hundred dollars per house built for licensing and support. Not bad, a few hundred dollars off the costs of a $200,000 house.

Two, the larger home builders write their own software…way out of our league both time, money and otherwise.

And trust me, knowing what I know about this business, no open source code writer in their right mind would take this on.

Open source is not free as in beer !

In reply to All That Being Said

An open source developer could and would take it on. If you paid him or her.

They could even do it closed source and might as well if it was too specific to be useful to another business.

Of course you can’t get a free open source product to manage the specifics of your business, can’t get a free closed one either can you?

You are better off with an optimised solution anyway, the off the shelf suite type packages are a crap fit, full of bloat and a right pain to implement.

Been there, done that.

Re: Open source is not free as in beer !

In reply to All That Being Said

Exactly my point!

I could pay a developer to write it in open source or I could do what we are doing right now. Closed source, existing company, proven track record, many large clients, guarantees, and free support with a contract.

End of story.

So really, the argument boils down to this. For our company and our application, there is NO DIFFERENCE between open source and closed source.

not quite true, rickk

In reply to All That Being Said

Here’s an example of how a company with intelligent people making the decisions might do things:

1. Choose an open source solution that’s close.

2. Pay someone (outside consultant or employee) to customize it.

3. Enjoy the fact that in the end it probably cost considerably less than an end-to-end proprietary custom workup from scratch would cost, and still ended up being more customized to the company’s needs than the proprietary solution would probably provide, in addition to which the open source solution has a proven track record of stability because it has been used by other companies for years.

Re re Linux is not free as in beer

In reply to All That Being Said

Did I miss something?

Your contention that you can’t get business specific software for free means open source is no use.

I refuted it, quite well I thought too.

One does not equal the other, OurBuilding Software is not some thing you are going to see on the shelves, any more than you are going to see an open source effort.
One has no commercial reward, the other is not needed by enough people to generate an interest.
The same is not true of the operating system, the database server, the web server, office automation….
That’s where you get the benefits of open source, IF you are prepared to contribute.

Re: not quite true, rickk

In reply to All That Being Said

Your theoretical arguments sound good on paper or in this case electronically 🙂 however, they just don’t hold water in the real world.

1) Name one open source solution that is close? One that encompasses everything we need in a tightly integrated package. One piece of software that does it all.

Marketing, prospecting, finance, accounting, construction, estimating, warranty, etc.

We have that today and it only cost a few hundred dollars per house built. Yes, it is priced on number of houses built not a flat rate.

2) Oh yeah, there’s just so many open source programmers running around Indiana with Linux skills, programming skills, web skills (our app’s sales function is on-line), and building experience.

I’ve been down that road before. In my last job, we had a programmer on staff for over 7 years making in excess of $100,000 a year and the software he designed still wasn’t done.

3) Proven track record with other companies? You can’t even name a single application that does what I need but you’ll make that claim?

Once again, your theories, ideas and conspiracies all sound good on paper, but not in reality.

Get out more. Stop playing around with Linux on the desktop for home users, business drones who only need office apps, email and INTERNET access, and start getting dirty. ERP isn’t that simple.

Lastly, think about it you moron. Essentially, what we have is exactly what you are saying. They just have made it on a MS platform and refuse to allow others to benefit from the last 10 years of their hard work.

Why would one invest millions of dollars in a product and just give it away?

That’s ludicrous, and you know it.

In reply to All That Being Said

I’m sure the fact you know it is the reason you asked — you hoped I’d fall for that lame trick.

“[i]Name one open source solution that is close? One that encompasses everything we need in a tightly integrated package. One piece of software that does it all.[/i]”
Not only can I not provide you an answer without knowing more about what your company needs, but I [b]won’t[/b] unless you pay my consulting fees. I don’t work for free.

“[i]Yes, it is priced on number of houses built not a flat rate.[/i]”
For software, or for service/support? If for software, you’re getting ripped off.

“[i]Oh yeah, there’s just so many open source programmers running around Indiana with Linux skills, programming skills, web skills (our app’s sales function is on-line), and building experience.[/i]”
Uhh . . . you’re hiring programmers based on whether they’ve built houses? Wow, your hiring practices [b]suck[/b].

“[i]Proven track record with other companies? You can’t even name a single application that does what I need but you’ll make that claim?[/i]”
I refer you to above comments, re stupid questions that don’t have answers.

How about you tell me what MS Windows-based software solution will work for my development needs? Go ahead. Tell me what’ll work. When you’re done not coming up with an answer because I haven’t given you any details, I’ll refer you (again) to above comments. Then perhaps you will have achieved enlightenment.

. . . but I doubt it.

“[i]Stop playing around with Linux on the desktop for home users, business drones who only need office apps, email and INTERNET access, and start getting dirty. ERP isn’t that simple.[/i]”
I can only assume you’ve never:

A) looked inside an ERP system
B) done a Google search related to ERP systems on Linux

ERP is just database, CRUD, and interface. It’s one of the simplest types of software development on the planet. The difficult part is network infrastructure and merging — which is orders of magnitude simpler than merging operations in other areas of software development. That’s okay, though. You, unlike me, don’t do software development. I don’t actually expect you to know this stuff.

I’m a little confused by why [b]you[/b] expect you to know this stuff, though.

“[i]you moron[/i]”
Troll.

“[i]Why would one invest millions of dollars in a product and just give it away?[/i]”
Who said anything about doing that?

Clearly, you’re not only not a developer, but not an economist, either.

Come off it.

In reply to BS, Total BS

You can have support any way you like with open source software. Sure, the project might dry up if there are only six users on the planet — but if one of them deems it useful enough, he or she can create a support infrastructure for it as well, [b]with complete access to everything needed for comprehensive end-to-end support[/b]. Meanwhile, if Microsoft went out of business tomorrow, [b]it would still be illegal to reverse-engineer the software, duplicate it, and provide comprehensive end-to-end support[/b]. Meanwhile, as long as there [b]is a project[/b], you can get free upgrades and updates. Microsoft, meanwhile, “sunsets” support on software while [b]millions of people are still using it[/b] in an attempt to [b]force them to spend more money[/b].

That’s a pretty big difference.

All ffee for now

In reply to BS, Total BS

then in 10 Years time once everybody has migrated – WHAP – we now want to charge you and there is nothing you can do about it. Watch, this will happen!!!!!!!!!!!

When it does – remember…TechMail told you this would happen so you have no excuse.

Not without an even bigger corporate corruption

In reply to All ffee for now

of the legislature. You can always maintain it yourself.
Course the corps might make that illegal as well. Not a problem though, we’ll either be revolting already or saluting the logo and not giving a flying F

Open Source software

In reply to He missed one.

This is my last post on this subject.
Your absolutely right. Open Source software is the answer to MS. (and I like M$ someone wrote.)

I have some clients that still use V3.1 for wordprocess task and that’s good enough.
Forward and Backward compatiblity is not new concepts, and before MS stole the OS from Berkely, it was the standard of software.

Copyright laws have changed a great deal in the last 25yrs to accommidate the Music, publishing, and software industries. Copyrights were never meet to last forever.

Having the copyrights on the OS is like having the copyright on the printing press or pen. No book can be written without a payment to the printing press inventor. It stiffels creativity. Open source has stuggled because of that great sucking sound of MS, but it must succeded in the future.

Remember, MS is slowing forcing user to stop using “their software” whether it works well enough for them or not.

There are still many 56 Chevy’s out there, and noone is forcing them to stop driving them.

Anyway, this debate has been going on for nore than 3 decades and it’s not going to stop here.
You pay what you expect to pay!! Good luck to us all.

DST Test

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

This is a DST test. The timestamp on this message should be about 3:05 AM PDT.

[Update: Passed! Good job TR!]

Nice!

In reply to DST Test

LMFAO.

Newsflash: Microsoft [i]DEFEATS THE PIRATES[/i]

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

.
I think Microsoft has done an outstanding job of making Windows Vista very UN-appealing to pirates….and to customers too.

[b]Many ordinary legitimate actions trigger Vista DE-activation[/b]

From the Microsoft Knowledge Base (1):

[i]”…You may be prompted to activate Windows Vista on a computer on which Windows Vista activation was not previously required. Although this problem rarely occurs, [u]it may occur during typical use of a Windows Vista-based computer[/u]. For example, this problem may occur under one or more of the following conditions: (1) [u]You install a device driver[/u]. (2) [u]You install a program[/u]. (3) [u]You run a new program[/u]. (4) [u]You remove a program[/u]…”[/i]

:0 :0 :0

Windows [i]VISTA[/i]. The “Woe” Starts Now(tm).

[Update 3/15/2007: Microsoft changed the referenced page after I quoted it. Changing the text in the KB page changes nothing about the problem. See explanation here:

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=212977&messageID=2191613

]

————————–

(1) Microsoft Knowledge Base article on capricious DE-activation
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/931573

And how many times can you Activate Vista

In reply to Newsflash: Microsoft [i]DEFEATS THE PIRATES[/i]

Without needing to resort to ringing M$ up on a Telephone? I’ll bet that it’s a lot fewer times that the number of Designed in Anti Piracy conditions. 😀

OH I see that EULA not only says Original Hardware but Original Software as when Vista was originally Activated and any extra or if any is removed requires a New Vista License. :^0

Col

Vista’s WGA is never going to de-activate on me

In reply to And how many times can you Activate Vista

…because I won’t be using it! :^0

Proof?

In reply to And how many times can you Activate Vista

Back it up with proof or stop the FUD.

Where exactly does it say original software or else you need a new license?

You are joking, I know, except you frame it as being serious to work up the ignorant masses.

Don’t worry when you eventually grow up

In reply to Proof?

You’ll come to understand sarcasm and the use of the Emotions to make it obvious to all but the Brain Dead who want to take it seriously. 😀 :^0 😀 :^0 😀 :^0

[b]GET THE IDEA[/b]

TE2

In reply to Newsflash: Microsoft [i]DEFEATS THE PIRATES[/i]

You are slowly turning in to the stereotype ‘MS Basher’. Shame on you.

Nahhh

In reply to TE2

.
I’m not a mindless Microsoft basher. When I speak ill of Microsoft, I can back it up. It ain’t braggin’ if you can do it. It ain’t bashin’ if you can back it up. I am just telling the truth.

Of course, I admit that I [u]am[/u] having a little fun here. This is just SO ABSURD! What the hell is wrong with Microsoft that it is causing its own paying customers so many problems like this?

You can tell I have some passion about this. It’s motivated by sadness and disgust about a vendor I used to revere. I don’t want to leave Windows. I just can’t stay.

[post deleted by admin]

In reply to Nahhh

[post deleted by admin]

Message was edited by: The Trivia Geek

Class?

In reply to [post deleted by admin]

Weren’t you just disputing Aaron Baker’s claim above that you have no class?

I think you’ve just made his point on that score.

in a pig’s eye

In reply to TE2

All TechExec2 did was quote the MS Knowledge Base. How’s that “mindless bashing”?

Why post it in the first place?

In reply to in a pig’s eye

It was the intent of the post that was the bashing and not the actual quote.

By this premise, I could find a quote about anything, post it and get away with whatever I want. After all…it was only a quote.

The Intent: Right from the source

In reply to Why post it in the first place?

.
My intent in posting that was to show [u]proof[/u] that Microsoft itself officially acknowledges that this capricious DE-activation behavior, triggered by normal actions taken by software and the user of the computer, is BY DESIGN. It does not require an aberrant or “bad” program.

This information further reinforces my decision to move to Linux. And, it might help someone else understand the truth about this and make the right decision for themself (their own decision).

A few posters here have been very generous to Microsoft and/or made unsubstantiated and incorrect claims about what is really going on. Examples:

[b][i]”…a fix is out for this issue. Go here:…”[/i][/b]

No. This is [bad] OS behavior by design. The “fix” merely adjusts the behavior of the “trigger”. The “bomb” was not removed. I don’t want a “bomb” in my operating system, not even a “safe” one.

[b][i]”…there aren’t random or indiscriminate times when the “deactivation” occurs…”[/i][/b]

Random or indiscriminant: Apparently not. Capricious: Yes. By design.

[b][i]”…if something changes a system setting I’d want to know about it. In this case a setting changed that could cause many more problems than windows stopping. You can contact MS via phone to restart the system if it stopped working AND you don’t lose your data…”[/i][/b]

I would want to know also. How about a log entry? If it is really serious like an unauthorized change to the HOSTS file, how about a pop-up message?

[b][i]”…Over-reaction me thinks…”[/i][/b]

and

[b][i]”…in the case of Ed Bott’s game it was a game-protection piece of software nGameGuard that caused the issue. Contacting the game producer to update their version of this piece of software fixes the issue…”[/i][/b]

and

[b][i]”…So I say that this looks to be rubbish on the software installation / activation issue…”[/i][/b]

and

[b][i]”…It was a BETA. Hence anything like this happening is why the BETA was created. Once the final version comes out there will be no such problem…”[/i][/b]

and…drumroll please…

[b][i]”…This is a lie it never happened…”[/i][/b]

No. This is [bad] Vista OS behavior by design.

[b]The better question to ask yourself[/b]

Why does it trouble you so much to hear this truth?

You don’t have to answer. I already know. And, I understand.

edits…various corrections

Because He Didn’t Even Quote It Correctly

In reply to in a pig’s eye

Follow the link…drone.

I had another look . . .

In reply to Because He Didn’t Even Quote It Correctly

The exact phrasing isn’t (currently) the same. The message is. I skimmed last time I checked it out, and it was effectively the same as what TechExec2 said, though I didn’t look closely enough to determine whether it was a word-for-word quote.

In retrospect, I should have been more careful, and identified it as a near-exact paraphrase rather than a quote.

“[i]Follow the link…drone.[/i]”

. . . but your penchant for wholly gratuitous insults is nearly enough to have made me simply dismiss your statement out of hand rather than actually check whether the statement in the title of your post was truthful. I suppose I shouldn’t expect any better from someone like you, however, when nearly every move you’ve made at TR seems hell-bent on stirring up trouble without any regard for well-reasoned, honest, respectful discussion.

I quoted the page exactly. Microsoft has since changed it.

In reply to I had another look . . .

.
See:

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=212977&messageID=2191613

.
.
.

Thank you!

In reply to I quoted the page exactly. Microsoft has since changed it.

I appreciate your efforts in clearing that up. I thought I’d seen your text there when I skimmed it the first time, but wasn’t sure.

I had a feeling it wasn’t quite the eeeeeeevil machinations of one of us slimy nasty Linux users he so loves to hate.

How to deal with a paranoid

In reply to I had another look . . .

The best way to deal with someone as paranoid as rickk is to ignore them. Pandering to their paranoia just makes things worse. They don’t know enough to praise in public and rebuke in private. Even worse is the aspect of insult they give which would have gotten them shot in the 1800’s.

I may wear thick glasses but I was taught to shoot by a Purple Heart recipient Marine, my dad.

GRF

I quoted the page exactly. Microsoft has since changed it.

In reply to Because He Didn’t Even Quote It Correctly

.
See:

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=212977&messageID=2191613

Warning label needed

In reply to Newsflash: Microsoft [i]DEFEATS THE PIRATES[/i]

[i]Attention![/i]

Attempting to use your computer for its intended purpose may result in capricious de-activation of Windows Vista. In such a case, you will be prompted to activate Windows Vista again (and again, and again, and again, and again…).

:^0

In reply to Warning label needed

…

Ok, Now I’ve Figured You Out

In reply to Newsflash: Microsoft [i]DEFEATS THE PIRATES[/i]

FUD, FUD and more FUD.

I followed your included link and guess what? Even though you include your remarks in quotes, that isn’t what the KB article says at all.

As a matter of fact, you only got the first sentence correct!

Your second sentence is correct as well, after you skip two other sentences and take it out of context.

A couple of things:

1) There are two patches available to help resolve the situation

2) The problem is caused by sloppy software coding by 3rd party vendors

3) Not all versions of Vista are affected

You’re starting to remind me of the mainstream media today. You have an agenda before you write the article.

I’ll respond to some of that.

In reply to Ok, Now I’ve Figured You Out

“[i]There are two patches available to help resolve the situation[/i]”
Based on the statements made by TechExec2 regarding the desire to avoid such intolerable errors in the future, I hardly think that’s a very comforting resolution to the problem.

“[i]The problem is caused by sloppy software coding by 3rd party vendors[/i]”
There’s this principle of software design, with which you may want to familiarize yourself: be liberal in what you accept, strict in what you emit. In other words, if your software blows the hell up because someone wrote other software in an unexpected manner, there’s [b]something wrong with your software[/b].

“[i]I followed your included link and guess what? Even though you include your remarks in quotes, that isn’t what the KB article says at all.

As a matter of fact, you only got the first sentence correct!

Your second sentence is correct as well, after you skip two other sentences and take it out of context.[/i]”

I’ll leave aside for the moment the fact that you said that only the first sentence was correct, then said that the second sentence was also correct. I understand what you meant, and I’ll assume for the moment that the way you phrased that was a result of sloppiness rather than a result of an attempt to put extra spin on it to make someone look “more wrong”. I’ll even ignore for now the fact that, while the third sentence wasn’t a word-for-word reproduction, it does succinctly collect information from several parts of the page in an accurate summary.

You’re right. It looks like a complete, direct quote. I’m curious about why that is. Did the text on the page change? Was the quote copied from the wrong place? Was there some kind of intentional deception going on?

You’ve actually said something that is, for the most part, at least approaching reasonability. Congratulations. Maybe you can learn from this experience, and do even better next time.

Microsoft [i]CHANGED THE PAGE I QUOTED[/i]

In reply to Ok, Now I’ve Figured You Out

.
I quoted the page exactly as it was written. That’s why I put quotation marks around it. I would not have done that otherwise. Microsoft has since changed it. Note that it was revised on the same day I made my post.

Want proof? Check (1)(2)(3).

[b]What we know about Microsoft[/b]

Microsoft is aware that this is a major problem. They are tweaking their KB article and issuing “fixes” to refine the way the “trigger” of the “bomb” works to reduce the number of “explosions” experienced by innocent people. The only fix that is acceptable is to REMOVE THE BOMB. They should stop messing with the trigger! So much for the claims of smarts and of great executive management in Redmond.

The web is on fire talking about this very serious problem (4)(5). Anecdotal evidence from Google: There are now 1.1 MILLION hits on these four words (up from 972,000 two days ago) : windows vista wga problem

[b]In closing[/b]

I have sufficient experience and knowledge to know [u]from the very moment[/u] I heard of this idiotic Vista WGA nonsense that I would never use Vista. I was so moved about it, that I posted my outrage here. Everything I have seen or heard since then has reaffirmed that decision.

There is no “advantage” in the Windows Genuine Advantage. It is a STUNNINGLY STUPID and arrogant thing that Microsoft has done. It is a mistake that a very young person would make. It is a mistake one would find in a shareware program that everyone refuses to use.

It is a mistake in an operating system that I refuse to run.

I bet millions of others will be just like me. Sorry, rickk. I know this troubles you. You had better get out of the (Microsoft) house. It’s on fire.

————————————

(1) Ed Bott’s blog quotes the KB article as I did
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=220

(2) Google finds many references, take your pick
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22You+install+a+device+driver%22+%22You+install+a+program%22+%22You+run+a+new+program%22+%22You+remove+a+program%22&btnG=Google+Search

(3) Cached version of the original page. This paged, dated 2/17/2007, will not last long before being refreshed with the current one dated 3/12/2007. (no cache of the actual page on the MS site…wonder why)
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:ARU9-1ws1O4J:www.kbalertz.com/Feedback.aspx%3FkbNumber%3D931573+site:kbalertz.com+931573&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

(4) 1.1 MILLION Google hits: windows vista wga problem
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=windows+vista+wga+problem&btnG=Search

(5) 1.32 MILLION Google hits: windows vista activation problem
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=windows+vista+activation+problem&btnG=Search

edit: Moved my comments about rickk to a separate post. Provide better references.

And, here’s something from me to you rickk…

In reply to Ok, Now I’ve Figured You Out

.
[b]What we know about YOU, rickk[/b]

You are buffoon who is desperate to follow and defend Microsoft at all costs. The facts have been repeatedly laid out in front of you, yet you fail to grasp, and/or fail to accept, the truth. And, when you THINK you have found some way to discredit me, you attack without even asking for clarification. This isn’t about ME, you idiot. It’s about Microsoft.

What the hell are you thinking? What about all of the indisputable facts? Even if you were right about me here, which you definitely were not, that would not change anything about what Microsoft has done. You are pathetically grasping at straws for Microsoft’s benefit. Microsoft would not do that for you. I think you are a fool.

Indisputable Facts?

In reply to And, here’s something from me to you rickk…

What is so indisputable about your “facts”?

Please list them again so that we all can separate fact from opinion.

Does it really matter?

In reply to Indisputable Facts?

.
Does it really matter if I list, document, and substantiate this any further?

I have already listed and supported my points all over this discussion. Is there really any point in continuing this with you? Even when presented with clear substantiation, you never acknowledge it and then you proceed with more adolescent classless nonsense.

You jumped the gun and accused me of misrepresentation and manipulation. I easily proved your charge was incorrect. An adult would apologize for his error.

You behave like a 12-year old. Go to your room and don’t come out until I call for you.

nicely answered

In reply to Does it really matter?

I’m impressed with the savoir-faire with which you answered rickk here. I doubt I would have had as much restraint.

Thanks! (NT)

In reply to nicely answered

…

Yes It Matters

In reply to Does it really matter?

You said “indisputable facts”.

Indisputable is a very strong word to use when much of your postings are of opinion and not fact as evidenced by so many people disagreeing with you.

Some common definitions of indisputable from a few on-line dictionaries:

“Indisputable” – not disputable or deniable; incontestable, not open to question; obviously true, impossible to doubt or dispute.

Many, many of your indisputable facts you’ve given here have been disputable, have been deniable, have definitely been contested, even open to question, are not obviously true and very easy to doubt and dispute.

Once again I will point out one simple fact. You can surround yourself on TR with a bunch of “buddies” who will all support you and agree with you, but that doesn’t mean you have the facts straight.

BACK TO YOUR ROOM!!! X-(

In reply to Yes It Matters

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I have not called for you yet.

Okay, then . . .

In reply to Yes It Matters

1. Substitute “reasonably indisputable” for “indisputable” wherever you see it. Carry on, now. Obviously, if you want to be unreasonable, you can dispute anything.

2. “[i]Indisputable is a very strong word to use when much of your postings are of opinion and not fact as evidenced by so many people disagreeing with you.[/i]”

Fact: Certain things have been happening with Vista.

Fact: These issues can lead to real-world productivity losses, great inconvenience, and other annoyances.

Opinion: TechExec2 considers these things to be unacceptable.

Anyway, “so many people disagreeing with you” is a bit of an exaggeration. Off the top of my head, I can come up with two or three people who called TechExec2 a whiner or zealot, and one (you) who actually disagreed — but since your disagreement tends to consist of insults, assumptions of bad faith before they’re warranted, and unsubstantiated claims, I’m not sure you count.

apotheon: Nice summary! Well done! (NT)

In reply to Yes It Matters

…

Re: Ok, Then…

In reply to Yes It Matters

That’s your problem right there.

You said, “Off the top of my head, I can come up with two or three people who called TechExec2 a whiner or zealot, and one (you) who actually disagreed.”

That’s the arrogance that I’m talking about. Just because only a handful of people on TR disagree with TechExec2 means nothing.

Think about the tens of millions of people that are content with Windows everyday that disagree with TechExec2 and yourself.

That is exactly what’s wrong with TR nowadays. The minority have a larger voice than the numbers they represent in the real world. And you are in the minority when it comes to OS choice and many other of your opinions.

Their voice on TR is disproportionate to their real numbers. That’s what I’ve been saying all along.

No, that’s YOUR problem.

In reply to Yes It Matters

You read whatever you want to see into what other people have actually said, mentally putting words in their mouths. I’m not sure if it’s because you are consciously creating straw-man arguments to knock down, or you’re just so invested in your tiny little belief system that you’re unwilling to read with an open enough mind to see that you might have overlooked something, but you clearly demonstrate time and time again that you are unable or unwilling to actually respond to the salient points others bring to the discussion.

“[i]You said, ‘Off the top of my head, I can come up with two or three people who called TechExec2 a whiner or zealot, and one (you) who actually disagreed.’

That’s the arrogance that I’m talking about. Just because only a handful of people on TR disagree with TechExec2 means nothing.[/i]”

I [b]never[/b] said that the number of people agreeing or disagreeing in [b]any way[/b] proved anything at all about the truth or accuracy of any statement. In fact, it was [b]you[/b] who implied that connection between popularity and correctness when [b]you[/b] said:

“[i]Indisputable is a very strong word to use when much of your postings are of opinion and not fact as evidenced by so many people disagreeing with you.[/i]”
I just pointed out that you were exaggerating to the point of absurdity on the subject of disagreement. I never validated your implied thesis that the number of people agreeing or disagreeing was germane to the question of whether or not the statement is truthful or accurate. That was what [b]you implied[/b]. It’s not something I said at all.

“[i]That is exactly what’s wrong with TR nowadays. The minority have a larger voice than the numbers they represent in the real world. And you are in the minority when it comes to OS choice and many other of your opinions.[/i]”

1. News flash: TR is for IT professionals. IT professionals are a minority in the world. Get over it.

2. Now you’re claiming that a majority opinion is a correct opinion again. Self-contradiction is so very attractive, y’know.

“[i]Their voice on TR is disproportionate to their real numbers. That’s what I’ve been saying all along.[/i]”
The fact that everybody agrees you’re a childish, malicious little troll does not mean there’s a conspiracy afoot.

I would add

In reply to And, here’s something from me to you rickk…

He is a paranoid and an M$ lemming. Ignore him and he will go away.

Thanks…

In reply to I would add

The more I try to respond and explain to him, the more obnoxious and ridiculous he gets. You’re right. The best move is to avoid and ignore his posts.

Thanks.

P.S. Microsoft is like a parent to him. Structure. Stability. Guidance. Livelihood. It must be terrifying when your parent is self-destructing right in front of you.

The real problem

In reply to I would add

is that we have attacked his God.

BUT….

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

Results 1 – 10 of about 114,000,000 for windows vista solution. (0.11 seconds)

Google these three words: windows vista solution

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=windows+vista+solution&btnG=Search&meta=

So how can there be more solutions than problems???????

It must be because…

In reply to BUT….

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[b][i]”…So how can there be more solutions than problems???????…”[/i][/b]

It must be because…the first fix didn’t work a bunch of the time!

:^0 :^0 :^0

OR

In reply to It must be because…

As well as the problems you found there was also solutions to other non-problomatic issues. New Solutions to business problems perhaps?

Hey – I’m no MS defender but I feel you are treading the path from rational to biggot on the OS front (only).

You dont like Vista – fine, get over it and stop posting ramblings gleamed from other reports – it stinks of – wooooo this will get them, hand waving, tounge hangning out hitting the CTRL&V….

Me – I will use what works in the right situation.

Have a Nice Day 🙂

Not to worry…

In reply to OR

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[b][i]”…You dont like Vista – fine…”[/i][/b]

Correction: I like Vista quite a lot. I beta tested Vista. I was planning to upgrade to it down the road. I don’t like the new aggressive WGA.

—

I was never a Windows zealot when Windows was my primary OS (and it still is for the time being). I won’t ever become a Linux or Mac zealot when those systems become my primary OS. I don’t “look down” on anyone for running Windows.

Chances are good that there will be a physical or virtual machine running some kind of Windows nearby me for a long time (just not on my primary workstations).

Take care…

Heed you own words then TE2

In reply to OR

many have gone down the path and found that their general attitude to other OS users has changed for the worse. TR is a prime example when you see what some people are like. If what you say is true, which I’m sure it is, then remember what you posted here today.

IF MS was to wake up tomorrow and say – we are dropping WGA from the program, what would you do then?

TTM: The answer is…

In reply to OR

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[b][i]”…IF MS was to wake up tomorrow and say – we are dropping WGA from the program, what would you do then?…”[/i][/b]

My current “Leaving Windows” project would be stopped immediately (1).

Factoid: I used Macintosh from 1985 to 1992 and was far more productive than those around me running MS-DOS. I got a lot of flak for that. Then I switched to Windows 3.1. It has never been about religion for me.

————————-

(1) Of course, I could still choose to switch for some other reason down the road.

So my fiend when exactly are you rolling out

In reply to BUT….

Vista Network wide in your Business?

Since you think that it’s so great why not go with the M$ Advertising and deploy now and don’t worry if your [b]Mission Critical Applications[/b] don’t work after all that not Vista’s fault but the suppliers of the Third Party Software isn’t it? 😀

Col ]:)

Just showing that

In reply to So my fiend when exactly are you rolling out

For every negative argument there is a positive or contrary argument. I never once said anything about deployment – you seem to have come up with that one on your own. OK, I have an install at home so as I can get to grips with the OS. I will be supporting it one day as no doubt you (and others) will. I’m not going to be embarrassed by not taking time to learn something that without doubt will be used eventually in a business environment.

If you really need a definative date I would guess around the same time you find the ‘.’ and ‘,’ keys on the keyboard!

Hal 9000

In reply to Just showing that

Yep, what a ridiculous argument he puts forth. Apparently, he’s getting frustrated.

We would no sooner roll out Vista without testing than he would roll out some new version of Linux without testing first as well.

Actually if noting for the worse happens

In reply to Just showing that

I’m looking in the time frame of somewhere around the next 18 months to have Vista on the desktop of most business though it will be the Volume License Version with SA most likely.

This really depends on what the customers want as I’m getting more and more questions about alternative OS right now which is something that didn’t happen with XP and the fact that the Server side of things requires an OS and then the purchase of additional CAL’s/Terminal Services Licenses which more times than not come to more that the Server OS cost doesn’t help matters one little bit. At the beginning of the year I put in a new 2003 SBS R2 Server and had to buy 2 X 5 Packs of CAL’S which cost more than the Server OS did and then to make matters worse M$ tried to sell them a Desktop Volume License for every machine in the place that already had XP Pro loaded. Seems that M$ wasn’t happy with selling the Server Package and then the 10 CAL’s but also wanted to sell them a 15 Site Volume License of XP Pro as well in early January. Incidentally I should add here that Vista on a Volume License wasn’t offered but I’ve had a 5 site Volume License of Vista since November so it was defiantly available but M$ didn’t appear to want to sell it to a business which is one of the things that I do agree with.

Unfortunately they where reading the incoming e-mails over my shoulder and wanted to know what was the advantage of buying a Volume License of XP Pro. I’m not sure how you actually answer a question like that when they already have fully licensed XP Pro machines in use so maybe I should have sold them a Volume License for XP as it certainly would have made my profits higher from that one but I don’t feel right in ripping off my customers. That’s where M$ and I disagree. 😀

Col

Poor little Rick you can stop your crying now.

In reply to Just showing that

Now dry your little eyes and blow your nose and you’ll feel so much better.

The point that I was trying to make is that since this person is continually showing how to fix problems in Vista and is constantly claiming that it doesn’t really have any problems why isn’t he deploying it now?

Since he’s already proved to himself that everything is Honky Dory I would have thought that they had finished their testing and had everything working perfectly. If you insist on continuing to come up with alleged fixes to [b]Undocumented Features of Vista[/b] then I would humbly imagine that they have worked out the problems that most others of lesser knowledge have and be right in there with everything working almost perfectly. Then they go on to admit that it doesn’t actually work quite right yet so have no plans to roll out in the short term so I’m supposing that they are having the same problems as the rest of us are having with something that is as yet not fully supported by the Industry. 😀

Now you can go and cry to your Mommy some more because that [b]Big bad Man told me Off Again.[/b] It doesn’t matter that they where trying to introduce you to the facts of life in the IT world as you didn’t like what they said you have every right to go and cry in the corner till your Mommy comes along to pick up up. :^0

Col

Hal 9000

In reply to Just showing that

That was one of the most immature, thoughtless, meaningless posts I’ve ever read.

But thanks for the insults.

And thanks for sharing your ramblings but really man, I don’t have time for it.

When you have something of value to add to this discussion (other than why 64 bit computing isn’t more widespread), please by all means come back.

Thanks for the questions about my competency but my last two employers of 7 years seem to think I’m quite competent.

rickk: Is it really?

In reply to Just showing that

“[i]That was one of the most immature, thoughtless, meaningless posts I’ve ever read.[/i]”
I guess you haven’t been reading your own material for a while, then.

Pot. Kettle. Absurdly low albedo.

You are absolutely right, GentleRF

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

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Thanks for mentioning it. I noticed this as well. The unflattering but absolutely truthful things I have posted here about Vista and Microsoft have been countered by a pathetically weak response. Nearly all of it has been personal attacks on me.

De Nile ain’t just a river in Egypt.

It comes with the territory. You have to have a thick skin when you post here.

P.S. Now, the amusing question of the day is: Who reported my original post at the top of this discussion as SPAM? I have at least one strong suspect. :^0 😉

RE: The Spam Report…

In reply to You are absolutely right, GentleRF

I know it wasn’t me as I thought it rather odd someone would be so craven as to do that for a legitimate comment in a forum. Most forum hosts would have banned that person from further access to any forum on their site.

Definitely. Was not thinking of you.

In reply to RE: The Spam Report…

…

Not ME!

In reply to Definitely. Was not thinking of you.

I was having WAY to much fun winding up TE2. If the thread was canned my fun would have come to a premature end.

TTM: Did I say I thought it was you? :^0

In reply to Definitely. Was not thinking of you.

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Hmmmm…Maybe you SHOULD be a suspect after all! :^0 :^0 :^0

Uh, what?

In reply to You are absolutely right, GentleRF

Wait — someone reported it as spam? Is there some way I can see how that happened?

That’s just . . . astounding.

Well as you know those who suck greedily on the

In reply to Uh, what?

M$ Teat see anything that criticised their bestest company as a direct attack on them and their way of life so what else can be expected? ;\

But unfortunately for them TR isn’t going to scrap this entire thread because someone who is yet to be weened off that nasty expensive and mind controlling M$ Teat doesn’t like what’s been posted. In all honestly they most likely went running crying their little eyes out to Big Boy Bill and asked him what they could do so Big Boy Bill sent them to Big Bad Steve and this is the result an attempt to stifle free speech that doesn’t sing the praised of M$ products and actually points out exactly what junk they are. 😀

Col

The spam report

In reply to Uh, what?

Go to the first post I made. At the top it says:

“Post 1 of nnn…….Has been reported as spam”

A post that has not yet been reported as spam would have a link that says:

“Post 1 of nnn…….Report as spam”

It’s the high-tech equivalent to letting the air out of the tires of my car in the parking lot of the bar! :^0

Obviously the TR PTB did not agree. This discussion was featured on the TR home page for a few days last week.

Holy cow.

In reply to The spam report

I didn’t even see that.

That’s just . . . insane. Wow.

One is better judged by the quality of one’s enemies than the quantity of one’s friends. You, my friend, have made an enemy so puling and pathetic that you appear a giant of integrity and character by contrast. Congratulations.

Now be perfectly honest as TE2

In reply to The spam report

Isn’t towing the Company Line and actually not saying nice things about the company M$ he should be reported as a Spammer. 😀

After all everyone here is a dedicated M$ Employee aren’t we all? :^0

So [b]REPENT[/b] the errors of you’re ways and I’ll not tell Bill on you like most other kindergarten children would. B-)

After all it’s impolite to [b]Bite The Hand That Feeds You.[/b] :^0

Col

apotheon: Thanks…

In reply to The spam report

.
Look! The emperor has no clothes!

It’s no surprise that this discussion has drawn such a reaction from the emperor’s loyalists.

What’s Your Point?

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

Is Google now some sort of authoritarian source?

BTW, there are 1,160,000 hits for “George Bush is a vampire”.

If you believe Google, it must be so.

If you have to ask…

In reply to What’s Your Point?

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If you have to ask, I won’t be successful in explaining it to you. :^0

P.S. GWB IS a vampire! :^0 :^0 :^0 (joke!)

P.P.S. Here is another one: :^0 :^0 :^0 (have a little fun)

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=rickk+idiot&btnG=Google+Search

ROFL

In reply to If you have to ask…

That is a good link.
A must see for sure.

in small words . . .

In reply to What’s Your Point?

“[i]Is Google now some sort of authoritarian source?[/i]”
I’m pretty sure you meant “authoritative”. The word “authoritarian” would be more appropriately applied to George Bush than Google.

His point is that claims that there’s nothing wrong with Vista seem to fly in the face of millions of Google hits, many of which lead to people complaining about problems they’ve had with Vista. That’s all. I would have thought his point was [b]blindingly obvious[/b], but I guess the “obvious” part goes out the window, rendering you merely “blind”, when you don’t want to see something that disputes your views.

Are you saying

In reply to in small words . . .

He’s blind to the faults in his Windows? 😉

har

In reply to Are you saying

Yeah, I guess I am.

And…

In reply to in small words . . .

Just how many people post that they have had no problems?

not nearly enough

In reply to And…

Considering the point was that people have problems, and there are those who dispute that, even two people having problems would be enough to refute the counterclaim. Since it’s difficult to trust only two complaints, millions of complaints serves as a reasonable statistically significant measure of self-reported problems for actually providing evidence of a problem.

Case closed.

elementary school arithmetic

In reply to And…

This will be presented in the style of a middle-school algebra story problem, so HAL9000 is assigned to assist rickk as needed. I apologize, but you are allowed to write a computer program to solve the problem, and if you deliver that before rickk admits he is stumped, that will be acceptable.

Let the variable ‘x’ be equal to the total number of licenses of Microsoft Windows Vista purchased. (Assume that the WGA program as implemented in Microsoft Windows Vista has [u]completely solved[/u] the problem of piracy, so the total number of users is exactly equal to the number of licenses sold.)

Let the variable ‘y’ be equal to the total number of problems reported by users of Microsoft Windows Vista.

Find the number of Windows Vista Users who have not had a problem. (yet)

(Hint: subtract)

No, but it is authorita[u]tive[/u], in a limited sense.

In reply to What’s Your Point?

Google is widely regarded as having the best algorithm for sorting Internet search strings, making it authoritative.

If it were “authoritarian” they might be able to tell China what to do, instead of the converse. Did you use MS Word? Cancel that, I’m going to check myself, but I bet it can’t identify such a syntax error, as it is grammatically correct but nonsensical.

me and Vista

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I’ve got no motive to move to Vista, because:

1) XP Pro does everything I need and more

2) XP Home does everything I need and more

3) When they are totally unsupported, I will hopefully be migrated to Kubuntu/Musix and not have to worry about Windows anymore.

4) It’s just too damn much money for me to pay for rehashing and re-GUIing of the same technology.

Microsoft has bloated their OSes so much, they are of no use to me anymore, let alone pay $300 for an upgrade to their top-of-the-line Vista (I currently run Windows XP Professional x64 on my 4GB game box)

As I said in another discussion thread, there is one TR member who has been patiently trying to help me troubleshoot issues with my getting Kubuntu to work on my new gaming PC. As soon as that one is working, then the rest of my PCs (admittedly and reluctantly older) should take the installs much easier.

I join TechExec2 in bidding a fond, although too slow for my taste, adieu to Microsoft. I hope to find my future happiness in Linux.

Vive le penguin!

Toyota announces the [i]TOYOTA GENUINE ADVANTAGE[/i] Program – Satire :^0

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

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[b]Toyota determined to solve “most stolen car” problem – Satire[/b]

Torrance, California — March 15, 2007 — Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc. is pleased to announce that we have taken decisive action to permanently solve the auto theft problem for Toyota customers. As is widely reported in the press, the Toyota Camry is the most stolen car in America (1). We are concerned about this disturbing situation for our customers and are determined to do something about it. So, we at Toyota have created the [b]Toyota Genuine Advantage[/b]? (TGA) program. This program will ensure that your Toyota is absolutely genuine and preserve your investment and trust in Toyota.

All new Toyota car and truck models sold in the 2007 and later model years will be equipped with Toyota TGA? at no additional charge. With Toyota TGA?, we have hidden a “bomb” somewhere in each car and truck that will “explode” when your vehicle is stolen. We have gone to great lengths to employ our highly refined Toyota engineering and safety skills to ensure that the “bomb” will only “explode” if your vehicle is stolen.

In addition, in order to help our customers who have already purchased a Toyota car or truck, at no additional charge, we will retrofit Toyota TGA? into your vehicle the next time you bring it into the dealer for service. You don’t have to ask for it, and we won’t even bother you with it at all. It will just happen for you automatically while you enjoy a latte in our waiting room. It’s just our way of saying “Thank you” for buying Toyota.

We are confident that this will permanently remove Toyota from the top of the “Ten Most Stolen Cars” list. Once again, we at Toyota are Moving Forward?.

[b]About Toyota[/b]

Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc. is the marketing, sales, distribution and customer service arm of Toyota, Lexus and Scion in the United States, marketing products and services through a network of 1,427 Toyota, Lexus and Scion dealers in 49 states. Established in 1957, TMS and its subsidiaries also are involved in distribution logistics, motorsports, and research and development.

——————————–

(1) Top 10 Most Stolen Cars
http://www.lojack.com/top-10-most-stolen-car.html

[i]Warning[/i]

In reply to Toyota announces the [i]TOYOTA GENUINE ADVANTAGE[/i] Program – Satire :^0

On rare occasions, inserting the key into the ignition may cause this “bomb” to “detonate.” In these cases, Toyota accepts no liability, since customers will have failed to observe the proper starting sequence for their vehicle as specified in the 1975 Toyota Hi-Lux User’s Manual.

Edit: formatting

hilarious

In reply to Toyota announces the [i]TOYOTA GENUINE ADVANTAGE[/i] Program – Satire :^0

[url=http://reddit.com/info/1aiio/comments]reddited[/url]

Thanks…Glad you enjoyed it! (NT)

In reply to hilarious

…

But that?s just it Microsoft dominates

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

Resistance is futile! Eventually we will all be assimilated by the Microsoft Vista- The best I can do is slow them down by refusing to upgrade for as long as possible. This does nothing to improve my opinion of Microsoft in general.

Some people will not be able to avoid Vista forever, but not me

In reply to But that?s just it Microsoft dominates

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Some people will not be able to avoid Vista forever, but not me. I refuse to upgrade to Vista as my primary OS (maybe on a secondary system, if necessary). And since I cannot stay on Windows XP forever (it will eventually degrade), I am converting my personal workstations to Linux (1). I have been near the breaking point for a few years now. This capricious de-activation nonsense was the last straw.

It really can be done now and I am doing it. Today’s Linux is a really strong alternative OS on x86 PC hardware. I’ve been running it on a secondary machine for a couple of years now. It gets better every year.

The only people who MUST stay with Windows are people who fall into a category like one of these:

– Their boss or users make them. Or, their spouse. 🙂

– They want or need to run certain applications that are only available on Windows. Example: iTunes is only available for Windows and Macintosh.

– They are in the Windows business ecosystem: ISV, IHV, VAR, etc.

If you have any interest in exploring Linux as an alternative to Windows, I suggest you download and burn the PCLinuxOS live/install CD (2). You can boot your PC directly from the CD without affecting your hard drive at all. During boot, PCLinuxOS automatically detects all of your hardware and is fully functional (except for no hard drive, unless you mount it yourself from within Linux). Booting from the “Live” CD gives you a fully functional Linux operating system complete with many applications, including OpenOffice. You can also install from the same CD if you wish.

All the best to you!

——————————–

(1) The LEAVING WINDOWS Project
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=213495&messageID=2185615

(2) PCLinuxOS – “Linux heaven” for Windows users
http://www.pclinuxos.com

Those 3 Categories of Yours

In reply to Some people will not be able to avoid Vista forever, but not me

Represent an awful large percentage of the total.

So what?

In reply to Those 3 Categories of Yours

What are you trying to prove with that statement?

Actually, he missed one

In reply to Those 3 Categories of Yours

4. Many people are not computer savvy, so they will jest get what is sold to them as the popular OS.

English second language, computereese first ?

In reply to Actually, he missed one

as a person that has English ( American variety) as a second language, though i no probably speak it better than my original mother tongue, it is distressing to me to see so many presumably educated people unable to express them self in their native tongue ( the written variety) properly without errors either spelling or grammatically

And, I never stated that I was perfect

In reply to English second language, computereese first ?

and I do not get paid to write, nor do I care if it is perfect.
I do think that I type better than some, but others are better than me. I am not a linguist, nor do I care. I know I run on sentences sometimes, and I do have typos often, but, are they really that bad? C’mon man, dont get bent about a little typo. Would it help if I apologise for jest instead of just?
Guess what, I Wont

And it’s much more acceptable to post the same thing 4

In reply to And, I never stated that I was perfect

Times to make a point right? 😀

Guess what Mate [i]joergsattler[/i] you are making a point but not the one that you think you are making. :^0

Col

English second language, computereese first ?

In reply to Actually, he missed one

as a person that has English ( American variety) as a second language, though i no probably speak it better than my original mother tongue, it is distressing to me to see so many presumably educated people unable to express them self in their native tongue ( the written variety) properly without errors either spelling or grammatically

though i no probably speak it better than my original mother tongue

In reply to English second language, computereese first ?

After 4 attempts to get your point across couldn’t you of at least added the w to no so that it reads the proper word NOW?

Now what where you complaining about people not typing properly and making mistakes?

Guess what my friend you are no better than the rest of us and we are not the ones complaining about this it’s you so shouldn’t you hold yourself to a higher standard that the rest of us [b]Plebes?[/b]

Col

English second language, computereese first ?

In reply to Actually, he missed one

as a person that has English ( American variety) as a second language, though i no probably speak it better than my original mother tongue, it is distressing to me to see so many presumably educated people unable to express them self in their native tongue ( the written variety) properly without errors either spelling or grammatically

English second language, computereese first ?

In reply to Actually, he missed one

as a person that has English ( American variety) as a second language, though i no probably speak it better than my original mother tongue, it is distressing to me to see so many presumably educated people unable to express them self in their native tongue ( the written variety) properly without errors either spelling or grammatically

I think you are wrong

In reply to Those 3 Categories of Yours

But that is just me.

And what I find more and more as I have the “Vista” conversation is that people are ready to move on.

Whether you like it or not, Microsoft made no friends with their architecture decisions this time round. End users are not stupid. They want functionality above all else.

Ready vs Doing

In reply to I think you are wrong

So, you hear about people ready to move on.

Just how many have done it? Start naming names. And don’t even bring up Munich and other high publicity stunts.

Many people say one thing and do another, especially after looking at the migration costs, retraining costs, custom app dependencies, etc.

three “names”

In reply to Ready vs Doing

TiggerTwo
TechExec2 (What is it with the number 2?)
Maybe even Palmetto.

Cute

In reply to three “names”

Names of companies that have switched?

I, too, am switching

In reply to three “names”

Evaluating PCLinux OS, Ubuntu, SUSE, and all three BSDs.

When I want a vista, I’ll go drive the Blue Ridge Parkway.

re: *BSD

In reply to three “names”

NickNielsen — let me know what you think of the various *BSD OSes in relation to each other. I’m a fan of FreeBSD. I like a lot about OpenBSD, though I haven’t given it as thorough a going over as I’d like — and there are apparently some limitations to it that don’t appeal to me as much as FreeBSD. NetBSD, well, I haven’t seen much reason to give it a try at all, yet. More information would be nice.

Sorry No Can Do

In reply to Ready vs Doing

I and most of the others here are [b]Professionals[/b] and it’s not [b]Professional[/b] to use the names of companies without their permission or approval.

This is something that I don’t think you have any knowledge about though.

Col

Nice

In reply to Sorry No Can Do

So, all your clients are so secretive about their switching from Windows to Linux that you can’t name names. Sounds like BS to me.

Alright break the LAW

In reply to Sorry No Can Do

And print in a Public Forum the names of every place that you have worked for that uses Windows Exclusively, without their written authorisation and see exactly what happens to you. 😀

I realise that you have no concept of [b]Legal Matters[/b] or the [b]Legal Consequences[/b] of your actions so you’ll be perfectly happy to list those companies right? You also have absolutely no idea of [b]Compliencing Issues Either[/b] so please print here everyone that you work for and the [b]Companies that they deal with who are exclusively using Windows.[/b] Perhaps you would like to throw in the [b]Names & Addresses of the employees and their payments as well.[/b] :^0

Till you do all you are doing is sprouting off [b]BS.[/b]

Short enough for you this time? :p

Col

How many what have I done where?

In reply to Ready vs Doing

Created ROI/TCO statements for? Several. Name names? Are you willing to provide my legal counsel? Are you willing to provide for me for the rest of my life because I provided secure information in a public forum and therefore demolished my professional reputation?

What are you? Bill Gates’ love child?

Get over it. Vista is NOT the only game in town. With the Linices being considered, we can negate training issues.

Next invalid issue?

Hey Tig ignore this clown

In reply to How many what have I done where?

After all it has a Business Degree and 4 years of experience so it must know so much more than us mere plebes who have a much better education than it and also understand the Legal Consequences of our actions.

But I’m still trying to reconcile a previous statement by this one that the last 2 jobs that it’s had over the past 7 years both employers have had no complaints about the quality of it’s work.

The 2 statements from this clown seem to me at least to contradict each other but maybe thats just me seeing something that isn’t really there right? 😀

Col

Typical Response

In reply to How many what have I done where?

Make a claim and then don’t back it up with facts.

No

In reply to How many what have I done where?

How many clients have you actually switched from Windows to Linux? And be as specific as possible.

I’m not asking for secret information.

And, switched OS’s on more than a handful of equipment. How many have dumped MS 100%?

rickk . . .

In reply to How many what have I done where?

I wouldn’t tell you the names of corporations whose Windows networks I set up, without express permission, either — and I’m not going to go around asking former employers and clients for such permission just to satisfy [b]your[/b] curiosity. Why don’t you tell us the name of your employer and what the current OS deployment situation is for its network?

Clients whose networks have been substantially migrated to non-Windows OSes: 4.

100%? Only one.

Then again, I haven’t been in the network migration business for a couple years. I’m considering getting into that sort of consulting again, since it’s probably going to get lucrative enough in the near future to offset the annoyance factor. I’m inclined to stick to development for now, though, where I have greater control over my own work conditions.

Rickk- MY response was perfectly valid.

In reply to How many what have I done where?

You do not get to demand protected information from a security analyst and not expect the answer I provided. I supplied you with all the open source information I had about projects that enjoy protection under GLBA and a host of other federal regulations. Don’t like it? TOUGH. Write Congress and have those regulations repealed.

Good luck with all that.

Apotheon

In reply to How many what have I done where?

Ok, fair enough, I won’t pussyfoot around like you.

I work for Arbor Homes and we are primarily a Windows shop.

Oh my, I guess I just exposed our secrets…well, not really considering 80-85% of the desktop market belongs to Microsoft and a huge chunk of the server market as well so that wasn’t that hard of a guess now was it?

That was stupid.

In reply to How many what have I done where?

Now imagine what will happen if I contact them and ask questions about you, your work, and their network(s).

By the way, you didn’t answer me completely.

Re That was stupid

In reply to How many what have I done where?

Go ahead, contact all you want.

And I did answer the question. That was all I was asking from anyone else. No specifics, just what clients have you had that have made the switch from MS to Linux.

Now, in my case, how stupid was it? Considering that my 5 year daughter could of guessed we are primarily a Windows shop. Statitics are on her side.

what you left out, and what I’ll do

In reply to How many what have I done where?

1. What you left out:
You demanded only that people only provide 100% conversions (which is ridiculous, but hey, you can ask for anything you like). That’s a 100% understanding of the OS makeup of a network. All I know about yours is that it’s “primarily” or “mostly” MS Windows. Tell me exact numbers of systems using each OS, or at least tell me percentages to two decimal places. While you’re at it, let me know what specific OSes you’re using for specific roles in the company — since you’re talking about companies that are 100% Linux, you’d know what OS is being used for fileservers, desktops, firewalls, et cetera. What type(s) of firewall(s) do you use?

2. Though it would probably be in your employer’s best interest to know how you run off at the mouth, troll discussion fora with childish insults, and publicly post information about the internal network architecture amongst people who obviously have reason to dislike you, I won’t contact your employer. I’ll do you that one favor. Of course, I’m not doing it for you — I’m doing it because I don’t want to have a reputation for that sort of ludicrous behavior. I may not be the only person here who has realized the potential damage to your professional life, however.

Besides, I have no guarantee that the name you’ve given for yourself doesn’t actually belong to someone else whose life you’re trying to ruin.

Re: what you left out, and what I’ll do

In reply to How many what have I done where?

Fine, since you are into being ridiculous, give me numbers and names of companies that have done “meaningful” conversions. Define that as you will (as long as you tell us in advance your definition), but meaningful to me means something along the lines of 50% or more.

And no, you idiot, I don’t need specifics. I have already said that before. I wouldn’t nor do I expect you to give away security related information.

FYI, even if we were 100% MS which we may or may not be, I can guarantee you that means nothing about our internal network infrastructure in regards to routers, managed switches, VLANs, firewalls, etc.

And the same holds true for 100% Linux environments. Just because they use Linux doesn’t mean they won’t buy a Cisco or Juniper or whatever firewall, router, etc.

Think what you will about me. I am highly respected in what I do regardless of your misplaced feelings. Apparently your skin isn’t quite as thick as you get insulted entirely too easily.

Rickk

In reply to How many what have I done where?

Kindly quit giving the peers here an opportunity to sling mud at you.

What you continually do not understand is that to reveal the names of your clients is professional suicide. Why is this a difficult concept?

I enter into a non disclosure agreement with all of my clients. As my work is primarily in the security space, this is not surprising.

Therefore, I can tell you only at a very high level what I see. I cannot, under binding contract, provide additional information… nor would I. It could become problematic down the road.

It appears that you work for a home builder. As mortgage and new starts are hitting the toilet just now, I wish you luck with that. Regardless, the home building market doesn’t deal with the issues of… oh, say… a healthcare operation, a manufacturer, or a retailer.

These professions are managed by a set of governing rules that you are not. Therefore, discussing their identities could get one fired (best case) or simply imprisoned.

You simply refuse to believe that no one here cares an iota about you and therefore will not risk their professional lives.

What a sad and lonely man you must be.

It may interest you to know

In reply to Some people will not be able to avoid Vista forever, but not me

That I know personally of one major corporation who is evaluating a Linux to replace the Windows platform.

They are considering this because early testing strongly indicates that their mission critical apps can be easily ported to a Linux based frame and their enterprise apps have suitable replacements that enable their production.

I will be watching this project closely. Mostly because the security value that they perceive from this move has been estimated in the ROI/TCO analysis. From the standpoint of the work I do, I will be watching for migration elements and also security- both inherent in the system and additional layering. The audit should be fascinating.

The company I am watching is publicly traded. Their transition will, no doubt, have others wondering if they wouldn’t benefit from this move as well.

Thanks for mentioning that…

In reply to It may interest you to know

.
Thanks for mentioning that.

The current state of Linux and open source apps is excellent. The time is right for moves like this by U.S. corporations. I’ve read about a lot of such moves by non-U.S. companies and government offices (e.g. Munich, Germany). It appears that there is widespread refusal to submit to more Microsoft lock-in and high software cost, even by people who are still going to run Windows (e.g. OpenDocument vs. Office Open XML). It makes a lot of sense to strongly consider leaving Windows for Linux even without this Vista WGA nonsense.

TE2, it is all to this point

In reply to Thanks for mentioning that…

We cannot pass audit based on the “fact” that Microsoft is our EVERYTHING.

We are concerned about our mission critical systems. We are equally concerned about how we will connect with our legacy systems. We understand that we use emulators to do critical work.

We KNOW that Unix based systems will give us what we need. We KNOW that Linux based systems will give our end users what they need with little retraining.

WGA plays little part. Until the day that the Windows users (small group) are totally shut down.

The issue today- from here, anyway- is one of operability and long range functionality, combined with cost.

part of the problem

In reply to But that?s just it Microsoft dominates

that allows Microsoft to remain dominant in the computer sector as an OS giant is that:

1) the general public remains complacent to be ignorant of anything they don’t already know about

2) the general public remains unwilling to learn anything they don’t have to even if it is more secure out of the box, runs faster, and costs far less per comparative unit than Microsoft.

3) the private sector tends to follow “trends”, even if they are not the best option (both technically as well as fiscally)

Remember…resistance is not futile.

Even Hugh and the other Borg managed to live away from it without mass detrimental effects.

The public needs to be educated that hope is not lost in the computer world if they move away from MS juggernaut.

Linux is far and away an excellent alternative to Microsoft from a technical aspect, especially if you are running older hardware.

Just try and get Vista Premium to run on a PIII-733 with 256MB of RAM efficiently…then run something like Kubuntu/Ubuntu Desktop, Xandros, openSUSE or Mepis…you’ll see the speed difference.

I will have to continue to use MS at my work as part of my job…I write Windows apps as my main function. However, I am converting my whole set of home PCs to Linux/dual-boot systems.

If I get my way, I’ll try and push for my employer to migrate to Linux on the desktop. You figure, they can’t argue with 600+ computer using employees getting new machines every 4 years maximum…at our purchase rate…ends up being more than $100k.

That is enough usually to get any bean counter to consider the option of Linux.

All hope is not lost…Linux can become accepted.

Use the force, Luke. 🙂

Re:

In reply to part of the problem

A few things…

1) Pretty arrogant of you to think the general public is somehow dumber than you

2) Just how much faster does the general public need their PC’s to run? The general public is buying 2.5-3.2 Ghz processors right now, many dual core just to read their email, surf the web and a few other light duties. Even if Linux were 10-20% faster on comparable systems, would it even matter?

3) OEM Windows cost very little when purchased with a new PC. What, maybe $50-$75? Use it for 3-5 years, that’s not a lot of money for the general public.

4) I just installed Win XP on a PIII 450 Mhz laptop and it runs just fine. It took a lot of tweaking, but I was even surprised myself how fast it is running.

5) Why do all employees need a new PC at your company every 4 years max? MS currently offers 5 years of mainstream support. Are you really updating the OS or the hardware?

A few assumptions . . .

In reply to Re:

1. He doesn’t seem to be saying he thinks the general public is “dumber” than him. He just seems to be saying he thinks the general public is less well informed than him. Didn’t you learn any reading comprehension in grade school? Maybe you haven’t gotten that far yet.

2. The general public is buying computers through vendors like Wal-Mart in many cases — and the largest segment of the “general public” computer consumer community is not buying a new computer at all, of any speed, because they figure their old computers are good enough. Most people aren’t buying 2.5-3.2 GHz processor systems for any reason at all, because they’re not buying new computers. Those who are, in many cases, are doing so for gaming — not for “email, surf[ing] the web and a few other light duties.”

3. Gee, for that much money I could have a much better video card.

4. “A lot of tweaking” isn’t something your “general public” is going to do. Pick a demographic and stick with it. Anyway, I thought we were talking about Vista here.

5. Has it occurred to you that they might be working on tasks that require performance from their systems? Considering your OEM install statement, I’d think you’d recognize that updating hardware means updating the OS anyway, most of the time.

Rickk as you obviously do not understand business

In reply to Re:

It’s called the [b]Tax Cycle[/b] where hardware/Software is devalued to almost nothing over a 3 – 5 year period depending on the Tax Rules/Law wherever you are.

Any Bean Counter will tell the management to replace something because it is no longer profitable to have in the business and is actually costing the business [b]MONEY![/b] M$ accept this practise and is aiming with Vista to be on a 4 year turn around cycle for their new OS’s. As stated elsewhere in this very thread M$ intends to have a major Service Pack available for Vista in a 2 year time frame from the Release of Vista and a New OS available in a 4 year time frame from the original Release of Vista. Depending at the time M$ may chose to call this new OS something different or maybe call it something like [b]Vista R2.[/b] M$ will be working this way for at least the next 10 years so you can expect to see 3 major Service Packs and 2 New Vista Released within that time frame.

You constantly claim to work business but don’t understand the first thing about it so I personally wonder just what you are doing as it doesn’t appear that you know the first thing about [b]Basic Business Practise’s.[/b]

Just remember that if Business walks away from M$ the public will follow as they need to have on their home computers what is on their business computers so that they can continue to earn a living and maintain their job with out which the entire point is moot about anything relating to an OS.

Now to address the so called points that you brought up

[i]1) Pretty arrogant of you to think the general public is somehow dumber than you[/i]

Not really they are not Professionals in this industry and are sold what the retailer wants to push this week because they have a large stock of whatever. Most Home Users don’t actually get what they need but what is sold to them.

[i]2) Just how much faster does the general public need their PC’s to run? The general public is buying 2.5-3.2 Ghz processors right now, many dual core just to read their email, surf the web and a few other light duties. Even if Linux were 10-20% faster on comparable systems, would it even matter?[/i]

Well to you obviously not a drop but as you have said most people are buying Dual Core CPU’s and supporting Hardware why do you think this is so? Because they know better or because that is what the salesperson who is working on a commission makes the most money from selling and then because the lower spec stuff is no longer being sold in enough numbers it gets removed from the shelves and the makers stop making it because no one wants to buy it. If you look at the same hardware running Vista Enterprise and SUSE the SUSE box beats Vista hands down in performance and even M$ accept this. They recently signed an agreement with Novel for Server Sales but Novel isn’t only interested in flogging off SUSE for Servers they want to get it on the corporate Desktop as well where the real money is to be made.

[i]3) OEM Windows cost very little when purchased with a new PC. What, maybe $50-$75? Use it for 3-5 years, that’s not a lot of money for the general public.[/i]

Maybe on a sub 1K desktop or NB with just Windows but then you need to buy more software so you can actually do some work Windows at best is only a platform to allow people to work and not the actual means of performing the work. In a case like this any software will do the job provided that it works and does what is required by the end user most don’t even look at the OS as to them it isn’t important till it breaks.

[i]4) I just installed Win XP on a PIII 450 Mhz laptop and it runs just fine. It took a lot of tweaking, but I was even surprised myself how fast it is running.[/i]

What’s so surprising about this? After all M$ was starting to sell XP when the P2 450’s where new on the desktop so it was commonly available when the P3 450 NB hit the shelves. More importantly why did you need to change the OS supplied with this NB it should have been the latest available at the time that this NB was sold.

[i]5) Why do all employees need a new PC at your company every 4 years max? MS currently offers 5 years of mainstream support. Are you really updating the OS or the hardware?[/i]

This is nothing to do with rubbish hardware but the Accounting Department who have devalued the Hardware/Software Package to nothing so to continue the Tax Benefits for Business they replace Hardware every 3 – 5 years or sooner. Generally speaking you will keep a computer for 4 years in most Business environments and Ink Jet Printers a shorter period of time unless there is some overriding factor involved like a NB Ink Jet printer is no longer being made and the replacement requires mains power and is the size of a desktop computer so it is no longer portable. Dot Matrix printers tend to last about as long and Laser printers tend to run the distance for the complete [b]Tax Cycle[/b] provided they where decent ones in the first place that don’t cost $ per page to print with.

When you are involved in Business you will see that there are other considerations that need to be taken into account than just the Life Cycle of a M$ Offering which really is on no importance to the Business involved. They are only interested in something that they can work with till they are told to replace the things by the Accountants. This can be a 4 year cycle of it may be a 3 month cycle if there is a defective product in use which is costing the business more than it is worth so it gets junked and replaced when it makes Financial sense to the business. Surely you are not insisting that Business be run by M$ for all their Computer needs are you? This would be even more unpalatable to most business people that M$ currently are because of the extra costs involved in following M$ Gestapo Practises as they move hardware around within the business. If you are a Software House the Developers tend to keep getting the Latest & Greatest and their old machines which will be no more than 12 months old are given to a section of the business who has a less demanding role for the Computers that they use. But before this can happen the companies have to remove every bit of software that is going to be unused by the new user or run the risk of being raided by the M$ Gestapo in the guise of the Legal Department for failing to comply with the licensing agreements and it doesn’t matter if a product is actually being used if it’s installed you are a pirate and it doesn’t matter if it’s never been used for the last 3 years because it’s sitting on the HDD taking up space and hogging resources which is costing the company money they are responsible for removing it and if just one computer slips through the net it will cost Hundreds of Thousands of $ and a massive amount of adverse publicity for the company involved. Have you any idea how hard it is to comply with this in a reasonably sized business where computers are being moved around on a routine basis? First you have to install the software that the particular person requires then get their old machine keep it on ice for a few weeks till you are sure that the new one is working properly and there is nothing that needs to be recovered off the old unit then you can remove any unnecessary software and data off the old machine and pass it onto the next department but generally when you come to do this you find the unit missing as someone has just walked in and grabbed the machine and then you need to go looking. With M$ Offering a reward for people to Dob in their Boss for this practise some unscrupulous people have been known to do this to get a % of the total fine that is eventually agreed upon between M$ and the business. I’ve seen at least 2 cases where this was arranged prior to M$ raiding the place to check compliance.

Even just loading a new machine with software that is currently being used is a breach of the User Agreement and M$ isn’t overly concerned what is happening provided that they get their money in the form of massive fines they are happy. So they can quite legitimately hit a company who is commissioning new hardware for a department before it gets put into service because the same Retail License is on 2 computers when that isn’t allowed. The proper way to commission new hardware is to first remove the old strip it out and then start to load the new unit it’s only then that you can be completely sure that you are maintaining compliance with M$ stupid requirements.

The costs involved in lost production are of no concern to M$ as they are not interested in the facts only in stealing more Money.

As some idea of just how bad M$ Legal Department is one Computer Reseller here was selling off second hand Computers which where originally purchased with a Volume License and because that particular company was not supplying Install Disc’s with every Computer that they sold [i]which M$ didn’t even supply[/i] they where by M$’s definition of the EULA Pirating M$ Software. So the proper way to resell used computers that are perfectly good is to scrap the Volume License which can not be transfered from the original hardware and has been paid for at a lot more than $30.00 per machine and supply OEM install Product with every second hand computer which needs to have that particular OEM product Key on or again you are pirating the M$ product.

At the last M$ Partners meeting I was wondering why there where so fer faces that I recognised it’s because most of those who where selling M$ 5 years ago are no longer involved in the industry and have moved on to greener pastures where they stand a chance of actually making money from new & second hand sales.

There is no money to be made in trading in second hand computers and reselling them unless you are a place like Dell, HP or the like who M$ just can not do without so they can continue to get away with murder while the rest of use have very strict Rules to follow and get jumped on if you don’t do as we are told. For example if you buy a cheap HP Desktop you don’t receive any Recovery Disc’s but you can make your own from a hidden partition on the HDD if we did that with just 1 computer that we sold we would be facing a several Hundred Thousand $ Law Suit that M$ would quite happily settle out of court and put in the proviso that they can use the Companies & Principals Name & Address to show that the criminals who have breached the EULA to all their resellers in the monthly supplied [b]Enforcement Announcement.[/b] Which is supposed to show us just how much M$ is doing to help us stay in business but the big boys can do as they please and we just get jumped on as often as M$ please.

Just attempt to deal with M$ as a reseller for a year and you’ll see exactly why there is such a massive dislike for M$ by so many people. They continually take your money offer you nothing then expect you to do as you are told, then they will send out members of their legal team to inspect your place of business every 6 months or so and charge you for the privilege of being audited.

M$ make the Mafia look like the people to do business with as they are far kinder and much more gentle to deal with.

Col
[i]Edited to add the blatantly obvious[/i] In case you are wondering how many times I’ve been fined by M$ for not following their Instructions the answer is [b]Zilch, Nada, Nil, Never.[/b] But now when a M$ Representative rings and begs to get a working unit under the cost of the software even in OEM form which my friend is much more than $50.00 I offer to sell them an OEM copy of Windows whatever and Install Open Office for free onto the computer that they just have to have that can read Excel. When you get a demand for a system that is below the price of the software it’s easy to know where that is coming from.

But what I find totally amusing is the total lack of worry when you are being audited an after they find that you are doing nothing wrong you mention a company who is installing product from an Action Pack onto every computer that they sell the Auditor isn’t interested as it’s not their job to check the reports of Piracy their job is to audit who they are told to and they don’t give a Rat’s how much inconvenience they cause you just have to comply with their unreasonable demands and bring in all your staff from the field and allow them to inspect any NB’s Tablets PDA or whatever the field techs may be caring and the customers who need immediate assistance are not considered as important. The last time that I had the Auditors here I had one customer ring up with an emergency that was costing about a Million $ per hour of Down time and all I could do was tell them to ring M$ and make a complaint there and send in a bill for the lost production because it was M$ Staff which was preventing me getting a tech out there to fix their problem.

Good to see

In reply to Rickk as you obviously do not understand business

It’s good to see some of you have your eyes wide open. M$ has had it’s run, but it wasn’t the way OS were suppose to be..
Tax cycles, revenue streams.. not the langauge of true programmers. Who cares how much money Bill Gates contributes.. Who’s money was it in the first place?

M$ has been found guilty of illegally protecting it’s monopoly.. period, end of story.
It stole from the computer community. Now it want credit for being a responsible corporation. Give me a break.
If I fraudulently took money from you and then decided to give some back, should I be praised? I think not!
Open source software is the only answer for the long term!

Now that is really going to upset

In reply to Good to see

Rickk.

And you know what I don’t give a [b]RATS![/b] 😀 :^0

Col ]:)

Your Book

In reply to Rickk as you obviously do not understand business

I don’t feel like reading your book like post but I will say one thing here.

First off, I do have a business degree which I doubt many on TR who work in IT actually have. I also have 4 years management experience including project management.

Second, just because equipment on the books can no longer be depreciated doesn’t mean it’s costing the company money.

In order to get that depreciation you have to spend money. I disagree with your assertion. I can keep older equipment around and spend my money more wisely somewhere else that will give me a better return on my money.

at least one thing true

In reply to Your Book

“[i]I can keep older equipment around and spend my money more wisely somewhere else that will give me a better return on my money.[/i]”
That’s especially true if you use an OS that doesn’t demand a dual-core 64b processor and 4GB of RAM.

Which OS Is That?

In reply to at least one thing true

Exactly which MS OS requires a dual core 64 bit processor and 4 GB RAM to run well?

Once again, stretching the facts here.

It’s called “hyperbole”.

In reply to at least one thing true

Once again, you prove you failed Reading Comprehension in grade school.

which OS requires that, rickk?

In reply to at least one thing true

Well…

if you want to run Vista optimally with the new features, including AeroGlass…you need a dual-core 64-bit machine with 4GB of memory.

I believe it was here that someone reported loading Vista on a 2GB dual-core machine, and that the Aero process was typing up 1GB of the memory because Vista saw the high-end video config he had and determined he wanted the top-level Aero.

See…even Microsoft is assuming these days…it’s the in thing…

Hell, I’m running XP Pro x64 and I run SLi-ed dual 7900GT video cards and 4GB of RAM to keep XP Pro from sputtering on occassion.

I can’t imagine what my machine would do with Vista Premium and Aero installed…

Well…can’t imagine anything Vista would do…besides crash all my hardware drivers… hahahaha

Re: which OS requires that

In reply to at least one thing true

That is the most blatant, purely FUD, crap still yet. You’re getting worse by the post.

Vista runs quite well including Aero without the need of a dual core 64 bit 4 Gb RAM PC.

Please, change your screen name to Elmer FUD.

If your PC is what you say it is and XP Pro is not running well, you have issues beyond MS and XP. Stop surfing porn, stop opening emails from Nigeria, install some AV and anti-malware, and most of all learn how to use a freaking PC.

No way in this universe you have a PC like that and are struggling to run XP Pro well. Your nose is growing.

Things aren’t true just because you say them.

In reply to at least one thing true

This is a simple he said, she said situation, rickk (I’ll not speculate on who gets to be the “she”). I see jck and you making contrary claims. Judging by past performance, I’m more inclined to believe jck than you, but I’ll keep an open mind. It’s difficult, seeing you return to trolling form, to keep an open mind about it — but I’m pretty good at that, so I will.

Now . . . if someone wants to provide some credible sources for his position, I’ll be glad to reconsider.

Unfortunately Rickk is right on this one (partially at least).

In reply to at least one thing true

I am currently running Vista with Aero and Office 07 on a single core notebook system with 1 GB RAM.
But what he does not realize is that different graphics adapters provide varying results. You can have equivelant video cards (from XP) and 1 works very poorly in Vista, and the other will work just fine. It is definately a driver issue.
As far as the XP system that has poor performance, I would really look into it and see why it is running so poorly. There can be dozens of reasons for this, but startup apps, temp files, virus, malware, many running programs, etc. can all attribute to this.
I dont usually agree with Rickk on most things, but he actually brings up a point once in a while that is truthful, his way of stating them is retarding his own image.

No no no. rickk is not right… rickk is the [i]TR VILLAGE IDIOT[/i]

In reply to at least one thing true

.
apotheon was speaking hyperbole about the dual core and 4GB. I understood that completely.
.
The “minimum hardware requirements” for Vista are more insufficient for Vista than for any other “minimum hardware requirements” in history. You really need a very fast processor, preferably a dual core, a solid top-notch video card with 128MB VRAM, and 2 GB or more of RAM to run Vista well. Fortunately for Vista users, such hardware can be had for very little money these days. Remember the $5000 PC? That is ancient history, thank God.

I’ll tell you what

In reply to at least one thing true

try Vista on an HP NC 6000 notebook system. Upgrade to 1 GB RAM and install Office 07, Symantec AV, and a few other SW. Then run it with Aero. It runs almost as well as XP (although I do not use it enough to test multi-applications usage). I have had email, Word, in use while on the Internet and had no glitches.
But, on an HP NC6220, I could not even get Aero to work –go figure.

It largely depends on the video card and compatibility with Vista. I am sure that when I start really using the system (if I ever do) that it will bog a bit more, but for email, antivirus, and basic Office use, it works fine. The NC 6000 stopped being built almost 2 years ago and has been updates to the NC6400 (newest model).

So it is not a fact that you need a dual core and highest end graphic with 2 GB Ram to use Vista with Aero. However, it is recommended.

re: almost as well as XP

In reply to at least one thing true

1. “Almost as well” is not an improvement. It’s not even acceptable for an “upgrade”, because it’s a step [b]backward[/b].

2. If it only works “almost as well as XP”, that’s pretty pathetic.

I think the problem in disagreement here can be attributed to the following:

1. You’re judging Vista performance against XP performance. While that can provide an indication of just how much you’re going to be hurting if you “upgrade”, it doesn’t provide a more objective view of what kind of performance hit you’re taking. Try comparing it with an OS that has a deserved reputation for performance, like Arch Linux or FreeBSD. MS Windows XP is a dog in comparison, and Vista is only slower unless you throw hundreds of dollars in hardware upgrades at the problem.

2. As TechExec2 pointed out, and as I informed rickk before that, the reference to an Intel Core Duo and 4GB of RAM was a slightly hyperbolic statement. I thought that would be obvious. You seem to be saying it wasn’t obvious, by taking it at face value.

3. “[i]So it is not a fact that you need a dual core and highest end graphic with 2 GB Ram to use Vista with Aero. However, it is recommended.[/i]”
You seem to think that “just barely works” is good enough. It isn’t enough to satisfy me. I’d rather have “works exceedingly well”. Failing that, I might settle for “works well”. That requires the upper end of the “recommended” hardware performance specs with Vista — not the minimum.

Re: Almost as well as XP

In reply to at least one thing true

“1. “Almost as well” is not an improvement. It’s not even acceptable for an “upgrade”, because it’s a step backward.”

I hate to say it but all OS’s get bigger/fatter upon new releases. Including Linux

“2. If it only works “almost as well as XP”, that’s pretty pathetic.”

the ‘almost as well’ was for using it lightly, I did not give it hard testing because I do not like Vista and keep procrastinating in using it. That said, I agree that Vista is pathetic, but not for the works almost as well statement. If a newer version of software has more going on, it will be slower on older HW. being almost as well on 2 yr. old notebook actually shows that it has potential. In earlier versions (including beta 2) it ran like crap on here until I turned off most of the security and Aero. MS made some good improvements in my opion (disclaimer: for what it is).

As for your second #1. I agree. It is very bloated especially compared to non-MS OS’s.

As for # 2, I missed that, sorry.

As for # 3. When did I say it just barely works? If it works almost as good as XP, and XP works fine, I do not see how your interpretation is Barely Works… I also agree about the HW specs though. I always recommend to double the minimum for an average use on MS software.

I was not trying to argue that Rickk has a lot of good points, most of them are stupid. I also skip most of his posts because he is an arrogant A$$ that just likes to argue everything. But in this case, it depends on the system and video card drivers as to how well Vista performs. Vista with Aero CAN work fine for many users on existing HW. But, Linux and XP will work better.

Also, for JCK I misread his XP system, it was to keep it from sputtering, not that it was constantly sputtering. I also would not recommend Vista for him, especially with the SLI and high end video. I do not know if SLI works in Vista yet (last I was told it did not), and Aero would certainly help the ‘stuttering’.

some consideration of talking points

In reply to at least one thing true

[b]First, the good stuff.[/b]

“[i]As for your second #1. I agree. It is very bloated especially compared to non-MS OS’s.[/i]”
I’m glad we agree on that point. I had no doubt you would, though, unless you actually just completely lacked any useful familiarity with non-MS OSes — in which case I’d expect you to simply claim ignorance. You’re not rickk, and I don’t believe you’d act like him.

“[i]As for # 2, I missed that, sorry.[/i]”
No problem. I thought that might have been the case, which is why I pointed it out. Thank you for responding to clarify that fact.

“[i]I always recommend to double the minimum for an average use on MS software.[/i]”
As do I (in general), for established MS software. For something brand new and just out of the gate, I tend to caution against using it without the best money can buy before hitting the bleeding edge price curve, at minimum — and Vista seems to be proving that policy a wise one. I may be a little more exacting in my expectations of software performance, however, since I’m used to using software that on old hardware runs better than MS Windows typically does on high-end current hardware. Many people don’t know what they’re missing, and as such don’t realize how much time they spend waiting on MS software.

“[i]I was not trying to argue that Rickk has a lot of good points, most of them are stupid. I also skip most of his posts because he is an arrogant A$$ that just likes to argue everything.[/i]”
If you had the impression from my post that I thought that was your intention, I must have used harsher phrasing than I realized. I apologize, if that’s the case. I certainly didn’t mean to give you the impression that I thought you were defending rickk in general — and I’ve found myself on a couple of occasions avoiding commenting on a rickk post at all simply because he said something factually accurate, but slanted to imply something untrue, and didn’t want to have to make the choice between being dishonest and providing even tacit support of something I knew would only lead down an ugly road. If I ever ran across something he said that I thought entirely accurate, and someone argued against it, I’d be hard pressed to justify even silence — let alone disagreement. Since that seems to be your intent here, I understand and empathize, but I cannot sympathize entirely because there are still problems with what he said.

“[i]But in this case, it depends on the system and video card drivers as to how well Vista performs. Vista with Aero CAN work fine for many users on existing HW. But, Linux and XP will work better.[/i]”
Put like that, I don’t actually disagree at all. I guess it’s all in the inflection.

[b]Second, the less good stuff.[/b]

“[i]I hate to say it but all OS’s get bigger/fatter upon new releases. Including Linux[/i]”
Show me the visible performance drop from one version of Linux to the next. Go on, show me.

I agree in principle, in terms of what we find under the hood. In the case of Linux, that tends to mean more hardware drivers that “just work” when you install the OS, better kernel module interfaces and APIs, and new subsystems. Many of these things are actually added to improve performance, however — especially with the new capabilities of current hardware. While some of the same happens with MS software, it’s generally the case that new software from Microsoft bloats up with “features”, application integration, additional services that cannot be disabled, and vertical stack integration modifications intended to increase the vendor lock-in effect.

The net result tends to be decreased performance for MS Windows on the same current and recent past hardware, while for Linux and other open source OSes it’s usually increased or unchanged performance on current and recent past hardware. Both often produce decreased performance on entirely obsolete hardware, but there are few people complaining about the performance of KDE on 486 systems with 24MB of RAM — and those who would do so are using FVWM instead of KDE anyway.

More anecdotally, it seems likely to me that you haven’t used Linux (or other open source OSes) much. It’s commonly the case that when software is updated on an open source OS, the installed size shrinks and resource management improves. Software from Microsoft and its cohorts does that maybe one time in a thousand; open source software does it about one time in two or three.

In my experience, as a worst-case analysis, open source software (other than Firefox, perhaps) bloats more slowly than the hardware improves. Meanwhile, proprietary software bloats faster than the hardware improves.

“[i]the ‘almost as well’ was for using it lightly, I did not give it hard testing because I do not like Vista and keep procrastinating in using it[/i]”
I haven’t used Vista more than a few minutes, total — but I’ve been reading hard numbers and professional assessments with independent benchmarking tests (not on old hardware, mind you) that show a notable decrease in performance for MS Windows Vista as compared with MS Windows XP. Even the new DirectX iteration available only on Vista doesn’t make up for this except in pathological edge-cases in most of the tests I’ve seen.

“[i]If a newer version of software has more going on, it will be slower on older HW.[/i]”
That depends on what you mean by “more going on”. If by “more going on” you mean the number of system calls for common tasks skyrockets and the lines of code used to implement it have increased by a whopping 20%, then yeah, that’s true — and that’s exactly the case with Vista as compared with XP. If by “more going on” you mean that it becomes more capable and useful, then no, that’s not a given — and open source software projects all over the place are the proof of that. The entirely open source Ruby programming language is looking at a likely substantial performance improvement for its 2.0 version. Perl’s JIT compiler has a long history of improving performance. GNOME and KDE have both seen substantial performance improvements (though those two have been rollercoasters, and not examples of steady performance improvement). Openbox, as an iterative improvement on Fluxbox, was a substantial improvement in performance and resource footprint, despite increased functionality. Sawfish recently saw improvements in portability, resource footprint, performance, configurability, and stability, all at the same time (when it dropped GNOME library dependencies) — which is about when I decided to start using Sawfish.

“[i]When did I say it just barely works?[/i]”
You didn’t. You did, however, allude to the fact that the recommended specs for your hardware are not the minimum specs. I referred to the implication that MS Vista works with the minimum specs — and, on minimum spec hardware, it “just barely works”. That was all I meant by that.

[b]Finally, something slightly off-topic.[/b]

If you like the Aero Glass interface’s whiz-bang features, but not its bloat and limitations, you may want to give the latest KDE iteration a try. It’s an incremental improvement in terms of glitz and wow factor, and doesn’t require the same level of hardware specifications for the same performance. Even GNOME can be made to look and act in a manner pretty much indistinguishable from Aero Glass, and that’s the desktop environment that [b]isn’t[/b] supposed to be a Windows-alike.

You might also want to give Beryl a try. If you think Aero Glass looks advanced and wow-ish, Beryl will absolutely blow you away.

Great I suppose that those 3 Ph.D’s that I have and years of running

In reply to Your Book

Service Departments for the Mainframe side of IBM Wang Honeywell and the like are as useless as your so called Business Degree with 4 years experience in Management. You are a newbie and will remain such because you are too silly to look at real life so all I can add here is the blatantly obvious.

http://tinyurl.com/6wbv

Thanks for the link Max.

Col

Hey Hal…

In reply to Great I suppose that those 3 Ph.D’s that I have and years of running

Lemme premise this by saying I respect you as a techhead and a jokester and a TR member…as well as your education and experience.

However, Einstein had no PhD when he conceived all his famous works…and…it didn’t make him any less the genius.

Not saying yours mean nothing…just that all the experience and education in the world doesn’t make the man.

By the way I totally agree with you…rickk does seem quite naive…and…I would lay odds…he’s a “yes man”…nods to his boss and does what he’s told and takes his boss’ word as gospel and follows the line.

I was that way once when I was a section head…

Then I found out that the procurements manager was hiding $1.1M of funds that were earmarked for purchasing “furniture and equipment”. He probabaly was gonna refurnish his corner of the complex at the end of fiscal year.

Needless to say…my naiveity went away…and…I quickly had the Exec. Dir. sign my requisition for a new mainframe and network infrastructure.

Taught him to hide money from me, that old coot!! 😀

I actually agree with you JCK

In reply to Great I suppose that those 3 Ph.D’s that I have and years of running

Rickk reminds me of Spuddy M to quite a large extent. Actually I wouldn’t have even bothered with the PhD rubbish if this Troll had not of insisted that his Business Degree and 4 years of experience made the rest of us the fools that we are. 😀

And your Right about Uncle Albert who when he was younger was tested by the [b]Latest Up to Date Scientific Methods to see what he would be Suited for at Work and his Parents where told to buy him a Shovel so he could clean the streets from all the Horse Droppings.[/b] Yes he was actually that old or young at a time when horses where the norm and not the exception.

However all that being said while I have a great deal of Respect for Uncle Albert even he never claimed to be a Physicist as really he was nothing more than a Mathematician who proved something mathematically and then left it out there for others to attempt to either prove or disprove. As he had proved it with Maths as far as he was concerned it was right. Which to date he has been proven correct. But I’ll also throw in a Quote from uncle Albert here {b]”No Student should be allowed to escape College without knowing just how little that they actually know.”[/b] But because everyone called him a Physicist it was never possible for him to be nominated for the [b]Fields Medal[/b] which he should have won 5 or 6 times as well as the Nobel Prize.

Apparently Rickk doesn’t subscribe to this belief of Uncle Albert and insists that the piece of paper that he got is [b]All Important[/b] while there are people like me who don’t see them as the slightest bit important and quite often adversely affect you in ways that you could never believe when you originally got them. Incidentally I didn’t even bother going and picking up the bits of paper I allowed them to be posted out and I don’t actually know where they are currently I suppose that [b]SWMBO[/b] would be able to find them if necessary but I’m not overly worried either way. I’ve always had the idea that those who whould be impressed by them are not the ones worth impressing anyway so I don’t use anything relating to them unless I’m filling in some Legal Report as an [b]Expert Witness.[/b] I even find that definition that is always used as stupid but as I say those who are impressed by the letters are not worth impressing anyway. :^0

This guy Rickk reminds me of a Civil Engineer that I once meet there was a storm water drain that was undersized for the required amount of water that it was supposed to move in a severe storm so it was constantly lifting off man hole covers and sending jets of water into the air. The solution was to add several overflow pipes to the system to prevent the buildup of pressure and allow all the water to get away. A fairly simple job which the Council fitters did all the time and could do in their sleep till a Civil Engineer got involved. 😀

Instead of allowing them to cut into the drainage pipe and lay the overflow pipe from there out to the stream that it was running into he insisted that they cut the hole in the main Pipe and then insert the fitting and instead of running the pipes from the main waste water pipe that they start at the bank of the stream and lay the pipe back to the overflow to prevent any pipe sticking out past the bank. This involved 6 Foot diameter Concrete pipe that had a self sealing end that required the pipe to be pushed in and then turned 90 degrees to lock in place. Really something very simple but this fool had to make it impossible by insisting that they first lay the pipe from the bank of the stream level with the bank all the way back to the overflow point 900 meters away. I couldn’t believe that anyone would be that stupid but I just had to look and as the council fitters laid the pipe in the way that they where told to they eventually got to the end where they then had to move the entire length down about 3 feet then pull it back up and rotate it through 90 degrees to get a seal. Naturally they couldn’t do what was Demanded of them so instead of ripping it all up this fool had to waste 5 days with lots of heavy lifting equipment trying to get the finial pipe in place and then sealed. Naturally it never happened and my only comment was along the lines that He would never make an Engineer as long as His A$$ pointer toward the ground. :0

Col

Not arrogant, just really knowledgeable

In reply to Re:

In my experience, business refreshes the mission critical supportive technology every two years, the balance, every three.

4 years is a very old computer in the corp environment, considering that application architecture isn’t what it used to be. But further, there may be environmental degradations that pertain- on airport computers are generally replaced more frequently than office computers due to environmental issues.

In my house, my personal system is the best and fastest money can buy. My test machines are not. On the average, the end user wants to have a stable online experience without having to re-educate themselves. As professionals, we therefore build in the best protections that we can.

The general public are people who are being quickly educated. They want value for their dollar. If OEM Vista “breaks” all their other peripherals, they will want something else. Linux provides that.

Edited because I walked 12 miles this week and I am tired!

Product Lifecycles

In reply to Not arrogant, just really knowledgeable

You apparently work for wealthier companies than I do.

Sure, most companies will replace mission critical technology faster than non-mission critical.

However, servers are one thing and PC’s another. In addition, I know many, many companies that don’t replace server hardware because they are scared to death to touch it.

On top of that, most companies I work with do keep PC’s around for 4-5 years and even longer. I’d say the most “seen” PC’s I come in contact with are Win 2000 on 1-2 Ghz processors and aren’t scheduled for replacement anytime soon.

Lastly, as far as OS’s, most companies don’t upgrade immediately. They will stick with Win XP/Server 2003/2000 until the first service pack for Vista/Longhorn and then start converting. Too many issues to be worked out on top of legacy enterprise app compatiblity issues.

Consumers, they are a different case. They buy new whenever they get sick of the old, get a tax refund, or give their PC to a kid or friend.

Periphals are a non-issue with consumers. Most buy the bundled package PC meaning PC, monitor, printer and all will work with Vista as tested by the manufacturer prior to resale.

Only potential problems are older cameras, scanners, etc.

I have seen much

In reply to Product Lifecycles

And cannot say more than that as I manage privacy standards.

Larger corps want you to value hardware at a min= 5yr standard. In MS land, we have had to interject “islands” of min= 3yr.

You are very wrong on the consumer issue. I have no clue what your data set includes but I have gone bleary trying to fix “consumer” problems with their peripherals.

You, sir, need a grip, follow it with a clue. Please.

Let’s make sure you understand me, rickk

In reply to Re:

[i]A few things…[/i]

ok…

[i]1) Pretty arrogant of you to think the general public is somehow dumber than you[/i]

I said [b]ignorant[/b], not dumb or stupid. I never said dumb. I never said anything in comparison to me being smarter.

Get it right…learn the difference.

[i]2) Just how much faster does the general public need their PC’s to run? The general public is buying 2.5-3.2 Ghz processors right now, many dual core just to read their email, surf the web and a few other light duties. Even if Linux were 10-20% faster on comparable systems, would it even matter?[/i]

I was arguing that Linux is better for [b]users who can’t afford to go buy or don’t yet have a new PC[/b]. That’s why I said…go find someone with a PIII 733…and see which OS operates better on it.

But to answer your question about how fast they need to be?

I guess the fast, modern PCs have to be fast enough for anyone who wants to run Vista with AeroGlass running in full graphics mode, eh? Can you say…Crossfire? SLi? Neither of those options is cheap.

[i]3) OEM Windows cost very little when purchased with a new PC. What, maybe $50-$75? Use it for 3-5 years, that’s not a lot of money for the general public.[/i]

Actually, Windows XP Pro x64 OEM cost me about $100.

However, you have to understand one thing: The general public needs [b]end-user support[/b] and OEM versions come with [b]NO SUPPORT[/b] from Microsoft and very little from the VAR other than installation and RMAs for defective disks.

Most end-users in the general public are not capable of troubleshooting their own problems like we technical people can most of the time for OS issues.

So, your OEM idea won’t work for most of the general public who need that OS to be as “user/stupid friendly” as possible.

[i]4) I just installed Win XP on a PIII 450 Mhz laptop and it runs just fine. It took a lot of tweaking, but I was even surprised myself how fast it is running.[/i]

Again…most end-users in the general public don’t know how to “tweak”. They buy a PC, and are ignorant of the Linux option which really doesn’t require a whole lot of “tweaking”.

[i]5) Why do all employees need a new PC at your company every 4 years max? MS currently offers 5 years of mainstream support. Are you really updating the OS or the hardware? [/i]

I don’t know. I don’t determine hardware/software updating at the enterprise level. I write applications and make technology suggestions and administrate database and webservers.

But…if I had to make a guess…since they are buying new PCs, I would tend to think that means that they are upgrading hardware…not software.

Since our organization buys from Dell (no matter how much I wish they didn’t…and would just hire techs to build them at $10-12 per hour and bulk order parts), we get whatever apps/OS come on the machine by default.

However, we are back-reversioning the systems now because they are shipping with Vista Premium under the licensing agreement with have with Microsoft. We are, upon arrival, wiping the disk and installing XP Professional and will continue to do so for some time to come (18-36 months).

Like I said before, I will try and move my organization to realise that for the greatest majority of users it does not matter if we run Linux or Windows. Most probably couldn’t tell the difference between KDE-Redmond I mean Vista… and KDE 3.5 if you just changed the names on items in the menus and made a default load image to install on each new computer.

Most people here who use systems only use the Office suite to do their work, and interfaces for their proprietary software could be easily converted to Linux within a few months.

Anyways…Linux is more efficient…it’s cheaper…you have more than one option of which Linux to run…and…Linux didn’t remove OpenGL2 from their base OS structure.

Have a nice day 😀

Re:

In reply to Let’s make sure you understand me, rickk

3) OEM versions currently work for most of the people that buy them.

4) Linux doesn’t require tweaking? That’s the biggest load of crap I’ve ever seen on here.

If one doesn’t know the CLI, forget it, Linux is the wrong choice. Try putting the newest version of Ubuntu on my PIII 450 Mhz laptop and not tweak Linux. BS.

5) If you are waiting 18-36 months before using a MS product, I’d bet you are also the type that complains when mainstream support ends too. After all, you are waiting for up to 3 years before you even use the product when support ends in 5 years. Nice.

Your points are all mute in my book.

get a clue, rickk

In reply to Re:

“[i]OEM versions currently work for most of the people that buy them.[/i]”
. . . for a while.

“[i]Linux doesn’t require tweaking? That’s the biggest load of crap I’ve ever seen on here.[/i]”
He didn’t even say that. He said it doesn’t require “a whole lot” of tweaking. He was basically quoting you when he said that, as it was in response to your reference to how XP performs adequately on a 450MHz P2 laptop with “a lot of tweaking”.

I installed Linux on a 450MHz P2 in 2005, and it required zero tweaking to run like a bat out of hell. It also required only about 200MB of hard drive space (not counting user files), as contrasted with the absurd bloat of an XP install before you even include an office suite — but that’s not really relevant to this point. The relevant bit is that the 450MHz P2 Linux system outperformed an Athlon XP 1600+ running MS Windows 2000 Professional that had seen “a whole lot of tweaking” for performance, including actually turning off the desktop process (which you can’t even do in XP now). Get that? Better performance, a quarter the processor, zero performance tweaking.

Actually, it required zero tweaking period. The only “tweaking” I did on the Linux box was to customize the user environment to make it more of a productivity enhancer — tweaks, by the way, that aren’t even available on a Microsoft Windows system. Try replacing Windows Explorer with WindowMaker or IceWM some time if you don’t believe me.

“[i]If one doesn’t know the CLI, forget it, Linux is the wrong choice.[/i]”
That’s complete BS. Someone from the local Linux User Group set up an Ubuntu system at a coffee shop downtown — stuck the CD in it, clicked “okay” a few times, and took the CD back. He made a couple minor changes to it for security purposes because it was going to be a publicly accessible system. The people who run the coffee shop don’t even know what Ubuntu is, but they don’t need him coming back to “tweak” anything. That sounds like a “no tweaking needed” success story to me.

“[i]If you are waiting 18-36 months before using a MS product, I’d bet you are also the type that complains when mainstream support ends too.[/i]”
If he adopted immediately, I’m sure you’d give him grief for his complaints about things like how SP2 hosed his system.

“[i]After all, you are waiting for up to 3 years before you even use the product when support ends in 5 years.[/i]”
It’s better to not need support because you waited until you were reasonably sure the new software wouldn’t detonate in your face than to have support because it did blow up.

“[i]Your points are all mute in my book.[/i]”
Do you even think about the meanings of words before you use them? I have a very difficult time showing anything but contempt for people who use words without considering their meaning, using the wrong words because some other idiot used the wrong words before them, utterly failing to notice that what they’ve said sounds completely ridiculous when the definitions of the words in use are considered. Typos, and even actual misspellings, I can overlook much more easily than crap like “mute point”.

Did you learn English from TV?

oh dear…rickk rickk rickk

In reply to Re:

OK…I tried to be nice:

[i]3) OEM versions currently work for most of the people that buy them.[/i]

Yeah…but…that wasn’t the point. The points were:

a) normal, general public users do [b]NOT[/b] know how to tweak an Windows install

b) it’s not the fact that OEM versions do not, as a rule of thumb, work for most users…but the fact (as I stated) that Microsoft provides [b]NO OEM VERSION SUPPORT TO END USERS[/b]. That is the responsibility of the Microsoft VAR. If it breaks, the average end-user is screwed with getting help.

Hence, buying an OEM version of an MS OS is like living in upper Mongolia and owning a Porsche 911 Turbo. It might work for quite a while, but when it breaks down you’re screwed with trying to get it to work again.

[i]4) Linux doesn’t require tweaking? That’s the biggest load of crap I’ve ever seen on here.

If one doesn’t know the CLI, forget it, Linux is the wrong choice. Try putting the newest version of Ubuntu on my PIII 450 Mhz laptop and not tweak Linux. BS.[/i]

I never said Linux doesn’t require tweaking. You could consider having to choose the RPMs that are implemented as “tweaking”. But what I had said exactly to you was that Linux was an OS:

[b][i]which really doesn’t require a whole lot of “tweaking”.[/i][/b]

Those are EXACTLY my words…once again, you’re so absent that you can’t quote me correctly.

Linux has a default install that, like MS’s default install does not “require” tweaking, unless you want to increase system performance. Hell, our 2000 boxes that are domain deployed by default had been (somehow…started before I got here) set to have their master browser turned on. I’ve never seen a Linux box sit there and probe a network up and slow its user down with that kind of overhead. You have to configure that in Linux.

Oh…and…btw…just FYI…I have Musix GNU 0.99 running on a AMD-K6-3-600 with 512MB of RAM and a 80GB hard drive and a CD-RW. Loads like a champ. Windows 98 couldn’t even compare and its overhead was far less than XP, and Musix Linux 0.99 is a multimedia-focused Linux.

And, that was a default Musix Linux install…nothing modified…nothing “tweaked”.

[b]HOWEVER[/b]: Because of the inherent programming overhead with MS operating systems since Windows NT 4.0(and 2000 and XP are based on the NT kernel model), MS operating systems are [b]known[/b] to have extremely high memory and CPU overhead in their core operation.

And with the advent of the .NET framework, the number of interface calls implemented by MS into the system is 3-4x that or the old model. Ask any MCAD or MCSD that knows their Microsoft programming model.

Therefore to get Windows XP to perform as well as Linux from a default configuration, you are more likely to have to do things to Windows than to Linux.

[i]5) If you are waiting 18-36 months before using a MS product, I’d bet you are also the type that complains when mainstream support ends too. After all, you are waiting for up to 3 years before you even use the product when support ends in 5 years. Nice.[/i]

1) I specified that it was VISTA I was speaking of…not using any “MS product”. I was quite specific. We have upgraded to new versions of office and started implementing XP far more rapidly because there were few or no possible consequences.

However since you seem unenlightened to the facts of Vista migration, I’ll inform you that the Vista driver model has been drastically altered from the XP model. This has been causing horrible consequences in the OEM hardware market where manufacturers have been going crazy to get “Vista Compatible” drivers ready for their products. Hence, why we *will wait* (and, it wasn’t my choice. that is someone else’s…I told you that before) to implement an OS that:

1) requires significant investigation to determine software incompatibility for any program we would migrate to it

2) requires significant investigation to determine hardware incompatibility for device we would migrate to it

You really seem to have no clue, rickk. I suggest you get a few more years in PCs under your belt.

BTW…just so you know:

I started using PCs over 25 years ago when 20k was state-of-the-art for memory. I’ve been a professional programmer for over 15 years, as well as doing database design, web design, PC maintenance and repair, etc etc etc.

As well, I managed a multi-million dollar computer section and have had to manage assets, personnel and budgets.

So, I’m not talking out of my ass.

All my points are valid, if you just learn to actually quote me for my content and not just what you think I said.

Gee, thanks.

In reply to oh dear…rickk rickk rickk

You’ve made me feel very old.

“[i]I started using PCs over 25 years ago when 20k was state-of-the-art for memory.[/i]”
I wrote my first line of BASIC almost exactly 25 years ago. Nice reminder of how many years I’ve been around.

“[i]All my points are valid, if you just learn to actually quote me for my content and not just what you think I said.[/i]”
I think you mean that he should learn to actually quote you for your content, and not what he [b]wishes[/b] you said.

OK…Let’s all repeat the baby boomer mantra…

In reply to oh dear…rickk rickk rickk

.
50 is the new 30…
50 is the new 30…
50 is the new 30…

:^0 :^0 :^0

No

In reply to oh dear…rickk rickk rickk

Buying OEM versions of Windows is no different than buying (oh sorry, Linux is free as in beer) Linux.

There is a huge worldwide support network of people just like the open source community willing to help.

Everything that Linux has “community” wise, Windows does too. We just can’t modify the kernel, code, etc. Big deal

So, if buying OEM Windows is like a Porsche in Mongolia, then using Linux must be too without buying a support contract.

Turning on a master browser slows down a PC and network? Theoretically, yes, but do you have any idea how many packets are being sent over that hopefully Cat5 cable? Oh my God! Please don’t show your complete lack of knowledge like that.

Just curious, what new versions of Office are you upgrading to and why? Seems like OpenOffice.org would be a better fit for you.

Manufacturers have had plenty of time to get their drivers ready. Can’t blame MS for that.

Glad to hear about all your experience. I’ve known some guys with years and years of experience who were absolutely invaluable to have around and others that were better fly swatters.

I won’t pre-judge you.

You can’t blame MS?

In reply to oh dear…rickk rickk rickk

“Manufacturers have had plenty of time to get their drivers ready. Can’t blame MS for that.”

Vista has been a moving target and hasn’t really settled down until about 6 months ago. Let’s not forget that MS changed a TON of APIs and broke a lot of functionality.

Look at how many work arounds there are for game installs. Look how many “fixes” have been released for various apps/games/whatever because the new Vista model borks things up.

Drivers are a whole different story…with MS’s idea of “protected” kernel space, drivers have to be rewritten from the ground up to fit with the new wonky model that MS poorly thought out.

Vista is the ME of a new generation.

just can’t construct a rational argument . . .

In reply to oh dear…rickk rickk rickk

“[i]There is a huge worldwide support network of people just like the open source community willing to help.[/i]”
The average level of skill of people on MS Windows community mailing lists is lower than that on LUG mailing lists.

The average number of members is, in my experience, lower.

Best of all, however, is that MS Windows communities are few and far between. I live in a town seven miles across at its widest point, with its own LUG. When I lived in Tampa, there were three LUGs in the area, one of which had no fewer than four different sub-groups (yes, it was big enough to require some balkanization to keep things sane). Orlando has four that I’m aware of, and I’ve never even lived there — I’m sure there are others I haven’t run across.

MS Windows communities tend to have to fill several roles. They’re the desktop, server, networking, and MS programming groups, all rolled into one. Meanwhile, you’ll often see PerlMongers, Python groups, and Ruby groups all sharing space with LUGs. Even better, most of those supposed Windows communities are actually general-purpose computing groups with Mac- and Linux-centric SIGs.

(If you have to look up SIG, I’ll take that as an indication you’ve never actually participated enough in MS Windows user communities enough to know the first thing about the subject, anyway. Clearly, you don’t know [b]much[/b] about it, since you think they’re any damned good.)

“[i]Everything that Linux has ‘community’ wise, Windows does too.[/i]”
That’s either a bald-faced lie or a frightening indication of your complete ignorance, and willingness to display it.

“[i]So, if buying OEM Windows is like a Porsche in Mongolia, then using Linux must be too without buying a support contract.[/i]”
I have an answer for that. It might surprise you:

[url=http://linuxlookup.com/node/957]Mongolian Linux User Group[/url]

“[i]Turning on a master browser slows down a PC and network? Theoretically, yes, but do you have any idea how many packets are being sent over that hopefully Cat5 cable? Oh my God! Please don’t show your complete lack of knowledge like that.[/i]”
Please say something that makes sense. Please?

Was that actually supposed to be a refutation?

“[i]Manufacturers have had plenty of time to get their drivers ready. Can’t blame MS for that.[/i]”
Tell that to the manufacturers whose drivers worked with the final release candidate of Vista, but doesn’t work with the release version.

“[i]Glad to hear about all your experience. I’ve known some guys with years and years of experience who were absolutely invaluable to have around and others that were better fly swatters.[/i]”
Maybe you should stop talking about [b]your[/b] experience, then.

au contrare mon freir rickk…(did I get the french right?)

In reply to oh dear…rickk rickk rickk

[i]No [/i]

er…yes! (I had to contradict you)

[i]Buying OEM versions of Windows is no different than buying (oh sorry, Linux is free as in beer) Linux. [/i]

There’s one HUGE difference in buying Linux vs. buying OEM Microsoft.

If you pay for Linux…that is, you buy Redhat Enterprise AS or ES…you get support from Redhat.

If you buy Microsoft OEM, you get no support from Microsoft.

Bad argument, rickk. Score:jck 1 rickk 0

[i]There is a huge worldwide support network of people just like the open source community willing to help. [/i]

Indeed. Of course again speaking to the use by the general public/end-users, you must pay for the Windows product. You don’t have to pay for Linux product.

Score: jck 2 rickk 0

[i]Everything that Linux has “community” wise, Windows does too. We just can’t modify the kernel, code, etc. Big deal[/i]

Actually I can name one thing the Linux community has that the Windows community doesn’t have: free versions of their OS for download with no strings attached.

Score: jck 3 rickk 0

[i]So, if buying OEM Windows is like a Porsche in Mongolia, then using Linux must be too without buying a support contract.[/i]

Actually…if buying OEM Windows is like buying a Porsche to use in upper mongolia…getting Linux is like having your neighbor give you his old mule and cart that works great and has for years, is simple, effective, not flashy, and doesn’t require a whole lot of updates to keep it working the right way 🙂

Score: jck 4 rickk 0

[i]Turning on a master browser slows down a PC and network? Theoretically, yes, but do you have any idea how many packets are being sent over that hopefully Cat5 cable? Oh my God! Please don’t show your complete lack of knowledge like that.[/i]

Trust me, junior. I know more about Ethernet and Category-5 networks than you’ll learn in the next decade.

[i]Just curious, what new versions of Office are you upgrading to and why? Seems like OpenOffice.org would be a better fit for you.[/i]

We upgraded about 2 years ago from Office 2000 to Office XP.

OpenOffice could be used, but (as I have told you before) I don’t make the technology decisions for my organisation. We have a technology director who dictates what we use. And, he’s pretty pious and a lot like you in the way that he preaches the Microsoft mantra and defends them no matter what…simply because…well…that’s all that he knows and doesn’t want to look ignorant or admit his ignorance on other issues…such as Linux

[i]Manufacturers have had plenty of time to get their drivers ready. Can’t blame MS for that.[/i]

Actually, I’m going to go find you the article that documented that Microsoft had not released final Vista-compatible specs for OEMs until Q4 2006. I’d say that 3 months is not a whole lot of time to:

a) determine current hardware capability to comply
b) create new drivers for hardware that is
c) re-design hardware in-the-works to be compatible
d) re-design drivers for hardware that is in-the-works to be compatible

Have you ever been a part of a re-tooling team? A “tiger team”?

Doesn’t sound like it.

[i]Glad to hear about all your experience. I’ve known some guys with years and years of experience who were absolutely invaluable to have around and others that were better fly swatters.[/i]

Sounds like, if you don’t stop thinking you’re the all-knowledgable, you will end up in the latter group.

The smartest thing you could do is listen to some of these guys on here.

For all the arguments I’ve had with apotheon, jdclyde, etc…there are a [b]LOT[/b] of super smart people on this site you could learn a hell of a lot from in the tech world if you’d stop flapping your gums and listen.

So…I will give you the same advice my father gave me when I was about 7 years old:

[b][i]If you keep quiet and listen to everything that everyone else knows and learn it…you will eventually know more than them.[/i][/b]

That’s the best advice I can give you.

And by the way. I didn’t pre-judge you. I judged you on the merits of your argument (which were none). I judged you on your seeming lack of knowledge dealing with hardware and software deployments and re-deployments. I judged you on your lack of ability to realise the fact that MS’s OSes have become awkward behemoths and can’t compete with a more efficient, less glitzy, more powerful OS like Linux in terms of speed and usability on hardware both new and older.

Simply put, I hope you’ll learn. Really…take a piece of advice from me…listen…learn…grow…and get rid of that chip you have on your shoulder.

hey jck

In reply to part of the problem

I have some cost factoring analysis (open source, I wrote it- I define the copy left) of migrating a business from Windows to Linux. In this analysis, I did not cover every Linux but instead covered three that I could see as possibles- Enterprise RH, PC Linux OS, and Ubuntu (with some changes). I am working through adding Debian and SuSe to the list.

I haven’t actually weighed the doc- I did some security analysis along with the ROI/TCO comparative analysis- but it is a monster that may help.

With very high level understanding of your business, I may even have some appropriate security compliance regs that are satisfied without additional tooling on the base install.

I would love to see more corps choosing Linux. It makes good sense.

Thanks TT

In reply to hey jck

Well, it’s gonna be a year at least…but, I’m planting seeds right now.

One of the techs has Mepis loaded on an old Dell OptiPlex PC and is running it with 512MB of RAM and a 40GB disk…and it runs as fast as XP on a 1GB Dell GX6-series box.

I’d love to see more places switch to Linux as well. I can’t see that we’d be able to migrate servers as quickly…but…if the “powers that be” here put their mind to it…we could migrate most of the 600+ PCs to Linux (end users who only use Office apps) within 2-3 months…and probably the majority of those left (some exceptions) by the end of 6 months.

Servers would probably take…oh…1-2 years…because of having to reimplement web technology, database migration and testing, etc…plus…all your people would be working on moving the client PCs too.

But yeah, it’s silly to pay MS for Vista in the enterprise when all they want to do is documents, spreadsheets, photo-editing, presentations and email.

Linux = free (without support)
Linux = keeping hardware longer
Linux = choice (dozens of vers. of Linux vs 1 Microsoft)

cheaper…less updating hardware…choice of vendors.

in the immortal words of Mel Gibson in Braveheart…

FREEDOM!!!!!!! 😀

Corrections

In reply to Thanks TT

Linux = free (without support)
Linux = keeping hardware longer
Linux = choice (dozens of vers. of Linux vs 1 Microsoft)

1) No company in their right mind would run a non-enterprise version of Linux (which does cost money) for several reasons, two of which would be support and legal protection.

2) Depending on how long you keep hardware, there comes a time when it becomes more expensive to maintain it than replacing it.

3) Read HAL 9000’s post. He is apparently at odds with you regarding the number of versions of MS Vista. He’s pretty pissed off there are over 14 different flavors yet you see 1. Nice. Just like the Linux community, can’t ever agree on anything.

Like someone else said on here. Thank God for MS or else the Linux community would have already chewed each others legs off.

har de har har

In reply to Corrections

Oh, that’s not a joke?

“[i]1) No company in their right mind would run a non-enterprise version of Linux (which does cost money) for several reasons, two of which would be support and legal protection.[/i]”

A. There’s internal support — which, for a company that has it, is better than vendor support. There’s consultant support — which, for a company that can’t afford comprehensive internal support, is better than vendor support.

B. So-called “legal protection” is a myth. I didn’t think even you could be so ignorant as to actually believe there’s any legal protection to be had by using MS Windows instead of Linux or *BSD.

“[i]2) Depending on how long you keep hardware, there comes a time when it becomes more expensive to maintain it than replacing it.[/i]”
So what? You seem to think this justifies having to replace the hardware when it’s still useful just because new MS software won’t run on it. It doesn’t. I have no desire to throw away a box that can still serve as a backup server (without costing nearly as much as a new replacement) for another five years just because it won’t run Vista (or XP or Win2k, for that matter).

“[i]3) Read HAL 9000’s post. He is apparently at odds with you regarding the number of versions of MS Vista. He’s pretty pissed off there are over 14 different flavors yet you see 1. Nice. Just like the Linux community, can’t ever agree on anything.[/i]”
Actually, you’re missing an important distinction here:

HAL is referring to the dozen or so separate sales packages for the One Ring — err, I mean the One Vista, where if you make the wrong choice from an ill-designed lineup of choices you either lack functionality you need or pay far more than you needed to.

Meanwhile, jck is referring to the fact that no matter which of those Vista versions you purchase, you’re stuck with the same (lack of) software management, the same (bloated) GUI environment, the same file browser — the same everything, at least among the parts of “everything” that MS deigns to let you have for the price you paid.

Or apotheon you could always buy the Home Basic

In reply to har de har har

And use a Cracking tool and then enter a Product Key for the Enterprise Edition as they are all on the 1 DVD and the Product Key activates different parts of the DVD. 😀

A cheap way to buy the Top of the Range Vista and quite probably legal here as well. :^0

Incidental what Legal protection is got by any company running M$ Packages? According to the EULA M$ offers no support of any kind and are certainly not legally responsible for any codding errors. If anything I would think that M$ Windows leaves many companies way more open to Legal Issues than a single Nix Distro ever could.

Col

Ok

In reply to har de har har

Windows may lack software management, you lack recognizable, brand name software.

Windows may be called bloated by you, it’s called feature rich by others.

We have the same everything (file browser, etc…it’s called standardization) and you have the same nothing and lots and lots of confusion. You use one piece of software, your buddy uses another, and your second buddy uses another. Harder to help one another isn’t it.

Is that what you call it?

In reply to har de har har

“[i]Windows may lack software management, you lack recognizable, brand name software.[/i]”
That tells me everything I need to know about how you choose software. Holy cow.

I suppose you think the name on the label is more important than the thread count, too.

“[i]Windows may be called bloated by you, it’s called feature rich by others.[/i]”
Considering I can have twice the features for a quarter the installed size, MS Windows is bloated no matter how many features you use to justify it.

“[i]We have the same everything (file browser, etc…it’s called standardization)[/i]”
No, it’s not. Standardization would involve industry standards. What MS has is the 1 Flavor Baskin-Robbins, with a new flavor under the same old name every few years just to confuse you.

“[i]you have the same nothing and lots and lots of confusion[/i]”
I suppose you’d find having to consider more than two political parties “confusing”, too.

“[i]You use one piece of software, your buddy uses another, and your second buddy uses another. Harder to help one another isn’t it.[/i]”
Actually, no . . . because on the rare occasion that the software isn’t using the same data formats and protocols, there are tools to translate. Too bad MS software can’t even manage that effectively between release versions.

You simply have no clue, rickk…

In reply to Corrections

[i]1) No company in their right mind would run a non-enterprise version of Linux (which does cost money) for several reasons, two of which would be support and legal protection.
[/i]

1) I think you should ask around before you assume no one is running an “non-enterprise” Linux without support. that is a BIG assumption on your part. Maybe we should ask jdclyde if he’s running any “non-enterprise” servers without a support pack from a distro creator?

2) The Linux is free, unless you get a big commercialised, customised job like Redhat.

3)Support is your option. If you have a Linux guru in house, why would you pay $1000s for support?

4) Legal protection from what? The GPL guarantees you the right to use, modify and run Linux with certain re-distribution conditions.

[i]2) Depending on how long you keep hardware, there comes a time when it becomes more expensive to maintain it than replacing it.[/i]

True. Of course until about 2 years ago, I could still get the motherboards I needed to use my ISA-16 MIDI interface card for $59 a piece. The RAM lasts forever. IDE hard drives are still cheap. That’s a machine I originally built in 1991. Go figure. Never got expensive for me.

All you really need to worry about with PCs usually is:

1) the hardware requirement for the OS to run reasonably well

2) the hardware requirement for the software to run reasonably well under said OS

[i]3) Read HAL 9000’s post. He is apparently at odds with you regarding the number of versions of MS Vista. He’s pretty pissed off there are over 14 different flavors yet you see 1. Nice. Just like the Linux community, can’t ever agree on anything.[/i]

Well, I never said there was 1 flavor of Vista…

There are dozens of Linux OSes out there from various distributors (Musix, Mepis, Xandros, Gentoo, Redhat, Fedora, Debian, SaxenOS, etc etc etc)

There are 6 flavors of Vista (from what I heard)…but…only one source to really get it from: Microsoft.

That’s why you’ll never see Linux in an anti-trust suit with the Feds…they don’t have a virtual monopoly…

and why you don’t see the EU suing any Linux for $3B either….cause they don’t abuse their user base.

Anyways…time to go home and have a beer.

Can you read at all? Obviously not!

In reply to Corrections

[i]3) Read HAL 9000’s post. He is apparently at odds with you regarding the number of versions of MS Vista. He’s pretty pissed off there are over 14 different flavors yet you see 1. Nice. Just like the Linux community, can’t ever agree on anything.[/i]

I never said anything like that and I’m certainly not Pissed Off that there are so many different versions which I might add are all just fractions of the complete thing with various bits disabled as you move down the chain in price.

But to be perfectly honest what does make me Irate is the constant FUD that you are pushing that there are only 4 version of Vista when even you know that this is wrong.

You Know that you [b]Really are an Idiot[/b] don’t you?

Now back on your Meds before the Shrink finds out that you’ve been refusing to take your prescribed Meds and straps you to the bed in the Loony Ward and inserts several IV Needles into you so you get the right dosage of the medication that you so obviously need.

But before the shrink catches you and straps you down and places you into a drug induced Coma just exactly what [b]Legal Protection[/b] do you get from running Windows? M$ in the EULA Specifically states that it has no responsibility for losses incurred by using the software and has no Legal Responsibility for any adverse things that happen while using their software So I ask Again [b]What Legal Protection are you Muttering About?[/b]

Col

hey now…

In reply to Can you read at all? Obviously not!

Nothing wrong with meds, HAL…

I’m on Rozerem…of course…that’s because I was stressed out to the point of sleeping 6-8 hours every 2-3 days. 😀

I’d prefer codeine tho 😀

I’m sorry JCK I didn’t mean to imply that there was

In reply to Can you read at all? Obviously not!

Anything wrong with prescription Meds just when you refuse to take them there are many adverse side effects which cause some people to jump off the deep end and become unreasonable.

Personally I’m on some very strong pain killers because 2 apprentices attacked and tried to kill me with a Road Ranger Gear Box.

Well maybe I could stop taking the Meds after a long operation and about 12 months to recover with at best a 20% chance of being slightly better and a bigger chance of being worse off. To me those are not odds that are suitable so I stick to the Imitation Opiates which are nonaddictive. I can work and do as I like so I’m happy. The Quacks however would like to perform a Spinal Fusion on 8 Vertebra and for some strange reason with the odds that they give I’m not interested maybe in a few years the Surgical Technology will have improved a lot and then maybe I’ll be interested.

The down side of Tramal is it stops you sleeping apparently so if you get 4 hours at a time that’s good. But since I’ve been living on less that 3 hours per day since my days at Uni in the 70’s I don’t notice any difference. :p

Col

I know…

In reply to Can you read at all? Obviously not!

I was joking…I’m horrible at humour til you see me do it in person…then you’ll get a good laugh

[i]”Drugs are bad…if you do drugs…you’re bad…mmmkay?”[/i]- Mr. Mackey from South Park

Yep

In reply to Thanks TT

Let me know if you want some hard facts- I have been researching from three base perspectives- home/end user, the kind of machine that we can foresee using VPN from their personal computing environment. While that is not encouraged, we do get the odd few who are stuck at home without the laptop and need to be in touch. We simply lock certain file types out of accessibility for compliance reasons.

The next perspective was the isolated business unit that needed the security of a Live disk using a pre-printed manual for configuration. This includes our business travelers who need to touch email and a few basic documents but may also need a safety net.

Finally I have explored the return on investment and total cost of ownership with an enterprise deployment. We have determined significant cost savings on hardware and maintenance but are struggling with the cost balance for app re-write. But the early results tell us that this could be our strategic direction. The early analysis with Vista has indicated that the same re-write effort would have to be undertaken with no balance to repay that investment.

From a pure security perspective, Linux suggests itself as the direction to investigate. I know that will change in time but early adoption will net best reward.

Might make some folks redundant as a result of fighting the corporate change. I have explored that element as well.

What’s the big Deal. . . .

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

It only takes less than 3 minutes to reactivate. 3 Days, plenty of time.
And in 2 years time, you’ll be using it and will have changed your tune, just like everyone did with XP. Now, everyone swears by XP (Windows fans, that is)

I know a lot of people who swear at XP

In reply to What’s the big Deal. . . .

But not to many who swear by it.

I need these units running 24/7 and after I went to bed last night for some reason best known to this computer which is on a UPS that will provide power for 36 hours if required it restarted and when I came in this mourning I was greeted by a screen saver at the Log In Screen.

I’ll let you guess the first 2 words out of my mouth when I saw this and they had absolutely nothing to do with how great XP Pro isn’t.

Then for the next 3 hours MSN Messenger wouldn’t log on as the server at the other end was down. I got several phone calls where the people where swearing at XP again because it wasn’t working. If Messenger isn’t working it costs them money to ring me, instead of typing in a message for service and having it happen almost immediately. With at first a remote attempt to fix a problem and if it’s then required a tech is dispatched to do the necessary work.

But the thing here is the problem of WGA shutting down a system when you push out software from a server. If this happens every time that you add a few pieces of software it takes far longer to reactivate every computer than just a few minutes. With 30 computers you’ll be looking at several hours and that’s if you can get straight to them as you need to ring M$ not do it on the Internet.

If WGA Kills off the OS like it’s been known to do with XP you need to perform an In-place Install and that takes far longer than a couple of minutes more like 60 Minutes per machine then when Vista is concerned you need to activate and then apply any available updates. Now it will only be slightly over 1 hour per machine but when you have everyone screaming at you to [b]FIX IT NOW!!!![/b] However in a few years when there are several hundred MEG of Updates & a Service Pack involved it’s going to take longer per machine.

Granted it’s not a problem in a domestic situation all you need do is return it to the service department and wait two to three weeks to get it reactivated and returned but it’s a major problem in an industrial situation and if there are any Medical Units involved it only gets worse.

Col

Two Things, HAL

In reply to I know a lot of people who swear at XP

1) What kind of UPS is that? Must be running diesel. 36 hours? For a PC? I’m lucky to get 20 minutes or so. Mine is consumer quality but even if I spent more and got a server type, I’d be lucky to get a few hours.

2) All your calculations assume WGA happens all the time. I have yet to have it happen a single time at my company of over 100 PC’s in 2 years and only once in my after hours consulting gig.

Once is enough and actually 5 times too often for my liking

In reply to Two Things, HAL

But as there where only 2,500 workstations involved and every one needed an [b]In Place Install[/b] to be able to be used again you might think that I’m more than a bit [b]Pissed Off[/b] with M$ and guess what you’d be right. 😀

I’ve also had the same thing happen to every product supplied by M$ in one of their Action Packs so apparently M$ is opting for total coverage and control by selling Genuine and Pirate Software. If you want Total Control you need to Totally Control the market don’t you?

As for your UPS’s It’s not my fault that you buy the cheap ones that are not good enough to be rated to a decent level it’s your fault for spending your money more wisely isn’t it? :^0

Col

That’s One Fifth of One Percent

In reply to Once is enough and actually 5 times too often for my liking

.2% failure rate (5 divided by 2,500). Sounds excellent to me!

If you read TR often enough, you’d think that WGA fails a lot more often than that.

. . . of what?

In reply to That’s One Fifth of One Percent

You’re not considering the metric very well. Yes, .2% failure rate isn’t all [b]that[/b] bad — if you’re talking about .2% failure total, for everything. If it’s just .2% failure rate of a single piece of software that can bring down an entire system, not even counting the failure rates attributable to other causes, that can add up.

Plus, y’know, that’s a .2% failure rate [b]for unacceptable reasons[/b]. It’s failing .2% more often simply because of something that is in no way, at all, necessary to your effective use of the software — except that Microsoft decided you needed it. Screw that.

Unacceptable To You

In reply to . . . of what?

But lots of people are willing to live with it and are accepting it.

inaccurate description of conditions

In reply to . . . of what?

You say that lots of people are willing to live with it. That’s not really true. It’s more the case that lots of people think that’s just the way it is, and they pretty much [b]have to[/b] live with it. Only a few — like you — actually [b]choose[/b] to be treated like criminals without just cause, and to risk system shutdown because Microsoft doesn’t give a hot damn about whether its customers are happy, with free will and all the facts within their grasp.

apotheon: Microsoft decided that [u]who[/u] needed it?

In reply to . . . of what?

[i]You’re not considering the metric very well. Yes, .2% failure rate isn’t all that bad — if you’re talking about .2% failure total, for everything. If it’s just .2% failure rate of a single piece of software that can bring down an entire system, not even counting the failure rates attributable to other causes, that can add up.

Plus, y’know, that’s a .2% failure rate for unacceptable reasons. It’s failing .2% more often simply because of something that is in no way, at all, necessary to your effective use of the software — except that Microsoft decided [u]you needed it[/u]. Screw that.[/i]

Microsoft decided they needed it, because they haven’t been able to secure their software from piracy without methods that are invasive to legitimate, paying customers. Enthusiastic agreement to all the rest of your post, especially the last 2 words of it.

WGA: Who needs it?

In reply to . . . of what?

I get the impression Microsoft can’t really differentiate effectively between itself and its customer base on such issues. Thus, “you” and “it” are synonymous from Microsoft’s point of view.

That’s my working theory, anyhow.

Or the other way of looking at it is

In reply to That’s One Fifth of One Percent

100% Failure rate in one business supplied directly by M$ as a Government Volume License buyer. Not by a reseller but M$ directly and they still blacklisted this Product key 2 weeks after issuing a new one to allow SP2 to be installed onto the entire network. They also had to reissue the Product Key for SP1 to be applied as well perhaps you are seeing some king of trend developing here.

Col

Funny

In reply to Or the other way of looking at it is

How you are always the one that steps in the biggest piles of doggy doo.

I’ve never heard of anyone suffer from so many Windows problems as you and the scale of the problems either.

Makes me seriously question you and not the products.

Obviously you have never had the experience of

In reply to Or the other way of looking at it is

volume license headaches.
I didnt get hit by this, but the company that I work for was, several thousand machines had to have new product keys because some dumba$$ that worked here posted the keys on the Internet

Re: Obviously you have never had the experience of

In reply to Or the other way of looking at it is

I’ll grant you that one, except MS should have contacted the company, gave them a deadline for compliance and then revoke the keys.

MS shouldn’t be responsible for some dumbass putting volume license information on-line. The company that the dumbass works for SHOULD be. Absolutely.

The only difference is MS could of and should of cooperated with the company and allowed them time to make the necessary adjustments.

Hey Col! Here’s some help with the [i]TR VILLAGE IDIOT[/i]

In reply to Once is enough and actually 5 times too often for my liking

.
I’m not speaking to our little [i]TR VILLAGE IDIOT[/i]. Until he’s willing and able to behave like an adult instead of a 12-year old harassing the grown-ups, I’m going to try to ignore him. But, here’s some help for you:

[b][i]THE IDIOT[/i] has personally witnessed about a 1% WGA failure rate[/b] (1)

According to this website (2), there have been 855 million Windows PCs sold between 2001 and 2006. Windows XP was the version of Windows being sold during this period.

[i]THE IDIOT’S[/i] personally observed WGA failure rate: About 1 in 100 = 1% x 855M = 8.55 MILLION legitimate customers affected by WGA failures.

This is not even close to an acceptable failure rate for a critical “feature” like WGA, one that can render the system unusable. WGA should be judged by the same criteria as any other critical Windows feature such as disk I/O. If Windows had a 1% disk I/O [u]software[/u] failure rate, Windows would be declared to be unreliable and people would seek more reliable solutions.

Even worse: This statistic is for Windows XP. Vista’s WGA is much more aggressive.

Linux’ WGA failure rate: 0%. Priceless. ;\

——————————–

(1) [i]THE IDIOT[/i] has personally observed about a 1% failure rate:
[i]”…I have yet to have it happen a single time at my company of over 100 PC’s in 2 years and only once in my after hours consulting gig…”[/i]
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=212977&messageID=2193334

(2) 25-Year PC Anniversary Statistics
http://www.c-i-a.com/pr0806.htm

Can I butt in? TR VILLAGE IDIOT

In reply to Hey Col! Here’s some help with the [i]TR VILLAGE IDIOT[/i]

I was a contender!

I was robbed.

:p

You can still…

In reply to Can I butt in? TR VILLAGE IDIOT

.
You can still claim to be part of the “riffraff” and the “biggest idiot” if you wish! :^0 (1)

I don’t think of you that way, but I’ll play along if it makes you happy! :p

P.S. Your avatar “movies” are very entertaining!

——————-

(1) http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=213495&messageID=2186066

I know, I know… and…

In reply to Can I butt in? TR VILLAGE IDIOT

… I s’pose it would frickin’ kill you to send me a frickin’ email, woodentit, ya’ frickin’ TechExec2.

(bejeebus dood) :0

Note to you: (and Mr. Dawgit, and JD too) – See my godda… goldang profile for a stoopid email address.

Foo’s.

Trust me.

I’ve already been down THAT frickin’ “share-too-much-stuff-online at TR-with- who-knows-who” road!

I am now Mr. Total Discretion personified.

Ask anyone. 😀

Trust moi!?!

Please.

Do I sound the least bit bitter?

—–

What was I saying?

Thanks for the avatar movie thing.

It keeps me out of the bars and off of the streets. Beats the hell out of jail.

OK. OK.

I’ll say it…

I miss all y’all.

BTW-Mr. Mudd is on Star Trek.

Shoot me. Shoot me now.

Edited because HTML still kicks my butt.

Actually I really feel sorry for the Village ID10T as well

In reply to Hey Col! Here’s some help with the [i]TR VILLAGE IDIOT[/i]

But I just fell out of my chair laughing at his comment that it must be me who is at fault. 😀

Lets see I didn’t supply a Single Machine, 1 Single Bit of Software to this place but was recommended to go in there by M$ to sort out the problems that they had with the original Big LAN install on XP.

I didn’t monitor the Install or upkeep it I and my staff only got called in by the Bureaucrats when they messed it up but I’m responsible for the Mess. 😀 :^0

Actually The poor fool is quoting M$ directly with the 1% problem with WGA as that is the Official Figure provided by M$ and last used at the Official Partners Meeting on 8 November 2006. Even the way that M$ arrived at this figure leaves a lot to be desired and the figure is heavily fudged and more like 5 – 8 % really with real problems created by WGA directly and it’s much higher if you look at what happens if WGA is turned off.

Even Mark O Shea who is M$ Technical Head of Staff in AU admits this but the Village Idiot must have seen a Power Point Slide and just grasped on the 1% without any real knowledge of how that figure was arrived at and much more importantly what it really meant. 😀

Now if just 1% of all airline travellers where killed in air crashes just how many people do you think would remain flying? 😀

Actually I’m surprised that he hasn’t complained about the link that I gave him to look at yet. I really expected some response much sooner, but as he only choses to look at what he likes I’m supposing that he’s yet to actually see it. :^0

Just like so much of the other stuff that’s been posted here that doesn’t suit him to read as it frightens him too much. 😀

Col

Few Points

In reply to Actually I really feel sorry for the Village ID10T as well

Thanks for speaking for me but really, I can do that myself.

1) I didn’t quote the 1% number. You guys have a reading problem. I only quoted your .2% problem.

2) You seem to have a consultant attitude problem. That’s not the first time you’ve mentioned “Bureaucrats” screwing things up. Do you really have that much disrespect for your clients?

3) I never said you sold or installed anything in your above example. Again, reading problem on your part.

4) I’d hardly equate people dying with a PC crashing

5) Can you prove your 5-8% number? Unlikely, doubtful and definitely more FUD.

VERY few points, from you, rickk

In reply to Actually I really feel sorry for the Village ID10T as well

“[i]I didn’t quote the 1% number. You guys have a reading problem. I only quoted your .2% problem.[/i]”
Actually, TechExec2 quoted your figures — which don’t include an explicit 1% rate, but could easily be interpreted as a (roughly) 1% rate.

“[i]You seem to have a consultant attitude problem. That’s not the first time you’ve mentioned “Bureaucrats” screwing things up. Do you really have that much disrespect for your clients?[/i]”
Do you always brown-nose with bureaucrats? Why don’t you try to stay on topic [b]for once[/b] rather than turning everything into straw men and ad hominem fallacies?

“[i]I never said you sold or installed anything in your above example. Again, reading problem on your part.[/i]”
No, you didn’t say he did that — you just claimed that the MS Windows problems he encountered were probably his fault. That would require installing, selling, or maintaining the systems while they failed. He addressed that. Your weak, pathetic attempt to weasel out of culpability for your earlier attack on him personally isn’t working.

“[i]I’d hardly equate people dying with a PC crashing[/i]”
Nor would Hal or I. On the other hand, a computer crashing could conceivably cause many deaths (I suppose you didn’t read about the air traffic control server migrated from Unix to MS Windows that needed a reboot every forty-some days so it wouldn’t crash — and someone forgot to reboot it once). Regardless, the fact that an OS crashing isn’t (usually) as serious in its effects as an airplane crashing doesn’t change the fact that an OS that crashes all the time is just a result of shoddy workmanship.

HAL isn’t claiming the results are identical. In fact, he’s saying that, given the same hypothetical failure rate for airplanes, it seems likely that the only reason people continue to use MS Windows is that it doesn’t usually kill them when it crashes. That should have been painfully obvious from what he said.

Then again, we all know you lack in the reading comprehension department.

“[i]Can you prove your 5-8% number? Unlikely, doubtful and definitely more FUD.[/i]”
After that statement, if you ever bring up personal experience again as “proof” of something, you’ll be called a hypocrite (again), unless you retract this statement. Good job — you’ve painted yourself into another corner.

Come on, tell us the truth. You paint yourself into corners because you like it. You enjoy getting high on the fumes. Right?

Apotheon

In reply to Actually I really feel sorry for the Village ID10T as well

You’re losing your mental sanity.

“Actually, TechExec2 quoted your figures — which don’t include an explicit 1% rate, but could easily be interpreted as a (roughly) 1% rate.”

So, TechExec2 “quotes” me but gives the wrong number so that’s still called a “quote” to you? Nice.

And I laugh at your fuzzy math. You know, my 6 year old knows that .5 and up rounds up and .4 and down rounds down. You’ve chosen to round .2 all the way up to 1. Nice.

“Do you always brown-nose with bureaucrats?”

No, but I also treat my clients with a bit more respect than calling them names like bureaucrats and blaming them for everything that goes wrong.

“Your weak, pathetic attempt to weasel out of culpability”

Why? Because I’ve never heard of 2,500 PC’s all failing WGA at the same time? Someone made a HUGE freaking mistake.

As far as PC vs airplanes, he brought it up not me. He is insinuating something and you then later try to retract it. If that was his point, he should of just mentioned “shoddy workmanship” instead of people dying on airplanes.

No corners here. Just waiting for someone to prove 5-8% failure rates for WGA. You and Hal believe it (obviously) so prove it.

Your memory is really short.

In reply to Actually I really feel sorry for the Village ID10T as well

“[i]And I laugh at your fuzzy math. You know, my 6 year old knows that .5 and up rounds up and .4 and down rounds down. You’ve chosen to round .2 all the way up to 1. Nice.[/i]”
That wasn’t the figure to which TechExec2 referred, dipsh*t.

“[i]No, but I also treat my clients with a bit more respect than calling them names like bureaucrats and blaming them for everything that goes wrong.[/i]”
Apparently you’re not aware of this, but “bureaucrat” isn’t a synonym for “dipsh*t”. It’s a real, non-obscene word. It’s not “calling them names” to refer to someone as a bureaucrat.

It is, however, nicely descriptive.

“[i]’Your weak, pathetic attempt to weasel out of culpability’

Why? Because I’ve never heard of 2,500 PC’s all failing WGA at the same time? Someone made a HUGE freaking mistake.[/i]”

No, because you made personal attacks. Let’s just quote myself [b]in full[/b] this time:

“No, you didn’t say he did that [he sold or installed anything] — you just claimed that the MS Windows problems he encountered were probably his fault. That would require installing, selling, or maintaining the systems while they failed. He addressed that. Your weak, pathetic attempt to weasel out of culpability for your earlier attack on him personally isn’t working.”

See how the statement means something completely unconnected with your response when you can see the [b]whole thing[/b]?

If I was ever unsure that you were a malicious little troll, dishonest and generally as ethically soiled as anyone else who has come through TR, this pretty much disabused me of that uncertainty.

“[i]As far as PC vs airplanes, he brought it up not me. He is insinuating something and you then later try to retract it.[/i]”
Uh, no, that’s not what happened. I’d blame this on your reading comprehension issues, but the previous bit of the exchange proved you’re actually [b]evil[/b], not just [b]stupid[/b].

“[i]If that was his point, he should of just mentioned “shoddy workmanship” instead of people dying on airplanes.[/i]”
The word you should look up in the dictionary now is “analogy”. Oh, wait, you didn’t misunderstand — you just decided to intentionally skew the conversation dishonestly, rather than honestly replying to what was said.

It’s going to be difficult to adjust to this newfound realization that you’re simply a bad person, rather than missing the point most of the time.

“[i]No corners here. Just waiting for someone to prove 5-8% failure rates for WGA. You and Hal believe it (obviously) so prove it.[/i]”
I didn’t say anything about what failure rate I believe to be accurate. You must be making that up, since it’s pretty obvious that you’re not just making mistakes. No, you’ve been dishonest and malicious, not careless.

I don’t recall HAL claiming a universal 5-8% failure rate, either, though he very well may have claimed an anecdotal 5-8% failure rate. I’d definitely believe [b]that[/b]. Since I don’t feel like searching through previous posts to determine what exactly HAL said, to compare it against what you’re claiming he said, I’ll just assume you made that up. That’s what your track record proves, in light of the above-referenced obvious intentional attempt at deceptive debate tactics. Your potential claims to innocence have been obviated.

Good job.

Just wanted to say thanks to Rickk

In reply to Actually I really feel sorry for the Village ID10T as well

Rickk for all your wild thrashing around trying to change what someone has said when the back button is there to prove you wrong and for all your other assumptions that the people reading your efforts are so much dumber than you that you can speak to them the way you do and expect to be taken seriously, for all this thank you.

You give me more deep sessions of laughter than most comedy sites. If you were someone who seemed to be making these mistakes while acting in good faith there would be some sympathy. But you show yourself to be acting, very obviously, in bad faith so it’s just a pleasure to point and laugh, and laugh, and laugh, and laugh, and laugh, and laugh, and laugh, and laugh, and laugh, right at you.

What’s the big deal? The answer is…

In reply to What’s the big Deal. . . .

.
The answer is that Microsoft has put a troublesome WGA “bomb” into Vista with the new aggressive trigger. Lots of normal events trigger it. Consider these questions:

– Will you always get at least 3 days? Not necessarily. How will you know? You really cannot be sure. What about bugs? Even if you do, what happens if the countdown starts on Friday after you leave for a 3-day weekend. When you return on Tuesday, the system is already in “reduced functionality mode”?

– What happens when you’re on the road and without easy/good access to the Internet?

– Will online reactivation always work? No. Sometimes you’ll have to call Microsoft.

– When you call Microsoft, will the human-to-computer system always enable you to reactivate? No. Sometimes you’ll have to wait to talk to a real person.

– When you end up speaking to a real person, will that person always reactivate you? Not if they think you have a pirated copy, no.

– Will the de-activation only occur when it doesn’t really matter to you? No. Odds are, it will typically happen when you are actively using your computer.

– Will malware trigger it? Probably. If application software doing normal things can trigger it, malware can trigger it. And, of course, malware will also advance the clock in order to provide for IMMEDIATE reduced functionality mode. Lovely! (…are you convinced this is complete lunacy by Microsoft yet? No? I’ll continue…)

– Will Longhorn servers deactivate? I’m sure the answer is yes. This is all about Microsoft shutting down the pirates. So, how exactly are you going to be notified of that? Will it happen before or after the server outage causes you economic loss?

– When you roll out software updates to hundreds or thousands of Vista workstations, how many of them will be deactivated for whatever reason? How many times each year? How much time is the LAN administrator going to have to devote to these reactivations? How much staff productivity is going to be lost?

– Will TechExec2 ever sign up for this nonsense? No. I’ve got better things to do with my time than dance on Microsoft’s string.

—

I think what Microsoft has chosen to do is completely unacceptable. It is a stunningly stupid and arrogant thing that they have done. Microsoft claims to have a piracy problem, yet they sold $44B and made $18B profit last year. Yup, the piracy is out of control. No. This is naked greed and Microsoft thinks they can force the entire world to submit to this.

I’ve been using Windows since 1992. I like Windows a lot (but it’s not perfect). I beta tested Vista, liked it, and was going to upgrade in about 12 months when it is really ready. But, I’m not ever going to run Vista on my primary computers. I’m going to switch to a safe and sane operating system instead: Linux.

Nobody has to keep running Windows anymore unless they don’t know any better. Today’s Linux is good enough to replace Windows. And, it will be even better next year.

edit: clarifications

I will never use Vista

In reply to What’s the big Deal. . . .

So my tune will NOT change.

XP had it’s fits and starts- but knowledgeable people let a lot of the problems go.

Sure, there was a lot of talk. Let’s compare.

XP was “different” but you could still do all the same stuff. Vista? Not so much. The baseline Vista- OEM to many new machines- is so different to XP that many users can’t install their MFD printers. Maybe because those drivers don’t exist yet, and possibly never will.

… and the list can go on… but it is late.

I swear AT Windows. And I have been using Microsoft as long as TE2. Now I am finding sensible alternatives.

Edit- lack of sleep

Printer Drivers

In reply to I will never use Vista

How is that MS’s fault?

Driver issues have forever ever been a problem with Linux yet Linux supporters say it’s the manufacturers problem.

So, I’ll use that same argument here. It’s the manufacturer’s problem.

Fine.

In reply to Printer Drivers

Use that argument if you like. Now that you have, though, you’re stuck with it.

. . . except that with CUPS (the Common Unix Printing System), there are generic and manufacturer-specific drivers for a whole bunch of printers that were created by the open source community, mostly without any help from vendors. It seems to me that, considering the level of support from vendors (almost none), Linux and *BSD are ahead of the game. Imagine what driver support MS Windows would have without vendor support — none, basically.

Ok

In reply to Fine.

I have yet to get a Linux distro to recognize my Lexmark printer. Tried 5 different distros to date.

Your statements are as hollow as political sound bites on the nightly news.

I don’t have to “imagine” MS driver support without vendor support. Vendors provide drivers all the time for MS OS’s. Vista is an exception because it is so new. Give it time.

I just installed Win XP Pro on a laptop that must be 5-7 years old (PIII 450 Mhz) and every single device was recognized on OS installation. That was impressive.

On the other hand, 75% of the time I have to “tweak” Linux using archaic command line statements just to get my monitor resolution higher than 800X600.

Ever try 800X600 on a laptop?

re: Lexmark, anticompetitive practices, and quality printers

In reply to Ok

Lexmark actually goes out of its way to use anticompetitive practices to maintain its market share. It’s like the Little Microsoft of printers. Lexmark actually goes out of its way to make its printers difficult to set up and configure unless you do it in Lexmark’s specific, approved fashion. There were lawsuits related to this, about four or five years ago.

While I, too, find it annoying that some printers don’t work so well with Linux (or other non-MS operating systems), I also find it even more annoying that Microsoft is way behind the power curve on support for quality printers. For instance, many Postscript laser printers (such as certain HP LaserJets) are positively a bear to set up for use with Windows, whereas two minutes with the CUPS web interface is all it takes to configure a Linux or FreeBSD system to use the same printer.

I lucked out with the HP 4050N that I recently picked up on the cheap. MS Windows XP actually has a driver for it, and since I’m not the only person using this printer there was actually a need for access to this Postscript laser printer with integrated print server. It only took me about ten minutes to get it working with MS Windows.

It only takes about forty-five seconds to configure CUPS at the command line to use the thing (if you know how to use the CLI configuration tools for CUPS).

I imagine things will be similar with the Postscript laser printer from Dell that I recently picked up. Postscript is the holy grail of network printing for almost every OS on the planet, and the bugbear of printing from MS Windows.

“[i]On the other hand, 75% of the time I have to ‘tweak’ Linux using archaic command line statements just to get my monitor resolution higher than 800X600.[/i]”
Archaic command line statements?

That pretty much sums up your ignorance of the state of the art of computer operating systems, right there.

“[i]Ever try 800X600 on a laptop?[/i]”
Yeah. I have an old laptop that isn’t capable of 800×600. The screen finally went out on the thing. It worked fine. What’s the problem?

So

In reply to re: Lexmark, anticompetitive practices, and quality printers

The fact that every Linux install I’ve done can’t get my screen resolution correct out of the box without tweaking doesn’t concern anyone? Typical of Linux!

If you are happy with 800X600, more power to you. I prefer at least 1024X768 or 1280X1024 depending on my monitor.

As far as Lexmark goes, again, typical open source, Linux speak. If something doesn’t work, blame the manufacturer and not the OS. Funny thing is, Lexmarks work just fine on my Windows box.

Wow. I guess you must love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning.

In reply to re: Lexmark, anticompetitive practices, and quality printers

“[i]The fact that every Linux install I’ve done can’t get my screen resolution correct out of the box without tweaking doesn’t concern anyone? Typical of Linux![/i]”
That should concern [b]you[/b]! My god, what are you doing wrong?

I’d be a lot more inclined to be helpful, by the way, if you weren’t the poster boy for anti-Linux trolling. As things stand, however, I’m inclined to believe you’re lying, or putting spin on the situation (100% of one time, for instance), or something like that. I’d be more credulous if Palmetto, or someone else reasonable about the whole thing, reported such statistics. You, though — no friggin’ way.

Anyway, it’s not like I haven’t had to “tweak” things to get resolution correct on MS Windows. I’ve had to install drivers just to get resolution on XP over 640×480 several times — never had that problem with Linux. Even better, I “love” it when I change the resolution on MS Windows and it decides that it now has to alter the color depth to something like 8-bit color. That’s always fun.

“[i]As far as Lexmark goes, again, typical open source, Linux speak. If something doesn’t work, blame the manufacturer and not the OS. Funny thing is, Lexmarks work just fine on my Windows box.[/i]”
I can only assume that you are completely incapable of recognizing when a manufacturer has its head up its fourth point of contact. Did you miss the word “lawsuits” in my previous post?

Anyway, you’re not allowed to make that argument any longer. You’ve accepted the “vendor’s fault” argument for MS Windows. To reject it for anything else is just pure, blatant hypocrisy.

It didn’t take long for that to happen.

Well try this out

In reply to Ok

A reseller who is a [b]M$ Certified Small Business Specialist[/b] sells a Business a new server with 2003 64 Bit edition on it and a Lexmark Colour Laser printer to connect directly to this server which was brought specifically as a Print & File server.

Any ideas how long the person spent in attempting to set up that Lexmark Printer on that server? After using the supplied Drivers on the CD they posted a question on the Q&A Section here at TR I might add that you where very noticeable by your absence in helping the person who was asking the question as well but as Lexmark don’t supply 64 Bit drivers that printer couldn’t be installed to that Print Server.

I suppose things like that don’t count when it comes to Windows Problems though do they? :^0

It isn’t even a Manufacturer issue but a act of theft by the reseller isn’t it?

Col

Sure Thing

In reply to Well try this out

First off, yes that business specialist shouldn’t have sold them something unless it had been known to work.

Second, you are talking about 64 bit. Drivers are scarce at best. Yes, that is Lexmark’s fault and not Windows.

Third, no I didn’t attempt to help that person in their TR post as 1) I’m not skilled in the art of device driver writing and 2) I haven’t been in the help section of TR lately.

not satisfied with just one example of hypocrisy

In reply to Well try this out

“[i]Second, you are talking about 64 bit. Drivers are scarce at best.[/i]”
Funny . . . Linux drivers tend to handle 64 bit systems just fine. I guess that doesn’t count, though, since only stuff MS Windows supports counts.

“[i]Yes, that is Lexmark’s fault and not Windows.[/i]”
Hypocrisy again. Pick a side. Do you blame the manufacturer/vendor, or not?

When the default

In reply to Printer Drivers

Breaks your less than one year old peripherals, I have a few questions.

When I see people struggle to get their email because they have been given another MS F*ck job, I have an issue.

I have not had a problem with Linux (try checking the history of every problem I have ever posted here). Linux works with most hardware.

Possibly you have mistakenly shoved your head up your arse. Pity, really.

Sorry You Feel That Way

In reply to When the default

And you are apparently losing your temper too.

I guess you’re just really good at what you do.

In reply to Sorry You Feel That Way

Trolling, I mean.

edit: On the other hand, it didn’t look to me like she was losing her temper. She just seems to have lost a little of her (previously, apparently limitless) patience with you.

Not particularly

In reply to Sorry You Feel That Way

I simply have found it helpful to point out when that particular mistake has been made.

So I shouldn’t list psychic on your list of job skills?

Oh Boy!

In reply to What’s the big Deal. . . .

Prepare to be flamed.

While I agree with you, you have to understand that everyday is the day that Linux is going to take over the world and bring down MS to these people even though they repeat this mantra day in and day out for 10 years.

Really?

In reply to Oh Boy!

Perhaps you can quote someone saying that.

And Stallman doesn’t count

In reply to Really?

But you likely would have to google him to understand why.

Oh. And understand what FOSS, FLOSS, GNU, and CopyLeft mean.

And prepare to defend them.

And understand the history.

Oh, incidentally? Some of us LIVED that history. We can pass it down or take it to the grave… and watch y’all make fools of yourselves covering ground that has already been covered.

You don’t get it. But like a 9 year old you are throwing a tantrum.

How boring is that? I know how boring you are becoming.

Thanks.

In reply to And Stallman doesn’t count

It’s always nice when someone who understands my point adds to it substantively.

Wanted – Vista disk

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I want to make a coaster. I need a new source, AOL doesn’t send them out anymore. The track has to be in good shape ( scratch free ), the print side doesn’t matter since the felt will be glued to this side.

Once I have this built I will inform all if the ‘bomb’ ever goes off if I put unauthorized drinking cups on the coaster.

🙂

Order Ubuntu

In reply to Wanted – Vista disk

There’s a 6 CD set available for free 🙂

wow

In reply to Order Ubuntu

Apparently, Ubuntu is even a better value for coasters, and not just as software. That’s amazing.

And to think

In reply to wow

I have been wasting my time with bad disks as coasters. I could have gotten the genuine set!

You do know you are wrong

In reply to Order Ubuntu

If you order Ubuntu from their web site, you only get one disk in the mail…but whatever.

Aww shucks!

In reply to You do know you are wrong

so now I cannot get a matched set then….

Ubuntu

In reply to You do know you are wrong

I got 6 cds free of charge..don`t know if they have changed this practice, however.

Don`t want a coaster?

In reply to Wanted – Vista disk

Want something “that just works?”….try PCLinuxOS.

Peace Out!

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

This post has become way too long, way too time consuming.

I’ll just end on this note:

Both Windows and Linux have their advantages and both have their disadvantages.

We can argue until the cows come home and won’t accomplish anything.

I’ve picked my OS of choice, others have picked theirs.

There are many, many reasons why one chooses one OS over another and without going into detail as that just ask for more arguing, I’ve got mine and I’m more than happy with it.

You may have a different one, disagree with me and that’s great. Won’t change a thing on my part.

But isn’t that the beauty here? Choice is good and I’ve never said it isn’t. Even if your choice is wrong for me and my choice is wrong for you.

I agree but here’s a better way to reactivate Vista

In reply to Peace Out!

http://www.seagate.com/staticfiles/maxtor/en_us/downloads/maxblast4.exe

download this program.

This is the way I reinstall now.

Get your computer setup the way you want it. Add an additional hard drive that is at least the same size as your C: drive?s used space. Run this program and you set up your additional drive as the new boot drive. After it has copied all the files to the new boot drive turn off the computer and remove the new boot drive. Now that drive is an exact clone of the normal boot drive(also known as Ghosting). Now any time you need to reinstall put that drive back in as master boot drive and then run maxblaster to setup your screwed up drive as new boot drive. After it copies files put it back the original way and you are right exactly back to the spot where you set it up the way you wanted it. It only takes a fraction of the time as reinstalling everything. And if it is a legal version of Vista you don?t have to reactivate it. But FUCK Microsoft, use pirated. I had a legal copy and they will only let you reinstall 3 times. (That was before I figured out this way of doing it). So always carry your clone with you. Plus you can burn it as an ISO and post it on the internet and rip it on a DVD with programs from Doom9.org.

Seagate

In reply to I agree but here’s a better way to reactivate Vista

Does this only work with Seagate Hard Drives?

OK it’s been a while

In reply to Seagate

But the Last time that I used Max Blast provided that you had 1 Seagate HDD it would work. I used to have a 2.5 inch Seagate Drive in a USB Caddy that I could plug in and that allowed the Max Blast to work on different Brand Drives.

I don’t know if that’s been changed but if it has I still have an old copy of Max Blast here if you would like a copy.

Col

Its all about the M$

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

Let’s be realistic, M$ is looking down the barrel of a open source, google/yahoo/redhat/ubuntu gun and it doesn’t look pretty. I was reading an article in Information Week (I think; I can’t remember exactly) about why Vista might be a turning point for people to try linux and I have to agree; stuff like this where re-registering your stuff just because you changed something (though I thought it had to be something like a HD or Processor) or face deactivation and loss of access to your stuff really is pushing people to look to other venues. Good luck to you on your use of Vista; I know for right now, Solaris 10/Fedora 6/Windows XP are working fine for me.

Vista WGA is more aggressive than XP WGA

In reply to Its all about the M$

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You’re right. WGA in XP might only de-activate Windows when you make a significant hardware change (even then it caused a lot of problems for a lot of people (1). Vista is not off to a very good start (2). Microsoft has made WGA much more aggressive in Vista. Now it can de-activate merely by actions taken by software (or malware!).

Thanks for your good wishes, but I’m never going to run Vista on my primary computers. I refuse to accept Microsoft’s stunningly stupid very arrogant nonsense. And, it’s not even necessary. In fact, I am typing this post on a Fedora 6 Linux system that will never de-activate.

Take care…

————————-

(1) 1.13 million hits on Google: windows xp activation problem
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=windows+xp+activation+problem&btnG=Google+Search

(2) 1.01 million hits on Google: windows vista activation problem
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=windows+vista+activation+problem&btnG=Search

congratulations

In reply to Vista WGA is more aggressive than XP WGA

Unfortunately, my cynicism causes me to question whether you might be the rule or the exception. It occurs to me that most MS Windows users might at first think “Man, I should just switch to Linux!” or something along those lines, but then decide “Well, I already have Vista on this box, so I’ll stick with it for a while.” Then, Microsoft’s firefighting and the user’s diligence will eventually result in an operating system install that is just stable enough to keep them from deciding to switch. “I should switch!” will turn into “I should switch the next time Microsoft comes out with a new Windows, ’cause it’ll happen all over again!”

. . . then, by the time the new release comes out, they’ll have forgotten about the early problems for the most part, and will get the “upgrade”. The whole cycle will repeat. That’s what happened with SP2 — a bunch of people initially incensed by the whole deal, ultimately sheep lining up to buy new computers with Vista on them.

I hold out hope that I’m wrong for more people than I expect, but as I said my cynicism prompts me to think of these things. C’est la vie.

Thanks…

In reply to congratulations

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I’m having fun with my Leaving Windows project.

I think we share cynicism about Windows-to-Linux switchers over this Vista WGA nonsense. I think I am more of an exception than the rule also. I think a lot of people will wait on upgrading from XP to Vista for a long time, much longer than those who waited to upgrade to XP. And, while they are holding off, there is an opportunity for Linux advocates to help them switch like never before.

————————-

P.S. I would not be surprised if something close to your description of the sequence of events appeared on a white board somewhere in Redmond last year. Your cynicism is justified.

He may be paranoid, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t trying to get him! :^0

you’re both dead-on

In reply to Thanks…

Microsoft for years has had the attitude that they would do just enough to keep the masses happy.

Plus, it doesn’t help that the general public is now so willing to tolerate mediochrity in products they shell out so much money for all the time…like Windows. If people were more intolerant of the lacking in most modern consumer goods…we’d have better things.

It is sad more people don’t just go to Linux on the purchase of a new PC…I haven’t seen a piece of software you can get for Windows that you can’t get an equivalent for Linux.

BTW…2 of 6 machines now on Linux now…1 full-time…one dual-booting with XP Pro x64.

I’ll be converted/dual-booting by the end of the year on all 6…hopefully.

i looked at a lot of the headers on

In reply to Vista WGA is more aggressive than XP WGA

i looked at a lot of the headers on the goggle search and most of it is for vista betas blogs like this one where nothing but people are arguing back and forth.

I’m using vista and xp and to tell you the truth I’m not using xp much any more now that software patch’s are out there and stable drivers

vista seems to be a fine os just to see how far i would have to go before reactivating vista.

1.i changed all my memory nothing happened the world did not end

2. i changed out my video card from an nvidia
to an ATI just to be sure that windows vista knew it was a new video card windows did not ask to reactivate

3. i added 2 harddirves to my box nothing yet

4. i changed out the sound card nothing yet

5. now i put everything back the way it was and still no request to reactivate

now i have a disk image of vista so i took the hdd out that had vista on it and put in one of my other hdd’s and installed the image.

this time it did act me to reactivate no big deal took about 30sec.

so i changed out the CPU and it asked for a reactivation but than again it took about 30 sec.

then i put my box back the way it was and installed the image

so from the test that i did it takes a lot to have to reactivate..

and then it does not take that much to do it

now I’m not saying there are not some that are having real problems reactivating I’m sure there are…

but the bug will get worked out and i dought Linux is going to take over the world from the .5% of the desktop market they have now this happens every time Microsoft comes out with a new os..

if ya don’t like it don’t use it is all can say

i am not putting Linux down ether i use it to on an older box it is great for older computers and thats what i use it for

and mac well if you want to be locked into what you see is what you get go for it but
as for my self

if i want a new hdd i will shop around for one and get what i want not what apple tells me i have to have.

and if i want to change configurations i have the freedom to do so i am not locked down to a newbie box and told what is best for me by the all mighty green apple lol

but everyone is free to use what ever os they want and if your not happy with Microsoft..

don’t use it it’s just that simple

Thanks for sharing your experience!

In reply to i looked at a lot of the headers on

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Thanks for sharing your experience! It is good to get some first-hand information about this!

Based on your description, it would appear that de-activation due to hardware changes is about the same in Vista as it is in XP.

The new thing in Vista is that de-activation can be triggered by software changes/actions also (install, remove, driver install, driver remove, malware, etc). And, you can get as few as 3 days to re-activate, not 30 days. This is not a bug. It is [u]by design[/u] and Microsoft admits it. Check your Vista EULA. It’s disclosed in there. I think this is stunningly stupid and arrogant of Microsoft and I won’t submit to it. Reactivation over the Internet won’t always work you know. Sometimes you’ll have to call Microsoft. You might even have to argue with them, provide proof of purchase, or ???

Since there are very viable alternatives these days (Linux, MacOS X), I see no good reason to run an operating system that capriciously de-activates itself by design like Vista does. It’s gonna happen when it is least convenient. I just KNOW it! 🙂

And, I am frankly sick of putting up with manipulation by Microsoft (I’ve been running Windows for 15 years now).

My project to switch to Linux full-time on my x86 PC is coming along very well. It’s very liberating to get out from under Microsoft’s thumb. No more planned obsolescence. No more having to buy a new PC very time in order to run the new OS version. No more expensive OS purchase for each PC I use. No more expensive commercial software for each PC I use. No activation. No unpredictable de-activation. No more being under assault by malware 24×7. Windows will still be around, but only as a secondary OS whenever it is needed.

To each his own…

Bravo to you…

In reply to i looked at a lot of the headers on

So many stand on their soapboxes declaring the end of the world as we know it, and you went through the exercise to determine what would happen it you did change things. And you came up with the same thing I did. It takes a lot for the “bomb” to blow up, and when it did it was 30 sec to fix. So much for global warming and the end of the Vista operating system.

I have watched this go on for damn near 700 posts and it is the same thing over and over and over again. TechExec2 cuts and pastes his replies to glory, others heap praise on him for his insightfullness based on ? rumors, innuendos, gossip?

His reply is that he will never ever use Vista, and hip, hip, hooray. So he will never get his hands dirty on the implementation and assistance to those who will be using it. Now get back in the bushes and let the real ground breakers get to work, and please let this frickin thing die. I have heard of beating a horse to death, but this is cruel to continue to beat your chest over all that is left is hamburger.

And if you wonder why I do not write more in these it is because I work for a living and am not paid to pound out endless responses to a well known fact that YOU WILL NEVER USE VISTA. WE GET IT!

Oh one with such low reading comprehension…

In reply to Bravo to you…

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The issue is SOFTWARE causing de-activation in Vista in an unpredictable manner. It’s not about hardware changes. If Vista WGA deactivated only due to hardware changes just like XP does, I could live with that.

You better get back to work. You’re clearly not bright enough to invent something that will pay your bills for you. :^0 :^0 :^0

Excuse me, but didn’t you say…..

In reply to Oh one with such low reading comprehension…

“As I posted here (1), last week I decided that I would NEVER upgrade to Vista as my primary operating system. I find it completely unacceptable to be subject to capricious deactivation with 3 days warning whenever Vista decides it does not like software or hardware I might install (yes, even SOFTWARE can trigger this nonsense…see (2)(3)(4)(5) )”.

You did write that hardware was a problem did you not and now you say you are more concerned about software causing a problem. Which programs are causing the problems right now? Yeah, I know about the game, and it is a shame that the game used another copy protection program that caused the problem in Vista. Which other games are allowed into the business environment?

As for your statement that I am not bright enough to invent something that will pay my bills for me, at least I can say I pay my bills and not diddle my life away at a keyboard for hours ad nauseum. By the way I own my home outright, paid off, and you?

I was just throwing…

In reply to Excuse me, but didn’t you say…..

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I was just throwing an insult at you in response to the one you threw at me. You don’t really expect me not to respond, do you? I would much prefer to exchange ideas than insults. All I have received from you here in this discussion, multiple times, is insults. Not very impressive. You could probably do a lot better if you chose to do so. Here’s a guess: Since you’re a VAR, you’re livelihood is threatened by people who speak badly of Microsoft. I understand. But, that doesn’t mean you are right or honoring the truth. You’re just being dishonest to protect your ass. I respect that about you, but don’t expect me to let you get away with it.

If you don’t respect online forums as a way for people to interact, maybe you shouldn’t be here at all. That is all that is going on here.

It doesn’t speak well of you to quote one thing I posted here and make out like it contradicts something else I said and therefore I am somehow wishy-washy and discredited. Read what I posted here, many times. This issue is very clearly SOFTWARE that can cause de-activation in Vista, with only 3 days warning, that has NEVER been part of XP. And, don’t think it is limited to games. It’s not. And, Microsoft admits it.

Actually I don’t quite understand your problem

In reply to Bravo to you…

The Issue here was never a Hardware deactivation but always related to Software deactivation and much more importantly M$ dictating to the end user how they use their computers.

Obviously you find this acceptable no matter what the problem may be and the constant need for Vista to Call Home to tell Mommy what is being done on it. Obviously you are not concerned about privacy or more importantly Company Information as currently we do not know what is being sent to M$ and what they will do with that information.

But in about 4 years time when M$ certifies Software for it’s OS and you are restricted in what you can actually install onto the Computer by M$ I think that you’ll be slightly more than a bit concerned when this happens and you can no longer use your favourite brand of whatever. OH Sorry didn’t you know that M$ is Certifying Software the same way that Digitally Signatures Hardware is allowed but after the first Major Service Pack which M$ is expecting to release in about 2 years you will no longer be able to use anything that you like just Digitally Signed Hardware and then with the next release of Vista in about 4 years the same will apply to software.

M$ is currently claiming that this is for [b]Security Reasons[/b] to keep the kernel secure but it has the added advantage of preventing software houses from providing Cross Platform Support just like what has happened with Digitally Singed Hardware they immediately drop any cross platform support to concentrate on delivering Windows only drivers.

Currently I’m supplying computers that go out of the office onto building sites which are remote to say the least and if Vista gets locked down while here and you can not reactivate over the Internet and have to rely on your cell phone to call a person at M$ just how many people do you think will be willing to spent the 20 minutes that is required to first dial M$ then enter 5 digits at a time the code that appears on the screen and then be told that they can not reactivate the product and [b]Press 1[/b] to speak to someone?

Currently I can not give away a copy of Vista and I have no desire to roll it out for quite some time yet into a production environment as I don’t like the idea of a [b]Big Pissed Off Earthmover[/b] coming and paying me a visit because his M$ Supplied OS and Software stops working in the middle of no where and costs him a lot of money.

You may feel differently about being approached by these people but then again I very much doubt that you’ve ever meet one or know how they work.

The above post isn’t worth the bandwidth used to transmit it as it only covers hardware replacements and I don’t have a problem with these but installing and changing software on a computer is a totally different thing in my books at least.

Col

Please read above to TechExec2…..

In reply to Actually I don’t quite understand your problem

When he did indeed state that hardware was a concern to him. Secondly, you forget that with hardware changes you have driver changes and the supporting apps that go with them. Last I looked I believe that that is a software issue with a component change.

As for your not wanting to implement Vista for any of your clients at this time I do not see a problem at all. I also tell some of my clients that I will not upgrade or sell them Vista on a new machine until I am sure that all bases are covered for their software that they use.

But to continually say that there is a conspiracy by Microsoft to take over the world or your system for that matter, well, that is where we depart and I sign off.

By the way Col, TechExec2, and et al, slinging insults may make you feel good by trying to demean the other person, but for the casual reader who is passing by reading your posts, I am sure that your maturity level will be in question.

Have a Great Day!

More dishonesty from you

In reply to Please read above to TechExec2…..

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You’re completely shameless, aren’t you?

[b][i]”…But to continually say that there is a conspiracy by Microsoft to take over the world or your system for that matter, well, that is where we depart and I sign off…”[/i][/b]

You just made that up. It’s called a “straw man argument” and it works like this: You create a fake issue, a “straw man”, argue against it, and defeat it! You win! Wonderful!

The “straw man argument” is a dishonest debate device that some people use when they really cannot argue and win against the real issue.

The real issue is that Microsoft has chosen to put a “bomb” in Vista. It can de-activate, completely unpredictably, at any time, in response to normal actions taken by users of the system. That is completely unacceptable. Microsoft, and you, have absolutely no defense against it.

You lose. Again.

Actually I was unaware of slinging any insults

In reply to Please read above to TechExec2…..

Toward you perhaps you would care to point them out to me?

As for the Demigod M$ sucking in the world you are totally correct they are evil nasty and downright dangerous. I looked at last months Net Traffic and what do I see a little over 2.5 meg of talk between Office & Windows to Mommy. Sorry but I keep track of what goes out as well as what comes in. Vista isn’t as yet allowed onto the LAN here and that traffic is just from 1 machine. I’m still unsure what M$ is being given but I’m not happy with that amount of traffic from just 1 machine. If I had all of the other XP Pro Boxes connected the traffic would just be that much greater and I still would be none the wiser as to what is being sent to M$ but I find this traffic being explained away as Update Requests to be unbelievable so what exactly is this machine sending to M$ they certainly are not telling anyone and I wonder why this is so. It’s only got XP and Office loaded and isn’t actually used for anything but monitoring purposes.

The various Nix Boxes that I have here are not calling home to talk to Mommy every 5 minutes but I’ve seen numerous examples of this happening with XP and Office. 1 Client had a $1,500.00 phone bill because he was allowing the computer which ran 24/7 direct access to the Dial Up Modem and when it failed with the required connection it was dialling up almost straight away again. This is Unacceptable to anyone and from my experience not even M$ claim that this is acceptable as I’m constantly told by the M$ Technical staff here to prevent this from happening and alter the base install of XP.

I walked away from OEM M$ Product a very long time ago and have been using Volume License Stuff ever since I was accused of Stealing from M$ because I was silly enough to add 6 SCSI HDD’s to an XP install and it needed reactivation now as the SCSI Controller was on the M’Board could you please explain to me exactly what new software was involved there?

Vista Volume License Needs Activation which I’m still of two minds about as I’ve seen the Action Packs abused but because I build Networks I don’t want to be in a position of constantly needing to Activate Windows Office and whatever else is loaded onto the computers and even worse when M$ decide to Black List a Product Key I’m not really interested in the need to change the Key on every machine that it’s loaded onto. Granted I’ve done my time in HELL with 2,500 machines needing Key changes for SP1, SP2 and then 2 weeks latter WGA. In the case of the WGA mess though it shut down every computer in the Government Agency and was telling the end users that there was pirate Software Installed meaning Windows XP when M$ had issued the Product key only 2 weeks previously.

Any Idea just how long it takes 11 Techs to do an In place Install and Key Change on 2,500 XP installs? It’s not a pretty sight and the business is adversely affected. But It’s not M$ responsibility even if they did Black List the Key almost as soon as they sent it out.

I could probably live with a 5 machine Key Change quite easily as at best it will only take a day to do by the time that you finally fight your way to the computer change the key and then wait till the next one is free in 30 seconds that turns into 2 hours because there is work that needs to be done.

Currently I have 1 client with just 5 computers everyone else has more and Key Changes are not something to be entered into lightly. [b]Sorry but XP was the straw that broke this Camels Back[/b] M$ can get stuffed as far as I’m concerned about the only good thing to come out of the Vista release was that I finally managed to drop that Government Department so there will be no more calls there ever again.

But what M$ is claiming that they want to achieve is unacceptable to me and my way of thinking and if they manage to pull it off will be a Giant Apple with no room to move or any other competition possible. M$ is already suffering from a total lack of competition and the results of this are showing by the time wasted in developing Vista and Office 12. They are still to produce a usable 64 Bit OS and Application except for Exchange 2007 and have become the big lumbering Bel month that IBM was all those years ago. This one single problem is what will eventually lead to the demise of M$ as a major player on the Desktop. They have already lost the Server Market because of their greed and with Asia going with Turbo Linux and Europe looking at everything but M$ I don’t see a rosy future for M$, but then again they don’t deserve one so they are finally beginning to Reap what they have been Sowing for so long. They are no longer a Software Development House but a Bureaucracy that is incapable of change.

They haven’t had a software engineer running the place for so long they have forgotten exactly what it is that they are supposed to be doing and if Vista kills them off to the mass market I’m not going to lose a single minutes sleep over their demise to the bit player that they should be.

Col

And just like a magpie

In reply to Bravo to you…

I see that you are tragically attracted to bright shiny objects and squawk a lot.

The discussion point was basic- that an OS can be capriciously deactivated regardless of the fact that you have paid a significant figure to legally use it is not tolerable. And it shouldn’t be.

And believe me, you are no more “ground breaking” by installing Vista than MS was “innovating” by creating it.

I personally don’t give a rip what you install or support. But I am interested in the things that are happening in my industry as they will affect what my choices are individually.

If you can’t add anything civil to the discussion, I suggest you stay out of it.

Edited because I was being unkind in my description of Vista and decided that was out of line.

Exremely well put

In reply to And just like a magpie

Well done Tiger2.
I couldn’t have said it better myself
Warmest Regards
Aaron

I would not blame you

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

its like the new fiat punto or renault laguna, lovely on the outside but absolute scrap under the bonet

Now it’s final. I will NEVER upgrade to Vista.

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

Thanks for the insight.
I recently told someone running XP that they don’t need VISTA.
I never felt better about giving advice.
That is a travesty of computing.
I think I will never upgrade either.
Arghhh….all the hype!

Why get your shorts in a knot??? S.S.D.D.

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

Based on past history of Microsoft OSs, adoption of Vista is going to be somewhat problematic. So what??? Nobody is demanding you make the switch right now and in fact anyone who does might be suspected of being somewhat challenged in the intelligence department. Saying you’ll never switch is equally as stupid.

Face it!!! We will eventually have to switch but nothing is forcing us to do so immediately. At least wait until the first service pack is issued or, better yet, the second. Even then you can still set up your machine as a dual or multi boot system. Nothing to prevent you from choosing to boot with XP, Vista or Linux, is there??? Unless, of course, you are intellectually challenged or pecuniary strangulation is preventing you from acquiring the necessary hardware to support this configuration.

[i]Oh yeah; S.S.D.D.? – Same Schit, Different Day.[/i]

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

Right, and wrong. You assume too much.

In reply to Why get your shorts in a knot??? S.S.D.D.

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[b][i]”…Face it!!! We will eventually have to switch but nothing is forcing us to do so immediately. At least wait until the first service pack is issued or, better yet, the second…”[/i][/b]

You’re right, and wrong.

Right: All of us running Windows XP will have to switch away from XP some day. Vista bugs and problems will be fixed in SP1 or SP2.

Wrong: All of us running Windows XP do not have to switch to Vista some day. There are alternatives. It is up to each of us to CHOOSE. Nobody has to submit to Microsoft’s nonsense. And, Vista’s capricious self de-activation, a “bomb” that is triggered by software events, is [u]by design[/u]. It is not a “bug” and it will never be “fixed” (unless Microsoft removes Vista’s new aggressive WGA altogether) (2)(3).

[b]This was not a silly-assed rant[/b]

This discussion was an expression of outrage. But, it’s no silly-assed rant. I am switching to Linux, the safe and sane operating system that never self de-activates (1). In fact, I’m typing this post from a Linux system. And, I’m liking Linux more with each passing day.

P.S. Nice rant. Nice insults. But, you assume too much. Your argument does not apply to me, or a lot of others who have posted here.

—————————-

(1) The [i]LEAVING WINDOWS[/i] Project
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=213495&messageID=2185615

(2) Newsflash: Microsoft [i]DEFEATS THE PIRATES[/i]
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=212977&messageID=2189458

(3) Microsoft [i]CHANGED THE PAGE I QUOTED[/i]
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=212977&messageID=2191613

edit: amplification, clarification

I seldom, if ever, assume anything and unlike you, I wasn’t making a rant.

In reply to Right, and wrong. You assume too much.

I was commenting that there is no point getting your water hot about Vista just as there was no point getting your water all hot about XP and prior to that 2K and prior to that 98.

However, I will now make an assumption, that based upon your hysterical little tirade, you are self employed in some tiny little shop and the CIO and CTO titles next to your alias are fictitious figments of your imagination. Either that, or you work somewhere that uses no more than 5 – 20 computers, of which 1 – 5 is linked to the internet and all your computer “work” consists of nothing more than emailing, word processing and invoicing, although judging by the level of intelligence displayed, I would suspect there isn’t too much of that.

Furthermore if you were working for me and made the sillyassed statements you’ve made, you might find yourself quickly replaced because I wouldn’t have any faith in either your intelligence or abilities.
[b][i]Now you can claim to be insulted.[/b][/i]

I’ve been using Linux for almost five years now and Unix since the seventies. I hate, despise and deplore Windoze but regardless of how I feel about it, it is the the largest installed OS in the world and it will be only a matter of time before this latest iteration of its nonsense will take hold and all the sheep will follow along.

As much as I would like to eliminate Windoze in any of its versions, I can’t afford to and hope to stay in business. Switch to Linux??? Most of my tech people already have or are using Unix and/or Linux but for the support and clerical staff, the learning curve woulld be too time and labour intensive not to mention far too costly.

I’ve got over 800 users in 4 different locations to worry about and about 350 – 380 of them are Windoze users exclusively.

Yeah I use Linux on a personal basis but on a corporate level, as long as Windoze is the OS of choice in the majority of the world I have to live with it. Hell I don’t even like GUIs and much prefer doing things from the command line because it’s faster but those days are over and I’ve had to adapt.
[b][i]And now I’ve had my rant.[/b][/i]

Unless you’re in my tax bracket, or one similar to it, my argument applies to you and a lot of others just like you and there isn’t a damn thing you can do about it. You have to remember the golden rule; [b][i]”He who has the gold makes the rules.”[/b][/i] Just in case you didn’t notice, it’s my company, lock , stock and barrel and I built it from scratch. It’s still expanding and while we are headquartered in Canada, 75 – 80% of our operations are in the US.

Whether you like Vista, or any other version of Windoze or not, is completely immaterial to me. You will do what you are told by your superiors who will decide what is of the greatest cost/benefit to the company and of the least expense. The important thing to my company and any successful company,is the bottom line and in your case, trimming deadwood in IS/IT might be advisable.

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

Well well well…We’re way beyond Vista problems now…

In reply to I seldom, if ever, assume anything and unlike you, I wasn’t making a rant.

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What an outstanding online bully you are! Nice hubris too. I might feel “special” except it’s no secret that you have a history of this kind of behavior.

You began with [i]”…Saying you’ll never switch is equally as stupid…”[/i] and went downhill ([i]fast![/i]) from there. Nice approach!

My interest here is discussing problems with Vista and problems with Microsoft. It’s clear your interest is to pick a fight and further inflate your already overinflated ego. I have no interest in helping you with that. The going rate for that kind of help is $200 per half-hour and requires a doctoral degree and a license that I don’t have.

You are FULL of assumptions here. Here’s another one: I don’t give one damn what you think. Take your pathetic little “game” somewhere else.

I have no interest in talking with you…about anything…ever.

——————————-

P.S. If you’re not seeing a shrink now, I strongly suggest you do. You need some help.

What have you been smoking, that you’re not sharing with anyone else???

In reply to Well well well…We’re way beyond Vista problems now…

I have no idea what you’re on but how you managed to take my first post as a rant and insulting, raises serious doubts about your levels of reading comprehension and in fact whether you have the ability to read at all. Makes me wonder what form of psychedelic substances you have chosen to abuse. However, leaving you and your assinine reply to me aside, your responses to Magpie and Hal show a similar lack of comprehension and/or an ability to comprehend what was written and /or said. Whatever you’re on, it must be fairly potent stuff, to be that far out of touch with reality.

Most anyone who has been [b][i][u]seriously[/b][/i][/u] involved with computers for any length of time has come to deplore MS’s growth into the somewhat monopalistic position it now holds. It is one of the reasons why [b][i][u]serious[/b][/i][/u] computer users have been using alternative OSs for years and try to employ as few non-MS or MS related products as possible but we do live in a real world, not a utopian ideal and if we have any hope of conducting business on a profitable basis, we have to make certain concessions to the inevitable encounters we will have to make with MS products and the great unwashed who have been sucked in by all the MS marketing hype. Acting like a flustered old maid who has just received an indecent proposition isn’t about to achieve anything of a concrete or helpful nature.

As for me seeing a shrink; why??? I’m not the one with the persecution complex who keeps tripping over his own dick; I believe that falls under your area of expertise.

BTW if you would like to read an evenly balanced and sensible comment, read the next one from Aaron Baker.

[b][i]I have no interest in talking with you…about anything…ever.[/i]

GOOD, TERRIFIC, FANTASTIC.[/b] It’s too bad I and a lot of the others don’t believe you and expect further assaults on our intelligence from the pretentiously, prejudiced, pompous, little peckerwood you have shown yourself to be. That is not just my opinion but a consensus of many. As I said in my previous post I don’t give a damn what you do or don’t do, as long as you stay the hell and gone out of my way and do it somewhere else. You are a waste of bandwidth.

Damn!!!!! I can’t believe I’ve just allowed myself to get sucked into a discussion with a stupid little cretin, who probably can’t walk and chew gum at the same time. I must be getting old; I’m starting to lose my touch. CIO and CTO, indeed. Of what??? The corner bar and grill??? Oooooh, aside from pretentiousness and lying, did I mention that he exhibits all the classic symptoms of OCD, manic depression and accute paranoia????

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

[i]P.S. BTW if I’ve managed to hurt your delicate little feelings, all I can say is, good!!! I’m glad!!! Sorry about that. [/i]

My Objection isn’t about Vista, per se.

In reply to Why get your shorts in a knot??? S.S.D.D.

It’s about Microsoft Autonomy.
Since when do they have the God Given right to de-active you on a whim?
Or for that matter, De-activate you at all?? Didn’t you pay for the product?
All this after you’ve PAID an exorbitant amount of money for what is probably a basic version of Vista that would have to be upgraded at YOUR cost.
Every time you wish to go to the next level it WILL cost you and Microsoft will ALWAYS be at the helm hiding behind the scenes, deciding whether or not to activate or De-Activate you. This is Very Wrong.
IF you buy the product it should be yours without the Microsoft Spyglass always being involved in your system without your permission or knowledge.Not to mention having access to your complete and private information.
This is MY main objection.
Microsoft is trying to have everybody become solely dependant on “Them” and then they may decide to allow you to proceed or turn you off. Little wonder people are turning elsewhere.
By the way, I’ve been using Microsoft since it’s inception and have never seen them as greedy and manipulative as they are now. What’s wrong with this picture???
A Lot I think.
Regards
Aaron

Linux Beginner Site

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I was browsing this morning and ran into this site. I am unsure if it was previously posted, but I do not remember it.

This site has need to know info and help for people trying to Leave Windows.

http://reallylinux.com/

That IS a good site!

In reply to Linux Beginner Site

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Thanks for posting this.

Check this, TechExec…

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

http://www.windowssecrets.com/comp/070315/#story1

It’s even funnier than we thought.

JBB

Wow! Thanks for posting that.

In reply to Check this, TechExec…

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I expected pirates to eventually find a good way around Vista’s WGA. I did not expect Microsoft to give it to them. This revelation makes Microsoft’s aggressive Vista WGA look even more stunningly stupid than it originally appeared.

Microsoft is self-destructing. :0

Thanks for posting that. People who must run Vista, or feel they must, will benefit greatly from this information.

P.S. This post: Made from a Linux system! :^0

See now I said the WGA would nail them !

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

Until the hammer comes down on M$ they will never listen . . And welcome to the group of us NEVER People . .
I advised a lot of people whom I made computers for NOT to install “Vista” for this very reason !
Plus I made computers that would have easily gone to “Vista” but with its WGA screwing up so much . . and the cost of a Crash would soon become a LOT OF MONEY . .
Spent over and over like P.O.T. ! ( Pi– On Them ! ) Linux is so much more cheaper and does so much more than most people think is can . .

my last version . . .

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

While I still occasionally have to use MS Windows for stuff like software and web testing, I don’t actually USE any Microsoft OSes these days for “real computing”. I started using XP for a while back when it was new(ish), but went back to Win2k, and eventually stopped using that just because I never needed to (except for software/web testing, of course).

As I had pretty much decided that I’d never use another MS Windows release after Win2k for day-to-day tasks, possible wrinkles in my career path notwithstanding, and now that Win2k is getting a little long in the tooth for real usefulness, I’m getting to the point where I won’t even use that for any normal computing tasks.

MS Windows is a test platform for me, and I don’t foresee it ever being any more than that, at all, now that even Win2k has ceased to be of any practical use. I felt a moment of melancholy when I realized that today — it is, for me, the end of an era.

On the other hand, in practical day-to-day terms, I’ll never miss it.

I can relate to that sentiment

In reply to my last version . . .

.
Any melancholy about saying good-bye to Windows is more than offset by the joy of running Linux. I’m really enjoying it! It’s exceeding my expectations.

TE2- Have you seen this lawsuit yet?

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

http://www.playfuls.com/news_06848_Microsoft_Sued_Over_Deceptive_Vista_Capable_Sticker.html

Below is a link to Mary Jo Foley’s blog, referred to in the first link.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=366

That was in one of the News Articles in

In reply to TE2- Have you seen this lawsuit yet?

The TR News Mails that they send out a few days ago. If you look there is even a Discussion that doesn’t seem to have gone anywhere here on TR about this subject.

I can’t find the Article right now but here is a copy of it

[i]Microsoft sued over Vista branding
Class action suit claims software giant deliberately misled consumers with its marketing of the new operating system.
By Colin Barker
Special to CNET News.com
Published: April 4, 2007, 10:15 AM PDT

Microsoft has come under attack for the way it advertises the Vista operating system.
A lawsuit, filed in Seattle, alleges that the company advertised systems as “Vista capable,” when in fact the systems were not able to run Vista properly. The suit alleges that the marketing around Vista was designed to deliberately mislead potential customers.
The outcome hangs on the precise definition of the circumstances under which a machine is “Vista capable.”
Microsoft has allowed PC vendors to put stickers on their systems saying that they are “Vista ready,” when the system could run only Vista Home Basic, which does not allow many of the core features of Vista to run. The suit maintains that it was unreasonable of Microsoft to assume that every person to whom it was marketing Vista could understand the system requirements.
PCs need at least 512MB of RAM, a processor capable of operating at 800MHz or faster and a graphics processor that is DirectX 9-capable to be classified as “Vista capable.” However, the suit alleges that it was not clear from Microsoft’s advertising and marketing around Vista that while a system may be advertised as “capable,” it may be incapable of running many of the advertised features of Vista, such as the Aero desktop.
Now on News.com:
N.Y. auto show gets into gear
Zune hears the call of DRM-free music
High-stakes efforts in clean tech
Extra: Inside the iRobot lab
Video: Hacking a Vista PC
According to the legal action, which was filed as a class action suit on Thursday, “consumers were falsely led to believe they would be upgraded to a dramatically new operating system bearing the key features marketed by Microsoft.” In particular, the court action highlights Microsoft’s “Express Upgrade” plan, which upgraded users from Windows XP to Vista Basic. This was an upgrade to Vista “in name only,” the suit alleged, and “not the functionality.”
Microsoft said it had made extensive efforts to inform buyers about the hardware resources needed to run Vista.
“We conducted a broad effort to educate computer manufacturers, retailers and consumers about the hardware requirements to run different versions of Windows Vista,” the company said in a statement. “This well-documented effort occurred as part of the Windows Vista Capable program. We look forward to presenting this information to the court and addressing all other issues raised in this lawsuit.”
Details of the lawsuit were reported Tuesday by The Seattle Post-Intelligencer.[/i]

Col

I have just read about it 2 or 3 e-mails ago

In reply to That was in one of the News Articles in

I got the story in a e-mail maybe a day ago and only glanced at it But its about time some one got on M$ about their BS they have been putting out and expecting people to put up with . . Like K.M.A. and we will give you a patch !

I wasn’t aware of that particular lawsuit

In reply to TE2- Have you seen this lawsuit yet?

.
Thanks for this. There are a lot of people upset about Vista.

I wasn’t aware of that particular lawsuit. But, I’ve read about some Vista suits somewhere before. As much as I always enjoy seeing Microsoft lose lawsuits, I don’t really think they are guilting of being intentionally deceptive. I just think they are stupid.

** It’s the same kind of stupidity that dragged out Longhorn/Vista development for 5 years, had them ripping out lots of major and minor features they previously announced, and in the end delivered a product that even Microsoft stalwarts complain about.

** It’s the same kind of stupidity that produced the Vista WGA software-triggered de-activation idiocy.

** And, the same kind of stupidity that allowed the ANI vulnerability to go unpatched for over three months, and to patch it only after exploits appeared in the wild (1).

Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

Those guys in Redmond are effin’ stupid.

————————-

(1) Or, MS could be crazy like a fox. What better way to promote IE7 and Vista Protected mode, and Vista, than to allow an exploit to attack Firefox. Too bad it ended up attacking MS products also, huh? It’s a little far-feteched, but they’ve done things like this before (remember the DR-DOS and Windows 3.0 planned failure?). It’s not like most customers will, or even can, leave Windows easily. MS is stupid and/or crazy and/or crazy like a fox. Regardless, I don’t trust those bastards and I’m sick of putting up with them.

Lawsuits won’t hurt them. If you want to help yourself, and hurt Microsoft as a bonus, stop buying their stuff.

You might like this report

In reply to I wasn’t aware of that particular lawsuit

That has just come through from the Windows Infopackets Newsletter to all M$ Subscribers and while it was buried down at the very bottom it’s still there. 😀

http://tinyurl.com/2mqflu

M$ Slant on this case.

They even add the entire Court Documents in there as well in a PDF file available here and Name Billy Boy for deceptive practises in claiming that you can install Vista onto a computer for under $100.00

http://tinyurl.com/3xfkyd

Col

Thanks for this

In reply to You might like this report

.
If people who bought “Vista-capable” computers last year feel they were mislead by Microsoft, I suppose they SHOULD seek redress. After all, since most of the other important features were removed from Longhorn/Vista before release, not being able to run Aero Glass could easily be the “last straw” for many people. What?! No eye-candy?! :^0 :^0 :^0

I don’t buy

In reply to I wasn’t aware of that particular lawsuit

I’ve never bought anything from MS. I just make offsite backup copies of disks for work that have mass install capabilities or whatever you call them, making them valid and WGA compatible and I can install at home for testing things. (sometimes games, but…) I figure MS owes me that much for allowing them to make money off of the MS skill set I’ve developed over the years since I was an IBM programmer, via my employers. I may be an evil, wrong person for that mentality, but I’ve never been right in the first place. And don’t really wanna.

So as long as I can have a job doing MS stuff since I spent time learning it to have a job in the first place and can get their stuff from work I’ll probably keep using it. But I’ve always said the minute I ever have to buy MS crap I’m not going to do it.

Should I feel guilty?

Only since you asked…

In reply to I don’t buy

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In my view, what you’re doing is ethically wrong. I don’t like Microsoft, but I don’t steal from them. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

That said, your choosing to steal from Microsoft has no direct affect on me. So, how you feel about what you choose to do is your business, not mine.

re

In reply to Only since you asked…

Hey that’s cool, I asked for an opinion.

The point I was trying to make though was that I’m making MS a lot more money by having and knowing how to do thier stuff then they’d have made by me buying an OS, which I would not have done anyway. I make them money and they don’t pay me anything. They also pay their employees way more than I make while I’m making them a quite a bit of money. …that’s the basic idea. I know you can always dispute what I’ve said, but define ethics. I’m pretty sure I have a valid point. And as long as I’m not shrink wrapping it and selling it to someone else they aren’t hurt by it.

another opinion

In reply to Only since you asked…

In my view, there’s nothing ethically wrong with that behavior. In my view, copyright law — basically, using government to force you to behave in a given manner with something you possess by putting a gun to your head — is what’s ethically wrong. Once Microsoft “sells” something, it should have zero say over how it’s used by someone else. That’s all there is to it.

Now, an explicit contractual agreement would change things. If Microsoft reps came to you with a contract and demanded that you sign it, allowing you to read it first of course, before they’d turn over a Microsoft Windows installation CD to you, you’d be ethically obligated to abide by the terms of the contract (as well as legally at risk if you didn’t). Copyright law and end user license “agreements”, however, do not do this at all — they ensure that when something finds its way into your possession, perhaps without your consent or immediate knowledge, you are then [b]retroactively[/b] forced by law to comply with terms of use to which you [b]never agreed[/b]. That’s not proprietary rights — it’s an end-run around anti-slavery laws.

By the way, TechExec2, even the law doesn’t define violation of copyright law as “theft”. Copyright infringement (the technical term) is not theft, because one does not deprive another person of possessions by infringing copyright. All one does is dilute a (nominally) limited monopoly power to control the disposition, duplication, and distribution of materials that fit a specific legally provable form. That’s a huge step away from stealing. In fact, when you describe it accurately, it doesn’t sound like a crime at all — does it?

And if the company concerned has Software Assurance

In reply to another opinion

It’s not even a breach of Copyright as M$ expects and sells SA with this in mind to have your staff use the same thing at home as they use on their workstations.

Col

:-)

In reply to And if the company concerned has Software Assurance

That’s basically what I figured.

I thought I might hear from you on this :-)

In reply to another opinion

.
I have come to appreciate your point of view on the ethics of this as well. And, I admit my use of ‘steal’ was technically inaccurate (just being a little lazy).

Even a copyleft-based license like the GPL depends on copyright law for enforcement in the courts, and the software uses the same “click wrap” method of license consummation.

a note or two about the GPL

In reply to I thought I might hear from you on this :-)

1. I think the GPL is almost as bad as copyright law and proprietary software EULAs. It’s just another EULA, in fact.

2. It’s not the copyleft characteristics of it that make the GPL dependent on copyright law — it’s the fact that it imposes restrictions on how and when you are allowed to distribute GPLed software. All copyleft would do with a simple anti-copyright type license is make sure that copyright can’t “reclaim” something.

3. The only time something like an end user license agreement is unethical as a binding “agreement” is when it actually obligates or restricts the recipient in some way. Both the GPL and Microsoft EULAs do this. Something like the BSD license or [url=http://ccd.apotheon.org]CCD CopyWrite[/url] do nothing more than create an explicitly “protected” license akin to the terms of the public domain. These are ethical licenses (or, at least, about the best you’re going to get under current legal circumstances).

On a scale of one to ten, the amount of evil inherent in a given license is pretty much as follows:

CCD CopyWrite: 1
BSD License: 1.5
GPL: 7.5
MS EULA: 11

. . . so the GPL isn’t a very effective counter to my arguments. Yes, it’s dependent upon copyright law, and it blows chunks — but that doesn’t win you any points because it is in no way a good representation of an ethical treatment of the product of the intellect. As such, it’s irrelevant to my argument.

apotheon: I’ll defer to you…

In reply to I thought I might hear from you on this :-)

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I’ll defer to you on ethical theory as that is one of your key interests. It’s not something I have invested time in. Maybe someday.

Perhaps you would prefer that I not use the term “ethically wrong” regarding what he is doing and instead just use “illegal” (and it may not even be that). That’s fine with me. On the other hand, it wasn’t a philosophical ethic I was speaking of. It was just the simple ethic of obeying the law. That’s all.

I wasn’t really trying to counter your views about the ethics of existing copyright law. My comment about the GPL was only noting that it too is contrary to your views.

TechExec2 . . .

In reply to I thought I might hear from you on this :-)

Hopefully I didn’t come off too harshly in my previous post. I do respect your knowledge and opinion as I’ve seen it here at TR — as far as I can tell, you’re one of the “good’uns” here at TR, and I thought so before you got fed up with Microsoft as well. I certainly don’t mean to cause you to cease sharing your opinions. If I was too harsh in my phrasing, it’s probably just because the problems of copyright and patent law — particularly as they intersect with ethicality — are subjects of great importance to me, and I want to make sure that my thoughts on the matter are known when contrary (mainstream) opinions are voiced.

There’s even a touch of disappointment at yet another MS Windows user with more than two brain cells to rub together switching to open source OSes, if only because it makes it more difficult for me to point out an example of someone I like who doesn’t use a free unix OS when someone like rickk, George Ou, Steve Warren, or mindilator claims that I only respect people who agree with me.

In retrospect, I see that it appears your focus in mentioning the GPL was on the EULA-style enforcement of the GPL, and not necessarily on the “free software” claims associated with the GPL. I apologize for misunderstanding your intent, as you seem to be indicating that I did. My fault — I normally don’t make such hasty assumptions about someone’s meaning as I did this time. I should have been more reasonably sure of my interpretation, or at least stated my operating assumption clearly, before proceeding as I did.

apotheon: No harm done

In reply to I thought I might hear from you on this :-)

.
No harm done.

It must be a difficult position for you to be in. You work in the computer and software industry. Yet, the legal foundation of the industry is based on copyright and patent law (1), something you find unethical. However you choose to work this out for yourself is completely fine. We all have to make our own way in a world we did not create.

Quite honestly, until I conversed with some people on TR about this and read some of your writings, I had really never questioned the ethics of copyright and patent law. It’s the law of the land and is pervasive. I’ve mostly just tried to understand it well and work well within this structure defined by the government. I think most people are in the same boat with me on that (or worse…many do not even understand how copyright, patent, or even trademark law work). I’m sure you realize this, know that you have run ahead of the pack so to speak, and need to help us catch up with you.

At least I’m heading in the right direction. On your 1 to 10 “scale of evil”, I’ve successfully jumped from a level 11 OS to a level 7.5 OS! :^0

——————————–

(1) I do have a major problem with the way patents are being used with software. There needs to be major reform there.

difficult conditions, and the “scale of evil”

In reply to I thought I might hear from you on this :-)

Obviously, my “scale of evil” was ad-hoc and meant to be taken with a grain of salt. It certainly wasn’t created through any kind of systematic application of objective metrics. It’s heuristic in the extreme, based on the “feel” I get from each of the different approaches to dealing with the proceeds of intellectual endeavor. Taking it as a working system, just for argument’s sake, however:

I wouldn’t say you’re on a 7.5 OS. While it’s true the kernel is GPLed, and much of the core utilities are GPLed as well — accounting for more than 50% of the “evil quotient” of the OS as a whole, I’d say — there are a great many other licenses involved. For instance, the LGPL is similarly pervasive, and there are parts of a complete, highly functional Linux distribution in default configuration that are licensed BSD, MIT, and Apache. Some GPLed software is also dual-licensed, such as Perl’s status — dual-licensed GPL and Perl Artistic License (the latter being probably about 3.5 on the scale) — and in such cases I’d say that the “evil quotient” of that software would be that of the least evil license used. In general, Linux distributions probably end up settling in somewhere around the level of about 3.5 most of the time.

FreeBSD, meanwhile, uses the BSD license for its kernel and the majority of core utilities, but there is also a lot of otherwise-licensed software involved in a standard configuration of FreeBSD. For instance, it comes with GCC by default, which is distributed under the terms of the GPL, thus raising the “evil quotient” of FreeBSD. All told, I’d probably place FreeBSD at somewhere around 2.0 or 2.5 (give me time to figure this one out in more detail). OpenBSD is more rigorous about the “freeness” of its included software, which is better than FreeBSD in this regard, but considers the GPL to be acceptably free, and the format of the installer is under enforced copyright — thus undoing any good to the more rigorous “freeness”, making it probably no better or worse than FreeBSD on its evil quotient.

Now that I’ve gotten through all that nonsense of “evil quotients” and an “evil scale”, which is silly but fun and vaguely useful in getting across how I feel about various licenses:

It’s not just the IT industry that provides such a minefield of ethicality for me. I think more, and more deeply, about ethical issues than almost much anyone I’ve ever met. As a result, I have a very finely honed sense of ethicality within my own understanding of ethics — which leads to the kinds of issues I have with licensing in the software industry being ubiquitous, distributed through all facets of life. Books, movies, and music all have a connection with copyright law, for instance. Military service and law enforcement provide ample conflict of principles because of the problems of unrighteous wars and unethical laws, respectively. Even formalized higher education (universities and the like) rubs several ethical concerns entirely the wrong way. I struggle with the problem of paying my taxes — in many ways, I find paying taxes to be a concession to unethicality, but must in practice do so to survive as a part of society.

I cannot escape the issues I have with IT work without doing grunt work instead. I cannot avoid the issues of grunt work (for instance, retail sales involves taxation, while service industry stuff — like basically all professional career paths — does not) without doing something with many of the same issues as the IT industry. Ultimately, I try to do the least harm I can reasonably get away with doing while trying to contribute to reforming things as much as reasonably possible.

still…

In reply to Only since you asked…

I like both of your opinions, not saying I agree or disagree. But I’d really like a comment directed at some of my particualar statments.

The legal and ethical argument is really for those who just buy and use the products. I know that it technically implies everybody. But using the products and in turn developing skills that result in making money for people like MS is really a different story, especially when they normally have to PAY employees. I know it’s a stretch, but making me pay hundreds of dollars for a full version of Vista is indentured service. And actually MS does ALLOW the sort of thing I’ve said I’m doing, with it’s products.

Please see…

In reply to still…

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=212977&messageID=2207968

not really a direct answer

In reply to Please see…

You told me what you thought was right in the abstract sense. That’s assuming the people who created the EULA were playing fair in the first place and they are not. It’s still endentured service for those of us trying to make a living using thier stuff. Again, why should I have to pay $600.00 so I can continue to support thier products??

And you still haven’t commented on the fact that what I’m talking about is Ok with them in certain contexts.

I mean if you want to get pissy that’s fine I guess, but I was trying to have a friendly debate. You are making it kind of contentious. It’s becoming similar in kind to a religious argument.

It’s like if I asked you if you thought it was possible to walk on water in some way and you answer that your god says it is unholy to get wet. I mean are you saying that I’m going to go to jail for doing this? Cause I’m not.

bhairball: I’ve answered your question as best I can

In reply to Please see…

.
I’ve answered your question as best I can. It’s not about religion and I’m not intending to be “pissy”. I cannot speak positively about what you’re doing because I don’t agree with it. Sorry.

As I see it, the key principles are:

– I believe in obeying the law.

– [u]Copyright law[/u] allows a company (MS) to establish restrictions on copying and use of their intellectual property. You may be violating the copyright restrictions defined in the MS EULA, or not. I don’t know (but it appears you are). That’s between you, your employer (he is directly involved in your activities and is responsible for them), and MS.

– [u]Contract law[/u] allows a company (MS) to create legally binding agreements with others. When you click “I agree” on the EULA before installing the software, you are entering a legally binding contract.

Based on your description of what you’re doing, I think you’re in violation of the MS EULA.

[b][i]”…Again, why should I have to pay $600.00 so I can continue to support thier products??…”[/i][/b]

In my view, if the EULA you agreed to (when you clicked “I agree”) says you must, then you must. This is not about fair and unfair in my view. It’s about legal and illegal.

[b][i]”…And you still haven’t commented on the fact that what I’m talking about is Ok with them in certain contexts…”[/i][/b]

I don’t know what more to say here. This is between you, and your employer, and Microsoft. If what you’re doing is legal, all is good. If not, maybe you should reconsider. Further, if Microsoft allows something “similar” to what you are doing, but not “actually” what you’re doing, I would say that you are violating the EULA. Just my opinion.

[b][i]”…I mean are you saying that I’m going to go to jail for doing this? Cause I’m not…”[/i][/b]

No jail time. But, in America, you and your company could be raided by law enforcement authorities based on an anonymous tip. Any disgruntled former employee can provide that. They will examine every single computer. Any copyright violations they find will result in restitution and fines. If you choose to fight it in court, you might also end up paying all of the plaintiff’s (MS or BSA) legal fees. Here’s an example (1). Laws in America work this way. It may be different in Norway.

[b]In closing[/b]

In closing, I’m not trying to be contentious. I’m just saying what I think. You might feel safer regarding this in Norway than I do in America based on what you have observed happen around you. Perhaps you have never known anyone who has been dragged into court over this. Perhaps you know that Norwegian authorities look the other way. Perhaps copyright laws are different in Norway. Whatever. But, I can tell you with completely certainty that it is a foolish risk to violate software copyright in America.

All the best to you.

BTW: I know a bunch of Norwegians and like Norway. The Lillehammer Olympics were pure magic.

————————————-

(1) Example of a U.S. company that got caught unintentionally violating copyright law
http://news.com.com/2008-1082_3-5065859.html

bhairball

In reply to Please see…

I thought TechExec2 was being perfectly reasonable — and I don’t even completely agree with him. I think perhaps you’ve “got your back up”, so to speak, and are verging on taking offense where none was intended.

As TechExec2 points out, by willfully and with disregard for the consequences violating a Microsoft EULA (assuming it’s a violation), you are exposing more than just yourself to the potential for litigation. The company whose licenses you are violating (again, assuming it’s a violation) is now subject to increased exposure to legal action, which can do incredible damage to the company. Even an audit that completely exonerates a company can cost that company significantly both in resources during the audit and in lost productivity.

Regardless of the ethicality of the action, in and of itself, of violating Microsoft EULAs (I don’t believe it’s unethical — TechExec2 evidently does, if only because it’s a violation of law), exposing your employer to litigation due to license violation is unethical (barring extreme circumstances that probably don’t need addressing here) as an IT professional. If you’re going to violate Microsoft EULA terms, please do so on your own time and in such a manner that the only people put at risk are those who are similarly engaged in the willful act of infringing copyright.

. . . or, better yet, use an operating system other than MS Windows. If you believe (as I do) that Microsoft’s entire business model is predicated upon unethical decisions and practices, you should not be supporting it even while you violate its “rules”. As you rightly point out, chances are good that by using MS Windows illegally (assuming you would not have done so legally if illegal use wasn’t possible) your actions are in fact resulting in a net benefit to Microsoft’s bottom line. That should not be a justification of your action: it should be a reason to stop what you’re doing and make a choice between on one hand supporting Microsoft legally and in the manner of Microsoft’s choosing, and on the other hand ceasing to support Microsoft in such a manner altogether, using some other operating system instead.

Your behavior appears to be unethical, or at least amoral, even from your own point of view. Perhaps you should reconsider that behavior.

Hey, that’s cool…

In reply to Please see…

Thanks for all that, it’s what I was looking for. Sorry if I appeared to take offense, I didn?t mean to and I don?t consider anything that was said as something to take offense to. I was just trying to illicit the kind of responses I was looking for, not agreement with what I?m saying either. You learn nothing if everybody agrees with you all the time. (?something I need to keep an eye on myself.) I just felt the blanket statement previously that I need to follow the EULA didn’t really say much to me, other than you should always follow the rules, a concept that I am aware of.

I guess you are right about MS and their business practices. But to me that?s an excuse to ignore any promises I would supposedly make to them, flatly a good enough reason. Again, define ethical. Also, I doubt they will raid my house and believe me; my company isn’t at much risk. It is at risk for things that are far worse than a MS attack anyway. But I understand where your opinion is coming from sort of.

Why have EULAs and software licenses become such the holy grail of our society today? It’s all a bunch of marketing and sales hogwash. They are simply taking advantage of the legal system to send their profits through the roof. The little guy trying to sell shareware still gets stomped into the ground. They don?t have an SUV load of lawyers and soccer moms that can attack whenever they are called upon. And btw/I feel you should always pay shareware licenses or donate in whatever way there is to support people like that. I know what you are going to say though, that it?s no different for bigger companies, but I think it is. I?ve worked for them and know where they are coming from. Not that they are evil, just jerk offs.

Here?s the rub for me, I want to continue working with MS stuff because that?s where the jobs are. They own the market and dominate how businesses do their computing. This mom and pop guy is all well and good, but I can?t find a job making squat if I START learning Linux. Not many people like him hire software developers and maintainers. Also if I go that way I have to start over on a big learning curve and get an entry level job some place. I?ve done that too many times now. I actually started with MS in the DOS days and then had to convert my skills to the IBM mainframe to find work, starting from the entry level there. Gotta love JCL! Then I had to do it all again when Y2K happened and learn the new MS stuff, which is like Swedish compared to the old MS stuff. Again Linux (UNIX) is all well and good (?except that it?s like working on a mainframe, no JCL but?), but the few good jobs out there are for the gurus. I?m no MS guru either, but there are more jobs for people below guru status with MS technology. Once you have a level of knowledge in a particular technology, learning more is quicker and less dismally painful then jumping into a new arena. I know because I?ve done it a lot. I don?t want to change. Change should be feared. But maybe it?s just me and I should get a job at Starbucks or something. That aside it leads to the dilemma I have that in order to get up to speed on a particular new MS technology I have to shell out hundreds of Krone for it. No way will I ever do that. Because you don?t get to do it once, you have to keep doing it over and over and over. There is a new OS every few years a new visual DOT whatever that is completely different, etc., all too expensive. Employers no longer pay for training on this stuff like they did in IBM-land. They expect you train yourself. I know you have no pity for me because I?m unethical, but there?s no real light at the end of that tunnel. I may have to resort to stealing from the vegetable stands in my area for food if I don?t undermine a few EULAs.

Well the Volume License Copies of Vista

In reply to I don’t buy

And Office 2007 now need activating and the free ride is over. 😀

While I’m personally in two minds about this as I’ve seen companies buy 1 Action Pack and then proceed to install it on everything that they sell so it’s impossible to compete with their prices as they don’t charge the correct amount for any software.

However saying that the Last Action Pack that I purchased was full of Pirate M$ Product according to M$ and it’s stupid WGA so I just suggested to the M$ tech Support Line that they where in total Control of the Market as they sold the Real Stuff and the Pirate Stuff as well so they could control everything that was sold and in what numbers it gets sold at.

Col

OK. More direct then…

In reply to I don’t buy

.
[b][i]”…I just make offsite backup copies of disks for work that have mass install capabilities or whatever you call them, making them valid and WGA compatible and I can install at home for testing things. (sometimes games, but…) I figure MS owes me that much for allowing them to make money off of the MS skill set I’ve developed over the years since I was an IBM programmer, via my employers…”[/i][/b]

This is a rationalization. It appears that what you’re doing is a violation of the EULA. So long as copyright law is the law of the land, I intend to honor it.

So do I, generally speaking.

In reply to OK. More direct then…

“[i]So long as copyright law is the law of the land, I intend to honor it.[/i]”
I intend to do the same, to the best of my ability (within reason), so long as ethical pressures do not prompt me to do otherwise. It’s just not smart to willfully violate copyright law with blatant disregard for the current legal circumstances, to say nothing of the fact that even using the software illegally for free provides support for perpetuating an unethical business model because it helps increase the popularity of the software. It also puts me, and anyone who depends on me, at legal risk — so yeah, I don’t tend to do that.

Instead, I try to support software with about as ethical a licensing scheme as I can manage to find and use to keep myself in Pepsi and Cheetos (or, these days, rooibos tea and buffalo burgers). The fact that it’s not ethical to impose limits on my use of software in my possession via so-called “agreements” and authoritarian copyright law in no way changes the fact that it’s smarter to use something else than to wantonly violate copyright law.

Nobody would take me seriously when I rail against copyright law if I was infringing Microsoft copyright by illegally using MS Windows, anyway. Few enough people take me seriously even when I demonstrate my principles by avoiding the software — there’s no reason to undermine my position and alienate the few who are left listening to what I have to say. Plus, y’know, MS software is technically sub-par anyway.

I have long ago said P.O.I. !

In reply to So do I, generally speaking.

I made an OLD computer used OLD CD burners and
OLD software to be able to copy CD’s with some of the old Software did not know it was not supposed to copy stuff
Its how I make copies of my Win 2 K CD’s when it gets kinda worn and scratched up As the ones I drag around for fixing stuff is in and out of computers so it is always getting nicked or scratched some where !
Even When I put it in and take it out by putting my little finger in the hole in the center . .

XP has the same behavior

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

XP has the same behavior as you mentioned in vista- only with the later WGA updates, so unless you plan to not update your XP system, then You can stay with XP. If not- then you should cry to Microsoft about the whole thing because it’s been around for a while in both operating systems.

Sorry wrong answer

In reply to XP has the same behavior

Vista at the first Service Pack that is if M$ can keep to schedule and it would make it a first will be released in about 2 years time and then you are locked into only using Digitally Signed hardware on your Vista System. If you have any hardware not digitally signed Vista is going to shut down and not restart till it’s removed which may prove a bit difficult if it’s something built onto the M’Board.

Then at the next release of Vista which again if M$ can stick to their self announces schedule will also Incorporate Digital Signing of Software so if you have some software not Digitally Signed it’s unable to be installed on Windows whatever it ends up being called either something like Vista R2 or if the marketing department finds that there is bulk resistance to the Vista name they’ll come up with something different probably XP R2 just to trade on a product that while not great works sort of unlike Vista does at this point in time. This isn’t to force the M$ Monopoly but to add security to the Windows Platform as any Digitally Signed Software will be incapable of doing any damage to the Windows Kernel and it will be much more secure. Actually I thought that was the current only valid reason to move to Vista now. 😀

I’ve yet to see XP’s WGA come up with anything like this but it’s slated for Vista and is quite well known by every M$ Partner who bothers to attend the meetings and the M$ staff are boasting about this. Also Vista is the basis of all the M$ Windows Products for the next 10 years again if M$ can keep to their self imposed schedule so that will probably get stretched out to 15 or more years depending on just how far behind they run and if they are stupid enough to try to resurrect that Bloody Silly WFS again after all it was promised with NT something or other and is still as yet to eventuate.

Who knows at the end of the development cycle that has been announced for Vista it just might look like it was supposed to when Longhorn was announced but still without the WFS. :^0

Col

Hal, Apotheon et/all check this out, Aaron

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I just got this from some idiot named “deich”.
Here is a copy of his “Note”
One of your fellow TechRepublic members has sent you a private message:

From: deich
Subject: micro screw nux convo
Message:
i just cant believe the three of you rick arron and hal 9000 could be so
childish in you comments to each other it is a disgrace to the it community

i have seen better conduct in hardware forums and pirate coves than i witnessed
here.

*******************************************

In Answer I would ask, this:
Have you actually read the posts?
Do you even know of what you speak?.
There are over 700 + posts in this thread and nowhere do I see Your name or have ever seen any participatiion on your part.
By what right of Divinity then, do you dare presume to pass judgement on Us???
I suggest you get with the program kid, actually read the posts,[ALL OF THEM] and then perhaps you might be in a better position to reach a conclusion regarding our personal characters.
Until then don’t bother me again, I will not acknowledge you childish remarks.
As for your slurs, rest assured they are most unwelcome and will be disregarded.
The people of which you speak are fine people and the fact that there may be disagreements is precisely what makes TR and it’s People what is.
The Bests in the Business
PS.
If you use the SHIFT while typing a letter, you’ll note it come’s up as a cap.I would also suggest the use of a spellchecker.
First learn how to read,write and then READ the entire post ‘THEN and ONLY THEN” might you have a valid opinion.
Of which I will still have no interest.
Aaron

Must be this guy…

In reply to Hal, Apotheon et/all check this out, Aaron

.
Just an “e-mail troll” I guess. He must be this guy:

deich
http://techrepublic.com.com/5213-6257-0.html?id=4723207&redirectTo=%2f1320-22-20.html

OH this is what that was about

In reply to Hal, Apotheon et/all check this out, Aaron

I just replied to the person that if they would like to bother to inform me what it was they where actually talking about I would have a look see but I had absolutely no idea of what they where on about nor did I care.

They are perfectly entitled to be indignant if they so chose to be but it honestly doesn’t affect me or any of the others mentioned one little bit.

Obviously we are all supposed to be [b]Mindless Zombies[/b] agreeing with each other no matter what, well unfortunately my attitude is [b]Tough deal with it and get a Life.[/b] 😀

UPDATE: Normal use of USB devices can trigger Vista WGA de-activation

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

.
It has just come to my attention that normal use of USB devices can trigger Vista WGA de-activation as reported by this TR peer (1).

This new information reaffirms my decision to never upgrade to Vista, and to eventually leave Windows entirely. This proves just how effin’ stupid those people in Redmond are. But, I am not surprised by this development at all.

——————————————-

(1) Vista…A mess
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=218687&messageID=2215641

ouch

In reply to UPDATE: Normal use of USB devices can trigger Vista WGA de-activation

/me is glad to be using FreeBSD.

at least until MS gets tired of companies

In reply to ouch

and starts going after the linux users

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=219512

re: Linux users

In reply to at least until MS gets tired of companies

You’re aware FreeBSD isn’t Linux — right?

Of course it isn’t

In reply to re: Linux users

BSD is BSD. Linux is Linux. Similar in many respects. Not same.

If I understand it all completely- and I may not- the major differentiation is in the EULA- specifically what one may do with the source and what restrictions pertain. Linux is bound to the GNU while BSD is not.

Another differentiating point is origination of the base. BSD is about my age. Linux is not.

Regardless, while I don’t think that MS will successfully kill Linux- although I think they will try- I don’t think there is a darned thing they can do to BSD.

Irrespective of the next play, if MS thinks that they can take Linux to court they may be mistaken. I do believe that they have maximally pissed off a sufficient user base to cause concern.

Just my opinion.

from the first BSD

In reply to Of course it isn’t

The first BSD Unix was distributed in ’77, I think.

386BSD was released in 1992 — an x86 platform BSD Unix created and released under the BSD license. It didn’t last long, but it spawned FreeBSD and NetBSD. NetBSD later spawned OpenBSD, then NetBSD started withering.

Now, three derivatives of FreeBSD seem to be gaining real traction — Dragonfly BSD, PC-BSD, and DesktopBSD. Dragonfly BSD was actually forked from FreeBSD because some believed that the way threading was being handled in the FreeBSD kernel would not perform well. The Dragonfly BSD codebase has continued to diverge from there somewhat, though Dragonfly BSD and FreeBSD share code back and forth liberally. PC-BSD and DesktopBSD are not forks, however: they’re just repackaged versions of FreeBSD, designed with end-user accessibility with a friendly KDE GUI as their major goal.

All of these *BSDs use the BSD license. You’re right about them differing from Linux in licensing — the Linux kernel, as well as the main toolset for most Linux distributions, is licensed under the terms of the GPL. That, in fact, is one of the reasons I started looking into FreeBSD in the first place.

If Microsoft tries to sue the *BSDs or Linux and actually wins, I suspect they’ll just go “underground”. I don’t think Microsoft wants to take the chance it’d lose such a lawsuit, however. It’s more likely to go after major corporate users, and maybe individual users as well, following in the footsteps of the RIAA. That’d be a much more lucrative, and much less dangerous, approach. You’re not going to get the whole Linux community, for instance, rallying around Joe Random if he gets sued and contributing millions of dollars to his defense fund, so chances are good Microsoft could really jam him up pretty badly. Microsoft would just need to figure out a way to justify a lawsuit for an individual user that amounts to more than a hill of beans — unlike the RIAA lawsuits, there’s no “for each song you owe this much money” sort of half-baked arithmetic to add up to hundreds of thousands of dollars. There’s just one operating system, which may or may not infringe a bunch of patents.

Actually, now that I think about it, instead of end-users Microsoft would probably target small businesses. It would be dead easy to sink a little half-dozen employee business based on the use of a few Linux machines. The EFF might have something to say about that, though, and then Microsoft would have a fight on its hands that it might not win.

We really just need to get rid of software patents. Seriously.

Absolutely

In reply to re: Linux users

But I’m not so sure that M$ is capable of seeing the difference. 😀

Col

Actually I did NOT know this

In reply to re: Linux users

hmmm. I have PC BSD that I thought used the KDE, so now I need to do a bit more research.

re: KDE

In reply to Actually I did NOT know this

PC-BSD does use KDE as its default desktop. A lot of the same software will run on both *BSD and Linux, so that’s no surprise. The BSD family of Unix and the Linux family of unixlike OSes are two separate families that sprang from different sources — *BSD actually evolved from the original AT&T Unix, and the Linux kernel was created years later by a Finnish college student, basically for fun. Both of them were made available on x86 architecture systems at about the same time, in the early ’90s.

re: PC-BSD

In reply to Actually I did NOT know this

By the way, since PC-BSD is basically just FreeBSD with a pretty face (and FreeBSD is currently my favorite OS), I may have to give it a try soon. The things I’ve heard about PC-BSD make me think it might basically be the Ubuntu of the BSD world, but without the negatives attached to Ubuntu. Whereas Ubuntu is an actual fork of my favorite Linux distribution (Debian), with less stability, fewer packages in the archives, and a hosed-up security model, PC-BSD is still FreeBSD (my favorite *BSD), just packaged up differently.

Keep telling people about PC-BSD. I’ve noticed you like it — and I’d like to see it get more attention, particularly as an alternative to Ubuntu.

GREATEST thing ever for LINUX

In reply to UPDATE: Normal use of USB devices can trigger Vista WGA de-activation

I love Windows for their WGA’s and problems with it . . And when People get to buy windows a few times they will begin to look around for a different O/S and just maybe they might like some flavor of Linux like what from free to maybe $60.00 they have BUT the People of the different FLAVORS of LINUX have to step up to the plate and get the news out there I keep banging on people heads . . I have already proved to people they can run their favorite MS stuff on LINUX using Code Weavers Pro . . I just have some stuff which is not made by MS and will not yet run in Linux as soon as I get it to work there ( driver problems ) I am gone from windows ( I will put the windows Hard drive up on a shelf and leave it there ) Just incase I got to help a windows person whom comes in with their windows box and need some help with it ( oh yeah I have Win 2K on it ) So XP and Vista are out of luck go else where do not want the head aches . .

Give me a break

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

Anyone worth their IT salt never ever goes with bleeding edge technology, be it hardware or software, I will wait a year since Vista’s initial release and install it and not have any substantial problems with it. Letting all the air heads out there get hit with the bugs that MS will eventually fix. If there wasn’t such a loss of morals in this world, stealing and reselling everything that they can get their hands on there would be no need for anti-priacy laws. Hate to be such a hard a_s about this but seriusly folks, this is common practice, you jump into the water before it’s tested, your gonna get bitten.

Unix Mantra

In reply to Give me a break

One has to follow this religiously…

“Don’t fix it unless it is broken”

Here’s some news for you…

In reply to Give me a break

.
This is not about bugs. Of course it is wise to wait for SP1 or SP2. That goes without saying. But, even after all of the bugs and problems are fixed, Vista’s WGA will *still* capriciously de-activate based on software events, by design. Erroneous de-activation has happened to millions of legitimate customers with XP, and it will be much worse with Vista.

Read the thread to find out more about this.

When they get XP fully fixed I will

In reply to Give me a break

when they get the XP fully fixed and SP 4 is out then I might up grade to XP and “Vista” is not even on my radar to put on anything . . There are a lot of LINUX versions I like and Take maybe 40 minutes to install completely ( Linux 2007 6 CD’s ) and its done .. . Not like Win 2 K Pro which takes over an hour to install and its only 1 CD plus the other fixes to install got to be 14 of them ( beyond SP 4 ) Plus adding anti virus and firewall and your up to almost 2 hours . .
plus there is real and quicktime and windows media . . and the memory watcher and the other items they want like Intervideo and Nero 7 and so on ( so your up to 3 hours now )

Windows XP is not any better

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I had a problem with am MSI motherboard that took me 3 Mounts to find.In the device Manger
there were no Caution Signs showing and after Reloading XP 6 or 7 times and having to call MS every time for there 50 diget # and having to talk to ther rep. one Day I spent some time in the Device Manger & Opened every singel page. Then in the Mother board Support last page I found 5 Confilcks
with the sound board, video board even the HDD. After E mailing MSI and them telling me to take the Mobo out of the case and only conect the HDD Video Card and DVD if was still a problem to send it in to them. On a $75.00 board thats 2 yeas old I don’t think so.That was the 3th Board 2 pryers went in under Warrenty. So I took the first SOYO board that I originly Bought and though I had alot of problems with (Sent 2 XP Home version back Because Hole programs would come up missing then got XP Pro)Worked Jest Fine With XP Pro SP2 But didn’t work with SP1. It’s been working good for 6 mounths now. But if I would of had a OEM version istead of a box version I would of had to buy eather a New Computer or another XP OS Which Sucks because of bad hardware. For me my next Computer I will be looking forwerd to checking out Festa Fone. XP has been the Worst OS I have ever owned compaired to 98SE & 2000 so VISTA is out of the Question for me

At the end of that I would have

In reply to Windows XP is not any better

After 6 or 7 times I think I would have gone back to Win 2K Pro and sent the stuff back to MS for refund ! ! Or gone to Linux 2007 and installed it then added Code Weavers Pro and then you can run the windows stuff with out the problems of Windows . . At Linux speeds
Linux 2007 is like $15.00 delivered to your door and Code Weavers Pro is like $60.00 delivered to your door . . So for under what the XP cost you got everything !

Too Late!

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

Everyone just now realizing they should never have upgraded to Vista are TOO late in figuring that out. Even if Vista was going to be a good OS, I realized before it was released that it would be a good year or two before I would want to upgrade. After all, now that it’s out and I can read all the feedback, I’m not sure I’ll ever upgrade. I’m more than willing to stay with XP, *nix, and Mac. Another thing that frustrates me as a tech support guy, is the fact that all these end users are buying new computer with vista or upgrading. That’s okay though. As I’ve never used Vista, I now keep that Microsoft Technical Support number and all the Manufacturer’s numbers that have anything to do with Vista right by my side. As soon as I hear they’re using Vista, I just pop up the list and refer them. I didn’t do this at first as it’s my common practice to do everything I can to troubleshoot the problem. However, since Vista makes absolutely no sense, I love whipping out the list and getting rid of the sucker that has Vista.

Windows Genuine Advantage (WGA) [i]MALWARE[/i] is here!

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

.
The “advantages” of the Windows Genuine Advantage (WGA) are growing…

[b]Windows WGA Malware is here![/b] (1)

This insidious malware is a trojan that phishes for credit card numbers. Here’s how it works:

[i]”…Revalidation is an increasingly familiar process for many end users and, for some, warnings of counterfeit software should the software fail validation. The counterfeit popup appears when the computer reboots or wakes from sleep. The Trojan plays off both behaviors and even Windows Vista’s mechanism of essentially shutting down when product activation fails.

The Trojan launches a Windows Piracy Control Screen (2) on bootup following infection.

“You can choose only ‘Yes’ or ‘No,'” Takashi Katsuki wrote on the Symantec security Weblog. “You can’t run Task Manager or any other applications. If you choose ‘No’ your PC will be shut down immediately.”

If the end user chooses “Yes,” an “Activation of Windows” box opens (3), requesting personal information, including credit card number…”[/i] (1)

I especially love the part where it says “Important: your card will NOT be charged” (2). Outstanding! :^0

Anyone with half a brain could have anticipated this move by the criminals. They have lots of university degrees in Redmond, but no friggin’ common sense. Now your computer is being attacked by “Genuine Windows”, and also by Windows Genuine Advantage (WGA) malware.

[b]Thank you, Microsoft![/b]

Beginning back in 1992, I relied on Microsoft, Windows, and MS Office (then separate programs) to power my computer. I was thankful to Microsoft for empowering me to be able to compute independently, and do it better, without a mainframe or minicomputer. It was a new level of independence and empowerment that was not possible in the 1970s, and only began to emerge in the 1980s.

Now, I really have to thank Microsoft again. Their very serious stunningly stupid mistake with WGA has forced me to make the effort to permanently migrate to Linux and Mac OS X, and to OpenOffice and other FOSS. This has empowered me even more. Not only am I every bit as productive and safer from malware, I’m also saving large sums of money.

————————————–

(1) Windows Activation Trojan
http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/security/windows_activation_trojan.html

(2) Microsoft piracy control window
http://www.symantec.com/enterprise/security_response/weblog/upload/2007/05/Kardphisher11.html

(3) Windows activation window
http://www.symantec.com/enterprise/security_response/weblog/upload/2007/05/Kardphisher2.html

Thanks for this TE2…

In reply to Windows Genuine Advantage (WGA) [i]MALWARE[/i] is here!

Am copying and sending to a number of folks I know who think I am nuts in my objections to the latest and greatest Windows.

Watch out for the coming “denial of service” type of WGA malware

In reply to Thanks for this TE2…

.
You’re welcome boxfiddler…

I expect there to be destructive WGA malware also, not just thievery like this one. The destructive malware will infect your Vista system, trigger de-activation, and advance the clock 31 days, producing INSTANT “reduced functionality mode” where you cannot use your computer at all (for your OWN work that is). Won’t THAT be a great day to have something important to do.

I think an ice cube has a much better chance of surviving in hell than Microsoft does on getting complete control over this.

I can hear the howls of protest now…

Yes I just read about this

In reply to Watch out for the coming “denial of service” type of WGA malware

The bad guys are getting smarter ! They invented a Malware Trogen just for Windows ..
Something will trigger the windows activation form and if you do not fill in the spots you do not get to run your computer . . BUT all the info you filled in goes to the Hackers ta dah !
You just gave them all your ID and card info and address . . just guess whom had their ID stolen . . And thanks to MS it will expand to other stuff hehehehe Welcome to LINUX all you windows users . . Add Code weavers Pro to it and your off and running all the Windows main line stuff and with cedgea or something like that you can run tons of windows games . . for a LOT less in cost ! !

The number of times I have told them

In reply to Windows Genuine Advantage (WGA) [i]MALWARE[/i] is here!

That Windows WGA would come back and bite them in their Bottoms is beyond counting . .
Was glad to see those links about windows problems ! I am saving them just for the next person whom has this great love for WINDOWS . .
Think I will print out the pages also

Enjoyable post, but no reason to “thank”.

In reply to Windows Genuine Advantage (WGA) [i]MALWARE[/i] is here!

In the spirit of Microsoft, just capitalize on the opportunity when you see it, and THANK NOBODY!

[i]Now, I really have to thank Microsoft again. Their very serious stunningly stupid mistake with WGA has forced me to make the effort to permanently migrate to Linux and Mac OS X, and to OpenOffice and other FOSS. This has empowered me even more. Not only am I every bit as productive and safer from malware, I’m also saving large sums of money.[/i]

Give a couple rupies to some Indians, if you feel like it, but thank nobody.

Hot tip for Windows users: Try Kubuntu 7.04

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

.
Canonical, the company behind the Kubuntu (and Ubuntu) Linux distributions, recently released Kubuntu version 7.04 . Kubuntu is “end user Linux”. It’s not an “erector set” for computer geeks. Windows users who are interested in freeing themselves from Microsoft tyranny should download the Kubuntu 7.04 CD and try it (1).

Highlights:

** Most polished version of Linux I have ever seen. Windows users will like and be immediately comfortable with the K Desktop Environment (KDE) in Kubuntu.

** Boots “live” from the CD in just a few minutes (no changes to your hard drive). You can even fully use it this way. Spend the day with it. Save files to a USB thumb drive.

** Automatically detects all of your hardware, even wireless networking.

** Includes the latest OpenOffice suite.

** Installs from the same CD to your hard drive in just [u]15 minutes[/u]! Best OS installation I have ever seen. Better than every Windows install I have ever done, including Vista.

** Best “Add/Remove Programs” I have ever seen, bar none, even better than Windows. Installs additional software online [u]in seconds just by selecting it with the mouse[/u]. No dependency problems. No CDs. No CD keys. No activation. No de-activation.

** Price: $0.

[b]A good Kubuntu 7.04 article[/b]

Here (2) is a good article about Kubuntu 7.04 “Feisty Fawn”.

——————————–

(1) Kubuntu — The best Linux I have seen for Windows switchers
http://www.kubuntu.com

(2) Seven steps to Feisty Fawn bliss
http://desktoplinux.com/articles/AT3648616185.html

I downloaded it Sat

In reply to Hot tip for Windows users: Try Kubuntu 7.04

but I have yet to try to install it. Maybe sometime this week, as I have been very busy recently. Last week I had inquired about Feisty Fawn, and received some good feedback in peer mail mainly. It sounds like a lot of people are looking at this OS happily so far.

haha me too !

In reply to I downloaded it Sat

You must have been downloading it same time as I could only get 153 k download speed took almost 1 hour but I got a lot done during that time . . I got to add it to the 100 gig drive ( my 3rd drive for checking out O/S’s ) and run it up as to what it can do and whats in it . .
I change whats plugged in and have to go back thru the CMOS as to what boots where ( my CMOS has got to be so confused being changed so often )

Didn’t Work Out

In reply to Hot tip for Windows users: Try Kubuntu 7.04

I tried Kubuntu, it worked like you said, but I couldn’t get any of my applications to work. Am I supposed to get rid of my old apps that I’ve used forever and learn all new ones? Not sure I could do that.

Thank you for the idea, though. Its good to at least have other options out there, even if this particular one wasn’t the right one for me.

Switching to Linux means really switching

In reply to Didn’t Work Out

.
[b][i]”…Am I supposed to get rid of my old apps that I’ve used forever and learn all new ones?…”[/i][/b]

Probably. It depends. Linux is not Windows, it’s not trying to be Windows, and it is never going to be Windows. When you switch systems, you must switch applications too. If choose to keep your Windows apps, you may also have to choose to continue running Windows.

There are ways to run Windows apps on Linux such as CrossOver (1). I personally have not gone this route. This (2) is my approach to leaving Windows. I plan to continue running some real Windows and a certain few Windows apps on a physical or virtual machine. All the rest is going to be portable native apps on Linux and Mac OS X. I am now spending most of my computing time on a Linux workstation.

Each of us has the power to choose to stay with, or leave, Microsoft. If you choose Microsoft, you may end up being victimized like one of these (3) people. It’s abundantly clear that Microsoft thinks they can force everyone to do what they want them to do, and pay them handsomely while doing so. I’m through with submitting to that. I would really like to see Microsoft humbled by losing 50% of their market share to Linux and Mac OS X. That would force them to start serving their customers, and provoding real interoperability for a change or lose even more of them. But, I’ll settle for just personally escaping from their grasp as I have.

All the best…

—————————————-

(1) CrossOver
http://www.codeweavers.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CrossOver

(2) The LEAVING WINDOWS Project
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=213495&messageID=2185615

(3) Victims of Microsoft’s Vista WGA
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=222826&messageID=2235539

Its why I have 2 Computers

In reply to Switching to Linux means really switching

Until I get a driver made for two items and it works I run Windows 2000 Pro on one machine and Linux on the other one . . Has gobs of games to play while I think about next way to make the driver . . I am thinking maybe de compile the program and re compile in a Linux driver . . since it comes with programming C and C + already . . Ask Verizon about the Router with a powered USB port and they just said no powering it does not do it, got to be able to turn it on ( make it work )
As as soon as I turn on the computer the light on the USB720 Modem comes on but you got to make it turn on to go on line . . So That means a driver . .

You left 1 thing out

In reply to Hot tip for Windows users: Try Kubuntu 7.04

It also Dual-Boots so easily that a novice pcRepair-tech (my assistant) did it with no prior knowledge of anything other than windoz

Well i really don’t think Microsoft cares if a few people jump ship

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

Well i really don’t think Microsoft cares if a few people jump ship

By Reuters
4:14 PM EDT Thu. Apr. 26, 2007
SEATTLE – Microsoft Corp. posted a 65 percent rise in quarterly profit Thursday, topping Wall Street estimates due to better-than-expected demand for its new Windows Vista operating system.

Shares of Microsoft rose 5 percent after the announcement, in which the world’s biggest software company also forecast 2008 profit at the mid-point of a range of analyst estimates.

“The strength of Vista is really driving this,” said Kim Caughey, analyst at Fort Pitt Capital Group. She added that the company had set “manageable expectations for the full year 2008, which generally allows them some headroom.”

Whine cry stomp your feet say Microsoft is dieing they are dead we hear this every time a new OS rolls out the door.

and sure a few leave and start using something else but not near enough to put a dent in Microsoft’s profit margin.

and for everyone that leaves 10 takes there place so like i said i don’t really think Microsoft really cares if a few jumps ship

I can be an analyst too

In reply to Well i really don’t think Microsoft cares if a few people jump ship

.
The jury is still out on whether Microsoft is going to feel any pain or not.

[b][i]”…Microsoft Corp. posted a 65 percent rise in quarterly profit Thursday, topping Wall Street estimates due to better-than-expected demand for its new Windows Vista operating system…”[/i][/b]

Can you say “channel stuffing”. And “better than expected” doesn’t mean a darn thing. What about low expectations?

Frankly, I don’t believe those numbers are caused by Vista’s sales strength. I could be wrong of course. But, since I’m an analyst, it [u]must[/u] be true. Furthermore, a rise in sales should be expected. Throughout 2006 Vista was expected to be delivered for the Christmas PC sales season. This caused many PC buyers to wait. Then it was delayed until January and people waited some more. So, there darn well [u]should[/u] be a spike in demand in calendar Q1. Doesn’t prove anything. As the word is getting around about all of the problems with Vista, what will the affect on sales be in calendar Q2 through Q4?

[b][i]”…Whine cry stomp your feet say Microsoft is dieing they are dead we hear this every time a new OS rolls out the door…”[/i][/b]

I never said Microsoft is dying or dead. But, it could be said that Microsoft is “dead” to me.

[b][i]”…”The strength of Vista is really driving this,” said Kim Caughey, analyst at Fort Pitt Capital Group…”[/i][/b]

I don’t think Vista is anywhere near as strong as this analyst says. The rejection of Vista is unprecedented. PC OEMs are going back to offering XP. I checked yesterday and couldn’t even find Vista upgrades for sale on ZipZoomFly.com. In fact, when you click on “Operating Systems” on their home page, you get a page that lists only XP (1). I got a chuckle out of that!

And, now Dell is offering Linux in an unprecedented way. There is something going on that we cannot put numbers to yet. Personally, I never DREAMED I would ever stop running Windows, yet that is exactly what I’m doing.

——————————-

(1) The “Operating Systems” page on ZipZoomFly – sells only Windows XP
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ThirdCategoryList.jsp?SecondCategoryCode=1202

strength/weakness in markets …

In reply to I can be an analyst too

follows strength or weakness in quality of technology by a considerable period, as in the duration of the dot.com bubble before the dot.com bust.

[b][i]”…”The strength of Vista is really driving this,” said Kim Caughey, analyst at Fort Pitt Capital Group…”[/b][/i]

Depends which strength you mean. Still strong selling points to a lot of consumers? Sure. Strong technological basis? Maybe, maybe not.

since I’m am posting how much there stock went up

In reply to I can be an analyst too

since I’m am posting how much there stock went up and since they can not lie about what there earnings are because i don’t think balmer wants to go to jail for lying to share holders. about earnings and quarterly profits.

and looking at the pass trends and all the FUD mostly spread by people who have never even used the new OS

i stand by what i said in my last post and when the next Microsoft OS is released it will be the same thing all over again

this is the death is Microsoft it’s dieing the open soruce guys will be spreading there FUD some will be jumping ship most will be staying Microsoft will work out the bugs out of the new OS the FUD will die down till the next time.

it does not take an analyst to see that all you have to do is look at the passed

There are Lies, Bloody Lies and Statistics

In reply to since I’m am posting how much there stock went up

As one American writer said many years ago.

Yes you have quoted a raise in the M$ Stock price but not compared it to what it was a year ago or even 5 years ago and how much has been wiped off M$ by a drop in share values?

Anything is correct to say that there was a raise of such and such after a day but you need to look at the long term trends to see what is happening with the Markets Belief in any company. If M$ shares have increased dramatically in a 1 day trading period how much have they increased to and what is that in comparison to their all time High? After all M$ doesn’t have any real competition so why has their share price been constantly dropping over the past few years?

Don’t quote me one days trading and expect any massive explanations of how great that is look at the long term issues surrounding the company and what is happening in the Share Market to that company and then you just may begin to understand why there was such a dramatic lift in 1 days trading and then the profit takers moved in and the share price went where?

Col

Hal this is not one days trading

In reply to There are Lies, Bloody Lies and Statistics

Hal this is not one days trading you open source guys are free to dream that one day the world of software will turn into the socialist utopia where there is no Microsoft

where you have the right to just download any company’s work and change it at will but i have a fact check for you thats not going to happen.

all you have to do is look at the Microsoft’s stocks trends and as a company with $49 billion in the bank. to say vista is going to kill it is just well wishful thinking

believe what you wish but i am not talking about a one day quote it’s a posted a 65 percent rise in quarterly profit thats hardly a days quote.

Socialist utopia?

In reply to Hal this is not one days trading

Personally, I’m holding out for a free market economy with no monopolistic Microsoft squeezing out the competition. That’d be more like the perfect “utopia” for me.

“you open source guys”

In reply to Hal this is not one days trading

“you open source guys are free to dream that one day the world of software will turn into the socialist utopia where there is no Microsoft”

Thank you so much, but like apotheon, my dream of a world without Microsoft also is a world without government subsidies to corporations who scratch their Senators’ backs, and other parts, behind closed doors.

“where you have the right to just download any company’s work and change it at will but i have a fact check for you thats not going to happen.”

I have no crystal ball, SoCalGuy, but I do know one other thing that is not going to happen: [b]I[/b] will not donate another red cent to Microsoft, because of its lackadaisical approach to PC security, false advertising with regard to functionality (Yes, I remember the lies Microsoft told in 1998 about USB, “Plug & Play”, and an end to driver installation, and similar half-delivered promises since!), and immoral “End User License Agreements”, which are not visible until [b]after[/b] the act which allegedly commits me to agreement, ie opening the package containing Microsoft’s malware. Not a chance.

By the way, the command line is not more difficult to learn than the Windows GUI. In fact, in combination with free-of-charge doc & man pages, and $40 books, it permits learning a host of functions that would cost a lot more to purchase from Microsoft’s library. Thanks, but no thanks.

Microsoft will still provide “good enough” operation for a lot of casual users, and corporations with robust firewalls that alleviate the need for the workstations within it to be worth a d*mn, but it also isn’t good enough in a lot of scenarios, including mine.

WTH was all that about?

In reply to Hal this is not one days trading

I don’t remember a single thing about anything Open Source or in any way try to relate that Vista would kill M$.

You seem to be taking wild unsubstantiated leaps of faith and coming up stone dead.

IBM is dead and buried right well everyone seems to think so but last year they made a much bigger profit with a massive increase in turnover than anything that M$ did but they just do it in the background and are not at the head of the pack like they where many years ago.

But no matter what else M$ Shares have been in Free Fall for Several Years now with only the occasional step up in price which is them immediately dropped when the Profit Takers move in and sell off the shares that they bought cheap for a higher price. I notice that you never made any mention of those that got their fingers burned by buying M$ when it was at the top and just before it started dropping in value. Even the Long Term Approach will not help these people as they have kissed their money good by with no hope of even breaking even let alone making a small profit.

If you are what you claim to be you should already know this and just where did the Open Source Crap come from?

I’m a M$ Partner and use the tool that suits the individual job that is sometimes M$ and sometimes not. I personally don’t care one way or the other which I actually use provided that it works and the customer is happy.

If you have a problem with that then let it be but you are the one with problems not me.

[b]Note to Col disregard any Finical advice from So.Cal Guy as it is wrong and will cost you lots of money if you are stupid enough to follow any of it.[/b]

Col

Jeez…What a mess of a post

In reply to Hal this is not one days trading

1) FLOSS people do not dream of a “socialist utopia where there is no Microsoft.” I highly suggest you read the Cathedral and the Bazaar.

2) FLOSS does not give you the right to download and change any companies work at will, FLOSS gives you the ability to change software to fit your infrastructure.

3) Uh, their stock trend doesn’t look so great:
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=MSFT

They can’t even hit $32/share. Red Hat, which by your definition makes no money and is a “socialist utopia,” is trading at $22/share http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=RHT

4) The 65% rise is profits is due mostly to OEM sales and Office. Let’s see how they do in quarter 2. Plus, $32/share is pretty damn low for such a jump in profits…makes one wonder, doesn’t it…

If you look at Microsoft’s stock trend…

In reply to Hal this is not one days trading

.
[b][i]”…all you have to do is look at the Microsoft’s stocks trends…”[/i][/b]

If you look at Microsoft’s stock trend, you see a very poor chart (1). The split adjusted return since January 1999 is ZERO percent, same as “under the mattress”.

If you want to predict that things are going to get better for Vista, that’s fine. But, citing the MSFT stock trend does not support your argument. MSFT stock trend is very poor.

See also (2).

———————————–

(1) MSFT 10 years (split-adjusted)
http://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/quickchart/quickchart.asp?symb=msft&sid=0&o_symb=msft&freq=2&time=13&x=0&y=0

(2) Microsoft’s financial manipulations in calendar Q1 2007
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=212977&messageID=2231330

On Free Operating Systems

In reply to Hal this is not one days trading

There was a time when HOME computers came with a free os built in
Guess what the world didn?t end

Then some stupid company allowed some other hopeless company to sell an operating system for the personal computers that they made
That was when the quality of operating systems went down hill

The most important thing before this HUGE BLUNDER was the pc and the non-os software
(astounding)

Of course now in this so much more enlightened we are obsessed with the unimportant and (wow) wage verbal wars over it

This may blow some of you away
But we use to have arguments about the whole of the machine not some minor part
We also had arguments about the software that ran on those machines

But I don?t remember that many arguments about the operating systems on those
OLD SLOW and so stable machines that did what we wanted with so little fuss

So what was the most stupid thing that IBM did?
Was it that they chose Microsoft?
Or was it that they allowed Microsoft to sell the os for a computer they had made?

It’s IBM’s fault

In reply to On Free Operating Systems

As they wanted something cheap to fit to their PC that they where taking to market without much investment in, in the form of Hardware Development. They approached an almost Bankrupt little known company to supply all the software because that company was so small and so close to bankruptcy that they would do as they where told by IBM and IBM could retain control of the entire situation.

Pity that things didn’t quite work out that way but as they say [b]Such Is Life.[/b]

Col

Well for a while IBM had a O/S

In reply to On Free Operating Systems

It was called OS/2 and it was great had HPFS for keeping files from getting fragmented and ran like a scalded cat also ran windows 3.1 windows stuff . . And did it with out booting again in a different window like Code Weavers does now in Linux Came with its own fire wall ! I forget what I was using for anti virus jeez that was a long time ago . . Back when Linux was really just beginning and I had Linux 8.2 for a while gave it way . .

Hal 9000 is this the Max Shaft (MS) Virus

In reply to On Free Operating Systems

How like a virus is WGA

1 A Virus tries to disrupt the computer it is on
2 A Virus tries to spread itself to as many other computers as it can
3 A Virus will try to reinfect the computer it is on if anybody tries remove it
4 A Virus in many cases stops you from accessing your data
5 A Virus will resist attempts to remove it

WGA will do these things free of charge

So is this Max Shafts Virus
It may be the most effective virus in history
I think Max Shaft is a good name for a company who writes a virus

That is the specials page…

In reply to I can be an analyst too

go to the left column and click on windows heading to reach full pages of what is for sale. You will find Vista OEM and Retail there.

Of course! That’s the point!

In reply to That is the specials page…

.
Of course! That’s the point! I did not say they were not offering Vista at all. However, you will note that they are not listing the Vista upgrade versions at all (not even “backordered”). That can only mean that they are not moving well at all.

An online store is just like a retail store. They position goods that are moving in the “front”, and goods that are not moving well in the “back”. The “front” of an online store is certainly the home page — no Vista there. Another “front” or “end of aisle” is the product category “home” pages like the “Operating Systems” page. Vista was not on that page either, but XP was. To find Vista, you had to go all the way to its “shelf” in the correct “aisle”.

If Vista were really selling well, it would be featured better on that site like it was when it was released in January.

contact me

In reply to Of course! That’s the point!

Please contact me via “peer mail” at your earliest convenience. I’d have contacted you, but you don’t seem to allow others to “peer mail” you.

Thanks for your time.

Yeah…I did not turn on peer mail

In reply to contact me

Yeah… I did not turn on “peer mail” because I choose to limit my TR interactions to just the website. What’s on your mind apo?

something . . .

In reply to Yeah…I did not turn on peer mail

. . . that probably shouldn’t be mentioned publicly — but it’s no big deal.

OK, So Cal Guy, I have to admit, you’re right about one thing:

In reply to I can be an analyst too

[i]and looking at the pass trends and all the FUD mostly spread by people who have never even used the new OS [/i]

I have not used Vista.

I don’t plan to do so any sooner than my employer makes necessary. Blech!

I’ve used it a little.

In reply to OK, So Cal Guy, I have to admit, you’re right about one thing:

I was actually very mildly impressed with a couple changes to the UI with the introduction of Aero Glass.

I say “impressed” because, compared to earlier Microsoft UI updates in about the last decade, Aero Glass is a much greater advance in the kind of productivity enhancement it provides. I say “mildly” because those advancements pretty much consist of nothing more than very limited versions of similar functionality that has been available with Unixlike systems for a decade or two.

I was much, much more impressed with how slow the UI on a brand new laptop with a Core 2 Duo processor and two gigabytes of RAM can be at times. Four and a half seconds just to open a control panel dialog on that system is staggering.

Damning praise.

In reply to I’ve used it a little.

I’m not surprised it’s slow to open a control panel dialog, with graphics requirements so onerous as to measurably reduce the time a notebook can operate on battery power. A few dozens methods to display the icons for Control Panel items would not take 4.5 second if those [b]billions[/b] of processor cycles per second were used for anything worthwhile. But displaying millions of colors on each of millions of pixels takes time. Time that I don’t choose to waste on a second-rate programmer’s multimedia project.

Something to read !

In reply to Well i really don’t think Microsoft cares if a few people jump ship

May 6, 2007 10:10 AM
Windows Activation Trojan

Joe Wilcox
Joe Wilcox

Windows Genuine Advantage is the target of a new Trojan, which pretends to be Microsoft’s activation mechanism.

Symantec issued a bulletin in late April on the Kardphisher Trojan, which has a threat rating of “very low.” But the Trojan picked up new attention over the weekend, following a Friday post on Symantec’s security Weblog.

The Trojan takes advantage of one controversial feature of Microsoft’s Windows Genuine Advantage anti-piracy mechanism: revalidation. To receive most downloads, including Internet Explorer or anything from the Windows Update Web site, end users must validate that their computers are, in Microsoft parlance, “genuine.” But one validation isn’t enough. Microsoft has Windows clients periodically revalidate. The process is designed to catch new pirated versions as Microsoft continually updates its piracy database.

Revalidation is an increasingly familiar process for many end users and, for some, warnings of counterfeit software should the software fail validation. The counterfeit popup appears when the computer reboots or wakes from sleep. The Trojan plays off both behaviors and even Windows Vista’s mechanism of essentially shutting down when product activation fails.

The Trojan launches a Windows Piracy Control Screen on bootup following infection.

“You can choose only ‘Yes’ or ‘No,'” Takashi Katsuki wrote on the Symantec security Weblog. “You can’t run Task Manager or any other applications. If you choose ‘No’ your PC will be shut down immediately.”

If the end user chooses “Yes,” an “Activation of Windows” box opens, requesting personal information, including credit card number.

Katsuki explains:

“Now you may think ‘It can’t be true. I have activated my legitimate copy of Windows. MS can’t do such a thing!.’ Surely almost everyone will notice that something strange is going on, and hopefully very few people will actually become victims by inputting their credit card details. But unfortunately even the people who are not tempted to give up their information this time might well become victims the next time. After all, failure to follow the on-screen instructions results in your PC shutting down immediately.”

Microsoft has started selling Windows Vista upgrades online, which is a scenario where the company would ask for a credit card. Like a slick grifter, Trojans seek to create confusion and in doing so lead people to act stupidly. Microsoft would ask for its money upfront. Still, there is plenty of trial software out there for which people would pay after a set time period. So, for some end users there is ingrained behavior about paying for something after a period of usage.

Katsuki warned: “This Trojan teaches us all a good lesson?trust no one.”

That’s sad advice.

Windows WGA Malware is here! (1)

This insidious malware is a trojan that phishes for credit card numbers. Here’s how it works:

“…Revalidation is an increasingly familiar process for many end users and, for some, warnings of counterfeit software should the software fail validation. The counterfeit popup appears when the computer reboots or wakes from sleep. The Trojan plays off both behaviors and even Windows Vista’s mechanism of essentially shutting down when product activation fails.

The Trojan launches a Windows Piracy Control Screen (2) on bootup following infection.

“You can choose only ‘Yes’ or ‘No,'” Takashi Katsuki wrote on the Symantec security Weblog. “You can’t run Task Manager or any other applications. If you choose ‘No’ your PC will be shut down immediately.”

If the end user chooses “Yes,” an “Activation of Windows” box opens (3), requesting personal information, including credit card number…” (1)

I especially love the part where it says “Important: your card will NOT be charged” (2). Outstanding!

Anyone with half a brain could have anticipated this move by the criminals. They have lots of university degrees in Redmond, but no friggin’ common sense. Now your computer is being attacked by “Genuine Windows”, and also by Windows Genuine Advantage (WGA) malware.

(1) Windows Activation Trojan
http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/security/windows_activation_trojan.html

(2) Microsoft piracy control window
http://www.symantec.com/enterprise/security_response/weblog/upload/2007/05/Kardphisher11.html

(3) Windows activation window
http://www.symantec.com/enterprise/security_response/weblog/upload/2007/05/Kardphisher2.html
Posted: 05/07/2007 @ 06:37 AM (PDT) (edited 05/07/2007 @ 09:49 AM (PDT))

Microsoft’s financial manipulations in calendar Q1 2007

In reply to Well i really don’t think Microsoft cares if a few people jump ship

.
According to some people who have examined Microsoft’s financial reports, Vista and Office 2007 sales are not bad, but not as good as the bottom line number suggests, and not as good as Microsoft executives brag.

There should be huge demand by Microsoft customers (first Windows since 2001, first Office since 2003), but there isn’t.

[b]Microsoft’s calendar Q1 was pretty ordinary (for them)[/b]

Asset cash-ins and accounting method changes played a significant role in the “great quarter”.

** Microsoft changed the way they account for OS sales beginning with Vista. MS no longer defers 25% of sales over 3 years like they used to. MS is now taking ALL of Vista sales in the quarter when the sale was made, increasing reported sales in the quarter. (1)

** Microsoft took $1.7 BILLION in “deferred income” in calendar Q1. (2)

** Microsoft has decreased assets by $6 BILLION over the last 9 months. In contrast, Apple has INCREASED assets by $2 BILLION. (2)

[b]Why did Microsoft change accounting practices for Vista?[/b]

Microsoft has always been very conservative and deferred income into future periods like this. This begs the question: Why change it now? My answer: Because sales are not growing like they once were and Microsoft needs some help. Wall Street is losing patience with MSFT. An investment in MSFT over eight years ago, in January 1999, has appreciated by ZERO percent and MSFT is at 50% of its all time high (3). Why invest in MSFT when you can invest in winners like AAPL which has appreciated in value by one thousand percent over the same period (4).

———————————-

(1) “Vista, Office 2007 drive record profits for Microsoft” – Yes and no
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070427-vista-office-2007-drive-record-profits-for-microsoft.html

[i]”…Ok maybe the accountants hedged their bets a little by pushing?excuse me “deferring”?$1.2 billion in revenue from holiday season Vista upgrade coupons into the third quarter, which ended March 31…”[/i]

[i]”…Microsoft is also changing how it reports revenue from operating system sales. In previous years, Microsoft would recognize as much as a quarter of Windows revenues over a three-and-a-half-year period to reflect the costs of add-ons and upgrades provided by the company. That has changed with Vista, as the software giant will record all revenues from an OS sale during the quarter the sale takes place…”[/i]

—

(2) Microsoft’s Record Quarter: Shareholders Paid for Most of the Upside Surprise
http://biz.yahoo.com/seekingalpha/070503/34354_id.html?.v=1

[i]”…Microsoft has been drawing down its balance sheet over time. It stood at nearly $70 billion nine months ago. It was $66 billion at the beginning of the year. As of March 31, it’s less than $64 billion…”[/i]

[i]”…Microsoft reported that it had redeemed about $1.7 billion in unearned revenue from its Technology Guarantee program during this quarter as the result of the Vista and Office launches. Microsoft had deferred that revenue collected from computers shipped in calendar Q4 2006 with Windows XP that would later have to be upgraded to Vista for free…”[/i]

[i]”…But if you back out that $1.7 billion from Microsoft’s earnings for the quarter ended March 31, you find that it earned $0.31 a share, not $0.50. If you back out the entire change in the balance sheet between the beginning of the year and now, you find that Microsoft earned $0.24 a share. As a point of comparison, during the Christmas quarter before Vista and Office were available to consumers, Microsoft earned $0.26 a share…”[/i]

[i]”…Microsoft achieved record breaking earnings during the Vista launch quarter by taking money out of its assets, not through amazing sales of Vista and Office…”[/i]

[i]”…However, as a point in contrast, Apple Inc. has been launching a lot of products over the last nine months and has added almost $2 billion to its balance sheet and assets in the same period that Microsoft’s assets dropped $6 billion…”[/i]

[i]”…Microsoft’s own numbers tell us the way it is making more and more each quarter is partly funded by making each share worth less and less in assets. At the very least, this fact that Microsoft is dipping into its assets to pay for its record earnings makes me question just how successful those Vista and Office launches really were. Judging from the reaction of Microsoft’s stock price after those record earnings — and the fact that it remains lower than it was three months ago before the Vista launch — that fact hasn’t been lost on Wall Street either…”[/i]

—

(3) MSFT 10 years – Loser (split-adjusted)
http://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/quickchart/quickchart.asp?symb=msft&sid=0&o_symb=msft&freq=2&time=13&x=0&y=0

(4) AAPL 10 years – Winner (split-adjusted)
http://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/quickchart/quickchart.asp?symb=aapl&sid=0&o_symb=aapl&freq=2&time=13&x=0&y=0

Macintosh web “surfer share” has doubled in the last 8 months

In reply to Well i really don’t think Microsoft cares if a few people jump ship

.
[b][i]”…The portion of people surfing the Web using a Mac has doubled in the past eight months…”[/i][/b] (1)

This is highly significant.

There is a strong correlation between sales and web usage. This growth in Mac market share is coming at the expense of Windows, and it continued to grow after Vista was released in January.

———————————

(1) Mac share of surfers doubles in eight months
http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9018641&intsrc=hm_list

QUACK!

In reply to Macintosh web “surfer share” has doubled in the last 8 months

It looks like they’re beginning to catch on.

It sounds like they’re beginning to catch on.

Yup, I’d say large numbers of people have noticed that we are being cheated, and don’t need what Microsoft is really not delivering, anyway.

Must be around

In reply to QUACK!

5000 off them now. Woopa-deedoo-mtf!

Although I’m guessing it is more to do with the fact the Mac OS can be run on Intel machines and nothing to do with Vista at all.

A bubble bursting moment for TE2 if I ever saw one!

Du__.-Du-de-du-doooo___.

Hyperbole anyone?

In reply to Must be around

.
[b][i]”…5000 off them now. Woopa-deedoo-mtf!…”[/i][/b]

I know you were joking… For the record, Apple has about 6% of the U.S. computer market and is currently the fourth largest computer maker in the U.S. behind Dell, HP, and Gateway. I don’t have the figure in front of me, but it’s solidly into in the tens of millions.

[b][i]”…Although I’m guessing it is more to do with the fact the Mac OS can be run on Intel machines and nothing to do with Vista at all…”[/i][/b]

The Mac’s rise in market share has nothing to do with Vista that I can see. I think it is very directly related to the Mac using the much faster Intel x86 processors (2x to 5x faster, depending on model). Also: People who need to run Windows programs can now do so very well inside a fast VM on their x86-based Mac. It’s no longer a complete break with Windows.

Correction (you probably know this): Mac OS X can run on an Intel-based Mac, but not on an “Intel machine” (not an x86 PC).

[b][i]”…A bubble bursting moment for TE2 if I ever saw one!…”[/i][/b]

The only bubble that is beginning to burst is Microsoft’s overconfidence and arrogance. :^0

[b]And another thing…[/b]

Q: How many Mac fanboys do you need to change a lightbulb?
A: One. He holds the bulb up and lets the universe revolve around him.

No, thank you. Hyperbole is the most useless thing in the universe.

In reply to Hyperbole anyone?

Well, maybe I exaggerated a little bit!

:p

I have a question about the Mac fan boy. If he holds the light bulb in place, letting the universe revolve around him to unscrew the dead light bulb, how does he get the new one in place without, at least instantaneously, bringing the angular momentum of the universe to zero and causing all its mass to pulverize him to oblivion?

The answer is…

In reply to No, thank you. Hyperbole is the most useless thing in the universe.

It requires the Apple iLight(tm) bulbs. Every other bulb has the opposite screws! :^0

Can someone please explain something to me

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I keep getting emails about this topic because I subscribed to it a while ago, I’ve tried to unsubscribe nearly 4 times and every time it doesn’t not work, the page says “Cant unsubscribe, no topic selected.” I don’t get it, I have sent emails back to try to get it removed individually but this doesn’t work either. This morning I had 19 emails about post replies of this topic in my inbox this morning, this is very annoying.. I can’t label it as spam or I don’t get any ZDNet emails either. This has been going on for nearly a month, please help.

Hi N98b….

In reply to Can someone please explain something to me

The notice you receive with the activity has a unsubscribe link which will take you to the threads page. Look to the right column and click on the “Discussions subscribed to” link under the Filter My Forum Posts. Once you are at the next page, click on the box under the title heading and voila, all of this meaningless babble will disappear.

Say, you don’t mind if I join you in unsubscribing from this discussions by inbreds also, great.

Nope, I don’t mind.

In reply to Hi N98b….

Thanks for your very helpful reply.

great

In reply to Hi N98b….

I guess we should just write you off as “troll”, then, judging by your inability to offer someone a little help without getting some kind of asinine passive-aggressive jab in at people uninvolved in the subject at hand.

Firstly TR only sends notification e-mails every 4 hours

In reply to Can someone please explain something to me

So to have 19 separate notifications you must not have checked your incoming e-mails for quite some time as the max that you can get is 8 a day so 19 is about 2.5 days worth.

Secondly to unsubscribe to a thread if you look at your above post toward the bottom of it on the right hand side is a Unsubscribe word in dark blue if you click on this it will unsubscribe you from this particular thread. You can even click on the Unsubscribe link on this post to unsubscribe from this thread. But if you are subscribed to any other discussions you will get regular notifications every 4 hours if something has been added to the thread and generally there will be several different listings of new answers or contributions in the 1 E-Mail notification on a popular thread like this one is.

But if you want out just click on the [b]Dark Blue Unsubscribe Word[/b] below the word [b]Next[/b] on this post on the right hand side at the very bottom of this post and before you need to scroll down to the next posting. That will remove you from the mailing list for this thread.

Col

Hers is the link from the most current

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

Windows User Groups Newsletter about the currently spreading WGA Trojan but it fails to make any mention of Vista

http://tinyurl.com/24rz9w

Vista doesn’t have WGA *wink wink* *nudge nudge*

In reply to Hers is the link from the most current

NT

RIGHT ! and my A$$ does not

In reply to Vista doesn’t have WGA *wink wink* *nudge nudge*

I do not have a A.H. either Where did you ever get the wink wink stuff from ?

He was only joking…NT

In reply to RIGHT ! and my A$$ does not

.

He borrowed the ‘wink, wink, nudge, nudge’ from Monty Python, I believe.

In reply to RIGHT ! and my A$$ does not

At least, that’s the only source I have seen of those exact words, in that order, repeated twice each. Don’t remember which of their programs it was, but the skit is about a guy, who turns out to be a virgin, asking a married man: “Does your wife like, uh, photography?” and other similar questions, repeating ‘wink, wink, nudge, nudge’ throughout. Not their best work, IMO.

First Preformed

In reply to He borrowed the ‘wink, wink, nudge, nudge’ from Monty Python, I believe.

This was first preformed live at the Drury Lane Theater in London.Not sure what year.
It’s one of my favorite skits by the gang, right after the Abuse Rooms skits.
I thought Eric Idle was just excellent as the sexual novice.John Cleese in my opinion is pure genius as were the rest of the great Monty Python Gang.I miss them.
Still make’s me laugh to this day.
Mind you, I’m a Monty Python Nut.
Regards
Aaron

Your Profile Reads….

In reply to First Preformed

“put in the programming, such as a windows Program and MS Office etc. and then I give them the Computer. There is never any charge for any of this”

Can I ask who buys the licence for the Windows Program / MS Office in this free arrangement?

If they want something I let them buy it

In reply to Your Profile Reads….

I am not putting my money out there for something they want . . I may install it for them but I am not the one whom buys it . . Its like Code Weavers for Lari I installed code weavers for her so she could run her windows stuff on Linux and not change her files . . That the only thing I have bought and installed But they will never go on line to register it so letting them use My Pro version is ok I think as Lari is not a Internet person ! They just do stuff on the computer it never gets bugs or worms or cookies . . from the web . .

If This is Aimed At ME

In reply to Your Profile Reads….

Just so you’ll know.
I don’t appreciate my integrity and credibility being attacked.
I won’t justify such an insulting question and innuendo with a reply.
Aaron

AB – This was a valid question…Redux

In reply to Your Profile Reads….

That you have completely chosen to avoid. There was no insult intended just a simple question about how you can provide free computers loaded with XP and Office.

You must be mighty kind or extremely well off to afford to give away such software for free!

Knowing the secret may allow me to do the same for friends & family who are always asking for a copy of Office or XP that I cant supply!

A.B’s profile was not changed with the addition of – “and is done in conjunction with Women’s organizations” – it was there to start with it seems.

No longer Offended Thank You “Profile NOT CHANGED” for you

In reply to Your Profile Reads….

Dear Tech Mail;
I was indeed offended and a little hurt at first ,however, I have now had a change of heart due to your explanation and I Thank You.
Think about this.
All of these Organizations are funded and strictly monitored by the Various City Halls, Provinces and Government Departments that fund them. Not to mention their accounting departments.
They must also account for any/all monies spent including Computers,Repairs and any/all programming.
As I am on a pension, I am hardly in a position to pay $250.00+ per XP for each and every system. The same goes for MS Office.
As for the Games they are Free games that I have downloaded from the net therefore given away freely.
Do you really think that having been a working Professional all of my life in a field that required honesty,integrity and above all dedication that I would now at this point throw it all way by installing “Illegal Software?”
Further,You’re note was wrong.
My Description has never changed nor was it changed to accommodate your question.
I continue to this day to install,repair, clean out and every now and again, when the situation arises “And I am asked to do so” I supply the entire Computer i.e. Case,Motherboard,Keyboard,Mouse and Printer if required.
This I get from Various friends,clients and anywhere else that I can get the parts needed and store them for exactly this purpose.
The programs installed are completely legal and strictly monitored by the various organizations, such as Abused Women’s Shelters,Homeless Men’s Shelters [They use the CPs in the Shelters] etc.
I hope this answers your question.
I would strongly suggest that you get in touch the Abused women’s organizations in your city and would encourage every Pro Tech to so.
What you would see in the form of Abuse and Cruelty by these so-called “Men and Husbands” would absolutely shock and astound you and then the reasons why I do this would become clear.
To this day I still collect any and all parts that I can get my hands on, specifically for this purpose.
They are stored away and used when the need arises.
Hope this gives you a better idea of how and why I do what I do.
Regards
Aaron

Ok change that a tiny bit

In reply to Your Profile Reads….

I put in “THEIR MS OFFICE” and give it to them
I do have a minor charge for it like $10.00 to sit there and watch it do its installation and check it out to make sure it works . . Most of them would mess up a key board if the had to install it . . A lot of my customers are what you would call “COMPUTER DUMB” . . they are lucky to be able to type . . Let alone do something like install software . . I got one whom kills mice ! About once every 4 months he is back for another one . . This last one was a Optical one I hope it last for a while 😉

Say no more…

In reply to He borrowed the ‘wink, wink, nudge, nudge’ from Monty Python, I believe.

http://www.jumpstation.ca/recroom/comedy/python/nudge.html

“no more…”

In reply to Say no more…

OK, now what? Through a hoop? How high?

:p

Follow me. Follow me. That’s good, that’s good!

In reply to “no more…”

A nod’s as good as a wink to a blind bat!

I presume that means…

In reply to Hers is the link from the most current

I presume that means Vista is not vulnerable to this particular trojan. Vista has been shown to still be vulnerable to some recent malware, but not all of the recent malware that attacks older versions of Windows.

Or alternatively Infopackets doesn’t consider Vista

In reply to I presume that means…

Users as real M$ users and has not as yet started writing articles for them because they are such a small user base as to not attract the need to apply any time or expend any effort upon. 😀

If I remember correctly when 2003 ES was released there was a patch for IE that was classed as Critical for XP users but Minimal for 2003 Users which covered the same thing but as Server shouldn’t have IE installed it wasn’t considered as important to 2003 as it was to XP. By M$ at least. :^0

Col

Why not

In reply to Or alternatively Infopackets doesn’t consider Vista

IE has no security problems
Just like window has none
What do you mean cumulative security update
It’s lies FUD I tell you
FUD FUD FUD

On security

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I have noticed that how secure or how much security
Are being used as the base for arguments on this discussion

Secure is secure it cannot be more or less
It is secure or not secure
Not less secure or more secure
If it needs a patch or fix it was not secure

Security is the same you have it or you don?t
No in between

The fact that Windows or Linux or any other software has security problems
IS THE ISSUE
NOT WHAT ONE AND HOW MANY

Why you other Windows users are not out abusing the hell out of Gates and co baffles me?

I cannot believe
They asked me if I trusted Microsoft in a survey
On their own website while I was looking for and downloading security updates

Automatic updates hide their mistakes
That is why most people never see what updates are being installed on
THE PC THAT THEY OWN
Never mind asking them if they want them
Hello WGA why are you on MY pc
Telling me that the Windows that I payed for is not genuine

Like so many of you other Windows users like to point out Linux is free
If it has a problem
AT LEAST YOU DID NOT PAY GOOD HARD EARNED MONEY FOR IT
Talk about buyer beware

Bill Open Gates needs to solve this problem or spend all his time apologising
Firing the idiots who caused it is a start
May need to fire himself last
Mostly for lack of performance
Hasn?t fixed it in how many years?

As for the software included on the Linux or Windows setup disks
EG web browsers, mail programs etc, which are freely included
(READ FREE SOFTWARE)

Arguments that this software is a reason to trash Linux or Windows is MORONIC
It shows that most of you DO NOT know what an operating system is
Not to mention the user interface

For the totally stupid people out there
Windows is only part of what is on the setup/install CD/DVD
Linux is only part of what is on the setup/install CD/DVD

GROW UP AND GET A CLUE

Apple is not included in this because they are a computer company that creates software for their computers
The OS (what ever it is) is Free with their computers
Listen here you filthy little troll
IF YOU NIT PICKERS WANT TO RESPOND TO THAT YOU WILL BE IGNORED

AGAIN GROW UP AND GET A CLUE

As for Windows activation and WGA yes they are (will be) one and all the same
I see it as just another thing poking a hole in the firewall/security
It is ridiculous
As if network security did not have enough problems
OMG Using the Internet to stop Hackers Inc
They live there stupid
Come up with something better
Smart cards come to mind
The fact there is a virus for WGA shows why this is a bad idea

The sad fact is Open Gates and co will never listen until we are beating down their doors
I hope Vista tanks
I hope Open Gates and the rest of his mob are booed and harassed wherever they go
The true slime that made it possible for all the other slime to get away with bad software

What rises to the top?
Slime is the answer

Shaun G. – Blame reply

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

> Too often we fall into the ‘blame >culture’… let us escape that idea.
>
> You point out you should of clarified… >I should of written clearer… and simply >said what I meant.
>
> All is well that ends well 🙂

> I shall read them 🙂
> Posted: 05/20/2007 @ 12:35 PM (PDT)

Who fault is it that we fell into the ‘blame culture’?

John,,,

In reply to Shaun G. – Blame reply

I was not speaking about a particular fault… I mean that too often people tend to look to blame someone or something for faults. Instead of blaming people, rather find out why it occurred, then put something or do something, so that it does not happen again.

I was not being specific.

Vista not the only version

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

As of recent I installed a external DVD player on my older computer running WindowsXP , I have installed on four differant computers and had to reinstall a few times due to complete system failure. When I installed my dvd player I was required to reactivate XP within 3 days. But to top things off I had to contact tech support because I was sent an error message saying My Copy of WindowsXP has expired . Go figure. Has to get a new installation ID # now what if I Have a problem can I reinstall.

Yes, you can re-install.

In reply to Vista not the only version

The nice people at Microsoft will let you phone them to re-activate the Operating System you paid them for the “privilege” of using, as many times as it takes.

The “nice” people at Macro$pend??

In reply to Yes, you can re-install.

I did not realise that Microsoft, oops Macro$pend were nice… :)) I missed the nice part…

My windows cd blew up in the drive and it took me ages to get a replacement CD from them. They kept claiming its not their problem. I finally did get one, but still had to pay to get it. Its not the first M$ cd that has blown up for me… M$ Office did it a few times too.

Keep a Copy of the New Product Key

In reply to Vista not the only version

And if you have to reinstall use that as it will be your new product key.

I’ve had this with several different Volume License installs when SP1, SP2 & WGA came out I had to change the product keys over each and every time.

Col

Another kink ?

In reply to Keep a Copy of the New Product Key

Have you had this in XP ? As I have just installed XP and stuffed the SP1,2 in back to back and did it while off line and did not get the problem Even installed IE 7 and no problems YET knock knock on wood . . Think I will download the Windows Medi 10 for it and push my luck . . ! 😉

YOU got stuck with the WGA

In reply to Vista not the only version

I have heard of it hey better check if you have the WGA worm also or you maybe giving your info to a hacker . . I thought the WGA was only the newer “Vista” must have been one of the NEW UPDATES added to XP hehehe I am glad I never went to XP . . Am holding doe SP 4 on XP before I go there and I disable the WGA right out the door before it goes on line . .

that is just the tipof the iceberg

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

vista is a complete dud!!
Ta mick

just found out???

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

how did you just now find this out? it’s been known for quite some time by people who read these things. and why is 3 days so bad in this case as opposed to the 30 days for when you install it? if you make a major change to your system, aren’t you there for that? then you can re-activate immediately and don’t really need 3 days. i do understand the reasoning behind this, whether i like it or not, because there’s so much piracy invovleing ms product, it’s primarily to stop ghosting of the product on one machine and passing it along to other machines, etc. and when ever anyone talks about rediculous profits for big business in terms of dollars, my first response is to ask if they know what percentage that is. usually they don’t and when you find out that it’s around 10%, which is normal for a successful business, you still don’t care, because it’s millions or billions, and a tiny intelect can’t quite wrap around those kinds od figures. also, the last round of ‘tax cuts for the rich’, resulted in both microsoft and gates, personally to donate every last cent of those refunds to both the employees of ms and other charities. so you’re up in arms about profit for no good reason, in my opinion.

“just now”

In reply to just found out???

“[i]how did you just now find this out?[/i]”

Check the date on the original post. You replied to a discussion that started in February.

so.. i found out last year

In reply to “just now”

so you missed the point, not hard to beleive as so many people here do. and when i say i found out last year, i’m not sure exactly when, but i could have been as early as june, and as late as november. still a far cry from feb. to be writing ‘i just found out’.

Say what?

In reply to so.. i found out last year

1. If you made your points clearly, they might be understood more often.

2. How do you expect someone to have necessarily found out about something like this when Vista didn’t really exist in business before November and on the open, home user market before January? Sure, some people were reporting experiences with Vista release candidates before that, but there are two problems with that. First, a release candidate’s behavior is not necessarily going to be the actual release version’s behavior. Second, release candidates weren’t subject to the same deactivation conditions as the release version, anyway — because they were available only for [b]testing[/b] purposes.

3. Why do you only reply to discussion posts long after they were originally made?

Maybe he has a SLOW E-Mail server

In reply to Say what?

I heard of the Problems that “VISTA” had I forget now but its been a while now . . I know it was before Jan 2007 . . I knew some of the testors of The Vista pile of stuff and thats putting it nicely . . They had lots of words for it and none were printable 🙂 They had problems with hard ware mostly this did not work and had to get this to make it work . . .

Top 10 points for you

In reply to just found out???

.
1. What I just found out back in [u]February[/u], was that Vista’s WGA is much more aggressive than XP’s WGA. Unlike XP, Vista can de-activate without any hardware changes at all. De-activation can be triggered by merely installing software, updating a driver, or upgrading the BIOS.

2. Sometimes the de-activation occurs at the next time Vista “phones home”. You may not be present for that.

3. Sometimes you don’t even get 3 days. Sometimes it is immediate de-activation and immediate “reduced functionality mode” where you immediately lose most access to your computer.

4. Internet re-activation now sometimes demands you make a phone call.

5. The phone call method, where you “talk” with a computer, sometimes demands you talk to a human.

6. When you call to talk to a human, you are talking to someone in Bangalore.

7. I don’t mind if Microsoft sells $44 BILLION per year. But, since they are doing so well, they shouldn’t put WGA de-activation on me and put my fully paid legitimate computer at risk in an effort to get more from the pirates.

8. A few examples of the nightmare are here (1). There are many supporting links in other posts in this discussion. Follow them, read, and learn.

9. Why put up with WGA de-activation when there are excellent alternatives that don’t abuse you? Would you buy a car that mistakenly de-activates because it thinks it is stolen? Or, would you change car makers? It’s amazing to me that people choose to submit to such abuse.

10. Paragraphs. They’re good. Use them.

———————————-

(1) A few Vista WGA stories in the victims’ own words
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=222826&messageID=2235539

Good old WGA problems . .

In reply to Top 10 points for you

I love it when it comes down to MS slip ups ! 🙂
Its one of the reasons I would BLOCK those Ports that windows likes to use for that
My Sygate fire wall yells at me saying this part of windows is blocked from talking to MS aw gee to bad so sad . . I block ALL of the Windows BUSINESS SEVICES period keeps me from getting those ahumm WGA problems you all got . . ! 😉 So before you go on line EVER again block those Business SERVICES and no more WGA to bother you . .

If WGA is installed, that can be a problem too

In reply to Good old WGA problems . .

If WGA can’t phone home, it could also deactivate your machine…

Good times really.

Wonder if there is a way to UN install WGA

In reply to If WGA is installed, that can be a problem too

I am glad MS thought of this Pain in the A$$ stuff ! Time for coffee BRB Ahhhhh much better now ! I guess I will play with it inside a VMware server in Linux and see how hard it is to delete it or remove it. . So it can’t shut me down 😉 Hey is it in XP with SP2 on it and I will play with Collin’s computer since he is not going to pick it up till next week . 🙁 . As I can always put it back together format and re assemble again 🙂

Well I’ve had 2 cases of WGA deactivating XP Pro

In reply to Good old WGA problems . .

Admittedly one case involved 2,500 Workstations on a Volume License and the other was an OEM version of XP Pro that I had turned the Updates off on.

In the single computer case the owner of a small business had died so I removed the ADSL Internet and setup a Dial up just in case the wife needed to send something from the business to the Tax Department or something similar. Currently I’m supporting that computer for at least another 4 years & 1 month at the very least.

Now as the Live Update wanted to hog all of the bandwidth I turned it off and told the wife to only visit the Windows Update site when I came around once every couple of months or so. After having the Windows Live Update turned off for 3 months the computer was shut down with a Pirate Software warning. The cure according to M$ was a Repair Install as when the computer was shut down it killed off both the Keyboard and Mouse so it was hopeless to attempt to get in even in Safe Mode you got the same Display though without the Video Drivers the display was lousy.

Then 3 days latter the one Government Department that I used to do work for had the same thing happen. Apparently the WUS Server had been pulled off line and wasn’t picking up any Windows Updates and with XP pro and SP2 the same thing happened. WGA shut down the computer without any possibility of reactivating killing both the Mouse & Keyboard and showing a very nice Pirate Software Message again.

The second time I knew exactly what was required but I also realised that I needed a new Product Key from M$ as well so that Government Department had to wait 8 days for M$ to supply a new Product Key then we could start to do a repair install on all the computers which had by this time been so altered that using an image was no longer possible with all the hardware changes that had been allowed over the 3 years since the original install.

But that was important as that Department lost any Unsaved Data and at least 8 days use of their computers all because WGA decided that because there where no Windows Updates applied all the computers had to be Pirate. Well at least there was some insane sort of reasoning behind this as it was a Volume License and all the computers had the same Product Key so they must have been Pirates Right? 😀

Here in AU M$ ran a test with the available free downloads where you could chose to allow WGA to make sure that you had Genuine Product or override this and just download the software which where all plug ins or something similar. Because 33% of people didn’t allow WGA to confirm that the product that they where downloading to was Genuine M$ read that as 33% of all Windows XP being used in AU where Pirate Copies.

Now from personal experience there where several drops of 5 or 6 downloads spread over 6 months so I would Verify the first with WGA and ignore the attempted verification of the remaining downloads as it wasted a lot of time going through the motions so I must be part of that 33% of Pirate Product. :^0

Of course after this was changed to needing WGA to verify all of these downloads M$ didn’t make any measurements of a Drop in Downloads so they didn’t perform a real Scientific Test they just pushed out something that made their case in the best light possible for them and with 33% of software being marked as Pirate they now have a great reason to attempt to justify their Draconian Anti Piracy Practises.

Col

Wow!

In reply to Well I’ve had 2 cases of WGA deactivating XP Pro

.
Capricious WGA de-activation is the best thing to happen to Linux and Mac EVER! And, I think history will record it as one of Microsoft’s biggest mistakes.

Pride goes before a fall.

Thanks for sharing this, Col.

P.S. Of course, I fully expect the mindless Microsoft and Windows defenders to argue that these customers somehow DESERVED to be de-activated. After all, only little boys and little girls who do something BAD are ever de-activated.

I added his post to my site

In reply to Wow!

I put the entire post on my web site on the computer geeks page and linked it back the post
Yes It will be the best thing EVER for Linux and Mac . . 🙂
http://www.lynns-store.com
links are on the left go down to computer geeks page link 😉 I might post it at a Linux forum just to make MS wiggle a bit 🙁 really makes my day 🙂

permission and courtesy

In reply to I added his post to my site

You probably should have asked Hal if he minded [b]before[/b] you reposted his words. It’s only polite, y’know.

Yeah your right !

In reply to permission and courtesy

I guess I should have ask first ! 🙁 But it was a post the was needed by the world out there . . 🙂 to be read
And with this WGA thing windows invented, I hope its the straw which cracks the back of MS . . 😉 Will keep their phones going like the people in Washington DC have been answering this week . . sitting here LMAO about it

FWIW, I have only the instance of WGA…

In reply to Well I’ve had 2 cases of WGA deactivating XP Pro

that was in SP2 installed to my WinXP machine. I also let Win auto update notify me, but not download and install things. I use the Custom Update option and cruise thru those options very carefully. And I have hidden IE7, WMP 11, and have so far been able to hide the WGA updates. WU doesn’t like it too much and I get warned about hiding “important critical updates, but so far, no probs. I can still get the security updates I need, but am able to stay away from the other stuff [to this point!].

WARNED ! sounds like

In reply to FWIW, I have only the instance of WGA…

That sounds like your on the razors edge of going either way . . A lot of those update were for things like MS OFFICE stuff and repairs for IE 7 . . I get notices of it up in Hot mail Only address MS has for me . . Since I went broad band I do not get as many notices of the MS ports not talking to MS . . Also do not get the hackers looking for me either like they did with dial up . .

WOW ! MS is getting a bit to weird !

In reply to Well I’ve had 2 cases of WGA deactivating XP Pro

Well I put a Computer Geeks page on my web site
with links to a dozen places for a different OS
Like Xandros, Linux Central, PCLinuxOS, Linspire, and Code Weavers plus Cedega for gaming I seem to be getting hits on it too . .
This kinda News makes my day sitting here shaking my head in wonder ! I will paste your post on the page . . Makes my Point for the ones reading it . . Might make the straw that breaks the GIANTS back . . And put the link to this page as your Post . .

Out with Windows, in with Ubuntu

In reply to Top 10 points for you

As a result of ongoing irritations with WGA and internet security hassles, I went to Linux last year while falling back to Windows 2000. I now have the 7.04 version of Ubuntu operating here in a dual-boot (Grub) configuration with Win2000. I had heretofore been running a mix of Windows and Fedora on different machines.

Compared with my experiences with MS over the years, Ubuntu has been wonderful and even superior to Fedora. I was astonished at the speed of Ubuntu installation. It took only about 20 percent of the time needed by Windows, and found more of my hardware automatically than Windows did. It also configured my cable internet connection automatically — Windows, not so much…

Comparing the two OS, I notice that Ubuntu boots faster and runs applications MUCH faster than Windows. Nor does Ubuntu freeze, not at all, ever (Every version of Windows I’ve worked with has been capable of freezing without user input — just wait for it). Ubuntu’s perfect for server applications and the install package allows you to select the appropriate options for this, omit the GUI, etc.

Ubuntu has an auto update function which runs at start-up and which not only updates the OS, but applications software as well. This appears to have worked perfectly for months – no broken or buggy applications, little or no lost bandwidth. This week, it updated the kernel, an operation not for the faint hearted when I was learning Unix/Linux SysAdmin.

The update process is fast, seamless and requires only my root permission. I think it is terrific NOT to have to recompile the kernel every so often.

Importantly, though it doesn’t seem to be widely known, Ubuntu reads Windows NTFS files (though it uses EXT3 itself), so all existing .doc and .xls files are still available, easing the transition. Other Linux distros either read NTFS natively, or can take advantage of an open-source add-on that allows this.

If you want Vista for the Aero desktop, or like the way the Mac looks, Linux users have an extremely sexy 3D desktop called Beryl. It will knock your socks off. And of course, it’s open source.

I went to Linux because I simply lost patience with Microsoft and vendors of Microsoft-compatible software. Failure of the Windows Genuine Advantage verification process can be a terrible inconvenience, even for a professional. I can imagine stunned home users completely losing the use of their computers and not really knowing how to recover.

Also some software vendors now are asking for successive re-registrations of Windows applications. I don’t mind paying for good apps, but I think a single registration should be enough. So I’ve dumped my Windows apps and learned to love Star Office, The Gimp, and all the other industrial strength open source apps out there.

I didn’t go to Linux for free software, I did it for speed, stability, convenience, and freedom from the sort of copy protection hassles that have dogged Microsoft and MS-compatible applications since the 1980s. Now it’s reached the point where I rarely boot Windows, and I can’t see myself ever going back. Linux and its associated software may have slightly different feature sets and, yes, there is a short learning curve for laypeople, but it’s faster, cleaner, it works every time and (unlike Vista) you don’t need a Cray to run it. Given the choice, I’ll never set up another Windows desktop or server system.

The open source community should be extremely proud of this effort. With something this good, there is essentially no reason to use Windows any more unless you have an application that won’t run on anything else. Windows has lost most of its reason to exist.

There are other options.

In reply to Out with Windows, in with Ubuntu

I’d definitely recommend PC-BSD before Ubuntu. It’s sure to be more secure and stable by default than Ubuntu, for instance, and in addition to the FreeBSD-native ports and packages, it also supports a very MS Windows-like installation capability called PBI for those who need the crutch of familiarity to help them make the transition.

For those who insist on Linux specifically (though I don’t know why anyone would do so, aside from a strong religious attachment to the cult of the FSF or lack of understanding that there’s more than Linux out there), I think MEPIS is probably a better option for Debian-derived user-friendliness than Ubuntu.

For a more “serious” OS, FreeBSD itself may be a better option. Again, if you insist on Linux, perhaps Debian is more your speed.

There are other options as well — but, for a complete newbie to the world of free unices, I’d definitely recommend PC-BSD over Ubuntu Linux.

One of those has a 21 disk set

In reply to There are other options.

I was up on Linux central a bit ago and one of the Linux systems Debian has a 3 DVD or 6 CD set for something like $30.00 for the DVD’s forgot what the CD’s were. . . At even at that price its better than Windows Lowest price So far I have not used Debian except the Ubuntu which is a form of it I think . .

Ubuntu is…

In reply to One of those has a 21 disk set

…Free. Both to download, or on CD — although their site says it may take up to ten weeks to reach you. Pretty good price, no? Probably accounts for at least some of its popularity.
Obviously a huge bargain versus any version of Windows.
You can purchase support if you want, a la Red Hat, but I’ve found all the info I’ve needed on line.
And you’re right, Ubuntu is a relative of Debian.

True…

In reply to There are other options.

…There are other options. I’m not plugging a particular distro so much as I am trying to underline the difference between Windows and Unix/Linux.
I’d contend that at some point in the last year or two, the Windows vs.’nix OS argument crossed a threshold. In terms of ease of use, ease of installation and maintenance, availability of apps, security, etc., there is little if any advantage to running Windows aside from the odd, unique application. Meanwhile, security-wise, Windows is still the biggest target on the Internet and MS’ business practices are indefensible.
As far as I’m concerned, we’ve crossed the line and the ‘nix OS’s now have an obvious advantage.
Vista was a tipping point.
I suspect there are folks here who think that line was crossed a long time ago — even the average home user now has almost all the ease of use s/he needs.

The OS that has seen the most

In reply to True…

The system which has seen the most of All the stuff I got attached to my computer with out any EXTRA Drivers needed is Linux 2007 and its 6 disk set ( have not tried the 21 disk set of one of the Linux version yet ) and I have 8 version of Linux here to play with or load and check out just got Solaris 10 it crashed . .
did not like all the junk I got plugged in
lets see scanner, color Printer, pad, joystick, 45 in 1 card reader, Palm piolet, ADS tech, and a Thumb drive 1 gig, plus the zip drive oh yeah my internet the Verizon USB720 broad band modem . . just a few thing plugged in and then there is the printer on the paralell port ( laser B&W )

Even works on a 900 megahertz CPU

In reply to Out with Windows, in with Ubuntu

I noticed it really worked on a junk computer oldies 900 megahertz with PC-133 memory 756 megs ran like a scalded cat ! And had gobs of games plus all the open source Office programs / applications anything any one wanted to run was there . . And I had to sell it to some one as their 677 megahertz computer died 🙁 . .
I was going to network it and see what all it could do . . Now its got Windows XP on it with SP 2 added kinda drags a bit not as fast as the Ubuntu 7.04 was 😉

TE2 and Apo

In reply to Top 10 points for you

I think to waste your time to explain these things, when it is clearly apparant (not just on TechRepbulic – but just about everywhere on the Net, that Vista is waste of time at this moment, is unnecessary. A person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still… It is quite clear that Inertman (if I spelt it correct) is one that runs with the philosophy “Dont confuse me the facts, I have already made up mind”.

Dont waste your efforts… everything you have said here, has previously been said by yourselves (I have read them) and by many others in this extensive forum post.

I agree, however…

In reply to TE2 and Apo

.
I agree that very very few people who post a view in this discussion (or any other on TR) on one side or the other is going to be convinced otherwise. So, the real question then is: Why post at all?

I don’t view posting here primarily as an attempt to convince another poster that they are holding the wrong position. It’s more about sharing your view, listening to other views, and learning from them. It’s conversation. It’s also about speaking to the silent lurkers who never post. In that sense, it is like writing an article in a newspaper. The “counter post” in that venue is a “letter to the editor”, typically from someone who is in strong disagreement. But, you still write the article for the silent reader to share information and provoke thought.

So, in this venue, I usually respond to someone who takes the time to post a challenge. But, I really don’t think I’m going to change their mind. And, that’s OK.

Thanks.

Why do you think …

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

Why do you think one of the other blogs is all about M$ claiming that open source violates 200 and some odd patents???

They are preparing for the day when they have to sue Linux to put them out of business.

Never mind that they have claimed in the past that one of their software bugs was as a result of code they copied from Linux (sans the stack overflow error routine).

I think they have pirated the code from Linux and then patented the routines in the belief that fighting prosecution will bankrupt all cash flow out of Linux development for proving that the code already existed PRIOR to their patent.

M$ owns you and your computer.

Get used to it.

They have already set up the demise of Linux for when they become a threat.

I have been reading them

In reply to Why do you think …

I am hoping they fall flat on their faces when they try it as they will see a MAJOR uprising like the Senators did when trying to shove this amnesty bill down Our throats . . the phone lines in Washing DC went it in to melt down mode, I got strange messages some times while calling them can you believe 3/4 of 250 million calls going into a city every hour for days . . and the people ranting to them . .

Well there are two things against this idea

In reply to Why do you think …

While it may be possible to do in the US the rest of the world fails to recognise US Patents and most defiantly the EU will prevent anything along those lines being adopted in their countries.

About the only people that could possibly be hurt by an action like this is the Americans and if M$ where silly enough to follow through with this all that they would succeed in doing is singing their own [b]Death Certificate[/b] in all other countries who they rely on to produce their software as well as physically make the CD/DVD’s.

Most of Asia is looking at some standard form of Linux to get away for M$ marketing practises and other than a couple of companies who are US Based no one will be affected, even then M$ has already got into bed with one of the major Linux Makers in the US Novel so their product will remain unaffected by any Legal action brought on by M$.

Then there is always BSD which has already gone through the legal mess and come out the other end smelling of Roses so it would be a simple switch to BSD from Linux and no benefit to M$ but potentially much more [b]Bad Blood[/b] would be produced and the movement away from M$ would increase till M$ is nothing more than the Bit player that it used to be scrounging to make pay packets from week to week.

The argument that Bill Gates has constantly used is that there is no guarantee that M$ will be top dog tomorrow is truer today than when it was first used as more and more people are getting fed up with M$ Bully Boy tacts and walking away from them in droves. This single action by M$ is what has them scared so they have pushed the panic button and brought out the Big Stick but they fail to realise that they are the ones responsible for the mass exodus in the first place. You remove Linux from the mix people will find something else and Linux by no means is the only available Open Source Product Available.

The real problem here is that M$ can not stomach the fact that they have made their own bed and are now forced to lay in it.

Col

Ok. Since you asked, here is what I think…

In reply to Why do you think …

.
[b][i]”…Why do you think one of the other blogs is all about M$ claiming that open source violates 200 and some odd patents???…”[/i][/b]

It’s called saber rattling. If there were legitimate patent infringements, Microsoft would sue the infringers and get just compensation.

If the patents I’ve read about are representative, Microsoft’s patents would fold and die in court. Furthermore, I guarantee you without any reservation that Microsoft would be counter sued to death for violating patents. Why do you think they are [u]cross[/u] licensing patents? Microsoft is more at risk than Linux is.

Microsoft’s saber rattling is complete bullsh*t.

[b][i]”…They are preparing for the day when they have to sue Linux to put them out of business…”[/i][/b]

No. You’re dead wrong here.

Who exactly are they going to sue? Every Linux distributor? Every [u]Microsoft customer[/u] (almost all of them run some Linux)? How many of those government customers and large corporate customers are going to continue buying from Microsoft after the suit? How many non-U.S. governments and non-U.S. customers are going to give one damn what Microsoft tries to do with U.S. patent claims? If Microsoft EVER sued my company, there would never be a single Microsoft product purchased ever again. And, Microsoft knows it would work that way for many customers. Suing customers will be the shortest route to a much smaller Microsoft Corporation, and Microsoft knows it.

[b][i]”…M$ owns you and your computer. Get used to it…”[/i]/[/b]

No. Microsoft owns YOU and YOUR computer. They don’t own me.

[b][i]”…They have already set up the demise of Linux for when they become a threat…”[/i][/b]

No. Microsoft knows that Linux cannot be defeated. There is absolutely nothing that Microsoft can do to stop the advance of Linux. If there was, they would do it. Instead, they are doing things like these patent sharing and “covenant not to sue customer” deals with the weak players in the industry. Where are the deals with the big players? IBM? Red Hat? Ubuntu? Oracle? Dell? HP? Google? Yahoo?

Novell is a big one? Baloney. Check their financials. They are losing billions of dollars. They are selling assets and laying off large numbers of employees. Cash from lawsuit settlements and deals with Microsoft are helping to keep them afloat.

[b]Microsoft is a pathetic overconfident arrogant company[/b]

I am a very long time Microsoft customer. I have switched to Linux because I am fed up with Microsoft’s manipulations. $44 BILLION in sales per year is not enough for them. They have squeezed the goose that lays golden eggs one too many times. This post was made using a computer running Linux and there is nothing that Microsoft can do to stop it. I don’t have any need for Microsoft anymore. They are fools.

The smartest thing Microsoft could do right now is drop all of these pathetic attempts to hold onto the past. Strive to please customers and deliver things they want to buy. Stop trying to force [u]the entire world[/u] to buy from them and do what Microsoft demands that they do. The sooner they stop trying to force [u]the entire world[/u] against their will, the sooner they will stem the tide of customers leaving them. If they removed WGA, they might even get me back.

I Must Say :)

In reply to Ok. Since you asked, here is what I think…

Although a Microsoft user since it’s onset, I completely agree with you and must admit that I consider your response to be excellent and succinct.
In short, “VERY Well Said and Well Done indeed”.
Thank you
Regards
Aaron

Thank you, Sir Aaron…

In reply to I Must Say :)

.
Thank you, Sir Aaron, Honorable IT Knight and defender of the realm. You are a gentleman of discriminating taste and sophistication.

TechExec 2 Sir; :)

In reply to Thank you, Sir Aaron…

You’re most welcome and Thank You for the Compliment.
Regards
Aaron

Get a Room! NT

In reply to TechExec 2 Sir; :)

NT

LOL …

In reply to Ok. Since you asked, here is what I think…

“”…M$ owns you and your computer. Get used to it…”/

No. Microsoft owns YOU and YOUR computer. They don’t own me.”

Yet here you are ranting on a board about what … Linux???

Since the lion’s share of the market is still owned by M$ do you think that any of the documents you share are based on some format that is not based in what M$ created???

Does Star Office, Open Office or any other ‘Offices’ including the new Google online version have a proprietary format that only they can use and that allow you to distribute to the rest of the world and be understood?

No … you’re going to find that even the most ardent fanboy of any computing realm is forced to toe the M$ line or be relegated to oblivion when the majority of the world’s conputer users can’t understand what you send them.

You’re as much Gates’s beatch as the rest of us.

Not your fault … not my fault however there were a couple of lawsuits several years back that MIGHT have remedied the situation but the USA supreme court dropped the ball.

Now, I didn’t say the M$ cases would have any merit however, they have an amazing cash base and simply by entering into litigation they can put the offices that pump out products like Ubuntu, Red Hat, Mandriva and all the rest on the ropes in no time flat and then extend the litigation before decisions are reached forcing them into chapter 11.

Who cares if they win after they have declared bankruptcy?

Think of the case of The USA vs. Microsoft for god’s sake. They extended that litigation for years and had it been anyone other than the US government, they would have bankrupted the complaintant.

As it was, the judge in the case had to ask Microsoft to take some of the lawyers OUT of the courtroom because there wasn’t enough room for the 17 that they sent to represent them.

And … we all know the result … M$ lost.

Or did they?

All the decisions have been ignored but I think the US government realizes that even THEY can not stand up to M$.

So what are Ubuntu, Mandriva, Red Hat and all the rest going to do when faced with the Gates legal army and their delaying tactics?

You’re aware that all they need is an injunction to stop distribution until the case is settled and they will hunt down anyone who shares a copy of Linux online just like that poor kid who figured out the encryption codes for DVD’s or violators of the DMCA.

Remember … several years have passed and M$ is even more powerful now than when the US and the EU took them on in court.

What are you smokin’, Smoking Man?

In reply to LOL …

.
[b][i]”…Does Star Office, Open Office or any other ‘Offices’ including the new Google online version have a proprietary format that only they can use and that allow you to distribute to the rest of the world and be understood?…”[/i][/b]

MS Office competitors don’t need to have a proprietary file format and they don’t need to destroy MS Office. They only need to stop MS Office from being the sole office suite. They have already won.

I run OpenOffice. It works very well with the MS Office 1997-2003 format that all MS Office users can use. Furthermore, Adobe Acrobat (PDF) is the standard way to send documents outside the corporation, not MS Word. I think the proprietary MS Office 2007 XML file formats will have limited adoption — the MS Office 1997-2003 file formats will be the universal formats for a long time to come.

[b][i]”…You’re as much Gates’s beatch as the rest of us…”[/i][/b]

Microsoft has not gotten any of my money this year and probably will not get any more in the future. I’ll bet you cannot say the same. Which one of us is the beotch now? :^0

[b][i]”…All the decisions have been ignored but I think the US government realizes that even THEY can not stand up to M$…”[/i][/b]

Are you nuts? Microsoft is not an invincible superhero with a big “M” on its chest. The U.S. government does not fear Microsoft. Remember this Bill Gates’ deposition (1)? Nope. Not a superhero.

Microsoft was convicted of violating U.S. antitrust law by the judicial branch of the U.S. government. The only reason Microsoft was not more severely punished is because the pro-business executive branch of the U.S. government (in a Republican administration) did not follow through. Like the American people, the U.S. government is not homogeneous.

[b][i]”…You’re aware that all they need is an injunction to stop distribution until the case is settled..”[/i][/b]

In order for there to be an injunction, the judge would have to be convinced that Microsoft would likely win the case (highly doubtful) AND there will be irreparable harm done unless the injunction is granted. Since Microsoft is selling huge amounts of software ($44 BILLION per year), there will not be irreparable harm. You’re dreaming, MS fanboy.

Furthermore, a U.S. court does not have any control over what occurs outside the U.S. Any such injunction would be very ineffective. That is part of why Microsoft is not pursuing this directly in court.

[b][i]”…and they will hunt down anyone who shares a copy of Linux online just like that poor kid who figured out the encryption codes for DVD’s or violators of the DMCA…”[/i][/b]

Any DMCA-style legal action by Microsoft would be the shortest route to a smaller Microsoft Corporation. The howls of protest would be so loud you would hear them all the way over in Tianjin, China.

[b][i]”…Remember … several years have passed and M$ is even more powerful now than when the US and the EU took them on in court…”[/i][/b]

It’s true that Microsoft is making more money right now than before. But, this is due to the volume of PC sales. However, Microsoft is less powerful now than they have been in many years.

** Microsoft’s stock has the same price now that it did in 1998 (with splits factored in). Your nine-year investment appreciation: ZERO percent.

** There is a viable x86 desktop operating system (Linux), office suite (OpenOffice), and web browser (Firefox) that are winning market share.

** Sales of the x86-based Macintosh desktop and notebook computers are rising rapidly. Macintosh alone has over 7% market share now.

** Linux and Apache is the most widely used web server platform by far.

** Open source relational database systems are very advanced and widely used now (MySQL, PostgreSQL).

** Companies are demanding cross-platform technologies now. Microsoft’s dream of a Microsoft-only world are really most sincerely DEAD.

** Microsoft has not been the standard-setter for web technologies for years now. Sun’s Java, Adobe’s Flash, and even Apple’s QuickTime are key web technologies now. Microsoft Silverlight? Few people are foolish enough to adopt lock-in technologies anymore. I predict Silverlight will have limited success. Adobe Flex will be the next RIA king.

** After five years of development and anticipation, pathetic Vista is being rejected even by many Microsoft stalwarts. Things will get better, but only after problems are fixed.

** Dell is now offering Ubuntu Linux on their PCs.

** Have you noticed that there are no big Microsoft software “partners” anymore? You don’t see other big players on stage with them during product announcements anymore. Most people know that partnering with Microsoft is the kiss of death and refuse to do it. And, Microsoft is picking fights with the partners they still have like Adobe and Symantec. Microsoft is making stupid mistakes.

** Microsoft is making mistakes and driving customers away. WGA is pissing a lot of people off (2)(3)(4).

Microsoft is not going to die. But, they are less powerful now than they have been in many years.

——————————————–

(1) Bill Gates deposition in the U.S. vs. Microsoft case
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qNVe024RvI

(2) Vista falsely de-activates large numbers legitimate customers
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=222826&messageID=2235539

(3) Windows Vista Validation Issues Forum
http://forums.microsoft.com/Genuine/ShowForum.aspx?ForumID=1004&SiteID=25

(4) Windows Genuine Advantage falsely accuses millions (…”under 1%”…)
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070124-8690.html

I’d Pay …

In reply to What are you smokin’, Smoking Man?

… to see Gates hug drawn and quartered so the fanboy epithet is a bit misused here.

I’m just the eternal pessimist and I am trying to imagine the route Gates and his legal team are going to take now.

He’s done everything else legal and illegal over the years so it’s not too hard of a stretch to see him taking what he has been publishing (code patent violations) and making them work for him.

M$ has built practically nothing on merit having ripped off most of their good stuff and failed miserably with their ‘innovation’ (Remember active x?).

So … what do you think the boys at the mighty sloth are going to do to stave off the threat since coding skill seems out of the question????

Easy Answer

In reply to I’d Pay …

Make Win FS work after all M$ has only been promising this File System since NT3.5 so after something like 12 years they should be getting somewhat close to having a working prototype. :^0

Col

Working Prototype

In reply to Easy Answer

They could not steal or rip one in 12 years… maybe that is why they cant get one?

Yeppers I remember the Active X

In reply to I’d Pay …

What a joke it was I am glad I did not have it installed just had to get stuff to block it . .
I hope to be totally away from MS in 2 months and only have to run the MS stuff from inside Linux using VMware-server for some Items which do not have drivers or programs which work inside of Linux YET ! ! . . Its why I got the Book from Linux Central to make drivers for Linux for the two items that are seen by Linux but it does not know how to run them ( no drivers yet )

Perhaps you are…

In reply to I’d Pay …

.
[b][i]”…I’d Pay to see Gates hug drawn and quartered so the fanboy epithet is a bit misused here…”[/i][/b]

Your words that I responded to were very fanboy-like. Perhaps you are just mistaken about some things here and not an MS fanboy after all. If so, I apologize. Better to be mistaken (all of us are from time to time) than a fanboy! :^0

[b][i]”…He’s done everything else legal and illegal over the years so it’s not too hard of a stretch to see him taking what he has been publishing (code patent violations) and making them work for him…”[/i][/b]

True. The question is, will he succeed in abusing the patent system and be able to use it to defeat Linux? I say no. Confidently. Linux is here to stay.

[b][i]”…So … what do you think the boys at the mighty sloth are going to do to stave off the threat since coding skill seems out of the question????…”[/i][/b]

I don’t think Microsoft can stave off the Linux desktop threat except by [u]winning[/u] customers affections. Microsoft has never been very good at that, so I am pessimistic about this notion. WGA capricious de-activation is one of the stupidest things I have ever seen a major corporation do. EVER! I hate WGA capricious de-activation so much that I have switched from Windows to Linux on my desktop. I am going to invest in Linux going forward. And, I am not alone in this.

Linux servers are already #1 and Windows is #2. Desktops are next, but it is unclear how far Linux will go on the desktop. Microsoft is going to lose some (more) market share in the coming years. Desktop Linux is already being adopted outside the U.S. in large numbers. Now it is starting to grow noticeably inside the U.S. This is a great thing as everyone will benefit, even Windows users. It will put pressure on Microsoft to provide a great product instead of putting so much effort into manipulating customers, “partners”, and competitors.

However, I don’t think it will be enough. Microsoft has never shown any orientation toward customers. I think the only thing that would make them focus on customers, instead of on themselves, is for Windows desktop market share to drop to 50%. Then, stockholders would finally GET Steve Ballmer’s head (1)(2), competent professional management would be brought in, and there would be positive internal corporate change.

So, if you want a good Microsoft to emerge, one that is WORTHY of your $44 BILLION in spending each year, you should pray every night for Linux and Mac OS X to take 50% of the market away from Microsoft. Then, and only then, will Microsoft focus on customers and not on themselves.

—————————

(1) Steve Ballmer CEO of Microsoft???

(2) Steve Ballmer vs. Tux

edit: clarifications, expansions

ActiveX

In reply to I’d Pay …

I think ActiveX is pretty nice for automating tasks in MS Office ( e.g. create an instance of a Office doc and work with it ). You should try it out.

Active X

In reply to ActiveX

What does the ‘X’ stand for?

good question

In reply to Active X

It probably stands for one (or more) of the following:

1. Xtension
2. Xtreme
3. X-marketing
4. OLE Automation
5. Carve an X into your head.
6. “We’ll replace the X with something appropriate by the time it goes into production. What’s that? It’s already in production? Well, I guess ActiveX works as a name, then.”

Thats why I left it alone !

In reply to good question

Its already out there NAMED by MS of course as they had no ideal as to what to name it and [b]”X”[/b] sounded good to them ! !
Oh yeah here is link to XP Pro w/SP2 under $100.00 like even under $90.00 . . Down to just over $80.00 Next month I expect to see maybe $60 or $55 maybe . .
http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=5214608/mode=email118_pop1

Must be its collecting dust ? hummmmmm ?

ActiveX for automation

In reply to ActiveX

Considering ActiveX is just a synonym for “OLE Automation”, it makes sense it would be useful for automation. Of course, real ActiveX programming is somewhat like picking your nose with a three-inch stiletto — not only painful and messy, but unfit for polite company, too.

Apotheon: ActiveX…

In reply to ActiveX

What then would you consider a good alternative to ActiveX?

using a different application

In reply to Apotheon: ActiveX…

I, personally, would use a different application — one that integrates well with decent dynamic high-level languages like Ruby and Perl. Your mileage may vary.

A friend of mine once said that the only thing worse than doing programming for the X Window System was doing programming for the MS Windows GUI. That doesn’t mean that programming for the X Window System should necessarily be avoided in favor of an alternative — sometimes there’s no practical alternative. It just means that, when you have to do it, it sucks. The same might be true of ActiveX.

Of course, I never find myself having to do any ActiveX development, so I have a pretty hard time imagining cases where it cannot be avoided. I achieve quite a bit of automation quite easily using other means — on free unix-like systems.

NEWS FLASH !

In reply to using a different application

Vista is on its way out !

http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=146&tag=nl.e550

Just reading about it now

Not so much

In reply to LOL …

“Since the lion’s share of the market is still owned by M$ do you think that any of the documents you share are based on some format that is not based in what M$ created???”

The majority of the desktop market is controlled by MS, but the majority of the server market is not…by a long shot.

My documents are based on XML, which is a nice universal standard and can be opened by anything. As a bonus, most of MY documents that aren’t saved as XML, are either in ODF (which is XML any friggin’ way), text, or PDF.

So, it doesn’t matter if MS created a format or not to me, I can port my documents anywhere.

“Does Star Office, Open Office or any other ‘Offices’ including the new Google online version have a proprietary format that only they can use and that allow you to distribute to the rest of the world and be understood?”

Nope, the way it should be.

“No … you’re going to find that even the most ardent fanboy of any computing realm is forced to toe the M$ line or be relegated to oblivion when the majority of the world’s conputer users can’t understand what you send them.”

Eh? ODF is supported by MS now, because people NEED that portability.

“You’re as much Gates’s beatch as the rest of us.”

Nope. My home machine runs FC4 ONLY. My work laptop runs XP, but it’s not really used. Because of what I do, I use VMWare to use multiple OSs, XP is just the host OS.

“Not your fault … not my fault however there were a couple of lawsuits several years back that MIGHT have remedied the situation but the USA supreme court dropped the ball.”

Can’t argue. However, the EU isn’t too happy with MS right now, neither is China, and neither is India…so I think MS is following the IBM model of screwing up…they’re losing their customer base because they are screwing the consumer.

“Now, I didn’t say the M$ cases would have any merit however, they have an amazing cash base and simply by entering into litigation they can put the offices that pump out products like Ubuntu, Red Hat, Mandriva and all the rest on the ropes in no time flat and then extend the litigation before decisions are reached forcing them into chapter 11.”

What is Linux though? It isn’t a company. Red Hat could just pop up as Blue Hat, Ubuntu could change to Buntu, and so on…You can’t put the cat back in the bag…

“Who cares if they win after they have declared bankruptcy?”

Because Linux is not a company it can’t go bankrupt.

“Think of the case of The USA vs. Microsoft for god’s sake. They extended that litigation for years and had it been anyone other than the US government, they would have bankrupted the complaintant.”

True, but the honest truth is that MS can’t stay in litigation forever all over the world…but that’s what’s happening. Something is going to give, and it’s going to MS…the stake holders are pissed.

“All the decisions have been ignored but I think the US government realizes that even THEY can not stand up to M$.”

Not so much…MS is hurting right now…with lackluster Vista and Office 07 sales and with all kinds of problems in the EU, the stock is only worth about $30/share. The worst part, for MS, is that the stake holders are pretty unhappy with MS…so that’s where we are going to really see the change happen.

“So what are Ubuntu, Mandriva, Red Hat and all the rest going to do when faced with the Gates legal army and their delaying tactics?”

Move on to be another distro.

“You’re aware that all they need is an injunction to stop distribution until the case is settled and they will hunt down anyone who shares a copy of Linux online just like that poor kid who figured out the encryption codes for DVD’s or violators of the DMCA.”

Impossible….I create a “new” kernel by adding a little code and call it garvnix…Linux is still be shared around the world.

Plus, Linux is nothing like DMCA or DRM crap, you can’t stop the sharing of GPLed code.

“Remember … several years have passed and M$ is even more powerful now than when the US and the EU took them on in court.”

Not so much. They are losing market share and Ballmer is pissing off the stake holders…So, give it a year and we’ll see where MS really stands.

Only true in the US

In reply to LOL …

The EU has forced M$ to produce a different version of Windows without Media Player in it for sale in Europe this is now not several years ago. M$ is currently in a battle with the EU over how much it is charging companies to have access to parts of it’s code so that they can develop software that will run on the M$ Platform. M$ only avoided a $4.4 Million per day fine by sliding in an 11 hour bid to ask for clarification of the EU Courts Ruling and this was 3 months ago. M$ is not only loosing the fight they are loosing Share Holders the current M$ share Price has been dropping for some time now and has not improved with the release of Vista and is currently no where near the highs that it used to be at.

So the answer is that the Big Business who are in the Financial Institutions no longer see M$ Shares as the ones to have as M$ has not only killed and eaten the Goose that laid the [b]Golden Egg[/b] they have brought out another one and insisted that it’s the same one that they ate 3 years ago.

As for as the US litigation against M$ went M$ lost and it was only a change in administration that prevented M$ being broken up into component companies totally separated from each other and competing with each other. With the US Legal & Government System there is something to be said for dragging out Literation as you get a new Administration who you have not PISSED OFF or who simply refuse to follow the lead of the previous one because they want to be seen as different so they ignore the US Courts.

But even then if M$ was actually to get an injunction in the US it would only apply to the US and not the World in General so while it may cause more companies to move [b]Off Shore[/b] that’s about all the effect that it would have and it wouldn’t prevent a Web Site hosted in any other country from offering the ability to download copies of the different Linux’s that are available. So Red Hat becomes White Hat and is based in the Caymans so what? It’s only hurting the US and attempting to force all the big server farms to M$ products is a waste of time. Remember when M$ bought Hot Mail and attempted to run the service on Windows Based Servers?

That was M$’s first attempt at producing a really scalable Sever Product and while 2003 was much better than anything prior it’s still not in the same league as Unix or Linux are running the Big Server Farms. I would just love to see M$ explaining to the masses in the US why they are unable to access their funds because the banks have been forced to stop using Open Source OS and that of course would dry up the bulk of M$ funds as well because they couldn’t access their own money from the banks let alone any one else so they would immediately kill off most of the business in the US not even the Government would be able to pay it’s workers or contractors so just who would end up in Chapter 11? That one is easy the Entire Country!

Interesting isn’t it an Injunction brought about by M$ kills off M$ and at that point the US Government would have to step in and overturn the Courts as the entire country would cease to be anything but a joke and Osman/Bill Gates would have got his way by crippling the entire country. :^0

Interesting thought but I can not see it happening. 😀

Col

Good post, TE2

In reply to Ok. Since you asked, here is what I think…

Like you, I believe MS could not make a case that would stick.
Unfortunately, that’s never stopped them before.

The staff of a computer magazine I used to edit used to joke that MS’s legal department was partly funded by both its marketing and R&D budgets. Legal battles have almost always been a competitive tool for MS, whether the issue had merit or not.

I doubt that MS would sue customers. Instead, if they sued, it would be those responsible for distributing the various Linux flavors — generally small organizations with little money to spend on litigation, and therefore little staying power.

By the standards of the Darwinian Shark Tank that is the MS executive suite, this is sane and reasonable behavior.

(Also drafted on a Linux machine using gedit. Don’t see much Windows around here any more…)

Thanks! (NT)

In reply to Good post, TE2

.

Ancient Civilisations and others…

In reply to Ok. Since you asked, here is what I think…

I have read some of these posts… and civilisations like the Greek, Roman, Egyptian, and more recently, British Empires… all thought they were invinicible… but they are gone… as I am sure that M$ empire will be… it is inevitable.

I read that M$ are screwing the customer over… I agree… but for some, even though tehy would like to move, it becomes an impossibility due to one thing or another.

M$ making all these advances… but I bet that if I was to put a technical manual as I have have done in the past into the very latest version of office, it would get corrupted. Write a word document using numbered and bullet pointed lists, with outline numbering… and after 30 or so pages it will corrupt. This is just one thing… but it may be said the Word is not meant for this… I do not see why it should not be used for this… but its my opinion. I do realise that there are other alternatives, assuming one can afford them.

I think M$ lost its focus… and reverted to original tactics… stealing Mac OS like it did when it first started.

Still, at the end of the day, its each their own…and what they prefer individually. M$ is suits me at the moment but I am not sure I will go to Vista…but I said that about XP… but I am running XP… however, it looks like Windows 2000 for me.

Thats ok I hope to be 80 %

In reply to Ancient Civilisations and others…

I hope to be 80% running Linux in the next 2 months as I now have VMware-server for Linux and will only run windows for stuff I can not run in Linux Directly . . Like the ADS Tech DVD Express and the Verizon USB720 BroadBand Modem
And after I get all that running right I will make a driver for Linux as I have the book now to make Drivers for Linux ( it runs you back and forth I noticed to this chapter and to that one ) Then turn it loose for the rest of the Linux world to use and maybe sell it to the Companies whom were to lazy to make a driver for Linux for their hardware

I have Code Weavers Pro added to run MS stuff as some of my customers want things done in MS Office Pro programs YET !

I still got to import the Address book and E-mail for Thunderbird and book marks and other FireFox Items so this ones up to date . . Then I can stop running this MS 2000 Pro on its own

Rubbish

In reply to Why do you think …

“Why do you think one of the other blogs is all about M$ claiming that open source violates 200 and some odd patents???”

MS is getting desperate and Ballmer runs the company. You do realize that Ballmer is stuck in the 80’s business model and that he’s always wanted MS to be just like IBM.

“They are preparing for the day when they have to sue Linux to put them out of business.”

How do you sue Linux? The distros you can sue, the reality is that it is a losing proposition for MS and they know it.

“M$ owns you and your computer.”

Not my personal stuff. Hell, most companies are starting to look past their MS only business model and looking more towards *nix as well as Windows.

“They have already set up the demise of Linux for when they become a threat.”

Too late. The Linux cat is out of the bag. MS is in deep doo doo and they know it. They lost a HUGE point of revenue when the screwed up the China deal. MS doesn’t know where to go next…so they are making crap up.

Can I borrow this one

In reply to Rubbish

I love putting stuff on my web site to stick it to M$ . .
Oh yeah did you get the up grade to the new apple browser for PC’s runs a bit faster now ! . .
I only got 256 meg video card on the low end for it to run good on or so it says in the spec’s
Guess I should up grade to a 512 meg card so no one can say I do not have enough memory on my video card . . I guess it would make it easier to do some video stuff any way . .

An actual Windows Vista WGA re-activation call to BANGALORE!! :^0

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

.
Actual Windows Vista WGA re-activation call to Microsoft in BANGALORE!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fWpV_6Y_vY&mode=related&search=

Can I borrow that ?

In reply to An actual Windows Vista WGA re-activation call to BANGALORE!! :^0

I would like to post it on my web site to make fun of Windows users . . and convert them to ( maybe ) Linux users and add it to my computers geek page 😉 sorta sitting here giggling about it 🙂

Sure! (NT)

In reply to Can I borrow that ?

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Another great reason to like Ubuntu

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

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[i]”…We have declined to discuss any agreement with Microsoft under the threat of unspecified patent infringements…”[/i] —– Mark Shuttleworth, Canonical founder and CEO (distributor of the Ubuntu and Kubuntu Linux distributions (3) )

Translation: Hey Microsoft! Put up or shut up! :^0

[b]Bravo! Bravo![/b]

This is just another great reason to like Ubuntu and Kubuntu (1). With this position, you can be sure that Canonical will NEVER sign a deal with Microsoft. Why? Because Microsoft is never going to put their lame patent claims to the test.

Ubuntu is a Linux distribution you can rely on. And, Mark Shuttleworth is my kind of man (2).

[b]Then, why are companies making deals with Microsoft?[/b]

Q: Why are Novell, Xandros, and Linspire (aka “the weasels”) making these patent deals with Microsoft?

A: Because they are weak and they are trying to take advantage of the Microsoft FUD campaign that is attempting to drive Linux customers to “the weasels” like cattle (do you chew cud and go “moo”?). Novell got a HUGE up front cash payment from Microsoft that they desperately needed. Xandros and Linspire are trying to make a profitable business out of selling Linux.

[b]The disgusting Microsoft patent FUD campaign is illegitimate — Don’t fall for it[/b]

You should be particularly offended that Microsoft is trying to frighten you into buying Windows, or buying Linux only from vendors that funnel revenues to Microsoft. I know I am. Linux was legitimately developed by OSS developers. It was not “cloned” from Microsoft. It’s not the “Windows PC”, it’s the “IBM PC”. And, it’s [u]my[/u] PC. Microsoft clearly forgets this.

This alone should be reason enough to tell Microsoft to buzz off. There are plenty of other reasons.

If you desire to break free of Microsoft and Windows tyranny, I hope you can, and I hope you do.

All the best.

—————————————–

(1) No Microsoft Patent Deal for Ubuntu
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2147347,00.asp

(2) Mark Shuttleworth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Shuttleworth

(3) Ubuntu and Kubuntu
http://www.ubuntu.com
http://www.kubuntu.com

re: “the weasels”

In reply to Another great reason to like Ubuntu

“[i]Novell, Xandros, and Linspire (aka ‘the weasels’)[/i]”

What’s really going on here should be pretty obvious:

Xandros and Linspire are both companies that started selling Linux because their founders figured that free (as in beer) software would provide a very low-overhead way to get into the business of selling stuff for real money. In other words, they’re companies that wanted to get something for nothing.

Novell is a company that bought its way into a moderately successful business that was already selling Linux, and did so as a way to energize its flagging business and recover from disastrous market failure. In other words, it’s a company that wanted built-in market credibility and a bolt-on crusade to make it relevant in the enterprise computing market again, without the messy risk of trying to figure out how to build that sort of market credibility from scratch. It didn’t want something for nothing, exactly, but it certainly wanted a sort of “get rich quick scheme” approach to getting its mojo back.

What do these three companies really have in common, then? It’s not Linux so much — that’s just a superficial similarity. The real commonality between them is that they don’t care about open source software as a business model and as a development model as much as they care about what the current state of open source development [b]can do for them[/b]. As a result, they will do things (such as signing these deals with Microsoft) that may be a betrayal of core business values for other companies like Red Hat, the pre-Novell SUSE, and Mandriva.

Novell is far more likely to swing back the other way, because a large part of what it finds valuable in its Linux business is the credibility it gains from its new line of business. That credibility is predicated in no small part on its credibility with the open source community — which frowns on Microsoft deals for obvious reasons. Xandros and Linspire (especially Linspire), on the other hand, are pretty much small-time sociopaths who don’t give a hot damn what kind of community reputation they have. They’ll grasp at any straw that might provide improved market share, especially since they weren’t doing so great with the open source community orthodoxy in the first place. Microsoft looks like the direction to go for that sort of expansion of market penetration and mindshare.

In other words, Novell has to maintain a delicate balance in its PR game, but Linspire and Xandros just have to sell more software, where their only likely growth markets are people who aren’t already Linux users. As such, Linspire and Xandros care more about getting known in Microsoft’s circles than in those of the Linux community.

I guess the three of them might be more like two weasels and a skunk.

Linspire had to change name

In reply to re: “the weasels”

Why they would do any deals with MS is a wonder

After they changed their name over here in the USA as it was to close to Windows name

“Lindows” and might confuse people haha actually it was making a big dent in WINDOWS clients so MS got bent out of shape and sued as the name was to close to Windows . .
Kinda a P- ss poor reason to sue but since its MS anything will do and only thing they could come up with . . 🙁
Some Liberal judge should have been shot for his decission on that one !
That should have thrown out of court and MS told to go blow it out there ahummm bottom 😉

YESSSSSSS !

In reply to Another great reason to like Ubuntu

I knew that MS was full of bull she- – It ! With the threats of doing anything as they were not in court yet . .Can alway tell a BS person the got zero zip nada to back it up . . Aw poor Gates . .

MS and FUD

In reply to Another great reason to like Ubuntu

MS has been using FUD very successfully for almost three decades. TechExec2 probably remembers MS’s campaign against OS/2 (an OS I loved, by the way, and used for years in the 1990s). MS went from IBM’s partner to predator in about a month.

So the patent threats are neither surprising nor new. MS has long used any lever available to intimidate or absorb competitors.

This time should be different since the Open Source community is fueled by a lack of respect for MS tactics and the dismal quality of its products. It is also highly decentralized, making lawsuits a less powerful weapon than heretofore.

Combine that with the highly evolved state of the various Linux distros, the fact that quality Linux applications are now widely available, and the MS business model is in danger. In the face of the Open Source movement, MS has greatly weakened itself by selling shoddy product and using questionable ethics.

As I posted here a while back, clumsy, resource hungry, bloated Windows and its applications really have no unique reason to exist any longer. Why pay for second rate software when products with superior performance and security are available free — and without WGA hassles.

I agree 1,000 percent

In reply to MS and FUD

MS has out lived its products and its shody OS’s it puts out
I keep hammering at people to go to Linux as it see’s all of their hardware and does not blink like windows does for any WGA problems or Malware Problems . .
I have to run Win 2K inside of Linux to get on line ( sees the USB720 Verizon Modem software ) Linux see’s the hard ware just does not have a driver yet ( I am working on that part ) Looks like a bit of work 🙁 !
And since I own Code Weavers Pro I added my games to Linux and Quicken so I can keep my Account files from running away . . Makes life a lot easier now . .

And for those who think Linux is wimpy…

In reply to Another great reason to like Ubuntu

Here’s a little news from the aerospace community:

Linux in space, Windows not picked

Aerospace applications define the term “mission critical,” so it is safe to infer that Linux must be pretty solid if Honeywell is selecting it for a computer system designed for future “game changing” space exploration applications–NASA’s Dependable Multiprocessor. One would *think* that a “more mature” OS (say one made in Washington state) might get the nod, but no.

Full story at:

http://www.spacemart.com/reports/Wind_River_Carrier_Grade_Linux_Goes_To_Space_999.html

Key paragraph:
“Wind River Systems has been selected by Honeywell Aerospace to support the development of NASA”s New Millennium Program Space Technology 8 (ST8) Dependable Multiprocessor. The contract marks the first time a Linux platform has been selected by Honeywell for a space mission. Honeywell Aerospace is the prime contractor for NASA”s ST8 Dependable Multiprocessor project.”

This shows how Linux threatens MS well beyond the desktop.

Linux v Microsoft

In reply to And for those who think Linux is wimpy…

According M$, Linux is the better OS…

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Murphy/?p=459

http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/business/0,39044229,39157817,00.htm

And Microsoft does not refute arguments that Linux is better…

http://mozillaquest.com/Linux_News03/HP-Mandrake-Linux-Desktop-PC-2_Story01.html

I was concerned

In reply to Linux v Microsoft

Thank you for clearing that up. I was really concerned as to which OS was better. Ok, I really don’t care, as long as it does what I want. But there has to be someone on Earth who cared. They are very thankful.

This will make M$ jump sideways

In reply to Linux v Microsoft

The people at NSA have gone LINUX ! 🙂
[/b]http://www.spacemart.com/reports/Wind_River_Carrier_Grade_Linux_Goes_To_Space_999.html[/b]

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS ! 🙂

Looking more closely . . .

In reply to Linux v Microsoft

Those benchmarks show FreeBSD as the clear winner (with the possible exception of Singularity — which, of course, doesn’t actually exist as a viable system yet), even beating Linux fairly handily. Of course, high-load performance benchmarks have been showing FreeBSD as the clear winner for a long time. It didn’t take Microsoft trying to prove the leetness of Singularity to show evidence of that.

As Paul Murphy pointed out, Microsoft is again trying to stack the deck in its own favor when providing comparison benchmarks. Those numbers for Linux and FreeBSD should be much better in some cases. Using MS Windows-style programming techniques to try to compare performance between the free unices and MS Windows just proves that MS Windows is built around a crappy model — and [b]still[/b] doesn’t perform as well, within that model, as free unices, even though that’s the software architecture model for which MS Windows was designed!

THAT will make M$ jump for joy

In reply to And for those who think Linux is wimpy…

All I can do is sit here and laugh a lot about it 🙂
Aw Jee Poor M$ must have done a few back flips and pulled on their hair and screamed a lot 🙂
News Like that Make my DAY !

I will add that link to my Computer Geeks page just to push M$’s buttons a bit more !
God I love it

I can see it now…

In reply to And for those who think Linux is wimpy…

If they ran Windows, I can see it now…

“…Uhh Houston? We’ve got a problem…”

:^0

Ahumm Maybe the Russians had M$

In reply to I can see it now…

Since they had this big problem it sounded like a WGA Problem for those 2 days 🙂
I would sit here and Laugh for ever it it were to be . . and get shut down by a WGA problem too 🙂 sitting here giggling about it now . .

Shouldn’t that be…

In reply to I can see it now…

“…Ah Bangelore, we have a problem”? 🙂

Cackle, cackle…

Exactly! :^0

In reply to Shouldn’t that be…

It’s only a matter of time before we hear about very public Windows systems shutting down because WGA thinks “Windows is not genuine”. Systems on the Space Shuttle. Systems on a Navy Aircraft Carrier right in the middle of a war. Airline reservation systems. Emergency 911 systems. Etc.

. . . but it *is* wimpy!

In reply to And for those who think Linux is wimpy…

Okay, so it’s great and powerful compared to MS Windows — but how difficult is that? It’s like saying a chicken is highly intelligent compared to a nematode.

WIMPY

In reply to . . . but it *is* wimpy!

…I kinda thought WIMP stood for “window, icon, menu, pointing device”… hence WIMPY…

Have you seen Ubuntu lately?

In reply to WIMPY

How much more “Window, Icon, Menu, Pointing device” can you get with a non-MS operating system than Ubuntu?

What bothers me about Windows is…

In reply to Have you seen Ubuntu lately?

…not the GUI paradigm, but what lies behind it: MS’s design philosophy, its management, and its implementation in code. Nobody at MS seems to have read The Mythical Man Day, or bothered with Knuth’s books. If they had they would run a more efficient code factory and have a leaner, more dependable product line.

By contrast, the Unix/Linux open community, not market driven, with its ‘swarm of individuals’ approach and internal self-criticism seems to be in a continual process of optimization. Things just steadily improve. At MS, things get more complex, bulkier, then wheels begin falling off.

Ergo, I’m much more comfortable with ‘wimpy’ Linux than ‘wimpy’ Windows. And I can sleep in on Patch Tuesdays.’

understood

In reply to What bothers me about Windows is…

“[i]Ergo, I’m much more comfortable with ‘wimpy’ Linux than ‘wimpy’ Windows. And I can sleep in on Patch Tuesdays.'[/i]”

I would be, too. In fact, I was for several years. I’ve just moved on to an OS that I like even more than any Linux distribution.

That’s what makes it so good for Windows Users

In reply to Have you seen Ubuntu lately?

Though it’s no where near as secure as it should be out of the box as most of the other offerings are.

From my prospective it works well and is easy to understand after all my 78 year old Mother can use it without a problem and isn’t constantly telling me that it’s stupid to click on start to shut down the computer. 😀

On the bad side it’s a single Disc installation and lacks quite a lot of what should be available and doesn’t have a Root Account which I’m still of two minds about.

When setup correctly a Root account is fairly difficult to break into where as user accounts are easier to crack and as most of the nasty people attempt to crack the User Accounts this gives them access to too much in Ubuntu for my liking. But maybe that’s just me and I prefer the multi Disc Installs were I have more control over what goes onto the HDD/s.

Col

the benefits of Ubuntu, not so much the difficulties

In reply to That’s what makes it so good for Windows Users

Maybe you should give PC-BSD a look.

I might just try…

In reply to That’s what makes it so good for Windows Users

…free BSD. I am not too comfortable with the way Ubuntu handles root (sic) accounts. And I’ve got a hundred Gigs or so available, so this weekend, I might just download free BSD and give it a test drive.
Gotta admit, though, that I’m impressed with Ubuntu’s ease of installation and admin.
Anyway, thanks for the suggestion. I’ll report back…

I’d like to know how it goes.

In reply to That’s what makes it so good for Windows Users

Please keep us updated on your experience with FreeBSD (or with PC-BSD if you decide to go that route for ease of setup).

Shuttleworth tells all…

In reply to Another great reason to like Ubuntu

Here’s Shuttleworth’s complete explanation of the situation and his opinions (from his blog).

Bravo, Shuttleworth!

No negotiations with Microsoft in progress

2 Items of good news !

In reply to Shuttleworth tells all…

[b] WOW must be a day to drink some brandy 2 real good news Items back to back [/b]

RE: Another great reason to like Ubuntu

In reply to Another great reason to like Ubuntu

Hmm, why Ubuntu? This is also a great reason to like Apple OS X.

It’s OK to be promiscuous :^0

In reply to RE: Another great reason to like Ubuntu

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My post was just noting another reason to like Ubuntu (and dislike Suse, Xandros, and Linspire). It’s quite alright to be promiscuous and like more than one. I do. I like Ubuntu. I also like Mac OS X. My current primary OS is Fedora 6.

However, if you’re going to do it with Vista, I recommend you practice safer computing :^0 . Use the best protection you can find :p . That prissy little Vista is a pretty one, but she’s got questionable virtue. She’s got a huge appetite for powerful hardware :0 . She demands a big hard drive and lots of cache. And, she won’t give you her best unless you’re well equipped (that’s what I hear…haven’t had that problem myself :^0 ). She claims to be secure and trustworthy and says all the right things. But, truth be told, she secretly lets strangers in the back door whenever you’re not looking :0 . And, she’s a little psychotic. One minute she likes you and everything is cool B-) . The next minute she hysterically screams how ingenuine you are and refuses to talk to you :^0 . Of course, you can get on her good side again if you give her your credit card ]:) .

Beotch!

:^0

Promiscuity…

In reply to It’s OK to be promiscuous :^0

Therein lies a good description of Windows in general, not just Vista 😀

Exactly right! (NT)

In reply to Promiscuity…

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a better idea

In reply to Another great reason to like Ubuntu

Move over Ubacon (err, Ubuntu, I mean): make room for [url=http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/pc-bsd-a-24-hour-test-drive.ars][b]something meatier[/b][/url].

I never thought I would see the day…

In reply to a better idea

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I never thought I would see the day when apo would bad mouth Linux! :0

I would not have chosen Ubungee, Kubungee, and Xubungee as product names :^0 . But I don’t hail from South Africa like Mark does.

I intend to try out the PC-BSD CDs I downloaded when I get a chance. When I do, I will find out why some people prefer Free BSD.

Well . . .

In reply to I never thought I would see the day…

Linux is still a pretty good OS. It has some advantages over the *BSD OSes, but it also has some disadvantages — and, frankly, I [b]never[/b] liked the Ubuntu family much. PC-BSD seems to provide basically all of the benefits Ubuntu does over other Linux distros, but without the negative effects introduced by the way Ubuntu is put together, so PC-BSD gets my vote.

Don’t know yet got to load it

In reply to Well . . .

I spent 3 hours downloading the 2 Disk ISO’s of FreeBSD so now I can test it and see how hard it is to destroy it . .
I do that to be able to sell it to others and know how to fix the stuff they can destroy PLUS be able to say its got this and that stuff . .
Ubuntu was really good had lots of stuff to use and took some real work to tear it apart . .
And wasn’t to hard to fix . .
I now have Unbuntu, Linux 2007, Xandros, PCLinuxOS, Puppy, Susie, Fedrora, and a live cd of Knoppix to play with opps forgot Linspire 5.0 so I got most of them to test and say this has what and how hard it is to destroy . . I like 4 of them as they have a lot of stuff for the people to use and they are beyond most idiots to destroy . . ( oops clients ) 😉 you know its still 102 and its after 7PM 🙁 And there is nothing on TV tonight . .

alternative OS`s

In reply to Don’t know yet got to load it

Hi, Jackie40d….please let me know what you think of the distros you have tried. I am not experienced with linux, but have been trying to learn; really want to know what a more technically inclined person thinks about the different flavors.

Ok here they are in order

In reply to alternative OS`s

1. Linux 2007 has tons of stuff in it for users and does the MS items in the Open Office add Code Weavers Pro and you can load the real MS Office into it . . and things like Quicken and some games
2. Unbuntu Fawn 7.02 I think Runs really good has the open office in it also and a ton of games came with it hard for the Average person to kill it
3. PCLinuxOS toss up between this and Puppy
4. If your got real NEWBIES that are going to operate the computer install Linspire 5.0 its got a help file which Ronald ( one of my customers ) comes by and makes a payment for his computer and raves how it takes him thru EVERY thing he want to do on the computer ! He has never used a computer before . . THE TOTAL newbie virgin type . .
He does not have to worry about patch Tuesday and the other junk windows has like WGA problems AND its got a ton of stuff for it at the linspire site for other programs / Applications . .

I have not got Debian ( new one on 3 DVD’s ) in a computer yet to see how hard it is to destroy, and I just got FreeBSD downloaded today So I have not had a chance to see how much dammange a dummy could do to it and what it takes to put it back together . .

This enough Information ?

Linux 2007 . . . ?

In reply to alternative OS`s

What the heck is “Linux 2007”? You keep talking about it, but I don’t think anyone knows what you mean. Are you talking about Mandriva Linux 2007? Are you talking about SAM Linux 2007? Are you talking about PCLinuxOS 2007? What are you talking about?

Serious question

In reply to Well . . .

You obviously have more experience with these OSs than I do (I am only *really* familiar with three Linux distros), so I’m curious about your opinion of the downside of Ubuntu, especially relative to BSD (with which I have no familiarity at all). So where are the creaky joints in how Ubuntu is put together? I’ve got to confess that I find Ubuntu a great desktop OS from both the installation and admin perspectives. Speed and ease of use are big deals with me, and frankly, I had enough of the command line years ago, and avoid it when I can.

Top 10 (+1) Creaky Joints (in no particular order)

In reply to Serious question

Ubuntu has a number of issues that I rather dislike:

1. There seems to be less stability than I’m used to from its parent, Debian — which is, in turn, less stable than FreeBSD, in my experience.

2. It doesn’t inherit Debian’s massive package archives — it has its own, smaller, archives, with incompatibilities in many of the major package formats (different dependencies, et cetera). This is probably a big part of the reason for the reduced stability, too. Meanwhile, PC-BSD is actually a direct copy of FreeBSD with a different installer and some extra stuff added to it, making it entirely compatible with its parent OS.

3. Dependencies are kinda chewed up in Ubuntu packages. Packages tend to be put together with many more dependencies among other packages — making it exceedingly difficult at times to run only what you really want, and not a bunch of unrelated stuff that in Ubuntu comes with it. Because PC-BSD just uses FreeBSD software plus the PBI system, it doesn’t have that problem so much.

4. Being a Linux distribution, Ubuntu has a much more haphazard feel to it than FreeBSD. There’s more a sense of consistency in the way FreeBSD is put together. I remember reading something to that effect a while before I tried FreeBSD seriously and thinking it sounded like biased advocacy BS, but now that I’ve been using FreeBSD as my primary OS for a while I’ve got to say that I understand the meaning of that statement. I just wish it was easier to express.

5. FreeBSD’s ports tree has many, [b]many[/b] more pieces of software available in it than are in Ubuntu’s official APT archives.

6. A lot of stuff is easier to configure in FreeBSD than in any Linux distribution I’ve seen (particularly sound devices, supported wireless network adapters, APM/ACPI, and CUPS, for instance).

7. I’ve never been so pleased with the documentation for an OS. Holy cow. I thought Debian’s documentation was good, but it can’t hold a candle to FreeBSD’s. In fact, the FreeBSD handbook is so thorough and useful that it’s even helpful for working with Linux (though obviously not nearly as helpful as it is for working with FreeBSD).

8. Good friggin’ luck installing from source on Ubuntu without causing conflicts with the APT system.

9. Ubuntu’s security model (no root, universal sudo access, zero or poor firewall configuration, too many services running, et cetera) is famously questionable.

10. The name is easier for native English speakers to pronounce and to remember how to spell, and the logo (the Beastie mascot) is cooler.

One more bonus item:

11. It’s a bit like cheating. You get more geek cred for using FreeBSD than any Linux distribution with the possible exception of something like Linux From Scratch, or [b]maybe[/b] Slackware — but overall it’s easier to manage than Linux. Where’s the downside?

There are downsides, of course, but you didn’t ask for those.

Not 100% Accurate

In reply to Top 10 (+1) Creaky Joints (in no particular order)

5. FreeBSD’s ports tree has many, many more pieces of software available in it than are in Ubuntu’s official APT archives.

Quantity is more important than quality.

6. A lot of stuff is easier to configure in FreeBSD than in any Linux distribution I’ve seen (particularly sound devices, supported wireless network adapters, APM/ACPI, and CUPS, for instance).

None of my printers are supported in FreeBSD, but they are in Linux. How is that easier?

Remember, just because it works fine in your computer(s), doesn’t mean it does for anyone else. And there are a lot of other computers out there. Lots.

Great list apo…

In reply to Top 10 (+1) Creaky Joints (in no particular order)

.
[b][i]”…9. Ubuntu’s security model (no root, universal sudo access…”[/i][/b]

I’ve played with Kubuntu 7.04 Feisty Fawn a little. If I understand it correctly, in the default configuration, only those users who are designated as “administrators” (those in the “admin” Unix group) are allowed to use sudo and run commands as root. Normal users would not be “administrators” and would not be allowed to use sudo or use the administrator-only functions in the GUI (click the “Administrator” button). So, Ubuntu’s model essentially allows there to be multiple administrator users that can do what only root can do on Fedora for example. And, if you don’t set up regular users as administrators there is no added security weakness that might be exploited via a weak user password for example.

Also, it is a simple matter to add a password to the root user and “activate” the root account if you want to be able to sign in directly as root as in Fedora.

Am I correct? Thanks.

Thanks and a request

In reply to Top 10 (+1) Creaky Joints (in no particular order)

Great list. I’ve already had misgivings about some of these, especially number nine. And, you’re right, I didn’t ask about the downside of BSD, but I should have. Wanna do it again?
Many thanks.

responses to john.gooch, TechExec2, and jbb1

In reply to Top 10 (+1) Creaky Joints (in no particular order)

[b]john.gooch:[/b]

“[i]5. FreeBSD’s ports tree has many, many more pieces of software available in it than are in Ubuntu’s official APT archives.

Quantity is more important than quality.[/i]”

Your sarcasm is obvious, and poorly targeted. FreeBSD ports are better vetted, more stable, and often better chosen than Ubuntu’s (though I admit the “better chosen” is a matter of taste). You’ve missed the mark with that comment.

“[i]6. A lot of stuff is easier to configure in FreeBSD than in any Linux distribution I’ve seen (particularly sound devices, supported wireless network adapters, APM/ACPI, and CUPS, for instance).

None of my printers are supported in FreeBSD, but they are in Linux. How is that easier?[/i]”

Notice I said nothing about printer support. Notice I said “A lot of stuff”, which in no way suggests I meant everything.

edit: Also notice that I was talking about ease of configuration, not how much hardware is supported — so your comment is completely irrelevant to what I said, anyway. Would you complain about how difficult it is to configure wireless networking on MS Windows Vista installed on a cellphone, because Vista doesn’t support the cellphone hardware? If not, perhaps you can apply the same reasoning to your statement to see how you’ve missed the mark by a pretty wide margin.

“[i]Remember, just because it works fine in your computer(s), doesn’t mean it does for anyone else. And there are a lot of other computers out there. Lots.[/i]”

You might have a point if your responses were actually targeting things I said and were appropriate to my comments. Since they’re not, you’re a bit off-base. Perhaps you should study up on some reading comprehension skills, rather than focusing on constructing straw men.

[b]TechExec2:[/b]

“[i]I’ve played with Kubuntu 7.04 Feisty Fawn a little. If I understand it correctly, in the default configuration, only those users who are designated as ‘administrators’ (those in the ‘admin’ Unix group) are allowed to use sudo and run commands as root. Normal users would not be “administrators” and would not be allowed to use sudo or use the administrator-only functions in the GUI (click the “Administrator” button).[/i]”

That assumes there [b]are[/b] non-administrator user accounts. Ubuntu encourages running with the main administrator account all the time, much like MS Windows, and in no way forces the user to even [b]have[/b] non-administrator accounts (last I checked), let alone use them.

“[i]if you don’t set up regular users as administrators there is no added security weakness that might be exploited via a weak user password for example.[/i]”

As I indicated in my previous statement in this post, last I checked that is a non-default system configuration. By the same token, one can use a standard root account configuration without universal sudo access for [b]any[/b] user account, as is normal for Linux systems — but that, too, is not a default configuration for Ubuntu. I referred to the Ubuntu security model, as it differs from the norm for Linux (and other unixlike) systems.

“[i]Am I correct? Thanks.[/i]”

You are correct. On the other hand, I’ve heard stories of people who have altered system configuration to use a standard root-based administrative security model and, later, seen the system essentially break that configuration after a software update. Caveat emptor.

[b]jbb1:[/b]

“[i]Great list. I’ve already had misgivings about some of these, especially number nine. And, you’re right, I didn’t ask about the downside of BSD, but I should have. Wanna do it again?
Many thanks.[/i]”

I’ll probably take a whack at it soon — today or tomorrow, likely. It’ll probably be a shorter list, and I’m not entirely sure that’s because the list of complaints I’ll have in the long run will be shorter. It only means that it’s shorter at this time. For instance, I haven’t used FreeBSD on as widely varied hardware yet as I have various Linux distributions, so there may be some hardware support issues that I just haven’t encountered yet, and so on.

apo: Thanks

In reply to Top 10 (+1) Creaky Joints (in no particular order)

.
Thanks for your reply.

I agree. Ubuntu should encourage administrators to create non-admin user accounts for end users. End users are notorious for creating weak passwords and therefore should not be given administrator privileges.

And, I see your points about Ubuntu’s decision to marginally weaken Unix’ historically strong security model. It wasn’t necessary. There is nothing difficult about “root” plus a “user” account. I appreciate why experienced Unix people frown on it. But, I don’t think its fatal either. A competent administrator can implement an Ubuntu desktop that is no less secure than a Fedora one (for example) by simply creating that non-admin user account. And, having the administrator account not named “root” is actually a minor advantage if it has a properly strong password (obscurity, but not more secure). Brute force attacks on root are marginally more secure on an Ubuntu system because there is no root, the most targeted account.

I appreciate your insight.

I just got FreeBSD downloaded today

In reply to Serious question

And Unbuntu Fawn is really up there as one of the 4 versions I like so I got to play with the BSD and see how it loads and runs yet . . I also got to get the new Debian ( on 3 DVD’s )
sounds like its got tons of stuff with it . . So in 2 weeks I should have most of the versions of Linux and will have played with them and see how far a average user would have to go to destroy it and how hard to re build it . . I like to know what is going on when I sell a computer to some one and know what they are going to do to it 😉

Hey TechExec2 !

In reply to I never thought I would see the day…

I downloaded the FreeBSD 4 CD’s of it And some where it will not let me add the Administrator Password . . should see the stars as you type the PW and nothing showed on the screen . . and the cursor did not move . . Bash and Ghost script were out of order some part of the files were bad . . So I never got to use it for testing and seeing how easy it would be for some user to destroy it . . Got any suggestions ? I tried installing it 4 times and got same result and used different installs for each standard and custom and expert and the default . . Helps to have 2 DVD burners too less playing around with CD’s

Suggestions

In reply to Hey TechExec2 !

.
I have never tried FreeBSD. Apotheon suggests trying PC-BSD (1) which is based on FreeBSD and is designed to be an easy-to-install and use version of FreeBSD for switchers from Windows.

I don’t have any bright ideas about why you cannot enter the admin password. You know, sometimes the stars don’t show up when you enter passwords yet the data is being entered. Be sure that’s not it. Also, if you’re trying to install on a notebook and it’s not working, try again on a basic desktop PC instead. This avoids the possibility that notebook hardware-specific problems are at play.

Bad download? Be sure to check the md5 sum of the ISO files you download. If the file fails the md5 sum, delete it and download it again. It’s got to be 100% correct or it should be discarded.

Hope this helps…

—————————————

(1) PC-BSD
http://www.pcbsd.org

re: “no stars”

In reply to Suggestions

FreeBSD does not, by default, show “stars” (asterisks, technically) or any other characters while typing at the password prompt while logging in to the system. This is in fact a security feature, as it helps reduce the likelihood of someone being able to shoulder-surf to get information for guessing your password. The fact that no “stars” are showing when you type in no way indicates that the password is not being entered.

I’ll leave you with an appropriate quote:

“My God, it’s full of stars.” – Dr. Dave Bowman, in Arthur C. Clarke’s [i]2001: A Space Odyssey[/i]

That could be but still did not

In reply to re: “no stars”

I could not sign in under user or admin. .
So 4 CD’s will go into the trash . . Will burn things to CD-RW ‘s next time Also something in Bash did not uncompress right and the ghost scrips were bad too . . I tried signing is as single user and default and what ever else got zip zero nada . . kept going back to the you made a mistake screen in login . . I installed it 4 times under different ways and same ID and PW’s user and root PW ! Oh well will different version download stuff to same directory and delete the ones I got last time . .

apotheon: In that case, you’ll probably appreciate…

In reply to a better idea

.

In that case, you’ll probably appreciate EvilDaemon’s avatar:

EvilDaemon’s profile
http://techrepublic.com.com/5213-6257-0.html?id=4789726&redirectTo=%2f1320-22-20.html

not my cup of tea

In reply to apotheon: In that case, you’ll probably appreciate…

It’s somewhat amusing, but that’s not really representative of how I feel about Linux. I guess Beastie patting Tux on the head and saying “Some day you’ll understand, kid,” would probably be more appropriate.

I know…Just for the humor… (NT)

In reply to not my cup of tea

.

By the way, jackie40d . . .

In reply to not my cup of tea

The following is directed at jackie40d, and should not be taken as an indication that anyone else has run afoul of rules of netiquette:

This is one of the few times that you’ve sent me a PM in response to a post in a TR discussion, referencing a post I made or one to which I’ve responded, when I knew what the hell you were talking about. Sending me PMs — changing the context of discussion — when replying to me in some way, without specifically describing the conditions and linking to the location of the context for reference makes it difficult to follow your scattered train of thought.

Furthermore, while I maintain open general access to my via PMs (aka “peer mails”, “private messages”, or “off-site email”) here at TR so that strangers with an interest in getting help from me beyond what’s appropriate in discussions can do so, that doesn’t mean that I’m just begging for everyone to contact me directly about anything and everything that crosses their minds. I would think that by now the dozen or so messages you’ve sent me without a response from me might have been a hint, but apparently not: when I haven’t invited an off-site message, and your message is simply a response to something said here that should fit into the discussion here, [b]here[/b] is probably the appropriate venue for the response. Bombarding my inbox with random mailings is not the appropriate manner of carrying on discussions that began, and continue, within TR’s discussions.

Ironically, I get the distinct impression that your out-of-context attempts to continue discussion with me via email are more often on-topic than your actual posts here at TR (as evidenced by your “NEWS FLASH” posting spree not long ago), but without any context it’s quite difficult to say. Regardless, I’m confused at the fact that you seem to think these off-site messages are welcomed, considering I do not recall giving any impression that I share your views on such wide-ranging subjects as immigration policy, the primacy of Mandriva Linux, or sexual orientation. You might consider these matters in the future when deciding whether or not to use TR’s PM functionality to contact someone new.

I normally would not respond to private messages in a public discussion like this, but there are aspects of your off-site messages that prompt me to avoid any personal, off-site contact that I can avoid. Please take this as advice intended in good faith, and learn the appropriate time and place for carrying on discussion. Learn that, in general, the times when you have chosen to contact me off-site have not been the right time to carry on discussion with me in that “place”.

I did not bombard your mail box

In reply to By the way, jackie40d . . .

Since they made fix of the change of the “0” to “1” no longer a way to leave a message here !
I sent 1 message to you as E-Mail I got from another source and added the link as it pertained to this line . . It was about the File system of think its ZFS or somthing like that MAC’s new file system and (ALSO solaris 10 now has it too) . . any way it was the New to be OS from MAC OS for PC’s with the new file system added . . Would have made windows feel REALLY BAD if they had it now . . By the way Solaris 10 is a waste of time . . Was the worst Version of Linux I have ever put on a HD . . I must have to new of a pile of stuff in my computer as it seen none of it Just keyboard mouse and video . . Must be the Intel P4 3.2 gigahertz CPU and the rest of my computer thats unfindable . . Strange Ubuntu Fawn found it all( or most of it ) . . Just did not want to dial up the ISP and I did not want to install VMware-Server to it . .
and I went back to the Linux Mandriva 2007 for a OS in linux and added a ton of items
I have mostly RPM’s for installtion to Linux almost as easy as a windows EXE file . . . . I could start adding .deb files to the Linux Folder . . As they undo just as easy . .
Way late got to go to bed just looked at the time . .

rules of netiquette ?

In reply to By the way, jackie40d . . .

What ever this was about, was so long ago I have forgotten what it was about ! It had to have been over 1 month ago now as I have been gone for that long . . removing Illegal alien Invaders from the USA . . Something you people do not seem to have time for ..

Turn off Vista Desktop Search? You don’t.

In reply to Another great reason to like Ubuntu

Of course there’s a way–any of us here could probably do it (I haven’t looked, being on Linux). But MS (despite the Google decision) is leaving DS running, hog that it is.
MS really knows how to leverage a monopoly.
See the URL below:

http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/13047/1023/

I’m with you as well, enough is enough

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I had enough with XP but could understand, a lot of people with hacked PKs. However I just downloaded Ubuntu and played around with it, Its beautiful, it has a full office suite (that can open and save as M$ Word, Excell, etc.) has all the functionality that i need for my business, and most of my home life, networking and shared printers are not a problem, and best of all———–>>>>> FREE! I will pay for a retail copy just to support their product.
Cheers….:-))

Congratulations…

In reply to I’m with you as well, enough is enough

.
Congratulations on freeing yourself from Microsoft tyranny!

Hey Tech

In reply to Congratulations…

Seems M$ Got caught with their hands in the cookie jar . .:-)
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/products/software/2007-06-20-microsoft-desktop-google_N.htm

Aw jee and they are going to sue whom over what ? Me thinks they better check their own back yard 😉

Ballmer: Google’s claims are “baseless”

In reply to Hey Tech

.
Isn’t that somethin’?

[i]”…We continue to comply with the consent decree we signed with the US government in recognition to the findings around our position with Windows. We think all claims to the contrary are baseless…”[/i] — Steve Ballmer, Microsoft CEO, just TWO days ago (1)

That Ballmer! What a maroon! (in Bugs Bunny’s voice)

I still say Ballmer is incompetent to be CEO of a Fortune 50 corporation.

————————————–

(1) Microsoft CEO: Google complaint ‘baseless’
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,39287583,00.htm

HEY news flash Seems MS got caught !

In reply to I’m with you as well, enough is enough

They had their hands in the cookie jar and got caught by another giant 🙂
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/products/software/2007-06-20-microsoft-desktop-google_N.htm

Aw jee and so much for M$ stuff . .

Office 2007

In reply to I’m with you as well, enough is enough

I love and use Open Office but what value will there be in being able to open .doc (etc.) when MS is moving to .docx (etc.) as their new standard?

If Office 2007 (and 2008 for Mac) gets a strong foothold amongst ‘low tech savvy’ users will the choice of Ubuntu and OO look so clever?

How do people think MS’s next power play is going to play out as far as Linux/OO goes? It’s got me intrigued.

One answer

In reply to Office 2007

.
[b][i]”…I love and use Open Office but what value will there be in being able to open .doc (etc.) when MS is moving to .docx (etc.) as their new standard?…”[/i][/b]

I think the current MS Office 97-2003 file formats will be widely used for many years to come. And, I think the new proprietary MS XML formats will have limited adoption. We’ll have to wait and see. You know, lots of companies are still running MS Office 2000. There are a lot of companies that don’t rush to the latest MS Office release. I expect that to continue.

Well right at the moment not one single business that I service

In reply to Office 2007

Will move to Office 2007 because of compatibility issues with the older versions. They want any documents that they send out to be readable on anything that is run by companies or Government Departments that they communicate with.

It’s pointless putting in a tender in the 2007 format if the receiving end is incapable of reading the Tender for work so currently no one is interested. If M$ release a plug in for 2007 to make it backward compatible and readable in older versions of Office then maybe as new hardware is rolled out it will be used but currently this isn’t the case and M$ is still supplying Office 2003 so currently there are no problems.

The issue may be forced to a head if M$ remove Office 2003 from sale before there is a way to allow it’s output to be read in older versions of Office without the need to apply some patch or plug in to the older version as companies can not be certain that their documents that are sent electronically can be read at the receiving end which is were they make most of their money. If this was to happen there would have to be something else found that will allow the companies to maintain their Standard Document Layout and have it readable where ever they send it to. Their only other option would be to print it out and Courier it to the Receiving End which defeats the purpose of Electronic Lodgment.

Col

Col: You can change the MS Word 2007 default file format

In reply to Well right at the moment not one single business that I service

.
According to this page (1), MS Word 2007 can transparently open and maintain doc files in doc format.

According to this page (2), MS Word 2007 users can change the default file format to MS Word 97-2003. If this works as it appears, companies can upgrade to Office 2007 and continue using the old “.doc” format of MS Word 97-2003 without trouble. This should be tested though to ensure that during editing, docx-specific features are gracefully turned off and editing proceeds without difficulty, without stupid reminders about how great “docx” is, and whatnot.

For whatever it’s worth.

—————————————–

(1) Use Word 2007 to open documents created in a previous version of Word
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word/HA100444751033.aspx

(2) Change Word 2007 Default Saving Format to Compatibility Mode
http://www.ejabs.com/blog/2007/03/change-word-2007-default-saving-format-to-compatibility-mode/

TechExe2 The main problem that I’m looking at currently

In reply to Col: You can change the MS Word 2007 default file format

Is that the companies who I supply new hardware to be able to communicate with older versions of Office. In the last few months I’ve replaced 5 complete LAN’s and every one has needed backward compatibility so that they can maintain Electronic Transfer of things like Tenders. These are saved in the Native Word 2007 file format the same applies to any imported documents if they are edited they can become unreadable when transmitted again to an older version of Word. Because of this M$ is still selling Office 2003 on Volume Licenses as the Corporate community will not accept 2007 because of the compatibility issues.

Currently I believe that M$ is working on a plug in or something similar for the older versions of Office to be able to read the new format but really that’s no fix they need to be able to alter the 2007 Documents to be readable in the older Office versions as you are unaware of who has what software installed when you send or submit documents for Electronic Transfer.

Sometime soon we may see places who accept Electronic Transfers stating what format they will receive transfers in but currently this isn’t happening and that is the problem. Even Open Office can not read some of the Office 2007 documents which is a real problem as previously Open Office was the only thing that made the transition to new versions of M$ Office acceptable as you always knew that you had a backup available to allow you to work with Office Documents and then open them in Open Office and change the format of the document to be sent. The Open Source product was keeping M$ Office in business and allowing people to move to the new version when it became available and then when M$ eventually caught up and released the necessary patches you could do away with Open Office but this time there is no workaround and sales of 2007 are suffering as a result.

Col

Col: Sorry to hear that

In reply to TechExe2 The main problem that I’m looking at currently

.
It appears that Microsoft did not learn its lesson from the LAST TIME it did not make the new version of MS Office work transparently with the old file format until the business decided it wanted to allow the new format.

It’s not a surprise, really. A normal company that doesn’t take care of customers’ needs well goes out of business very quickly. Only a monopoly can get away with it.

Compatibility Pack

In reply to TechExe2 The main problem that I’m looking at currently

To view documents from 07 on an earlier version of Office go here
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word/HA100444731033.aspx

MS has a compatibility pack, and has for several months. I found this out after several people started receiving these new formats.

If the user cannot view even after this install, then have them re-send the document. They can change to an older version format withing Office 07.

Things that I have noticed with the compat pack
While it works on some docs, not very good on others. Out of the 7 or 8 that I had to help with, 2 could not be opened. But it could be forwarded to someone with Off07 and they opened without issue.

As TechExec2 pointed out . . .

In reply to Office 2007

MS Office 2007 will not be immediate and universal. There will be a lot of people still using older MS Office versions, and as such people who upgrade to the 2007 release will need to cater to those needs. As such, OpenOffice.org will still be a viable choice, until it picks up support for Microsoft’s new office file formats.

That leads me to another point: It won’t be long before MS Office 2007 formats are supported in open source software, anyway. It’s not like OpenOffice.org is necessarily going to be stuck at its current level of support for MS file formats forever. It’ll evolve, despite the attempts by Microsoft to break backward compatibility. In fact, this sort of thing is epidemic with MS Office releases, which is why the joke is often made that MS Office isn’t as compatible with MS Office as OpenOffice.org.

www.iplobster.com | office 2007 have frontpage??

In reply to Office 2007

lol i can’t find it there or what happend to that prog? no more exist?

I’m with you as well, enough is enough

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I had enough with XP but could understand, a lot of people with hacked PKs. However I just downloaded Ubuntu and played around with it, Its beautiful, it has a full office suite (that can open and save as M$ Word, Excel, etc.) has all the functionality that i need for my business, and most of my home life, networking and shared printers are not a problem, and best of all———–>>>>> FREE! I will pay for a retail copy just to support their product.
Cheers….:-))

WOW or Arrggghhh it’s here – when does it get accepted?

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

The noise and fury that MS has managed to generate all over the web with Vista seems to be without precedent in my memory.

Is this vitriolic attack from so many people the ‘Wow Factor’ they were hoping for?

Got to say I am waiting for October with some anticipation to see if OS X 10.5 generates as much (proportional to the numbers of users) anger from the Mac users.

Does anyone see this level of animosity dying down soon? It’s been, what, 5 months, and still the messages of outrage and disappointment from people who’ve ‘bought in’ fill TR, You Tube, etc, etc. Does anyone have a date when they expect retailers to refuse to offer XP anymore and for people to just get over the whole thing with Vista and accept it or is going to take until SP1 or is it going to be like ME and hated for all time or (insert other idea here).

What sayeth you all on when the ‘Vista is devil spawned’ tirades are going to be be a thing of the past and it’s just THE MS OS and mainstream people really start to decide if they are going to say with MS or move to other OS providers (e.g. Linux)? I can’t see the ‘great unwashed’ moving away from MS due to Vista (but maybe I’m wrong). If I’m right isn’t it time to start working on what to do about Vista instead of grasping onto the sinking life raft that is XP and hoping Vista goes away?

Or am I completely deluded and/or missing the point here?

Vista is not ready to be accepted. Maybe later (for some).

In reply to WOW or Arrggghhh it’s here – when does it get accepted?

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[b][i]”…Got to say I am waiting for October with some anticipation to see if OS X 10.5 generates as much (proportional to the numbers of users) anger from the Mac users…”[/i][/b]

What makes you think this is likely to happen? Unlike Microsoft, Apple has a pretty good record with Mac OS X releases. It is almost safe enough to automatically upgrade.

[b][i]”…isn’t it time to start working on what to do about Vista instead of grasping onto the sinking life raft that is XP and hoping Vista goes away?…”[/i][/b]

In a word, no. I think most people know that Vista is not going away.

[b]Some points[/b]

** People can easily stick with XP for 2-3 years. There is no need to rush out and impale yourself on Vista.

** XP will be available in retail stores and from PC OEMs through January 2008 (1). XP will be available through eBay for quite a while after that. XP will be fully supported by Microsoft at least through January 2009 (2). Many corporate customers can run XP for longer than that. I think the date is 2010.

** For many people, Vista is a sick dog right now. For some others with the “right” very powerful hardware, Vista is OK. Just about everybody is having some (or many) application software incompatibility problems.

** I expect Microsoft will fix a lot of things with Vista SP1. There might even be some performance improvements. God knows there is a lot of room for improvement there. I suspect many people will re-evaluate Vista when SP1 is available. Until then, Vista is out of the question for those people.

** Don’t forget. Vista has driven some people away from the Windows platform permanently (as a primary OS that is). I am one of those, and there are a lot of others here on TR.

** Bottom line: Microsoft took five years and has laid a rotten egg with Vista. Microsoft and Vista deserve all of the ridicule and vitriole that they are getting.

———————————————

(1) Windows Life-Cycle Policy
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/lifecycle/default.mspx

(2) Microsoft Support Lifecycle Policy FAQ
http://support.microsoft.com/gp/lifepolicy

No more windows for me.

In reply to Vista is not ready to be accepted. Maybe later (for some).

I finally dumped the M$ 98 machine. I had it for e-mail, browsing and some embedded development.

I’m trying out Elive, Debian based with Enlightenment as the window manager. Was a cover disk with Linux Format #92. e17 is unstable as they say in the install but recognized all my hardware. The only edit that I had to make was to xorg.conf to enable the second monitor.

Importing mail is really the only issue I have at this time. Thunderbird -> Thunderbird

I swore that I wasn’t buying Vista. I did. It was not M$ Vista ha! Paint colour was Vista blue! 🙂

Welcome to the family of *nix users!

In reply to No more windows for me.

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[b][i]”…Importing mail is really the only issue I have at this time. Thunderbird -> Thunderbird…”[/i][/b]

I haven’t done this myself. But, it appears to be easy:

[i]”…If you want to transfer a mail file to another Mozilla profile or another installation of Mozilla, simply put the mail file into the other installation’s Mail folder…”[/i] From (1)

———————————————-

(1) Thunderbird FAQ
http://www.mozilla.org/support/thunderbird/faq.html

I Have done that

In reply to Welcome to the family of *nix users!

just be sure you put the stuff in the right place and it all comes up when you open the Thunderbird again ( make sure you call your self the same thing in Linux you did in windows ) as it tends to get a bit weird now and then if your in wrong folders . . Also make sure the version in Linux is the same or a later version
as some times you can’t go backwards . .

SAN

In reply to I Have done that

The other problem I had was the SAN wasn’t remounted on reboot ( solved this ) thus Thunderbird was using a different folder than I was expecting.

I setup the SAN just for the migration but it is working out so well, music, games, are all served from it now. So I now only have to install once and use it ( theory 🙂 ) from any one of my systems.

Found the missing link.

In reply to Welcome to the family of *nix users!

Thanks TechExec2, the account settings were not enough to access the old files. By editing the profiles.ini file THB was able to see the mail files.

Now I just have to merge all these scattered mail files. Using ‘Local Mail’ to store and ‘User Mail’ to read the files it should only take time to get it done.

Many people seem to need a feature to import and merge their old mail.

You’re welcome. I think…

In reply to Found the missing link.

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You’re welcome. I think Thunderbird should have a nice GUI import function that cleanly imports mail from another Thunderbird installation. It’s a significant omission.

Yeah I think I will drop that into

In reply to You’re welcome. I think…

I will drop that Ideal into the Mozilla Ideal bucket as I noticed it wast to import stuff from some MS junk but never the old files from before . . Its why I copy the ENTIRE folder of the profiles with the mail and adresses in it off to another drive for safe keeping . . I got an old Iomega 100 meg thing I made into a EXTERNAL DRIVE and keep stuff there now easier to keep a stack of 100 meg Disks than load a Drive up with files . .
I put them in a case lined with LEAD and COPPER foil and grounded . . 🙂 just incase of a EMP . . ! Thinking of adding a HUGH GIANT HD same way . . I wonder if a EMP would kill a MB not plugged in ?

one time a month

In reply to Found the missing link.

Onec a Month I copy all that stuff out to Drive E under a directory called SAVE-THIS . . Just incase something goes weird on me . . Like my default save to folder is out on Drive D into a folder called Web-Graph just incase something is not right with it . . I once had the default dump just Drive D . . and some one sent me an e-mail with a nice picture in it I did the normal right click and saved the file it came up as “index” ?
and I clicked ok to save . . TA DA ! the next day when I started the computer it did a complete ERASE of Drive D as the index file was corrupt or missing . . took me days to get all that stuff back on there . . and some is still missing . . as the web site is under attack by hackers in Russia . . Its a free site at Dazzled.com . . all you get is timed out when you try to get there . . And the same at Cyberturf.com . . so Untill the company gets the DOS fixed it will stay down ! and I will be missing files . .
I also back up Drive D to DVD-RW’s keeps stuff alive for another day . .

Currently there is no need to adopt Vista

In reply to WOW or Arrggghhh it’s here – when does it get accepted?

Maybe late this year early next year when the first Service Pack becomes available things may improve. But then again they may not. If M$ can stick to their projected time lines which they have always failed to in the past at the 2 year after release point a Major Service Pack will be launched that locks out any hardware not Digitally Signed and then at the 4 year mark a new OS will be released which will be a development of Vista and it will lock out any software that isn’t Digitally Signed.

Between WGA and DRM I see this as M$ biggest problem dictating to their customers what they can and can not use on and in their computers. Currently I’m not anticipating any switch to Vista in the short term and somewhere around the 18 month to 2 years will consider evaluating it again but only if the customers that I support want to use it. Currently I’m buying a lot of Volume Licenses of XP and Office 2003 which are still freely available through the Partners Support Line so I’m not overly concerned about the issue as yet.

If anything I can see M$ shooting them self in the foot over their actions and while on new computers the hardware involved isn’t overly big Vista is currently a Dog that needs it’s vaccinations and training before you would consider taking it out in public. It breaks way too much equipment including hardware and working software so it’s not as yet suitable for a Business Environment.

Col

There is a light at the end

In reply to WOW or Arrggghhh it’s here – when does it get accepted?

I do believe there is a light at the end of this tunnel and it is headed toward LINUX as the OTHER OS ! I have now sold several computers with a version Linux on them . . And they are happy with the computer as it runs very good does what they want it to lets them Print, go online, AND NO TUESDAY PATCHES ! And me I am happy too don’t have to buy much of anything just install it . .

Microsoft launches the “Proceed With Confidence” campaign :^0

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

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[b][i]”…Some customers may be waiting to adopt Windows Vista because they’ve heard rumors about device or application compatibility issues, or because they think they should wait for a service pack release. To help partners and customers get the real story, Microsoft has created a comprehensive set of fact-rich materials illustrating how Windows Vista is ready today and tomorrow…”[/i][/b] —– Microsoft (1)(2)

Rumors about problems? :0 :^0

Get the real story? From Microsoft? Purveyors of the Windows Genuine [u]Advantage[/u]? :^0

Vista is ready today? :^0

This is pathetic! In this age of the Internet, the truth about Vista is all over the web and cannot be hidden (3). Microsoft should be viewed with extreme contempt and not trusted about this or anything else.

The Emperor has no clothes! :^0

———————————–

(1) Windows Vista – Proceed with Confidence (or tread carefully?)
http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=530

(2) Don’t wait for Vista SP1, pleads Microsoft
http://www.apcmag.com/6458/dont_wait_for_vista_sp1_pleads_microsoft

(3) 94 million hits on the web relating to Vista problems — That’s more than two for each of the “40 million Vista customers”! :^0
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=vista+problem&btnG=Search

Now be fair really what else can you expect?

In reply to Microsoft launches the “Proceed With Confidence” campaign :^0

If M$ doesn’t sing the Praises of Vista who the Hell is going to?

Sure we know that it’s all a [b]Crock of Shite[/b] but really what else has M$ ever done all through it’s history?

When XP was released part of the original selling ploy was that it didn’t need servers that lasted till someone was silly enough to attempt a decent size install and it didn’t work. Unfortunately for M$ in the case that I dealt with they had a Sales Person Supervising the installation and they had to make it work. :^0

After I got called in as a favor to the head of M$ Tech Support I believe that M$ supplied the Server software at normal prices but didn’t charge for the CAL’s to get out of that little one.

Proceed with Confidence is just like M$ Trusted Computing a nice catch phrase for the sales people but utter rubbish to anyone with half a brain. Even the Village Idiot here accepts that his business can not move to Vista yet so that I think says it all doesn’t it?

Col

Keep going Microsoft preys!!!

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I was all Microsoft as some of you. Till I got shocked when I first installed my trial of Vista. My laptop is a 2G RAM memory, fast AMD processor Athlon 3G and Vista had the courage to say to me that it was disappointed with my hardware! WTF!

Then I read about DRM and I suddenly explode!
For the sake of my… so I made up my mind and I switched to Linux (Kubuntu). Now… I can make everything and without a single penny, and what it the best of all… I don’t have to worry about those annoying situations!

At least you should try it!

It is just a good advice, don’t take me wrong!

Sincerely,
lnxfan

Microsoft presents the [i]VISTA PERCEPTION IS REALITY TOUR![/i] (humor)

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

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[b]Microsoft presents the [i]VISTA PERCEPTION IS REALITY TOUR![/i][/b]
Sponsored by Eli Lilly and Company — Makers of Prozac(tm) and Cialis(tm)

As many of you know, our slogan at Microsoft is “Your potential. Our passion(tm).”. Also, like many of you, we learn new things as we go. Since January 30th, we have learned that we cannot be passionate only about your potential. We must also be passionate about your perception. For some of you, your perception about Vista is holding back your potential, and ours.

In the coming months, we’ll be visiting hundreds of cities around the globe in the “Vista Perception is Reality Tour”. Simply put: If you [u]perceive[/u] that Vista is good, it is! Our tour includes some famous guest speakers. We’re very pleased that Napoleon Hill, author of “Think and Grow Rich”, will be presenting on our tour. We know that many people think Mr. Hill is dead. But, he [u]perceives[/u] he is still alive and [u]he will be there[/u]! He is a “living” testimonial to the power of positive thinking. And, positive thinking is the key to liking Vista.

The “Vista Perception is Reality Tour” is going to change everything. Be sure to attend when it comes to your town.

[b]Our new slogan: [i]Your perception. Our passion(tm)[/i].[/b]

As everyone knows, we’re LOADED! We have used some of that cash to acquire the Eli Lilly Company lock, stock, and apothecary jar. We’ve also acquired the Rite Aid pharmacy and renamed it “The Microsoft Store”.

In order to help you with your perception about Vista, our Eli Lilly Division has developed and released a new drug called Vistac(tm) (formerly code named Prozac 2.0). During the beta (aka drug trial), it was tested extensively by Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer, and by Tux as part of our commitment to Linux interoperability (1). Of course, it’s patented, and we expect to make a bundle off of it.

Each box of Windows Vista now contains a coupon for a complimentary lifetime supply of Microsoft Vistac(TM). We want you to be happy [u]all[/u] of the time, whether your Vista computer is infested with malware, you have a BSOD, or you are on the phone to us in Bangalore getting re-activated. We are confident that Vistac(tm) is going to permanently take care of any Vista perception problems that you have.

Note: Those who attend a “Vista Perception is Reality Tour” event will receive a trial version of Windows Vista Ultimate and a complimentary trial size of Vistac(tm).

[b]Vista SP1 is Coming Soon![/b]

Cadence is critical with all meds, so Vista SP1 will include a new feature that reminds you when it is time to take your Vistac(tm) pill. It also automatically orders your free refills over the Internet and will remind you to go to your local Microsoft Store to pick them up. The reminders appear in the lower-right corner of the screen where the WGA de-activation messages appear. For example:

[i]Hey Steven S. Warren! It’s time to take your Vistac(tm) pill! After you take it, please wait 30 minutes then click “Next”. The Windows Genuine Advantage has a very important message for you (Important: Be sure to wait the full 30 minutes to allow time for Vistac to work).[/i]

[Editor’s Note: Love ya, Steven! 🙂 ]

[b]A Vista Testimonial from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)[/b]

Dr. Seymore “Pinky” L. Phants, CTO at the FDA, writes:

[i]”At the FDA, we upgraded all of our workstations to Vista two months ago. Since then, nobody has been able to connect to the server. Sound doesn’t work. Videos are choppy. It takes 5 minutes to boot. Performance generally sucks. Many of our applications do not work correctly. And, many machines are down and have the BSOD.

All of us at the FDA were also part of the Vistac(tm) beta release (aka drug trial). And, I have to tell you, we think Vista is the greatest operating system ever created. The problems are very small really. We’re laughing a lot more often and our computing experience is just great! Vista on Vistac(tm) is SO much better than XP!

Our examiners enthusiastically approved Vistac(tm) for sale over the counter and we wholeheartedly recommend Windows Vista(tm) to all computer users! Thanks for making such a great product!”[/i]

Well said, Dr. Phants! THANK YOU for your kind words, and congratulations on your Vista success story. Also, we’re just swelling with pride to hear that all of the male FDA examiners are taking Microsoft ProPrism(tm) (formerly code named Cialis version 2.0). All of us at Microsoft worked really hard to get the project successfully through beta testing (aka drug trials). It was so satisfying to see it build to the climax of FDA approval. Since then, we released the product to the public and we have received many “thank you” letters. It is such a pleasure to read them. We cannot wait for the mailman to come each day.

[b]Call to Action[/b]

Now get out there, buy your Vista upgrade, and Proceed With Confidence(tm)! And, know that if you take your Vistac(tm) as directed, the “WOW” will REALLY start! We guarantee it!

Sincerely,

Your friends at Microsoft Corporation
[i]Your perception. Our passion(tm).[/i]

——————————————

(1) Steve Ballmer and Tux on Vistac(tm) during the beta test (drug trial)
Can you tell which penguin is on Vistac(tm)?

That’s the clincher now. ]:)

In reply to Microsoft presents the [i]VISTA PERCEPTION IS REALITY TOUR![/i] (humor)

I knew those ‘shrooms I did back in the early 70’s woulds come back to haunt me. I’m trippin’ out dood.

Lookit all the purty colors and transparent winders.

I can see. I can see brotha’ Andy.

He’p me Aunt Bee. I’m a tad bit hungry.

Coffee? I think so. Bring me the pot. No not that pot. The coffeepot. :^0

Yeah…Drugs…Just say no (NT)

In reply to That’s the clincher now. ]:)

.

TE2, If I were you…

In reply to Microsoft presents the [i]VISTA PERCEPTION IS REALITY TOUR![/i] (humor)

…I would hire a food taster and start watching for black Chevy Surburbans in the rear view. 🙂

By the way, I followed the YouTube link and (after watching Ballmer make a fool of himself) found any number of Linux Beryl versus Vista Aero comparison videos. Beryl wins hands down — no contest.

Thanks for the good advice.

In reply to TE2, If I were you…

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Thanks for the good advice. I’ll be careful.

If you gotta go, go with a smile on your face!

P.S. Yes. That Beryl is pretty cool stuff.

Beryl

In reply to Thanks for the good advice.

It is attractive – where to download it 🙂

Beryl compositing window manager

In reply to Beryl

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Yes. Beryl and Compiz (another compositing window manager) are very cool. Personally, I don’t run them because I’ve read they are not quite ready for prime time and relatively slow things down a bit (to be expected). I’m more interested in snappy speed and productivity and multi-monitor support (often they are incompatible). So, I’ve steered clear of them for now. I tried Compiz once and it was a lot of fun. I intend to take another look at it when it becomes a mainstream part of the Linux distribution I run (currently isn’t). I’ve read that it _might_ be that way in the next Ubuntu release for example.

Here’s some direction:

Beryl Project
http://www.beryl-project.org/

Compiz Project
http://compiz.org/

Information about Beryl from “The Google”
http://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+beryl&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Installing Beryl On An Ubuntu Feisty Fawn Desktop With An ATI Radeon Graphic Card
http://www.howtoforge.com/ubuntu_feisty_beryl_ati_radeon

How to Install Beryl with latest nvidia drivers in Ubuntu Feisty Fawn

How to Install Beryl with latest nvidia drivers in Ubuntu Feisty Fawn

Beryl…

In reply to Beryl compositing window manager

Thank you very much TE2 🙂

You’re welcome my friend… (NT)

In reply to Beryl…

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TE2, carry your linux install disk,

In reply to TE2, If I were you…

The black Chevy Suburbans are the FEDS to put you in the Windows Protection Program. However you must be able to install Linux on demand! 🙂

Well that’s just great…

In reply to TE2, carry your linux install disk,

Well that’s just great… :p

I’ll carry a Kubuntu CD. At least it will be over quickly. That sucker installed in just 15 minutes for me! Fastest OS install I have ever seen.

Question there

In reply to Well that’s just great…

Was that a FULL INSTALL on the HD or a live CD install ?

That was a full install…

In reply to Question there

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That was a full install to the hard drive from the “live boot” CD. It was Kubuntu 7.04 Feisty Fawn. The hardware was fast but not bleeding edge. Athlon 3000+ (single core), 1.5 GB DDR400, empty 160 GB 7200 PATA HDD (empty matters!), high speed DVD/CD.

I think the keys to the speed I observed was:

– Limited amount of data: It was only from a single CD. A Fedora 6 install requires multiple CDs or a DVD for example.

– Limited Q&A: There were no packages to select. A Fedora 6 install requires you to make choices for example.

– Efficient hardware.

Booting directly from the CD happened much more quickly. It took just a minute or two. I didn’t time it.

I have the IDE to SATA adapters

In reply to That was a full install…

I have been thinking of adding them to see if its faster ( I got all 4 adapters for the drives ) Means I got to add them and then change the CMOS to the SATA cables leaves more room I would say that for it . . Maybe on next week I can do that when I have time . .

Steve Ballmer Video…

In reply to Microsoft presents the [i]VISTA PERCEPTION IS REALITY TOUR![/i] (humor)

I seen the original video, and now this one with the penguin… I am not sure which is Ballmer now though 😀

Now that YouTube is here…

In reply to Steve Ballmer Video…

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Now that YouTube is here, we all have to remember that anything we do could be caught on video and broadcast globally “forever”. Yikes!

I am only in one video

In reply to Now that YouTube is here…

I am in in just 1 video and its before I lost weight . . So they will be looking for a fat me
. . 🙂 Guess I will have to change my hair color too . . Waiting for some petitions to arrive to RECALL 2 senators we got in ARIZONA !
They have become the AMNESTY TWINS errrrrrrrrr ! !
Kyle and McCain ( lettace head as we call him now since his offer to pay $ to people whom would pick Lettace ) And tons of people said Ok we are here where is the money . .
And Kyle was promised a seat as a Judge talk about 30 pieces of silver !

Which one?

In reply to Microsoft presents the [i]VISTA PERCEPTION IS REALITY TOUR![/i] (humor)

They both have suits and both hop. Which one is Steve and which is Tux?

Tux is the one…

In reply to Which one?

Tux is the one that acts like that only with assistance from modern chemistry! :^0

Yet another reason to ditch MS

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

See:
http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2007/06/22/microsoft_mar_ditches_office/

And recall that almost all Linux distros come with OpenOffice.

MS has shot itself in the feet so often that I’m surprised it can stagger on.

My guess…

In reply to Yet another reason to ditch MS

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Interesting article…

Microsoft pulled Office XP from the charity refurbished PCs and offered no explanation other than “legal reasons”. My guess is that this has to do with their lifecycle policy. Technically, by allowing Office XP to be installed on these PCs, Microsoft is still distributing Office XP and could be legally liable if they don’t fix security problems.

“Mainstream support” for Office XP already ended in July 2006 (1). It will end for Office 2003 in January 2009, less than 2 years from now (2). These old refurbished PCs are certainly way too underpowered to be able to run Office 2007.

Furthermore, Microsoft is pulling Office 2003 from PC builders (3). It seems that Microsoft is making a full court press to move customers to Vista and Office 2007 RIGHT NOW. This has got to be out of fear of losing customers to Linux. Microsoft probably thinks that if they can just get customers to move to Vista and Office 2007 with its proprietary file formats, they won’t lose them to Linux and OpenOffice. Makes sense to me.

Now, why can’t Microsoft just be open and honest about their reasons? If I’m right about the reason, it IS understandable why they would pull Office XP. Microsoft cannot be expected to provide security updates for a very old product just because they allow it to be installed for free on old refurbished PCs for charity.

Regardless, you’re absolutely right. The refurbishers should simply move to Ubuntu (and OpenOffice).

——————————————-

(1) Microsoft Support Lifecycle (Office XP)
http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=2533

(2) Microsoft Support Lifecycle (Office 2003)
http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=2488

(3) Say goodbye to Office 2003, Microsoft tells PC builders
http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2007/06/19/microsoft_office_2003_oem/

reasons for the “full court press”

In reply to My guess…

“[i]Furthermore, Microsoft is pulling Office 2003 from PC builders (3). It seems that Microsoft is making a full court press to move customers to Vista and Office 2007 RIGHT NOW. This has got to be out of fear of losing customers to Linux. Microsoft probably thinks that if they can just get customers to move to Vista and Office 2007 with its proprietary file formats, they won’t lose them to Linux and OpenOffice. Makes sense to me.[/i]”

Actually, I don’t know that Linux has anything [b]directly[/b] to do with that decision. It seems more likely to me that Microsoft is pushing for universal “upgrades” to Vista and Office 2007 because it needs market successes for these software packages to look good in quarterly reviews and stock prices. That’s really what it comes down to — if Microsoft could maintain its market domination without releasing Vista, it would, and if it could just sit around and wait for people to migrate at their own pace and somehow improve its apparent success rate for its shareholders it would do that, too.

Linux is just one reason of many that taking such direct action is necessary — but it isn’t the actual point of that action, per se. That’s my guess.

I like your reasoning

In reply to reasons for the “full court press”

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I like your reasoning. Pushing Vista out in such poor condition was clearly premature and was very likely motivated primarily by restless investors (“Will my investment in MSFT EVER grow?”) and critical analysts (“Will Longhorn/Vista EVER be released?”). An investment in Microsoft stock has been dead money for many years now (still is, even FIVE months after Vista! Very bad sign). I think you’re right. Investors are likely the primary concern. Defections (to *nix and OpenOffice) are a secondary concern.

Some notes:

– Previously unconcerned: Microsoft coasted with XP from 2001 to 2007 without much apparent concern about losing momentum in the market. Now that Vista is out and so many people are complaining, and *nix/OpenOffice are showing some new strength, Microsoft’s recent moves appear to be motivated by desperation (and rightly so). I almost feel sorry for them (NOT!).

– Unprecedented product withdrawals: XP will be pulled from the market sooner than any previous Windows release (1) (just 12 months after Vista; 2000 was available for 2.25 years after XP; NT4 was available for 2.25 years after 2000; 95 was available for 2.5 years after 98). Likewise for Office 2003 (unavailable just [u]six[/u] months after Office 2007).

– Desperate marketing: The Vista “Proceed with Confidence” campaign has desperation written all over it. “Vista is ready today”? What complete crap! Only an idiot or a liar would say that with a straight face. Microsoft is pushing harder than ever to get customers to break with the hard-learned tradition of waiting for SP1.

– Pulling Office 2003 from PC OEMs so soon after the Office 2007 launch is suspicious as it does not affect revenue. But, it does propagate that proprietary XML file format and increase lock-in. That might drive some Office 2007 upgrades on other PCs nearby (e.g. same company, same family, group of interacting companies, etc.), and discourage adoption of OpenOffice (currently doesn’t handle the new format).

– Getting OEMs to sell, and customers to accept, Vista on new PCs has no affect on revenue unless PC sales rates increase. PC OEMs say sales growth rates have not been boosted by Vista.

– The full court press for Vista and Office 2007 largely won’t increase revenue vs. previous quarters. Investors won’t be impressed with the lack of growth. But, it will help to retard defections to *nix and OpenOffice. And, Microsoft can crow about the sales of the new products which can help cred with investors who’ll buy that (your point, I agree).

– Vista upgraders are having a pretty hard time and the word is out. Vista upgrades are essentially dead at least until SP1 now.

– Microsoft changed accounting methods for Windows sales. They used to defer a portion of Windows sales revenue into future quarters (over 2 years I think). Beginning with Vista, Microsoft is taking 100% of revenue in the quarter when the sale occurred, increasing near-term reported revenue. This looks like an attempt to report “growth” and impress restless investors when it is really just an accounting change.

– The longer people resist Vista, and resist upgrading to Office 2007, the more time *nix and OpenOffice have a chance to gain momentum. This is a lot like fighting an infection for Microsoft. If you kill it before it goes too far, you can stop it. If you let it grow too much, the infection could get out of control no matter what you do.

– Mac notebooks had 14.3% of the U.S. market in May (2). :0 *nix has some very serious market share in notebooks, which is the majority of all computers sold (3). The Mac is no longer off in the corner anymore to be made fun of. This has got to concern Microsoft.

This is interesting to watch as it plays out.

——————————————–

(1) Windows Life-Cycle Policy
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/lifecycle/default.mspx

(2) Apple’s Mac market share on the rise
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,133318-pg,1/article.html

(3) Two in three retail PCs are notebooks (U.S. December 2006)
http://news.com.com/Two+in+three+retail+PCs+are+notebooks/2100-1044_3-6144921.html

I guess I will get a bigger HD

In reply to I like your reasoning

So I can run Linux mandriva 2007 as base and use the Win 2K in VMware-server for junk I can’t yet run in Linux say about a 250 gig drive as there are some programs which take gig’s of room to use it or install it let alone the files to edit ( movies and such ) .
Then I can show all these people whom wander in how to use Linux . . Oh yeah the Solaris 10 haha ahum unless you got some weird stuff in your computer FORGET it 😉 . .
Only thing I found wrong with Ubuntu was KKKP did not want to dial out PCLinuxOS needs a bit more stuff added to it to make it a REAL GOOD version of Linux . . There is a UP Grade to the Linux I have its on DVD’s YES ! !
It will save swapping out CD’s for 45 minutes
THAT is Time it takes to load all of it and be signed on to the net . . I got to load Jetpalm to get my Palm running . . Oh yeah that can be inside VMware-server and win 2K . . So just a NEW BIG HD and I am running full out inside Linux 2007 Mandriva And maybe with the up grade added soon 2007.1 ! . . Hey does Linux see the Second HD as drive hd(b) ( c d e what ever letter Linux adds ) 2 and add the different partitions ( its split in two for download stuff and the other for movies and editing them ) I would guess the Win 2K would see them where they are at still ? . . I have been disconecting the second drive when in Linux right now so nothing can delete web sites on the second drive . . Or lose files some way 🙁 . . I have lots of other Peoples sites out there on the second drive as back ups of the site just incase of a hackers hitting them . . Then I can use the little 80 gig drive for a USB Drive for junk stuff or saving files from WEB SITES on . .
It sounds good to me 🙂 I hope it works this way ! I remember that the different parts of the HD Linux is on is split in 3 parts hda hdb hdc right got to look at it next time I am inside Linux think “b” is swap and “c” is home and “a” is root ! or something like that I was looking at the default allocation when it did it . . I have been busier than a 1 legged man in a stair “climbing” contest . .

re: “This is interesting to watch as it plays out.”

In reply to I like your reasoning

“[i]Desperate marketing: The Vista “Proceed with Confidence” campaign has desperation written all over it. “Vista is ready today”? What complete crap! Only an idiot or a liar would say that with a straight face. Microsoft is pushing harder than ever to get customers to break with the hard-learned tradition of waiting for SP1.[/i]”

I concur with your core point, here — that Microsoft is running up against the problem of SP1 adoption. The market at large is increasingly coming to expect that SP1 is the true point of software maturity, or perhaps only software usability (with SP2 as the new “maturity” point), where Microsoft is concerned. This raises an interesting problem for Microsoft: the development and release of SP1 for any MS Windows release is dependent upon the field testing of the system by great numbers of users. If fewer and fewer people are willing to be among the guinea pigs for those field tests, Microsoft will increasingly have difficulty coming up with the test data needed to inform its plans for developing the SP1 needed to spur further adoption. Chicken, or egg.

That “Proceed With Confidence” nonsense is, well, laughable. I don’t know if it’ll work, but if so, it says something disturbingly pathetic about the state of the consumer market for desktop computer operating systems.

“[i]Pulling Office 2003 from PC OEMs so soon after the Office 2007 launch is suspicious as it does not affect revenue. But, it does propagate that proprietary XML file format and increase lock-in. That might drive some Office 2007 upgrades on other PCs nearby (e.g. same company, same family, group of interacting companies, etc.), and discourage adoption of OpenOffice (currently doesn’t handle the new format).[/i]”

Actually, it [b]does[/b] affect revenue. It doesn’t affect it as a direct effect, but it does so as a secondary effect. Sure, they’re selling basically the same number of licenses either way, measured as a one-for-one substitution of Office 2007 licenses for Office 2003 licenses. On the other hand, the more people using Office 2007, the more people will feel pressure to upgrade to Office 2007. In other words, it’s not the people who would have bought Office 2003 licenses that Microsoft is targeting: it’s the people who already have Office 2003 licenses, and wouldn’t otherwise buy a new Office license.

Of course, artificial incompatibility with competing software (such as OpenOffice.org) is another motivation. It’s just not the only motivation.

It’s also worth noting that, to Microsoft, office suites are on the front lines of the operating system market. If nobody is willing to give up MS Office for something like OpenOffice.org (like it in the sense that it’ll run on other OSes), then nobody that uses MS Office will migrate to those other OSes. [b]This[/b] is where fear of something like Linux really comes into play: keeping MS Office file formats incompatible with competing office suites while MS Office is still the dominant office suite is directly aimed at keeping people from using software that doesn’t tie them to MS Windows. The office suite itself is just a means to an end.

“[i]Getting OEMs to sell, and customers to accept, Vista on new PCs has no affect on revenue unless PC sales rates increase. PC OEMs say sales growth rates have not been boosted by Vista.[/i]”

True — but net revenue is not the primary concern for a large, market dominating corporation. The nature of the beast is such that market dominance statistics and the appearance of progress are far more important to the people in charge keeping their jobs than actual dollars and sense (pun intended).

“[i]Mac notebooks had 14.3% of the U.S. market in May (2). :0 *nix has some very serious market share in notebooks, which is the majority of all computers sold (3). The Mac is no longer off in the corner anymore to be made fun of. This has got to concern Microsoft.[/i]”

Interesting. Put those two statistics together, and you get roughly 9.5% of the new computer market made up by Mac laptops alone. That is simply [b]stunning[/b], especially when you consider that not all of the remaining 85.7% of the laptop market is running MS Windows. For instance, this laptop and another one almost exactly like it and about a dozen feet away from me are running FreeBSD and Debian GNU/Linux, respectively.

“[i]This is interesting to watch as it plays out.[/i]”

No kidding.

That sounds LIKE M$ is on the skids to me

In reply to reasons for the “full court press”

If its that bad for them and they got to push people to use their new stuff means Linux of some form or another has MADE MAJOR dents into M$ marketing area’s. .
I should start listing countries which have gone to Linux as their OS and told MS where to go and how to do it . . Its getting bigger by the day and I like it . .
Not saying I am tired of M$ or anything but its time they put out something which was not so full of holes and needed so many patches . .
So maybe we of the Linux users are not so ALONE any more . . 😉

Well another group which will

In reply to Yet another reason to ditch MS

After reading it I laughed a lot . . another group which will say BYE BYE M$ !
And go to a form of Linux and live very happy there after . . As no more Patch Tuesday and no WGA to wonder about . . I think M$ has shot its self so many times that it will take some MAJOR surgery to recover . . They lost China, Germany, Italy, and now working on Europe,! . . PLUS the Gov of USA says no to Vista, this looks like a sinking ship to me, going to be going glub glub glub shortly !

may I post your idea

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

May i post your idea and time-line strategy on my website forum? send me email and ill get you the addy. (I’m goin’ with ya on the road away from windows, BTW)

Sure

In reply to may I post your idea

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Sure! You can post anything you like. I limit my interactions on TR to just the website though. Thanks.

well then, gettin ugly

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

seems the boys from M$ (and i hate using such petty directives like M$, Windoz, and the like) have been watching the threads quite closely. they are in full battle gear and on attack, just so you know, i and all i know are on board with jumping this sinking ship and am willing to just call it a loss when i consider how much money i’ve spent, and my company, and the people i’ve referred to, on MS crap. for 4 years i have told everyone i know that the only reason i even have a windows box is to play 1 (one) game, well that isn’t enough any more, bye-‘buy’- windows/MS.

What are you referring to?

In reply to well then, gettin ugly

.
[b][i]”…well then, gettin ugly. seems the boys from M$ … have been watching the threads quite closely. they are in full battle gear and on attack…”[/i][/b]

No surprise. But, specifically what are you referring to?

Getting Excited?

In reply to What are you referring to?

“seems the boys from M$ … have been watching the threads”

?

General overview of these threads

In reply to What are you referring to?

In all the threads here you can see some in particular that are quite defensive of Vista and MS in general, and I should have posted in a reply to one of the more vicious ones

Actually I don’t see anything wrong with referring to

In reply to well then, gettin ugly

Microsoft as M$. After all MS is a recognized disease that was around before the company Microsoft was established.

Maybe because I worked medical and needed to differentiate between the two as sending a internal memo stating that the MS Product had a problem always resulted in being dragged up to the head Bureaucrats Office to explain how th Computers had contracted Multiple Serous and what we where going to do to cure this incurable problem. 😀

Might sound corny now but at the time it was a nightmare and while I no longer work medical if you use the MS shorthand to any Doctor of the Medical Persuasion their first thought is the Disease not the company.

Actually referring to Microsoft as MS is to me at least more of an insult than M$ as one is clearly recognized as Microsoft M$ and the other can be taken as either the company or disease and referring to Microsoft as an incurable disease to me at least is far more offensive.

Col

Multiple Serous?

In reply to Actually I don’t see anything wrong with referring to

or Multiple Sclerosis?

OK it’s official Be Nice To Col Day!!!!

In reply to Multiple Serous?

I’ve just escaped from Hospital and after 3 days without any form of Computer as the monsters stole my NB to prevent me from going on line and doing anything.

When I added the above I was in the early stages of Acute Renal Failure and I just got worse so shortly after adding the above I was admitted to the Local Meat Works for 3 days and to make matters worse I have to go back there tomorrow to return a complete 24 Hour Urine Test and be examined again so it’s likely that I’ll be in the Meat Works again and this time I may not get out as easily. It all depends if it looks like I’ve been typing with both hands as I’ve been given strict destructions not to use my left arm or hand for anything except to carry out the 1 Gallon Bottle part filled with pi$$. :p

I’m just going to read what I can comfortably now and then go to bed for a nice long peaceful rest but at least the basic idea was got across. 🙁

Col

Be Nice To Col

In reply to OK it’s official Be Nice To Col Day!!!!

Hope you get well soon… sorry to hear you were in Hospital. I know we do not know each other and other things that are past.. but get well soon.

Get well soon, Col!

In reply to OK it’s official Be Nice To Col Day!!!!

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Yes. We should all be nice to Col. Get well soon, Col!

P.S. And, watch out for that tainted Chinese wheat gluten. We had a problem in the U.S. with wheat gluten from China that was contaminated with melamine. The wheat gluten was being used in dog and cat foods and it was causing renal failure. Many thousands of pets died from it. Certain brands of pet food have been off the market for months.

———————————————–

(1) FDA blocks Chinese wheat gluten
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/04/02/national/w123416D80.DTL

(2) Manager of Chinese Wheat Gluten Manufacturer Arrested
http://consumerist.com/consumer/white-noise/manager-of-chinese-wheat-gluten-manufacturer-arrested-257454.php

Actually I think it’s after I filled in a Cadaver Value Form

In reply to Get well soon, Col!

Were [b]She Who Must Be Obeyed[/b] came to the finial conclusion that I was worth more to her dead than alive so she tried to kill me off and then sell my body to Medical Science. 😀

Somehow I managed to avoid the Quack today when I returned with a 1 gallon bottle of Urine so I managed to run out of the Meat Works without a bunch of Medical people trying to do things to me that are no fun at all. :p

However in about 4 weeks I have to return for some more tests and then an appointment where anything is possible, and while I currently feel like CRAP, it’s still better to be home than in the Meat Works with the [b]Caring Profession[/b] administering their own special brand of care. Lets just say that I’ve been poked & prodded in places where I shouldn’t have been touched and then to add insult to injury when they got the pain down to a manageable level decided to examine me again so that they could inflict more pain & suffering. OH the joys of being placed under the Caring Profession. 🙁

Now at least I only have to avoid the wife attempting to poison me and I can crawl into bed and sleep whenever I feel like it without the knowledge that I’m likely to be woken up with some crazy Quack performing some type of examination on me. :^0

But what I did find interesting was that the general conscientious of opinion was that I must have been in contact with someone who has recently been overseas to an infected area and I have my Local GP. Talk about insuring that you have a continuing supply of victims ER I mean Patients to keep your bank balance bulging. All you have to do is get inoculated and go to trouble spots then come back and infect your patients to keep a steady stream of customers lining up out the front door. 😀

The down side is that I have to see him again tomorrow so if I drop like a kindergarten kid throwing down his school bag again I’ll be sure where it came from. Either he picked up something in the wilds of some South African Country or he had a stop over in Jamaica and picked up an endless supply of Voodoo Dolls to bring in the customers to rebuild his bank balance. :0

Col

The Perfect Computer For Vista… (Tongue in cheek)

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2007/06/sun_supercomputer

But I am sure Vista would destroy it 😀

Shaun G

In reply to The Perfect Computer For Vista… (Tongue in cheek)

Joined April 1st 2007?

Hmmmmmmmm….

TechMail

In reply to Shaun G

….Gates is guilty of trying to get Apple to undermine Sun… the idea was mildly amusing and thought would share it.

Question there do you mean

In reply to TechMail

Do you mean the new ZFS file system that is being used by Sun ( part of Solaris 10 now ) thats part of the new OS Leopard to come out from Mac ?
And the PC OS to come out from Mac also kinda a Mac OS for PC’s to run under IBM machines . . You know it should now anyway since the CPU’s in the new Mac are IBM Intel .. right !
Since Mac is really a form of Debian and thats Linux SO ! . . .

That would make MS really feel bad ( evil Laugh here ) . .

uh, no . . .

In reply to Question there do you mean

MacOS X Leopard will only have read access for ZFS — not full read/write support.

MacOS X isn’t “a form of Debian” or any other Linux distribution. It has a Mach kernel, FreeBSD subsystems, and some FreeBSD and GNU core utilities, with a massive proprietary interface layer over the top of it all.

Hummmmmmm ! seems some one told me

In reply to uh, no . . .

Seems some one told me some wrong INFO then . .
From a Story I read on PC-World I thought it was to be IN the new Leopard when ever it gets out . . It was the Same place I was reading about the Mac OS for PC’s was to be some year . . Could not be as bad as Windows OS’s are or were . . Oh well I will keep my fingers, legs and toes crossed for the Mac OS for PC’s Just to stick it in M$’s face . . Well I made another step to being out of Windows last night . . Did some more changing in Linux and got VMware-server up to working and saved it now all that remains is adding the Win 2K and some of the stuff / Programs I need to run . . and moving all the files over to FireFox and Thunderbird and all those piles of Doc’s I keep backing up ! .. And I will be gone from windows never to return . . YES ! Then I just need a HUGH HD for the Backup system . .

How is VMWare & 2K and other MS systems

In reply to Hummmmmmm ! seems some one told me

getting away from Windows exactly?

By this logic I could Buy an ESX server and install Vista, XP, Server 2003 and claim to be Windows free!

As far as I can see you will still have a Windows system?

Mac OS X for the PC

In reply to Question there do you mean

.
[b][i]”…And the PC OS to come out from Mac also kinda a Mac OS for PC’s to run under IBM machines . . You know it should now anyway since the CPU’s in the new Mac are IBM Intel .. right !…”[/i][/b]

Mac OS X for the PC is certainly possible technically. I would welcome it, would certainly buy a copy, and might migrate to it. So far, Apple has not shown interest in it. There is an underground effort to make Mac OS X run on the PC and it does (search for “hackintosh” or “hackint0sh” (note the zero) on “The Google”)! But, Apple’s legal posse is tracking them down and working to kill it.

My guess? I don’t think Apple is going to offer Mac OS X for the PC, especially since they are gaining market share on the Macintosh now.

———————————

Notes:

** Mac OS X for the PC would bring to Apple some of the same kinds of problems that Microsoft has with Windows: Driver issues for so many different kinds of hardware, more difficulty to migrate the platform around (e.g. CPU 68K, PPC, X86), more of a malware target (but I think Apple would STILL be more successful than Windows), and OS piracy!

** Mac OS X for the PC would certainly add many millions of users to the OS that would not buy a Macintosh due to the higher hardware cost. There is nothing like low cost of commodity PC hardware.

** Mac OS X for the PC would draw some sales away from Macintosh hardware where Apple has large margins. Getting $129 per copy of Mac OS X for the PC is pure profit that would hit the bottom line. Getting $2500+ for a notebook computer is at least $500 higher than for a Windows notebook with comparable hardware.

** Mac OS X for the PC would also likely draw more customers TO the Macintosh itself. It is unclear what the net effect would be (losses vs. gains).

** Mac OS X for the PC would put great fear into Microsoft. Thus, it would draw the strongest response from the Evil Empire(tm). It would make the Microsoft vs. Netscape war look like a fistfight between children. It would be GLOBAL THERMONUCLEAR WAR. No more MS Office for the Mac ever again (this will matter to some). No more Silverlight for Mac OS X (who cares). No more cooperation on anything (e.g. iPhone and MS Exchange). Microsoft would also greatly increase its efforts to directly compete with Apple in areas where Apple has strength: Online music, portable music players, artistic professionals, etc. I am unsure Microsoft would have much success with this.

** If Mac OS X for the PC was successful and got say 35% of the market, it would certainly take the U.S. government antitrust enforcers off Microsoft’s back. Microsoft would then be more aggressive than ever. In fact, we might even see Microsoft-branded PCs for the first time in order to compete directly with Apple on that as well. It would turn the marketplace upside down.

I would like to see Mac OS X for the PC. But, I would much rather see Linux take 35% of the desktop market. 🙂

I am on the Linux side also !

In reply to Mac OS X for the PC

I think this part would be interesting
[i]** If Mac OS X for the PC was successful and got say 35% of the market, it would certainly take the U.S. government antitrust enforcers off Microsoft’s back. Microsoft would then be more aggressive than ever. In fact, we might even see Microsoft-branded PCs for the first time in order to compete directly with Apple on that as well. It would turn the marketplace upside down.[/i]

And I would buy a Mac OS for PC’s also just to see how it worked . . as a Mac computer is a bit expensive for me . . Social Security is not a lot of money . .

A real TerraFlop for sure…

In reply to The Perfect Computer For Vista… (Tongue in cheek)

… Just how many years would it take to boot, then have the WGA “discover” one of the processors is “foreign” and shut down the system!!!

Doubt

In reply to A real TerraFlop for sure…

it would every run Windows or a form of OS that could simply be bought on the street so we will never know I guess.

Why would a system with the most processing power in the world take a long time to boot anyway?

Who knows?

Long time to boot…

In reply to Doubt

Its not the procesing power – its the OS 🙂

Two different OS’s on same hardware, Windows takes over 3 minutes to boot, and the other takes 1 minute 30 seconds… so booting is not necessarily related to the speed of the hardware, but more probably related to the services it needs to load.

What I mean is

In reply to Long time to boot…

with that amount of processing power the boot time should be a small matter!

we are not talking about a dual or quad core here or a standard RAID / SATA configuration. All the I/O bottlenecks have been ironed out!

Well I am guessing that

In reply to Doubt

Maybe they have to slowly bring the ga zillion processors on line with the big bunch that starts up on first switch on . . Like the lights in a big Factory you see them come on in banks as they flip the switches . . Would take one heck of a power supply to run that or power supplies plural . . Or they do not have it made yet and it would take that long to put it all together and get it sync’d up . . And windows COULD NOT handle the memory of this computer and it would CRASH . . before it got past checking memory 😉

The BIOS checks the Memory First

In reply to Well I am guessing that

then Vista on boot. If Vista finds a memory problem it just stays at the green bar’s loading screen forever without telling you why!

Although just because there are a lot of processors does not mean there is much more of the memory!

Perfect Computer

In reply to The Perfect Computer For Vista… (Tongue in cheek)

Some time some where these super computers will wake up and be Semi Alive ! . . BUT the power it takes for this SUPER COMPUTER ( 3 megawatts ) I hope its running one of the Linux O/S versions . . That will be strange to have a computer that is on a AI O/S and become self aware and begin taking out the MS computers around the world to protect its self from invaders ( virus’s / worm’s ) . . And the terminator is born LMAO !

Called M$ Today…

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

Called M$ today to obtain a CD key for Office XP… Installing it for a friend using his software, but he lost the key. Talk about pillar to post and post to pillar… asking where is was bought – why it was bought – what was it bought for… The one says its a volume licence, and another says it is not… If Microsoft do not know what software they issue, how on earth can any usual person know?

OK – Phone FORD and ask for a car KEY

In reply to Called M$ Today…

Go on then….

Been there done that…

In reply to OK – Phone FORD and ask for a car KEY

And I got it fairly easily thank you…

Tell me…

In reply to OK – Phone FORD and ask for a car KEY

What exactly was the point with this question? When I give the complete details to M$ and THEY get the information wrong about their own software, telling me that a retail product is a volume licence, then I think M$ is at fault and is certainly NOT to be compared with obtaining a key from Ford or any other place for that matter.

Consider…

In reply to Tell me…

How many copy’s of the software was sold?
Did you buy it direct from MS?
Who did you buy it from?
Were you sold a volume copy by your reseller then?
Perhaps you should contact the reseller as ask them why this is the case?
Perhaps what you were sold is illegal?
Perhaps it was a bundled version that is in fact a volume copy from an OEM maker?

As for the comparison:

Well you call X company to get a KEY to make Y product work. Quite sound in the comparison I would say.

Too many assumptions, there, I think…

In reply to Consider…

You are off the point to my original message… The product was a retail version, and not illegal. However, the point was this… I phoned up customer services, and gave them ALL the information THEY requested… and THEY told me it was a vloume licence, and put me through to the volume licensing department… The volume licensing department asked to give ALL the exact same information (which had already been inputted onto the database in front of him… but I answered all the same questions. I was then told it was a retail version, and put me back to the department I had first phoned.

Please tell me, what relevance do your comments have to this process? Further, if this has not happened to you, then I do not think you have called Microsoft for assistance, as this is NOT the first time, Microsoft have done this… it is every time I have called them, and it is more than 10 times…

Why would a Student

In reply to Too many assumptions, there, I think…

need to call MS more than 10 times. What you are telling me does not add up.

Have you tried phoning more major companies around the world?

The process seems to be repeated throughout!

TechMail

In reply to Why would a Student

You are making assumptions based on something you do not know, and never will. Tell me, you are an IT manager? The last one IT department manager I had to deal with did not even know how to copy and paste. I worked in IT for a number of years… and I will leave it there.

TechMail – missed the point again

In reply to Why would a Student

The only process repeated here, is you missing the point made and taking things out of context.

I think he was refferring to

In reply to Tell me…

The hassle you have had and the fight he had to get things done by a [b]BIG COMPANY ![/b] Some times the little people get dropped thru the cracks and never get up again or if they do its a long time in getting up . . So have you got them up and running right yet, or is it an on going fight ? Need to talk to a supervisor of the person you spoke to hahahaha that never works either nothing like COA of Big company !

The Problem was resolved

In reply to I think he was refferring to

There was no need for a supervisor… the problem was solved.

Well since they fixed the 0 to a 1 thing

In reply to OK – Phone FORD and ask for a car KEY

I have to reply here . . There are things hardware WHICH Linux see’s just does not have a driver for it so it says hey there is a this piece of hardware I can’t run YET . . It knows what it is even names it ! ! Like it knows the ADS Tech DVD express is there tells me what port and the rest just does not know how to use it So I got to make a driver and hopefully load the software in Code Weavers for running the hardware . . Until then I got to run ( insert nasty words here ) windows to run the hardware . . But I am slowly making changes to get out of the windows being there . .

Might be able to convert them to

In reply to Called M$ Today…

Put a computer with Linux installed beside theirs and load their doc’s with the OPEN OFFICE in Linux and MAYBE they will convert to Linux ( would look good too and kinda a good selling point ) . . It would really make them think about it . .

Bravo

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

You are not alone.

I am trying to figure the best and most empowered way to send the message that MS must be held accountable for the Vista disaster.

I have been with Microsoft since 1982 and have been through all the DOS and Windows versions, and all the frustrations of discovering problems before MS had solutions. I have been patient.

And, at last, for the last 4-5 years, stability arrived with XP and its evolution to XP2. At long last, I was able to sail along, pushing my computer beyond its alleged limits and utilizing an uncommon array of programs.

After a HD failure in April, I bought a new machine with Vista. And since then, have spent an inordinate amount of time everyday dealing with yet another problem anytime I make the slightest change or add a new program.

The frustration goes beyond mirroring the days of Window 95 and 98. The problems are exponentially greater, and continue to cascade. Just when I feel I’ve mastered all the issues, learned all sorts of new ways of doing things, established new habits — Wham! I have to spend another hour or two with a new program — usually spending half of that time digging for solutions since the Vista Knowledge Base remains so primitive, and Help seeking for common problems ends up at a dead end.

I’m installing a 2nd hard drive and going back to XP.

The tech savvy are going nuts with this. Can you image what the average user is experiencing, especially when an MS Knowledge Base search leads to a suggestion to change registry settings. Many of us have been through that and know how to do it…but the average user?

The Google issue with file search is not the only way MS is preventing the use of other programs. Anyone who has tried to make Firefox the default browser finds that Internet Explorer always seems to intervene. Many manual fixes are needed.

And try to use an alternative to Windows Explorer, e.g., the masterful Zabkat xplorer2.

Blah, blah, blah …

Sorry to hear about your Vista nightmare

In reply to Bravo

.
Sorry to hear about your Vista nightmare. I think the best way for us users to help ourselves in the short and long run, is to switch to something other than Windows as much as possible. This also holds Microsoft accountable for its stupid arrogant behavior and sends a strong message that the Evil Empire(tm) will understand.

Many people cannot completely leave Windows for one reason or another (myself included). But, we can restrict Windows (XP or 2000, not Vista) to a little virtual machine on an X86 computer running Linux, or one of the new X86 Macintosh computers. Then, we can run only what we absolutely must run on that Windows VM, and only until it is no longer necessary. Everything else can be done very well in the native Linux or Mac OS (office applications, e-mail, web browsing, graphics, multimedia, etc).

Since I originally posted here, I have switched to Linux as my primary OS and OpenOffice instead of MS Office. I’m quite pleased with the move. There have been some bumps along the way (to be expected), but I overcame them. And, I have next year to look forward to. There is continual improvement in Linux. And, that freedom from tyranny and the incessant malware attacks is…priceless.

Thanks for your post. And, whatever you do, all the best to you.

Thank you

In reply to Sorry to hear about your Vista nightmare

Your civility is refreshing, your observations sensible, and your solutions in line with the actions I’m pursuing.

I can’t leave Windows totally, but am returning to the relative pleasures of XP. Concurrently, I have been migrating what I can to the Mac.

And although I have been wanted to install Linux, that will have to wait a bit since my learning time currently must focusing on enhancing the knowledge I need to launch a new information portal.

Your comments about MS are right on. And I certainly plan to do my part to educate and empower others.

Thank you for good wishes. Likewise, to you, all the best.

What you can do is ? Burn a Data DVD

In reply to Thank you

I did that with my move to Linux . . Burned all the other files to a DVD-RW since I got a lot of them and then since the Open Office programs will open the MS files . . I only have to run Win 2K pro to get on line ( USB720 Broad Band Modem and run the ADS tech DVD express hard ware and software ) Done inside Linux using VMware-server its cheating but it works I got Code Weavers so I can run some programs directly in Linux that were windows stuff like my Quicken got years of stuff there could not go far with out it ( keeps the banks honest ) and I know what left for me to spend

“hour or two with a new program”

In reply to Bravo

NEW PROGRAM…KEYWORD – “NEW”
So are you not willing to learn something NEW?

Sarcasm…

In reply to “hour or two with a new program”

Are you usually this way, or is this just a good day?

It is clear… there is not a lack of willingness to learn… further, do you use Vista? Or do you too experience problems with it?

The English Language…

In reply to Sarcasm…

Are you usually this way, or is this just a good day?

Quote “do you use Vista? Or do you too experience problems with it?”

Look at that logic!!! WOW!
X OR Y

1 OR 1 = 1/YES
1 OR 0 = 1/YES
0 OR 1 = 1/YES
0 OR 0 = 0/NO

You would never get the answer you are looking for from that!

So to answer your question – 1/YES

Back to ‘Predicates 101’ for you I think!

Finally to quote the words you are referring to with your last post:

“Wham! I have to spend another hour or two with a new program”

That sounds like the learning is NOT welcome to me!

What is that horribe noise?

In reply to The English Language…

Ah, it is just Shaun.G thinking about a comeback.

If we are really, really lucky it may actually be logically sound AND in structured English.

Hold on a second….

Wait, hold the horses people!

Hell has not frozen over – the AND condition may not be met. Sorry to get all our hopes up.

This is funny

In reply to What is that horribe noise?

You also missed the “OR” condition ! And the rest of them in logic there is a “NOR” and a gob more ! Jeez that was long ago Logic circuts and testing them . . Some of them; get up throw a hammer at the wall and come back and work on them some more 😉

Missing the point

In reply to This is funny

TechMail missed the point of the topic that was initially posted.

Well, if you took the constant high

In reply to This is funny

off the input to that OR gate, you might get something out of it! :^0

TechMail

In reply to The English Language…

Instead of sarcasm, say something constructive – or rather better still – shut up.

What like…

In reply to TechMail

Crane

Bulldozer

Steel

Bricks

and so on…

What like…

In reply to What like…

You mean you know what these items are? Impressive.

Shaun.G

In reply to What like…

Shaun.G
How about instead of your sarcasm, you say something constructive – or rather better still – you shut up!

I guess you cant follow your own advice!

TechMail

In reply to What like…

Perhaps rather you should grow up a little.

Then perhaps Shaun.G

In reply to What like…

You should heed your own advice.

Get back to your

“desire to set up a global organisation to unite all in the combat of cyber crime in all forms”

Sounds like an episode of Dogtanian and the Muskehounds – LoL

Context you will not have here!

In reply to TechMail

.

“Rather better still”

In reply to TechMail

You have reached your maximum English level.

I think, rather, that…

In reply to “Rather better still”

I think, rather, that you refer only to yourself, and that you have stretched the little English you have learnt to its maximum.

Heeding my advice, I do very often, but it is suggested that you are unable to heed your own.

As for replying, I merely refrained from continuing with this foolishness, yes, foolishness, of swapping railling for railing, for it is folly.

Now with it what thou wilt.

Closed.

Think I will just leave it there.

In reply to “Rather better still”

Says it all really with more commas than a comma delimited file.

Outstanding…

(This was a direct reference to the Shaun.G post above and the amount of commas that were used in its creation – Shaun.G did not get the joke further highlighting his level of understanding, LOL)

😉 Thanks Fans 😉

Of course you will leave it there…

In reply to “Rather better still”

Yes, it does say it all and that you have no reply.

EDIT:

You rather go to google to try to prove something that is not true. Please look properly next time before making insinuations.

If you do not Learn

In reply to “hour or two with a new program”

If you do not learn SOMETHING NEW EVERY day you will have wasted a day in your life . . And how many days will you waste before you have gone ?

None…

In reply to If you do not Learn

Always learning…

learning

In reply to None…

Learning what exactly?

Willingness to learn something new is not the issue.

In reply to “hour or two with a new program”

Willingness to learn something new is not the issue.

To the contrary, I spend about 75% of every day learning something new, and put no limits on the amount of time I’ll spend solving problems.

My Vista issues are about its intrusiveness on productivity. The “hour or two” refers to tasks that normally should take 10 minutes.

I have over 150 programs installed, and use maybe 40 of them each week. I’ve had to adjust most of them, individually, for use with Vista. And even then, new issues continue to crop up.

Now in a cycle of working to launch a major web portal, Vista had wrecked havoc with my schedule.

My time is better spent learning other NEW things rather than re-learning an op sys that took over 15 years to work right.

Should not an effective op system run in the background — providing a stable platform for the real joys of computing?

Those of us who know how to troubleshoot, research solutions, and problem solve — and are willing to do so — are in the minority. The great majority of users out there have no idea what a command prompt is or a registry is or a hotfix is, or why Vista is creating the havoc so evident on all the serious discussion and tech support boards. Just ask MS tech support personnel about their experience with Vista users. I spoke at length with one last week who,(before the news broke) worked with me to discover that Virtual PC DOES work with Home Premium. She opened up about Vista being a nightmare for MS tech support.

I find it offensive that at this point in computing history, especially after XP SP2 had become the smoothest running OP system MS history — MS unleashes a system with such a time-intensive learning curve, unsolved issues and continuing cascade of new issues every day, and demands to spend so much time and money.

I settled in to Office XP + Ofice 2002 — and feel no need to upgrade nor spend hundreds of dollars on Office 2007. But I resent all the time it’s taking to stabilize it under Vista. But no matter how much time I spend, even running it in SP2 compatibility mode, problems persist and new programs crop up every day.

I do view mastering Vista as a challenge, and will eventually do so.

But as with all MS products, it may take quite a while for the system to reach the level of stability and ease of XP SP2.

In the meantime, I can better get my work done, learn many new things and create many new things — by going back to SP2 for PC necessities, spending more time re-directing many tasks to my Mac, and learning Lunix.

P.S. About learning

In reply to Willingness to learn something new is not the issue.

Ultimately, the degrees of issues and problems with Vista correlate with one’s computing profiles and needs.

My particular needs, and those of many others, find Vista to be a train wreck.

But there are some people who may be sailing along with it. May their days be fruitful.

BUT – if you have ever tried to teach MS computing to the average person – I hope you have been overwhelmed with empathy for their plight. Most people won’t even click “Help” and can’t grasp why there are 5 different ways to do every task.

While I whizz along on my own quest to learn so I can better research, organize, manage and process mammoth amounts of information, and create user-friendly and accessible web sites — part of my work is about teaching others effective and productive computing.

My Vista frustrations are, in part, about them. Try explaining how to resolve Vista issues to someone who does not even know to use Windows Explorer, or use a Help file, or format a document, or clean up their desktop, or backup their data, or . . .

So enjoy your learning … But, in that process, take some time to learn something new about empathy and teaching and serving the masses who may now be as able as you are to learn.

Yeah your right about that

In reply to P.S. About learning

So how much hair do you have left 🙂 I have some people like that I have considered unplugging the phone at times . . getting them to look at the correct corner of the screen is fun I have considered getting the Program “Go to my computer” for them so I can sit here and show them how to do it . . So I do not sit here and come un glued at times and sip brandy for a few hours to calm down . .

We know that but now and then

In reply to Willingness to learn something new is not the issue.

We see the same stuff and throw a small pile of stuff at some one to get them to sit down and look at it in some other way sorta reverse engineer it and the what shoulda been 15 minutes is back on the time line . . AGAIN ! OK ? Your to close to the tree and need to back up to see the leaves, limbs instead of only the piece of bark on the trunk . .

THANK YOU, amc1948!!!

In reply to Willingness to learn something new is not the issue.

Others probably cannot imagine just how good it is to read what you have just written and have it state – precisely – what I, and, … quitetly, many thousands have tried to say, only to be shouted down and called a moron for believing that an OS should be the Servant, and not the Master Control of our tools.

TRON is surely still with us, and the users are not allowed to function without “clearance” from Master C.

This is what unavoidably happens when greedy cruds take over any “service”; as it was with Cain and Abel, so it is with M$ and users.

It’s a shame that thousands of years of history have reproven, in cycles, how that those who are greedy only know value in terms of money or property or power over others. Gates, Balmer, Jobs, and their minions are, intrinsically, worth nothing; they grab and cheat and all in the name of money, power, influence, … anything to prove they are worth more than they know themselves to be.

“Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.” (Thomas Jefferson)

It’s not just M$ or iGrab; now that FireFox is exponentially more popular, they want to monopolize the processor! Again, what may have been a tool becomes a weapon of mass destruction of and for the user.

I can remember, fondly, when C/PM was fast and power users preferred it or DEC-VAX to the slow, ever troublesome M$-DO$, but were forced to use it because it was able to become a monopolistic monster. Even the DOJ has been (willingly???) helpless to stop or even tame it.

Yet, today, we have gurus who call me (and most likely include you as well) morons, or M$ ba$her$, and extol the “virtues” of “Capitalism”, and Monopolistic “competition” as though that what was made this – or any – country great. They seem smugly satisfied with whatever is spewed from the bow of the Mother$hip as though it is a revelation from god, herself. I can only conlude that they do nothing with their time; they have nothing to produce, no thoughts to express from within.

Well, I have waxed redundant, so let me finally repeat: Thank you for your exquisite dissertation as to why many of us do not embrace Vi$ta as the new $avior of data or creativity.

Should have seen it coming…..

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I know several people that beta tested Vista and told microsoft that it was loaded with problems. So much for that program. This is such good advertisement for Apple.

-Dawson
http://www.computer-forensic-resources.com

My Domain

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

As my domain has NOT been listed by me, nor have I appraoched any search engines to list it, then what you see is not my doing.

Just because google says something, it HAS to be right… that view is incorrect. There is NOTHING on my site that will harm a pc, as there is nothing there apart from css coding, and html.

Furthermore, if you read correctly, you will that my domain is NOT listed as harmful at all. The site http:/interstitial?url=http://www.c9m.cn/b2b/khfk/default.asp?page=968 is listed as harmful. At least look when you read before making the insinuations you are making!

Quote from GOOGLE:

“OFSEF: Organisation For Safe Electronic FrontiersOFSEF: Organisation For Safe Electronic Frontiers is a nonprofit group working to institute cyber governance and the protection of the individual.
http://www.ofsef.org/ – 19k – Cached – Similar pages”

The harmful site is, again the GOOGLE quote:

“?在线咨询 – [ Translate this page ]This site may harm your computer.
主题: cheap generic cialis qgsywp@ofsef.org. 内容:. cheap generic cialis …
http://www.c9m.cn/b2b/khfk/default.asp?page=968 – Supplemental Result – Similar pages”

TechMail, now shutup and growup, is it clear? You are a waste of time and space, and I am tired of your impudent petulence.

qgsywp@ofsef.org email address

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

It is a non-existant one! My domain is registered through BT. And if you have any knowledge at all about IT, you will know that ANYONE can put any email address up they like.

I did not re-enforce anything…. you made insinuations, and did not bother to verify them before putting up the post you have put up.

Did you even bother to check the information at all? I would hazard a guess and say no, you did not. Did you bother to message me and ask? No, you did not… instead you put up some rubbish, in order to discredit me… this to me shows you have no integrity or ethics. It could have been solved by a simple message.

In fact, google does not say I am a fraud, if you would be bothered to read what it says about me… the other has NOTHING to do with me, it is some Chinese, Japanese or similar site, which is blatantly clear.

Tell me, did you run this supposed check on any other search engines? I would again hazard the guess that you did not. Just because Google finds something, does not mean it is correct.

END Game

In reply to qgsywp@ofsef.org email address

All the information I presented was taken from a 3rd party source. I took this information and questioned it openly.

Your mistake here was to ‘post’ this post:

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=212977&messageID=2268596

Now lets call it a day.

[i]KNOCK IT OFF, TECHMALE![/i] X-(

In reply to END Game

.
Knock it off, TechMale! You’re just stirring up trouble, as usual. It’s not as funny as it used to be. In fact, your ridiculous accusations against Shaun aren’t funny at all.

The facts are: (1)

** Google identifies a CHINESE WEBSITE (c9m.cn) as potentially harmful, not the ofsef.org domain.

** Who knows why Google appears to show an e-mail address in the ofsef.org domain that apparently appeared ON THE CHINESE WEBSITE at some time (it’s not there now).

** Regardless, Google said nothing about the ofsef.org domain. YOU DID.

Did that e-mail address not respond to your desperate query about “cheap generic cialis”? Is that why you are so riled up?

:^0 :^0 :^0

Knock it off! It’s not funny anymore.

——————————————

(1) Google of ofsef.org
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=ofsef.org&btnG=Search&meta=

But…

In reply to [i]KNOCK IT OFF, TECHMALE![/i] X-(

As pointed out the first insult in the game was thrown by Shaun.G

However…

Do you honestly think I give a rat?s *** what you think about it all?

To Finish….

“An indignant user who has had a previous normal relationship with the group is not a troll, even if the user uses methods of attack that are characteristic of a troll attack.”

As taken from…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

I dunno . . .

In reply to [i]KNOCK IT OFF, TECHMALE![/i] X-(

You’re pretty trollish a lot of the time, TheTechMail. Your relationship with many of the people here at TR has long been something other than strictly “normal”.

. . . and it boggles my mind that you couldn’t figure out that OFSEF and the site labeled “This site may harm your computer” are two entirely different websites.

TE2 and Apo

In reply to [i]KNOCK IT OFF, TECHMALE![/i] X-(

Thank you for agreeing with me 🙂 it is very much appreciated.

Boggles indeed

In reply to [i]KNOCK IT OFF, TECHMALE![/i] X-(

like the number of US and UK people who bought the WMD story (and still stand by it despite no weapons being found). If this can happen then anything is possible!

DP

In reply to [i]KNOCK IT OFF, TECHMALE![/i] X-(

like the number of US and UK people who bought the WMD story (and still stand by it despite no weapons being found). If this can happen then anything is possible!

Wrong TechMail

In reply to END Game

The start point was this post of yours…

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=212977&messageID=2268442

I just stood up for another member that you needless denigrated by saying something that had no basis!

Now Wait a Minute – that is 100% incorrect!

In reply to Wrong TechMail

Firstly there was nothing wrong with the comment. If you look at the full context & text it came from, the person is complaining about having to learn something new in order to run Vista.

See: http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=212977&messageID=2267903

The Exact Quote – “The frustration goes beyond mirroring the days of Window 95 and 98. The problems are exponentially greater, and continue to cascade. Just when I feel I’ve mastered all the issues, learned all sorts of new ways of doing things, established new habits — Wham! I have to spend another hour or two with a new program — usually spending half of that time digging for solutions since the Vista Knowledge Base remains so primitive, and Help seeking for common problems ends up at a dead end.”

Secondly (and more importantly) the comment was *NOT* MADE TO or IN RESPONSE TO you ‘Shaun.G’ so therefore I did not START anything with YOU!!!!

My initial reason for the game stands:
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=212977&messageID=2271962

Unless you suddenly are amc1948@ ???????

You hurled the first insult and you know it fine well!!!

Care to reconsider the facts now?

I got your PM and did try to end this with the ‘END Game’ post. Looks like all the things said in the PM were untrue after all.

– Mind You – figured that out from the first line!

TTM’s Last Word

In reply to Wrong TechMail

Life is this thing that we all live, to one degree or another. Many people however don’t realize that life is a game of war, and we must all play for blood. Now I know this is a strong statement, and it is meant to be. Maybe not in the sense that you think though. What I am saying is simple. No one gets out of life alive, so we must play the game with all that we have as though life were ultimately at stake, because it is.

We can’t take life to seriously as we go along, after all, it’s only temporary. However, we must remember that this life is all we have, and we have to give it all we have. We have to play for blood, and that blood is our own peace of mind and happiness. So what would bring happiness to you and your life in the end? What would allow you to sleep every night with a sense of accomplishment and movement. You must be willing to play the game with everything you have, and give it all you got, because in the end, it is all you have.

Life is a game of war, and you must play for blood. Many people may take this statement as though I mean that you must do whatever it takes regardless of who gets hurt along the way, just as in war. This isn’t what I mean, however, what I do mean is that you must play the game of life as though your life were on the line. Ultimately it is on the line. Your well being, your state of mind, your emotional well being, your psychological well being. All of these are on the line. I see so many people who walk around their lives dead inside. There is no greater sadness to me than people who have given up on not only their dreams and happiness, but themselves. People who make excuses as to why it’s to late, or their to old, or they would if they could but they can’t because…. Life is short enough as it is, there is no need to make it shorter and wait for your turn to be put into the ground. Regardless of whether it be tomorrow or fifty years from now, you still have right now to begin moving toward your own happiness and well being in all areas of your life.

So what will you do now? Will you think about these things and decide to start taking action toward your goals and dreams, or will you allow yourself to shrivel up inside like so many people do? Will you begin to move toward your happiness and well being, or will you stay where you are and only hope and wish for your happiness and peace of mind? Every moment of your life is one moment closer to the end of your life. Every breath is one breath closer to the end. What will you do with those moments and each breath? Will you use it wisely, or let another one pass you by? Will you begin to discover what true happiness means to you, or will you simply hope that one day you will find it? Life is a game of war, and you must play for blood.

This will be an article that is uncomfortable for many people. Death scares people enough as it is, let alone having it thrust into their faces. However, this is something we must all think about at one point or another. Death is the only thing in life we must do, honestly, you can say no to paying taxes and you might go to jail, but there is absolutely no way to avoid death. It is a must for all of us, and all that matters is what we do from the moment we are born until that fateful moment we go back to where we came. We all start dieing the moment we are born, the only difference is what each of us does with the moments in between. When you are long gone and only memories, pictures, and stories remain. When your turn to meet your maker has come, what will you leave behind. More importantly, while you are here, what will you do with the time you are given. With the eternal credit card of time and life, how will you invest? Will it be a story that is worthy of praise, or another letter in the book forgotten once it is passed? What will your story tell, and are you actively creating a book that will hold the attention of audiences for centuries. The choice is yours, because ultimately, life is a game of war, and you must play for blood.

TTM’s Last Word “life is a game of war…”

In reply to Wrong TechMail

TTM, now you write something worthwhile reading!

Your statement “life is a game of war, and you must play for blood” is not wholly accurate though… It is not a game of war… it does not have to be that way at all.

You write “There is no greater sadness to me than people who have given up on not only their dreams and happiness, but themselves.” I have to agree, there is no greater tragedy than this, my sentiment is this “the tragedy is not failing to your goal, but rather in not having a goal to reach for…”

The reasons, though you discount them, are valid and invalid simultaneously… I quote “People who make excuses as to why it’s to late, or their to old, or they would if they could but they can’t because….” The reason that this is used is usually due to people not wanting to accept their responsibility to things or facts of life. Sometimes, people have set their expectations too high and fall, and should rather start with smaller goals, before reaching the bigger one. I never knew what I wanted, but now I do, and I am trying very hard, and succeeding where I was constantly told I would not, but I have my goal. You made fun of it… but my desire is to start an organisation to help people who are the victims of cyber crime (whatever form it takes – more especially those involved with chat rooms…) I do not believe enough is being done from the victim’s perspective.

“Life is short enough as it is, there is no need to make it shorter and wait for your turn to be put into the ground. Regardless of whether it be tomorrow or fifty years from now, you still have right now to begin moving toward your own happiness and well being in all areas of your life.” This is very accurate, and I agree.

Life is a game of exhortation, and encouragement… if we as people are not able to do this or achieve this, then life devolves into a game of war, when it does not need to be one at all.

We each have gifts and talents, and if we do not use them to better ourselves, and for the benefit of those around us, then we are the ones that loose… Our talents will be taken and given to another.

Ths choice is life and death, blessing and curse… I have chosen life… there was a time in my life that I didnt want to… but I overcame it and I am better for it. Choosing something less than life has a selfish outworking… The cemetary is full of broken dreams, unmade movies, or perhaps the cure for some incurable disease, through their untimely death due to war or something similar.

We each one are responsible and accountable for our own actions… We need to stand up and be counted and choose life, and life more abundantly.

OK Shaun.G

In reply to Wrong TechMail

I’m with you on this one!

Ready to put the past behind and start over? What say you kind sir?

(As you can see I will fight if required – ever need a hand just let me know!)

All is well that ends well…

In reply to Wrong TechMail

“Ready to put the past behind and start over? What say you kind sir?”

Aye, let us start over then 🙂 and all is past and forgotten kind sir.

End game…?

In reply to END Game

This is hardly ending it, and you well know it… furthermore, your new avatar… you forget that three fingers point back at you…

You were needlessly sarcastic when you had no reason to be, apart from some unknown fly in your bonnet over something that is irrelevant here in TR forums.

I did not start anything, and YOU are the one taking things out of context. The mouth really speaks from the abundance of the heart, and yes I did pm, but you continued and ignored what I said, which tells me everything. IF you cannot respond to things I said in a reasonable way, then do not respond at all to anyone.

Your problem is that you do not like when someone has opposing views to you… how do I know this, I been there, and I know. So loose your attitude, its not needed, or wanted here.

You say “Now lets call it a day.” but you didnt… if you were serious about it, then you would not have said anything at all now, and just left let it lie…but you did not and had to continue. I had NO intentions of saying anything at all till you made that insinuation about me. That was wrong and shows no integrity or ethics on your part.

If you are genuinely serious about end game, then write one post to this and say it is ended without writing anything more… but you see, I do not think you are able to do it…

Your reasons are invalid

In reply to END Game

I quote “Secondly (and more importantly) the comment was *NOT* MADE TO or IN RESPONSE TO you ‘Shaun.G’ so therefore I did not START anything with YOU!!!!”

Yes, you very much did start something, not with me, but you did start it by saying something that had no basis…

I am not amc… whatever…

The fact is YOU are in IT and should know very well indeed that VISTA is a waste of time… and what that one voiced was no different to everyone else… yet you have said NOTHING to anyone else that I can see… so why to say something now? You are wrong, and self-justification only serves to show that my commments to you are valid.

Like I said previously, if you are genuine about ending this, the write a post stating it is ended without saying anything else… but I seriously doubt you are able to do it.

L – Thanks for proving my points – post inspection – L

In reply to Your reasons are invalid

I quote “Secondly (and more importantly) the comment was *NOT* MADE TO or IN RESPONSE TO you ‘Shaun.G’ so therefore I did not START anything with YOU!!!!”

Yes, you very much did start something, not with me

(LOL – you just validated my POINT exactly – LOL)

, but you did start it by saying something that had no basis…

I am not amc… whatever…

LOL – You did it again – LOL

Then irrelevant waffle from Shaun.G-

The fact is YOU are in IT

(erm I am not in anything I work like everybody else)

and should know very well indeed that VISTA is a waste of time

(that is opinion and has nothing to do with being ‘in IT’ as you put it)

… and what that one voiced was no different to everyone else… yet you have said NOTHING

(erm, how about you look through the entire thread before you speak Sham.G)

to anyone else that I can see

(Lets think – TTM # 28 of the Top 100 – so I say plenty – again you lose – LOL)

… so why to say something now? You are wrong, and self-justification only serves to show that my commments to you are valid.

(don’t get than one Sham.G)

Like I said previously, if you are genuine about ending this, the write a post stating it is ended without saying anything else… but I seriously doubt you are able to do it.

(there you go ‘in your own words’ above as asked – there was no instruction to the delivery!!!!)

I’m hanging you out to dry Sham.G – you sound a bit wet around the ears for my liking.

I hope

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I hope that the latest incarnation of Windows spirs more Linux developers to make a more user friendly Linux distro that a basic Windows user can pick up and use right out of the box.

Hey retro77! Check this out…

In reply to I hope

.
Like your post.

I think Linux is ready for Windows users right now. If you haven’t tried it yet, I suggest you download and try the latest release of Kubuntu (the KDE version of Ubuntu) (1). It’s really quite remarkable. Linux has come a long way.

—————————————-

(1) Hot tip for Windows users: Try Kubuntu 7.04
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=212977&messageID=2228489

Try this one

In reply to I hope

PC LinuxOS comes very close. The apperance is, of course, different, but the user experience is very close to Windows.

http://www.pclinuxos.com/

Never Ever Ever will I go to VISTA!

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I rather learn a new OS like MAc or old Red Hat but Vista just carry’s too musch of a mask! UI is not userfriendly uless you total clueless and have no idea about PC’s!!

Great!

In reply to Never Ever Ever will I go to VISTA!

But you should be fixing your exchange OWA problems not writing some message that makes no real sense.

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=228846

15:0

OWA problems

In reply to Great!

TTM, I am thinking ywn@… is Russian, judging that there is an inability to open Russian email, hence the non-understandable English.

Hmmmm

In reply to OWA problems

I went on the London, GB tag and the ‘question’ in the question forum that was in good English.

Possible however…

Remember People!!

In reply to Hmmmm

There is no U.N here!

Mind you – not that it would make a blind bit of difference!

Rock ON!

Yep, that’s what I did

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I saw the writing on the wall 5 years ago and switched to
Mac. Not to mention some of the pure kickass apps you
can run on a Mac. I love Final Cut, it rocks. I do a fair bit
of editing, editing on the PC was always absolute crap.
Damn thing would crash and get audio out of sync and all
kinds of issues. Apple has developed by far the best OS on
the planet, it is compatible with tons of high quality
software, moreso than Linux and most of the Windows
based apps have Mac equivalents. The OS is easy to use
and easy to customise. You have a nice Unix terminal to
tweak around with. I could go on, but essentially I think
Microsoft can’t continue to produce crap and expect
people to buy into it.

Anyone have FEEDBACK on

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

Sorry if its in here somewhere already.

I am looking for feedback on a good 64-bit Linux distro that will work with either an Athlon 64 x2 6000 or an FX-62 processor and either a Gigabyte M59SLI-S5 or Asus M2N-SLI deluxe (not wireless ed.).

Thank You in advance

W2K do you have a favorite Distro of Linux?

In reply to Anyone have FEEDBACK on

If so it most likely has a 64 Bit version available and as the original 64 Bit Distro’s where developed for AMD CPU’s you shouldn’t have any problems finding one to suit your needs.

I have SUSE, Debian that I’m constantly using as 64 Bit OS’s but there are many more available. I’m not sure about Ubuntu or any of the other 1 Disc Linux’s but all the Multi Install Disc versions of Linux have both 32 & 64 Bit versions available and they are optimized for the AMD processors currently as the Intel Instruction Sets are no where near as well developed as the AMD ones are.

Col

Good to hear

In reply to W2K do you have a favorite Distro of Linux?

I prefer PCLinuxOS 2007, and SUSE 10.2. I did not see a 64-bit PCLinuxOS when I was there last.
Basically, I was interested in finding out if the FX instructions were good in Linux and would provide a better chip than the 6000. I believe that the FX is a Win gamer instruction set though.
And, I wanted to see if these boards have been used in 64-bit mode in Linux, and if drivers were good (at least most working/detectable).

SUSE defiantly has a 64 Bit version

In reply to Good to hear

Not sure about PCLinux 2007 as that is more of a single Disc install. But SUSE certainly has the 64 Bit option available and if you switch from a 32 Bit version besides an improvement in performance and storage you’ll notice very little different as it has the same look & feel as the 32 Bit version.

Col

HAL 9000 and 64 bit…

In reply to SUSE defiantly has a 64 Bit version

Col, you write that the 64bit gives “an improvement in performance and storage” but that we will “notice very little different as it has the same look & feel as the 32 Bit version.”

I am a student, a home user, and use it for office use too. What advantages would 64 bit give to me, irrespective of OS, please?

I do not know about 64bit, just know of it…so any information would be great. Thank you.

Shaun

Shaun think back to the DOS Days when everything was 8 Bit

In reply to HAL 9000 and 64 bit…

When we moved to Windows 95 we had the opportunity to move to 16 Bit and eventually in 98SE to 32 Bit. All of these where improvements that allowed more to be done in less time.

Now 64 Bit Applications should be the same but because there are so rare in the Windows World there is only one that comes to mind quickly and that’s Exchange 2007 that has more room in the Mail Boxes can store more Mail Boxes and Rules and simply work faster.

Or it could be M$ attempt to justify developing the 64 Bit 2003 Server OS. 😀 And an attempt to make people buy this product as there is no other reason to consider it for any business.

But when we look at Open Source Products that are 64 Bit they have the ability to work faster on the same hardware and manage to do more in less time. Just like every step up that has occurred in the M$ Environment over the past 20 odd years. The fact that we have been stuck on the 32 Bit OS for nearly 10 years now is more a testament to M$ inability to move with the hardware. Then because M$ doesn’t write any Mass Market 64 Bit OS the Hardware Makers and Software Houses don’t see any need to writ any 64 Bit applications for such a limited market that they would never get their money back that they wasted on development.

Sure XP has a 64 Bit Version but it’s useless just like Vista all you ever hear any mention of when it comes to Vista is the 32 Bit OS’s and never any mention of the 64 Bit Versions except those Ferrari NB that M$ handed out to the press in an attempt to push up sales of the 64 Bit Version of Vista. That didn’t work and I’ve yet to see any of the major wholesalers actually list a price for the 64 Bit versions of Vista though some have listed a price of the 64 Bit version of XP though to be fair they do show this as a [b]Special Order[/b] and not something carried in regular stock.

As I currently have 2 copies of XP Pro 64 Bit here both of which were given to me by M$ at different partner meetings I’ve yet to find any use for either though the thought of making them drink coasters is looking better all the time. I’ve actually loaded one copy but never activated it because I had major Hardware Issues and the complete lack of Drivers for the common Hardware that I had to test on at the different times.

Both SUSE and Debian install and work without a problem in the 64 Bit versions though I’ll admit that having Intel EMT64 CPU’s isn’t an advantage as the AMD 64’s are better written for and generally speaking work better in the 64 Bit Mode than the current crop of Intel CPU’s though this is slowly changing.

Col

I hope to be getting the NEW Debian

In reply to Shaun think back to the DOS Days when everything was 8 Bit

They have a new 3 DVD Debian Version out on Linuxcentral.com that I will be getting at the end of this month . . I like to test out the different versions before I stick my neck out to my customers and say USE THIS ONE to do all that with . . I do all kinds of stuff to it from inside to see what a user can destroy and how hard it is to fix ! ! Before I let my customers use it so I am ahead of the curve Or so I hope so . . But then I am not a newbie and might not think of what they think of doing to it 😉

DOS, WIN9x… :)

In reply to Shaun think back to the DOS Days when everything was 8 Bit

I remember those days.

Thank you for your reply, it is very much appreciated.

AMD 64-bit

In reply to W2K do you have a favorite Distro of Linux?

Yes, Ubuntu has had the 64 bit version for a while. That’s what I’ve been running without any problems (AMD Athlon 64 3500+ on Gigabyte GA-M55Plus-S3G).

Have you tried these

In reply to Anyone have FEEDBACK on

My web site has a computer geeks page with links to several Linux versions
I presently use Linux Mandriva 2007.1 its got a lot of things there but there are Ubuntu and PCLinuxOS . . Both are runnable in Memory or live CD before installing them so you can check it out before installing them . . If you need a LOT of help in running Linux I suggest LINSPIRE 5.0 as it has this [b]Monster Giant HELP[/b] file will lead you thru stuff like your totally dumb and do not know which key to push to do what . .
😉

Actually, as a ‘user’ I am pretty proficient with Linux

In reply to Have you tried these

and some of the command lines. However, mainly I was looking for feedback on the FX chip in Linux (does the FX do anything special in Linux). As the FX chip was (I believe) designed for gaming in Windows.

And while I was at it, I was curious as to those MB’s and 64-bit drivers in Linux. Currently I prefer PCLinuxOS, and PC BSD for 32-bit and many tasks, and SUSE 10.2 (bloatware) for things that just do not work properly in the other 2.

However, if a different version will work better in 64-bit mode on one of these MB’s, then I would definately give it a try.

Try a Fiesty 64 bit Live Distro ( Kubuntu 7.04 )

In reply to Actually, as a ‘user’ I am pretty proficient with Linux

http://www.torrentspy.com/torrent/1141442/kubuntu_7_04_feisty_fawn_dvd_amd64_iso

Available in DVD or CD form. AMD 64 bit.

No experience with it yet, but LOTS of experience with the 32 bit flavor on AMD/Intel machines.

I just installed a duo-core AMD ( it was a SEMPRON ) into a BIOSTAR tForce MB/nVida combination…and I will fire it up Real Soon Now…

Sort of

In reply to Anyone have FEEDBACK on

I’m using a 64 bit Intel chip with Debian, but since it’s not a server chip it uses the AMD64 kernel, not the ia64 kernel for Intel Itania or whatever. I can’t say it’s faster than Debian 3.1 on a 32 bit Athlon, but Etch certainly isn’t any slower, and I still have piles of packages available via Synaptic. So, if you’re still looking for a distro to check, Debian is my favorite so far based on range of functions and comparatively gentle learning curve.

3 Days!

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I was not aware of such an issue with Vista. Thank you for bringing this 3 day issue to my attention.

3 days (or even ZERO days!). Stunningly stupid, huh?

In reply to 3 Days!

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You’re welcome!

Since I made that original post back in February, I have found that sometimes Vista actually de-activates and [u]immediately[/u] goes into “reduced functionality mode” (i.e. you cannot use your computer). That is, sometimes you get ZERO days. Here are some real experiences I sampled (1) and a report about plugging in a USB device triggering de-activation (2).

This Vista and WGA nonsense is not a crisis. But, you have to factor this into your decisions. You know what my decision was: Never upgrade to Vista. Strategically move to Linux and Macintosh. Keep running Windows XP (or 2000) during the transition, and in a VM later (or an old PC). I want to ultimately be free of Microsoft tyranny and nonsense.

You can also choose to upgrade to Vista when it is ready (it’s not ready yet…maybe SP1 or SP2) and tough it out. It’s not “stupid” to make that choice. It is a decision with some trade-offs, like any other. You’ll probably have to suffer capricious de-activations on every machine you run Vista on. Probably on every machine, every year, maybe more often than that.

Whatever you choose to do, all the best to you.

——————————————

(1) Actual stories of de-activation from Microsoft’s “Vista Validation Issues Forum”
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=222826&messageID=2235539

(2) UPDATE: Normal use of USB devices can trigger Vista WGA de-activation
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=212977&messageID=2215786

In a corporate setting however

In reply to 3 days (or even ZERO days!). Stunningly stupid, huh?

with the WGA activation server running locally on the LAN (or WAN), would you still face these problems?

It is my understanding that is you install the Local WGA server then the Vista clients will contact this instead of the Microsoft servers. Due to this the activation sequence should be automatic and without problem.

Do you know if this is the case?

Local WGA server does not bypass the problem

In reply to In a corporate setting however

.
An answer and more…

[b][i]”…In a corporate setting however with the WGA activation server running locally on the LAN (or WAN), would you still face these problems?…”[/i][/b]

Yes.

As I understand it, the local WGA server is just a substitute for Microsoft’s WGA server on the Internet and it keeps track of volume licenses for you. Each Vista workstation will then “phone home” to the local WGA server which will also periodically “phone home” to Microsoft. Microsoft can still withdraw your activation keys if they are hacked or whatever. And, your workstations will de-activate at the next “phone home” event. You can still find yourself on the phone to Bangalore just like anyone else. Here is an example of a mass de-activation similar to what I am speaking about (1).

Even with a local WGA server, the same issue of capricious de-activation is still there. Workstations are going to de-activate capriciously. Users are going to have to go through the re-activation process.

Of course, the local WGA server is of no help to laptops that capriciously de-activate while executives, managers, sales, and customer support people are out in the field.

[b]The Fundamental Problem[/b]

In my view, the fundamental problem is the software-triggered capricious de-activation “feature” in Vista. In my view, once activated, a Windows system image should [u]never[/u] de-activate. It’s like a bomb just waiting to be triggered. It can be triggered by the periodic “phone home” event, Windows Update, USB device insert, software install or de-install, driver upgrade, BIOS upgrade, small hardware change, large hardware change (like XP), [u]malware[/u]!, bugs in the WGA code in Windows (has already occurred), and God knows what else.

[b]An analogy – The Toyota Camry[/b]

The Toyota Camry is stolen more often than any other car in America. Toyota could solve the theft problem by making all Toyotas contact toyota.com by satellite link periodically and immediately shut off the engine if the server said the car was stolen. Sounds good, but if it works like Vista, if that satellite link fails to connect when it demands to connect because you’re in an underground parking structure, or the satellite fails, or there is a bug, or changing the tires or replacing certain parts triggers de-activation, the Toyota will shut down falsely and unpredictably.

I would never buy a Toyota vehicle if they ever did something so stupid. Fortunately, unlike software, there is very healthy competition in the car and truck business.

[b]Microsoft is out of control[/b]

If Microsoft were not such a powerful monopoly, they would never attempt this, and they would never get away with it. They are abusing their power and all of us.

This is the most stunningly stupid thing I have ever seen a fabulously profitable Fortune 50 company do to solve what they claim is a serious “piracy problem”. Microsoft sold $40 billion last year and cleared $18 billion in profit. To be sure, there is a small percentage of piracy that adds up to billions of dollars. But those numbers are what most companies only dream of. Microsoft needs a lesson in perspective.

Did you know? U.S. Navy ships run Windows workstations, servers, and networks. Can you imagine de-activation occurring at just the wrong time? SNAFU courtesy of Redmond stupidity.

If Windows did not exist at all, we would all find a way to compute anyway. That is exactly what I have chosen to do. I’m just not going to play along with this nonsense. There are good alternatives and I’m taking advantage of them. And, those alternatives improve steadily every year.

————————————-

(1) Mass-deactivation of 2500 workstations
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=212977&messageID=2248678

You make some interesting points!

In reply to Local WGA server does not bypass the problem

The question is how to get from A to B.

Where I work the place is 100% Microsoft (Vista testing at present) and at home currently run XP Pro. How do I attempt to move way from what looks to be future problems???

I suggest…

In reply to You make some interesting points!

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I suggest you read this thread and others that are referenced. Moving away from Windows is a strategic project that is unique for each company or computer user (“A” and “B” vary greatly). It depends on how deep the “tick” is buried in your flesh. But, it’s definitely possible for everyone.

In my view, achieving freedom from Microsoft tyranny is an essential strategic objective.

All the best to you.

Thanks!

In reply to I suggest…

will read and learn all I can.

Actually this is a much bigger problem than some think

In reply to You make some interesting points!

But it basically depends on what Agreement the company has with M$ and if they are willing to continue that contract.

If the Company has a M$ only contract and will only use M$ products and the occasional piece of software that M$ doesn’t make they can sign up for some major cash benefits working this way. Or if they are on a Volume License with Software Assurance they will just be sent the new Software as soon as it becomes available with a license to install it to all of their registered Computers and any Home Computers that the staff may be using.

With SA M$ encourages the staff to take home and install a copy of the software so that they are used to it when it comes to the work computers. Seems that when M$ dropped this part of SA the sales of SA Dropped dramatically and they introduced it when it was obvious that Vista was coming in an attempt to encourage companies to buy a 3 year subscription for SA and get Free Software when it became available.

The next problem is that the Small Business who would normally be at the forefront of moving to different software also have their hands tied as they use the same accounting packages as their Accountants to save money. The Accountants get a Discount from M$ to stick to using M$ Products so they do as it saves them money and I’ve yet to find any accountant who will willingly spend money that they don’t need to even if in the end they go broke they have saved the money over the years so it’s better for their business. 😀

But the starting point here is not to adopt Vista at all anyway it’s not ready yet so it’s all a moot point right at the moment maybe in about 12 to 18 months this will be a different story but right now Vista isn’t ready for Mass Deployment across any company well at least not one that wishes to remain in business. The same applies to Office 2007 as you need to get anyone that you send Electronic Documents to to upgrade their Office 2003 installations to read the Office 2007 Word Document and if these are tenders and the like this just isn’t an option for most business. If they submit something that can not be read with the current crop f Software it gets rejected so that business looses out. This one thing alone from M$ I can not understand at all as it’s stupid and costly to their customers but what’s worse is that it has the ability to bankrupt the M$ Customers and remove a revenue stream in the future. While on th surface this may not appear as such a bad thing when dealing with Government Departments it’s a totally different story some still have Word Perfect 5 Documents in their archives which are used all the time.

What will happen initially is that quite a lot of Electronically submitted documents will be rejected as unreadable which will cause some companies to miss out on contracts but will defiantly affect every company at some stage when dealing with Government Departments who will eventually be forced to list the accepted Document Formats that they accept or move to PDF format files completely bypassing M$ all together.

Places like the Tax Man are the ones who are going to be the main ones affected as documents will be lodged but rejected as unreadable by the Tax Office or whatever it’s called and then problems will arise with Time Related Issues of submissions not being submitted on time and extra costs will be imposed on Business for failing to comply with their legal requirements.

That’s just one possibility and can crop up every were right down to the local councils for development applications which will be rejected as unreadable on the Councils older Software. This is a perfect case for not being at the [b]Bleeding Edge[/b] of technology as the costs incurred and loss of the ability to do business will cripple most business.

Now I know that you can save the Office 2007 Documents to the older formats but just how many end users are all of a sudden going to start changing the settings of a document when they save it? After all previously they have never needed to do this so why start now? By the time that business realizes what is happening if they ever do it will be miles too late for them and they will have fallen by the wayside and replaced by others who are less technically advanced because their electronic documents are readable to those that require this type of communication. What has made M$ Office so useful is the fact that you don’t need any brains to actually use it but now M$ wants end users to start to do something that was never required previously and most will never remember how this is done let alone that they need to do this before submitting the documents electronically. Just look at the examples of all the places that do not turn of the ability to track changes in Word Documents if I remember correctly even th CIA got caught with this one and it’s a common thing that everyone should know about. The fact that so many got caught recently only goes to show just how little the companies who use this software actually know about the technical details of what they are using or how to prevent something as simple as the above from happening.

Col

I sent a fax to Washington DC about this !

In reply to Actually this is a much bigger problem than some think

I sent gobs of Fax’s to Washington DC about this and the WGA problems
Plus the possiblity that ships could come to a sliding halt because of WGA on the computers on board decided they were Pirate software . . And then shut down the entire NAVY . . It would make MS a big red face hehehe 🙂 And NO ONE would want MS any more . . Not even the chinese

I *hate* the car analogy, but …

In reply to Actually this is a much bigger problem than some think

[i]it’s all a moot point right at the moment maybe in about 12 to 18 months this will be a different story but right now Vista isn’t ready for Mass Deployment across any company well at least not one that wishes to remain in business. The same applies to Office 2007 as you need to get anyone that you send Electronic Documents to to upgrade their Office 2003 installations to read the Office 2007 Word Document and if these are tenders and the like this just isn’t an option for most business. If they submit something that can not be read with the current crop f Software it gets rejected so that business looses out. This one thing alone from M$ I can not understand at all as it’s stupid and costly to their customers but what’s worse is that it has the ability to bankrupt the M$ Customers and remove a revenue stream in the future.[/i]

When the United States federal government began mandating unleaded gasoline, we didn’t have to all scrap our automobiles and buy brand new horseless carriages. The way I hear the story, old folks whine about having to purchase “catalytic converters”, not about having to replace the entire vehicle. Microsoft Excel 1997 should not be able to create files with all the features available in Office 2007, but Microsoft should offer an update to enable all previous versions to view/open files created in the newest version of the program having the same name. Otherwise, they are not different versions of the same program, they are different programs!

I don’t expect a diesel vehicle to be easily converted to burn ethanol. I do expect that the vehicle I buy today requires few, if any modifications to continue running through the end of its warranty. Is that unreasonable?

Look at things from the other prospective Abs

In reply to Actually this is a much bigger problem than some think

Right now most business run Office 2003 which can not read the new format without a patch. Now as a Business I can install the new Office Version on all my computers but it would be silly to expect all my customers to do the same thing. You can not instruct your customers what they will and will not do. It’s just the same as sending Electronic Documents in to Government Departments for any reason if that can not read it natively they will not accept it. Plain & Simple.

Yes you can resend it in the older format even though the formating does get messed up a bit but the problem here is just how many [b]End Users[/b] know how to do this? This is where the problems arise with anything new that fails to be compatible with at the very least the previous version of the same product. As you quite rightly say that it a [b]Different Product,[/b] but if it can not read the previous version of the same thing that is also a different story. But in Business and that is what I specifically restricted my comments to you have to work with what your customers can use or at the very least what the Tenders and the like that you put in can read. It’s pointless complaining that the Business/Government Department placing a Tender is not up with the times as they can not read your documents.

If the person attempting to get that job or sale can not supply something in a readable format that others can read it is useless to the Person/Company/Business. Until the places that accept Electronic Lodgment can specify exactly how or in what format they will accept Electronic Lodgment [i]which previously has been an easy thing to do[/i] you are stuck with something old just so you can be sure that the people that you are sending to can read it. Your only other alternative is to either know exactly who accepts what format which is impossible if you deal with quite a few different business or you just transmit everything in an old format then what is the advantage of upgrading to the new version?

It’s [b]Totally Pointless & Irrational[/b] to believe that you can dictate to another in what format they will accept something so it is usable or that they have to change their internal processes to read these documents. After working with Bureaucrats for many years I can tell you exactly what will happen to these documents they will ignore them at best they may think that the Attachment has got garbled in transmission and ask for another copy to be sent but 99 times out of 100 they will just forget about the entire thing and carry on regardless. Now if that was a tender you loose the possibility of getting that job but if it’s a Legal or Tax Document you can be in far more trouble than many think as the document which failed to arrive will not be acknowledged and as far as the [b]LAW[/b] is concerned you didn’t do enough to submit the documents in the allowed Time Frame.

Yes I know that these should always be sent on real paper as soon as the electronic documents are sent but the reality of the situation this just no longer happens as the Electronic Document has been submitted now and it’s a waste of money and time posting off a copy.

What made M$ useful even as recently as Office 2003 is now the exact same thing that is making life difficult for the new product. [b]It’s Now No Longer Easy To Use![/b] When everything is said and done that is the only thing that this will be measured by plain & simple.

Col

There’s a fix for the document problem

In reply to Actually this is a much bigger problem than some think

Particularly since, in most cases, you don’t wish the document to be altered.

Send it as PDF. [Almost] [i]Everybody[/i] has Acrobat Reader. Conveniently, OpenOffice allows export as PDF. Equally inconveniently, I don’t believe anything M$ has this capability.

Edit: runaway formatting

I was looking at it from that perspective, HAL :(

In reply to Actually this is a much bigger problem than some think

I picked just one paragraph of yours to quote because all I had to add at that time was the car analogy that I usually hate. But I’m agreeing with you, here.

Jeepers.

NickN: why PDF?

In reply to Actually this is a much bigger problem than some think

Why not .txt?

PDF will do the forms

In reply to Actually this is a much bigger problem than some think

that sooth the bureaucratic soul. Even South Carolina has javascript-enabled on-line forms (http://tinyurl.com/yo4hcc) that allow the end user to complete the form and print on the local PC or save as PDF (or both).

While .txt will support forms, it’s too easy to screw them up by not being in overstrike (or insert) mode when you complete the form. And I know I don’t remember all the ASCII codes for form outlines any more. 😀

And as I said, the PDF form cannot be altered by the recipient as easily as the word processing document

Edit: clarify (I think)

Thanks, Nick. That’s exactly what I was looking for.

In reply to Actually this is a much bigger problem than some think

“And as I said, the PDF form cannot be altered by the recipient as easily as the word processing document”

Shouldn’t we use paper forms whenever easy alteration is a [i]dis[/i]advantage?

Documents to Government Offices…

In reply to Actually this is a much bigger problem than some think

Whenever the company I was working for, sent documents to the Government, there were always specific requirements to meet for the documents.

The same, when people sent us documents, there were always specific requirements to meet. However, if the document did not meet, the company did try it best to read them, mostly it succeeded.

Perhaps setting a setr of requirements for document acceptance is a good way to go.

Anyway – just a thought.

The link I provided, ShaunG

In reply to Actually this is a much bigger problem than some think

may not have been the best example. This form can be completed on line, but must be saved and printed locally, signed, and notarized before submission.

There are other forms that can be submitted on-line, but the majority that I have run into require a physical signature.

For financial or critical personal requirements, paper is the only way to go.

Nick Nielsen: paperless society

In reply to Actually this is a much bigger problem than some think

All I meant was that perhaps some recognises standards ought to be introduced. There are various standards for things that are, in some cases, world wide. For example IEEE is a recognised standard (maybe not world wide)… medical terms are in latin, thus giving it international understanding.

Why not the same for documentation?

It was noted that “For financial or critical personal requirements, paper is the only way to go.” In this case, it is not always true. I remember the days when I had to fill out a form detailing the amounts, and their designations before I could withdraw money from the bank, and I had to provide Identification at the time of doing it. Where as identification may not have been world wide, certainly filling out the form to withdraw was… but this has been replaced now, with electronic cards… why not the same with all other forms of paper? I am sure there is currently enough technology available to achieve this.

I think the major thing that stops the move to a paperless society, is that as noted “critical personal requirements” is the major stumbling block. Or as my dad says, he prefer to hold something… as there seems to be a ‘form’ of communication between finger and paper. I too prefer a book or paper. It seems more authoritative in a way. People prefer paper. Its that simple I think.

No, I am not contradicting myself… I was just saying that the possibility is there to move to a paperless society, or at least I think it is there. And that perhaps some international standards on documents ought to be introduced, so that people like M$ or any other office suite, would conform to them. Though even with standards, the likelihood of it happening completely is limited, as the is the case with any standard, local or international.

Vista DE-activation Update

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

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[b]The Windows Genuine dis-Advantage (WGA)[/b]

As all of the smart people in this discussion know, Vista de-activation was a stunningly stupid thing for Microsoft to do. My realization of this came with Ed Bott’s February 2007 article (2). He has a new one out called “Problems arise with Vista’s activation system” (1). In this new blog article, Ed Bott is being exceptionally kind to Microsoft and they don’t deserve it. Regardless, I appreciate his exposing the truth and doing a good job writing about it.

Ed Bott’s latest personal de-activation experience went like this:

1. He visited Dell’s support website. It recommended he install two updated drivers for the onboard Intel SATA controllers on two of his Dell computers. He downloaded them.

2. After installing the drivers on the first computer, his Vista system immediately de-activated and gave him 3 days to re-activate. He had to call and speak to Bangalore to get re-activated.

3. Upon installing the drivers on the second computer, THE SAME THING HAPPENED. Back on the phone to Bangalore.

4. As a test (he’s a journalist), he un-installed the driver, and got DE-ACTIVATED AGAIN. Call to Bangalore a third time.

Ed Bott says:

[i]”…With the help of … Microsoft engineers, I learned that I’m not the only one experiencing this problem [TE2: No sh*t? This is clearly dramatic license. He did not need Microsoft’s help to understand this!]. Last month, when I first asked Microsoft for a comment on the story, David Lazar, who heads the Windows Genuine Advantage group, wrote back with this explanation, citing “a few open bugs that we have identified and are presently working to fix”…”[/i].

So, it’s just a “few open bugs”, huh? Well, this is clearly ANOTHER MICROSOFT LIE and I don’t care WHO is to blame. I’m not jumping through hoops like this over and over. Beginning with Vista, Windows is now FUBAR (f*cked up beyond all repair).

In the comments section of Ed Bott’s new blog article (1), there are a bunch of people complaining about their own Vista de-activation problems.

[b]In conclusion[/b]

Microsoft has taken a nice (but flawed) operating system that I like and used to rely on daily and has DESTROYED IT. It repeatedly and unpredictably de-activates on legitimate paying customers. Vista has a huge appetite for extremely fast hardware and it STILL runs like a pig. Windows XP was already obese. Vista is morbidly obese. This de-activation nonsense is certainly affecting essentially everyone who tries to run Vista (or it will), multiple times. The new Windows WGA (that debuted in Vista) is wound so tightly that it will NEVER be “fixed”.

Microsoft has DESTROYED WINDOWS.

—————————————

(1) Problems arise with Vista?s activation system
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=271

(2) Vista WGA problems confirmed
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=221

WGA continues to AMAZE ME !

In reply to Vista DE-activation Update

I really think this is going to be the downfall of Windows . . I wonder how many people are tied up on the phones per day to fix the WGA problems that get called in . .

If the above is an example of the hassles its causing ! It must be a big head ache for M$ . .
If they do not get it fixed in the first 9 months and real fast windows will like drop off the charts of people’s wants or needs and along comes Mac and Linux to fill the void . . 😉

WGA

In reply to WGA continues to AMAZE ME !

WGA = WindowsGate(s) Affair 🙂

Can’t help but wonder…

In reply to WGA continues to AMAZE ME !

… if M$ is going to treat their “customers” like the Cell phone company who terminated customers for too many phone calls???????

Too many phone calls…

In reply to Can’t help but wonder…

It strikes me that if a telephone provider has terminated users for making too many phone calls, they are cutting their nose off to spite their face.

PS can you reference this please – would like to read it.

I was referring to…

In reply to Too many phone calls…

… phone calls to the company regarding billing mistakes and technical problems; not to the overuse of minutes (for which they are charged = more billing).

That was the reason for the articles I read, and to which I referred in my comment. Sorry for the confusion; I reread what I had written and figured out that it lead in different directions if the reader didn’t know where I was coming from. My apologies.

No shirt, Jackie!

In reply to WGA continues to AMAZE ME !

I’m thinking about Microsoft’s “problem” with piracy, and I’m thinking about the primary means of installing their pirated products: optical discs. Now, I’m thinking about the different production methods of original discs as compared to pirated discs: pressing vs. “burning”, ie writing with a “laser”. Now, a lengthy philosophical discussion of the nature of black, white, grey, 0, 1, decimal numbers and Pi would be “out of scope”, but it’s very hard for me to believe that these different methods offer no means of creating pressed, manufactured CDs which, upon copying by optical readers would become gibberish, without any inconvenience to legitimate users. I just don’t buy it. WGA stinks, and I know I’m not the one who farted.

Gotta admit…

In reply to Vista DE-activation Update

… that I saw it coming,

with DO$ 2.11. Again (imagine y’all’r tired of this but) C/PM just worked, and worked, and worked. No, it didn’t have all the bells and whistles, but it worked, and worked, and worked. Same with DEC-VAX.

I was forced to switch to M$-DO$, and given a machine to use it. It was slow and flawed then, and is slower and more flawed now. Their main problem – as I see it from experience – is that they have destroyed all the threatening competition, so there’s not a lot of really good programming left out there to steal – oops! buy – and most of the best writers gave up and went into woodworking to avoid any more entanglements. I gave up trying to program in 1993, with the release of DO$ 6. It hasn’t gotten better, only more bloated.

To see that M$ is now condeming its cu$tomer ba$e is not alarming to me; it’s expected. They have nobody else to destroy, so why not attack the buyers? The public has no real choices; ask those who are sure that linux is only for hobbyists and nerds, and Apple is for kids and technofashion cult geeks. That M$ should be sabre-rattling is the only quality thing they can produce; at least there are no BSOD’s on sabres, … until the iSabre – coming to an ATT outlet near you.

Just call me “Rustie Blade”.

Windows Vista gives 90 seconds before unscheduled reboot :0 X-(

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

.
Found by David Berlind of ZDNet (1):

[b]Windows Vista forces unscheduled unstoppable reboots[/b]

I just found another reason why I will NEVER upgrade to Vista: Unscheduled unstoppable reboots with 90 seconds notice! X-(

David Berlind of ZDNet has a Windows Vista system he uses in his daily work. He has configured the Windows Update feature of Windows Vista to automatically download the many fixes that Microsoft continually pumps out for Windows. While in the middle of working with his computer, Windows Update decided it had to immediately apply an “important update” and David reports [u]it gave him 90 seconds to save his work before an unstoppable reboot would occur[/u]! (2) :0 There was a “Postpone” button on the dialog, but it was disabled for some reason. David reports it took at least 4 minutes to complete the reboot.

[b]Windows Vista: It is not your computer anymore[/b]

When you run Windows Vista, it is not your computer anymore. Microsoft will reach out and reboot your Vista system with 90 seconds notice and you cannot stop it (I wonder…servers too?). As reported previously, Microsoft will reach out and falsely de-activate your license with as little as zero notice.

This is just another reason why I will NEVER upgrade to Vista. Microsoft has DESTROYED WINDOWS.

————————————-

(1) Should Vista be able to force an unwanted reboot when it wants to?
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Berlind/?p=698

Vista to automatically download!

In reply to Windows Vista gives 90 seconds before unscheduled reboot :0 X-(

So the solution is not to set Vista to automatically download I would say!

You want to play rough? Okay. Say hello to my little friend!

In reply to Vista to automatically download!

.
[Tony Montana voice]
You want to f*ck with me? Okay. You want to play rough? Okay. Say hello to my little friend!
[/Tony Montana voice]

:^0 :^0 :^0

Windows Update is a critical feature of Windows, the operating system that is under continuous assault by malware. Windows Update is a critical [u]broken[/u] feature of Windows, thanks to more stupidity from Microsoft, the company that brings us “People Ready” software.

Only a stunningly arrogant and overconfident company would force unstoppable reboots on millions of customers with 90 seconds notice. Only a stunningly arrogant and overconfident company would falsely de-activate the license of millions of legitimate customers.

Microsoft can kiss my a**! I don’t buy from vendors who mistreat me like that!

So, the [u]workaround[/u] is to stop using Windows Update. Stop using this. Stop using that. Before you know it, most smart people will conclude the smart decision is to [u]stop using Windows period[/u]!

:^0 :^0 :^0

Stop using Windows Update

In reply to You want to play rough? Okay. Say hello to my little friend!

NO – Stop using the AUTOMATIC Windows Update. Either do it by hand (which I guess most other OS’es have) or use a management suite!

Funny thing about updaes

In reply to Stop using Windows Update

On my home system, the first thing I did was tell automatic updates to download and do not automatically install. This was a bad move, because I would be in he middle of something, and the system would just reboot on me.
I went in and it was not set as I had set it. So I changed it again. A few weeks went by and it was fine, then I was playing a game, and the system rebooted on me again. came back stating that it had been updated. Pissed off I looked and it was still set not to install updates.
The next week, same thing. I turned off auto updates altogether
but about once a month, it still seems to decide it has to update and reboot on me.

XP media center.
basically, no matter what, it decides that it is geting updates and my only control is o unplug the LAN or turn this POS off

Its like my Dad

In reply to You want to play rough? Okay. Say hello to my little friend!

I got to hit him in the head with a 2 X 4 to get his attention . . And MS is the same way . . When and only WHEN their sales make a dump are they going to listen to the customers . . I actually prefer it this way . . Gives me something to laugh at when I get up in the morning 🙂 🙂
I only wish I could get VMware-server to finish loading and get thru the config part some file is missing and I can’t seem to get it up and running yet . . . Or I would be out of Windows and inside of Linux . .

I have re downloaded the VMware-server.rpm 4 times as I changed the name 3 times so it would not be a write over file . .

I think it’s more complicated than that, #3

In reply to Vista to automatically download!

The option to “Restart Later” has been available in previous versions of Windows. The author wrote that it was “greyed out”. The solution is not to simply shut off automatic downloads of critical security patches, but to manage to install those without disrupting the [i]current user[/i]. This is not rocket science.

Now it’s final. I will NEVER upgrade to Vista

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I agree totally agree, no Vista for me.

Lenovo will preload and support Linux on ThinkPads

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

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Linux takes another big step into the mainstream…

Lenovo has announced that it will offer Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop 10 preloaded on ThinkPad notebook computers, and provide customer support. This is an expansion of a previous program where Lenovo offered Linux.

This is great news for ALL computer users. Obviously, it helps those companies and individuals who want to run Linux. But, it also will eventually help those who choose to stay with Windows. The stronger and more viable that Linux is as a threat to Microsoft, the better Microsoft will treat its customers (2).

————————————

(1) Lenovo to offer Suse Linux for its Thinkpad
http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/33243/145/

(2) But…I don’t expect to see any big improvements from Microsoft for a while. The Evil Empire(tm) must feel some heat (and maybe some pain) before it will react like that. When you sell over $4 BILLION per month as Microsoft does, it is difficult to feel anything but bliss.

Just Vista????

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I installed a new wireless bridge to XP and guess what???? I had to re up!!!! Nuts, eh?

XP has always had de-activation due to certain hardware changes

In reply to Just Vista????

.
XP has always had de-activation due to certain hardware changes. Vista is much more aggressive. Vista has been observed to de-activate and give as few as ZERO days before “reduced functionality mode” (you immediately cannot use your computer for anything) because of any of the following:

** Certain hardware changes (similar to XP).

** Run Windows Update.

** Vista is unable to “phone home” when it wants to (e.g. laptop on a cross-country plane flight).

** Plug in a USB device.

** BIOS upgrade.

** Install or uninstall software.

** Install or uninstall a driver.

** Run a new program.

** If a software pirate guesses the activation key that belongs to you and Microsoft de-activates the key for everyone (including you).

** A program touches [i]~something~[/i] that Microsoft doesn’t want it to touch.

** A sector fails on your hard drive on the [i]~wrong~[/i] file.

** Malware activity.

[b]Re-activation is no longer automatic[/b]

Re-activation is no longer automatic over the Internet. Sometimes you’ll have to call and “speak” to a computer (I *HATE* that) and type in a 50-digit number “it” gives you. Sometimes you’ll have to speak to a “Microsoft” person in Bangalore and transcribe a 50-digit number that person gives you..

[b]Aggressive de-activation is coming to Windows XP too![/b]

The same de-activation “feature” will soon come to XP through Windows Update (1). Maybe you can spot it and block it. Maybe not.

[b]I am switching to Linux and Mac OS X — Anyone can if they choose[/b]

My primary desktop runs Linux now and most of my apps are portable apps now (including OpenOffice) (5). It’s really not a sacrifice at all. I really LIKE Linux with the K Desktop Environment (KDE). When the time comes, I will replace my current ThinkPad (Windows XP) with a MacBook and run Windows XP/2000 in a VM. I still have some Windows apps that I expect to have to run indefinitely, and that’s OK. I currently run them on a second computer and plan to move them to a VM on Linux and Mac OS X in the future.

[b]Microsoft is insane[/b]

When I pay good money for expensive software like Windows and MS Office, I will not tolerate it capriciously de-activating EVER.

I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.

All the best to you.

——————————————

(1) *** ALERT *** WINDOWS XP DE-ACTIVATION is coming!! :0 :0 :0
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=212977&messageID=2185978

(2) Newsflash: Microsoft DEFEATS THE PIRATES
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=212977&messageID=2189458

(3) UPDATE: Normal use of USB devices can trigger Vista WGA de-activation
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=212977&messageID=2215786

(4) A few Vista WGA stories in the victims’ own words
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=222826&messageID=2235539

(5) The LEAVING WINDOWS Project
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=213495&messageID=2185615

Its part of the WGA problems

In reply to Just Vista????

Some of the NEW patches make the computer go into WGA stall mode just like you had “VISTA”
Its one of the reasons I am going to go to Linux as soon as I get 3 things working inside of Linux and only plug in this HD with windows 2K Pro on it 1 or 2 times a month so it does not go bad and back it up on a big drive reminds me time to re do the back up of a few programs so I do not loose stuff . . Replacing all the files on drive D would take days and months of work . . ( I carry copies of 6 WEB SITES on my Drive D ) just incase of a crash on the web . . Plus my own web sites . .

哈哈…支持你.

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I have tried Vista when it was release for several days(just the beta version).I found it just was a beautful gift ,not a computer system.
我支持你的行为..如果微软能让我花更少的钱来用它的系统,我会感谢这个软件”君王”.

hmm . . .

In reply to 哈哈…支持你.

Anyone here read Chinese? It appears to say something about supporting some behavior, and that MS Windows is “king” if ww830107 doesn’t have to pay as much for it as “we” (in the US) do. I think.

The title seems to be something like “Ha ha . . . I support you.”

Is there anyone here with the ability and desire to provide a better translation than that?

Translation

In reply to hmm . . .

Apotheon, I use http://world.altavista.com/ to translate and got much the same thing.

The Chinese to English translation of this message is…

In reply to 哈哈…支持你.

.
This is “simplified Chinese”. The Chinese to English translation of this message is as follows:

[i]Title: Ha ha.. Supports you

I support your behavior. If Microsoft can let me spend less money to use its system, I can thank this software “king”.[/i]

Special message to those of you in China

In reply to 哈哈…支持你.

.
I speak from very long experience with Microsoft and provide a dire warning.

Microsoft often is very helpful and accommodating when they are trying to dominate a new market. Things quickly change as soon as Microsoft becomes the dominant software provider and customers cannot switch away from them easily. This works just like a drug dealer who gives free drugs to get you “hooked” and then you come back for more and pay whatever he asks because you [i]~just gotta have it~[/i]. It’s insidious!

Microsoft’s evil game goes like this:

** Microsoft is very helpful and accommodating in the beginning. In China’s case, it includes charging a tiny fraction of the price in the West (about 1/40th the price).

** You standardize on Windows clients and servers and MS-specific infrastructure. You run MS SQL Server and MS Exchange (and other MS middleware).

** You standardize around MS Office for document exchange within a company and between companies.

** You develop custom client and server software that requires Windows.

** Once you are “hooked” on Microsoft and it is difficult to leave them, Microsoft raises prices and forces things on you that you don’t want (example: repeated WGA capricious de-activations and having to call Bangalore, India to get re-activated). For China, the price will rise about 40 times higher than the US$10 you are paying now. For us in the U.S.: Windows 95 upgrade in 1995: US$89. Windows Vista Upgrade in 2007: US$279.

My advice: Don’t make the same mistake that many others have made before you. You have the chance to adopt Linux desktops and servers, OpenOffice, and other open source applications NOW.

WGA capricious de-activation was the last straw for me. I’ve decided to leave Microsoft behind even though it is difficult to leave. I *CHOOSE* to switch to Linux even though I have been running Windows for 15 years.

Good luck to you!

Uncertain

In reply to 哈哈…支持你.

My wife says that the Chinese is not specific on his stance. The only thing that is certain is that cheep is good. Only more posting will really determine which OS he prefers.

That’s what I wondered.

In reply to Uncertain

Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

Just got to say…

In reply to That’s what I wondered.

This is not directed to anyone personally. I often come to the forums to gain some knowledge or to see the comments on certain things, like in this instanst on Windows Vista…after a few posts the subject becomes everything but the subject at hand and the personal name calling and disrespect for anothers opinion’s whether right or wrong gets to be a waste of time.I really wish TR would monitor these forums more closely so people who come here to get answers can find what they are looking for instead of daily rants…this battle over who is the best techy is very tiresome. We all have much to learn and will learn more every single day. I too work in technical support and there isn’t a day that goes by that I don’t learn something new.
This is the first time ever I have posted on a forum. Just my two cents worth….

What?

In reply to Just got to say…

What does that have to do with us trying to figure out what someone said in Chinese?

My sentiments…

In reply to What?

My sentiments exactly.

Seems the very fact of writing what was written is doing what he says others are doing… unless of course I am mistaken.

Welcome

In reply to Just got to say…

I notice that in true TR fashion, your first post is off-topic. :0

Afterthought: You’ll fit right in! :^0

Not exactly.

In reply to Welcome

If you want to “fit in” with the usual way of doing things here at TR, you respond meaningfully to the previous post — even if your response is off-topic for the main discussion thread. This wasn’t even on-topic for the previous post. It was a complete non sequitur.

If TR were full of non sequiturs like that, there’d be no discussion worth reading.

I’d like that.

In reply to Just got to say…

If you find another site with similar content, but without the petty bickering, please send me a peer message! Until then, welcome to the Mad Hatter’s Tea Party.

:^0

I’ll do just that…lol

In reply to I’d like that.

Thanks for the welcome to the party 🙂

Windows was deactivated due to a hardware change

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

That;s funny, I am using Vista since Beta 1 on three machines, 2 Home Premium PC’s and 1 Business ver. and have installed/uninstalled at least 50-60 apps. on at least 2 machines at a time and have also changed/added/removed hardware (Hard Drives, Video cards,Raid cards and memory and have had only 2 reactivate instances on 2 hardware changes. The first was a video card change and the 2nd was a 320 to 500 Gb hard drive swap. The hard drive swap required me to call Microsoft to reactivate and it went pretty fast. You may have some file corruption problems on a hard drive causing this.

Really!

In reply to Windows was deactivated due to a hardware change

You have Beta 1 installs that are still functioning, and only 2 of 3 have needed reactivation from HW swaps…

wow. My Linux boxes havent asked me to re-activate. And I used the same (non-beta) cd to install several of them.
I dont recall calling anyone to allow my system to work again either..

But I really, really am wondering why your beta versions didnt expire, and why MS would re-activate them???
Do I smell BS from your post?
Yup, that stink is very heavy!!!

Try reading the post

In reply to Really!

Actually, I think he said he had used it SINCE beta, like me, not that he was using the beta. I think he has omitted telling us that he is probably running the OEM edition of Vista (as am I) which doesn’t like hardware change as they think you are making the pc in preparation for selling it on, not running it for home use

Interpretations….

In reply to Try reading the post

The actual quote made was… “That;s funny, I am using Vista since Beta 1 on three machines, 2 Home Premium PC’s and 1 Business ver. and have installed/uninstalled at least 50-60 apps.”

And the response was… “You have Beta 1 installs that are still functioning, and only 2 of 3 have needed reactivation from HW swaps…”

Yes, the original post did say since beta…but no where does it say that BETA was stopped being used… you make the assumption based on what you have done. You cannot project what you did to someone else.

Further, W2 actually asked a question… to which no response was forthcoming. Thus, your posting is down to interpretations. And possibly, there are further interpretations that can be made. Suffice to say, that it shows simply, that you did not read the post either.

That is fine, but irrelevant to my post

In reply to Try reading the post

Basically, as stated it could be seen as still using beta Vista. But it doesnt matter anyway, it jumbles the beta with whatever is current, and HW and SW swapping didnt affect the betas, because they had a set date to deactivate and did not use the wga. So it is only relevant for any new version, which was not stated.

As for the final release, if it was used, what ver.? Not mentioned! So let us assume that is is not a corp license or MSDN ver.. At this, 2 reactivations out of 3 boxes, is still high. And my point was that other OS’s do not have this problem. Whether or not it is a quick and easy call to MS support to reactivate in minutes, just that it happens is a problem.
So whichever ver. of Vista, it is irrelevant. I cannot say how many HW changes were made on a ver. that deactivates, because the poster ONLY mentions the beta ver. in the post…

Furthermore, it has been documented that some SW can deactivate Vista. The SW that this person was using may not have been one that deactivated it, and the poster was trying to state that SW does not deactivate, and HW hardly ever does.
Take a look at all of the registered copies that HAVE deactivated to find the truth!

I call ‘bottom line’ right there.

In reply to That is fine, but irrelevant to my post

w2ktechman: [i]At this, 2 reactivations out of 3 boxes, is still high. And my point was that other OS’s do not have this problem.[/i]

That is proof positive that protection of terms of use does not technologically necessitate [i]any[/i] intrusion on or inconvenience to legitimate users. That Microsoft fails to take its customers into account is all I need to know about Microsoft: not on my network!

I went out and got

In reply to I call ‘bottom line’ right there.

There is a REMOVE WGA tool for those whom have the virus from M$ ! ! I have it and have removed WGA from my computer NO MORE stuff saying this is not usable by windows junk ! I even went into the Registry and removed it . .
Finally SP-3 came out so I have not got [ &$%#@&% ] ( insert nasty words there ) XP-Pro in my computer under Linux Mandriva i586 2008 DVD version . . its kinda jerky some times when the anti virus is running ( Major anti-virus program )

Bad, BAD! Vista!

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I have recently begun to check out several Linux operating systems. I will never purchase another Microsoft program. Not only does Vista literly take over your computer to best suit Microsoft, it eats up resources and runs slower and is more unstable than even XP. For the present, I run XP in dual boot with Ubuntu, and am trying two other Linux systems. Once I deside which I want, it wil be bye bye Microsoft!

Bad, BAD ! Vista !

In reply to Bad, BAD! Vista!

There is a place to see a lot of the other versions of Linux . . Go to http://www.linuxcentral.com and you will see a gob of them and its not much to deliver to your door . . Since I re built my computer with new Mother board and faster CPU Intel socket 775 3.4 gigahertz P-4 bigger Power supply ( 650 Watts ) and add 1 more gig of ram and a fancier Video card I now have a 64 bit able computer so I got the Linux Mandriva 2008 DVD version for 64 bit O/S It makes the Laptop I got with vista installed look SLOW . . Its why I deleted the “VISTA” and installed Linux Mandriva 2007 version i586 dvd version in it ( was only home version of “Vista” ) so not a 64 bit laptop . .

P-4

In reply to Bad, BAD ! Vista !

You can get P4 64 bit processors?

Actually you can !

In reply to P-4

I have a socket 775 Intel P-4 3.4 gigahertz CPU and a fancy MB which will take up to 4 gig of DDR ram and this is a 64 bit computer now even says so on the start up screen where memory is counted and it says 128 bit dual channel memory and next line is 64 bit then hard drives / DVD drives and fire up O/S like zip and its running like a scalded cat . .

Good Stuff!

In reply to Actually you can !

!

something else to try

In reply to Bad, BAD! Vista!

Give [url=http://pcbsd.org][b]PC-BSD[/b][/url] a try, too. You may find it to your liking.

I don’t use PC-BSD personally. I prefer FreeBSD. PC-BSD is a more specifically desktop-oriented, “user friendly” derivative of FreeBSD, in a manner similar to how Ubuntu is a more specifically desktop-oriented, “user friendly” derivative of Debian, except that PC-BSD shares more in common with FreeBSD under the hood than Ubuntu does with Debian.

Ubuntu is a pretty good introduction to Linux for people coming from the world of MS Windows. I think PC-BSD is an even easier introduction to other OSes than Ubuntu, and is more of a direct introduction to Unix than Ubuntu, considering some of Ubuntu’s idiosyncrasies.

Anyway, PC-BSD may be worth a try. If Ubuntu is up your alley, PC-BSD may be even more so.

This does not happen anymore

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

MS changed it.

What now?

That’s just one bug fixed, in a product marketed and sold publicly.

In reply to This does not happen anymore

So, my best guess to the question “What now?” is that M$ needs to do something [u]positive[/u] for their reputation.

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/support/live/serviceissue.htm

That’s not what I would call an “exciting” start to the New Year. And, previously known failures are still costing them:

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/support/systemuse/xbox360/resources/warrantyupdate.htm

Then, of course, we mustn’t forget their satirical (Oh, NO Bill & Steve, tell me weren’t serious with that!) “competitor” to the iPod:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/944909?sd=zune
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/945278
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/938069?sd=zune
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/945319?sd=zune
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/945030?sd=zune

These probably look like “just” routine KB articles fixing run-of-the mill malfunctions, to the average techie; that such malfunctions are common, and this KB format is so familiar to us, is not good at all for Microsoft.

Yeah!

In reply to That’s just one bug fixed, in a product marketed and sold publicly.

I felt the XBL issue over the Holiday period – was not impressed considering this was getting in the way of enjoying my downtime!

Now there is a group from Texas that are suing MS for 5 million over this!!

http://play.tm/story/15338

YoungEntrepreneurSociety

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

I am looking for plans to build a play grocery market for a local preschool for the homeless. Any ideas where to look? Thanks so much. If you can figure out the size and height you want the refrigerator to be then you can just improvise and make it box shape with doors, hinges and handles and for play food use empty clean cereal boxes etc. this are some of the business tips I found out, but still I want some more details about the http://www.YoungEntrepreneurSociety.com
and also ask your friends to submit me Please.

Nice Idea but…

In reply to YoungEntrepreneurSociety

how do you expect to get an answer on an IT forum about not upgrading to Vista?

Is It???

In reply to YoungEntrepreneurSociety

Enta Wannabe reincarnated?

Hmmm…

It looks likely.

In reply to Is It???

The writing style is similar; it is also similar to the SPAM I receive, in large volume, to my personal e-mail address.

So… are you still around?

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

Haven’t seen hide nor hair of you for awhile. I very much enjoyed reading your posts, the give and take between you and several others, the general tenor of your arguments.

Hoping all is well with you, and just letting you know that I am missing your input.

Its perty much decided

In reply to So… are you still around?

That Vista is dead on arrival ! And will take years before any one likes it . . To much stuff to change out for any big company to up grade to it and a lot to change out to get an older computer running with it . . So that is where it stands

Wow!

In reply to [b]Now it’s final. I will [i]NEVER[/i] upgrade to Vista.[/b]

What kind of idiot reported this as spam?

Some M$ fanboy, most like

In reply to Wow!

You notice it’s still here…. 😀

[Author]

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