IT Employment·20,064 discussions

Has your education paid off?

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I’m talking formal education as it seems to be a big business these days. A bachelor’s degree now = a high school diploma 20-30 years ago. Colleges (and certification mills) are advertising like crazy in the newspapers, radios, and on TV. Millions of people are going into debt to fund their education, whether it be a college degree, vocational degree, or certificate.

Obviously there isn’t a job for EVERYONE who invests their time, money, and energy on schooling. Have you gotten a degree and it hasn’t paid off? Do you know anyone who has? I’m kinda curious as I’m considering furthering my education (grad degree) but not so sure that it is worth the time and hassle as it seems the job market is oversaturated with college grads.

Topic

agree to it at certain point

In reply to Has your education paid off?

hi u cant say that there isn’t a job for everyone first of all the society is getting bigger and bigger there is more ways of making a living provided we discover them, well indeed we see unemployments around us thats bad, but being humans we should find ways of discovering jobs esp those at which we have the potential within us to put forward and most importanly living in a society like this our education manipulates us to face chanllenges and basically that happens only if our brains develop thru years of education in other words when we come to a certain level we come to know what we should do next and its only at that point of level we come to know… will give u a short exp of myself when i was doing my grad my dad came upto me and was like “nazil u r eating my money do something ” i felt bad even cried that day but after a year i came to know what he actually meant and that was “i should be walkin on my feet” so i took up a part time job coping up with my studies so basically now feels great about my dads decesions cos if after my educations and on the verge of my job hunting i would have been not well prepared to take up but now the confidence has already built within me …. so dude better think cos i dont want u to repent later for the time u wasted for not taking up a grad

Wow, that hurts my eyes

In reply to agree to it at certain point

did you ever consider putting periods at the end of sentences?

Get it

In reply to Has your education paid off?

“Obviously there isn’t a job for EVERYONE who invests their time, money, and energy on schooling.”

Yes, that’s true. So do the math. Extrapolate the jobs that are available to the people who DON’T do that!

There are a lot of really good people looking for work, competing against each other… and against YOU! The job market is utterly awful. Anything a person can do to increase his opportunities is worth doing.

A master’s degree won’t necessarily move your resume to the top of the pile on a hiring manager’s desk. What it will do is give you the qualifications to get your resume ONTO the desks of some hiring managers who otherwise would never receive it.

I would invert your question and then the answer is a no-brainer. I know a LOT of people who did NOT get a degree and that strategy has definitely NOT paid off for them, on the average. I can’t point to any specific people who have only a B.S. or B.A. and are not getting jobs because they don’t have an M.S. or M.A. (Or–yucch–an M.B.A., what a way to take the fun out of getting educated.) But I do know a number of them who are pretty desperate for work. Whereas no one I know with a master’s degree has been unemployed for a significant period of time.

Gets you in the door

In reply to Has your education paid off?

While a formal education does not determine if you are a capable tech (as many of us know here), it is still a bench mark that is used in MANY companies when they are looking for techs beyond entry level.

Keep in mind, it is often non-technical people that are the first line in hiring people and they almost always College grads themselves and so will place an even hirer emphasis on College because it helps to validate themselves.

Just a degree is often not enough. Getting a valid mix of certs and education will serve you well.

Note: There are many here without either that will tell you up and down that both formal eduction and certs are a waste of time, but in the tight markets, you need something to make you stand out. To these people I say, don’t get any letters behind your name. It makes it easier for the rest of us.

Exceptions are to be made for people that had 10+ years in the field BEFORE certs and formal education became so profitable.

As an exception

In reply to Gets you in the door

I never got the degree, but got my start in house in heavy industry a long long time ago. I can always get a job, but even with 18 years in IT and some pretty good stuff on my cv, I still get binned by HR types who need the bit of paper to ‘prove’ , that they aren’t putting forward the wrong guy.
Every time I consider validating my experience with a qualification, somebody comes along and offers me a job, so I keep not getting round to it.
Nowadays the opportunity to do what I did is rarer than an honest politician though and I would n’t recomend anyone trying to make it in IT without a degree, no matter how talented.

So get the bit of paper, it will be worth it if it’s backing up your innate abilities.

Degree to get started.

In reply to As an exception

I agree with you, since you pretty much need a bachelors from a brick-n-mortar (in this town, a brick-n-mortar with a NCAA 1-A football program) to get a entry level help desk job for six-fitty an hour over at Small Tech. Maybe you can pick up your MBA while you are grinding it out there.

All of this to get past the gal in HR who barely knows how to turn on her PC, but has half the alphabet behind her name.

(In a way, I envy my daughter, who will “merely” have to pick up her flute, and give whoever is parked in first chair a run for it.)

Gives you the edge

In reply to Has your education paid off?

At uni, you learn alot more than just the details of the subject you study – teamwork, report writing, communication skills, project management, prioritisation etc all in a formal environment. Its very tempting not to do a degree when you hear of peole “working their way up” or friends the same age are out there earning money, but getting a degree proves you can work hard to achieve a goal and have all of the transferrable skills above.

Now i’m in a management position I can definately see the difference employees with and without degrees – not so much in subject knowledge, but in transferrable skills, ability to learn and problem solving

I’d employee and IT grad over someone the same age with with experience, if the market is over saturated with college grads what chance do you have without one?

good luck

Obvious you have n’t met me then

In reply to Gives you the edge

Still I’d have to think how to solve the problem of your academic snobbery if I worked for you. Do you learn that at uni too ?
While you were taking your degree, I was working shifts, raising and paying for a family and learning off my own bat to improve myself. So don’t take a degree beacuse it proves dedication, take it because it’s a lot easier !.

If you are seriously saying that you’d pick someone with a bit of paper over someone without whether they were more capable or not, you must have missed a few classes !

The market is over saturated with college grads

In reply to Obvious you have n’t met me then

I think Namco hit the nail squarely ont he head “…if the market is over saturated with college grads what chance do you have without one?”

Tony you are the exception, and God love you for it. I am not, and will be going back to school (at age 50!) for the degree I should have gone for right out of high school.

To say that the bachelors of today is the same as a high school diploma is a fallacy, in that back then a good man with a high school diploma could always find work.

Today with core industries shuttered, mom & pop operations as well as major consumer goods manufacturers “Wal-Marted” out of business (Rubbermaid, Thompson Electronics), a “good man” with a bachelors has his resume on the heap in file 13, along with everyone else HR and/or the Diversity Manager has chosen to ignore. (my personal bias showing through, of course.)

I thank the heavens that my daughter has musical ability to pursue if she wants her, as opposed to IT. At least there is the blind audition in the path to a job, where you get judged on your ability, to compensate for the politics.

Don’t know about the US

In reply to The market is over saturated with college grads

but educational standards in terms of content have dropped enormously in the UK. Most of the stuff I had to learn in Maths and science isn’t even on the syllabus anymore. My daughter’s teacher showed me the hardest grade maths paper for a sixteen year old and I almost cried, could have passed that when I was 11 and without a damn calculator.

The really scary part was when she told me it was harder than the one she took !

A musical gift is a great thing, whatever else happens if you can earn money at it, you are going to enjoy earning it.

Degree or experience

In reply to The market is over saturated with college grads

I once thought that I needed a degree to get a better paying job. I am one class away from my Doctorate and have huge tuition bills to show for it. When I interview for a job, I am asked, “What certifications do you have?” It depends on the company and the hiring person. Some prefer degrees, some certifications, some experience, and some a mixture of the above. My son-in-law is a District Manager for a Landscaping company. He has no degree but has 10 years experience. He makes more money than I do. If that’s not bad enough, he is getting a bonus in excess of $50,000 this year. Unless your ambition is to be a doctor or lawyer, I wouldn’t spend the money.

Not necessary, but it helps.

In reply to Obvious you have n’t met me then

While I only have an Associates degree in Computer Science, I have over 30 years of experience in mainframe/micro/mini/database programming and Database Administration. I know for a fact that most employers looking for an IT position will not interview someone without a degree of some sort. It really doesn’t matter what the degree is in, I know programmers with degrees in history and English. What the piece of paper says to an employer is that you had the drive and ambition to get your degree and that drive will probably be seen in your work effort. Anyone with the proper drive can get a degree; I don’t care what your workload is. Study at home, over the Internet, or night classes. It is all a matter of priorities. And it really pays off, study after study shows that a college graduate will make over a million dollars more then a non graduate over their lifetime of work.

Reverse snobbery

In reply to Obvious you have n’t met me then

Some of us worked to support ourselves and our families and at the same time got degrees. Don’t assume everyone with a degree did it on mom & dad’s dollar.

When I hire I look for:
1) formal education from good school
2) work experience
3) leadership experience

I will not hire a recent college grad who did not work while in school.

I’m looking for initiative, high energy, smarts, strong work ethic, strong foundational knowledge.

Of course there are really smart, talented, motivated people without degrees. But if you’re weeding through a pile of resumes, you have to use some rules of thumb. What I don’t look for is specific buzzwords. If you’re a Java programmer, you can teach yourself C# in a week or two; if you’re an Oracle DBA, you can pick up MS SQL Server. After all, the world of technology changes really quickly — ability to learn new things is more important than any specific knowledge.

MBTs not MBAs

In reply to Has your education paid off?

Hello Austin,

I’m an IT exec and I’ve found over the last 5 years that I am up against other IT execs with MBAs. It seems that the new baseline is no longer a degree but a MBA. In order to differentiate myself from the sea of MBAs, I undertook an MBT – Master of Business and Technology. This is an MBA with a focus on using technology to create a differentiating strategy. Nowadays, there are several institutions that provide a curriculum that attempt to marry business and IT.

Cheers,

Raguilar

Exactly!

In reply to MBTs not MBAs

This is what I did. Arizona State has a program designed with help from Intel and Motorola to create technical managers. Every person in my class had a technical background but needed the business knowledge to make it to the next level. The ASU program gave us that.

In summary, get the degree, but not just any degree. Make sure to get a degree that means something and complements your BSc degree.

Agreed – Grad Degree worth it

In reply to MBTs not MBAs

A college degree is worth it because it puts you ahead of the competition and is somewhat expensive yes. A GRAD DEGREE is totally worthwhile and will almost always put you in consideration for the job. That is my opinion. I had a job as a network admin and wanted to make more, but couldn’t get any offers much less replys when applying for jobs. I went back and got my undergrad, worked a couple places and got more experience. I am now in a graduate program for a MIS and then an MBA. It is a dual degree and the second year is the MBA. I recently posted my resume and was floored to have an influx of a phone calls and emails. Granted, I have some good experience and certifications but I can tell the Masters Degree is really what put me out there. It was the only major thing that changed on my resume since posting it previously.
It is still tough to find a company that is willing to pay what you are worth, however, it without doubt has created more opportunity for me. I am also only in the MIS program and have not graduated yet, if that tells you anything about the phone calls. The company’s and recruiters that have contacted me are interested just because of being in the graduate program and aren’t waiting for me to finish and have the degree.
With globalization coming into play in the next few years a graduate degree will be required to make really good money. Many of your competitors in other countries will also have college degrees, but not necesarily graduate degrees.

No, it doesn’t pay! You’re overqualified!

In reply to Has your education paid off?

That is, at least my experience.

Get Of the IT Field

In reply to Has your education paid off?

I do not know what college you went to or your background. My best advice to you is this GET OF THE IT FIELD THEY FEED YOU ALOT OF BS ABOUT it. I think right now you are waking up to real world. I bet IT is a love and passion. that was good if you like studing it in college. Right now take any job you can find. Technical support to a lobor. DO NOT waste your time with more high price schooling. If you need certification buy books and teach yourself. There are website that can help you pass the first time and cut your study time down. If you interset I can give you a few. But I want it to be through my personal email.
john

Don’t go into debt.

In reply to Has your education paid off?

The only way to ever get ahead is to go into business for yourself. Finding the right vehicle is important to get you where you want to go in life. It takes an average of 15-20 years for most people to pay off college. That’s not a very good return on investment. I currently have a job and a side business online. The side business is far better than the job and will soon be replacing my income. Being your own boss is the best way to go!

listen to 12eagles – he speaks the truth

In reply to Don’t go into debt.

This poster has given the best advice yet. Just stop and think logically for a minute. For the most part, negotiating for wage increases as an employee is probably a forgone conclusion. Why is this? There are several reasons.

First of all, one of the main interests of the owners (or shareholders) is to control costs so they can maximize their personal return on investment. In large companies, the pressure to keep costs down is passed on to your manager. So, the fact is that your manager will be looking to get the most out of you for as little possible so he can keep his superiors happy and stay employed. It’s just like anything else in business. Keep the costs down to a bare minimum and maximize revenue to realize the largest profits. Why would employees be exempt? Business owners (not necessarily your manager) see employees as a consumable and expendable commodity. Why? Because they usually want to make as much money as they can while investing the least amount possible. They start businesses so that THEY can make money (what other motivation would there be?). They didn?t start their business thinking about how they could make a job for you.

Don?t get me wrong ? there are some owners out there that genuinely care about their employees and will compensate them fairly. However, in my experience this is rarely the case. I?ve worked for four people in my life where I was compensated fairly and treated with respect. Two of them ran their own IT consulting companies and the other two were small business owners that saw their employees as an asset and not just a cost. Everywhere else I was treated like $h@t and was subject to the typical ?control costs at any cost? mentality. What is so sad about this mentality is that it runs rampant and usually ends up costing more in the long run than it saved at the outset. It often results in high employee dissatisfaction rates and turnover; not to mention all the other hidden costs the business suffers. A perfect example of those hidden costs are having to do projects over again because they were done as cheaply as possible the first time to save a relatively small amount of money. Ultimately, the project fails and the solution doesn?t deliver adequately. Now the business is faced with rebuilding the whole thing over again at twice the cost. What a waste. Companies with high turnover rates incur huge costs due to constantly having to replace employees that quit in frustration. So are these owners coming out ahead in the end? I don?t know, but it would appear to me that ?you get what you pay for?. I?ve worked for many companies over the years as an employee, contractor and sub contractor. I can tell you first hand, I got way more respect and far more pay working as an independent than I ever did as an employee.

Unless your position is considered part of a “profit center” most owners will do everything they can to strip your department?s funding down to a bare minimum. The reality is that most IT jobs fall into the cost center classification. Of course, if you are working for a company where the products or services they sell are directly related to IT, it’s different because you are now considered a “profit center”. This is why most sales jobs have traditionally had all the perks and the high paying salaries. Why? Because sales generates business, which in turn generates revenue. In some situations, employees who are directly involved in producing the product or service that the business sells are considered a profit center. Everything else (accounting, internal IT, customer service, purchasing, inventory control, shipping/receiving, maintenance, etc…) is usually considered a cost center.

I would take the advice of the original poster to heart. You probably won?t become financially secure working for someone else in your lifetime (unless of course you can make higher than average salary). I see the degree craze as another way for business owners to get the most out of you for the least possible. Ultimately, it?s an excuse to pay a person who doesn’t have a degree less.

If your goal is self employment, who really cares? You don?t need a degree to succeed as a business owner. I don?t have a degree, and quite frankly I?d rather take the $40 thousand plus interest and the precious time it would cost me to get that MBA and start my own businesses. What?s really ironic is that most of the business owners I?ve worked for don?t have more than a high-school education themselves. Guess what? They?re now financially independent. They could walk away from their business tomorrow without blinking an eye and all their needs are taken care of for the rest of their life. If I do it right, I?ll be able to retire and walk away financially secure with no worries. Truthfully, if I were to continue on my current path as an employee making a ?good salary?, I probably wouldn’t even be able to retire. Like the original poster, I am taking control of my future, and building my own businesses. I suggest you do the same if you’re serious about taking control of your life.

I dont have a degree

In reply to listen to 12eagles – he speaks the truth

Alot of my mates from school went off to uni a few years ago (im 23 btw) they got qualifications in computers, accounting blah blah, while i stayed and worked for a small computer place here in my town, well instead of learning computers etc at uni i learnt them first hand – earning money as you earn as opposed to paying money to learn… well long story first, i started my own home based computer repair company i earn more an hour then any of them do and i the only huge debt i have is my mortgage !

self employment is the only way – unless your a lazy bugger – you only earn how much you work for 🙂

True

In reply to Has your education paid off?

Sending everyone to college makes it even worse. There aren’t enough college type jobs for everyone (if you don’t count the outsourcing).I’ve experienced this following graduating from a 4 year as well as with a masters. In IT, managers value personality and politics (because they can pick and choose or not hire at all going with contractors) so much job seekers don’t have a fightin’ chance. it is ridiculous.

Forget it

In reply to Has your education paid off?

I have four different degrees/diplomas in different computer areas. And I’m still unemployed. Why? Too much education and not enough “official” practice from the right places! Bill Gates did the right thing when he dropped out of college. I have done a lot of research into why other have got a certain job and not I. Result: 1. nepotism, 2. personal aquaintances, 3. practice, 4. education. Yes, education comes last. So my advice to You is: tell all Your friends and relatives to help You get a job, forget the direct aproach. Befriend any and all persons You know in the computer business near You.

And it’s not as if I’m not good at anything. I can program, install just about anything, my hobby is repairing laptop hardware, I’m a good listener to problems and I never loose my temper, no matter what someone has done. You really would think that I could get a job, almost any job, wouldn’t You. The world is a strange place. Still, I’ve turned the situation partly to my favor. I never buy any computer hardware, I go to computershops and ask for their computerscraps and broken accessories, repair them and use them. There is not a single computerthingy in my house that I have bought.

So True

In reply to Has your education paid off?

College is worthless as a “price of admission” into the techinical side of IT. My son just graduated with an MIS degree from a “MAJOR” university, and his most valuable class was one where they told him that he didn’t have to show up for class, just go out and get a primary certification. That is reality. Those in the know will go out and get 2-3 certs, and they will find jobs. College will pay off later, as adding to your knowledge in depth, but no, no jobs because you have a college degree. Should have studied Pharmacy if you want that kind of college-to-job quid pro quo!

Grad Degree

In reply to Has your education paid off?

Several years ago, I struggled with the same problem. Do I get my Masters in Computer Science or an MBA? I got lots of advice from both camps, and chose to get my Masters in CS. At the time, I was working at a University, so it made sense. Big mistake – I’ve found my grad degree doesn’t buy me a whole lot in the private sector. Go for your MBA.

It all depends

In reply to Has your education paid off?

It all depends. Having both a PhD and an MBA and worked in the past in a “degree conscious” place, I can only say it all depends. Having an advanced degree and from a highly reputable school gets your foot in the door for the first job. I emphasis, the first job, because after that you are on your own. Your second and subsequent jobs depends on your job history more than your degree. Obviously, networking and alumni connections helps. Furthermore, getting an degree or not depends on the jobs you are after. If your company puts a ceiling on advancement or is “degree conscious” then by all means it is important. I know of companies that automatically give you a salary increase if you earned an advanced degree while under their employment. Mail ordered degree may or may not help. Using my MBA training, you will need to do a cost benefit analysis using the cost of getting the advanced degree, the time you spent getting it, and the incremental benefit in salary and bonus if you do get that degree and you will need to discount the income stream using present value analysis. Then there is the addition “goodwill” part of the equation: if you do enjoy going to school and the prestige associated with having an advanced degree in personal and social settings where the benefits cannot be monetized.
After saying all these, remember a lot of highly success people have no advanced degrees.

Experience is the Key

In reply to Has your education paid off?

I have an Associates degree and have a great position. What gets the attention of HR people the most is experience. I took a few part time positions, before making the leap full time into IT. A two or four year degree with a couple of years experience, and a network + cert or better goes a long way.

maybe, if….

In reply to Has your education paid off?

I got a degree in Networking Technology with a side of cabling/fiber optic technology five years ago and have yet to work in the field. Two things work against me: my age (I’m 50) and the fact that I have children to look after and am therefore less flexible about working hours, relocation, and so on. If you’re young and flexible, by all means go for it, especially if an employer or potential employer will foot all or part of the bill. I’d be a bit hesitant about spending large amounts of cash given the current state of the market….

FAITH = HOPE

In reply to Has your education paid off?

It depends on YOU…..that being said…Unless you
are ready for retirement, more probably yes. You need to keep abreast of the new and very different challenges. Just think or remember how fast technology has developed in just the last 5 years. You need the skills developed from a Masters or PHD, besides once achieved it can not be withdrawn. it is what you make of it. If you are told you are over qualified then what they are saying is you are to OLD!!!

To do a job, you need both…

In reply to Has your education paid off?

To do a job, you have to have both the ability and the credentials. The ability can come from self study, hard knocks, sink or swim, or formal training. But you will never get a chance to demonstrate the skills without the credentials (degrees, certification, documents). So, don’t stop the training and credentials, ever. But you don’t have to spend megabucks.

Life is what it is. It isn’t (1) education, and then (2) work. It’s both, always.

Good luck. Keep your chin up.

Funny you should ask…

In reply to Has your education paid off?

Yeah,
I am so highly trained and specialized as an Anesthesiologist, that when my medical licensure was functionally revoked, I was SUSHI. However, I’ve been able to scramble and rely on my computer experiences and “hobby” over the last thirty years. Engineers are notorious for jobs as bartenders. Many should consider developing sales and communication skills as a safety net. Driving is a great safety net and you have something to think about as you drive, sort of like Einstein in a patent office.

MCSE Training Not Worth it

In reply to Has your education paid off?

… unless I want to move to Bangalore and work for 10 rupees an hour. Only way I paid for the loans for my training was due to an inheritance.

I’m thinking about going back for a music education degree. That or truck driving school, I’m not sure.

Lotsa demand for truck drivers, but

In reply to MCSE Training Not Worth it

I wouldn’t recommend that career path!

I graduated near the top of my class in ’97 at the age of 48. I never found that first IT job. I returned to trucking as a means of paying the bills. I couldn’t BUY an entry level IT job.

Since I can’t find a job, I decided to create my own job. I recently quit driving to start my own web design business.

I also recommend against a music education degree.
My daughter graduated 2 years ago with a BS in music education–she’s still looking for work.

MCSE Training Not Worth it

In reply to Has your education paid off?

… unless I want to move to Bangalore and work for 10 rupees an hour. Only way I paid for the loans for my training was due to an inheritance.

I’m thinking about going back for a music education degree. That or truck driving school, I’m not sure.

It probably matters to your HR when computing salary

In reply to Has your education paid off?

I am in the process of getting my masters, and the company is paying for it.
How it works here….
the hiring manager interviews people he thinks are qualified, and has HR make an offer to the person he chooses.
HR uses a formula (experience, education, past salary, etc) to determine the salary they will offer, so the bottom line is….if you have the experience and are qualified for a position, put a good deal of effort into preparing for the interview with the hiring manager. if he is impressed and wants you to fill his spot, HR will tailor the salary offer to match your qualifications, and you will get a better offer with another degree

That’s a novel approach

In reply to It probably matters to your HR when computing salary

In my experience HR recomend people they think are qualified based on the recomendation of some recruiter. Then someone who know’s their backside from their elbow decides whether HR were talking out of the bendy bit of their arm again.

You get what you negotiate NOT what you deserve

In reply to That’s a novel approach

Hello Tony,

I’m with jer2911tx on this one. You get what you negotiate not what you deserve. So the better prepared you are for the interview the better the outcome (salary offered) will be.

On the contrary, many recruitment consultants have told me that in the good old days it was easier to place someone as they were dealing directly with the hiring manager who would believe everything the recruitment person would say. That’s why you could respond to an ad on Monday and have a letter of offer by Friday that same week.

Nowadays, times have changed. Due to increased corporate governance, there is a procedure in place in that all hiring has to go through an HR person who are harder to sell to than hiring managers. Therefore the recruitment process becomes much longer as a result as all the tick boxes have to be ticked before a candidate is even considered and put forward before the hiring manager.

Cheers,

Raguilar

I need an agent …

In reply to You get what you negotiate NOT what you deserve

… like Terrell Owens. He can be a horse’s @$$ and make millions a year, while I have to watch my step to keep making what I’m making.

Well the hiring manager must have been

In reply to You get what you negotiate NOT what you deserve

a twat then. When a recruiter tells me my name I check the inside of my coat to see if they are still lying.

If you don’t continue your education, prepare to be outsourced

In reply to Has your education paid off?

For many technical fields, you have to continue your education in some way or you will be left behind.
And, if you are not striving to be an asset, you may fond your job outsourced to someone who has the basic skills and can do it cheaper.
Be an asset, don’t just know your job, but the responsibilities of people in other departments. If you are an asset to your manager, he’ll keep you around when layoffs hit.

Careful consideration

In reply to Has your education paid off?

Pursuing a degree can be rather expensive and without careful consideration to the proper degree, a waste of time and money. Not having had the opportunity when young to pursue a degree when I was young, I went for the certification route – to date $20,000 and no degree – most people don’t care about the certification! It’s experience they want, but with the computer industry being so saturated, it’s tough to get a job no matter what route you choose. Try studing for certifications on your own – no expensive schools, as much as possible. There are some good pre-tests available both for a nominal fee and free (although the free ones can waste alot of time if you’re not familiar with the subject matter as they tend to try to repeat test questions they recall from exams but are not always correct with the content.) Having a good work ethic and a general degree in the area you’re interested in is probably the best bet, although employeers began a trend several years ago where they pay college grads the same starting salary as non-college grads. If your living expenses are low though, the degree route will pay the most in the long-run.

Glass Ceilings, Floors, and Walls

In reply to Careful consideration

I have 29 years experience in IT from the largest to smallest shops. I am currently an assistant director of a 20 person IT shop. I do not have a degree and my certifications are long out of date, the hardware and software they were on are in museums if anywhere.

During that 29 years, I have never been without at least 1 job, never fired, and always asked to stay for more money when I moved on.

Having said that, education is always worth more than what you pay for it. Once you have it, it can’t be taken away from you. Jobs are transitory by nature. Even those you create for yourself. Bubbles come and go, and it is the nature of our business to change.

I recently went looking for a CIO to head up our shop. We advertized nationally to get good solid candidates. Everything but that came out of the woodwork.

The number one thing you have to have in business of all kinds, is critical thinking skills. Without them, no certification or degree is worth while. That is why we in industry rely so heavily on experience. If you have demonstrated your competence in anything from help desk to project management, we know you have the needed skills to go with what your resume says you know.

Without sucess being demonstrated, you are a book without a reader. Dead weight. We might take a chance on you if the job you are going for is not very advance, if you are very personable, if our employees recommend you, or if you are related to someone we trust and they speak up for you. So you generally have to start at the bottom, and work you way up, even if you have a degree, or advanced degree.

Having said all of that. When we were looking at candidates, we always valued an MBA over an MS. MS degrees are good for teaching and stepping stones to PhDs. MBA’s on the other hand are useful in running departments, divisions, and working with upper management on strategic planning. Our field changes so fast that anything you learn in college will be obsolete before you can make use of it in the real world. But, if you get a BS, and get a job working as help desk, or as a pctech, then go on to get an MBA, you will rise in any organization that is interested in growing. Hopefully, your organization will also have tuition reimbursement so that the company you work for will help pay for the MBA. Certifications are a bit like degrees but are extremely transitory. Who would pay for a certification in “NT Network Admin” now? If you don’t keep them up, then they are worthless.

That is the glass floor. We will always take experience over newbies, always take degrees over not having them, and the better the degree or certifications, the more likely you will be to get the job.
The glass wall is a little different. Without any degree I’m really locked into the industry (Defense, Communications, Healthcare, Education) where I have all my experience. Transfering to another sector of the economy would be a little rough. I would likely beat out any of you folks straight out of college, but to land a management role in a major manufacturing job would be tough. And any one with even a BS and a little experience in manufacturing would likely doom my chances.
The glass ceiling is really tough. That is internal as well as external. Several years ago, I was asked to perform some regression analysis on customer satisfaction. I created the processes and did the math (that was pretty deep) and got the results. I took them to the CEO and had to tell him: If you want answers, I can give them to you. If you want the answers certified, you’ll have to get a PhD in math to do it. We did. His answers and mine were the same, but his had a PhD behind them.

market is saturated!!

In reply to Has your education paid off?

I have an Associate’s degree, and was promptly told by a Robert Half recruiter that even though I have worked in IT for 30+ years, that he probably would not be able to find me a position because his clients want a B.S. as a minimum, along with 5 yrs exp, and at least FIVE frontline certs. Also that frankly, a Master’s will be required in the not so distant future in IT, because “a bachelor’s is a common as a HS diploma”!

market is saturated (2)!!

In reply to Has your education paid off?

An MCSE without a B.S. and at least 5 yrs of experience will not get you very far either! Tech school advertising stating that MCSE certification will get you a $75k plus job, has dumped so many “paper” candidates on the market, that it along with other certs, are just “candy” on your resume! The most frustrating thing is to see all the “brain dump” and “boot camps” that cram the knowledge in, that most of “those people” forget within two weeks after receiving a piece of paper to hang on the wall! I know non-certed people who can run rings around people with certs. I have worked primarily with pc’s and as400’s, but consider myself adept with Mac’s as well. My employer had a “certfied” Mac person come in to redo 6 Mac’s that I had setup several years earlier, as part of a deal when we purchased 4 new machines. Well, the guy screwed those machines up so badly, the users had me reformat and redo all 10 machines my way, the day after he left.

Dbl MS in MIS/Mngt not worth it

In reply to Has your education paid off?

But then I was in the military when I got them. Currently working as a “lowly” tech support person just to have a job. Jobs I interviewed for previous to this one, I was considered “over-qualified” and could not get an interview. Military background was Avionics (enlisted), then Logistics, Information Systems, Project Manager, Transportation, Environmental and Maintenance Manager (officer), so don’t tell me I don’t have experience. I have done the training for many certs (A+, MCSA, Network, DST, etc.) but don’t bother with the tests. My company does not reward the effort.

Dbl MS in MIS/Mngt not worth it

In reply to Has your education paid off?

But then I was in the military when I got them. Currently working as a “lowly” tech support person just to have a job. Jobs I interviewed for previous to this one, I was considered “over-qualified” and could not get an interview. Military background was Avionics (enlisted), then Logistics, Information Systems, Project Manager, Transportation, Environmental and Maintenance Manager (officer), so don’t tell me I don’t have experience. I have done the training for many certs (A+, MCSA, Network, DST, etc.) but don’t bother with the tests. My company does not reward the effort.

Electronics Shouldnt Be Your Field of Choice

In reply to Has your education paid off?

I came outta school making nine-bucks and hour at Philips Magnavox doing refurb in their Columbus Ohio Facility. That was in 1992 and today, I make 14/hr. I have seven yrs of college and recently started studing to get my first CISCO certification. All this after not being able to get a real job. Whats really funny is that the schools are still preaching how great electronics degrees are. What is sad is that people are just jumping at the chance to go. I can honestly say that electronics isnt where the money is at. Instead, nursing seems to hold the most value with computer science running a close second. All this is my personal opinion but I have had many years to observe.
I now work for a very large global company with assets out the ying-yang but im still only making 14 dollars per hour. What is worse is that some people here make even less. Somewhere on the scale of 10 dollars and hour. One tech told me, after being hired, that the placement offfice at his school told him not to come here because the company sucked. Well they were right and there is no end in sight for declining wages. India is producing 250,000 engineers/yr and these people are bright. My friend, on the other hand, gos to ITT (which i thought was a good school) his math and physics classes were taught by television. Now how are you suppose to learn physics without some lab work? Whats worse is that i have to work with this guy and hes an idiot when it comes to electronics.
Well all i can say is that the USA has to settle down and that as long as China and India are breathing and as long as electronics keeps shrinking and getting cheaper, we are all in for a long recession/depression in the tech fields. This hurts me big time because i owe 30,000 dollars to uncle sam for my education. I make 30,000 a year and thats with overtime. Lucky for me that i got in under the wire for a bankruptcy. Too bad it was to late to include my student loans which i should have been grandfathered in on. Oh well, there is only one promise in this life and that is death. So at least i have that to look foward to. Best wishes to all you 4.0 students, in the future it may be the only thing that will get you hired. Peace out to all my brothers in the field.

MS in IT

In reply to Has your education paid off?

In my particular instance, it has not paid off. In my situation, I find that the IT field has flattened out, requiring fewer managers and more technicians and specialists. Even the education requirements for our positions have been reduced over the ten years i had worked at a local university. It seems to be the case that a high school education; with experience, and a desire is all that is needed to work in the IT field. After ten plus years at the university, I am finding that reorganizations and jobs are realigned to offer less money and require less education and experience. Our organizational structure is one with an overall director, three associate directors, six workgroups leaders and ninety plus workers. I find myself after ten years at my last position to be realigned into the position I began working in. Am I overqualified, yes. I am tempted to think that I know more than the leadership and have become a threat to them. As I review their education, I find that many of them have degrees in History, Sociology, and Home Ec. Weigh very carefully all options for your particular situation before investing time and money into an advanced degree. An advanced degree does not mean an automatic promotion.

I only invest in books

In reply to Has your education paid off?

I have been in IT for 15 years. I am 43. I have taken a few classes, mostly paid for by my company. You have to have a aptitude for the work. All of the certificates and degrees will not make up for the fact that you just dont have the knack for the day to day IT world. I hire, and the first thing I look for is that natural aptitude, second, people skills, and last formal education. The first 2 will take you farther my opinion.

Papers Prove IT-NOT!

In reply to Has your education paid off?

Having a degree will only ensure an entrance to industry unless you’re into research and development there is no need for another degree. If you’re in IT you gotta know that keeping abreast with your knowledge is imperative but that does’nt mean you would need the papers to prove it. Nowadays its only experience that counts. I have a Bachelor of Technology degree in IT and a B.Com Informatics and industry labels me as “OVER QUALIFIED” – Damn them!

sucks

In reply to Papers Prove IT-NOT!

sorry to hear that but maybe you can make that your new resume title on monster…

Over Qualified Application Developer

lol

Degree = Stamp of Approval

In reply to Has your education paid off?

I hate to say but a degree is becoming mandatory yet I believe that many IT managers overlook individuals who have many years of experience yet no degrees, which I believe is unfair.

Yet, the argument from them would be that they are protecting themselves and the company from certain issues in the future. My friend has a BA in computer science and he got a job right out of college. I mean literally, he got his degree, next day he was working at a marketing agency. In a way, degree’s do give you some benefits yet they don’t know say anything about a person’s experience in the real world of IT.

Real world IT scenario – IT guys/gals WITH many years of experience, no degrees – on the phone trying to help a customer/executive with minimal amount of information will succeed because we know exactly what they are talking about because that is how WE learned to fix PC’s/Servers/Networks etc.

IT guys/gals with some experience, a degree, just out of college, trying to help a customer/executive will probably put the person on hold a minimum of 4 times before finally understanding the problem and than finding a solution. Real world experiences are hardly taught in colleges. These so called “real world experiences in college” are scenarios based on facts and events that have already taken place.

IT is changing by the seconds and there is not one book, article, magazine, website, etc. with the latest news/updates that can keep us ready for a disaster that has never taken place.

To sum up, degrees are just a stamp of approval which say, “Yeah, he/she is “qualified” to work with certain applications/hardware yet not really ready for the real world”. I’ve experienced many scenarios on which I have not found information. For example, at my last job, my manager and I did a domain split for which we needed 3 Microsoft Techs to help us because they didn’t even know how to begin the process yet it took almost a week to complete the project.

If you want a degree for bragging rights, go ahead, that’s what I’m doing but from an IT Tech perspective, your experience will speak for itself.

It’s up to you…

In reply to Has your education paid off?

I do not have a degree, though I have some certifications and I’m in a senior network position.
Why do you want to go into any field?
What does your heart tell you? Follow it.
Then figure out what you need to get to your destination. Check with current employers and ask what qualifcations they are looking for and for what types of jobs. Learn where you want to go and how to get there.
These answers will tell you what path you should take. Remember their are many paths to the same destination and they are all correct.

Check with current employers!!

In reply to It’s up to you…

I definitely agree with this advice…. if you’re in a position, now… and like the company… then ask your own HR people or your supervisor and his/her supervisor what they are looking for in employees who want to move up within the company…. this will show them that you’re interested in improving yourself and that you want to obtain the most usable training for your money… they may have something they can recommend and maybe your company even has funding for continued training for employees and all they have to do is ask… go for it… what do you have to lose??

Master but too old

In reply to Has your education paid off?

I have done IT work for the past 15 years and lost my job last March. The company I was working for decided they could hire contract labor cheaper than having me on staff. I went back to school and got my B.S. and then my Masters but i have found that i was too old with too little experience to get the good jobs and too educated for employers to consider me for most other jobs. If you are young, just out of high school or college and wanting to get ahead maybe more education would help you but be careful of getting too much education so that empoyers won’t talk to you because they precieve you as wanting too much for them to have an interest in you.

Masters Needed

In reply to Master but too old

I came out of the DOT COM crash in Washington. I did not have a college degree of any kind. After three years of doing contract work, I finally decided to go back to School and finish up a BS degree. I was unable to get a job due to the oversaturation of people with my skill set. And most employers were only looking at those with College degrees.

So I returned to finish up my BS degree. As I was taking to recruiters, they are seeing most companies requesting people with Masters Degrees. So I am currently extending my schooling an additional year to obtain a Masters Degree.

I already have several companies that are interested, and want to talk to me as soon as I finish my Masters.

worth it?

In reply to Has your education paid off?

Depends on if you can get in with a good company.

Yes, the tech market is oversaturated with people who are “technical” (notice…I did not say competent).

I’ve seen more truly ignorant people with CCNA, CNA, MCDBA and MCSD after their name in emails than I can count.

I haven’t had a cert since Novell 4.0, yet I can administrate an MS server better anyone who just bought $200 of MCSE books and studied and passed the tests to get the title.

The market has put too much emphasis on certification versus actual knowledge. I remember CompUSA would not hire me to work on PCs about 5 years ago when I got laid off in the tech market downturn because I wasn’t A+ certified…even though I’d been working on PCs (building, repairing, upgrading) since the 8-bit ISA slot and MFM drive technology was the latest.

Me…with 10 years PC tech experience…couldn’t get a $9 an hour job…because I didn’t have a piece of paper saying A+ says I know what I’m doing. Go figure.

Needless to say…the bachelors in IS and CS has been going stale since the early 90s. Even then, we were told in college to get an MS degree by some professors and that the BS or BA degree was becoming more worthless by the year.

How, you can study for 6 months, take 5 cert tests, and be considered to know how to do the job…rather than actually having done it.

Of course, that’s a typical business mentality…make as much money as you can while delivering the cheapest, minimum amount of product your customer will tolerate.

good luck with the dilemma though. I’d tell you if you want to do IT…get the MSc in MIS and go into consulting.

What does this say about you then?

In reply to worth it?

If you KNOW you can’t get that job without the piece of paper, yet you CHOOSE not to get that piece of paper, what is this saying about YOU?

Fact is, the people that generally do the hire/fire don’t know tech. They just know that they spent a lot of time getting a degree, and it furthers their own self value to emphasis how important a degree is.

A Cert is SUPPOSE to show you have specialized skills. It is the fault of MS mostly that certs DON’T mean you actually know something. Now that they are adding in MARKETING knowledge in what is required, it takes even more away from the technical knowledge you are suppose to have.

The REAL problem is that the people that write the certs are not basing it on real world examples.

Of all the certs out there, the Redhat and the CCIE DO carry weight. Get that CCIE and you can plan on 6 figures.

Yes, it paid off.

In reply to Has your education paid off?

I have a master in computer information systems and work for public section. The degree is a key for career success. I got $12 per hr without a degree when I work in a private company. Now I’m able to pay off my student loan ($55K) in 5 years. The IT staff will be in demand in the near future.

Depends on you!

In reply to Has your education paid off?

For me, it’s paid off and then some.

However, you must decide where you want to go with your career. If you go back to school and get your degree (bachelors or masters) and only apply for positions that are similar to what you do now, why bother??? Because it should give you a competitive edge, that’s why!

Maybe you have already answered your question by stating that the job market is already saturated with college grads. I don’t believe that is true coast-to-coast in the USA because everyone is still claiming there is a shortage of technology workers in the USA.

I’ve stated this elsewhere already (right Tony H.?). What separates you (without a degree) from those college grads? Experience? Salary? I know, it’s your smile!

I’ll bet that many (at least some) of those college grads will have as much experience or more. Maybe you’ll work for a lot less, which should/could tell you something about the employer, right?

In either case, you are competing against them for positions. If the hiring manager gets 100 resumes will he/she call each one? Fat chance!!

50 of those people have similar experiences and of those 50, 25 have degrees. In other words, 25 of the people have both the experience and education. Honestly, where would you start if you are the hiring manager?

It depends on the school and the degree

In reply to Has your education paid off?

I went back to school about 3 years ago. I went to Devry University and got a degree in IT. It has not paid off. Several people that I have interviewed with said that they did not think much of Devry. If you decide to do it, make sure that the school has a good reputation. Also check on the school’s support structure for after you graduate. Do they have a placement office or an alumni association to help with finding a job? The type of degree you get will be important. What’s hot now may be dead a year from now.

Some yes, some no; some ways yes, some ways no

In reply to Has your education paid off?

Bachelor’s – absolutely. Went to a great school, learned all kinds of stuff, especially how to learn.

Law school – learned how to work on no sleep, read 500 pages a night, write well. Otherwise a waste. After all, who wants to be a lawyer?

Master’s – absolutely. Did it in computer science, and again learned to do research on my own. Good experience, although it was difficult while working fulltime.

Wish I had: gotten an MBA with a quant focus instead of the JD. But I was an anti-business bias

Has it paid off in $$? Probably not, but in terms of job & personal satisfaction, etc., yes.

For $$ — go for the business degree (not marketing). Protects you from offshoring, too.

AS maybe, BS definitely, higher not so much

In reply to Has your education paid off?

Even when I was back in the corporate world doing office work, all the postings I saw wanted somebody with a college degree — and most of the time they specified a bachelor’s degree (associate’s degree is associated with trade schools and junior colleges; HR departments are not impressed). So I would advise anybody seeking a job nowadays to seek a degree first (BS/BA preferred). Once you’re in the field, your employer will usually support further professional education (i.e. MS, PhD if appropriate, high-level certifications) so I wouldn’t recommend a job seeker cut straight to the master’s unless (s)he has some reason to believe his/her prospective employer will demand a master’s degree to get in the door.

someone said….

In reply to Has your education paid off?

“you can’t get your hair cut in China.”

My employer would contract out my job if they could do so and keep the doors open. Not because they don’t like me but because the bottom line rules– even if it is a somewhat fuzzy line. I “probably” won’t lose my job to outsourcing because I have to “be” there, on site, hands-on, fixing things and taking care of problems minute by minute. My employer can’t go off-shore because that would be nonsensical in this field, and that is the key to long term empoyment (you can’t get your hair cut in China).

The hands-on thing (experience) is often more valuable right now than “more” formal education. Really, if you can get the hands on experience the education will be there for you.

Droan or Capitalist?

In reply to Has your education paid off?

Lets see, Dell, Gates ,Sir Richard, any body I this line up have a degree? I could be wrong but the last resource I looked at says NO.
These guys took there talents and applied it to what they loved and things worked out.
If you spend all your time preparing to work for someone else than expect to do just that.
I’m not saying that education is a bad thing I’m saying what is that your goal in life?
It’s o.k. to work for someone else and you will most likely have to do this even short term to save capital to move on to your next step. But if your going to get a degree so you can get in the door to work for somebody, that’s not going to pay you what your worth anyway, well, I’ll stop there.
I’m not trying to be pessimistic.
Find your talent and be the best you can be regardless of what it takes and what method you use to get there

When I went to school I was paying $30 semester hr now with my daughter it’s $400 semester hr. Her degree plan, at the present job market value, puts her making around $25,000 when she graduates. Investment of $80,000 plus for a degree that’s great but she’ll need to come back home and live with mom and dad to be able to pay her bills and be able to eat.

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