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  • #2197002

    Christmas has been hijacked

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    by maxwell edison ·

    I received an email recently inviting me to a [i]Holiday Party[/i]. Okay, nothing new there. [i]Christmas Parties[/i] have long been replaced by [i]Holiday Parties[/i] in most places, and extra effort is often made to include those from faiths outside Christianity, as well as agnostics, and atheists. What was interesting about this particular invitation, however, was that while it excluded any mention of Christian themes, it INCLUDED themes from other religions and cultures.

    Happy Hanukkah, it said, below an image of a Menorah; Happy Kwanzaa, it said, below an image of a Kinara; Happy Holidays, it said, below an image of a snowman and snowflakes. What? No Christmas? Neither in word or image?

    I blame stupidly and ignorance on the part of the person who generated the invitation, and an over-zealous attempt to let political correctness trump reason. What happens when Christians feel offended because their religious faith and culture is excluded while others are specifically included?

    Now I’m no Bible thumper by any stretch of the imagination. And I hardly ever discuss my own spiritual beliefs. But if people don’t like others who celebrate the CHRISTAIN HOLIDAY called, CHRISTMAS, then don’t celebrate.

    What was once an almost exclusive Christian day of celebration and remembrance, soon became watered-down, and has now expelled the very thing that started it all – Christmas.

    MERRY CHRISTMAS, everybody. And if that offends you, that’s just too bad.

All Comments

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    • #2865068

      Merry Christmas to you, too, Max.

      by boxfiddler ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      Merry Christmas to all! 🙂

    • #2865067

      WOW !

      by santeewelding ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      Thank you, Max.

    • #2865066

      Second time through

      by santeewelding ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      Tears, the second time, too; for a multiplicity of reasons.

    • #2865062

      Merry Christmas, Max

      by nicknielsen ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      <:o) As for hijacking Christmas, that has long been in progress, and was one of Stan Freberg's targets. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5IXlfJSEi4

    • #2865061

      Merry Christmas

      by michael jay ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      A Very Merry Christmas to all.

    • #2865049

      Bureauprats is my name for the PC idiots

      by neilb@uk ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      You know, they are nearly always white, middle-class and guilt-ridden (about what?). They are the people responsible for “inclusion policies” in schools that removes all of the fun from Christmas in an effort to avoid “upsetting” those of different faiths. Hey, guys, Muslims and the like really couldn’t give a chuff! Many schools are dropping the traditional Nativity Play in favour of a multi-faith or secular alternative. I don’t have kids but, if I did, even this rabid atheist wouldn’t be offended if my girl got to play Mary. The STARRING ROLE! Christmas is a time for fairy stories and pantomimes and the Nativity story should be considered in the same spirit.

      The bureauprats are joined by the simple kill-joy. Bah! Humbug! A school carol concert in Dudley in the UK was scrapped because a resident objected to the application for an entertainment licence by the organisers. Oh, I do hope his name leaked out…

      I LOVE listening to traditional Christmas Carols.

      HAPPY CHRISTMAS!

      😀

      • #2865025

        Spot on, Neil

        by maxwell edison ·

        In reply to Bureauprats is my name for the PC idiots

        You da’ man!

        Here’s a traditional Christmas Carol for your listening pleasure – one that will push the Christain envelope:

        • #2865022

          Repeat

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to Spot on, Neil

          Does no one see the Magic?

          It has nothing to do with the schlep of religion.

          If you see the magic, are you not compelled to speak?

        • #2864946

          I think I see it…

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to Repeat

          but as I’m caught up in it, I wonder if it’s a figment.
          And figs with mint?
          BleX, no thanks.

        • #2864945

          Take it

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to I think I see it…

          From one who can out-atheist any atheist on the planet, including Neil: ain’t no figment.

        • #2864930

          Can you

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to Take it

          out-agnostize an agnostic too? Tell me how!

        • #2871545

          Oh,

          by seanferd ·

          In reply to Can you

          I thought you wrote, “out-antagonize”. :^0

        • #2865008

          Interesting. That’s not one I know well

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Spot on, Neil

          I wonder if we have different carols?

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-DAUT5POuY

          🙂

        • #2865005

          What atheists need to do

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to Interesting. That’s not one I know well

          Is to come on full force, legions represented in their front lines, by stellar examples such as these.

          Otherwise, stay down where you belong.

        • #2865002

          Down? Or maybe up?

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to What atheists need to do

          Some of the most beautiful music has been inspired by faith. One need not have faith to appreciate these things, but one should accept that it shaped their makers.

          🙂

          Written before your country was a country.

        • #2864993

          Sorry, Neil

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to Down? Or maybe up?

          Just watched the food-court performance again — sixth or seventh time, now.

          Until atheists stand one after the other, under an Arbys sign, and stun the assembled with surprise excellence, your cause has no chance.

        • #2864953

          I think you’re getting a bit confused

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Sorry, Neil

          Yes, the music was inspired by Handel’s faith and the words are from the Bible, but to imply that only Christians sing it…

          Or enjoy it?

          But, because it’s nearly Christmas – Season of Good Will – I’ll let it go.

          🙂

        • #2864942

          The atheist

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to Sorry, Neil

          They are my playthings.

        • #2864929

          Atheists can’t win.

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to Sorry, Neil

          A religion around the nonexistence of a worthy target for worship cannot fly. To try and disprove an infalsifiable is a hobby for willful nobility and practising royalty – and I think you all can guess what should be done to those.

        • #2864915

          Ansu?

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to Sorry, Neil

          Punny points for your post title… :p

        • #2864894

          Yay!

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to Sorry, Neil

          How was it funny? ?:| :p

        • #2871640

          Punny, Ansu. Punny.

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to Sorry, Neil

          And if you have to ask, I’m horribly disappointed. 🙁

        • #2871611

          Now

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to Sorry, Neil

          I feel dumb!
          Wait… I am dumb – no bad! :p 😉

          Atheists can’t win. I’m overlooking something…. Hey! You know what that means?!? I can learn something new!
          That’s awesome! 😀
          -Unless of course you don’t tell me what it is… that’d be evil! :O

        • #2871601

          Dumb?

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to Sorry, Neil

          Maybe. But you type a good lick. :^0

        • #2871597

          I’m licked…nt

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to Sorry, Neil

          Still don’t get it 😉
          I’m probably too pure and innocent…
          .
          .
          .
          *ROFLMFFAO*

        • #2864998

          Thanks for that, Max

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to Spot on, Neil

          For me, that song wraps the season up in a neat bow. When done well, it brings tears to my eyes. (When done poorly, it does the same.) She does well.

          My favorite arrangement is Mannheim Steamroller. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be on Youtube, and you can’t play it anywhere else without a membership.

        • #2864972

          My favorite.

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to Spot on, Neil

          Thank you, Max. 🙂

    • #2865047

      Good job of finding offense where none was intended. No text.

      by charliespencer ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      .

      • #2865029

        I pointed out that (probably) no offense was intended. And . . . . .

        by maxwell edison ·

        In reply to Good job of finding offense where none was intended. No text.

        ….. I never said that I was offended.

        I said, [i]”What was interesting about this particular invitation, however, was that …..”[/i]

        Interesting does not mean offended.

        And I went on to say, [i]”I blame stupidly and ignorance on the part of the person who generated the invitation, and an over-zealous attempt to let political correctness trump reason.”[/i]

        But me being offended? I never said that. I did, however, wonder about other people who might be offended because of the convoluted and warped way Christmas has come to be seen in a politically correct world of not offending non-Christians.

        [i]”What happens when Christians feel offended because their religious faith and culture is excluded while others are specifically included?”[/i]

        And when I made that comment, I didn’t – nor have I ever – claimed to be a Christian. I’ve not discussed that one way or the other.

        [i]”Now I’m no Bible thumper by any stretch of the imagination. And I hardly ever discuss my own spiritual beliefs.”[/i]

        I might be a Jew, or something else, or nothing at all, for all you know.

        P.S. Good job of reading something that wasn’t there.

    • #2865046

      Merry Christmas Max

      by purpleskys ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      I couldn’t agree with you more. Christmas has become over-commerialized, a “who got the better gifts” type competition.

      For me, Christmas time is all about family. We don’t often get to all be in the same place at the same time, so it’s important to me that we’re together at Christmas. We spend Christmas Day with my family and Boxing Day with Darryl’s family.

      Now, I don’t take anything from the beliefs of other cultures, but by golly, Christmas is part of my culture, please don’t bully me into making it something it isn’t.

      This one is by The Rankin Sisters from Cape Breton, it’s a pretty song and it’s sung in Gaelic
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOHKA0elcCc

    • #2865038

      Was there also

      by ansugisalas ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      “Good Yule!” with a picture of a viking, roast piglet in hand and beard full of gravy?

      • #2864995

        Hey!

        by nicknielsen ·

        In reply to Was there also

        You leave my family out of this! :p

        • #2864947

          Ah, so that’s where they went…

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to Hey!

          Apparently some people never got the idea that “lying in viking” is a seasonal job. Never bothered to return to base, just kept going 😉

        • #2864911

          Viking joke

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Ah, so that’s where they went…

          “Sven”, says the chieftain, “Do you wonder why you’re not a very popular member of any raiding party? Well, it’s just that you don’t seem to have grasped the Rules of Viking: First rape, then pillage, [i]then[/i] burn.”

          🙂

    • #2865026

      I’m having trouble

      by santeewelding ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      Making out the character of the responses so far. What Max said leading up to his “introduction” of the YouTube video was schlep.

      The video was nothing less than an ambush by God, no matter how you count yourself.

      • #2865023

        Re: an ambush by God

        by maxwell edison ·

        In reply to I’m having trouble

        Which one – or which ones – of the singers in the food court was God?

      • #2865006

        It’s a lovely piece of music

        by neilb@uk ·

        In reply to I’m having trouble

        but I don’t really consider the “God” part.

        I’ve seen (well, listened to, really) Messiah live several times and it’s just something to wallow in.

        🙂

        • #2864992

          Wallow

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to It’s a lovely piece of music

          That’s a good description of what I do: stretch out my legs, cross my arms, close my eyes, and tip my head back. Then just listen and smile until it’s over…

          Brahms’ Requiem has the same effect, as does Beethoven’s Ninth, Ravel’s arrangement of Pictures at an Exhibition, Gregorian chants, and any Russian liturgical music.

        • #2864990

          Same effect

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to Wallow

          Dumbstruck at all else that others do, and have done through all these ages, that I have proven incapable of doing myself.

          It’s what I mean by, “the rest of you”, meaning in no small measure those of you here.

        • #2864979

          You have

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to Same effect

          achievements of your own, among them the creation of art, in more than one form.

          With regard to creation, I am a novice; my art is seen only indirectly.

        • #2864976

          You are coy

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to You have

          I have it on good authority: me.

        • #2871609

          Anyone for Pergolesi?

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to Wallow

          Stabat Mater.
          I know it’s more of an easter thing, but seriously; that music kicks my butt.

        • #2871578

          Good choices all

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Wallow

          I will add a few more in.

          As a singer I have an aversion to the 9th. Its something to do with the vocal straining that inevitably happens. I know professionals who hate to perform it. I do like the sentiment.

          As for Requiems, the Mozart is dramatic. But I prefer to perform the Faure. Its vision of heaven “In Paradisium” to me is subtle and nicely coloured and sublime. My youngest daughter would accompany me to rehersals, and she would cry(and not because she missed someone or because it was bad) during that piece.

          I’ve always liked any of the Russian group of 5. I played that piece in High School, once as a brass player, once on ympani, and loved it.

          As for Gregorian Chant, I went here during my Austria/Czech trip:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heiligenkreuz_Abbey

          Didn’t get to hear them live but bought a CD, great stuff.

          My favorite Ave Maria (and I’m not catholic) is by Biebl. He combines Gregorian chant and modern choral singing. I’m sure you can find it on YouTube, I can’t access it from work.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Biebl
          Sadly I was in a choir, trying to produce an album, and we tried to record this and it wasn’t up to our standards, because it was a demanding piece and we didn’t have time to learn it. Chanticleer does it very well, if you look maybe you can find their televised concert on TV near Christmas, it is very good.

        • #2871544

          Some links now I am home

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Good choices all

          Biebel Ave Maria:
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WSbq3TCcd0

          Faure Requiem – In Paradisium
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82L8AaqA-Dc

          You can find a mixed choir of both pieces if thats more to your taste. I’ve only performed them in a mixed choir.

          I’d not be unhappy if someone played these at my funeral.

        • #2871379

          The most difficult for me

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to Good choices all

          I’ve performed Carmina Burana three times: twice in the chorus, and once in the orchestra. I much preferred the orchestra.

          I sang second tenor for the first choral performance, baritone for the second. Orff appears to have believed that the accepted ranges for male voices were just too low. In the arrangement we had, both tenor parts were written using treble clef, the baritone using tenor clef. (Added: The tenor parts were sung as written and not tranposed down the octave!) I don’t think the first tenors ever dropped below the staff, and the second tenors might have gone as low as middle C once or twice. The baritones had notes above the staff (in [u]tenor clef[/u]!) Even the basses had parts with a ledger line or two involved.

          I remember the tenor soloist breaking us up during a dress rehearsal by commenting that he couldn’t do justice to Olim lacus colueram that night because he saved his tightest shorts for performances.

          First trumpet was much easier.

        • #2871341

          You know…

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to The most difficult for me

          all this time I was thinking of mentioning Carmina… but since we were talking religious – as opposed to deliberately blasphemous – music, I didn’t. I’m sorry for the faux pas of underestimating TR subject flux :D.

          A funny thing; over here, Ibuprofen pain killers are marketed mostly under a big brand name – Burana! To my mind always comes an image from that; a man with a hangover getting blasted with, in sequence, two phrase fragments – the opening O Fortuna! Immediately followed by “WAAAAFNA!!!”. Repeat ad nauseam ]:)

        • #2857784

          Even better…..

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to You know…

          The crash symbols after the line – repeatedly.

        • #2857777

          Ah yes…

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to You know…

          the part where it reads “just beat the hell out of them symbals until your arms ache” in the notes.

        • #2857732

          Copeland works too.

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to You know…

          I was a young airman and my then-roommate had been so loud coming in the night before, he woke the people in the rooms on either side. He had to work that morning, just like everybody else in the barracks, but was still sound asleep. So we gave him an alarm: Fanfare for the Common Man.

          GONGGGG. BOOM BOOM!

          He sat bolt upright, holding his head.

          Gongggg. Boom Boom!

          He laid back down.

          gonggg. boom boom!

          He thought he was home-free…

          BA-DA-DAAAAAAA!

          :^0

          If you can’t tell, I was not particularly fond of this particular roommate. B-)

        • #2871374

          I’ve done Carmina twice

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Good choices all

          And both times I wished I was playing the timpani like I did in high school.

          Loved doing it Carmina.

        • #2871367

          It’s a blast

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to I’ve done Carmina twice

          The most fun I ever had in performance was brass choir. Mostly the Baroque classics (Purcell, Albinoni Bach, Handel, etc.), but we also did more current arrangements (Herb Alpert, for example). Then our music director introduced us to Fanfare for the Common Man. We had to bring in the rest of the brass (all seven of them 🙂 ), borrow two tympani, and import two horn players, but we did it, and fairly well, too.

          But that year, from a 35-chair high school band, we sent six of seven trumpets to county festival: four to band, and both first and second chair in county orchestra. That was the year we did Carmina.

          Band had it easy that year: Buglers Holiday and Variations on America, among others.

        • #2871364

          I love Aaron Copeland

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to It’s a blast

          I have an album with the Lincoln Portrait

          as well as Fanfare and parts of Rodeo. Great stuff all of it.

        • #2871337

          Ooh. Copeland.

          by seanferd ·

          In reply to It’s a blast

          Thanks for that.

    • #2864922

      Thanks Max, and the others who have posted videos

      by jardinier ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      I personally consider Handel’s Messiah to be the greatest single work of music ever written. I also love the traditional Christmas carols, well known hymns and other liturgical music for the SOUND, not the words or the message.

      I would consider it hypocritical for an atheist to declare a liking for this kind of music and at the same time deny the existence of God. Without the religion of Christianity this music would never have been composed in the first place.

      Now I will try to embed these videos in my Christian website. 🙂

      • #2864919

        SUCCESS !!!

        by jardinier ·

        In reply to Thanks Max, and the others who have posted videos

        Thank you Max, ever so much for the video and thanks to those who contributed other Xmas videos. These have now been successfully embedded in

        http://thechristianwebsite.com

        and:

        http://www.thirdworldorphans.org

        This will bring great joy and pleasure to those good Christian folk, many of whom I have got to know well, who care for orphans in Third World countries.

      • #2864917

        Hypocritical?

        by nicknielsen ·

        In reply to Thanks Max, and the others who have posted videos

        It is hypocritical for an atheist to appreciate a thing of beauty? That statement assumes facts not in evidence.

        Beyond this comment, not even going there. I can hear the merry-go-round.

        • #2871600

          On the contrary…

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to Hypocritical?

          I would consider it a folly of the highest order if an atheist (or an agnostic) were to dislike such works on the grounds of it’s literal content.

          If it’s a question of taste, that’s acceptable, but there really are atheists out there so insecure that they can’t enjoy a thing of beauty (subjectively, to them) on account of it’s associations.

        • #2871382

          That’s not our problem

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to On the contrary…

          …[i]there really are atheists out there so insecure that they can’t enjoy a thing of beauty (subjectively, to them) on account of it’s associations. [/i]

          If they can’t accept that others may find inspiration (and beauty) in something in which they don’t believe, that’s [b]their[/b] problem. Regardless of the inspiration, beauty is its own reason for existence.

      • #2864914

        Julian, you’re being an arse again

        by neilb@uk ·

        In reply to Thanks Max, and the others who have posted videos

        To repost my comment to Santee.

        “Some of the most beautiful music has been inspired by faith. One need not have faith to appreciate these things, but one should accept that it shaped their makers.”

        I see no hypocrisy in that. Merely acceptance of what has been, and what is, now. And what will probably be.

        Neil

        Oh, and compared to Mozart’s Don Giovanni or Verdi’s Aida – among many, many others – Messiah is an advertising jingle. But that’s just my opinion.

        • #2864912

          Hyperbole,

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to Julian, you’re being an arse again

          much? :p

        • #2864909

          And a half

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Hyperbole,

          But just to make my point.

          :p right back at you

        • #2871484

          But that’s just my opinion

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to Julian, you’re being an arse again

          Indeed music is a matter of personal taste. I find opera unsufferably boring, with the exception of isolated arias.

          It is not necessary to call me an “arse” just because you don’t like my opinions.

          I will not digress to a comparison between atheists and religious. I take each person as I find them. In my opinion you are an ……. fill in the blank as you please.

          Go worship your non-god and stop annoying me.

        • #2871452

          I didn’t call you an arse because our musical tastes differ

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to But that’s just my opinion

          I called you one because you labelled me as a “hypocrite” based on some really quite strange logic.

        • #2871438

          some really quite strange logic.

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to I didn’t call you an arse because our musical tastes differ

          Hi Neil. You enjoy music that was composed by people who had faith in God.

          If that God didn’t exist, as you believe, there would be no such music for you to enjoy.

          Therefore you are enjoying something which, according to your viewpoint (there is no god), would never have been written in the first place.

          I think that’s logical enough.

          But I’m biased. I think atheism is an illogical viewpoint. I know rather a lot about Christians, mainly from the online discussions. Many of these people’s faith is supported by tangible, subjective experience.

          Perhaps you could offer some personal experience which has convinced you that there is no god.

          If you cannot, then it is just an opinion without substantiation and is quite meaningless as far as I am concerned.

        • #2871423

          Logical enough – hah!

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to some really quite strange logic.

          OK, gloves off.

          Let’s try to put it simply – for the hard of understanding. Absolutely I enjoy things that would not have been written if the author didn’t BELIEVE that God existed. What the AUTHOR believed may differ from MY beliefs but that doesn’t alter my appreciation of the music. The libretto of Messiah, derived from the Bible is, to me, as much fiction as the story told in Carmen but that doesn’t matter at all. It isn’t MORE fictional because it’s religious.

          EVERYBODY believes something different to everyone else.

          Every composer reflects to a greater or lesser extent the cultural, religious and politics of the time and environment in which they wrote. The majority of circumstances and contexts are totally alien to me yet it doesn’t detract from my enjoyment of the music.

          You know, I’m not going to point out the fact that you say that YOU aren’t a Christian and that YOU enjoy Carols and that, somehow, YOU aren’t a hypocrite and I am because that would just be too easy. Just show you up as the idiot you are. No. I’m better than that. So I’ll not mention it. Mmmmmph! Zipped shut!

          Faith supported by subjective experience? Do you realise how stupid that statement is? I suspect not. No, I really can’t be bothered to try to give you a “personal experience” because, you see, I don’t wish (and I’m certainly not told by my Book of Holy Words) to convince you, convert you, save your immortal soul or otherwise attempt to change your views in the slightest. Trust me, your immortal soul – should you have one – is yours to do with as you see fit.

          Yes, it’s an opinion! It’s MY opinion! It’s MY logic that brings me to believe what I believe and to disbelieve what I disbelieve. Yes! Just mine! Nobody TOLD me to do it.

          I.WORKED.IT.OUT.ALL.ON.MY.OWN.

          Without a safety net.

          Is the penny at last dropping? Probably not.

          Oh, and like I give a rat’s fart what YOU think! There are people on this board who I do respect – nearly all of them, in fact, and some quite a lot – whether I agree with them or not.

          But you aren’t one of them.

          Oh, no.

          Not even close.

        • #2871397

          But … atheist… really?

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to Logical enough – hah!

          It’s such an ironic thing, believing that there’s no cause for belief. At odds with itself.
          I know some people think agnosticism is wishy-washy bet-hedging non-committing baloney.
          It’s not. In fact, it’s really scary.
          See, there’s the VOID. It’s there. It’s nothingness and the feeling that something may, or may not, be watching from that nothingness.
          Some believers say “There’s something there, alright, it’s my master – it’s looking out for me, because I follow this book here, and what I feel inside when I read it”.
          Atheists say “There’s nothing there. Nope. Closing my eyes here, not looking. Stuffing my ears too, laa-laaa-laa-laaa, can’t hear a thing.”
          Agnostics know there’s either something there or not. And they accept it, turning their backs on the VOID, despite the feeling of eyes staring, or no eyes not staring, at them, from out of nothing. It takes discipline not freak out, and it takes discipline to not decide either way.

          No comfortable lies (that may or may not turn out to be true).

        • #2871388

          What about gay songwriters , are straight people hypocrites too?

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to some really quite strange logic.

          I bet you’ve never liked a gay songwriter, it would be very unChristian to do so and obviously would make you a hypcrite, being a straight man.

          When a gay man writes music that is based on the experiences and feelings of being a gay man and it appeals to millions of straight men worldwide, are they all hypocrites?

          Elton John, Freddy Mercury (Queen), Rob Halford (Judas Priest).

          If Holwin’ Wolf didn’t have a hard time being acceppted as a minority, if his love interests did not fail, if he hadn’t fallen on hard times, if he didn’t drink himself into sadness, much of the blues that he wrote would not exist either. The thousands of bands, Beatles, Stones, The WHO, countless heavy metal acts, Jimmy Hendrix, ZZtop, rock N roll in general, would not exist. Enjoying and being influenced by their music does not mean that you want support being a black man fighting against repression, or that I want to get drunk and forget my lost loves, nor can I say I even fully understand or view it from his perspective. I have my OWN feelings when I listen to his music that are not driven by sharing his views.

          I don’t think you gave your comments a moment’s thought, if so it is premeditated baiting. I think you posted purely from emotion and your continually stated disinterest in people of alternate or nor chosen faith.

        • #3039059

          You are missing the point

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to What about gay songwriters , are straight people hypocrites too?

          Firstly, as stated elsewhere, I do not call myself a Christian. Secondly, I am not a homophobe.

          [i]”your continually stated disinterest in people of alternate or no chosen faith.”[/i]

          I don’t know where you got those ideas. I am always in trouble at Christian websites for saying good things about other religions, especially Eastern religions. At various times on census forms I have stated as my religion: “Hindu” or “Taoist.”

          I have nothing against atheists but I tire of those who make a religion of their belief and never miss an opportunity to remind me (us).

          There are many, many atheists who get on with their lives quietly without blowing their atheist trumpet all the time.

        • #2871352

          Logic.

          by seanferd ·

          In reply to some really quite strange logic.

          I’m having some difficulty with this:

          You enjoy music that was composed by people who had faith in God.

          If that God didn’t exist, as you believe, there would be no such music for you to enjoy.

          How does that even make sense? All that is required is for the Believers to have their faith, and an artful way of expressing it, regardless as to whether or not their particular god(s) exist(s).

          Do people who find the remaining bit of the Parthenon beautiful have to believe in Athena? If not, does that make them hypocritical?

        • #2871390

          How is that done?

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to But that’s just my opinion

          How do you worship a non-God?

          If you don’t believe in something, does that mean you must then worship something else?

        • #2871381

          You could

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to How is that done?

          simply choose to not worship anything.

        • #2871355

          Still doesn’t work

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to You could

          if you didn’t worship anything, you still wouldn’t be “worshipping” a non God. It’s just complete and utter BS.

        • #2871391

          Advertising jIngle

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Julian, you’re being an arse again

          I can see that in the sense that it has been commericialized and used for setting th etone of Christmas due to it’s popularity and people’s familiarity.

          Personally I am a huge Bruckner fan, but that’s neither here nor there with respect to this thred.

        • #3039070

          I find it extremely offensive

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to Advertising jIngle

          to label this majestic oratorio an “advertising jingle.”

          Offensive, stupid and probably a reaction to the Christian content.

        • #3039052

          I suppose…

          by puppybreath ·

          In reply to I find it extremely offensive

          You’d also find it offensive if someone heard it played on an elevator and referred to it as “elevator music”?

        • #3039042

          It was a comparison, not a labeling

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to I find it extremely offensive

          neil compared The Messiah specifically to Don Giovanni and Aida: two operas. He obviously thinks the operas are of much higher quality than The Messiah. I’m not a fan of opera, so I disagree.

          And if you look at Handel’s history, you may find calling him the Billy Davis of his day is a valid comparison.

        • #3039035

          Ax Boxfiddler pointed out as well

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to It was a comparison, not a labeling

          I used a LOT of hyperbole to make my point.

          Really, I think that Messiah is a fine piece of music but it is one where few could – or would want to – whistle anything other than the Hallelujah Chorus.

          🙂

        • #3039034

          I’ll whistle along to the Overture

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to Ax Boxfiddler pointed out as well

          😀

          And sing along as best I can on all the choruses. My favorite part of the whole has always been the first half of Part Two. The Hallelujah Chorus is a majestic piece of music, but I like these choruses more:

          – Behold the Lamb of God
          – Surely He hath borne our griefs
          – And with His stripes
          – All we, like sheep,
          – He trusted in God

          I think it’s the minor keys…although when I was younger, it could have been the message.

        • #3038996

          One of the few

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Ax Boxfiddler pointed out as well

          As a majestic chorus, I prefer “Worthy is the lamb”.

          Some of my favorite moments are not the choruses but the solos. The duet “He shall feed his flock” is often touching.

          As a singer, and I know others feel this way, the Halleljah chorus is “too” familiar. Its often done as a highlight at Christmas even when you aren’t doing the whole Messiah, brought out as an encore etc.

        • #3038993

          For the lonely farmers

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to Ax Boxfiddler pointed out as well

          I think it’s probably empowering to hear the “and we like sheep” chorus… not alone, then in spirit 😉 :p

      • #2864908

        Handel’s Messiah

        by jamesrl ·

        In reply to Thanks Max, and the others who have posted videos

        Its a piece I know well, having performed it more time than I can count. In the mid 80s I actually had the bass choral parts memorized, and on one occasion sang it with no music.

        But I don’t consider it the greatest piece of music ever composed or even the greatest piece of Christian choral music.

        There are many lovely moments in it. The Hallelujah chorus is not my favorite.

        And I don’t think you have to be Christian to appreciate its beauty. I appreciate many kinds of music, some sung in languages I don’t understand but that doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate good technique in the wirting and performing. In one major choir I was in we had a few Jewish members who didn’t hesitate to sing the Messiah and they enjoyed it, without believing in everything in the piece. In turn, I’ve sung in a synagoge, in Hebrew and appreciated that music.

        • #2871593

          I sang in Rachmaninov’s Vesper…

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to Handel’s Messiah

          Awesome piece… four hours long. Sort of like a singing marathon, had to rehearse carefully to get everything together and still not wear everybody out.

          I was in the third Basso group – that is; lower than the ones that are lower than the baritones. There was, as I recall, an H under the Low C in there… now that’s not going to be really audible, can’t even shout with notes that low – but the overtones will have their effect.

        • #2871556

          I joined a top choir

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to I sang in Rachmaninov’s Vesper…

          One year after they did the Vespers, and for many of them it was one of the most demanding things they have done.

          Not for the music itself, but for the challenge of Russian.

          As a choristor I’ve sung many many times in Latin, German and French. Occasionally I’ve sung in Hebrew and Gaelic. I’ve sung in made up languages. But I trust my peers about singing in Russian, I’m sure that for Russians or other slavic natives they feel the same about some other language.

          I’m a baritone, there have been times I’ve had to try to sing that low. An e flat below the Bass stave is as low as I can make any real noise. On the other hand I can sing almost as high as a tenor, albeit for a limited time.

        • #2871517

          It’s just phonetics

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to I joined a top choir

          Russian as such isn’t a problem, just have to take control of one’s tongue.
          I can’t do tenor range-stuff without going all-out. I’m ok as long as it’s a forte fortissimo or greater.
          Piano pianissimo? No way!

          I can do contra-tenor range stuff in falsetto of course, but I haven’t trained it.

        • #2871478

          I have sung the tenor range

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to It’s just phonetics

          In the 80s and even early 90s, I could force myself to sing tenor. But now its too much of a strain. As I’m sure you know tenors are in high demand and last year I was asked to sing the Messiah as a tenor. It took a lot out of my voice, and I told the conductor after it was done, never again.

          If you listen to the Biebl “ave maria” that I posted the link to, when my choir did it I did both the chants, which are baritone, and I was part of the trio that sang above the main choir. There were a few notes above G that I had to do in falsetto.

        • #2871471

          Yeah, you’re more baritone than I

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to I have sung the tenor range

          I couldn’t do a tenor gig… not a baritone gig either; they never allow enough bühnenforterung for getting me off the ground comfortably.
          Like I said, ff is the very least volume I can do… I have strong cords, and strong lungs – I can get there, but only [b]LOUDLY[/b].

        • #2871368

          Ok confession time

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to I have sung the tenor range

          http://www.youtube.com/user/wrmp#p/a/u/6/FoawKrKsquw

          This is my choir, singing at L’eglise de la Madeline in Paris last March.

          The piece was written for women. But we were short a few low altos. So for the second and third parts I was asked to join them. I’m trying to blend, not to sing out too much, but to sound like an alto, its just on the edge of falsetto.

        • #2871359

          Good stuff

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to I have sung the tenor range

          Thanks.

        • #2871357

          Do you know where its from?

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to I have sung the tenor range

          Without resorting to google….

        • #2871350

          Nope.

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to I have sung the tenor range

          The cathedral looks familiar, though (was in Paris, sketching a bridge, once; stayed in a cheap place on the Left Bank; ate at [i]prix fixe[/i] places). Almost got killed crossing a roundabout by two cheap Renaults racing abreast that divided at the last moment.

          Must have been that God foresaw the need for me to be here celebrating Christmas with you guys.

        • #2871303

          Actually I was referring to the music

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to I have sung the tenor range

          The Eglise de la Madeline was built by Napoleon as a memorial to his Grand Army. When Napoleon was overthrown and monarchy restored, the king gave the place to the church. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89glise_de_la_Madeleine

          The music sounds old, but it was actually written by Richard Rodgers for the Sound of Music. It was sung near the beginning by the nuns. At Notre Dame, they demanded to vette every piece of music we sang and turned up their nose at this one, refusing because it wasn’t old enough, or written by a known classical composer. But we snuck it in anyway. L’Eglise de la Madeline didn’t vette the music, as long as it was sacred, they were happy.

        • #2857595

          I found some recordings of the Vespers

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to I sang in Rachmaninov’s Vesper…

          Priidite, poklonimsia

          Bogoroditse Devo

          I’ve sung in that choir, but I wasn’t around for that recording.

          Singing the Vespers was quite a rush. It was physically challenging – working the bellows at a controlled peak output for four hours – like walking uphill for four hours, minus the thin air, luckily.

        • #2857562

          My education in the classics

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to I found some recordings of the Vespers

          Better late than never, at my age. Thank you Ansu for those selections.

          I will endeavor to have them play when next at my anvil hammering work of the Lord.

        • #2857560

          Sweet.

          by seanferd ·

          In reply to I found some recordings of the Vespers

          Thank you.

        • #2857550

          Very nice

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to I found some recordings of the Vespers

          When I was in high school, the chorus did a piece by (I think) Bortniansky that was my introduction to Russian choral music. I can’t remember the name of the piece, but I can remember there were five voices: soprano, alto, tenor, baritone, and bass.

          And the basses got well down under the clef.

        • #2857527

          In this one…

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to Very nice

          two added lines, and only then – under – the note.

          But I love it that we could make something so heavy, so massive – dance, really dance. The mountain of sound swaying, with almost giddy movement of feet – chicken legged no doubt – underneath.

        • #2857547

          Stirrings

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to I found some recordings of the Vespers

          Since from second grade — age, seven?

          Her mom was the school nurse. Her dad was the Music Teacher. Music was mandatory where I went. So, I am proud to say that I know what means, G-clef. Went on from there to play the French Horn, to the dismay of my family through the year of a twelve-year-olds’ practice. Got that thing reasonably down with the lips and the tongue — the, phhbbtt — that makes the sound come out. I wanted the trumpet, but I was low boy on the totem pole, and the French Horn was all that was left.

          Like the redhead girl next door, she and her dad and her mom moved next door to my house — gadzooks! I was still too young, not to appreciate her charms, but the opportunity. She said to me one day, “You’re shy, aren’t you?” Stammer.

          They moved away next year. I have no idea of where they went or where she is, or if she still is.

          Love of my young life.

          Stirrings.

        • #2857528

          Noone

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to Stirrings

          does the stirring of passed pathways better than the russians.

        • #2857460

          Very true

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Noone

          I bought a cheap CD of various classical music and played it in the car one recent trip. It had a version of “Great Gate at Kiev” and I groaned when I heard it, as it was a solo piano instead of the full orchestra. Still it moved me – memories of playing it, 1812 Overture, Night on Bald Mountain, Sabre Dance etc as a brass player in high school.

          I will be getting a “real” version for Christmas and pumping it up – for the kids education of course.

        • #3039167

          I have an organ arrangement, as well

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to Noone

          It’s not on Youtube, but this one is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP5D_g-Irxo

          He uses a lot less legato than I’m used to.

          Edit: Oh, very nice. The entirety is here in three (correction, four) videos. The more I listen, the more inclined I become to start looking for the CD…whoa, runaway Bydlo! :0

        • #3039164

          Pictures at an exhibition…

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to Noone

          The whole thing…

          Somehow I’d hidden all these musical memories in a cache that now burst:
          Sacre du printemps, too!

          But the french have some good ones too; Bolero and Satie’s quirky piano little pieces.

        • #3039159

          Imagine my surprise

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to Noone

          as a teenager when I listened to Blood Sweat & Tears and heard the [i]Gymnopédies[/i].

        • #3039158

          Emerson Lake and Palmer

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Noone

          Pictures at an Exhibition.

        • #3039154

          Non Russian ELP , actually just L

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Noone

          But relevant to Christmas:

          They said there’ll be snow at Christmas
          They said there’ll be peace on Earth
          But instead it just kept on raining
          A veil of tears for the Virgin’s birth
          I remember one Christmas morning
          A winters light and a distant choir
          And the peal of a bell and that Christmas Tree smell
          And their eyes full of tinsel and fire
          They sold me a dream of Christmas
          They sold me a Silent Night
          And they told me a fairy story
          ‘Till I believed in the Israelite
          And I believed in Father Christmas
          And I looked at the sky with excited eyes
          ‘Till I woke with a yawn in the first light of dawn
          And I saw him and through his disguise

          I wish you a hopeful Christmas
          I wish you a brave New Year
          All anguish pain and sadness
          Leave your heart and let your road be clear
          They said there’ll be snow at Christmas
          They said there’ll be peace on Earth
          Hallelujah Noel be it Heaven or Hell
          The Christmas you get you deserve.

      • #2864904

        “So George do you believe in God”

        by tony hopkinson ·

        In reply to Thanks Max, and the others who have posted videos

        asks the local bishop, with twenty boys in red gowns behind him.

        Having given the extremely obvious answer.
        “So seeing you are a good christian fellow, could you knock up a nice tune for us?”
        Boys in red capes produce instruments of torture, pile of wood, some matches, but still have an anticipatory bulge left under their capes.

        That genius George disappoints them with the right answer again! His promising musical career, not ony continues but is provisionally endorsed by the catholic church who were an early version of Simon Cowell, though not as nice.

        So you were saying….

        I love it when christians call others hypocrites, it’s so easy to do people in when the catholic church had your back. Look them up, you’ll find them in any decent dictionary under hyprocrites.

        • #2871639

          Personally,

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to “So George do you believe in God”

          I’m of the opinion that the whole point of sin is hypocrisy.

        • #2871614

          Certainly sinning, i.e

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Personally,

          espousing a set of acceptable behaviors and then failing to follow them is hypocritical.
          As in practice what ‘you’ preach’

          Enforcing them while not applying them to ‘yourself’ is worse.

          If a PC berk describes someone as unskilled working class coloured, what are they really saying?
          Just a way of using the N word without being obviously impolite.

          F’ing condescending whiny ass ****y babies, the lot of ’em.

          I’m not offended by Happy Christmas barely means Christ’s Mass at all now does it, so why should I be?
          I could do with people not starting celebrating it in August mind, and better Xmas tv, but other than that, it’s smiling grand children, some time off work and a new pack of socks.

        • #2871480

          “I love it when christians call others hypocrites”

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to “So George do you believe in God”

          As I am not a Christian, never have been and hopefully never will be, I guess you are not referring to me.

          I am “religious” but I do not align with any particular religion or belief system as anyone who is familiar with my posts over the last several years would know.

          The fact remains however that, if it was not for the Christian religion, Western music would never have evolved in the manner it has, and there would be no Christmas music for people to enjoy.

          So people who enjoy Christmas music must accept that it has been created by people who do believe in the Christian god. This is not proof that such a god exists, but belief in this “being” must be respected as acceptable and due consideration given to those who have found their belief an inspiration to create beautiful things in various of the arts.

        • #2871479

          why

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to “I love it when christians call others hypocrites”

          do you have a christian web site then?

        • #2871463

          Why indeed?

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to why

          Because I have been associated with Christianity all my life, having attended many churches primarily for social reasons (i.e. to meet girls). I met my first lover, and later my wife, at Christian fellowships.

          I also love the sound of the organ (which I play to a modest degree) and the singing of the better known hymns.

          Because I live totally alone, as a way of interacting with people, I participate in online discussions at certain Christian website. I skate on thin ice there as my heretical views quickly become obvious.

          Because I enjoy building websites, I decided to put my knowledge of Christianity to some use and so created the website. It is possibly unique among Christian websites as I am not pushing any agenda.

          If you take a moment to read the introductory statement, you will find that I do not state that I am, was or am ever likely to be a Christian.

          Rather than waste time calling me an “arse,” Neil might consider building an atheist’s website.

        • #2871461

          Because you called Neil a hypocrite

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Why indeed?

          Plain and simple. You shouldn’t be surprised to get what you give.

        • #2871458

          I am never surprised by Neil

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to Because you called Neil a hypocrite

          His responses to my posts are always the same: “Julian, you’re being an arse again” (at least we both spell “arse” correctly) and this is regardless of the topic under discussion.

          Perhaps I should add that if someone called me a hypocrite, I would respond with something more imaginative than “You’re being an arse again.”

        • #2871453

          Julian, you could just stop being one

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Because you called Neil a hypocrite

          Hypocrisy is professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold. With respect to religion, that just isn’t possible for an overt atheist such as myself as we HAVE no beliefs. It really doesn’t stop me liking a nice tune – and admitting it. I’m quite amazed that you might think that you could call me a hypocrite and expect no response.

          Setting that aside, though, I’m hugely impressed that you’re now adding literary criticism to your skill set.

        • #2871449

          Atheist website

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Why indeed?

          Why would I bother? Everyone’s beliefs are their beliefs and I don’t wish to foist my lack of belief on anyone. If I were going to set up a web presence it would be a fishing or walking blog as ‘atheist’ is rather a small part of my life. I generally only bite when prodded or when I have the views of God-botherers or the wilfully ignorant pushed in my face.

        • #3039068

          A website I visit frequently

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to Atheist website

          during the course of discussions with Christians:

          http://skepticsannotatedbible.com

        • #3039057

          Atheist website. why would I bother?

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Atheist website

          What I believe, I worked out all on my own.

          However, I visited the site to see what was there. It’s difficult for me to get excited about it because my take on the Bible is that it is myth, oral history, dietary advice, moral tales and so on all wrapped up into something that many people take far, far too seriously. So, unless I want to particularly argue with Christians, I care not one jot for contradictions in the Bible.

          And I don’t. I don’t NEED to argue religion and I rarely do unless someone starts it.

          In the case of this thread, I was happy posting Christmas music until some Aussie Arse piped up with “I would consider it hypocritical for an atheist to declare a liking for this kind of music and at the same time deny the existence of God.”

          Couldn’t let that go, now, could I – you got right in my face. Especially when it was such an IDIOT statement – something recognised by every other poster as well.

          As I’ve said before, don’t prod and I won’t rip your arm off.

          🙂

        • #2871439

          Right so you’re not a christian

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to “I love it when christians call others hypocrites”

          but you like xmas music, and Neil who also isn’t a christian is a hypocrite for liking some of it.

          Would a follower of the prophet be a hypocrite if they liked it. Is it theism that unites you?

          Would being a christian and not liking make someone a hyprocrite, or perhaps a heretic.

          Do you confuse yourself on a regular basis as well?

          As for the rest of that self justifying post rationalising drivel, I will say only this another great talent also divinely inspired.

          I give you, Torquemada.

          Drum roll, etc.

        • #2871371

          I think you’re missing the point

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to “I love it when christians call others hypocrites”

          [i]So people who enjoy Christmas music must accept that it has been created by people who do believe in the Christian god.[/i]

          What inspired them to write the music is immaterial to me if I enjoy the music. If I find the music beautiful, I don’t give a flip about the beliefs of the person who created it and how those beliefs influenced the creation. I simply enjoy the music for its own sake.

          The same applies to paintings, drawings, carvings, etchings, statuary, buildings, the Grand Canyon, Niagara Falls, the Matterhorn, the Serengeti and all the rest. You can speculate all you wish about how and why it came to be, and who or what might have had a hand in, but I’m not going to worry about that. I’m simply going to enjoy its beauty without worrying about the why.

      • #2871606

        How about infidels?

        by ansugisalas ·

        In reply to Thanks Max, and the others who have posted videos

        Ain’t shintoists allowed in, either?

        And heretics? Say, that protestants wouldn’t be allowed to dig the work of catholic composers?

        Where do you draw the line?

        • #2871594

          It’s where you just stepped over

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to How about infidels?

          It separates the believers, the soon to be quite dead, and soon to be lit pyres from the people they haven’t caught yet..

          Step back quick….

        • #2871396

          Damn…

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to It’s where you just stepped over

          I went and got myself into trouble… again?!?

          Where’d I put that anti-inquisitor aerosol?

        • #2871383

          Just throw a

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Damn…

          choir boy at them that will distract them long enough to shoot the buggers.
          Not pc on so many levels Tony, oops….

        • #2871319

          Caught

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to Just throw a

          with their pants down, they’ll be ]:)

      • #2871393

        Jules, that’s so outrageous it’s hard to believe you said it.

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Thanks Max, and the others who have posted videos

        [i]”I would consider it hypocritical for an atheist to declare a liking for this kind of music and at the same time deny the existence of God. Without the religion of Christianity this music would never have been composed in the first place.[/i]

        Okay that’s two parts really, firstly,
        [i]”I would consider it hypocritical for an atheist to declare a liking for this kind of music and at the same time deny the existence of God. [/i]

        Handel’s Messiah is an amazing composition, my ex played it at several concerts while we were together and I enjoyed them immensely, as did several thousand others in attenance.

        I wouldn’t suggest that others, who were not religiously bound, were aethiests or hypocrites for attending and enjoying such fantastic music played by such professional and talented musicians; such a comment would be absolute absurdity, even for me!

        [i]Without the religion of Christianity this music would never have been composed in the first place.[/i]

        Without the drums declaring war on a neighbouring tribe, percussion in such pieces would not exist either. The motivation for such composition is irrelevant to most, even if it holds religious meaning for many also; though I tend to feel you’d find yourself alone with such comments even amongst the Christian community.

        Well composed pieces are a culmination of feeling, it makes one happy, sad, angry, relaxed and any other number feelings. the prsonl motivation to write music is not important really, the music effects every listener in a different way and holds different meaning to them also.

        Regardless of lyrics, music does not segregate people, it is the one form of communication that remains constant globally and without race, religion imposed.

        CERTAINLY there are many hymns that would contain lyrics of a specifically religious nature, however the music that accompanies it is not religious at all, if it has that meaning for youm, you need to understand that music’s ‘meaning’ changes with the listener.

        I listen to all music, well not country anymore, and I see value in the MUSIC itself, tones that are ever changing though almost predictable and offering an element of surprise when they change in direction, it rises and falls, softens and hardens. I choose music to listen to that suits my current mood or even to direct my chosen mood, sounds that I find pleasant to listen to at any given time. I used to love Christmas carols and the fun of singing them with my friends and peers annually and getting into the spirit of Christmas, which holds a different meaning ‘spirit’ for all involved, religious or not. Even within the followers of Christianity, they all have different ideas of what THEIR religion means to THEM. Some have much more open and spiritual views of Christianity, others adhere to teh old testament this makes neither a hypocrite though. Singing carols does not mean I practice “Christianity” (in a traditional sense, if there even is such a thing), nor does NOT enjoying carols make me an hypocrite.

        The one thing I love most about music is that it does not discern between race colour or religion. Music from around teh globe all sounds very different and unique, however it is based on the same principles, regardless of region.

        To quote Sharespeare, [i][b]”If music be the food of love, play on.”[/i][/b]

        • #3039071

          Call it a knee-jerk reaction if you like ….

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to Jules, that’s so outrageous it’s hard to believe you said it.

          but it came because several times in the past Neil has said the same thing: “Julian you’re being an arse again” whenever he disagrees with or doesn’t approve of my opinion.

          It would not have occurred to me to make such a reply if I wasn’t tired of getting this same remark from Neil.

          I am also tired of him taking every opportunity to remind us he is an atheist. Who cares? I certainly don’t.

          And for the record, as I have said elsewhere, I am not, never have been and hopefully never will be a Christian.

        • #3039056

          If you want to post about me

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Call it a knee-jerk reaction if you like ….

          At least have the common decency to post TO me.

        • #3039040

          Why, then, did you even post?

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to Call it a knee-jerk reaction if you like ….

          [i]I am also tired of him taking every opportunity to remind us he is an atheist. Who cares? I certainly don’t.[/i]

          Your very first post in this discussion, Thanks Max, and the others who have posted videos, contains the “hypocrite” statement.

          [u]You[/u] are the one who fired the first shot in this exchange; at what point prior to that was anybody in your face? And now you want to be a WATB about it?

          I’m starting to agree with neil…

        • #3039062

          On reflection, by the same yardstick,

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to Jules, that’s so outrageous it’s hard to believe you said it.

          I could be called a partial hypocrite myself. I was forgetting how far, over the years, I have drifted away from mainstream Christian doctrine.

          While I have never considered myself a Christian in the sense of accepting that Christ died for my sins, I did accept the general package.

          I do believe Jesus was a messiah of some kind — undoubtedly the most significant since Gautama Buddha sat under the bodhi tree.

          However as I was listening to the Hallelujah Chorus last night, I realized I was quite skeptical about certain claims of Christianity.

        • #3039060

          Percussion

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to Jules, that’s so outrageous it’s hard to believe you said it.

          is not a major element in Western music and I am not sure that it is included in liturgical music at all.

          Western music has evolved because of Christianity. Even jazz was a spin-off from negro spirituals.

          I don’t need to tell you the stages in the evolution of Western classical music. No Christianity and we would still be singing folk songs.

        • #3039055

          That’s rather a sweeping statement

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Percussion

          and a perfect example of why I find you a pain in these discussions.

          Put simply, had there been no Christianity, we have absolutely NO IDEA how the world would be different to what we have today with regards to music or anything else. The key word is “different”. No implication on MY part as to whether the world – of music or anything else – would be better or worse without religion. Still, it’s the 30th anniversary of the murder of John Lennon so I can “Imagine”.

          Think outside your little box. Even the word “music” is of Greek origins and pre-dates Christianity.

        • #3039041

          Your ignorance is astounding

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Percussion

          And that is from a person who conducted church choirs for years. Me.

          Percussion is not a major element of Western Music? Balderdash. Shear ignorance. Almost every church I’ve ever been to has a percussion instrument that gets used frequently. Its called a PIANO. And even before the piano became popular, tambourines and other drums were used in carolling.

          And while any musicologist would agree that Western music has been heavily influenced by the developments of church music, that does mean that there were no other forms of western music, opera, folk music, work songs all of which contributed to what we have today.

          For all your hanging around Christians and other spiritual people you haven’t learned humuility.

    • #2864902

      It’s a trend

      by tony hopkinson ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      Christians hijacked multiple solstice celebrations.

      Commercialism hijacked christmas.

      Now the PC boys have picked it out as a suitable vehicle for their dogmatic unreasoning stink.

    • #2864892

      Merry Christmas to all……

      by peconet tietokoneet ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      I do not deny anyone having their own faiths, BUT leave Christmas alone to people who enjoy it. This is a Christian way of life so lets us celebrate this Christmas and leave the Bureaucrats/political correctness (stupid people) in the COLD where they belong.
      Christmas is a happy time for many so why do these political correctness (stupid people) want to destroy it?
      Merry Christmas:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y5GtaTrPHM

      • #2871649

        For the same reasons

        by tony hopkinson ·

        In reply to Merry Christmas to all……

        early christians destroyed other celebrations of the solstice.

        To supplant, to subvert, to utilise in the propagation of their own belief system.

        You guys set the precedent, no point in crying about it now, never listened to the Druids and the Mithraists amongst others did you?

        Come to think of it the followers of those two belief systems weren’t exactly reticent about supressing opposition with pointy implements either. Pehaps Ug the caveman’s belief that the big burny thing in the sky was important is the answer to all your woes.

        • #2871584

          Anyone see “Rare Exports”?

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to For the same reasons

          It’s a brand-spanking-new finnish action movie about the capture and taming of wild santas, for export and exploitation for commercial purposes…

        • #2871542

          No.

          by seanferd ·

          In reply to Anyone see “Rare Exports”?

          But I want to see it, now.

          In fact, make it a double feature:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampo_(film)

        • #2871516

          Ok, so –

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to No.

          How does one put html codes for parantheses into links again?
          en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampo_&40;film&41;

          Beats me…

        • #2871511

          Probably

          by seanferd ·

          In reply to Ok, so –

          the same way you have done it before.

          It’s amazing what I’ll take the time to do, and what I don’t bother with. Sometimes it seems there is no rationale or pattern, but in this case, I’d say it is because this link-trashing behavior was the final straw.

          And god forbid you go and edit a post in which you have had to insert HTML entities.

      • #2871641

        Acknowledge all, including Christians

        by jamesrl ·

        In reply to Merry Christmas to all……

        I don’t have any problem with Merry Christmas, OR Happy Holidays, or Happy Hannukah, or Diwali, or whatever.

        To be honest I am more offended by the blatant commericial exploitation of the holiday than someone saying Happy Holidays.

        The gifts of the Three Wise Men only appears in one of the four gospels. Yet if you gage by popular culture, Christmas is more about the orgy of gift buying than the birth of the messiah.

        If you ask me, the ugly commericialism is much more likely to destroy Christmas than those who wish to acknowledge and celebrate other religions holidays, which have been around for centuries (well perhaps except Kwanzaa).

    • #2871628

      Merry Christmas to you too, Max

      by jellimonsta ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      That goes for everyone else too. 🙂
      BTW, that IS a great video. 😀

    • #2871560

      Gaudete – Just enjoy

      by neilb@uk ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      Well, I was at a concert on this tour and, you know, I didn’t boo! Ah, what a hypocrite! 😀

      Neil 🙂

      The original recorded version. Sh:t! Was it THAT long ago! Ah, man. Where have the years gone? But I’ve loved these guys since the 70’s and, damn, but we’re ALL looking old!

      Maddy is still keeping it together, though, even though she’s over 60! 😀

      • #2871559

        Oh, I like that.

        by boxfiddler ·

        In reply to Gaudete – Just enjoy

        Now, let me spend a few hours hunting up more of their stuff. I’ve just been introduced. 😀

        Thank you!

        • #2871557

          There is a lot

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Oh, I like that.

          If you want some traditional English, Google Tim Hart and Maddy Prior. They later joined/formed the group Steeleye Span, a bit more “electric” who I’ve been a fan of for over thirty years.

          There’s a couple more of Maddy’s, below. Although I prefer her in Steeleye Span

          Merry Christmas, again.

          😀

        • #2871506

          Here’s one I had forgotten

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Oh, I like that.

          This is another Christmassy one.

          I’d post some of my favourite non-Christmas Steeleye Span but you’ll find your own favourites easily enough, I’m sure.

          🙂

    • #2871558

      Oh, go on. Now I’m in the mood

      by neilb@uk ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      A bit of traditional Olde english

      🙂

      • #2871555

        More Christmas Maddy

        by neilb@uk ·

        In reply to Oh, go on. Now I’m in the mood

        Not sure about the bassoon, though! I prefer Steeleye Span – but Maddy can sing no wrong!

        😀

    • #2871554

      Thanks for the link.

      by jamesrl ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      I went through the link, I knew it was a Canadian mall by a few visual clues.

      Following through, I discovered it was a choir not far from here – near Niagara falls, and the conductor is one I’ve sung with in workshops.

    • #2871536

      Merry Christmas, Max

      by av . ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      I’m glad I work for a place that still has a Christmas party. They might have a Menorah lighted during Hanukkah in the reception area, but the party is a full-blown, Secret Santa, Christmas party.

      The person who generated the invitation you received was an idiot. What about Christmas? Shhh, don’t say the word?!? Where is that idiot video when you need it.

      Merry Christmas, as it was and always will be, to me.

      AV

    • #2871521

      LOL. Oh so true, Max!

      by oz_media ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      As always, include everyone but don’t expect everyone to include you. It’s the same with race and even language (for Canadians/pour Canadienes).

      Obviously the poor design, perhaps the oppostie of ignorance though and instead more of an issue of over awareness or trying too hard to be PC.

    • #2871504

      Message has been deleted.

      by beckyjjackso ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

    • #2871492

      Well Said

      by jutpro ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      Thank you for this. You spoke truth.
      I wish you and family a very Merry Christmas

    • #2871436

      Merry Christmas Max – and everyone

      by eyesak ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      There is an open full force attempt to remove Christians rights.
      I am against it, this is another example among many. I E-Mail Stores that I will not shop there if they do not include Christmas in their adverts. It is already commercialized – that cannot be stopped and is good for the economy. A time when people have an excuse to perform random acts of kindness.
      Whatever your religion, you can wish me happy Hanukkah, it will not deeply offend me.
      I will not try to have it removed.
      This is discrimination plain and simple.

      Thanks again Max.
      Merry Christmas

    • #2871424

      Merry Christmas Max….

      by darryl~ ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      My wife and I aren’t the most upstanding “church goers” in Truro but at least we know not to take the whole “political correct” thing too far when it involves religion.

      Sometimes I differ in opinion with you but seldom comment on your posts as things can become very heated at times.

      I think you nailed this one 100% correct.

      A couple of years ago there was quite a debate between Nova Scotia and Boston. Every Christmas a giant White Spruce is sent from Nova Scotia to the city of Boston as a “thank you” for their relief assistance after the Halifax Explosion December 6, 1917 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halifax_Explosion). It’s always a big deal here and is a great honor to have the tree selected come from one’s own property….the Boston puts up the tree in the city square and decorates it.

      A couple years ago Boston was going to call it a “Holiday Tree”….oh my….some of the things being said by people from my home province made me a little embarrassed to be a Nova Scotian….the thing was called a Christmas Tree for 90 years & was totally accepted as such…..why change it now?

      Do ya know what I mean? It’s just silly.

      • #2871395

        Weren’t

        by ansugisalas ·

        In reply to Merry Christmas Max….

        you going to BUY the church? Don’t tell me the Treasurer failed to deliver the tithes collected from the TR faithful (with an iron fist, too)?!? Surely not again?!? ]:)

        • #2871387

          Well…..

          by darryl~ ·

          In reply to Weren’t

          it’s still for sale….even dropped the price….”The Church of Scum”….I even went and took a look at it…the problem is the land….it’s very close to the road (basically just has a parking lot for a front yard)….there’s a little “green space” on the sides (about 20 feet per side) and the back is straight down a steep bank to a river. It’s just not a good place for a 6 yr old little girl.

          They’ve been selling a lot of churches in Nova Scotia over the past few years….the older “churc h goers” have been dieing off and many churches have been idle….some have even been carefully taken down & assembled down in the USA (we have some very old “loyalist” era churches).

          It’s really too bad….I’d love to buy one.

          If the church our little one was christened in ever goes up for sale….well…I’ll just have to buy that one….. http://www.colchester.ca/north-colchester (Holy Trinity Anglican Church) which is kinda funny because neither Purple or I are Anglican – it was my grandmother’s church 😉

        • #2871321

          Perfect

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to Well…..

          the river bank… for getting rid of corpses, if the current is strong enough.

          To live in, no, that’s not ideal 🙂

    • #2871389

      Hijacked, has it?

      by nexs ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      I tend to agree with you on this one Maxwell. But I don’t think that is is localized to just christmas.

      Political correctness has been taken many steps too far. Especially when things like “Baa Baa Black Sheep” get changed. I recently found out that it’s wrong to call those long, black boards which you use chalk on to draw/write, a ‘Blackboard’. Apparently it is offensive and racist.

      Get farked! It’s only racist if you want it to be. We called it a Blackboard because the board was black, not because the Australian natives have darker skin than us.

      Political correctness can take a long walk of a short pier.

      • #2871386

        Very much agree with you – NT

        by darryl~ ·

        In reply to Hijacked, has it?

        😉

      • #2871385

        The racism is actually in the act of being politically correct

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Hijacked, has it?

        Assuming origin, purely based on skin tone, is racism in action.

        If you are blonde haired and blue eyed, are you deemed Arayan-American?

        My close friend is black, not African American, he’s black. He wasn’t born in Africa but Alabama. His skin is not actually BLACK (very close, he’s really dark skinned) but he’s offended by the term African American.

        The people that choose to call him African-American are not being any less racist at all, than those who say black.

        Since when is segregating someone based on distant ancestoral origin, any better than based on the colour of his skin?

        We don’t call others Swedish-American, Anglo-American, Russian-American etc. We refer to them generally as WHITE or even worse, American. But the people that actually ARE from North America are indigenous-American?

        F**k off to polticial correctness already, lets all just be humans for once and describe what we see, not what we think people feel.

        Since when was it deemed more poltically correct to refer to you by a place you never came from, based on your skin tone, rather than referring to you based on the difference of your skin tone.

        You can’t see someone and KNOW they came from Africa, it is simply a blatantly racist assumption based purely on skin colour. You CAN see someone and describe them by their unique skin tone rather accurately though, how is the latter deemed racist?

        Three whire guys and a black guy in a room.

        If you wish to note something the black guy said, it’s not offensive to say he was the black guy in the room. If you said ‘the white guy’ people might need further clarification, ‘the white guy with the blue shirt.’

        If there are three black guys and a white guy in a room, same thing applies.

        It’s NOT racist, assuming origin based on skin tone is though.

        • #2871377

          Although

          by nexs ·

          In reply to The racism is actually in the act of being politically correct

          I see your point, and agree mostly, I don’t agree with the term African-American (or in my case Indigenous-Australian) as a racist remark. In fact, it would be spoken as a way of trying to be polite.
          I’m sure that any sensible person would appreciate the effort and thought put into it, rather than assuming racism.

          Another point in that matter would be that many non-Caucasian (and the Caucasian for that matter) people would be proud of their heritage and culture (ie: the African-American). So I suppose that it would depend entirely on the individual.

        • #2871356

          trying to be polite

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Although

          If you are American, born in America and secon or third generation American, then being called “Afircan American is not polite at all. Being deemed AMERICAN is far more respectful. Now there’s the Californian guy with the blonde hair, the olive skinned guy from Idaho and the black guy from Alabama. All are Americans, and using colour is simply descriptive, it’s not a relation of dissention at all.

          The whole PC thing is ridiculous, it only serves the conscience of those who feel being “politically correct” is wothwhile.

          If I want to call my friend something derogatory, I wouldn’t be calling him black, there are far more derogatory terms to make such a point. Why would calling him black be derogatory or even seen as offensive? Because politically correct society has deemed it so, not him.

        • #2871354

          Hey, Oz

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to trying to be polite

          Merry Christmas!

        • #2871340

          Ho Ho Bloody Ho

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Hey, Oz

          “Ho Ho F’ing Ho
          What a croc of sh*t,”

          Honestly Santee, you strike ma as a guy that would really enjoy Kevin Blooy Wilson (The Ozzie Yobbo).

          If you don’t already own all his music, you need to familiarize yourself with the following songs,

          Santa Claus (one of my fav KBW songs! I’m not sure if I care for the vieo with it though)
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEe55NxFSSU

          Ho Ho F***ing Ho
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhF47j2VK6M

          Dicktaphone
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M01Nn_Jo_m4&feature=related

          (And one we can ALL relate to)
          Absolute c__t of a day:
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaUfBSFq45M&feature=related

          Warning: not for little boys and girls, old anyone else with no sense of ha ha.

        • #2871344

          Yeah.

          by seanferd ·

          In reply to trying to be polite

          generally, it seems best to refer to any specific culture, group, ethnicity, or individual in the manner that he, she, or they have chosen. Sometimes that can be difficult, because it varies. Learning what is expected shows politeness.

        • #2871339

          Not tip toeing around it

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Yeah.

          I find the people who tiptoe around it and come up with their own silly terms are actually the most offensive. If there’s no difference and we are all equal, why treat anyone with ‘special consideration’ pointing out the fact they are different. Call it as you see it, tone of voice and intent behind a comment means a lot more than the words used.

        • #2871333

          Pointing out.

          by seanferd ·

          In reply to Not tip toeing around it

          That is the whole thing.

          It’s those occasions when, e.g., “race” (and I use the term lightly) is pointed out when there is no need.

        • #2871320

          It’s that

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to Not tip toeing around it

          they obviously think there’s something so wrong with the other person that they *musn’t* speak of it.
          Basil: “Don’t mention the war!”

          Trying to tip-toe around a great imaginary big (african) elephant in the room is the problem.

        • #2857795

          How precious!

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Not tip toeing around it

          Anyone quoting Fawlty is alright in my books!

        • #2857754

          Heh.

          by seanferd ·

          In reply to Not tip toeing around it

          “Don’t mind Manuel, he’s from Barcelona.”

        • #2857611

          Heh!

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to Not tip toeing around it

          It was an undeniable association.
          It sums up the near-psychotic short-circuited state of mind that must precede the use of that kind of PC labelling.
          Exactly like old Basil… and I don’t mean the hRRamster.

        • #2857750

          Yup

          by nexs ·

          In reply to Yeah.

          But some people don’t appreciate the attempt and jump straight into defensiveness.
          Maybe some people just want personal conflict.

        • #2857705

          Of course.

          by seanferd ·

          In reply to Yup

          It’s part of the Human Condition, at least for some people.

          Heck, some people are offended simply because another group exists at all. (But they act “defensive”.) :0

        • #2871302

          It greatly offends some of my friends

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to trying to be polite

          I have a few friends who were born in the Caribean, in British colonies like Jamaica, Barbados and Trinidad. They came to Canada instead of the US because they wanted to keep some connecting to the British Commonwealth. They insist that their skin colour is black, but they are neither African nor American. They are proudly Canadian. They do feel ties to the place where they were born culturally, but none to Africa.

        • #2857747

          In my case

          by nexs ·

          In reply to It greatly offends some of my friends

          I was born in Australia. My mother was born in middle England. My grandmother still has not become a legal Australian citizen, and has been in Australia for around 40 years but still barracks for the Australian Test team in The Ashes. She regards herself Australian.

          But her accent is still thick British. Though not abusively Australian Patriotic.

        • #2857753

          Well that’s the kind

          by nexs ·

          In reply to trying to be polite

          Of attitude that pisses me off. If you make an effort to do the right thing and this particular breed of person (whether they are black, white, olive, multicoloured) will take anything you say to be offensive, and make a big deal of it, it just really grinds my gears, so to speak.

          If I were to call someone ‘African American’ and they correct me politely by saying ‘Actually, I was born in Alabama’, then I’d be happy to continue a polite conversation with them.
          But should they decide that they were born in America and I was being racist, and a hoo-har starts, then I would definitely afford no more time to this person.

          But you are absolutely right regarding derogatory remarks. There is far worse things you could say to someone than describing the colour of their skin.

        • #2857701

          He doesn’t have attitude and make a big deal about it

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Well that’s the kind

          But we have discussed it several times, usually because it comes up here and I point out some of the comments to him. But he knows all about it, obviously as he is from the US and grew up in a predominantly black neighbourhood.

          It’s funny sometimes when we are in public, he’ll pass another black guy and give him a nod of recognition. THis usually leaves the other guy woindering if he knows him from somewhere; there just isn’t the same kind of issue with it here. Nobody gives a crap because our whole city is multicultural of every race and colour you can imagine. In fact, Asians (Chinese, Japanes etc.) are a majority now in Richmond.

          I know racism still exists with many people here and everywhere, but I’ve noticed more mixed race groups of people in public here than south of the border.

        • #3038975

          I’m relieved

          by nexs ·

          In reply to He doesn’t have attitude and make a big deal about it

          And we can only hope that racism can be defeated, or at least down to a manageable level.

          I’ve always thought of Melbourne as the multicultural capital of the world. In fact, as kids, a friend and I would travel to Melbourne and play ‘Spot The Aussie’. We’d lose, of course.
          But despite that, and I say this purely as information, I have met only a handful of Aborigines who place themselves above the racism.
          Now I know that there’s more out there, and I’d love to meet them, I just haven’t met many.

        • #2871353

          I don’t understand

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to Although

          how devisive walks hand-in-hand with polite. I don’t get how polite successfully sets itself against itself.

        • #2857751

          It’s because

          by nexs ·

          In reply to I don’t understand

          Kind hearts who mean well are the best candidates for it.

    • #2871384

      Hijacking a Hijecked Holiday

      by craturus ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      So…your complaining that Christmas is being taken over, yes? I would quote “What was once an almost exclusive Christian day of celebration…” This is very clearly untrue, this holiday was first celebrated as the winter solstice, before Christians usurped it. So, your premise for this point is incorrect.
      Perhaps, the person(s) sending the card choose not to include this Christan holiday because they do not agree with the underlay principle of greed (clearly unchristian) the it now has; but than again, maybe they recognize the many evils of this church and choose not to acknowledge its holiday.

      • #2871366

        If

        by boxfiddler ·

        In reply to Hijacking a Hijecked Holiday

        they’re not going to acknowledge ‘this holiday’, they shouldn’t shop for, banquet for, vacation over ‘this holiday’.

        On the other hand, the usurping of the solstice has certainly come back to haunt the world. I find that amusing.

        I wouldn’t lay the usurping of the Winter Solstice at the feet of ‘all’ Christianity. That was a Catholic thing.

        • #2871365

          All this time

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to If

          I thought it was the Lutherans in Lake Wobegon.

          ______

          no, “e”.

        • #2871326

          As embarrassing as it, Roman Catholicism

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to If

          is the root form of christianity, certainly in the organised church sense. So as christians I’m afraid you maintained the original theft and denying that it has anything to with you is reminiscent of hand washing…..

          If it’s a real concern, pehaps the you should set up the sect of Boxfiddler and celebrate the birth of Christ on a less ‘erm convenient day. 😀

          In these PC days you could probably get your holiday moved and be available for work during the solstice when all those thieves and pagans normally have time off.

        • #2857773

          Roman?

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to As embarrassing as it, Roman Catholicism

          Not, Byzantine?

          Christmas should probably be in July.
          That, at least here, is traditionally a “slow month” in agriculture, and so, much more like to be chosen for a great big tally.
          And it’s warm, so sheperds are out in the pastures at night.

          And of course, the damning evidence: July? = “Yule, aye” :p

        • #2857729

          Church of Boxy.

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to As embarrassing as it, Roman Catholicism

          Has a ring to it… :^0

          I’m afraid I’m not up to that level of accountability. Hell, I couldn’t even climb the ladder of rank in the Church of Scum. :0

          Personally, I don’t care where the holiday originated, or who and how many ‘hijacked’ it from whom. I celebrate a spiritual holiday because that’s what I understand it to be. I take offense at the consumerizing of it, but I take offense at the consumerization of life in general.

          I delineate between Catholic and most other Christian denominations because the Catholic Church is in occasional, flagrant violation of Biblical teaching.

          I’m nitpicky that way. 😉
          I like to stir a little, too.

        • #2857716

          But it’s THEIR Bible!

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to Church of Boxy.

          The Bible as we know it today was formalized by the Church in 382 CE. As many different translations as there are today, virtually every one of those contains the same books as the Vulgate, the original Latin Bible. http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/index.htm

          And you know as well as I do that Biblical “teaching” is often entirely dependent on who is reading the Bible at the time.

        • #2857714

          I’m judging

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to But it’s THEIR Bible!

          that in accordance with what I read in the Bible. Not what ANY church reads in the Bible.

          Which is quite to your point. 😉

        • #2857594

          That’s the spirit…

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to I’m judging

        • #2857544

          No, Ansu, we can’t embed images

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to I’m judging

          They took that away from us with the last site “upgrade”.

        • #2871307

          So, all other Christian sects are just

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to If

          “in posession of stolen holidays”. If you give it back then you won’t be prosecuted.

          Then we could ALL celebrate Dies Natalis Solis Invicti – Christians, too – and Max wouldn’t be able to start up a thread complaining of hijacking.

          🙂

          Although, thinking about it , Dies Natalis Solis Invicti doesn’t work in the Southern Hemisphere but as all of the Aussies and Kiwis are partying on the beach at that time of year, they wouldn’t even notice.

          Woddayasay, Bruce? They’ve stopped the Chrissie hols? That’ll piss of the ankle-biters.

          No worries. Chuck us another tinny.

          (With reference to our Australian friends, with England one up in the current Ashes Series, I have this to say, “HA HA HA HA HA!”)

        • #2857772

          Older than that… like in WAY

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to So, all other Christian sects are just

          Osiris, too, a mere pup.

          The god that dies and comes back. Very vhery vherie oulde.

        • #2857734

          Oh, no problem. Not my point

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Older than that… like in WAY

          The 25th December is the first day that the Sun can be seen to be moving South following the Winter solstice, without the aid of scientific instruments. It’s been a Significant Day since Man could reason and remember.

          Generally I find that most people miss just how awesome the 25th December is!

          I just quoted the Latin as it pre-dated the Christian. Unlike the followers of JC, the Romans didn’t usurp the festival, just gave it a Latin name and accepted it.

          🙂

        • #2857614

          Is it fixed?

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to Oh, no problem. Not my point

          I thought it followed the solstice, i.e. something like dec. 21 +/-3days…

        • #2857568

          I uderstood that’s why the festival is December 25th

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Is it fixed?

          The solstice can vary from the 21st into the 22nd. If you have a fixed festival then you’d set three or four days after the solstice. Might well have originally been the equivalent of the 24th. Oi! Stonehenge is reading a day fast again!

          On the few days either side of the Summer of Winter solstices, the day length only changes by a few seconds per day. The Sun’s altitude (in London, anyway) doesn’t change measurably between the 19th and the 24th.

        • #2857479

          Wait a minute

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to Oh, no problem. Not my point

          [i]The 25th December is the first day that the Sun can be seen to be moving South following the Winter solstice, without the aid of scientific instruments. [/i]

          Shouldn’t that read “The 25th December is the first day that the Sun can be seen to be moving [b]North[/b] following the Winter solstice, without the aid of scientific instruments.”?

        • #2857461

          Depends, I guess…

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to Wait a minute

          Up here we can’t see it moving south, because it disappears from sight as soon as it does :p

        • #3039166

          Sunset and sunrise

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Wait a minute

          move north. Yep, got my directions mixed up because I was too busy trying take the mick out of the Aussies and wasn’t concentrating got a bit confused.

          I will go away and hide in a corner and cry myself to sleep…

          :_|

      • #2857776

        Like I said

        by ansugisalas ·

        In reply to Hijacking a Hijecked Holiday

        Good yule to all… may your gravy be sweet, your honey-mead savoury, and good plunder for the new year!

        • #2857607

          Huh

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Like I said

          Thanks, but I like my gravy savoury and my honey mead sweet.Of course I don’t get my mead very often, only when I’m good.

          As for plunder, I don’t work on wall street. Have you seen that Monty Python movie?
          http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0215685/

        • #3039163

          Chartered accountants…

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to Huh

          Fear and Mayhem on Wall Street…

    • #2857733

      Christmas celebrates the birth of Christ.

      by drwiremore ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      Christmas celebrates the birth of Christ.

      To some this is a Christmas, and to others either a holiday or simply December. However, we all celebrate this time of year, in some way, with a holiday spirit. Therefore: I extend to you my Christmas & Holiday wish: good will to all and peace on earth.

      Merry Christmas
      Happy New Year
      Happy Hanukkah
      Happy Kwanzaa
      Happy Earth

      Peace and Goodwill to all … to you, your family and your friends this Christmas – Holiday – December season.. ~dw

      • #2857699

        What’s with that?

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Christmas celebrates the birth of Christ.

        I don’t celebrate my birthday on July 13 or some other day just because I think it’s more significant; like celebrating my birthday on the first day of spring break or something.

        Wasn’t Jesus supposed to be born in the ‘month’ of Tishri, somewhere between what we now call September and October? So why do we have to celebrate HIS birthday on Christmas?

        Oh well, a Festivus for the rest of us. 😀

        Just teasing, Happy Ho-Ho to you too. 😉

      • #2867008

        If so, someone got the date way wrong. [eom]

        by deepsand ·

        In reply to Christmas celebrates the birth of Christ.

        .

    • #2857599

      Holiday party, Christmas party..

      by maecuff ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      I don’t care what they are called. I really don’t care.

      I also have no qualms about wishing people a Merry Christmas.

      I don’t know why people get their panties in a bunch over Christmas. Because December 25th is Christmas. It just is. That doesn’t take away from any other celebrations.

      Either way, I don’t get offended by the whole ‘holiday’ thing versus ‘Christmas’.

      As long as I get something sparkly and my friends and family are happy and healthy..that’s good enough for me.

    • #3039039

      Larry’s Politically Correct Christmas

      by maxwell edison ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

    • #3039038

      Lawyer’s version of “Night Before Christmas”

      by puppybreath ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      T’was the nocturnal segment of the diurnal period preceding the annual Yuletide celebration, and throughout our place of residence, kinetic energy was not in evidence among the possessors of this potential, including that species of domestic rodent known as Mus Musculus.

      Hosiery was meticulously suspended from the forward edge of the wood burning caloric apparatus, pursuant to our anticipatory pleasure regarding an imminent visitation from an eccentric philanthropist among whose folkloric appellations is the honorific St. Nicholas.

      The prepubescent siblings, comfortably ensconced in their respective accommodations of repose, were experiencing subconscious visual hallucinations of variegated fruit confections moving rhythmically through their cerebrums.

      My conjugal partner and I, attired in our nocturnal head coverings, were about to take slumberous advantage of the hibernal darkness, when upon the arenaceous exterior portion of the grounds there ascended such a cacophony of dissonance, that I felt compelled to arise with alacrity from my place of repose for the purpose of ascertaining the precise source thereof.

      Hastening to the casement, I forthwith opened the barriers sealing this fenestration, noting thereupon that the lunar brilliance without, reflected as it was on the surface of a recent crystalline precipitation, might be said to rival that of the solar meridian itself — thus permitting my incredulous optical sensory organs to behold a miniature airborne runnered conveyance drawn by eight diminutive specimens of the genus Rangifer, piloted by a minuscule, aged chauffeur so ebullient and nimble it became instantly apparent to me that he was our anticipated caller.

      With his ungulate motive power traveling at what may possibly have been more vertiginous velocity than patriotic acclaim predicates, he vociferated loudly, expelled breath musically through contracted labia, and addressed each of the octet by his or her respective cognomen — “On Dasher, on Prancer…..” et al. — guiding them to the uppermost exterior level of our abode, through which structure I could readily distinguish the concatenations of each of the 32 cloven pedal extremities.

      As I retracted my cranium from its erstwhile location, and was performing a 180 degree pivot, our distinguished visitant achieved, with utmost celerity and via a downward leap, entry by way of the smoke passage.

      He was clad entirely in animal pelts soiled by the ebony residue from oxidations of carboniferous fuels, which had accumulated on the walls of said pathway. His resemblance to a street vendor I attributed largely to the plethora of assorted playthings, which he bore dorsally in a commodious cloth receptacle.

      His visual input centers were scintillating with the reflected luminosity, while his submaxillary indentations gave every evidence of engaging amiability. The capillaries of his malar regions and nasal appurtenance were engorged with blood which suffused the subcutaneous layers, the former approximating the coloration of albino’s floral emblem, the latter that of the Prunus Avium, or sweet cherry. His amusing sub- and supra- labials resembled nothing so much as a loop knot, and their ambient hirsute facial adornment appeared like small tabular, and columnar crystals of frozen water.

      Clenched firmly between his incisors was a smoking piece whose gray fumes, forming a tenuous ellipse about his occiput, were suggestive of a decorative seasonal circlet of holly. His visage was wider than it was high, and when he waxed audibly mirthful, his corpulent abdominal region undulated in the manner of impected fruit syrup in a hemispherical container.

      He was, in short, neither more nor less than an obese, jocund, multigeniarian gnome, the optical perception of whom rendered me visibly frolicsome despite every effort to refrain from so being. By swiftly lowering, then elevating one eyelid and rotating his cranium slightly to one side, he indicated that trepidation on my part was groundless.

      Without utterance and with dispatch, he commenced filling the aforementioned hosiery from that dorsally transported woven container. Upon completion of this task, he executed an about-face, placed a single manual digit in lateral juxtaposition to his olfactory organ, inclined his cranium forward in a gesture of leave-taking, and forthwith effected his egress by renegotiating(in reverse) the smoke passage.

      He then propelled himself in a short vector onto his conveyance, directed a musical expulsion of air through his contracted oral sphincter to the antlered quadrupeds of burden, and proceeded to soar aloft in a movement heretofore observable chiefly among the seed bearing portions of a common weed.

      But I overheard his vocalization beyond the limits of visibility: “Ecstatic Yuletide to the planetary constituency, and to the selfsame assemblage, my sincerest wishes for a salubrious, beneficial, and gratifying, pleasurable period between sunset and the dawn.!”

      • #3039036

        Al Bundy’s version

        by netman1958 ·

        In reply to Lawyer’s version of “Night Before Christmas”

        ‘Twas the night before Christmas,
        And all through the house,
        No food was a-stirrin’,
        Not even a mouse.

        Stockings were hung round
        Dad’s nick like a tie,
        Along with a note that said,
        “Presents or die.”

        Children were plotting
        All night in their beds,
        While the wife’s constant whining
        Was splitting his head.

        But daddy had money
        This year in the bank,
        Then they closed up early,
        And now dad’s in a tank.

        All of a sudden,
        Santa appeared,
        A sneer on his face,
        Booze in his beard.

        “Santa,” I said,
        As he laughed merrily,
        “You do so much for others,
        Do something for me.”

        “Bundy,” he said,
        “You only sell shoes,
        Your son is a sneak thief,
        Your daughter’s a flooze.”

        “Ho ho,” Santa said,
        “Should I mention your wife?
        Her hair’s like an A-bomb,
        Her nails like a knife.”

        He climbs up the chimney,
        That fat piece of dung,
        He mooned me two times,
        He stuck out his tongue.

        I heard him exclaim,
        As he broke wind with glee,
        “You’re married with children,
        You’ll never be free.”

      • #3039033

        That’s the government contractor’s version

        by nicknielsen ·

        In reply to Lawyer’s version of “Night Before Christmas”

        This is the lawyer’s version:

        The Night Before Christmas…Legally Speaking

        Whereas, on or about the night prior to Christmas, there did occur at a certain improved piece of real property (hereinafter “the House”) a general lack of stirring by all creatures therein, including, but not limited to a mouse.

        A variety of foot apparel, e.g., stocking, socks, etc., had been affixed by and around the chimney in said House in the hope and/or belief that St. Nick AKA/St. Nicholas AKA/Santa Claus (hereinafter “Claus”) would arrive at sometime thereafter.

        The minor residents, i.e., the children, of the aforementioned House were located in their individual beds and were engaged in nocturnal hallucinations, i.e., dreams, wherein visions of confectionery treats, including, but not limited to, candies, nuts and/or sugar plums, did dance, cavort and otherwise appear in said dreams.

        Whereupon the party of the first part (sometimes hereinafter referred to as “I”), being the joint-owner in fee simple of the House with the party of the second part (hereinafter “Mamma”), and said Mamma had retired for a sustained period of sleep. (At such time, the parties were clad in various forms of headgear, e.g., kerchief and cap.)

        Suddenly, and without prior notice or warning, there did occur upon the unimproved real property adjacent and appurtenant to said House, i.e., the lawn, a certain disruption of unknown nature, cause and/or circumstance. The party of the first part did immediately rush to a window in the House to investigate the cause of such disturbance.

        At that time, the party of the first part did observe, with some degree of wonder and/or disbelief, a miniature sleigh (hereinafter “the Vehicle”) being pulled and/or drawn very rapidly through the air by approximately eight (8) reindeer. The driver of the Vehicle appeared to be and in fact was, the previously referenced Claus.

        Said Claus was providing specific direction, instruction and guidance to the approximately eight (8) reindeer and specifically identified the animal co-conspirators by name: Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, Cupid, Donner and Blitzen (hereinafter “the Deer”). (Upon information and belief, it is further asserted that an additional coconspirator named “Rudolph” may have been involved.)

        The party of the first part witnessed Claus, the Vehicle and the Deer intentionally and willfully trespass upon the roofs of several residences located adjacent to and in the vicinity of the House, and noted that the Vehicle was heavily laden with packages, toys and other items of unknown origin or nature. Suddenly, without prior invitation or permission, either express or implied, the Vehicle arrived at the House, and Claus entered said House via the chimney.

        Said Claus was clad in a red fur suit, which was partially covered with residue from the chimney, and he carried a large sack containing a portion of the aforementioned packages, toys, and other unknown items. He was smoking what appeared to be tobacco in a small pipe in blatant violation of local ordinances and health regulations.

        Claus did not speak, but immediately began to fill the stocking of the minor children, which hung adjacent to the chimney, with toys and other small gifts. (Said items did not, however, constitute “gifts” to said minors pursuant to the applicable provisions of the US Tax Code.)

        Upon completion of such task, Claus touched the side of his nose and flew, rose and/or ascended up the chimney of the House to the roof where the Vehicle and Deer waited and/or served as “lookouts.” Claus immediately departed for an unknown destination.

        However, prior to the departure of the Vehicle, Deer and Claus from said House, the party of the first part did hear Claus state and/or exclaim:
        “Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night!”
        Or words to that effect.

    • #3038933

      Considering that Christians hijacked the Pagan holidays, …

      by deepsand ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      should it come as a surprise that Christmas should suffer the same fate?

    • #3038927

      The Truth about Christmas

      by vuture ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      The history of Christmas is long. So long, in fact, that much mythology and legend surrounding the holiday. The way we celebrate Christmas in America is less than 200 years old. In fact, it is closer to 150. We borrowed much of the traditions we have from numerous cultures that immigrated here from other countries since the United States was born. Before that, December 25th was a church calendar day that celebrated the birth of Jesus Christ. No trees. No presents. No cards. No garland. No Santa Claus. No reindeer. No ho! ho! ho!
      It had been that way, pretty much since around the 3rd century when the very young catholic church was forming in several parts of the world. The church that was located in Rome was called the Roman Catholic church (catholic meaning “universal”) To ease the conversion of the pagan Romans that believed in multiple dieties like Jupiter, Neptune, Venus, Apollo and others, the church at Rome chose saints and figures of the biblical stories as proxies for the Roman dieties. One such diety was Saturn, the god of agriculture and the harvest. His Roman holiday is Saturnalia which was celebrated around the winter solstice (on or about Dec. 21st). This is it the holiday the church at Rome chose to celebrate the birth of Christ because it was an easy substitute. The great majority of modern scholars agree Jesus of Nazareth was born sometime in the spring, probably April. But when you need converts and in Rome, do as the Romans do. The day stuck and now we celebrate Christ’s birthday on December 25th. We put up Christmas trees but no one really knows why. We hand garland and mistletoe though no one can explain where the idea came from. They are just traditions. The message of Christmas is “Peace on Earth. Goodwill toward men.” If we remember that, it doesn’t matter what religion it represents or where it came from. Its meaning and message are universal. Be kind and good towards one another and treat others as you would have them treat you. Too bad so many get hung up in semantics and religious dogmas and political correctness to overlook that. Because I don’t care what you say or how many times you say it. If your actions don’t back up the words, then the words are meaningless.

    • #3038923

      Sew……are you going to said party?

      by the ‘g-man.’ ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      If so what you going to do for revenge…

    • #3038912

      NO FUN!!!!

      by rayray247 ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      Christ mas is my least favorite holiday because all it is, is a whole bunch of little greedy kids wanting everything in the world and when i was a kid i got mostly all clothes and i think some familys need to consider no gifts this year and spending time with the family!

      • #2866769

        So Fun!

        by eyesak ·

        In reply to NO FUN!!!!

        Catch the Christmas Spirit.

        There will be greedy kids, if their parent or parents teach them those sort of values, whether or not people celebrate Christmas.

        The poor and the needy will receive food, presents, blankets etc.

        I like to think of that side of Christmas,
        and families gathering together and sharing themselves with each other and food and Love.

        Yes children will be glad to get gifts, it is an exiting time for many of them!

        Others will be mad because the are unsatisfied – that is typical of people.
        Still others in need will feel left out, lets give to some of those and teach our children to do the same!

        I was always excited to get new clothes on Christmas, and a toy or two, we did not get that much, but still we had a joyous time.

        I understand the sentiment, there are many children who get too many things but not enough Love. Some kids may not need much, but just a little something would be nice, otherwise they will feel left out.

        I will give both gifts and Love.

        Join in on the fun – join in on the celebration!

        I think it is safe to wish Jesus an happy birthday any day even it the date is wrong, since there are too many theories to worry about.

        The main thing is being thankful that Jesus was born to teach and to sacrifice himself for whosoever will believe and accept him as God in the flesh.

        If you don’t believe that, then no one will sue you for celebrating or not.

        As for my family we will celebrate!

    • #2866765

      Christmas is no longer a holiday but a mass marketing system

      by stephen.johansen ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      I agree that those who get offended by Christmas, don’t celebrate. Those who have other religions then celebrate them. But don’t stuff with our Christmas. I’m no Christian but Christmas is still a special time for us. Don’t deny us our holidays cause it doesn’t fit in with yours. P.S. This is not directed at anyone specifically so if you winge then I really don’t care. MERRY CHRISTMAS ALL

    • #2872337
    • #2872157

      Christmas can be dangerous

      by neilb@uk ·

      In reply to Christmas has been hijacked

      • #2872146

        Saw that, too

        by nicknielsen ·

        In reply to Christmas can be dangerous

        5,000 people rocked the house. Maybe next time they’ll form up outside to start with…

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