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  • #2202892

    Computers without software – why not?

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    by dogcatcher ·

    Why can’t we buy fully assembled computers without any software installed?

    I’m not talking about making available a few fringe models, but rather to have that choice on every darn model that Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc. offer on their custom configuration websites.

    The price of the computer can be adjusted for the lost incentives tied to trialware and related software trash.

    Hardware drivers can be provided on a CD and made available for downloading.

    To say that we must have an operating system installed in order to use the hardware ducks the question and doesn’t fit today’s mature computer market. Most of us have licensed copies of XP and Vista lying around, we can download Windows 7 RC for free, and many prefer one of the Linux distributions.

    If the answer to my question is that Microsoft makes the manufacturers include Microsoft software, isn’t that forced tie-in a blatant anti-trust violation?

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    • #2961938

      Well, as a guess,

      by charliespencer ·

      In reply to Computers without software – why not?

      “Most of us have licensed copies of XP and Vista lying around,…”

      Most of ‘us’ here at TR are IT professionals. Most of the market for consumer-grade systems are not IT professionals and don’t have copies of an OS lying around. They don’t know how to install drivers, and if they can’t get the NIC running then they can’t pull down the other drivers they may need.

      The market for systems with no OS is pretty small. It’s not worth the vendor’s trouble to maintain two inventories and price structures for the same system, one with OS and a minority without.

      • #2933453

        It’s just another option

        by dogcatcher ·

        In reply to Well, as a guess,

        When you can select from among four to six different CPUs, several versions of Vista, and dozens of other hardware choices, it really is inconsequential to offer a no-OS option. Heck, it actually saves the manufacturer money since there is no cost to image the desired system onto the chosen hard drive.

        Not to be a conspiracy theorist, but I suspect there is something much deeper going on here. The uniformity of behavior among diverse manufacturers is a symptom of pressure to limit options, and the one who benefits most from that particular arrangement is Microsoft.

        Btw, I’ve never had a bit of trouble moving an OEM license to another computer. The key issue for the license reps seems to be to get assurance that the license will be used on only one PC.

        • #2959262

          Not a conspiracy theory,

          by seanferd ·

          In reply to It’s just another option

          just marketing agreements.

        • #2959094

          Not legal to move OEM software

          by jtakiwi ·

          In reply to It’s just another option

          Even though you haven’t had trouble, you open yourself or your customer(s) to legal trouble if you follow this practice. It seems logical as long as you limit yourself to a single install of the software, but, you got the big discount on the software by purchasing with a specific piece of hardware. I don’t make up the rules, just interpret (and this one is simple to interpret) them for clients.

        • #2959086

          It is legal to move OEM software in most jurisdictions

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Not legal to move OEM software

          Microsoft try to say otherwise, but most consumer laws provide that once you buy the licence you have a legal right to put it on any system you want as long as you only have the software on one system per licence. It can also be sold on to a another party as second hand property, just like a used LP or DVD.

        • #2756878

          One more option

          by sagax- ·

          In reply to It’s just another option

          Buy from a “white box” seller. They assemble PCs from components made by mainline manufacturers. Example: pcusa.com You must accept that without an OS the pc has not been pre-tested or “burnt-in”.

        • #2756797

          Not all “white box” sellers wear white hats.

          by deepsand ·

          In reply to One more option

          And, if it’s not been properly tested, it’s a pig in a poke.

          Burn-in can & and should be done even if box is delivered sans OS.

    • #2933584

      Marketing and Licensing

      by thechas ·

      In reply to Computers without software – why not?

      First question, how many retail versions of XP or valid corporate license keys do you have?

      You CANNOT legally use an OEM version of Windows from one computer on a different computer. Every Microsoft OEM license is tied to the original hardware it was sold with or installed on.

      As to Windows 7 RC, yes, you can use it for “free”. BUT, it expires in less than a year. Then what will you do.

      As to why the major computer manufactures do not offer “raw” computers, the market is just too small to be worth the effort.

      I remember many years back that Tiger Direct was offering a few computers with no OS. As I recall, the savings were minimal. At the time, the average entry level computer sold for around $750. Without software, the computer sold for between $650 and $700.

      Combine the low cost difference with a limited market segment and you have no commercial justification for the market.

      Yes, Microsoft does consider a computer sold without an OS to be the same invitation to stealing that the RIAA and movie industry see optical disks as. I have heard “rumors” that Microsoft does try to restrict the ability of it’s OEM partners to sell systems without an OS. However, it would not rise to the level of anti-trust unless Microsoft required their partners to install ONLY Microsoft software on systems.

      In many retail and commercial activities, it is common for the contracts between suppliers and manufactures or retailers to have restrictions, covenants, non-disclosure and non-compete clauses.

      Now, there is at least 1 computer company that will sell you a full system with no OS.

      http://www.buyxg.com/

      Will sell any system they make without an operating system. But, for the most part, you cannot buy an OS for what they charge to install one.

      Chas

      • #2933570

        CHAS – Licences are NOT legally tied to a system or hardware

        by deadly ernest ·

        In reply to Marketing and Licensing

        the Australian consumer laws allows you to sell on the licence or move it to another machine if you wish. I forget where, but I did see an article a few years back about some US state consumer laws enforcing the same thing and stating the licence tied to machine aspects of the MS EULA can not be legally enforced in most of the US states, some were listed as having not got a response from the relevant government bodies.

        The laws enforces you need a legal licence for each instance of the software running on systems in your possession, but that’ s all. You can reuse the licence or on sell it. The fact MS try to enforce the no transfer part of the EULA in unlawful ways is a separate issue. One way they do that is with the WGA and tracking key serial numbers for the registered hardware in WGA.

    • #2933568

      Anyone who goes to a Mum and Pop shop can buy what

      by deadly ernest ·

      In reply to Computers without software – why not?

      they want, with or without a licence. The trouble is it sometimes costs a bit more. The good point is it’s a vanilla system for which spare parts are easily attainable, as are upgrades – unlike Dells and HPS etc, not all can be upgraded very few can do more than upgrade the RAM or hard drive.

      I recently got a second hand Dell and I can’t even get a replacement PSU for it as it’s smaller than the one you get for most desktops, a normal desktop PSU is too big by half an inch in each direction and won’t fit. That means I can’t install a bigger graphics card to get away from the on board one as the better cards require more power than the minimal 220w PSU the Dell comes with – a P4 with a 220w PSU (shakes heard sadly).

      • #2959069

        They got you !

        by butkus ·

        In reply to Anyone who goes to a Mum and Pop shop can buy what

        Yep.. I bought a few “off brand” cases and Dells / Gateway are the same. Just can’t change much inside anymore. Just like a car stereo. If you notice the big electronics stores don’t have much in car stereo equipment as the manufactures have made it impossible to replace them. My Subaru Tribeca needed the dash removed to get to the very specific radio /CD.
        Dell and Gateway love to sell you a $120 PS that should cost $40. They used to, or still may, changed the power supply plugs to their specs. Planned obsolescence.

    • #2933560

      Cars without engines – why not?

      by deepsand ·

      In reply to Computers without software – why not?

      Probably sell more of these than computers with no OS.

      • #2959191

        Not sure if the anology works

        by slayer_ ·

        In reply to Cars without engines – why not?

        Perhaps, Car’s without gas, drivers, or batteries would be more appropriate.

        A computer can run just fine without an operating system.

        • #2959129

          “A computer can run just fine without an …” OS

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Not sure if the anology works

          Yeah, but what will it do besides holding down my papers, turning electricity into heat and a breeze?

        • #2959127

          They make a good boat anchor for a small boat

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to “A computer can run just fine without an …” OS

          and that’s about it.

        • #2959123

          Too many heavy metals

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to They make a good boat anchor for a small boat

          I’m almost positive the environmental authorities would have a full-blown hissy-fit. I wouldn’t want to eat the fish from that pond.

        • #2959098

          it can

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to “A computer can run just fine without an …” OS

          keep saying “Invalid system disc” over and over

        • #2959065

          Does that count as a screen saver?

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to it can

          If that’s your idea of “running just fine without an operating system”, avoid jobs in technical support 🙂

        • #2950443

          My best security on my windows machine I ever had

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to Does that count as a screen saver?

          Was when Win95 somehow buggered up its bootup, it would just boot to a dos every time, you had to type “win” to get to windows.
          Since I was the only one to see that message come up the first time it happened (It gave me instructions when the problem first came around) I was only one that knew how to start the system.

          Perfect security. No one could touch my stuff.

        • #2950344

          Depends on ones definition of “Operating System.”

          by deepsand ·

          In reply to Not sure if the anology works

          The term as we know it today refers to control systems which are software base, residing either temporary in ROM as firmware, or temporarily in RAM. Such 1st came into existence with 3rd generation (integrated circuits) systems.

          However, 1st & 2nd generation machines (vacuum tube/relay & discrete semiconductor, respectively) had control systems as well; these were embedded in the hardware itself, and were thus changeable only via hardware modifications.

          Without a control system, by any name, a “computer” cannot “compute.” And, without a power plant, an automobile is not “self mobile.”

    • #2933521

      The interesting thing about all this is that ALL PCs used to be

      by deadly ernest ·

      In reply to Computers without software – why not?

      sold without an OS until about the mid 1990s. Prior to that you bought a computer and bought and OS then either got the shop tech to install it, or got a private tech to install it, or did it yourself.

      That stopped when MS did a series of deals with Dell, HP, Compaq, etc. to give them huge discounts if they put MS Windows on the systems before they shipped them from the factory. And that has brought us to where we are now. Dell and co pay MS about a quarter or less of what you pay retail for the same OS.

      Of course, without the OS on it, they can’t make the extra money from being paid to load all the spyware and trial ware as well.

      • #2959283

        Not so here.

        by deepsand ·

        In reply to The interesting thing about all this is that ALL PCs used to be

        Beginning with the TRS-80 and the Apple II, all boxes had the OS bundled of necessity, as it then resided in ROM.

        • #2959214

          I don’t know about the TRS-80 but the Apple II’s OS was basic ………….

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to Not so here.

          on ROM and CP/M was available to run WordStar, dBase, Visicalc and other miscellaneous programs. The IBM XT’s software was also on floppy but true blue IBMs had a set of 4 socketed proms with basica on them, and which at least, in the aerospace industry, were invariably hoiked out and burnt to eproms thus making our el cheapo clones fully IBM compatable. Another favourite stunt was to haul out the 8088 and replace it with a faster NEC V-20 or V-30

          [i][b]Dawg[/i][/b] ]:)

        • #2950349

          The ROMS contained a rudimentary OS, so that no FD was needed.

          by deepsand ·

          In reply to I don’t know about the TRS-80 but the Apple II’s OS was basic ………….

          The TRS-80 was more advanced, in that one could write and save assembly language programs to cassette tape.

        • #2959210

          Ah but those two were sold as hobbiest systems not PCs and

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Not so here.

          were you buying them new in the late 1980s and early 1990s?

          OK we’re both being pedantic.

          When the systems were being sold as IBM clones you usually bought them and software was optional at the time of purchase. You either installed it yourself or paid to have it put on. The few retail stores that sold systems also had tech sections that loaded the software you chose after they got it from the store room.

        • #2959203

          We’re talking late 70s – 77 for the Apple and 79-80 for the IBM

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to Ah but those two were sold as hobbiest systems not PCs and

          Clones arrived about 6 months after product introduction. I had an Apple clone before Apple won its court case and my IBM was a clone which appeared 3 months after the real thing. The first IBMs came standard without HDDs, that didn’t appear until the XT and even then it was an optional extra. Windows was next to non-existant version 1.8 or 1.9 and was pretty useless.You have to remember we’re referring to North America, when Australia got Apples and IBMs is not anything I’m aware of but it was probably like Europe which was about 3 – 6 months behind NA.

          [i][b]Dawg[/i][/b] ]:)

        • #2959199

          The IBM PC was introduced in 1981

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to We’re talking late 70s – 77 for the Apple and 79-80 for the IBM

          The original model 5150 came with one or two floppies or no drives at all. You could install a hard drive, but you also had to install a beefier power supply, making the total cost of installing a hard drive in the 5150 almost equal to the original cost of the unit itself.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC#Models

        • #2950346

          Names like Orange and Tangerine come to mind.

          by deepsand ·

          In reply to We’re talking late 70s – 77 for the Apple and 79-80 for the IBM

          Apple II clones, that is.

        • #2950347

          Not true.

          by deepsand ·

          In reply to Ah but those two were sold as hobbiest systems not PCs and

          Both were successfully marketed widely to various markets, including education and business, with the former buying both heavily.

    • #2959260

      Because you can’t install trial crapware

      by seanferd ·

      In reply to Computers without software – why not?

      for advertising purposes, without an OS.

    • #2959194

      To get the bulk deals from MS

      by the scummy one ·

      In reply to Computers without software – why not?

      they have to provide an OS with every computer. That is why OEM’s get Windows for dirt cheap (to compared to the rest of us).

      However, not all computers need to be Windows, they just need an OS. Most manufacturers want dont want to support other OS’s, so they do not give an option. The result — Vista for (almost)All

    • #2959188

      My computer was sold without an OS (2003)

      by slayer_ ·

      In reply to Computers without software – why not?

      Was awkward too, cause all I had was win 98, and only way I could install that was with floppy, and system didn’t come with floppy drive.

      Also, if they had, say installed XP on the system, they would have found out long before I had to, that the hardware was crap. (long story for another day)

      • #2959174

        Was this econd hand or new – was it from a reputable

        by deadly ernest ·

        In reply to My computer was sold without an OS (2003)

        vendor or not?

        A lot of second hand systems are sold without and OS because some people believe the MS EULA is legally binding.

        • #2950447

          Was new and was supposed to be reputable

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to Was this econd hand or new – was it from a reputable

          Turns out, it was neither.

          If any Manitobans read this.

          Never buy from CDC, they are crooks.

          About the only part of that PC that still works is the HDD (still is my C drive). Must have been an accident to give me a working piece of hardware.

          Ah shit, now I wanna give a listing.

          Ok here it is.
          a 400watt PSU, charged me 200 bucks, I looked it up online, its a $20!!! PSU with the worst reviews ever, said to roughly actually produce about 150watts.

          motherboard, completely wrecked, the BIOS did not understand a P4 processor and therefore gave it short voltage. There was a BIOS upgrade, but when you tried to run it, it would say it was already that version, try to downgrade it, same error, tell it to upgrade anyways, it would fail saying it can’t read the memory.

          CD drive, burner died in a month.

          Case, almost every light and wire broke in the case within 3 months.

          Sound, Onboard sound stopped working about a year after I got it.

          Video, first video card popped after a year, probably from PSU. Popped 3 more video cards after that.

          Frankly,l its amazing any of the hardware survived, including the CPU, eventually when I finally got XP, an XP error pointed to the CPU having the wrong voltage, which lead down to a bad mobo, after replacing mobo, that same CPU just screamed (2.6ghz P4 Circa 2003).

          Like I said, only thing still original in this machine is the HDD and the case.

          $1,200 for that piece of shit.

          I have now rebuilt the entire machine for 400 bucks and it kicks ass :).

        • #2950351

          I’ve not heard of the mob you mention, but not being

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Was new and was supposed to be reputable

          from your area, that’s understandable. I’ve always argued you’re better off to select your own system form components and build it from scratch or have a tech you know build it from scratch.

        • #2950341

          Computer Distributors of Canada, as opposed to …

          by deepsand ·

          In reply to I’ve not heard of the mob you mention, but not being

          CDC Corp. or its CDC Software operating unit, the latter of which is well known and long ago established.

    • #2959120

      Hardware support problems

      by gunars.lodzins ·

      In reply to Computers without software – why not?

      Imagine “advanced” user who thinks he can install some linux distro on the hardware and thus save some $. But in reality – fails. Believe me – tehre are plenty of them.
      Now imagine manufacturers helldesk, that gets hundreds of calls like “Bluetooth (or any other hardware) is not working!” “What OS are you running” “Eeee….Linux….”
      Impossible!
      Rather install someOS on the hardware, and create support manuals for helldesk. You’re running other hardware? Sorry not our support problem…

      • #2959113

        Hardware support problems are an artificial creation

        by deadly ernest ·

        In reply to Hardware support problems

        caused by MS pressuring hardware makers to make things to be ‘out of the box’ compatible with certain versions of Windows instead of the industry standard compatibility. Some have never gone the MS way and don’t need drivers for use with Linux while more are going the standard way and writing MS Windows drivers instead of building MS compatible hardware.

        • #2959109

          “Industry standard compatibility”

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Hardware support problems are an artificial creation

          “…MS pressuring hardware makers to make things … compatible with … Windows instead of the industry standard compatibility.”

          Are there industry standards hardware / OS compatibility? I must have missed those. Who sets them?

          When an OS runs on over 75% of desktops, isn’t it a de facto standard?

        • #2959107

          There’s a whole bunch of international bodies that do set

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to “Industry standard compatibility”

          them. I first came across them back in the 1970s when they were called the CCITT. Whenever you see something like ISO xxxxx it’s one. TCP, IP, USB, Firewire are all as per industry standards. Here’s a wiki page with some basics and some good links. In another thread I’ve posted several relevant links but can’t be bothered finding them all again.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standards_Organisation

        • #2959101

          TR Search got you down???

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to There’s a whole bunch of international bodies that do set

          Try Vista!
          After using the advanced search for files in Vista, no other search will get you down again! In fact, if you have problems with other search engines after Vista, please turn off your computer.

          Here’s what you get
          The Vista GUI — Aero
          Annoying popups
          annoying searches
          annoying filesystem
          new OS protected temp files
          new and improved rape you pricing
          and even an all new designed Red screen of death!

        • #2959092

          Arggh, Scummy, we’re in real trouble

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to TR Search got you down???

          as we agree on something. Watch out the earth’s about to change axis or something.

        • #2959100

          Yeah, but…

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to There’s a whole bunch of international bodies that do set

          I’m familiar with the organizations mentioned, but do those standards specify anything about operating system compatibility? I agree hardware vendors should provide a working driver, but there’s nothing that says they have to provide them for all OS.

          If I was a hardware vendor and had to choose between Windows compliance for profit or compliance to a unenforced standard at a loss, I know which way I’d jump.

        • #2959090

          In goes back to stadnards and changes made in the

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Yeah, but…

          late 1980s / early 1990s. When you loaded hardware in the old XT systems you had to enter the details of of the disc drives etc so the BIOS could know what to look for. Eventually the standards body drought out a list of standard commands for the basic hardware and insisted on extra components on the hardware. That’s when they started to add those nice little circuit cards to the hard drives – to handle that side of part of the needs.

          One aspect was some of the hardware started telling the OS about itself and lead to self identifying. the other was the basic commands were to be uniform for all hardware and OS makers to use. This lead to what’s called Plug-n-Play. A true P-n-P item just plugged in and worked on any OS. This happened for a little while. Then MS went to ‘Windows Compatible’ and walked away from the standards. They had the economic might to push a few companies around and did so.

          They tried the same thing with a few of the other standards and lost with regards to network protocols and things like USB and Firewire. But they managed to buy acceptance for their version of XHTML as an approved standard. The MS Office documents are outside the standards too.

          Browsers and all software used in creating web pages and web sites are supposed to be totally platform independent to meet the standards, the reality is there are variations in the browsers, especially IE, which is why you see so many problems with it.

          The industry bodies do NOT have any real teeth to bring to bear when people refuse to follow the standards, so MS just ignores them.

        • #2950358

          Trouble with Microsofts “Standards”

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to “Industry standard compatibility”

          They are not real standards, ie ANSI ISO DIN etc, because they are closed and can change whenever Microsoft feels the need to change them to gain leverage in the marketplace. Real standards are equally available to all and contolled by independent bodies. Lack of standards in IT is what keeps the customer shafted by a monopoly and mediocre products.

        • #2950350

          There are standards in IT, many hundreds of them,

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Trouble with Microsofts “Standards”

          the problem is some big players like MS and Dell totally ignore them.

    • #2959073

      Sure you can

      by butkus ·

      In reply to Computers without software – why not?

      Tiger Direct
      New Egg
      Either will provide you with everything including a driver CD.
      They have been doing that for years.

    • #2959051

      You always have a choice

      by icemanco ·

      In reply to Computers without software – why not?

      I ran a small custom computer company for over 20 years, and we always gave our customers a choice of which OS to pre-load, if any. I always split out the cost of the OS so that folks knew what they were paying for. That eliminated all the “I got Windows for free” thinking. We also encouraged customers to “build their own systems” with free workshops to show them how. You’d be amazed at how many customers are willing to give Linux a try once they know how much it costs to purchase MS products. And yes, our computer systems WERE more expensive that name brand systems, but the quality and the local service more than made up the difference.

    • #2950460

      The reason is

      by no user ·

      In reply to Computers without software – why not?

      do to how the manufacturer has to buy license. They typically have to purchase a year in advance all the license that they need for the following year. The deal is they must make a calculated guess at how many license they will need for next year. If they buy more then they need they eat the cost and if they buy less they go to the back of the line and wait to see if they can get volume license for a manufacturer which is dependent on Microsoft having any left and of course they would be at a higher price. So no doubt the manufactures push them on customers because they over order just to prevent going back begging for more. In order to prevent fraud and piracy they are not allowed to make more PC’s then they can prove that they sold license but that would include all license.

      This does stem from an anti-trust/piracy law from either the late 80’s or very early 90’s which allowed Microsoft to not only control the market like the above but also forces manufactures to disclose exactly how many PC’s they made to prove they were not being a contributer to fraud and piracy.

      At least that is how I recall the situation happening.

    • #2950343

      Consumers want an [i]appliance[/i], not …

      by deepsand ·

      In reply to Computers without software – why not?

      a bunch of parts and instructions on how to assemble them into a working appliance.

      There is only so much DIY work that most consumers are both able and willing to do.

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