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  • #2250180

    buy an iMac or a PC?

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    by bakwas.reg ·

    Hello everyone,
    Time has come for me to buy a new machine. I have always used PCs at home, work.

    I am now toying with the idea, that may be I should get myself an iMac. I guess what’s holding me back is I don’t know anything about Macs, never used them. As a result I am unable to evaluate the specifications .

    Also, is it difficult to do upgrades to memory, hard disk extra once I buy it.

    So is it better to get a PC or an iMac

    Thanks in advance.

All Answers

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    Replies
    • #3275392

      Clarifications

      by bakwas.reg ·

      In reply to buy an iMac or a PC?

      Clarifications

    • #3275387

      Get a Mac

      by now left tr ·

      In reply to buy an iMac or a PC?

      and then put your fav PC OS on it AS WELL as the Max OSX. It can be done with a little work.

    • #3275379

      Urge to get Mac?

      by onbliss ·

      In reply to buy an iMac or a PC?

      Then just get one.

      • #3275340

        Maybe…do some thinking first.

        by atroon ·

        In reply to Urge to get Mac?

        I’ve toyed around with the idea of getting a Mac for a while now, especially since the Intel based systems came out. I like the POSIX-based kernel as well as the OS, but I’ve consistently noticed a few things about Mac systems that follow on naturally from Apple’s position as a ‘cool’ company and a ‘maintain control’ company, as well as a ‘Zen simplicity’ company, viz. the image they’ve created for themselves in the post-iPod world.

        1) It is not possible in general to purchase a slower/older processor when you know you don’t need the top of the line for your needs. This translates into the fact that you will ALWAYS pay top dollar for a MacBook or any other product, because they continually upgrade the systems and they maintain the price while improving the hardware; many other manufacturers will keep the hardware around for longer and decrease the price on existing systems while introducing new ones at the top of the pricing tiers.

        2: Most Macs that I have spec’d, while being at the top of the line in processor, video, hard drive, etc. are almost always short on RAM. Plan on upgrading whatever you get with double the RAM that’s installed when you get it. A photographer friend of mine said his studio doesn’t even power on new systems before putting in more memory. It will smooth out your life immensely.

        In sum, you can get a Mac, they’re great systems, but you will pay for the greatness and the design and all the other ‘cool factor’ that go along with it. The question is whether or not you’re willing to shell out the cash for the intangibles. For some people, like artists, it’s a no brainer…they will plop down $3000 for a laptop without batting an eye because they need the design factor as much as they need the PC itself. For me, I’m not there yet.

        • #3215811

          Have you heard of the Mac Mini?

          by jackg058 ·

          In reply to Maybe…do some thinking first.

          Atroon, you make it sound like this guy is going to have to pony up 3 grand just to enjoy the Mac experience. WRONG! The Mini can be had for around $700. I agree that one should up the standard memory from the included 512mb to 1gb. I did it myself and it cost me $130 for the memory. I also purchased Parallels for Mac, and then proceeded to install Windows XP with almost as much ease as just putting it onto a standard PC. The great thing is that I notice no speed decrease, and this way I also don’t have to boot to go into Windows (not that I go there very much now).

          If you have an original XP disk with SP2 on it, you may also use Apple’s own Bootcamp for free. You have to have SP2 on the CD though, which was my limitation.

          Mac OS X though is far superior to XP, IMHO. I only use XP now for my already paid for Office XP, and and old scripture program that I cannot get anywhere else and that requires Windows. You can buy MS Office for the Mac if you prefer, or you may use the free OpenOffice for Mac.

          Hope this helps in the decision of the Mac seeker, and that it clears up the misconception that the Mac is too expensive. Used to be, but no longer.

          MAC OS X – the cure for the Windows headache!

        • #3217101

          A good point…

          by atroon ·

          In reply to Have you heard of the Mac Mini?

          The Mac Mini is a good product, and it is priced a lot more attractively. At the same time, which Mac Experience ™ are we talking about here?

          The Mac Mini will excel (no pun intended) at office applications and web browsing, but it’s not beefy enough to handle large/serious media or graphics editing which most people think of as the Mac specialties. It will publish a blog and photos with iLife/iPhoto, but by and large, you’re still paying more for a Mac Mini than the equivalent Windows hardware _because Apple won’t let other people manufacture their hardware_, which, as I said, ensures the ‘cool’ factor but keeps prices higher.

      • #3218731

        Buy a Mac … and much more !

        by phlcarp ·

        In reply to Urge to get Mac?

        Don?t be afraid to buy an iMac : from the very beginning,
        Macintoshs are well known to be very easy to use ; with
        Mac OsX, they are known to be very secure (no viruses at
        all) ; and the new Intel iMacs are also very powerful…

        And, with an iMac, you will get for free a whole
        development system, an assortment of easy to use media
        applications, a complete Unix system, and the possibility
        of running Linux and (if you are fool enough) even
        Windows ! I don?t know any computer that have a better
        capabilities/price ratio.

        You only will have to abandon some (bad) habits you got
        with Windows, and learn some (good) others for your iMac
        : for example, control click instead of the right mouse
        button to get a contextual menu… And as a reward, you
        will get a very powerful navigation tool in the file system
        with the column presentation of the Finder, and a lot of
        other nice things that Windows Vista has finally copied.

        Memory upgrades on iMacs are easy ; and no problems
        with external hard disks… you can even boot from them.

        Get an iMac without fear ; you will never get back.

        phlcarp

        • #3218687

          Mac vs PC, still a dilemma after 20 years!

          by jattas9 ·

          In reply to Buy a Mac … and much more !

          I have used Macs, since the infamous 1984. Being in the Publishing business, it has always been perceived that Macs do graphics better. Perhaps they do. Although today, the price performance ratio of a PC vs Mac, still points to PC. I read with interest the now well established fact that Apple’s business model for the Mac, has always been very egotistic. A high performing Mac, will cost you 4 times what a high performing PC will cost you today! Check it out. Apple has always been a proponent of bait and switch. Yes you can buy a cheap Mac, but if you want to run important business or production software, you need a well equipt Mac. I have always considered the Mac to be a machine for the people who need graphics for their job, but don’t want to learn computers. To this degree the Mac is superior, no doubt about it.
          I used to sell Macs, as well as PC’s in the publishing industry. Any program you run on any version OS will run faster on a PC with the correct equipment list.
          Finally, I can never forget when Apple would ship it’s standard models, with too little memory, and the cost of buying memory from them was prohibitive. So we all bought generic memory, when they changed over to generic memory. But then Apple voided your warranty if your Mac, had more memory than the sales slip indicated. This is part of the Apple mentality. If you can live with it, buy a Mac.

        • #3218654

          Slight Correction

          by umerckel ·

          In reply to Mac vs PC, still a dilemma after 20 years!

          As a present day certified Mac tech and also someone
          who’s used them since 1984, I have to correct you on one
          point.

          The only time Apple would “Void” a warranty for installing
          memory is if you were installing it yourself in a slot you’re
          not ment to get into as a user. Even then, the only
          example that comes to mind is the iMac G4 (LCD Display)
          due to the fact that to get access to the non-customer
          installable slot you needed to break the thermal paste seal
          between the base and the processor which can cause your
          system to overheat.

          Now while I might not agree with some of the other things
          you say, I just wanted to correct that one fact as you are
          allowed and expected to have your own opinion… So
          please don’t take this as “bashing” it’s just a slight
          correction 🙂

        • #3218971

          Exactly what I am talking about!

          by jattas9 ·

          In reply to Slight Correction

          In reply to Umerckel:
          You just nailed it on the head. I know if you have been using Macs since 1984, you as I have had to open more than a few MACs and be totally disappointed in their serviceability. Your response about memory access, is exactly what makes the MAC a “black box” not serviceable or upgradeable by owner. It’s one of my personal MAC critiques over the years. I again don’t have a grudge or otherwise. My original statement was that we used them profusely in publishing. I just didn’t like having to manage and repair/update them.

        • #3217718

          Not all macs…

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Exactly what I am talking about!

          As an owner of the early Macs, yes the Mac 128/512/Plus etc were not easy to service. I bled a couple of times.

          But the Mac II generation were frankly easier to service than PCs back then.

          The Mac II CX/CI etc were easy. There was no need for any screws, though there was one case screw spot, we usually took it out. I was at a press launch for the LC, and watched a press guy assemble an LC from components sitting on a table in under a minute (Case, PSU, MB(ram already on), HD Floppy).

          On the other hand when I got my new 9500 at work and went to install my RAM upgrade I was majorly pissed with poor design. There is no excuse in a full tower case to have to take out the HD carrier to install RAM.

          I never had a course in repairing Macs, I learned on my own, though I did work with Apple trained techs, many of whom considered me an equal.

          And I stopped messing with Macs 6 years ago, so I haven’t worked with the Mac mini. But I would never advise someone to buy one with the idea of upgrading later in mind – they are an appliance and you should order whatever you need or anticipate you need.

          James

        • #3217669

          Agree with the ordering what you need comment

          by jackg058 ·

          In reply to Not all macs…

          In my case, I bought my Mac Mini from the local CompUSA store that is shutting down. I didn’t have the option to upgrade at purchase, and the 512mb installed did seem to be the minimum requirement. I purchased from Other World Computing a 1gb matched set of dimms, and followed their excellent video demo on how to change the memory on a Mini, and presto, I’m running with twice the memory now. The Mini is difficult, in terms of case opening and compared to a standard PC tower. However, with the video presentation it made it a fairly simple process for me, although I have been a field engineer for over 15 years and am not squeamish when it comes to procedures like this.

        • #3218210

          Cost

          by juleslt ·

          In reply to Mac vs PC, still a dilemma after 20 years!

          Jattas – while I don’t disagree with a lot of what you’re saying about Apple’s business strategy (even last year I heard staff in an Apple store advising a customer to buy their extra memory from Crucial!) a lot of what you’re saying about the hardware is no longer true.

          Current Macs are, since the Intel switch, PCs. Benchmarks show that, running Windows, they are amongst the fastest PCs available. The high end Macs – the Mac Pro and XServe – also beat the equivalent Dell machines on price for spec. (Largely down to Apple having an exclusive deal with Intel, while Dell have annoyed Intel by using AMD CPUs). The MacBook Pro is at a similar price point to the equivalent spec Dell and Sony machines.

          It is only the lower end Macs (Mini, iMac and MacBook) that are higher priced than equivalent spec Windows machines.

        • #3217016

          for Jules-not everything is equal across product lines

          by jattas9 ·

          In reply to Cost

          Jules-You are right about the lower level machines. But the higher level game machines I believe are a different breed altogether, and there the manufacturers of these machines have a similar paradyne to Apple. My comments in general were meant to compare middle of the road products. I realize that things have changed since the intel Mac arrived. However the philosophy of Apple (which I personally have objected to for many years) has not.

        • #3217336

          How is right clicking a ‘bad’ habit?

          by dumbterminal ·

          In reply to Buy a Mac … and much more !

          ‘You only will have to abandon some (bad) habits you got
          with Windows, and learn some (good) others for your iMac
          : for example, control click instead of the right mouse
          button to get a contextual menu…’

          Sounds like a pain in the arse if that is true. What if you only have one arm.
          Biased and silly post

    • #3275331

      Some comments about the iMac for Windows PC users

      by techexec2 ·

      In reply to buy an iMac or a PC?

      I use both Windows XP and MacOS (Linux too). Currently, my primary computer is a Windows XP one. But, now that you can easily run Windows XP inside a VM on an Intel Mac, this might change someday.

      The iMac is an “information, communication, and entertainment appliance”. You cannot upgrade it and mess with the hardware in the same ways that you can most Windows PCs. If you like to do that, an iMac may not be right for you. If you don’t like to do that, an iMac can be an excellent choice. I suggest you go down to an Apple retail store and play around with one there before you buy one. They [i]love[/i] converting Windows users to Mac users so you should get a lot of help and support there.

      —–

      [b]Memory:[/b] It is easier to add memory to an Intel iMac than most PCs. You don’t even have to open the case. There is a little door like a notebook has. But, there are just 2 SODIMM slots on an Intel iMac. So, you will often have to REPLACE memory sticks in order to enlarge, not just ADD sticks. I don’t find this a problem as I just equip my PCs with a large amount of memory from the get-go.

      —–

      [b]Hard Disk:[/b] You can replace the internal HDD in an Intel iMac, but there is no room to add one. You can easily add fast and inexpensive external hard drive(s) via FireWire or USB 2.0.

      —–

      [b]Drive bays:[/b] None in the iMac. So, no additional optical drives, no internal Zip drives, etc. But, once again, these can be added via USB or FireWire.

      —–

      [b]PCI Slots:[/b] None in the Intel iMac (the very expensive Mac Pro has them). So, no additional VGA cards for additional monitors. No addon cards for anything else. If this is important to you, the iMac is not for you.

      Note: There is a very limited number of PCI cards that work in the Mac Pro compared to Windows PCs.

      —–

      [b]Keyboard:[/b] I do not like the feel of the Mac keyboard. I replaced it with the same keyboard that I use on my PC and it works fine (1). This way my hands always feel at “home”.

      The one I bought has special keys for sound volume and mute, to control iTunes, and to get direct access to documents, pictures, music, mail, web browser, calculator, log off, and sleep. They work the same on both the Mac and the PC.

      Note: The Apple Mac keyboard has some very minor layout differences. For example: 1. There is a dedicated CD eject key on the Mac KB. You just use PF12 on the PC keyboard (just like on the Mac notebooks). 2. There is a special “Apple” key about where the ALT key is. The ALT key does this job fine on the Mac. Apple+C = Copy, Apple+V = Paste, etc.

      —–

      [b]Mouse:[/b] I don’t like the Mac mouse either! Once again, I replaced it with a great mouse, the same one I use on my PC (2). The mouse I got is fully supported on Mac OS X including right clicking to get context menus (the Mac mouse has only one button by tradition), the scroll wheel, and the programmable buttons. Note: Mac OS X has wide support for context menus via the right mouse button just like Windows.

      —–

      [b]Monitor:[/b] When the monitor is integrated into the computer as it is with the iMac, you cannot upgrade it or replace it easily.

      —–

      [b]Third Party Hardware:[/b] The number and variety of 3rd party hardware for Macintosh is very limited when compared to the Windows PC world. The Mac does everything it is designed to do very well. But, if you like changing your computer hardware around to make it do different things, the iMac is not for you.

      —–

      [b]It just works:[/b] The Mac just works. Period. Example: I recently purchased a 3rd party UPS at a retail store for use with my Mac. I connected it up, including the USB cable that is supposed to enable the Mac and the UPS to work together. Nothing happened. I was not surprised because this scenario never works on my Windows PCs either. But… Upon opening the Mac OS X “control panel” (there was no software to install) I was [b]delighted[/b] to discover that the two had automatically started working together! The Mac was already monitoring the status of the UPS and would automatically shut down gracefully if the power ever failed. This exact same thing on the Windows PC was a mess (looking for drivers, installing software, fiddling around, yadda, yadda, yadda).

      The Mac is simply a joy to use without any reservations or qualifications.

      —–

      (1) Microsoft Digital Media Pro Keyboard
      http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/productdetails.aspx?pid=030

      (2) Microsoft Wireless Laser Mouse 6000
      http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/productdetails.aspx?pid=049

      (3) Ten thoughts on the new Intel iMac
      http://news.com.com/Ten+thoughts+on+the+new+Intel+iMac/2100-1003_3-6029335.html

      • #3218555

        Great Post!

        by nobby57 ·

        In reply to Some comments about the iMac for Windows PC users

        TechExec2 —

        Thanks for the informative and specific post. The kind of information that people can really use to make a decision. Posts like that are too rare!

        Reid

      • #3218203

        Apple-C, Apple-V

        by juleslt ·

        In reply to Some comments about the iMac for Windows PC users

        Small tip :
        You can switch the ‘Apple’ and CTRL keys around so they’re the same shortcuts as Windows.

        However, it is worth noting that the idea is that it’s easier to reach Apple-C than CTRL-C.

        • #3217205

          Thanks, Jules!

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to Apple-C, Apple-V

          Now…Why would I want to “break” this [u]feature[/u] of the Mac? I [u]like[/u] Apple+C/ALT+C. I’ve been waiting for years to get carpel tunnel syndrome from CTRL+C!

          :^0

    • #3275300

      Thank you

      by bakwas.reg ·

      In reply to buy an iMac or a PC?

      Thank you all for such insightful comments. I will go to the apple shop and try using the computer. The store near me also has a getting started workshop. Will try to attend it.

      • #3275954

        You’re welcome!!

        by techexec2 ·

        In reply to Thank you

      • #3218638

        Get the Mac

        by jmero ·

        In reply to Thank you

        I’m a long-time PC User (15 years) who has recently converted to Macs (not entirely though, I still use both). I got started with a Mac Mini and am now a proud owner of a MacBook Pro. Nothing beats the reliability (and interface!) of Mac OS X.

    • #3275298

      One more question

      by bakwas.reg ·

      In reply to buy an iMac or a PC?

      Is there an equivalent of remote terminal in Xp for Mac?

      • #3275958

        Yes

        by techexec2 ·

        In reply to One more question

        Yes. Microsoft has a free Mac client that can connect to a Windows workstation or a server. Looks good on paper. I have never used it so cannot offer any opinion.

        Remote Desktop Connection Client for Mac
        http://www.microsoft.com/mac/otherproducts/otherproducts.aspx?pid=remotedesktopclient

        • #3275935

          There really is no difference

          by stilmas ·

          In reply to Yes

          There really is no difference between the systems today. Get what you are most comfortable with. They can both do the same exact things, although PC’s network much better. Everyone touts the fact that MAC systems come with all the software that you will ever need, most of it is crap so you will have to buy software if you want the real stuff and it will be top $$$. The ideal thing is to have both systems depending on what you’re doing. As for running Windows on the MAC system, it’s really f’ing slow. What I would do is build an i386 system and install OS X and Windows on it if Apple let’s you do that, I don’t see why not since they both run on identical platforms. Just my 2 cents.

        • #3275902

          Windows XP on Intel Mac is FAST

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to There really is no difference

          [i]”As for running Windows on the MAC system, it’s really f’ing slow.”[/i]

          [b]This is incorrect.[/b]

          Running Windows XP in a VM on the Intel Macintosh is fast. It is about 2/3 as fast as Windows XP native (1). I understand that Parallels (the VM software) is improving as well.

          It was slow on the PowerPC Macintosh because the Intel architecture had to be emulated.

          Running Windows XP natively (dual boot) on an Intel Mac is even faster than in a VM.

          (1) Parallels Desktop for Mac (speed test)
          http://www.macworld.com/2006/06/reviews/parallels/index.php

        • #3215794

          Excellent response TechExec

          by jackg058 ·

          In reply to Windows XP on Intel Mac is FAST

          I run Parallels for Mac on my Mac Mini. I don’t find running Windows any slower or faster than I did on a native PC. However, the downside to the Mini is onboard Intel graphics. When I wish to run heavy games, such as the forthcoming “Splinter Cell: Double Agent” that I am waiting for next week, I use my P4 3.4Ghz with 2GB memory, and ATI X700 Pro with 256mb memory PC. This will run the games swiftly, yet doesn’t really perform any better than my Mini.

          My Mini has the Intel 1.66Ghz Due Core processor with 1gb of ram, FYI.

        • #3218806

          Thank you Sir!! :D

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to Excellent response TechExec

          And, thank you for sharing your experience with the Mac Mini, Windows XP, and Parallels.

        • #3218718

          i386

          by juleslt ·

          In reply to Windows XP on Intel Mac is FAST

          Well, what would you expect from someone who’d build a 386 based machine 🙂

          Windows performance on Intel Macs also varies enormously dependent on available memory. Just as running Windows under a VM on a Windows machines varies enormously dependent on available memory.

          Unless he’s thinking about Virtual PC on a PPC Mac, which was pretty slow?

      • #3218715

        Remote Desktop

        by juleslt ·

        In reply to One more question

        For connecting into Windows – Microsoft Remote Desktop client.

        For connecting into Macs – Apple’s Remote Desktop. Or you could just connect to it as a Unix server via SSH, but you don’t get the GUI.

        You can also run VNC on both Macs and PCs – you can find free versions around. I’ve used this to connect both ways.

      • #3218602

        no comparison in stability

        by tl542681893 ·

        In reply to One more question

        I operated a G4 dual processor Mac for 3 years continuously with not one crash. It was running Eudora, Dave, a high-level scientific graphics program, Office X for the Mac, some utilities, virus protection, and the full version of Windows XP Pro for the PC in a separate PC environment. XP Pro was slower on the Mac than on a regular PC but it was extremely stable. Not a single program ever crashed. I finally had to power down for a move.
        During that same time, if I had a nickel for every time my PC crashed I could buy another Mac. And I would, too.

    • #3275855

      I’ve been using PC’s for over 9 yrs and just bought a Mac – love it!

      by dm3haggitt ·

      In reply to buy an iMac or a PC?

      I started out in the early 80’s with a Z80, VIC20, & Apple
      IIc. Later I switched to PC’s for all the ‘software’ reasons.
      Now PC software stinks, esp. Vista. I just bought a
      MACmini and I love it. OS X is smooth and intuitive (once
      you switch a few brain gears). There are fewer steps,
      fewer errors, and less clutter. The software is full
      featured. I don’t have to buy anything out of box
      (software wise). And if I want, I can run WinXP natively on
      my Intel CoreDuo MAC. I’m going to start servicing and
      selling MACs and using them exclusively for my personal
      use.

      • #3274837

        Macs vs PC

        by p.j.hutchison ·

        In reply to I’ve been using PC’s for over 9 yrs and just bought a Mac – love it!

        Macs are very easy to use and work out of the box, no messing with drivers or compatibility problems, very few viruses and no malware.

        There is one problem with Macs, the software base is much, much smaller than PCs, and the gaming side is very, very small. So, don’t expect to have Mac equivalent software for all your PC software.

        • #3274940

          So far, MAC software seems superior. Isn’t it UNIX based?

          by dm3haggitt ·

          In reply to Macs vs PC

          So far the software I have seen seems superior. I would
          rather have less software that is better, if this holds true.
          Also, if the OS X core is BSD, the Berkley edition of Unix (or
          am I mistaken), wouldn’t MACs have the potential to run an
          enormous library of software if run through the proper
          compiler, module, component, or whatever?

        • #3276366

          Unix Mac

          by p.j.hutchison ·

          In reply to So far, MAC software seems superior. Isn’t it UNIX based?

          Yes, it does have that potential, MacOS even includes X Windows (has to installed seperately) but some of the gadget/gui sets are not all are available in the box.

          See http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=43139

        • #3276355

          X Windows

          by dm3haggitt ·

          In reply to Unix Mac

          I think I installed X Windows in order to install OpenOffice
          2.0.4.

        • #3218708

          Unix / Cocoa

          by juleslt ·

          In reply to So far, MAC software seems superior. Isn’t it UNIX based?

          I’d agree with the ‘less but better’ philosophy – my view is that comes out of the fact that these days the only developers left on the platform are those that love it.

          A telling point from a developers mailing list was complaining that XCode only offers developers 16 or so widgets, as opposed to the hundreds available in Visual Studio. That is a reason why there is more consistency between Mac apps, and thus why it is quicker to learn a new app. (It’s worth thinking of art – does using more colours lead to better art??).

          There is an awful lot of Unix software available for the Mac, particularly non-GUI stuff. It’s one reason Macs are popular in scientific academic circles (one area where Unix GUI software took off).

          While the core of the operating system is BSD Unix, which is responsible for a lot of the stability and security, a lot of the quality of Apple apps comes from the NextStep/Cocoa framework that Apple inherited from it’s purchase of NeXT.

          In the past this was also available on top of Solaris and Windows, as a cross-platform development framework.

          (Apple obviously also have something internal they use for developing iTunes and the Quicktime player on both Windows and Mac).

    • #3216120

      It’s a matter of needs.

      by warzjohn ·

      In reply to buy an iMac or a PC?

      I switched to a Macbook Pro in Feb, 2006, after years of repairing windows pcs for others, it became mostly saving data or spending hours removing more and more infections, and less of hardware issues. I just plain got tired that windows allowed this to happen to their OS. So after I switched in Feb. 2006, no infections, no spyware clogging, no trogen sending my personel infomation to eastern europe. I for one will have to see a damn great improvement before going back to that pettri dish of a OS again. Although it still keeps me busy with working on others machines daily. 😉
      john

      • #3215992

        This is exactly what I was wanting to say.

        by dm3haggitt ·

        In reply to It’s a matter of needs.

        This is exactly what I was wanting to say. Thanks for expressing what I was dancing around.

      • #3218668

        About the Virus/worm/etc.

        by jattas9 ·

        In reply to It’s a matter of needs.

        Well John, I am sure that you as well as most of us in the business do keep busy with the virus thing. I personally believe that the Mac is no more tolerant of viruses etc than the PC. There are too few Macs to interest those who would do damage to us.
        In my former environment, we had 2,000 pcs, and 75 Macs. percentage wise, we had the same number of infections on Macs with Os 9 and 10 as we did on the PC’s. There is no magic bullet. When was the last time you g ot the “bomb” on the MAC. It still exists, and gives you no clue why.

        • #3218656

          A virus is a user’s fault, not the OS’s

          by smorty71 ·

          In reply to About the Virus/worm/etc.

          I have used PCs exclusively and have *never* had a virus. I’ve also never had a spyware issue.

          I keep my AV software up-to-date and I use the latest Windows patches. I also don’t know stupid things when browsing the web.

          Keeping machines virus and spyware free is a direct result of the awareness and care of the end user, not of the OS.

        • #3218626

          I disagree sMorty

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to A virus is a user’s fault, not the OS’s

          if patches being up-to-date is not enough to protect an OS, then there is a problem with the OS.

          Can you name me a few other products that REQUIRE you to buy at least two other products in order for the original product to work properly?

          The question is how many viruses “in-the-wild” are there that will affect a patched Linux or MAC box by simply viewing a web page? (dumb users clicking on dialog boxes they don’t understand do not count, because that is a user problem, not an OS problem.)

        • #3218552

          Your car, your ipod?

          by rexworld ·

          In reply to I disagree sMorty

          While I do agree with you to some extent, there are definitely other products that require you to buy additional bits to work properly. I can think of two off the top of my head: car, and ipod. Your car requires that you buy gas, that you pay a license fee, that you pay for a smog check-up, etc. Your ipod requires you have a recharging device (usually a computer with USB but could also be a separate power brick) and you have to buy music, either CD’s that you rip or downloads from iTunes.

          Keeping with the analogy, if a user is dumb enough to never recharge their iPod they can’t expect it to just magically keep on working. To smorty’s point that a careful and conscientious user is the most important part of keeping a computer virus-free.

        • #3217486

          hmmm

          by bakwas.reg ·

          In reply to Your car, your ipod?

          I guess the point is if there is a road A that has a higher rate getting pot holes and the second road B has a lower rate of pot holes, and if the user has never been on the road B, its a smart user who continues on road A skirting all the pot holes,instead of taking road B, as it its new.

          hmmm thats a thought

        • #3217286

          You Nailed It!

          by dr dij ·

          In reply to hmmm

          especially if both are toll roads, and road A is half the price of road B, it may pay to avoid the potholes!

        • #3217075

          I guess my point was…

          by smorty71 ·

          In reply to hmmm

          if you know how to drive, each road is equal. Each will have its share of bumps, but if you know how to drive carefully, you can avoid them.

        • #3218399

          Sure I can!

          by hatfira ·

          In reply to I disagree sMorty

          Try your car! If you don’t keep gas in it and oil in the crankcase, it will most certainly not work for long. Maintaining your OS is no less important. While I do think the OS should do a reasonably good job of protecting you, it will always require more specialized apps to complete the set.

          I personally love Macs for the ease of use and workability, but I won’t give up my PC anytime soon. I do feel it’s up to me to keep both systems (and my Kubuntu Linux, too!) up to date. When you’re dealing with millions of line of code, you will inevitably have issues. It doesn’t matter the OS. If the poster wants a Mac, then by all means he should try it! Just make sure to get one that’s Intel based, and you can have your cake and eat it, too. Even if Windows won’t scream on it, ad I’m not saying it won’t, you will have flexibility you don’t have now.

        • #3218204

          Hmm

          by juleslt ·

          In reply to A virus is a user’s fault, not the OS’s

          I too have kept my PCs spyware free, but I find myself continually fixing things for relatives – particularly those with teenage male children, who are drawn to do stupid things when browsing the web. (Like turning the firewall off to get p2p to work). Now parents should, in an ideal world, know what their kids are doing on the family computer, but realistically most of them don’t have a clue.

          Overall, however, your attitude is a bit like saying that it’s a home owners responsibility for their own security. To a large degree that is true, but for a long time the default installation of Windows was like selling a house without locks on the doors and windows.

          More crucially, because most people know little about IT, they didn’t know they were missing. Firewalls have been a standard part of most operating systems for decades.

          To be fair, Apple was in a similar boat pre-OS X. Both Windows and the classic Mac OS were never designed to work in a hostile networked environment.

        • #3217068

          So you’re saying ignorant users should use Macs?

          by smorty71 ·

          In reply to Hmm

          No one can design the perfect solution for ignorant users. If you aren’t willing to invest a little bit of time to understand how to maintain your equipment (whether a PC or a car or your home), then it is really your own fault when you have problems.

          To use your analogy, if someone were to sell you a home with no locks and you weren’t smart enough to install locks, then that is your own fault.

        • #3216834

          Not such a bad idea

          by juleslt ·

          In reply to So you’re saying ignorant users should use Macs?

          I know which one I would rather have the computer illiterate members of my extended family using.

          And yes, I do wish people would treat their computers more like cars, but they don’t want to – they want ‘the internet’ to work, like television. A lot of people want their cars to be the same (hence the growth in diagnostic display systems in cars).

        • #3218606

          infections on OS 10

          by juleslt ·

          In reply to About the Virus/worm/etc.

          I’d be astounded if you had infections on any of your OS X machines that were not actually infections in the ‘Classic’ (OS 9) partition or Virtual PC. There are ZERO known viruses for OS X, and only a couple of ‘concept’ Trojans.

          The very fact that OS 9 had a large number of viruses and OS X does not, belies the theory that it is market size that protects OS X. The actuality is that it is the Unix foundations that protect OS X. (Solaris and many flavours of Unix are as secure, but are unknown by most desktop users).

          As for the bomb – I haven’t had it on OS X. Mind you I’ve not had a PC completely lock up in a couple of years either.

          If you actually believe what you have written then I’m quite worried – an IT administrator should be acting on facts.

        • #3217114

          I do use a runtime virus scanner on my MAC.

          by dm3haggitt ·

          In reply to About the Virus/worm/etc.

          I do believe viruses can be written for any OS or app. So I do use iClav or something like that.

    • #3216051

      You need a MAC

      by mjd420nova ·

      In reply to buy an iMac or a PC?

      If for no other reason than to learn how to use them and service them. They are a different beast from the outside, but inside they still use the same chips and must follow the same logic in diagnostics. It will be a real learning experience and if you really want to learn them, get one for your home and learn how to use it. If you are buying, a PC is the answer, but if you have to get your work to pay for one for you, that way it will be easier to learn and you won’t feel so intimidated by them. I learned them when they first came out, but service was reserved for the certified APPLE techs. Hogwash, a computer is a computer, just the overlying software makes it a bit strange, but you’ll get used to it.

      • #3215987

        Yes, if for no other reason than the experience.

        by dm3haggitt ·

        In reply to You need a MAC

        Yes, if for no other reason than the experience. It always helps to know first hand what it is like in the other guy’s shoes. (Perhaps I talk too much. I’d like to think I’m just excited by good advice.)

        • #3218765

          My Experience

          by danmcl ·

          In reply to Yes, if for no other reason than the experience.

          I agree, about 12 months ago I was exclusively PC based. My Wife bought me a mac mini (powerPC) for christmas and now the only time I use a PC is at work and our servers run on Windows as well.

          I was that amazed by the mac mini that I have just bought 2 macbooks, a black one for me and a white one (2.0GHz) model for my wife. There is a bit of a learning curve as you relearn how to do things
          http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3951/osxsatisfactionchart1qk.jpg

          As for remote desktop I recommend the excellent CoRD 2.0, the MS one can only have one terminal open at a time unless you use a launcher for it where as CoRD does it all in one window and its easy to switch between them.

          But once you go mac you never go back!

          http://danmacs.blogspot.com

    • #3218722

      Yes

      by juleslt ·

      In reply to buy an iMac or a PC?

      Firstly, in terms of hardware specs, since the switch to using Intel CPU, it is now much easier to compare specs with a Windows PC. Now you only have to deal with comparing AMD and Intel’s different ways of measuring performance. Memory – can be upgraded easily enough. Hard disk – less so, but I’d go external if you need that volume of storage. (I’d look at a wireless home network storage device as these are coming down in price. The advantage with these is that you can share them between computers).

      What I will say is that if you’re the kind of person who considers the spec of their machine, then the only Mac you’ll be happy with is the Mac Pro, MacBook Pro or an XServe – these are the only machines in Apple’s range that are seriously price competitive for the performance they deliver. The lower end machines are all more expensive than equivalent spec PCs, whatever anyone tells you. Partly you’re paying a premium for the name (about 15%) but you’re also paying for the industrial design, unique motherboards, etc. The USB sockets on my Mac Mini, for instance, are rock solid compared to laptops over twice the price.

      The only real reason for going for a Mac isn’t the spec of the machines, but the operating system and software. OS X is a really great system, especially if you’ve got any Unix experience. But even if you just stick at the graphical level you can achieve a lot – it took me 5 minutes (including searching the Internet) to set up a folder where I could drag files that would then be transferred via Bluetooth to my phone. You can use AppleScript to automate pretty much anything (even if programs don’t support it you can script key-press events) – I’ve used that to configure my mouse to launch tools. Features like Expose are great, although Vista will bring similar to Windows.

      Software – there is a LOT less than on Windows. In the old days, when you had to go to shops to buy software, this was a bad thing – little choice. These days I buy almost all my software as direct downloads via the Internet. I would say that while Macs are more expensive, I have found the software to be cheaper. (Mac developers often swear by the Cocoa framework, when they are not swearing at it, for allowing them to develop this stuff rapidly / easily).

      The other plus side is that most software on the Mac is developed by Mac users / fans – i.e. people who put a high value on a good user interface. My experience is that the average quality of Mac apps / shareware is far higher than with Windows. That is not the fault of Windows itself – the issue is that Windows is the dominant platform so attracts more people out to make an easy buck.

      Take a look at the following apps : If you can see yourself using them then I’d give the Mac a try : OmniGraffle, OmniOutliner, Delicious Library, TextMate, iMovie, Garageband. I know I have way more installed (including some simple ones like BluephoneElite) but I’m at work so can’t check. If you’re into higher end video and audio work then there’s a whole load of apps out there.

      Personally – I went from a high-spec AMD games rig to a low-power Mac Mini because I realised my computing needs had changed. I mostly use a console for gaming these days, and I wanted something quiet and small for Internet use and light code editing in the study. It’s only 1/4 of the performance of the current Mini, yet I’m more than happy with it, and feel no real need to upgrade (other than the usual itch).

    • #3218696

      Try A Mac Mini

      by guitarplaya2000 ·

      In reply to buy an iMac or a PC?

      I would suggest to buy a mac mini first. It’s not big investment, $600-700. It uses the monitor, keyboard and mouse that you own already. If you have any of those as a spare, you can use the Mac Mini as second system and learn the OS until you are comfortable with it.
      Then when you are ready, you can invest in a iMac.

      Good Luck!

    • #3218666

      The Job Defines the Tools Needed…

      by duomaxwell1688 ·

      In reply to buy an iMac or a PC?

      Your question on which you should get, a Mac or a PC is based very heavily on what you are looking to use either for. Both have their vice’s in certain categories.

      One of the most known vice’s for Mac is it’s great software for video, sound and picture editing (i.e. Final Cut Pro, Aperture, Logic Pro) which are only available on Mac computer’s, there is software that does the same things that the Mac’s products do, but professionals in those industries agree that the Mac’s software manage’s much better.

      On the PC side you have your typical applications that you can’t get for MAc for the most part, many games and universal software run better on a PC or are only available for PC.

      Another thing to consider is the fact that Mac holds a very high level of security which PC’s can only come close in the form of Linux. Which for your basic internet surfing you ned to consider. If your just an average person who pretty much uses the internet to check their email/weather/movie times and so on, then I would say a Mac is the way to go.

      You could go Mac/Windows Hybrid but if you are not skilled in programming and can’t even begin to fathom how it’s possible then I would recomend trying to buy one here: (http://www.macmall.com/macmall/shop/detail.asp?dpno=7053048&Redir=1).

    • #3218661

      If you’ve never used a Mac, why do you want one?

      by smorty71 ·

      In reply to buy an iMac or a PC?

      Please tell me those horrible commercials haven’t gotten to you 🙂

      Seriously, though, why do you want to make the switch if you don’t know anything about them?

    • #3218657

      Get a Mac

      by jjpengr ·

      In reply to buy an iMac or a PC?

      I have used Macs at home and Windows at work over the past 10 years. Mac OSX blows Windows away and Apple’s iLife is superior for the kinds of things you do at home. Apple’s mail is also superior. But the Mac also runs MS Office so you can easily exchange files from work. The new Intel Macs let you run both OSX and Windows for those apps that are Windows only, but I find that is seldom needed. Upgrades for memory and hard drives are no different, and they are easier to complete with OSX.

      • #3218593

        Thanks for all the opinions

        by bakwas.reg ·

        In reply to Get a Mac

        The reason I wanted to try Mac is; I always hear – how the Mac Os is superior to Windows.

        Secondly, i am kind of tired with the malware that gets downloaded on windows. I spent over a week trying to get the malware out, the alternate being to format my disk.

        Its for home, where its mostly used for internet,documentation and media. Also, for its the compact design. When one tries to get slightly high-end PC with a flat panel, the price is pretty close to iMac. I always thought Apple’s Product designs are great.

        • #3218352

          Malware Help…

          by hatfira ·

          In reply to Thanks for all the opinions

          There are a bunch of tools, some free and some costing, some that run continuously and others only on-demand that do a great job of spyware/malware removal. Windows Defender, Adaware, and Spybot are all examples. The other think you can do to help this a LOT is to set your cookies to acceptfirst party and block third party cookies. It works REALLY well for stopping spyware, especially tracking cookies. Regardless of whether you choose to get a Mac or not, do these couple of steps and they will help a lot. This is assuming you have a good antivirus program. Most nowadays recognize a lot of malware a viruses and stop them as well. (I know of Symantec personally, but I am sure others do as well.)

          If you are just tired of spyware/malware, don’t change just for that. Just change your protection plan. If you really have the itch for a Mac (and the scratch to buy it), then by all means scratch it. If you just want to keep more of the bad stuff out, just change your tactics.

    • #3218595

      Tale of a switcher

      by bryony ·

      In reply to buy an iMac or a PC?

      A friend of mine recently bought his first Mac – he is 70,
      recently retired from teaching how to run Windows PCs,
      author of computerized presentations for learning Windows
      PCs and programs, in the past had set up a website which is
      one of the most popular on the web – in short someone who
      knows his way around Windows PCs.

      Once he sat down to explore his new Mac, it took half an
      hour for him to state that he is never going back.

    • #3218345

      Business tool, or computing platform?

      by tachyon ·

      In reply to buy an iMac or a PC?

      If you want a simple to use tool, that just does what you want, in a simple, reliable way, then consider the Mac. However, there are some serious cons to the Mac as well. First application support is limited. In fact other than a few dozen commercial apps that have been supportive of Apple for a long time, application support is fairly limited. I often find software that supports Windows and even Linux but not the Mac.

      A big concern is also harware support. Once again, Linux supports much more hardware than MacOS and if you want to use generic hardware from your local tech barn, you better reconsider. Also, Mac specific hardware is almost always more expensive than equivalent (or even identical) Windows hardware.

      Another very big concern is how you work. If you like to customize your OS and applications to your work style you will be out of luck with MacOS as Apple puts tight restrictions on it’s software developers. While this makes it easy to find things in unfamiliar applications (since they all follow the same guidelines) it also stifles user choice and customization.
      Also you may find that the MacOS’ design, while great for simplifying user interfaces, is not so great for workflow. I personally find MacOS very frustrating as it constantly gets in my way. Slowing down my work and my productivity. In fact my Mac spends a lot of time collecting dust as I only use it for the few Mac specific apps I find a use for, or for guests I don’t trust not to screw up my other computers, like kids.

      Windows has it’s frustrations, and it’s incessant security problems, but most of these can be overcome easily enough.
      Just make sure and use Firefox and not IE, and delete Outlook and use something else.
      Install a good malware/virus combo and _keep them updated!_.
      I use Antivir, Spybot S & D, and Spyware Blaster in concert and then run CrapCleaner and defraglite regularly.

      Finally, I have a hunch that Apple plans to leapfrog Microsoft in DRM and platform application controls in a BIG way soon. This will severly limit your freedom of choice as far as what software and media you can use on your own computer. I have no doubt that DRM was the real, primary reason Apple switched to Intel (otherwise why not AMD?).

      Personally, I use SuSE 10.1 as my primary, daily OS. When I need to use Windows for whatever reason, I fire up VMWare (the free server with the local client), and for Mac needs, I dust off the old iMac I got for next to nothing.

      MacOS is an armoured limousine. Flashy, powerful, and safe. But you don’t get to drive, look under the hood, or choose your route.

      Windows is a used Ford Crown Victoria police interceptor. It’s reasonably fast, fairly powerful, you get to drive and choose your own rout and radio stations. You can paint it and do some basic performance and appearance mods. But it’s also got a lot of old parts, a bad transmission, and it tends to explode when rear ended.

      Linux is a homebuilt racecar. It’s whatever you are willing to put the time into making it. From a go cart to an F1 racer. It’s very reliable, safe, fast, and custom fit just for you. Plus you can drive anywhere, and listen to any music you want, even if there’s no radio stations. However, it doesn’t use the same fuel as other cars and it can easily be made unsafe by stupid mechanics. If you got the brains and the guts, it’ll take you to the moon.

      Good luck!

      • #3217448

        re : Business tool, or computing platform?

        by juleslt ·

        In reply to Business tool, or computing platform?

        Application support : While it is true you often find software that supports Windows (and even Linux) but not the Mac, there is a significant (and growing) Mac application market. If you’re not a regular Mac user, or commercial software user, you’ve probably not looked into it, but I have not found any requirements I have been unable to satisfy.

        I can also think of more than a few apps I have on my Mac that I wish were available on the Windows machines I use at work. TextMate for starters.

        Caveat : In some cases – particularly development tools – I use cross-platform Java software rather than native OS X software.
        I’ve also installed the optional X-Windows component to run Unix ports such as Inkscape – again I don’t count this as ‘Mac’ software, but there are literally thousands of open-source Unix apps available as pre-compiled downloads for OS X.

        >Another very big concern is how you work. If you like to customize your OS and applications to your work style you will be out of luck with MacOS as
        >Apple puts tight restrictions on it’s software developers.
        >While this makes it easy to find things in unfamiliar applications (since they all follow the same guidelines) it also stifles user choice and customization.

        I would state this as – Apple has strong human interface guidelines for developers, which can be ignored.

        I’d dispute most of your other points about customisation and workflow and not being able to look under the hood. The structure of Apple application bundles is such that you can modify the interface of even Apple’s supplied apps by editing the NIB file. Cocoa is a very easy framework to hack (you can inject your own objects to ‘pose’ as an existing object, replacing it’s functionality). There are people out there supplying tools to provide radical customisations of the OS (unsanity is a starting point).

        Of course, there is relatively little interest in application skinning in the OS X world, perhaps because there is rather more effort put into getting GUI design right in the first place. I’d suggest reading Joel Spolsky’s ‘User Interface Design for Developers’ which makes the telling point that a lot of the time, making applications configurable / customisable is an excuse for putting off a design decision – every time you give the user a choice, you are forcing them to make a decision you could have made.

        When it comes to workflow, I have to disagree completely. I find OS X an incredibly productive environment, and it very easy to get under the hood. Firstly, it’s Unix based. Secondly, it ships with development tools. Want to quickly built an OS X GUI front end to a Unix shell script? Easy. Want to link an action to a file going into a directory – easy. Took me minutes to set up a drop box to automatically send files to my phone over Bluetooth. And another minute to enable the same action from a global context menu. Want to join applications together without going down to Unix level? Use AppleScript or Automator. App doesn’t support Applescript?? Then use it to fire off keyboard events. Want to knock up your own cool screensaver? Use Quartz Composer (a patch-board based interface to OpenGL). If you’re heavily into keyboard use, get Quicksilver, which most ‘power users’ swear by – it’s customisable and allows you to add your own keyboard shortcuts for almost everything.

        Let’s run through that again – most OS X software has a scripting interface (AppleScript is just one implentation of a language to control it, Automator is another). I can add those scripts to a context menu (global or application level) or a keyboard shortcut or bind it to a directory. I can turn them into a GUI driven program with native look and feel, or a Dashboard widget with whatever interface I want.

        Then there’s all the things you slowly discover – shortcuts like Apple-I to send the current web-page as HTML mail, any app using the standard text class supports spell-check, auto-completion of current word (ESC), Google lookup, text-to-speech and emacs key bindings. Of course Linux offers similar, but there is far less chance your apps will be using the same framework.

        And you’re telling me it’s not customisable or supports good workflow??

        Looking under the hood – everything from ps -ef to a variety of sampling and code profiling tools are available. Next version of OS X includes Sun’s d-trace technology and adds an app called X-Ray for visualising the results.

        I do find it a bit frustrating when Linux or Windows users make a bit of casual use of OS X and then complain about it’s ‘limitations’, without putting in an ounce of the effort they’ve put into mastering Linux. (You may feel the same thing when Windows users complain that Linux is ‘difficult’ when they mean ‘different’). The fact that you can’t do things the same way does not mean they are non-achievable. The problem is possibly that by focusing on simplicity in the default configuration, people don’t even suspect things like the emacs key-bindings are there – they think ‘what you see is all you get’.

        >I have no doubt that DRM was the real, primary reason Apple switched to Intel (otherwise why not AMD?).
        Other reasons :
        1. Intel are evidently giving them good discounts (how else do the MacPro and XServe beat Dell in price?).
        2. Intel are currently beating AMD technologically. They have just completed the first ground-up redesign in years.
        3. Microsoft’s support for AMD 64-bit and use of PowerPC in the XBox shows that ‘WinTel’ is less of an alliance than you might think.

        I think you are right that Apple will be there early with machines supporting hardware DRM as they obviously want to be in early with the video download market. What I don’t believe, however, is that you will ever see Apple produce a machine that ONLY allows DRM-approved content or platform application controls. They ship a full set of development tools – including gcc – with every copy of OS X. There is no way a computer can work out the intentions of a program written by a user (see ‘halting problem’). They ship media editing software – are they seriously going to prevent users viewing their own holiday movies or photos?? Or any old CDs and DVDs??

        While Linux will, of course, offer freedom from hardware DRM, it will also mean not being able to watch/edit any DRM content without it first being cracked. Given the nature of most DRM content, it may not be much of a loss.

        • #3216915

          Close minded Mac Zealot?

          by tachyon ·

          In reply to re : Business tool, or computing platform?

          Your response is mostly platform zealous blather, and not useful or factual based.

          Assuming that anyone that dares to call the Mac UI inefficient is just an inexperienced user with an ulterior platform motive is silly.

          Personally, I use several platforms daily, including MacOS X. While I find that the Windows UI is much less consistent, and strict, I rarely find it getting in the way as much as MacOS X does.
          Firstly Apple wastes a lot of time on making things look pretty at the expense of functionality. And this is the issue.
          OOB (Out Of Box) functionality and productivity of MacOS X is frustrating and inferior. You can blather on about scripting and configuration and addons. But come on, the type of user that buys a Mac buys a tool, not a toy. They don’t want to get elbows deep in the guts of the OS. Those users tend to use Linux.
          A perfect example of Apple’s stupidity is their complete failure to ship a decent mouse with their systems. Sure the mice look nice, and feel nice to the hand, but 3 buttons and a scroll wheel is the minimum these days for making the UI work for you. This meta key click nonsense is annoying and slows your work. Yes, I can hear you screaming how you can just plug-in a Logitech mouse, but you shouldn’t have to! Apple should ship it with the computer. And more than that, it’s representative of the UI design problems. It ships in it’s prettiest, most dumbed down mode which interferes with productivity.
          The damn finder is another example. I’ve never seen such a worthless file manager.
          Every part of the UI wastes space on eye candy, yet Apple always screws you on desktop space. Oh sure, you can get a pro Mac and a megabucks Cinema display and get a reasonable desktop size. But OOB, most affordable Macs have pathetic screen resolutions and mice. Look at the iMac/iBook line. Almost worthless for productivity. Apple themselves recognize the problem of wasted UI space, why do you think they include Expose’ ?
          Go into the finder with a real mouse and right click an icon. Look at how much you can do without using the file menu or having to remember one of the jillion meta key modifier clicks. Try using drag and drop to manage files. Try getting your files to display the way YOU want, instead of the way Apple wants. Hell, just try getting the icons lined up and in the order you want.
          Personally I find KDE’s Konqueror to be a MUCH more productive file manager than the Finder.
          Recently I foolishly decided to use iMovie to put together a short multimedia presentation. What a nightmare. The UI was constantly in the way. You can’t even insert stills without first importing them into iPhoto. Not to mention how much Apple software won’t even install if it doesn’t think your hardware configuration is adequate.

          As for DRM, well, all I can say is “we’ll see”. I see Apple becoming mainly a provider of content, and a a maker of a controlled content delivery platform.
          They already make more money with iTunes than they do selling their OS platform.

          Speaking of OS’s. Why on earth would they use a MACH kernel? They only reasonable purpose for having one is to abstract hardware. How stupid is that?! Apple is the only platform maker that controls their own hardware! They know what the OS will be running on. They could be using a standard kernel, right on the iron and optimizing it to fly. The fact that Linux regularly spanks MacOS X on kernel stressing benchmarks (even on Apple’s own hardware!) is a big clue here. This penalty is easy to see in default uses of malloc and fork which are very common in both OS and application code. Microkernels also are more performance expensive in context switches. Or hadn’t you noticed how Apple tries to compensate for this with huge “backside” caches.
          I could go on ragging on the Mac, but that’s not my point. I’m not a Mac hater, but I’m not a zealot who imagines the Mac to be computing nirvana either.
          If you are a user who wants a computing tool that is a black box, then Macs can be great, IF you add a real mouse and a decent sized monitor.
          If you want the ultimate in configurability and versatility, go Linux.
          If you want somewhere in between, go Windows XP and lots of security and anti-malware tools.

          P.S. You’re off your nut regarding your 3 Intel points. If Intel is so far ahead, why are they having to throw out their own technology and copy others? eg. EMT64, Speedstep. And they still aren’t competitive with HyperTransport bus. If AMD can get chipset and peripheral makers to support more features on the BUS, they’ll kill Intel in performance.
          Also, the P4 architecture isn’t very efficient, that’s why they muscle performance out of it with MHz. They went back to the P-III architecture beginning with the Pentium M. Look how fast that is at half the MHz of the P4. Now of course they are finally getting it partially right with Core 2, but IMO AMD still is ahead in core efficiency.

          Though ironically enough, now that Apple abandoned the PPC, IBM is introducing a new PPC core that will spank Intel and AMD.
          Check out AnandTech’s article for a good compar-o of MacOS, Linux and Processors.
          http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2436
          I also found another overview of the Microkernel problem at:
          http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6105

          Tachyon

        • #3219183

          Tachyon and on

          by juleslt ·

          In reply to Close minded Mac Zealot?

          Tachyon – resulting to name-calling doesn’t help. I wouldn’t call myself a zealot, but I do think that a lot of what you posted was ignorant (not in the sense of rude and ignorant, but as in ‘lacking knowledge). Your second post is perhaps ignorant as in rude.

          >Assuming that anyone that dares to call the Mac UI inefficient is just an inexperienced user with an ulterior platform motive is silly.

          I said no such thing – I said that anyone calling OS X ‘unproductive’, especially if they are familiar with Unix, has obviously not investigated it. The large majority of my most was citing specific ways in which ‘power users’ customise their OS X workflows.

          > You can blather on about scripting and configuration and addons. But come on, the type of user that buys a Mac buys a tool, not a toy.
          >They don’t want to get elbows deep in the guts of the OS. Those users tend to use Linux.

          If you’re going to talk about facts vs opinions, that is an opinion. There’s a lively – if small – community of people out there who have come to the Mac with prior Unix skills.
          Mostly, however, I was talking about things like Automator and Applescript that allow people to ‘script’ without going anywhere near the Unix terminal, and a lot of people do use it – especially people who use Macs as their main working tool. People use UI tweaking tools too, but those rarely seem to be for productivity reasons. You can’t get away with complaining about the out of the box experience, then complaining when I tell you how people actually use it.
          You can’t say ‘the type of user that buys a Mac buys a tool, not a toy’ and then pretend they’re all incapable of actually using anything other than the mouse.

          >A perfect example of Apple’s stupidity is their complete failure to ship a decent mouse with their systems. Sure the mice look nice, and feel nice to the hand, but 3 buttons and a scroll
          >wheel is the minimum these days for making the UI work for you.
          Unfortunately for your argument, todays Macs DO ship with a 4 button / scroll-ball mouse. They have finally acknowledged that most of their customers were throwing the shipped mice away and replacing them. Since the 80s. Seems odd to have supported multi-button mice so long without actually shipping them.

          On the other hand, I can fully understand why they did it – trying to force developers to focus on working with a one-button device, and thinking about their UI. Face a new user with 3-buttons to choose from and it is far from obvious which button does what. Software developers never actually see that at all. In fact we tend to prefer complex and customisable systems (i.e. Eclipse).

          >This meta key click nonsense is annoying and slows your work.
          Yep. It does undo the whole single-button point when users NEED to use the meta-keys. And increasingly that has become the problem (even with Apple’s own software).

          >It ships in it’s prettiest, most dumbed down mode which interferes with productivity.
          I’d disagree – to a degree – the OOB experience is definitely aimed at making things easy for a new user. On the other hand, features like emacs key bindings in all text windows are also there OOB (they don’t need to be turned on) which I don’t call ‘dumbed down’. I don’t quite understand what, specifically, gets in the way of your ‘productivity’ and as said in my original post, it seems (to me) like you have little interest in improving it. That’s fine, so long as you’re not going to say it’s unproductive compared to a system you have spent time learning. That’s like me saying I find French less productive than German.

          I also don’t automatically equate ‘pretty’ with ‘dumbed down’, which seems to be something you do.

          >The damn finder is another example. I’ve never seen such a worthless file manager.
          Agreed. I recall it being a POS back in the late 80s trying to use it with networks. I don’t think the Finder design has ever scaled to anything much larger than floppies and the very small early HD. Mac users have been complaining about it for years, hence the market for at least 3 replacements. And it looks like, with a job ad last year for a designer to work on the Finder, Apple are about to replace it. On the other hand, I largely use Spotlight or todos (an app launcher) – so I don’t really get stressed over the issues you mentioned re. icon ordering. Other people swear by Butler, Quicksilver, etc.

          >Every part of the UI wastes space on eye candy, yet Apple always screws you on desktop space. Oh sure, you can get a pro Mac and a megabucks Cinema display and get a
          >reasonable desktop size. But OOB, most affordable Macs have pathetic screen resolutions and mice. Look at the iMac/iBook line. Almost worthless for productivity. Apple themselves
          >recognize the problem of wasted UI space, why do you think they include Expose’ ?

          I think that again comes down to opinion. Dock – switch it to hide. Having a single app menu at the top saves space over menus per window. Not really sure which other elements you find wasteful. Perhaps icon size on apps (typically double the size on windows)?
          The 13″ MacBook supports 1280×800 which seems par for the course on a laptop of that size (same as a top end Sony VAIO). The iMac range also strikes me as having a perfectly reasonable resolution – same DPI as the Cinema Displays (1680×1050 on the 17″ model, more on the 20 and 24″ models). These things (as with the multi-button mouse) are not difficult to research. For someone who has accused my response of being neither useful or factually based, that is a bit of a small flaw.

          >Recently I foolishly decided to use iMovie to put together a short multimedia presentation. What a nightmare. The UI was constantly in the way. You can’t even insert stills without first
          >importing them into iPhoto. Not to mention how much Apple software won’t even install if it doesn’t think your hardware configuration is adequate.

          Apparently you could have used the ‘Import’ menu option to do it, but I agree drag and drop into the timeline would have been better. (You can also drag photos in from a folder as a background to a title, but not to make a slideshow. And you can definitely drag a folder of photos into the slideshow builder in iDVD).
          For multimedia presentations I’d personally use Keynote – then export to DVD or Quicktime – rather than software designed for importing and editing home movies from DV cameras. But I still don’t quite get this ‘the UI was constantly in the way’ thing. As opposed to what? I’m not saying it’s anywhere near perfect but it is fairly simple as far as movie editing software goes.

          Intel : I said they are CURRENTLY in the lead. You make the point that they have thrown out the P4 technology as a dead end and copied others. That is the very reason why they are currently in the lead. IBM’s new core will probably take the lead, just as the G5 did at the time. Such things are temporary, generally following generation shifts in architecture. (Although I do think that AMD gaining the technological lead, particularly in the server market, has shaken Intel out of their complacency).

          mach Kernel : There are constant rumours that it may be ditched (not from reputable sources) along with ‘they should use the Linux kernel’. I presume it is a legacy from when NextStep was supported on multiple hardware platforms? (although theNextStep frameworks also ran on top of multiple O/S if I recall)? It’s certainly been tweaked and optimised enough to support OS X that no one else wants Apple’s fork.It is also probably something down to Apple’s stubborn behaviour (one-button mice, Objective-C, Finder, not licencing the OS).

          Micro-kernels were one of those ideas – like OO programming – that also make a lot of academic sense and had (have?) a lot of backing in academic circles. The original Linus / Andy Tanenbaum discussions, show how heated the debate was back then. Not that mach is a true microkernel, and both Linux and Windows are moving some drivers out into userland on a pragmatic basis. Anyway, I’m not really that bothered by the debate (as with what CPU they use) – last time I compiled a Unix kernel was 1995.

          However, while it may seem a bit of a cop-out to disregard kernel benchmarks, I will say that on some levels it may be a bit like comparing the performance of C code and Java, as people did for the first few years, or hand-coded flat-file access wirth databases – the historical trend is towards abstraction over performance. (On the other hand, if you implement your idea to far ahead of performance – as both Smalltalk and early micro-kernels did – you’ll be forever tarred with the ‘badly performing’ brush). At the end of the day, desktop systems spend most of their time idle and waiting for UI events.

          Whether I’d consider running OS X Server to support a web server based on mySQL and apache receiving thousands of requests is another matter of course 🙂

          >If you are a user who wants a computing tool that is a black box, then Macs can be great, IF you add a real mouse and a decent sized monitor.
          >If you want the ultimate in configurability and versatility, go Linux.
          >If you want somewhere in between, go Windows XP and lots of security and anti-malware tools.

          And this is really the source of my disagreement with your original post.

          I won’t dispute that Linux is, by a long way, the most versatile OS, but I would definitely dispute that OS X is any way less configurable / versatile / dumber than XP – particularly out of the box. I think you don’t have enough knowledge of it to be qualified in making your comparison.

          Go back to my previous post and consider how easy it would be to set up the File to Bluetooth phone workflow I discussed, under Windows (I know it would be trivial under Linux). Consider if it would even be possible for a non-programmer to do it.
          Ignoring the fact the phone came with Windows client software . . .

        • #3218957

          Nice job JulesLt

          by jackg058 ·

          In reply to Tachyon and on

          Not only did you do a good job in a point-by-point response, but you did so in an informative manner, thus allowing us who are still fairly new to Mac OS X to pick up some nice pointers.

          I love OS X. I love what I have found that I can do with it, and I love that I continue to be educated with even more possibilities for this OS.

          I will not be upgrading to Vista. I just don’t see the value. I will upgrade my Tiger to Leopard, as Apple is offering features that make it worth the bucks. Time Machine, Spaces, and Mail are just 3 of the examples.

          Long live Mac OS X!!!

    • #3218302

      Not too difficult.

      by riphly ·

      In reply to buy an iMac or a PC?

      First, you will need less computing power than a windows
      based machine. If a windows machine requires 2 gigs, an
      Apple will do just as well with 1 gig. This is because the
      software is more concise and more tightly written.

      There are numerous tutorials available from on-line and
      free from Apple and on several support group sites about
      how to add memory to any machine. It is no more difficult
      than with a PC. It all looks about the same inside.

      If you use an external hard drive ‘tower’, you’ll approach it
      about the same way as you would a windows machine.
      Just be sure that the external drive/tower has Apple
      drivers and software for installation.

      Also, some external drives meant for windows only but
      which can be used with macs refuse to allow copying of
      files with the longer file names and punctuation
      characters that mac allows.

    • #3217466

      Get a Mac and Dual Boot

      by spkurth ·

      In reply to buy an iMac or a PC?

      Why not get a new Mac and partition it to dual boot? You can now run Windows on your new Mac if you need to. It seems like the best of both worlds to me. I have always loved the Mac OS ’cause everything just flows so naturally, but there are times when you need Windows for specific tasks. I own both machines, but when it comes time to buy I will get be getting the new Pentium Mac and installing Windows Whatever.

    • #3274480

      Go for it

      by strauner ·

      In reply to buy an iMac or a PC?

      I use and do work on both types of machines. You will have no problems going to a Mac. The biggest difference is that everything is one step easier with a Mac. The biggest problem is getting the iMac open to add RAM and swap out the hard drive.

    • #2439860

      buyer’s remorse

      by good_karma ·

      In reply to buy an iMac or a PC?

      I took the plunge and attempted to convert to apple. It’s not as intuitive as one would think. Even little things like page-up is different (fn key + the up arrow)

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