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  • #2344077

    College Degree vs. On the Job Experience

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    by pmercer ·

    How many of you have a college degree relevant to your field of work? How many have a college degree, but it is for some other major outside the technical world? And, how many (like me) have gained the position you are in through self-training andon the job opportunities?

    I am wondering how difficult it is out there to get into a position without a degree . . . I have worked at my company for 22 years and all of my opportunities have come from within this organization – so I don’t really have an experience with a job search while lacking a formal college education.

    I don’t have any intention of changing employers, but I would be interested to hear folks’ experiences and opinions on the subject of whether a degree is important, andwhether the lack of a degree has created roadblocks in your job search.

    Thanks!

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    • #3690186

      Entry papers?

      by bill-beaton ·

      In reply to College Degree vs. On the Job Experience

      I’m one of those without a degree (with 4 years of college over 30 years ago). I haven’t found any particular difficulty in looking for new opportunities, nor in hiring folks without degrees, but …

      1. It helps to have a lot of breadth, along with a couple of areas with depth of knowledge.

      2. Lack of a degree does negatively impact some areas of mobility; particularly with respect to working visas when crossing international boundaries (not insurmountable, but it does entail a lot more preparation (paperwork) and time delays.

      3. The degrees (or even certifications) help people entering the job market. With experience, many employers are looking at how relevant the job fit is. Some companies (even those that advertise for degrees) may go to the extremes of granting the equivalent of a degree, while reducing experience by 5 or more years for the purpose of fitting you into their H.R. program profile.

      4. 22 or 35 years is good, but a potential employer wants to see those many years of experience, not 1 year repeated 22 times.

    • #3690178

      Hobby turned profession

      by generalist ·

      In reply to College Degree vs. On the Job Experience

      For me IT is a hobby that got turned into a profession. I have a BS degree in a field that can be either administrative or design oriented, depending upon the emphasis.

      When I got the degree, IBM punch cards, Teletypes, DecWriters and other older forms of IT hardware were dominant and networked systems using video terminals were just starting to be used. The ‘big’ personal computer platforms were the TRS-80 and the original Apple II.

      I found that I liked playing with computers and managed to become the computer jockey for the department. I snuck in a bunch of computer classes as an unofficial major and enjoyed them. My senior project even dealt with information systems in the context of my major.

      When I graduated my chosen profession was in a hiring freeze so I expanded my job search to the IT realm. It has worked out, more or less, for a little over twenty years.

      Oddly enough, after my last move, my degreed profession became a hobby. Even more interesting, during a recent round of unemployment, I managed to get a high score on a civil service exam for an entry level position in that profession.

      I will admit that I have had to go back to school to expand upon my technical skills. Learning by self study doesn’t quite have the credentials as learning in a class. Furthermore, you need experience with what you have learned in order for employers to take a serious look at your new, but untested skills.

    • #3690130

      I have a degree

      by epepke ·

      In reply to College Degree vs. On the Job Experience

      Math, with an emphasis on computer science.

      I can’t say that it’s helped or hindered me in getting a job after leaving academia. I tend to think that the process of getting a job is largely irrelevant anyway. It’s just a game.

      However, it has helped me significantly in doing my job. A good foundation in the basics is great.

    • #3690034

      Degree Vs HND

      by guruofdos ·

      In reply to College Degree vs. On the Job Experience

      A Higher National Diploma or similar vocational course is much better than a degree as it tends to be more up-to-date, more hands on and more relevant. I have a BSc (Hons) in Electronic Engineering and an HND in Electronics. The HND took me a year, the Degree took two. I learned more in my one year of HND study that was relevant to my field than I ever did on a Degree Course. However, whichever way you tackle things, learning on a day-to-day basis and keeping your skills honed is far more important than ANY piece of paper. No employer should ever hire someone on the basis of a piece of paper alone. It shows you can pass exams or impress some professor who’s own skills are probably out of date. Proprietary certifications should also be treated with a pinch of salt. An MCSE is all very well on paper, but experience learned on the job counts for far more in the ‘real’ world.

      • #3691702

        Good Employer

        by ice-tech ·

        In reply to Degree Vs HND

        Your concepts are exactly how I feel myself. Many, if not most, higher education centers still do not teach current technology in the right fashion. So many colleges and universities still focus on Cobol, Fortran, RPG, etc.

        On the flip side having a certification for an OS, software, etc is only as good as the person who will be applying it.

        The real balance is “traditional” education (the three r’s), specific technical education, applied experience, and ability. Toss in a dash of personality and you’d have what I consider to be the perfect employee. Major shortcomings in any of those areas really reduce the chance for a successful (and happy) career.

        Sadly, though, many employers have a hiring process similar to a meat packing plant. Run ’em in, slap ’em down, grind ’em up, ship ’em out.

        • #3692681

          Education out of date

          by jason ·

          In reply to Good Employer

          I studied a Masters degree course at a university (UK) in 1996/7 where they taught us basic Java and basic SQL. We sat exams and practicals for both. We never used them together. Go figure. Trouble is, a lot of the Java application structure becomesmore complicated when you start having to manage a UI plus innards communicating with a back end database or some other server. When your data becomes voluminous, then your technique needs to change so that the UI remains responsive, as well as looking after other design priorities. They didn’t teach us any of that, and most of my classroom peers still haven’t learnt it yet. The freshies joining us today aren’t any different. So even if you employed purely on the degree, you wouldn’t be gettingwhat you wanted/needed. My own experience of hiring people is that you just have to find out for real (as much as possible, that is) what they are really capable of. That’s a tough one. I had classmates who were pretty clueless but still got higher marks than I did. It just shows better exam technique.

          I do have to admit, though, that the piece of paper sometimes does open doors. My degree is nothing more than a piece of paper to me, and that it helps me sometimes.

    • #3692378

      You need both . . .

      by xxx123 ·

      In reply to College Degree vs. On the Job Experience

      IT is a very volatile field – – so the best option, not surprisingly, is to have both so that if your current employer decides they no longer require your services, you have the best chances of getting another job.

      There are many companies that WILL NOT consider a candidate without some kind of bachelor’s degree (doesn’t have to be directly related to the work field but it helps.) If you don’t have one, it gives the employer an excuse to say “There are no qualified candidates, I need to hire an H1-B.”

      Some people do get thru their careers without a degree and more power to them. But I think the world market is producing a high quantity of people with at least one undergrad degree so just be careful you don’t get left out in the cold.

      • #3691664

        I don’t but wish I did

        by overseer2k1 ·

        In reply to You need both . . .

        I don’t have a degree and have been hired by good companies that understood the true value of some degrees and certifications. The bottom line is that degrees don’t make a necessarily good employee and neither do certifications. i know many certified and or degreed individuals that I can run circles around. That is not to say that all people are the same…don’t get me wrong. I have been offered positions with the big three in important positions (management) and they knew I did not have a degree. I do wish I had one to solidify my options should something happen to my present job, but good people can be found from both sides and it is becasuse of degreed and non degreed people that we have the technology that we do and the information that we share…

    • #3692333

      I don’t have degree

      by it tech ·

      In reply to College Degree vs. On the Job Experience

      I do have 20+ years exp however. Have looked at programs i.e. computer sci, and Info systems, the problem looking at the course of instruction (COI) structure 98% is N/A for real world apps. Have worked for DoD, Lockheed Martin, and EPA. Was hired on exp alone. Would like to have a degree, but need to find one that would help not to just say I have one that I would not use. I guess I shoud do so before I retire.

    • #3692142

      Experience

      by glyptixs ·

      In reply to College Degree vs. On the Job Experience

      “Experience can only take you so fare.”

      These words have been said to me, more than any other since I started working in the IT field a little over 2 years ago. I am nineteen years old, and I currently manage an IT department for a steel corporation out of Tulsa, OK. I started as a contract help desk employee and now have my own 10×12 office making over 50K yearly. As for certifications, I only have an MCP, however I do plan on having my CCNA with in a month.

      Within the past year I have fired only one person. He was a (Book) MCSE, with no actual job experience in the field. I have worked with a lot of techs and a lot of technical instructors (MCT, CCNA, CNE). And the very best techs I have ever met have absolutely no certifications.

      I am not saying certifications are not good, exactly the opposite. Certifications will open great opportunities for you during your career path. But a certification does not always mean that you know what your doing.

      Me personally, when I go to hire, I put experience over certifications. However I don?t usually find people unless they have some type of certification.

    • #3690634

      A degree is important.

      by admin ·

      In reply to College Degree vs. On the Job Experience

      So is experience. By varying degrees to different employers. My degree is outside my field. There are some places that this is a big issue, but I haven’t worked for any yet. I personally like the shops small enough to get a chance to present yourself rather than the big corporations, where I know you can’t get around certain qualifications.

      When I hire, I want someone that can do the job. A degree and or experience don’t necessarily mean someone knows what they are doing, although they can be good indicators.

      • #3692499

        Yes and No

        by digi-tal ·

        In reply to A degree is important.

        I can say many things about this, things that are fair and unfair about degree vs. experience. I have no degree, I have some college and a lot of school (military computer school etc.) and 21 years of experience. I can say it makes a difference in getting a job. I can also say experience is what helps you KEEP your job. I have been passed over for the “lack of degree” issue several times (hurts don’t it)!
        If you look at the amount of schools I have you would find a four year degree doesn’t hold a candle. I’ve also watched these degreed people with little experience lose their job and eventually I get top billing.
        It is frustrating to train someone without experience only to watch them take the job you applied for.

        • #3721366

          What are you saying yes or no to?

          by admin ·

          In reply to Yes and No

          I agree, bottom line what keeps you there is what you can do, regardless of what degrees/certs you have. Getting the job though, sometimes is more difficult and laden with “hoops” at the front end. One of the common ones is a degree.
          I’m not sayingthose without degrees are not often better workers – they can be better and often are.I am saying that when I talk to young people especially, the degree will not hurt them, and statistically they will have more opportunities once they land those difficult to acquire first good jobs.

          I guess I’m saying I agree with you. They are both important.

          Actually, one alternate track I have seen many people with successful careers do is the military one. The people I know that have gone through this have an excellent mixture of software and hardware skills, able to build custom interfaces between the bytes and real world devices. I am not sure if this is universally true, but it is an area that consistantly is looking for employees no MSCE track and few college programs teach interfacing as a core of the curriculim (if at all).

    • #3690465

      Experience is more valuable

      by rosah ·

      In reply to College Degree vs. On the Job Experience

      I have an A.A.S. in Information Management and an MCSE — but I didn’t start with them. I have over 16 years experience – which is where most of my knowledge still comes from, the degree is 5 years old, and the MCSE is just a year past. My attittude was that even after 10 years I needed some paper to prove I knew what I said I did.

      • #3690427

        Results are important.

        by glenb1 ·

        In reply to Experience is more valuable

        I have only three years in the IT field, and currently work as Tech Support in a major wholesaler’s regional buying office. At this time I, and my supervisor, support over 200 users (who thankfully are never all in the office at the same time!).

        I am self-taught, but decided to get my A+ to prove, as the previous writer mentioned, that I DO know my stuff. I moved into my position from within the company, but I beat out 34 other applicants, and scored second highest on the job application test.

        Paper shows that you are displined enough to study, and smart enough to pass tests. But results speak for themselves, and if you can show creativity and dedication on the job, and continue to teach yourself as you go along, then that goes a long way toward getting good references if you should ever need to look for another job.

        And how satisfied our “customers” are is the bottom line, as in any business. In my case, my customers are users, and they are very satisfied. Hey, they feed me cookies!

    • #3690328

      ABSOLUTELY!

      by nkqx57a ·

      In reply to College Degree vs. On the Job Experience

      I am out of work today, for the third time in seven years, because of the evolution-taking place in the global economy, not because I do not have a degree. In 34 years, I have gone from being responsible for multi-million dollar equipment and humanlives, to the unemployment line again. Along the way, I have gained formal and informal training and excelled in applying what I had learned. The combination of this training and accumulation of the knowledge and experience gained, and knowing how to apply it has always been my biggest asset.

      You, I am sure many others, and myself; are proof that, even without a degree you can still have a full and meaningful working life. Our degree is in life itself, the good and bad times were events that we learned from and came away stronger because of it. Life?s experiences are priceless treasures that I will never forget and would not trade them for any piece of paper, no matter how much more money it may have brought.

      However, to answer your question, as to whether I think a degree is important; my answer is, for young people today, absolutely! One of my personal goals is, that I will obtain one before I die.

    • #3691963

      College Degree vs. On the Job Experience

      by nyong_nkitma ·

      In reply to College Degree vs. On the Job Experience

      It is true that on the job experience is very important for a quick start. For those who were able to get employed and undertook long time training and with long years experience could reach high positions, good luck.

      But today, the labour market worldwide is saturated and rarely any employer wants to spend much time and resources to train semi-illiterate folks to acquire the required level of expertise to meet challenges. Secondly,the emerging world and the accompanied business competitionis fast-paced.Everybody wants to get there as soon as possible. Therefore, as it takes shorter time to train up a college graduate, employers would preferrably gamble for one. On the job experience alone counts, but to a very limited level. A good College graduate in addition to on- the- job experience has greater leverage to win the competition war for organisations. In other words, a good degree plus a little experience stands a better chance of getting new jobs than just an experience.

      Thank you.

      • #3691752

        Faster to train college grad?

        by pmercer ·

        In reply to College Degree vs. On the Job Experience

        Why would it take a shorter time to train a college graduate . . . assuming two people are applying for the same position with the same level of knowledge about the work?

        • #3691691

          Individual ability is basis

          by ice-tech ·

          In reply to Faster to train college grad?

          I agree PMercer.

          Monkeys and lab rats can also be trained. Once trained they will learn at a quicker pace the next time. That does not mean that monkeys and rats that are trained have a higher capacity for overall achievement than the non-trained ones. They may reach their individual peak sooner but they still have a peak based upon their individual ability.

          So a college grad may actually learn where the bathroom and coffee maker are quicker than some poor sap with no degree, but that does not mean in any way that they will out-achieve a non-degreed person in the long haul.

          I have met many degreed people that could not find their way out of a paper sack. Of course the same holds true for non-degreed people. The point is, the ability to graduate from college due to memorization, brown-nosing, taking racquetball for credit, etc can not be a guideline for a successful long term employee.

          College is useful in today’s high-tech world as a means to hone the three “r”s and produce paperwork to hand to some business major that learned in a 30 year old textbook that college is an absolute must. Until the universities and colleges of the world begin training students in /current/ technology, by up-to-date instructors, concentrating on hands-on applications of the subject, the only big benefit is to the school’s finances.

      • #3692517

        College Degree vs. On the Job Experience

        by nkqx57a ·

        In reply to College Degree vs. On the Job Experience

        It is a matter of economics. Someone with a degree and 3 years experience vs. no degree and 30 years experience cost much less not only in salary, but also in benefits. Unfortunately, Corporate America is back to only looking at todays bottom-line and ignoring the future. Making the same mistakes as in the past and is doomed to repeating them at the experience of its workforce and corporate culture. In a global economy, jobs will gravitate to where the costs are the lowest. For instance, look at manufacturing in America today, where have all the jobs gone.

    • #3691915

      What do you want to do?

      by spankmeister88 ·

      In reply to College Degree vs. On the Job Experience

      Hey,
      I am fairly new to the IT world(2 1/2 months) after spending 16 years in Restaurant Management. I got hired without a degree or any certifications, I was in the right place at the right time and have a passion for technology. I am finding that I am not criticized for having no “Papers”, but I definately can see that if I wanted any upward mobility I would definately need some. Most of the people I work with do not have any degree or certifications, but have a wealth of experience. I recently overheard a conversation that about sums it up…”You can have degrees and certifications up the yin-yang but if you cannot solve problems then you are in trouble.” I do plan on being MCSE certified within 4 months. I cannot see in a corporation someone being hired as middle or upper management without at least a degree, now if you want to just work in IT, I don’t see it being a problem, at least that is what I have seen and experienced.

    • #3691770

      Have a BSBA in Information Systems

      by it geek ·

      In reply to College Degree vs. On the Job Experience

      I got my degree in 1987, just missed the punch card era thank God, but glad I was around for the DOS. Unless you are in the right place at the right time, get the degree first. The kid who does my Cisco programming is an exceptional exception to my advice. He was going to school at a local college and got a job at an excellent local computer company puts in networks, builds PC/servers, has an ISP, et al) He never finished the degree but is a MSCE and a Cisco certified, and one VERY smart kid. In my experience, I am glad my degree is business based and not engineering based as the business background helped just as much as the IS part in getting the first job after school and doing well in all my jobs since then.

      • #3691646

        Degree counts

        by aliendeveloper ·

        In reply to Have a BSBA in Information Systems

        Today you can see a lot of problems with people doing development work in the field that have not been formally trained. It definitely depends on what you are doing and how far you want to go. The comments that any monkey can be trained just goes to show that some people don’t understand and have not been trained in proper design practices. The language you program in doesn’t matter, it’s the algorithms behind the coding and how the system was designed to start with. If you are only cranking out short little scripts, it isn’t as important, but in the long run and for more involved projects it is absolutely crucial. I’ve been in the field a long time, and I can tell you from experience many a door has been opened for me because of my degree. It definitely has been worth it for me.

        • #3691582

          Degree or no Degree

          by cema ·

          In reply to Degree counts

          I am a 23 year old IT professional, and have been one for about 6 years. The only way that I got all of my 4 jobs is by promising them that I am in College and studying for my BS in CIS. I will finally have my degree by Winter time and can already see new doors opening in front of me especially on the many government projects in the DC area. Although I don’t learn anything new about IT in school, my humanities type courses teach me how to interact well with tothers on the job.
          Sam

        • #3691506

          Non-IT Depth

          by generalist ·

          In reply to Degree or no Degree

          Having the non-IT courses like the sociology, psychology, creative writing and even art can be quite worth while to an IT career. It can show an employer that you have some depth to your education as well as indicate that you aren’t a complete anti-social tech type.

          Furthermore, you can often find lots of ways to apply things. Creative writing can help you pitch proposals. Art can give you an eye for both web page design and diagram layout. Sociology and psychology are invaluable in handling people and knowing why people react the ways they do.

    • #3692620

      Another Moldy Oldy

      by crecycler ·

      In reply to College Degree vs. On the Job Experience

      It has been a nightmare trying to even get an interview. I have been in the computer industry for twenty years, they didn’t have college courses in computers back then. I have extensive experience and have worked hard to be an asset to companies I’ve worked with and for. I now have a background in mainframe, mid-range, server, and PCs. My last company was a contractor for a now defunct ILEC. I have been unemployed since May and have only had 2 interviews. I know that part of the problem has been industry wide down turn. At this point I am going for my Cisco certification, due to time available for study.

      I have no idea whether lack of an IT/MIS has contributed to my extended time out of the employment arena, I do know that I wish I hada degree so it WOULDN’T be an issue when applying for positions.

    • #3721294

      Deg.+Off t’ job exp.=out of field empl?

      by 6mysterysteward ·

      In reply to College Degree vs. On the Job Experience

      My degree is also Mathematics with Computer Science emphasis. Right now, my resume is being evaluated for a part time position at the local university school of social work for statistical programming. Get this–it is in my favor to know Fortran! (Which I do.) ALL of my pc knowledge from 1981 until AD 2000 has been on/off the job experience. My degree has helped me (I think) not get lost, for example, in Steve Gibson’s internet security discussions and MS XT concerns. It seems, for my interest in working in academic settings, the degree with my name is an assurance to the potential employer that I have at least spent some time learning Academia’s language and culture, which is both polite and helpful.

    • #3721264

      degree or not to degree

      by delbert fudrucker ·

      In reply to College Degree vs. On the Job Experience

      I have worked 31 years for Civil Service. I am a senior systems analyst and do not have a degree. I do have two years of college. If I were to try to find a job comparable on the outside, I could not or would not be hired. In this day and time experience is not enough. All of the young pups with degrees are starting 15000 over my top.

    • #3721070

      Degree helps to get a job

      by josef.haas ·

      In reply to College Degree vs. On the Job Experience

      A college degree helps to get a job, however, to get your job done it takes more than a degree. The human ressources department has to rely on “objective” information about professional background and capability, and a degree helps a lot. Furthermore, a degree helps to support salary decisions. So basically things like degrees and certificates help to have a good start within an organisation (especially in hierarchical structures).

    • #3720367

      No prob for me, but….

      by jack_swayze ·

      In reply to College Degree vs. On the Job Experience

      Not having a degree (in anything) has not been a problem for me, as near as I can tell. I have had continual employment in the IT field for over 20 yrs (but back then it was Data Processing).

      But, then, I have never been a manager, never been a supervisor, never been an officer of a company. Do I want to? Hmmm….

      Since I ‘broke into’ the field so long ago, things have likely changed.

      Are you considering a change of profession, as well as a change in employer? If so, a degree (in the new profession) would be highly helpful.

      I must point out, however, that your greatest stumbling block to a job change is the fact that you have been with the same employer for 22 yrs.

      While I havn’t been a manager, I have done a lot of interviewing of prospects over the years (a LOT!).

      I have interviewed a few people, such as yourself, and have never recommended hiring them. Not because of the long experience at the previous firm, but because they are so used to how that company operates that they cannot imagine any other way of doing things.

      So, here is my recommendation. Work two jobs. Keep your current job (I assume it is one that you work only 8 hrs a day) and work part-time at another. Then, after you have worked a few months at the part-time job. Deliberately change jobs to another firm and work part-time there also. You may need to do this three or four times.

      This will give you a more broad outlook on work life and give you ample opportunity to pickup new skills.

      • #3720651

        Longevity a stumbling block

        by pmercer ·

        In reply to No prob for me, but….

        I am actually not planning on leaving my employer, as I have gotten plenty of opportunities to grow and change direction as I please with this company.

        I do have a question – when you interviewed the folks with many years with one employer, how did you identify the fact that they were incapable of changing the way they do things?

        In case I ever do consider changing employers, I want to make sure that I don’t send the wrong signals.

        • #3711155

          How I tell they cant (wont) change

          by jack_swayze ·

          In reply to Longevity a stumbling block

          That is an easy one…

          When I describe a challenging situation to them (paint a scenario) and I ask them to tell me how they would respond to that situation…

          They either go into an explaination of how they have never seen anything like that,because it just wasn’t allowed to happen like that in their current job…

          Or they explain how the ‘standard procedure’ at their existing company would direct them to handle the situation.

          A better answer would be to come up with some creativeway to handle it off-the-top-of-their-head. Or, even better still, to describe how they would martial the various (seemingly conflicting) viewpoints in a consensus building session to let the group come up with a creative solution.

          Bottom line:people don’t pay much for a ‘stick in the mud’ who is complaining all the time that this job isn’t like the previous one.

        • #3711114

          Honesty and answers

          by generalist ·

          In reply to How I tell they cant (wont) change

          I don’t consider myself to be one of the ‘stick in the mud’ types who are always complaining about differences in job environments. But your response struck a discord.

          If given a scenario and asked for a response, honesty might be my biggest problem and my answers would, at first, be the ‘wrong’ ones.

          For example, if I haven’t seen the situation before, I’d admit that. If the reason I hadn’t seen it was due to company policies, I’d admit that too.

          And if there was an standard procedure for handling the situation I’d mention it.

          Not good by your example, but honest.

          At this point I’m getting boxed in. If I suggest that I have thought of other ways of handling the situation, the creative approach, I can be perceived as a maverick who won’t obay the house rules. But if I don’t make the suggestion, I can be perceived as the ‘stick in the mud’ type.

          It is even worse if I don’t have a chance to suggest creative alternatives.

          Any suggestions on how to avoid being boxed in?

          (I thought of one that might work for one variation of the problem, though I haven’t tried it. I’d ask the interviewers if they want to hear the solutions I’ve seen or the ones I can think of.)

        • #3707599

          Yes, be honest

          by jack_swayze ·

          In reply to Honesty and answers

          If you honestly believe that you can’t see the creative approach because you would be ‘fixated’ on the policy at your current company, or for other reasons I catagorized as ‘stick in the mud’ then that should be your answer.

          That also means that you would be more satisfied at your current employer than the new one.

          Yes, be honest. Reply with what is most important in your heart.

          If solving the scenario creatively isn’t top priority in your heart, and all you can focus on is how you miss how things were at your previous employer, then you snould answer with the ‘stick in the mud’ answer.

          Because you would be unhappy if you got the job.

        • #3707543

          How about too much creativity?

          by generalist ·

          In reply to Yes, be honest

          Actually, coming up with a creative solution to a problem is my preferred modus operandi. If anything, I tend to be too creative for some people, offering multiple solutions to a problem that vary with the resources available and the parameters youwant to optimize.

          I sometimes wonder if my hyper-creativity mode scares people off. If you look at personality types, about 75% of the population tend to prefer thinking inside the box where options and decisions are fairly simple.

          Unforunately I haven’t found an enviroment that fully supports that creativity. When you combine that with wanting to be honest about my past experience, dissonance results.

          When I think about it, my ‘perfect’ job would be one where I could be an idea person who looks at the big picture and can help an organization use their full set of resources to maximum effect. Even at forty-plus I can think sideways better than the bulk of the population.

          Heck, I get high on brainstorming…

        • #3714825

          Look up the word ‘circumspect’

          by jack_swayze ·

          In reply to How about too much creativity?

          From your previous posts, I get the sense that you try to cover all aspects of a situation equally.

          Being truthful about your previous (current) job… listing all your creative solutions… etc.

          While your motivations might be from a desireto ‘tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth’ very few of us work in a court of law.

          You run the risk of monopolizing the conversation, to get all your points in.

          My recommendation: set priorities. Answer only as much as the reciever can accept.

          Instead of trying to cover all angles of the situation, focus on what is most important, here and now.

          You run the risk of making it look like you are involved in the situation to maximize how much time is spent focusing on you, and your description of the alternatives and their surrounding situations.

          The task at hand is about solving a problem, or accomplishing an assignment, rather than focusing on your contribution, more often than not.

          By increasing the time people spend listening to you explain all the aspects of a situation you are increasing the cost… without an equal increase in the benifit.

          In short, you are in risk of not being the ‘least cost’ provider. Someone else, who may not have as good an idea as you do, but who is succinct and to the point, is more profitable than you are since it takes so much time to listen to all the explaination surrounding your ideas.

          You also run the risk of offending your teammates.

    • #3720312

      What am I doing?

      by jacmari ·

      In reply to College Degree vs. On the Job Experience

      After reading all of this, I’m starting to feel really scared. I know that experience is what counts. But as a person about to graduate with my Bachelors soon, and with not too much experience, besides the Internship I’m currently in… is there any hope at all? I’m starting to think that I’ll be going to thousands of job interviews until a company is willing to take in an entry level worker. Any advice?

      • #3720246

        Attitude and alternatives

        by generalist ·

        In reply to What am I doing?

        Well, attitude helps.

        If you show a potential employer that you have a proper attitude, you’ll get your foot in the door.

        Part of that attitude involves admitting that you don’t know everything, despite the degree. Hopefully your internship has exposed you to the ‘real world’ of IT and you have seen some of the gaps in your formal education. In many organizations you’ll find that the proper way of doing things is often replaced by more expedient ways.

        Being cheerfully helpful can prove useful. If you show that the ‘customer’ comes first you might be able to work your way into IT through the Help Desk. Better still, you might find an organization that needs a people person as an interface between IT and different users.

        Having alternative skills that are not IT related can help too. You might find a situation where a small company needs both sets of skills and can only afford to hire one person.

      • #3722264

        What am I doing?

        by nkqx57a ·

        In reply to What am I doing?

        Why not try to pursue your current internship; get it extended or ask about permanent positions that will continue your work experience. Besides, do not forget that your internship counts as experience. I do not think you are going to have that muchtrouble in finding a job that will continue to provide valuable experiences that will help in landing future jobs. I wish I were in your position; I would have a job by now.

      • #3720558

        Managerial help

        by ice-tech ·

        In reply to What am I doing?

        I took in a co-op student this Summer. He has a few electives to finish up before he has a 2 year degree. After his first week I sat him down and asked what he thought of the job, what he’d learned, etc. He basically said that what he had learnedin college so far hadn’t prepared him for the job. His coursework is Info Systems, he’s had a few networking theory classes, lot of Cobol (yawn), Fortran (bigger yawn), etc. I didn’t want him to feel too bad as he said he’d be going on for his bachelors so I asked what the 3rd & 4th year course schedules looked like… More calculus, Advanced Cobol. . . I don’t like telling people that formal education will not matter. There are still some “old school” managers out there that (since they have a degree and don’t want to think they wasted their time) think you have to have a formal 4 year degree. Government jobs also have requirements for 4 year degrees in IT fields. Near here I see a number of aerospace jobs, etc that ask for a 4 year and xx experience. But government pushes education for it’s own reasons, just as the schools themselves do.

        IMHO I think having an associates and a drive to learn is the best way to go. Most people will get the type of training on the job that means the most.

        You’ll begin to see a shift in the job requirements area. Many managers now are in the 40-50 year old arena and 30 years ago degrees were very important. Unless colleges get their act together (which I doubt will happen based upontheir requirements for classes to be held and taught by the professors) they won’t be worth much in real preparation for a career. There is always the benefit of vocabulary, reading, speaking and spelling skills, but I know MBA’s who still use their spellcheckers as a crutch so what’s that tell you?

      • #3707585

        My advice

        by jack_swayze ·

        In reply to What am I doing?

        Go to thousands of interviews.

        It doesn’t matter how many times someone says “no”.

        It only matters that you keep searching until you find the one that says “yes” – and that you keep searching until you find one for which you truly want to work.

        I remember when I started in the field. I couldnt understand why the ‘work world’ didn’t recognize what a great prize I was. If you are like me, and you grew up in a loving home, it is a shock to realize that the ‘work world’ isn’t like family.

        Your employers don’t give money to you because they love you, or even because they like you. You recieve money for services rendered…. only.

        If your employer can ‘sell’ the results of your work for more money than he/she is paying you, then you will be employed there.

        If not, you wont.

        Be prepared for lots of ‘no’ answers. Also be prepared to walk away from a situation that you believe would become intollerable in a few months.

        (to mis-apply a saying)

        “you have to kiss alot of frogs to find the prince”

    • #3716737

      what are we really trying to do?

      by darpaicq ·

      In reply to College Degree vs. On the Job Experience

      As a programming manager, I want the very best programmers as employees. How they got there is of little concern, just that they have the skills and desire to do quality work. Formal training gives potential, but doesn’t necessarily mean they havethe skills and desire. Actual experience doing quality work is much more valuable, but it is extremely difficult to determine whether a potential employee has that type of experience. That’s why employers rely on other ‘indicators’ like formal education and certifications. My advice is: Be the best that you can in your chosen field. Be very good at dealing with people (not always easy with programmer types). Be cognizant of the fact that some employers have minimum formal education requirements. Base your training, formal and informal, on these points.

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