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Guns can protect or kill

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Guns can protect or kill

chdchan
With gunfire weapons, one can protect or kill. The case of Colorado shooting is not telling Americans to quench owning weapons, but on the contrary urging them to buy more.

The U.S. is a country respecting freedom. While the police and soldiers have guns, so do the general public. With freedom in American minds, privacy is also secured by Law, hence one can kill an intruder to one's premises. The reasons behind this practice are: Americans are above-par wealthy and they need some extra security against crime (also reflected in their possession of most nuclear missiles in the world); Americans are relatively selfish and self-protecting (people are putting security of oneself above public safety by advocating gun possession, plus developing nuclear weaponry whilst disallowing poorer countries to follow suit); Americans think they are so morally superior that most people can refrain themselves from gun abuse.

In fact, if some would like to prevent crime with guns, they should first think about how easily guns can cause crime. For the first time in history, after many gun-related crimes, people from the rest of the world should become hesitating when considering emigration or traveling to the U.S. and other gun-approving countries. As Chinese ourselves, we applaud for our own better-off personal safety without undiscriminated gun possession. When guns are publicized for eliminating their inner lack of security, Americans are haunted with even greater homicidal fears.
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    Deadly Ernest

    to invade and overrun, or keep under control if you do surprise them. That's one of the reasons why the first thing a dictator does is to disarm the general public.

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    chdchan

    I agree, of Chinese (us) some are bandits, more violent, and in general of lower moral standard that should be more cautiously disapproved of carrying guns.

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    Slayer_

    If they had a gun and were in that theatre, they could have stopped the shooter.

    But that internet cafe with the old man shooting those robbers. That's the way to do it.

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    Deadly Ernest

    verified before being posted. One I love from some years back was about a criminal who walked into a popular store and pulled out a gun in an attempt to rob it. He was very surprised when over thirty people pulled out their own guns and pointed them at him - he gave up real quick.

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    CharlieSpencer

    I suspect that few had a direct view of the shooter. Had more than two or three in the audience been armed, they might have mistakenly fired on each other. If you hear shots and you can only see one person shooting, you aim at him assuming he's the original assailant, overlooking the possibility that he's a fellow defender. This becomes even more likely in a crowded, dark theater in the middle of one of the movie's battles, with screaming people constantly altering the sight lines. Fortunately, many other gun owners I've heard from say they probably would not have fired due to a lack of verifiable target. As the number of owners goes up, the number of irresponsible ones does too.

    That's also my response to the original poster's position that we're better off if more people are armed. At what point do those attempting to defend everyone else become a danger to each other?

    As to Americans needing guns because we're rich, more crimes are committed against the poor, by the poor, than against those who are better off.

    I find it ludicrous to be lectured on safety by someone from a country that routinely imprisons others for the ghastly crime of disagreeing with it. Now there's a group of people that need firearms. See Ernest's 'One point...' above.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    You know we need Massive Mags for Military Rifles.

    Doesn't matter that a Solder only gets a few shots off before having to change Mags we who are not as well trained need Mags with 1,000 times the ammo just so that we may get one off in the right direction.

    From my understanding of that Movie Theater there was Tear Gas used first before the Gun person with a Gas Mask walked in shooting with a 100 Round Mag. How he only killed 12 and wounded 58 with such a high powered Rifle is what needs to be address here.

    The weapon was obviously faulty as it didn't shoot straight. Things should have been so much worse that what actually happened. Then again I suppose a Midnight Showing also meant small numbers of patrons attending so that there was more space between them making it harder to hit them through all that smoke.

    What the **** do you need Assault Rifles for in the first place. After all they where designed and built to do just one thing and that isn't any form of Hunting. Then build 100 Round Mag's for them when they where never designed to carry that much Ammo you have to wonder who these fools are. And that was just one of the 4 weapons that this guy was supposed to have. [/sarcasm]

    Col

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    TheChas

    Col,

    I don't know how it is down under, but here in the US, midnight showings for the opening of a major movie are big events and often sold out to full capacity in advance.

    What saved lives was a combination of the shooters lack of practice (training) and the fact that the weapon jammed.

    What has not been released was a count of how many rounds were still in the 100 round magazine. Or, even which of the weapons scored the most hits. (What a macabre line of thought.)

    As many states have relaxed the rules to get a concealed carry permit, I am more concerned about going out in public than I was when one had to show cause to get a CCW permit.

    Part of my thoughts are if you need to carry a gun to go to the grocery store, you are paranoid and need help. The second part of that thought is why would you go into a situation where there is a risk that you would need a gun for protection. The third part of this thought is that if we as a country have allowed our society to crumble so much that there is risk to life and limb to go to the grocery store, we would be much better off spending money to improve our neighborhoods rather than buy guns and ammo.

    On the same thought path, I know of no statistical evidence that either an armed citizenry or harsh crime penalties (including the death penalty) reduce crime.

    Chas

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    No info here that it was a Opening just a Midnight Showing.

    If anything that makes the low Body Count even worse and that is the really sad thing here that we can think that way. Maybe I need help as when I first heard the News Reports I thought this is going to be really nasty and sounds like a Higher Body Count that what happened in Norway last year.

    I must be hanging around with the wrong people to think like that, way too many Judges, Queens Councils and the like make me think of the worst that can happen rather than anything else. Though I can not help but think of a phrase I heard in a Movie somewhere that goes something like this "Just because you are Paranoid doesn't mean that someone isn't out to get you."

    On the same thought path, I know of no statistical evidence that either an armed citizenry or harsh crime penalties (including the death penalty) reduce crime.

    Not really supposed to cut down Crime as a Judge here told me a while ago. It's more about making the Citizens feel that when someone does something nasty they mistakenly believe that the Purp will be hunted down and punished. It's most defiantly nothing to do with Law & Order but only to make the Public feel better about what is going on.

    Col

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    CharlieSpencer

    If I thought I needed to be armed to go somewhere, I wouldn't go there. The 'Stand your ground' crowd might say that I'm knuckling under, or that I'm letting fear dictate my actions. I don't see it as any different from not seeing how close I can drive to the edge of the cliff.

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    CharlieSpencer

    And I don't know what I said to start HAL's magazine comments. I too question the need for assault rifles. The US National Rifle Association takes a 'slippery slope' approach to firearm regulations. They daren't let any legislation pass that increases firearm regulation, no matter how slightly, because they claim it will just be the first of many.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    The Guy in Question supposedly had a 100 Round Mag on an Assault Rifle.

    Besides destroying the Barrel putting that many rounds through the thing so quickly I see no need for a weapon like that.

    It was designed to only do 1 thing and I have yet to run across Members of the Public who need something like that. What's even more concerning is if the Military don't need Magazines like that why would anyone else.

    Of course the above post was dripping with Sarcasm not so much to you but to the OP. I can just imagine the mess that would have been made if others in that place returned fire. While I don't have anything to do with Firearms now I do have a mate who is a army surgeon and I do know the damage that weapons like that do, do.

    Col

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    Slayer_

    If you miss the first time, you have 99 more tries.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    You wouldn't find anything more than Parts of Feathers.

    Hit a chicken with something like that and it really would be Blown Away. :^0

    Col

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    Slayer_

    Could always try one of those 1300fps pellet guns I saw at Cabellas.


    I couldn't even pump the damn thing.

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    CharlieSpencer

    when one of these whack-jobs leaves behind a note thanking the Founding Fathers and the NRA for making his assault possible.

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    Deadly Ernest

    full auto weapon meant you could get your full bag of dead bunnies in the first minute or so of shooting at the hillside that was covered with rabbit. It's an odd feeling to fire a bolt action rifle at a rabbit on the hillside, and as you watch him drop dead you spot another tow or three hundred break cover and head off in the other direction at high speed. With a rifle like that i could get a lot more before they get out of sight again.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    I believe that a Large Caliber Weapon would be counter productive.

    I have a friend with a 50MM Machine Gun on his wall along with quite a few rounds in a belt with Tracer every third round then a Amour Piecing and lastly a straight shell.

    A weapon like that wouldn't get you a bag full of Bunnies it would **** the hill away. I just don't see the need for Semi Automatic Large Caliber Fire Arms and that 50mm is a small cannon not a machine gun no matter what it's called.

    The scary thing is that is a Legal Weapon here under the current Laws.

    In your analogy a Auto Large Caliber isn't warranted or even desirable it would probably be even better to be firing Shot rather than single Projectiles in a case like that and it most certainly would give you more Bunny per head to eat rather than blowing most of the bunny away and spreading it out over a large area and other bunnies hopping away at a great rate of Knots. Besides here the last time I went bush with the various Biological attacks on the bunnies they are not something I would be eating, snake looks a lot safer and tastier to me.

    Col

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    CharlieSpencer

    The dark joke in the Army is that the US policy says the .50 cal should not be used against personnel, only aimed at enemy equipment. Of course, the definition of equipment can be stretched to include belt buckles, canteens, ponchos, etc.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    Assault Rifles are neither Concealable or necessary for the general population to own.

    I very much doubt that you could walk down a street with a AK47/M16 slung over your shoulder and not attract attention of at the very least the Law Enforcement who would be asking you what the **** you thought you where doing. Of course the person who hides behind a concealable pistol could always pull it out and shoot you dead and say that you where scaring them and that they where in fear of their lives so they did what was necessary to protect them self.

    Wouldn't really matter though as you would still be dead.

    I do tend to agree that Weapons do not kill people, people kill people but honestly have you looked at some of the people lately? Do you honestly trust them with something that could kill you if you did something that they where worried about? He was walking down the street invading my space That is more than enough reason for some people to react. We make people get a license to drive a car for a very good reason cars can kill. Firearms are no better and some need to be restricted because they where only designed to do a single function which is not a function that the Masses should have access to or for that matter require.

    Col

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    Deadly Ernest

    If I'd been allowed to keep my Remington 870 Brushmaster 12 gauge shotgun, or my father's Browning semi-automatic .22 poacher's rifle I can save a lot on food by shooting rabbits on the local farms and making a lot of rabbit stew. But, nooo, thanks to a push by certain elements in our society all the law abiding people have been disarmed and only the criminals now have guns. The changes to the laws also meant that it costs them nearly as much to buy a military MP5 with folding stock as it does for a semi-automatic .22, so the crims now buy military weapons when they can - the cost and prison time for having them is now the same.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    Was an Assault Rifle. I don't have any issue with Rifles as such but I do have a very big issue with things like AK47/M16 's in the hands of the public.

    I used to have to carry a pistol many years ago because the Law said I had to and other than the routine certification I never needed to fire it. Of course I also had a Uncle who had a sheep farm way out west near Hundgeon and you never left the Farm House without caring a 303 because the Pigs are nasty animals which you really do not want to run into.

    On the other hand I've seen idiots who have gone onto my uncles land shooting and had to scrape them up from the idiot things that they have done to themselves. The worst one was some guy pulling a 12 Gage under a fence after he climbed through and killing himself. A very expensive rifle and he was supposedly shooting pigs. What the **** Duck Shot is going to do to a pig other than upset it is way beyond my merge understanding but then again what would I know?

    About 5 years latter we had to go out and get a guy out of a tree who had shot a pig with another 12 Gage and then climbed the tree to escape the ****ed Off Pig. He then dropped the Double Barrel and blew one of his feet off. But people are not stupid and they all know how to handle a firearm.

    Personally those idiots who where involved in the Gun Buyback made me crazy. The entire thing was a disaster with the Government paying for Antiaircraft Guns well cannons which are neither transportable or a real treat to anyone. My cousin had a 400 year old Flint Lock Pistol and as he's a QC's he was not allowed to keep that. Seems that he's not Trustworthy enough and may have been a danger to Life and Property.

    I organized that going to a Collector where it was looked after and not destroyed. They also crushed quite a few WW1 German Machine Guns which could have very easily come off a Red Triplane that crashed and was stripped by Aussies and to me that was a crime.

    On the flip side I knew a guy who had a small lathe and he turned up M16 Barrels out of Mild Steal and got $50.00 per Barrel under that scheme. He had a roaring trade going cost him about $15.00 per barrel and the Government paid him $50.00. It didn't matter that the things where completely impossible to put a single round through the Government just paid for as many as he could make. But they didn't waste any money at all after all we have a Polly telling us that his Government was Perfect. They could waste massive amounts of money on that scheme and then bitterly complain that the Free Enterprise suppliers couldn't fit Pink Bats in peoples ceilings properly or legally. :^0

    Col

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    Deadly Ernest

    standard weapons (and I mean modern military) that were fully automatic. Old bolt actions like the Lee-Enfields, and semi-automatic (ie one trigger pull one shot) civilian calibre weapons like shotguns and .22 should never have banned - with an exception for hand guns or rifles like the AR7 that can be easily converted to a handgun size.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    The problem is that some people use one to justify the other on both sides of the argument.

    The reason why that Flint Lock was not possible to be kept by it's owner who had it passed down from his father was because it could be used to Rob a Bank.

    What type of Idiot would even consider firing it is way beyond my meager comprehension but to actually say something as idiot as that with a straight face made me wild. Personally I would not consider attempting to fire something like that with in locked in a vice and a string tied to the trigger with myself standing a long way away, let alone taking such a valuable piece anywhere but a exhibition.

    I still have swords here and I had some petty bureaucrat come visit me one day when I was sitting down cleaning one, the silly woman ran away screaming something about being attacked and this is while I was behind a locked security screen sitting down with the blade across my legs and rubbing polish onto the blade. The dam thing is a Ceremonial Sword as worn by the current Military while on Parade. I just can not comprehend how some people think let alone stay alive.

    Col

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    Charles Bundy

    An AR-15 is a dandy varmint rifle. Of course I live in the country where I sometimes need to reach out and whack something at distance in the field. You really can't sneak up close on ye olde coyote... Thus I do believe pointing at a rifle and saying it's only good for military purposes is a tad short sighted. Unless you would rather let Wile make off with your steak?

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    A Bolt Action 303 would do the same thing and not destroy Barrels by pumping so many rounds down a overheating barrel. A AR15 is Air Cooled and doesn't have anywhere near enough Metal in the Barrel for Rapid Fire work for long term use.

    In Farms here you need Rifles for self protection from the Imported Pests like Pigs I can use a Bolt Action Rifle and get 3 or 4 rounds into a charging pig if necessary but the reality is that 1 is more than enough.

    I would however say that a AR15 is too small a Caliber for bigger problem Varmint's here though and emptying a entire Mag into a big Pig charging because you have got too close to their babies is likely to make it madder not stop it.

    Also if you need more than 2 rounds to stop a charging Pig you shouldn't have a rifle to start off with. You are a danger to yourself more than anything else.

    Besides Semi's waste shells. They are harder to find after being used so you can reload that night.

    Col

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    Charles Bundy

    fixation? My little Ruger 22 is also "semi-automatic" which allows me to squeeze the trigger two or three times to nail a groundhog moving low and in a serpentine fashion. I can't do that with my father's old bolt action .22 or your 303 example :)

    I like the AR-15 because it too is a .22 caliber which means lower cost for ammo and extra oomph to get out to 1000 feet. Never seen the problems you describe with cooling. I've never used it on anything larger than 40 pounds but we don't have wild pigs around here. Just some happy hogs that get out, push over small cars and rummage through the garden sometimes!

    Addendum: Not that I'm accurate at 1000 feet, mind you, but it does help with wind shear/drop out to that distance! :)

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    It's with the Large Caliber Fire Arms that are available.

    A semi 22 is a nice little fire arm that can be useful in the right hands at the right time, however I've seen way too many people who think that because they have a firearm they can do what they want from the bit of using a 12 Gage for Pigs I mentioned elsewhere here to a guy I ran across on my uncles property who was using a 22 for Roos. Not the wallabies but the big roos who he was attempting to shot at too long a distance through an overly powerful scope that he had had fitted to the rifle. He insisted that as he could see the roos he could shoot them but all he managed to do was antagonize them and I had to go around cleaning up after him.

    The last time I was on that property I was shooting sheep at the height of a drought where they where too expensive to move, not worth selling and there was no food or water for them so every day we would go out shoot several thousand sheep and go back to the homestead at night reload the spent shells to do the same thing the next day. We used Semi 22's for that but I've seen way too many people who just because they have a fire arm think that it will do anything.

    A guy at a range the last time I was there had a 20 Gage and 22 Under and Over Arraignment which was a nice weapon but the 50 X Scope on it to me at least seemed pointless. With the 20 Gage you just sort of point in in the general direction of what you want to hit and pull the trigger so the scope wasn't necessary and the 22 bit couldn't handle the range of the scope it was attached to. It was for something with much more range.

    However again I'll say it I'm more concerned about the people I see who own Fire Arms than the actual Weapons themselves.

    Col

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    hleveque

    robbery or **** or any type of criminal behavior, I'd say that the heightened concern is a plus.

    A lot of crime has no doubt been prevented because the criminal didn't want *anybody* shooting at him...for all he knows, they are expert.

    Nothing wrong with gun safety courses either....

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    chdchan

    So if explosives do not kill, sleep beside them.
    If a lion doesn't have sharp fangs and claws, we don't have to be afraid of it. That's the point I hold for general public should not possess guns. But many the above posters would still like to stop crime with guns by not considering a gunfight could result in even higher toll of lives.

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    Deadly Ernest

    each year by knives than they are by guns. With your logic no one should ever have a knife, yet they have there place in daily use in most societies, so do guns. However, there is a difference between civilian level weapons and military level and I see no need for civilians to have military weapons unless they are military reservists and they have the weapon assigned to them in case of need, as happens in some European countries.

    There is no such thing as a deadly weapon, but there are deadly people. No weapon has ever decided, of its own accord, to jump up and kill people, but people have and have even killed people with no more than their bare hands.

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    lammwa

    ...could have been saved if those guns had been knives? Against a knife you "have a chance" but against a gun you have none! If we went back to knife vs. knife it would have the same preventive affect as everyone arming themselves with guns AND save hundreds of lives per year! Guns DO kill as without them the killing part becomes much more "challenging"...

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    Deadly Ernest

    taking down someone with a gun. There have also been cases of people going amok with a knife doing a lot more damage (ie killing and wounding people) than some with a gun. It all comes down to individuals involved and how they behave. I've never come across a single case of a gun, or a knife, hurting or killing someone where a person has not been involved in it at all; in some cases the person was stupid and left a loaded gun set to fire where it could fall, others they held it and fired or something similar to either.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    I have what's the problem? Just don't have Electric Detonators out in the open and use a Mobile Phone that's not overly safe.

    If a lion doesn't have sharp fangs and claws, we don't have to be afraid of it.

    It's a Wild Animal you need to treat all Wild Animals with Caution. For instance would you go an Cuddle a Panda that you ran across in the Bush?

    Here in AU we have Koala's a Cute Animal but you run across one in the Wild you should avoid it like the Plague they can Kill though not as fast as a Lion.

    That's the point I hold for general public should not possess guns.

    I disagree Guns have never hurt a single person it's people who kill other people, you don't need a Gun to do that something as simple as a Ball Point Pen driven in between the Third & Fourth Rib will kill you faster than any Firearm, and who would be worried about someone walking towards them with a Ball Point Pen?

    However if by Gun you mean Assault Rifle or other Military Grade Fire Arm that is a different story. I see no need for anyone outside the Army and Military Collectors to have things like that. Though here the QLD Police have a Museum and in it there is Field Marshals Rommel's Luger that is a lovely weapon and so different from every Luger in the building.

    But many the above posters would still like to stop crime with guns by not considering a gunfight could result in even higher toll of lives.

    Strangely enough I do agree with you on that one but again it's people who cause the problems. Many years ago I used to visit a Sheep Property and I had to go out and find a corpse then secure it and call the police in to investigate why this person shot them self accidentally. Apparently you would never understand that you do not crawl under a fence then pull a Shotgun through after you by the barrel with the safety Off as it might go BANG and kill you.

    The Guns as you like to call them are simply not an issue it's the people who are holding them when they go BANG that are the real problem. I don't own a Firearm now days I don't actually like them all that much but I'm by no means scared of them, they are a Tool nothing more nothing less. No different to a 24 inch Number 1 Phillips Screwdriver it's a tool necessary for a job but it can also be used as a Lethal Weapon if the person holding it has a mind to do so.

    And if I had to go out on another Sheep Farm tomorrow and do something in a paddock I wouldn't hesitate to grab a Rifle to protect myself from being attacked by a pig. Or a cousin who is into Pistol Shooting, Target Competition was surprised when I could get a perfect score the first time I ever handled the weapon that he wanted me to shoot. He was driving me nuts to go out with him to the Range and when I finally relented he didn't believe me that I had never touched a similar weapon previously. OK he realized that I knew a little about Pistols by the way that I handled it but other than the most obvious things like asking where what the different Safety things where and how they worked. I needed to familiarize myself with the tool, unfortunately way too many people when they get any Firearm in their hands think that they are 10 foot tall and bullet proof and are Dangerous to both themselves and those around them.

    Col

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    Slayer_

    I had never realized just how many guns were in my house (back when I was living with my folks). My father was sick of the gun registration law, and when a cop showed up, he let him take his guns.
    From an outside observer it looked pretty bad, this cop making several trips into the house grabbing hand fulls of rifles, pistols, etc. Boxes and boxes of ammunition. Old world war guns, everything. I seriously didn't know he had that many guns. Apparently all we have left are 3 rifles, and a pellet gun.

    Ah good times...

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    As a Sewing Machine Mechanic. It was a new dealer and I was doing what they called a Service Clinic there to get them known.

    Anyway the first night the Bed was really uncomfortable but I didn't think much of it till the next night. I just had to have a look see why it didn't sink and was so uncomfortable. Only about 50 Exemplary 303's stuffed under it all the way up till you could fit no more.

    Granted the Bolts where out and they where perfectly safe but they had more Rifles that I have ever seen outside an Amory lying all around that house.

    It was a working Sheep Farm that Borders a National Park that had a Pig Infestation. The National Park had trained their Kangaroos to jump the fence to feed and then when anyone came they just decamped back to the National Park where they where protected. The Pigs never fully understood the Roos as they where fair game either side of the fence.

    Also when you walked out the door any door you where asked did you want a Rifle and they had 10 or so beside each door along with a pile of Mags and open bowls of bullets. You just grabbed a rifle, a mag or 2 and a handful of Bullets and walked away. They did have some 22 there as well but when I was told that they had Pigs I didn't bother looking at anything that small. It was quite funny actually they asked did I want a Rifle and when I said no it's not necessary that was fine but 200 yards further down just as we where getting into the car I was warned to steer clear of the pigs. I just said you have Pigs here I'll have a Rifle.

    Col

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    Charles Bundy

    I have tried explaining to my co-workers that those "cute teddy bears" are not to be trifled with and they think I'm kidding!

    It sounds like we have different varmint problems due to geography thus requiring different firing solutions!

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    I scrapped up a Wildlife Ranger who was tasked with removing Koala's from a region that was going to be flooded by a new dam. The guy shook a Wild Koala out of a tree and it caught him with it's hind legs in his shoulders it's front legs in his legs and it's mouth biting his "Family Jewels" The Claws dug in quite deeply down to the bone and just to make sure that the Varmint had the finial say it peeded on him as well into all the open wounds.

    Three hours latter when we got to the Hospital it took the Quacks a couple of hours to stitch the wounds up and then 3 weeks in the Hospital with constant Antibiotic Drips to kill the infection.

    It always amazes me just how many people think that they are Cuddly and shouldn't be treated as a wild animal. Of course it was breeding season so it was probably not the best time to make the "Forced Move." :^0

    Col

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    Charles Bundy

    crying and laughing. And guilt over the laughing. That sounds like the time I saw a Koala drop from a tree like an avenging angel on a biologist. Assuming avenging angels scream hideously as they unleash their 3 inch razor like claws. It was an eye opener alright. I don't even know if it was breeding season or just constipation on the little devil's part!

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    He has a great story to tell when he's drinking about the time he was attacked by one of those Cuddly Animals.

    Of course 20 + years to contemplate the stupidity of his superiors and the way that they said it was easy to do makes all things sound funny. I still fully remember that day as the little monster didn't want to let go no matter what was done to it. Then when he did he promptly climbed the same tree and sat looking with a smug look at what was going on below.

    After that it was a standing joke to look out for Drop Bears cus they hurt. :^0

    Col

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    Charles Bundy

    Sleeping beside explosives? Playing with wild animals? Stupid. You do realize these are all decisions people would make, hence affirming that people kill. Doubt all you like but if a nutball case wants to kill it will happen no matter what methods are ready at hand.

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    hleveque

    private gun ownership is specifically allowed by the Constitution and govt infringement of same is specifically disallowed.

    We are not punishing criminals to the max, far from it. Until we do that further philosophical discussion is silly.

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    hleveque

    1. The right to own and use private firearms is in the Constitution, and in our history since at least the early 1600's. The answer to criminals is not to keep legit citizens from owning guns.

    2. An "assault" rifle normally has selective fire, to select one shot per trigger pull or unlimited shots per trigger pull. No traditional hunting rifle has unlimited shots per trigger pull.

    3. The AR-15 fires once per trigger pull, therefore does not qualify as an assault rifle.

    4. Rifles which fire once per trigger pull are called semi-automatic. Rifles which fire unlimited times per trigger pull are called automatics.

    5. A semi-automatic rifle is legal to own, and your bona fides are checked with the govt before you can purchase it. An automatic rifle is legal to own but requires a special license and a more detailed personal investigation before you can buy it.

    6. A clip is just a reservoir of unfired ammo. When you fire once, the empty is ejected and a fresh round is moved from the clip to the rifle. Why would you need it? For additional shots at a fleeing deer, to make it easy to concentrate during target practice, or to avoid having to reload often.

    7. These days it seems all rifles are referred to as assault weapons. This is by people and politicians who are ignorant. The AK-47 has selective fire, and is an assault weapon. Ditto for the M16. But the elderly Garand is semi-automatic. All have clips. The key should be which are automatic fire, like a machine gun.

    8. The Aurora movie massacre may have ended differently if a couple of gents in the audience stood up with their handguns as soon as that fool started shooting. Some of the dead may have had a second chance.

    9. I suggest we impose maximum penalties for willful killings with a gun. After that Aurora movie jerk is tried and convicted, take him out back and shoot him. Each victim or victim's family gets an empty shell casing. That will take a 70 round clip.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    The Aurora movie massacre may have ended differently if a couple of gents in the audience stood up with their handguns as soon as that fool started shooting. Some of the dead may have had a second chance.

    With a smoke filled room and watering eyes I'm sure it would have been completely different. Instead of the few killed & Injured there would have been a lot more and many of the what we will call "Innocents" would be on trial for shooting other patrons of that theater. The Police would have seized every Firearm even the ones not discharged and done Ballistic Tests on them to see where their Projectiles went. Of course if you hit anyone but the Primary Shooter you're in for a world of Hurt and very long Legal Battle not to mention the loss of any other Fire Arms you may have and very likely a Criminal Record.

    The reality most people who have Fire Arms do not know how to use them safely and most certainly are not trained to know what to do in anything but a Great Environment where they have a clear line of sight.

    Throw them into a darkened Picture Theater with lots of Fire Arms going off on the screen and then toss in a Tear Gas Grenade and they are effectively blinded to all but the closest Barrel Flash who in that case is just as likely to be another Patron Returning Fire. Don't worry about the running masses of people trying to get out of the road read that as "Line of Fire" you have the Perfect Recipe for a Disaster.

    I've seen way too many Stupid People with Fire Arms who simply should never have been allowed to own a Fire Arm in the first place let alone stick any Ammunition into it to begin with. Way too many people think that they are 10 Foot Tall & Bullet Proof when they have a Fire Arm in their Hot Sweaty Hands and act accordingly, then wonder why they shoot themselves with their own weapons.

    Look at Libya recently a Media Crew was interviewing a group of Liberation Fighters who thought that they came under fire and returned fire for 20 minutes only to find out it was another of their party who was shooting into the Air Celebrating another Dangerious Stupid thing to do. Or the Captured Jet Fighter which was going to be used by the Insurgents? which was shot down less than 2 minutes into it's first flight by the pilot's Allies because we don't have any aircraft so it's fair game.

    A Fire Arm in Undisciplined Hands is just as dangerous as anything else that a Fool is allowed to use, it can Mame and Kill anyone and very rarely does what was intended.

    Col

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    Charles Bundy

    Absolves you of criminal prosecution so long as you are not the initiator of the conflict. After the first shot from Holmes, you are considered in defense of your person and/or third parties and justified in the use of lethal force.

    Civil is another matter and you are correct that a defender could certainly be tried by a victim or their family for harm. Of course you can be sued for just walking down the street here in America, so I'll take the chance on being prepared and hopefully alive to be sued.

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    Deadly Ernest

    "Don't ever pull your firearm unless you really have to use it. If you do have to shoot, shoot to kill as the case in the Coroner's Court is a damn sight easier to deal with than in a civil court."

    I always felt that was damn good advice.

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    Charles Bundy

    The only thing I can think of that might give me some pause in the theatre situation is backstop. I don't like pulling the trigger when you don't know what's behind the wall. But if he keeps shooting there really isn't much choice.

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    Bruce Epper

    Dickhead left the theater & returned not only with the weapons & ammo but also wearing body armor. Even if anyone else in the theater was armed and they managed to only hit the perp and not other theater-goers, it is doubtful if it would have done any good at all once you realize that they would have had to get a really lucky shot into a seam between the armor elements, have armor-piercing rounds, or a REALLY heavy caliber weapon. A bullet-resistant vest can stop a .357 Magnum round just inches away. How many people are going to be carrying around something more powerful than that?

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    Charles Bundy

    Even if you knew he had body armor on, that changes the self-defense posture in what way? None that I can think of. You shoot and keep shooting on target. You'll either get lucky or keep him busy flinching and not firing into the crowd for the time it takes you to run out of ammo. BTW it still hurts like **** when you get hit wearing body armor.

    I do agree with Hal, in the training sessions I've attended I wouldn't arm those folks and they were often municipal/county police and security! That gives lie to the assumption that only "well trained police/military forces should be armed." Not all of us carrying are idiots either!

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    hleveque

    explaining to survivors as they stagger out the front door that you had guns but didn't feel it was Wise to shoot. After that, go inside and explain it again to the dead.

    Your job was to accept the bad situation, come up with an "optimum" solution, and implement it to the best of your ability. That is the best anyone could do.

    And PS - you had no way of knowing the shooter had body armor. But several rounds into that and he would have lost his concentration on shooting defenseless people and started searching for you. Some would have escaped because of you.

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    Deadly Ernest

    one body shot, if he don't go down, three more quickies to spin him and set him up for a head shot. I know that and I've not been near a military base for just on twenty years.

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    Slayer_

    Maybe not die, but he'd have a lot of broken ribs.

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    Deadly Ernest

    There are cases of people having their ribs crushed despite wearing heavy duty body armour, while others hardly notice the effects of lightweight .22 subsonic rounds hitting them while wearing a heavy woollen coat.

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    Deadly Ernest

    to invade and overrun, or keep under control if you do surprise them. That's one of the reasons why the first thing a dictator does is to disarm the general public.

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    chdchan

    I agree, of Chinese (us) some are bandits, more violent, and in general of lower moral standard that should be more cautiously disapproved of carrying guns.

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    Slayer_

    If they had a gun and were in that theatre, they could have stopped the shooter.

    But that internet cafe with the old man shooting those robbers. That's the way to do it.

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    Deadly Ernest

    verified before being posted. One I love from some years back was about a criminal who walked into a popular store and pulled out a gun in an attempt to rob it. He was very surprised when over thirty people pulled out their own guns and pointed them at him - he gave up real quick.

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    CharlieSpencer

    I suspect that few had a direct view of the shooter. Had more than two or three in the audience been armed, they might have mistakenly fired on each other. If you hear shots and you can only see one person shooting, you aim at him assuming he's the original assailant, overlooking the possibility that he's a fellow defender. This becomes even more likely in a crowded, dark theater in the middle of one of the movie's battles, with screaming people constantly altering the sight lines. Fortunately, many other gun owners I've heard from say they probably would not have fired due to a lack of verifiable target. As the number of owners goes up, the number of irresponsible ones does too.

    That's also my response to the original poster's position that we're better off if more people are armed. At what point do those attempting to defend everyone else become a danger to each other?

    As to Americans needing guns because we're rich, more crimes are committed against the poor, by the poor, than against those who are better off.

    I find it ludicrous to be lectured on safety by someone from a country that routinely imprisons others for the ghastly crime of disagreeing with it. Now there's a group of people that need firearms. See Ernest's 'One point...' above.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    You know we need Massive Mags for Military Rifles.

    Doesn't matter that a Solder only gets a few shots off before having to change Mags we who are not as well trained need Mags with 1,000 times the ammo just so that we may get one off in the right direction.

    From my understanding of that Movie Theater there was Tear Gas used first before the Gun person with a Gas Mask walked in shooting with a 100 Round Mag. How he only killed 12 and wounded 58 with such a high powered Rifle is what needs to be address here.

    The weapon was obviously faulty as it didn't shoot straight. Things should have been so much worse that what actually happened. Then again I suppose a Midnight Showing also meant small numbers of patrons attending so that there was more space between them making it harder to hit them through all that smoke.

    What the **** do you need Assault Rifles for in the first place. After all they where designed and built to do just one thing and that isn't any form of Hunting. Then build 100 Round Mag's for them when they where never designed to carry that much Ammo you have to wonder who these fools are. And that was just one of the 4 weapons that this guy was supposed to have. [/sarcasm]

    Col

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    TheChas

    Col,

    I don't know how it is down under, but here in the US, midnight showings for the opening of a major movie are big events and often sold out to full capacity in advance.

    What saved lives was a combination of the shooters lack of practice (training) and the fact that the weapon jammed.

    What has not been released was a count of how many rounds were still in the 100 round magazine. Or, even which of the weapons scored the most hits. (What a macabre line of thought.)

    As many states have relaxed the rules to get a concealed carry permit, I am more concerned about going out in public than I was when one had to show cause to get a CCW permit.

    Part of my thoughts are if you need to carry a gun to go to the grocery store, you are paranoid and need help. The second part of that thought is why would you go into a situation where there is a risk that you would need a gun for protection. The third part of this thought is that if we as a country have allowed our society to crumble so much that there is risk to life and limb to go to the grocery store, we would be much better off spending money to improve our neighborhoods rather than buy guns and ammo.

    On the same thought path, I know of no statistical evidence that either an armed citizenry or harsh crime penalties (including the death penalty) reduce crime.

    Chas

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    No info here that it was a Opening just a Midnight Showing.

    If anything that makes the low Body Count even worse and that is the really sad thing here that we can think that way. Maybe I need help as when I first heard the News Reports I thought this is going to be really nasty and sounds like a Higher Body Count that what happened in Norway last year.

    I must be hanging around with the wrong people to think like that, way too many Judges, Queens Councils and the like make me think of the worst that can happen rather than anything else. Though I can not help but think of a phrase I heard in a Movie somewhere that goes something like this "Just because you are Paranoid doesn't mean that someone isn't out to get you."

    On the same thought path, I know of no statistical evidence that either an armed citizenry or harsh crime penalties (including the death penalty) reduce crime.

    Not really supposed to cut down Crime as a Judge here told me a while ago. It's more about making the Citizens feel that when someone does something nasty they mistakenly believe that the Purp will be hunted down and punished. It's most defiantly nothing to do with Law & Order but only to make the Public feel better about what is going on.

    Col

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    CharlieSpencer

    If I thought I needed to be armed to go somewhere, I wouldn't go there. The 'Stand your ground' crowd might say that I'm knuckling under, or that I'm letting fear dictate my actions. I don't see it as any different from not seeing how close I can drive to the edge of the cliff.

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    CharlieSpencer

    And I don't know what I said to start HAL's magazine comments. I too question the need for assault rifles. The US National Rifle Association takes a 'slippery slope' approach to firearm regulations. They daren't let any legislation pass that increases firearm regulation, no matter how slightly, because they claim it will just be the first of many.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    The Guy in Question supposedly had a 100 Round Mag on an Assault Rifle.

    Besides destroying the Barrel putting that many rounds through the thing so quickly I see no need for a weapon like that.

    It was designed to only do 1 thing and I have yet to run across Members of the Public who need something like that. What's even more concerning is if the Military don't need Magazines like that why would anyone else.

    Of course the above post was dripping with Sarcasm not so much to you but to the OP. I can just imagine the mess that would have been made if others in that place returned fire. While I don't have anything to do with Firearms now I do have a mate who is a army surgeon and I do know the damage that weapons like that do, do.

    Col

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    Slayer_

    If you miss the first time, you have 99 more tries.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    You wouldn't find anything more than Parts of Feathers.

    Hit a chicken with something like that and it really would be Blown Away. :^0

    Col

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    Slayer_

    Could always try one of those 1300fps pellet guns I saw at Cabellas.


    I couldn't even pump the damn thing.

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    CharlieSpencer

    when one of these whack-jobs leaves behind a note thanking the Founding Fathers and the NRA for making his assault possible.

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    Deadly Ernest

    full auto weapon meant you could get your full bag of dead bunnies in the first minute or so of shooting at the hillside that was covered with rabbit. It's an odd feeling to fire a bolt action rifle at a rabbit on the hillside, and as you watch him drop dead you spot another tow or three hundred break cover and head off in the other direction at high speed. With a rifle like that i could get a lot more before they get out of sight again.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    I believe that a Large Caliber Weapon would be counter productive.

    I have a friend with a 50MM Machine Gun on his wall along with quite a few rounds in a belt with Tracer every third round then a Amour Piecing and lastly a straight shell.

    A weapon like that wouldn't get you a bag full of Bunnies it would **** the hill away. I just don't see the need for Semi Automatic Large Caliber Fire Arms and that 50mm is a small cannon not a machine gun no matter what it's called.

    The scary thing is that is a Legal Weapon here under the current Laws.

    In your analogy a Auto Large Caliber isn't warranted or even desirable it would probably be even better to be firing Shot rather than single Projectiles in a case like that and it most certainly would give you more Bunny per head to eat rather than blowing most of the bunny away and spreading it out over a large area and other bunnies hopping away at a great rate of Knots. Besides here the last time I went bush with the various Biological attacks on the bunnies they are not something I would be eating, snake looks a lot safer and tastier to me.

    Col

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    CharlieSpencer

    The dark joke in the Army is that the US policy says the .50 cal should not be used against personnel, only aimed at enemy equipment. Of course, the definition of equipment can be stretched to include belt buckles, canteens, ponchos, etc.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    Assault Rifles are neither Concealable or necessary for the general population to own.

    I very much doubt that you could walk down a street with a AK47/M16 slung over your shoulder and not attract attention of at the very least the Law Enforcement who would be asking you what the **** you thought you where doing. Of course the person who hides behind a concealable pistol could always pull it out and shoot you dead and say that you where scaring them and that they where in fear of their lives so they did what was necessary to protect them self.

    Wouldn't really matter though as you would still be dead.

    I do tend to agree that Weapons do not kill people, people kill people but honestly have you looked at some of the people lately? Do you honestly trust them with something that could kill you if you did something that they where worried about? He was walking down the street invading my space That is more than enough reason for some people to react. We make people get a license to drive a car for a very good reason cars can kill. Firearms are no better and some need to be restricted because they where only designed to do a single function which is not a function that the Masses should have access to or for that matter require.

    Col

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    Deadly Ernest

    If I'd been allowed to keep my Remington 870 Brushmaster 12 gauge shotgun, or my father's Browning semi-automatic .22 poacher's rifle I can save a lot on food by shooting rabbits on the local farms and making a lot of rabbit stew. But, nooo, thanks to a push by certain elements in our society all the law abiding people have been disarmed and only the criminals now have guns. The changes to the laws also meant that it costs them nearly as much to buy a military MP5 with folding stock as it does for a semi-automatic .22, so the crims now buy military weapons when they can - the cost and prison time for having them is now the same.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    Was an Assault Rifle. I don't have any issue with Rifles as such but I do have a very big issue with things like AK47/M16 's in the hands of the public.

    I used to have to carry a pistol many years ago because the Law said I had to and other than the routine certification I never needed to fire it. Of course I also had a Uncle who had a sheep farm way out west near Hundgeon and you never left the Farm House without caring a 303 because the Pigs are nasty animals which you really do not want to run into.

    On the other hand I've seen idiots who have gone onto my uncles land shooting and had to scrape them up from the idiot things that they have done to themselves. The worst one was some guy pulling a 12 Gage under a fence after he climbed through and killing himself. A very expensive rifle and he was supposedly shooting pigs. What the **** Duck Shot is going to do to a pig other than upset it is way beyond my merge understanding but then again what would I know?

    About 5 years latter we had to go out and get a guy out of a tree who had shot a pig with another 12 Gage and then climbed the tree to escape the ****ed Off Pig. He then dropped the Double Barrel and blew one of his feet off. But people are not stupid and they all know how to handle a firearm.

    Personally those idiots who where involved in the Gun Buyback made me crazy. The entire thing was a disaster with the Government paying for Antiaircraft Guns well cannons which are neither transportable or a real treat to anyone. My cousin had a 400 year old Flint Lock Pistol and as he's a QC's he was not allowed to keep that. Seems that he's not Trustworthy enough and may have been a danger to Life and Property.

    I organized that going to a Collector where it was looked after and not destroyed. They also crushed quite a few WW1 German Machine Guns which could have very easily come off a Red Triplane that crashed and was stripped by Aussies and to me that was a crime.

    On the flip side I knew a guy who had a small lathe and he turned up M16 Barrels out of Mild Steal and got $50.00 per Barrel under that scheme. He had a roaring trade going cost him about $15.00 per barrel and the Government paid him $50.00. It didn't matter that the things where completely impossible to put a single round through the Government just paid for as many as he could make. But they didn't waste any money at all after all we have a Polly telling us that his Government was Perfect. They could waste massive amounts of money on that scheme and then bitterly complain that the Free Enterprise suppliers couldn't fit Pink Bats in peoples ceilings properly or legally. :^0

    Col

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    Deadly Ernest

    standard weapons (and I mean modern military) that were fully automatic. Old bolt actions like the Lee-Enfields, and semi-automatic (ie one trigger pull one shot) civilian calibre weapons like shotguns and .22 should never have banned - with an exception for hand guns or rifles like the AR7 that can be easily converted to a handgun size.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    The problem is that some people use one to justify the other on both sides of the argument.

    The reason why that Flint Lock was not possible to be kept by it's owner who had it passed down from his father was because it could be used to Rob a Bank.

    What type of Idiot would even consider firing it is way beyond my meager comprehension but to actually say something as idiot as that with a straight face made me wild. Personally I would not consider attempting to fire something like that with in locked in a vice and a string tied to the trigger with myself standing a long way away, let alone taking such a valuable piece anywhere but a exhibition.

    I still have swords here and I had some petty bureaucrat come visit me one day when I was sitting down cleaning one, the silly woman ran away screaming something about being attacked and this is while I was behind a locked security screen sitting down with the blade across my legs and rubbing polish onto the blade. The dam thing is a Ceremonial Sword as worn by the current Military while on Parade. I just can not comprehend how some people think let alone stay alive.

    Col

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    Charles Bundy

    An AR-15 is a dandy varmint rifle. Of course I live in the country where I sometimes need to reach out and whack something at distance in the field. You really can't sneak up close on ye olde coyote... Thus I do believe pointing at a rifle and saying it's only good for military purposes is a tad short sighted. Unless you would rather let Wile make off with your steak?

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    A Bolt Action 303 would do the same thing and not destroy Barrels by pumping so many rounds down a overheating barrel. A AR15 is Air Cooled and doesn't have anywhere near enough Metal in the Barrel for Rapid Fire work for long term use.

    In Farms here you need Rifles for self protection from the Imported Pests like Pigs I can use a Bolt Action Rifle and get 3 or 4 rounds into a charging pig if necessary but the reality is that 1 is more than enough.

    I would however say that a AR15 is too small a Caliber for bigger problem Varmint's here though and emptying a entire Mag into a big Pig charging because you have got too close to their babies is likely to make it madder not stop it.

    Also if you need more than 2 rounds to stop a charging Pig you shouldn't have a rifle to start off with. You are a danger to yourself more than anything else.

    Besides Semi's waste shells. They are harder to find after being used so you can reload that night.

    Col

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    Charles Bundy

    fixation? My little Ruger 22 is also "semi-automatic" which allows me to squeeze the trigger two or three times to nail a groundhog moving low and in a serpentine fashion. I can't do that with my father's old bolt action .22 or your 303 example :)

    I like the AR-15 because it too is a .22 caliber which means lower cost for ammo and extra oomph to get out to 1000 feet. Never seen the problems you describe with cooling. I've never used it on anything larger than 40 pounds but we don't have wild pigs around here. Just some happy hogs that get out, push over small cars and rummage through the garden sometimes!

    Addendum: Not that I'm accurate at 1000 feet, mind you, but it does help with wind shear/drop out to that distance! :)

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    It's with the Large Caliber Fire Arms that are available.

    A semi 22 is a nice little fire arm that can be useful in the right hands at the right time, however I've seen way too many people who think that because they have a firearm they can do what they want from the bit of using a 12 Gage for Pigs I mentioned elsewhere here to a guy I ran across on my uncles property who was using a 22 for Roos. Not the wallabies but the big roos who he was attempting to shot at too long a distance through an overly powerful scope that he had had fitted to the rifle. He insisted that as he could see the roos he could shoot them but all he managed to do was antagonize them and I had to go around cleaning up after him.

    The last time I was on that property I was shooting sheep at the height of a drought where they where too expensive to move, not worth selling and there was no food or water for them so every day we would go out shoot several thousand sheep and go back to the homestead at night reload the spent shells to do the same thing the next day. We used Semi 22's for that but I've seen way too many people who just because they have a fire arm think that it will do anything.

    A guy at a range the last time I was there had a 20 Gage and 22 Under and Over Arraignment which was a nice weapon but the 50 X Scope on it to me at least seemed pointless. With the 20 Gage you just sort of point in in the general direction of what you want to hit and pull the trigger so the scope wasn't necessary and the 22 bit couldn't handle the range of the scope it was attached to. It was for something with much more range.

    However again I'll say it I'm more concerned about the people I see who own Fire Arms than the actual Weapons themselves.

    Col

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    hleveque

    robbery or **** or any type of criminal behavior, I'd say that the heightened concern is a plus.

    A lot of crime has no doubt been prevented because the criminal didn't want *anybody* shooting at him...for all he knows, they are expert.

    Nothing wrong with gun safety courses either....

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    chdchan

    So if explosives do not kill, sleep beside them.
    If a lion doesn't have sharp fangs and claws, we don't have to be afraid of it. That's the point I hold for general public should not possess guns. But many the above posters would still like to stop crime with guns by not considering a gunfight could result in even higher toll of lives.

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    Deadly Ernest

    each year by knives than they are by guns. With your logic no one should ever have a knife, yet they have there place in daily use in most societies, so do guns. However, there is a difference between civilian level weapons and military level and I see no need for civilians to have military weapons unless they are military reservists and they have the weapon assigned to them in case of need, as happens in some European countries.

    There is no such thing as a deadly weapon, but there are deadly people. No weapon has ever decided, of its own accord, to jump up and kill people, but people have and have even killed people with no more than their bare hands.

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    lammwa

    ...could have been saved if those guns had been knives? Against a knife you "have a chance" but against a gun you have none! If we went back to knife vs. knife it would have the same preventive affect as everyone arming themselves with guns AND save hundreds of lives per year! Guns DO kill as without them the killing part becomes much more "challenging"...

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    Deadly Ernest

    taking down someone with a gun. There have also been cases of people going amok with a knife doing a lot more damage (ie killing and wounding people) than some with a gun. It all comes down to individuals involved and how they behave. I've never come across a single case of a gun, or a knife, hurting or killing someone where a person has not been involved in it at all; in some cases the person was stupid and left a loaded gun set to fire where it could fall, others they held it and fired or something similar to either.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    I have what's the problem? Just don't have Electric Detonators out in the open and use a Mobile Phone that's not overly safe.

    If a lion doesn't have sharp fangs and claws, we don't have to be afraid of it.

    It's a Wild Animal you need to treat all Wild Animals with Caution. For instance would you go an Cuddle a Panda that you ran across in the Bush?

    Here in AU we have Koala's a Cute Animal but you run across one in the Wild you should avoid it like the Plague they can Kill though not as fast as a Lion.

    That's the point I hold for general public should not possess guns.

    I disagree Guns have never hurt a single person it's people who kill other people, you don't need a Gun to do that something as simple as a Ball Point Pen driven in between the Third & Fourth Rib will kill you faster than any Firearm, and who would be worried about someone walking towards them with a Ball Point Pen?

    However if by Gun you mean Assault Rifle or other Military Grade Fire Arm that is a different story. I see no need for anyone outside the Army and Military Collectors to have things like that. Though here the QLD Police have a Museum and in it there is Field Marshals Rommel's Luger that is a lovely weapon and so different from every Luger in the building.

    But many the above posters would still like to stop crime with guns by not considering a gunfight could result in even higher toll of lives.

    Strangely enough I do agree with you on that one but again it's people who cause the problems. Many years ago I used to visit a Sheep Property and I had to go out and find a corpse then secure it and call the police in to investigate why this person shot them self accidentally. Apparently you would never understand that you do not crawl under a fence then pull a Shotgun through after you by the barrel with the safety Off as it might go BANG and kill you.

    The Guns as you like to call them are simply not an issue it's the people who are holding them when they go BANG that are the real problem. I don't own a Firearm now days I don't actually like them all that much but I'm by no means scared of them, they are a Tool nothing more nothing less. No different to a 24 inch Number 1 Phillips Screwdriver it's a tool necessary for a job but it can also be used as a Lethal Weapon if the person holding it has a mind to do so.

    And if I had to go out on another Sheep Farm tomorrow and do something in a paddock I wouldn't hesitate to grab a Rifle to protect myself from being attacked by a pig. Or a cousin who is into Pistol Shooting, Target Competition was surprised when I could get a perfect score the first time I ever handled the weapon that he wanted me to shoot. He was driving me nuts to go out with him to the Range and when I finally relented he didn't believe me that I had never touched a similar weapon previously. OK he realized that I knew a little about Pistols by the way that I handled it but other than the most obvious things like asking where what the different Safety things where and how they worked. I needed to familiarize myself with the tool, unfortunately way too many people when they get any Firearm in their hands think that they are 10 foot tall and bullet proof and are Dangerous to both themselves and those around them.

    Col

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    Slayer_

    I had never realized just how many guns were in my house (back when I was living with my folks). My father was sick of the gun registration law, and when a cop showed up, he let him take his guns.
    From an outside observer it looked pretty bad, this cop making several trips into the house grabbing hand fulls of rifles, pistols, etc. Boxes and boxes of ammunition. Old world war guns, everything. I seriously didn't know he had that many guns. Apparently all we have left are 3 rifles, and a pellet gun.

    Ah good times...

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    As a Sewing Machine Mechanic. It was a new dealer and I was doing what they called a Service Clinic there to get them known.

    Anyway the first night the Bed was really uncomfortable but I didn't think much of it till the next night. I just had to have a look see why it didn't sink and was so uncomfortable. Only about 50 Exemplary 303's stuffed under it all the way up till you could fit no more.

    Granted the Bolts where out and they where perfectly safe but they had more Rifles that I have ever seen outside an Amory lying all around that house.

    It was a working Sheep Farm that Borders a National Park that had a Pig Infestation. The National Park had trained their Kangaroos to jump the fence to feed and then when anyone came they just decamped back to the National Park where they where protected. The Pigs never fully understood the Roos as they where fair game either side of the fence.

    Also when you walked out the door any door you where asked did you want a Rifle and they had 10 or so beside each door along with a pile of Mags and open bowls of bullets. You just grabbed a rifle, a mag or 2 and a handful of Bullets and walked away. They did have some 22 there as well but when I was told that they had Pigs I didn't bother looking at anything that small. It was quite funny actually they asked did I want a Rifle and when I said no it's not necessary that was fine but 200 yards further down just as we where getting into the car I was warned to steer clear of the pigs. I just said you have Pigs here I'll have a Rifle.

    Col

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    Charles Bundy

    I have tried explaining to my co-workers that those "cute teddy bears" are not to be trifled with and they think I'm kidding!

    It sounds like we have different varmint problems due to geography thus requiring different firing solutions!

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    I scrapped up a Wildlife Ranger who was tasked with removing Koala's from a region that was going to be flooded by a new dam. The guy shook a Wild Koala out of a tree and it caught him with it's hind legs in his shoulders it's front legs in his legs and it's mouth biting his "Family Jewels" The Claws dug in quite deeply down to the bone and just to make sure that the Varmint had the finial say it peeded on him as well into all the open wounds.

    Three hours latter when we got to the Hospital it took the Quacks a couple of hours to stitch the wounds up and then 3 weeks in the Hospital with constant Antibiotic Drips to kill the infection.

    It always amazes me just how many people think that they are Cuddly and shouldn't be treated as a wild animal. Of course it was breeding season so it was probably not the best time to make the "Forced Move." :^0

    Col

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    Charles Bundy

    crying and laughing. And guilt over the laughing. That sounds like the time I saw a Koala drop from a tree like an avenging angel on a biologist. Assuming avenging angels scream hideously as they unleash their 3 inch razor like claws. It was an eye opener alright. I don't even know if it was breeding season or just constipation on the little devil's part!

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    He has a great story to tell when he's drinking about the time he was attacked by one of those Cuddly Animals.

    Of course 20 + years to contemplate the stupidity of his superiors and the way that they said it was easy to do makes all things sound funny. I still fully remember that day as the little monster didn't want to let go no matter what was done to it. Then when he did he promptly climbed the same tree and sat looking with a smug look at what was going on below.

    After that it was a standing joke to look out for Drop Bears cus they hurt. :^0

    Col

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    Charles Bundy

    Sleeping beside explosives? Playing with wild animals? Stupid. You do realize these are all decisions people would make, hence affirming that people kill. Doubt all you like but if a nutball case wants to kill it will happen no matter what methods are ready at hand.

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    hleveque

    private gun ownership is specifically allowed by the Constitution and govt infringement of same is specifically disallowed.

    We are not punishing criminals to the max, far from it. Until we do that further philosophical discussion is silly.

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    hleveque

    1. The right to own and use private firearms is in the Constitution, and in our history since at least the early 1600's. The answer to criminals is not to keep legit citizens from owning guns.

    2. An "assault" rifle normally has selective fire, to select one shot per trigger pull or unlimited shots per trigger pull. No traditional hunting rifle has unlimited shots per trigger pull.

    3. The AR-15 fires once per trigger pull, therefore does not qualify as an assault rifle.

    4. Rifles which fire once per trigger pull are called semi-automatic. Rifles which fire unlimited times per trigger pull are called automatics.

    5. A semi-automatic rifle is legal to own, and your bona fides are checked with the govt before you can purchase it. An automatic rifle is legal to own but requires a special license and a more detailed personal investigation before you can buy it.

    6. A clip is just a reservoir of unfired ammo. When you fire once, the empty is ejected and a fresh round is moved from the clip to the rifle. Why would you need it? For additional shots at a fleeing deer, to make it easy to concentrate during target practice, or to avoid having to reload often.

    7. These days it seems all rifles are referred to as assault weapons. This is by people and politicians who are ignorant. The AK-47 has selective fire, and is an assault weapon. Ditto for the M16. But the elderly Garand is semi-automatic. All have clips. The key should be which are automatic fire, like a machine gun.

    8. The Aurora movie massacre may have ended differently if a couple of gents in the audience stood up with their handguns as soon as that fool started shooting. Some of the dead may have had a second chance.

    9. I suggest we impose maximum penalties for willful killings with a gun. After that Aurora movie jerk is tried and convicted, take him out back and shoot him. Each victim or victim's family gets an empty shell casing. That will take a 70 round clip.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    The Aurora movie massacre may have ended differently if a couple of gents in the audience stood up with their handguns as soon as that fool started shooting. Some of the dead may have had a second chance.

    With a smoke filled room and watering eyes I'm sure it would have been completely different. Instead of the few killed & Injured there would have been a lot more and many of the what we will call "Innocents" would be on trial for shooting other patrons of that theater. The Police would have seized every Firearm even the ones not discharged and done Ballistic Tests on them to see where their Projectiles went. Of course if you hit anyone but the Primary Shooter you're in for a world of Hurt and very long Legal Battle not to mention the loss of any other Fire Arms you may have and very likely a Criminal Record.

    The reality most people who have Fire Arms do not know how to use them safely and most certainly are not trained to know what to do in anything but a Great Environment where they have a clear line of sight.

    Throw them into a darkened Picture Theater with lots of Fire Arms going off on the screen and then toss in a Tear Gas Grenade and they are effectively blinded to all but the closest Barrel Flash who in that case is just as likely to be another Patron Returning Fire. Don't worry about the running masses of people trying to get out of the road read that as "Line of Fire" you have the Perfect Recipe for a Disaster.

    I've seen way too many Stupid People with Fire Arms who simply should never have been allowed to own a Fire Arm in the first place let alone stick any Ammunition into it to begin with. Way too many people think that they are 10 Foot Tall & Bullet Proof when they have a Fire Arm in their Hot Sweaty Hands and act accordingly, then wonder why they shoot themselves with their own weapons.

    Look at Libya recently a Media Crew was interviewing a group of Liberation Fighters who thought that they came under fire and returned fire for 20 minutes only to find out it was another of their party who was shooting into the Air Celebrating another Dangerious Stupid thing to do. Or the Captured Jet Fighter which was going to be used by the Insurgents? which was shot down less than 2 minutes into it's first flight by the pilot's Allies because we don't have any aircraft so it's fair game.

    A Fire Arm in Undisciplined Hands is just as dangerous as anything else that a Fool is allowed to use, it can Mame and Kill anyone and very rarely does what was intended.

    Col

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    Charles Bundy

    Absolves you of criminal prosecution so long as you are not the initiator of the conflict. After the first shot from Holmes, you are considered in defense of your person and/or third parties and justified in the use of lethal force.

    Civil is another matter and you are correct that a defender could certainly be tried by a victim or their family for harm. Of course you can be sued for just walking down the street here in America, so I'll take the chance on being prepared and hopefully alive to be sued.

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    Deadly Ernest

    "Don't ever pull your firearm unless you really have to use it. If you do have to shoot, shoot to kill as the case in the Coroner's Court is a damn sight easier to deal with than in a civil court."

    I always felt that was damn good advice.

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    Charles Bundy

    The only thing I can think of that might give me some pause in the theatre situation is backstop. I don't like pulling the trigger when you don't know what's behind the wall. But if he keeps shooting there really isn't much choice.

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    Bruce Epper

    Dickhead left the theater & returned not only with the weapons & ammo but also wearing body armor. Even if anyone else in the theater was armed and they managed to only hit the perp and not other theater-goers, it is doubtful if it would have done any good at all once you realize that they would have had to get a really lucky shot into a seam between the armor elements, have armor-piercing rounds, or a REALLY heavy caliber weapon. A bullet-resistant vest can stop a .357 Magnum round just inches away. How many people are going to be carrying around something more powerful than that?

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    Charles Bundy

    Even if you knew he had body armor on, that changes the self-defense posture in what way? None that I can think of. You shoot and keep shooting on target. You'll either get lucky or keep him busy flinching and not firing into the crowd for the time it takes you to run out of ammo. BTW it still hurts like **** when you get hit wearing body armor.

    I do agree with Hal, in the training sessions I've attended I wouldn't arm those folks and they were often municipal/county police and security! That gives lie to the assumption that only "well trained police/military forces should be armed." Not all of us carrying are idiots either!

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    hleveque

    explaining to survivors as they stagger out the front door that you had guns but didn't feel it was Wise to shoot. After that, go inside and explain it again to the dead.

    Your job was to accept the bad situation, come up with an "optimum" solution, and implement it to the best of your ability. That is the best anyone could do.

    And PS - you had no way of knowing the shooter had body armor. But several rounds into that and he would have lost his concentration on shooting defenseless people and started searching for you. Some would have escaped because of you.

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    Deadly Ernest

    one body shot, if he don't go down, three more quickies to spin him and set him up for a head shot. I know that and I've not been near a military base for just on twenty years.

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    Slayer_

    Maybe not die, but he'd have a lot of broken ribs.

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    Deadly Ernest

    There are cases of people having their ribs crushed despite wearing heavy duty body armour, while others hardly notice the effects of lightweight .22 subsonic rounds hitting them while wearing a heavy woollen coat.