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Headhunters

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Headhunters

Ironspider
Ok, I'm sure this title has been used 100 times on here already, but being a headhunter myself, I'd like to make a few points.

1. Only about 20% of the positions in companies are actually posted, whether it's on the web, newspaper, forums, newsgroups, or what-have-you. The other 80% includes things such as exclusive job orders for certain recruiters, inner-office job orders, not currently funded job orders, and not currently brought to the attention of HR.

The exclusive job orders are given to headhunters that have built up a solid career of finding the kind of people that the hiring manager wants and are not shared with the public.

Inner-office should be self explanatory.

Not currently funded orders are just that, the budget hasnt been set yet, but HR has shared this job with recruiters as something that may happen in the future, thus the recruiter will try to find someone that fits to tempt the company into allocating money for that person.

Not currently brought to the attention job orders are such things as someone in the company is sitting there thinking "hmmm, if only I had such and such, I'd goto HR and request this position to be filled." Many times recruiters will present someone to a company and Bing! that person will be like "Hey!, I was just thinking I could use someone like that."--Instant fill of a job that didnt exist yet.

2. Recruiters can always call and talk directly to hiring managers. There's none of this submit to the company and hope your resume doesnt get lost or tossed because your cover letter didnt impress someone, and there's none of that "Login in to submit your resume here" (What? I have to create an account and fill out 16 pages of questions just to submit my resume?)

3. Any recruiter that doesnt spend at least 30 minutes to an hour exploring opportunities with you, finding out exactly what you do, what you want, and how the recruiter can make this happen, is worthless and do not work with them. Numerous IT recruiters [the ones I've had experience with at least, but not all of them] are just in it to quickly find a fit or to try to force a position on to a candidate.


So anyone that wants to continue to speak out against headhunters and say that there is no use for them, you're only selling yourself short.
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    JamesRL

    1. Depends on the company...
    I've worked in many companies where all full time jobs are posted, and most contract jobs are posted. In my company, no one talks to a headhunter about a job until the requisition has been approved, so there is money allocated to hire.

    Having said that I was almost hired by another company(well known), but they left the req till last and things changed - they acquired another company and all new hires were suspended. I know the manager was keen to hire me, and we were all frustrated, but I could wait a year.

    2. In my company, and others I've worked in, HR starts the process once the job has been approved, and I only work with headhunters once the job description has been sent.

    3. I've had lots of experience with headhunters calling me at home with a hot lead and wanting to forward my resume on. I've never once had an interview unless I've met with the headhunter and spent time with them.

    There are good headhunters and bad ones, same as any profession.

    James

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    Tony Hopkinson

    have I ever dealt with the head hunter of the type you claim to be.

    I've dealt with shed loads of the ones you don't want to be associated with though

    Based on what you've said ,you are the exception. You are selling yourself short by describing yourself as one.

    Most of them are pimps who can't use word search correctly, failed badly at geography and know less about IT than my dog.

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    Ironspider

    If you'd like, I can interview you in depth sometime.

    But before you say yes, know this:
    1. I'm not on this site to drum up business.
    2. IT is a minor discipline for me, therefore I'd have to schedule you for a weekend.

    And before someone jumps on what I just stated under #2, "IT is a minor discipline for me" is correct as far as business goes. However, it's a major hobby for me when I have time. I have no IT related degrees, but can program in Cobra, lpc, html (w/o cheating), and have built every computer I've owned from scratch.

    [[And now you're all thinking Cobra? WhoopieDo! I can program in C/C++/Pro*C/Visual C++.NET, VB.NET, Java (J2EE), Javascript, HTML, LAMP, PHP, Hibernate, XML, Korn/Bash Shell Scripting, ERWIN 4.1/3.5/3.x, Oracle Designer, ETL tools Informatica PowerCenter 7.1.4/7.1.2/6.2/5.1.2, PowerMart 7.1.4/7.1.2/6.2/5.1.1/5.0/4.7.2, ETL, ETI, OLAP, OLTP, Data Reports, Cognos Impromptu, Power play 6.6/7.x, Oracle 9i/8i/7.x, MS SQL server 2000, SQL, SQL Plus, PL/SQL, SQL Loader, TOAD 8i, Unix Shell Scripts, Developer 2000, HTML 4.0, Sun Solaris8, and HP-UX.]]

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    Tony Hopkinson

    and had to pass on the job, there's at least two of them I have no experience in you see.

    Here's a simple test

    Unmissable opportunity.
    London based firm requires a developer, three years experience in Visual Studio 2005 and .NET experience (.net 3 a bonus), must know SQL or SQL Server, ASP, PHP, HTML, Java or Javascript. Great chance to progress your career up to 23k.

    Then send it to a guy who started commercially in 1987 with no gaps in his CV.

    Points awarded for the number of errors in the above.

    Oh and my cv concentrates on what I've achieved , not what with. I've had to headhunt myself most of the time.

    I note you are US based, so foresee potential difficulties in a business relationship.

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    mdhealy

    I've seen headhunters from both sides. In 1998 I was hired at my current employer through a headhunter, and in 2005 my wife was hired at her current employer through a different headhunter. Since 1998 I've also interviewed a number of candidates for positions with the Company. I've also had conversations and email exchanges with various headhunters. As with any profession, they vary.

    Readers should be aware there are two main types of headhunter; the most expensive for the employer are "retained search" companies who are hired by an employer to fill a specific slot. Other headhunters interview candidates and then shop them around to possible employers. The thing to remember about a retained-search firm is since they are looking for a specific profile, you will either fit it or not fit, and if you don't fit that specific profile they will not spend much more time on you.

    Also, in most cases a retained search firm gets paid X dollars up front, X more on hire, and a final payment after the employee has been working there for a while; I believe the headhunter who found me for my current employers in 1998 got their final payment from my employers a year after I was hired.

    As with any profession, the good ones ain't cheap (for the employer, the candidate doesn't pay).

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    Ironspider

    I'd have to agree, the cheap and cheesey "recruiters" that charge flat fees or 10-15% of the first year salaries are a dime-a-dozen. They burn through candidates like toilet paper squares dipped in a lava stream. If you have the skills (or anything remotely similar) they want to speak to you now. They'll tell you where you need to go, what salary you'll be paid, and when you need to be there. If you have a problem with any of this, that "recruiter" will never speak to you again (this doesnt stop future "recruiters" from the same agency calling you for future jobs, only to discard you like used gum if you don't fit.) In short, they have a job and need an assembly line of people to fill it.

    Real recruiters charge 27-33% fees from the companies. We call someone and ask for all their worldly desires in a new position and actually search for that position. Now don't get me wrong, most recruiters don't sit around calling everyone in the phone book to find a person to find a job for; the majority of the time we'll search for people to fit a position, but if a candidate doesnt fit, s/he isn't discarded, but interviewed to find out what the candidate wants. For instance, I just did a search today, called roughly 2 dozen people to try to fill this position: 3 candidates fit the requirements and desired the position; 8 were left a message; 10 fit the requirments or came pretty close but didnt desire the position and were either interviewed on the spot as to exactly what kind of future position would make them happy or a future interview time was scheduled; and the other 3 were completely not a fit and were either interviewed on the spot as to exactly what kind of future position would make them happy or a future interview time was scheduled. Therefore I picked up 3 people to submit to the position and 13 new passive candidates for future positions, all with a 2-4 page interview on file. The 2-4 interview page allows us to make a perfect match between the hiring manager/company and candidate [sorry to sound like a dating site].

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    Tony Hopkinson

    They farm cvs.
    wordsearch them with wider and wider criteria to get a hit.
    Bulk email the lot of them
    Then wait for the spammee to ring back and tell them if they think it's a good match.

    When the bubble was growing my phone was non stop, now it's either a mailshot, or me hitting the job posting sites and ringing the recruiter.
    The latter is how I've got the bulk of my jobs.
    Even being inactive on the market for two years I still average about 10 email shots a week.

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    mdhealy

    I have a brief biography ready, then when a recruiter cold calls I can ask for what details they are willing to provide about the opening and send them just the bio. Only in the event of serious interest will I send an actual CV. The bio gives them sufficient information to judge what sort of positions I might fit in future, but ensures I'll be in the loop before they can send my CV to an employer, which gives me a little more control.

    Actually, most of my experience with the search process is from the employer's end rather than from the candidate's end, since for two people in their forties my wife and I have rather little experience with jobhunting. As an undergraduate I went to about four on-campus interviews, was hired, worked for a few years, then went to grad school. Out of grad school I went to Yale Medical School where I was a Postdoc for a while, until a headhunter found me there in 1998 and I started with my present employers. In the meantime, my wife (whom I met in grad school) got her first real job through a faculty contact, then worked as a freelance editor for five years before getting her current job through a headhunter. So I have never actually done a real job hunt myself, and my wife has done one real job hunt.

    But during the same period I've been on the employer's side of many searches. When I was a grad student the faculty in my department actually took our input into their hiring decisions quite seriously so we participated fully in the process of selecting new faculty. And since 1998 as an industrial researcher I have interviewed numerous applicants for various openings.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    Enough jargon get to hit in a search but enough accomplishments etc to catch the eye of those who don't know what it means or even better for those whom a string of key words indicates naff all.

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    Tig2

    But some input for you.

    I use recruiters- hopefully for good and not evil. They can be great partners in my search for the next contract.

    That said, I was contacted by a guy today- about two hours after I had accepted an offer and start date. The work he was contacting me with had very little to do with my actual skill sets. I have actually spoken with other recruiters about this opportunity and KNEW it was not a match.

    I offered to send his contact and req to others that I know to be in the active market and better fits. When I received his note, it was bitter and sarcastic. I don't need that.

    I personally am a bit tired of Indian companies that insist on sending me their reqs for $20 an hour on crap (read no benefit, no hire) "opportunities" that I would have to relocate several states to take when I am not even remotely suited to those reqs. And $20/hr is not even a conversation starter.

    I am a tad tired of companies that are willing to drag my tail all over creation and not even begin to follow through on the crap they brought me into the interview process to discuss.

    I have a short list of recruiters that I will talk to. I am sick of being badgered on my cell- killing minutes that I pay for- by some person that can't comprehend "no". Anyone else can talk to my voice mail.

    I am good at what I do. Being a contractor isn't a sign of being a wh*re. I am really tired of it being taken so.

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    Ironspider

    I completely agree. And just for the record, I'm sick of other "recruiters" calling me up and asking if I have anyone that'll work in LA/NY/Chicago/Other high cost of living city for $15-20/hr.

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    Tig2

    If a recruiter badgers me, I can take them off the Christmas card list and go on with my life. You likely don't have that luxury as you need to be able to network with those recruiters.

    I appreciate that you read my post and responded to it. You are the face of a recruiter I would work with.

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    Ironspider

    It really depends on the recruiter and how annoyed I get. I've told a few of them which end of the pier they can go plumment off.

    Well, if you find yourself looking, I can look, until then, I'll continue to read and respond.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    you, you were over valuing yourself Tig ?
    Happened to me, turned out he'd put me forward before he rang me.

    Then the b'stard told me he had my best interests at heart. X-(

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    Tig2

    And in a similar situation. When the company wanted to interview, the recruiter discovered that I refused. Wonder how he explained that to the company.

    I also had one badger me for nearly an hour on my cell because I had to reschedule an appointment with the company he was representing. I had called to reschedule just as soon as I got out of the hospital as I had a rather severe case of pneumonia. Now if his people contact me, I hang up.

    You aren't over valuing yourself because you know what you bring to the table. And accepting less- unless you have a darned good reason- only hurts you in the end.

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    JamesRL

    Because when I went to the interview I was honest in how I answered the questions.

    It turned out not to be a good fit. I think the interviewer saw me as a threat because I indicated that I was not only able to do the job, but able to do more(without asking for more money). I didn't make it a demand, but indicated I would be interested a couple of years down the road.

    So the recruiter saw their $$ going down the drain and used much colourful language. Needless to say in the ten years since, I have told lots of people to stay away, and when I am recruiting I never would use them.

    James

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    Ironspider

    I came really close to yelling at a candidate once. He looked superb on paper, two outstanding and excellent phone interviews. Company flew him across the country to do a face to face interview. He aced the interview. The company not only extended the job to him, but actually offered him a step up position with higher compensation. The candidate went in to fill out all the appropriate paperwork...on the floor. He laid down on the floor in front of the VP in his office to fill out the paperwork! I was not pleased.

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    rclark

    I had a recruiter contacting me every couple of days asking me to take positions that just were not in my experience/salary range. I told him no repeatedly.

    Finally, he got lucky and hit on a job that was pretty close to perfect for me, but at a salary that was just marginally better than what I was getting.

    So I told him that I was interested in interviewing for it. The interview was over the phone. The company was an international, and so I started to take it seriously, but with relocation and having to make my bones again, I wanted everything locked down.

    So I wrote up a list of what I had to have to make the change. He calls back and says no company is going to agree to this. You have to take what they offer. At that point I told him to call back when he had a client that could match what I had on the list. He hasn't called back since.

    If you go into a relationship expecting to have to conform to their expectations, you will. If you go into it with a realistic idea of what will make you happy, and they live up to the agreement, you have no kick coming.

    You said it sounded like matchmaking. Lots of jobs last longer than marriages today. So don't appologize for trying to make sure the two parties are compatible.

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    Ironspider

    It helps if the candidate is willing to be flexible in their demands though. For instance, if you need a base salary of 85k and the company counters with 75k base + commission + 20-40% quarterly bonuses, and you absolutely, positively will not budge on the base of 85k, more than likely no one will want to talk to you. Having a good relationship with the hiring managers, good recruiters can often negotiate a common ground for both parties.

    Then there's days like today: I called a manager that has about 12 years of general manager experience and asked I could interview her then. She agreed and after talking to her I knew this was going to be a star candidate. Further in, she was asking for a base salary of 30k + commission. My client is looking to pay base of 60-85k + comm. So I actually had to talk her up

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    rclark

    There are some things like salary you can bend on. There are others that are deal breakers. The problem comes in when the items that are not negotiable are ignored or agreed to in bad faith.

    Then a messy breakup is coming, only the timing is in doubt.

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    Tig2

    Bend where you can but don't bend till you break.

    I have had situations where I took less for a job I knew should pay more. The advantages were that I could improve an existing skill set and didn't have to worry about the next bowl of Friskies.

    I clearly recall remarking to a recruiter friend near the end of 1999 that the bubble would break and over-paid people would discover that they were over paid. I never thought that those of us who had kept our salary expectations in alignment with national averages/skill set/accomplishments would also get nailed. I was very wrong.

    Earlier, our original poster likened the process of job matching to a "dating site". Close. More like a marriage broker.

    My fiance worked for the same company for over 28 years. That company split him out to a new company but working in the same location. He put up with a lot of cr@p projects and still got RIFT'ed when they decided that he was too expensive.

    Now he is back at the same company that split him off. When that company kicked the split off to the curb, they thought that he would stay with them. It took a year or so to get him back.

    I think he is making a major mistake but it is his career. I think he should have gone elsewhere, he doesn't. I support his choice.

    His career has been a marriage. Not just dating, a marriage. He knows the faults, he is willing to accept them, and just gets on. As a contractor, I may not understand that, but I do respect it.

    And it tells me that our marriage will be a good one. I don't have to worry about him- he's as loyal as they come.

    An interesting connection.

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    andrewwilliam333

    Thanks for explaining this topic and I am impressing.
    =========================================
    Andrew William

    Job Openings

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    aredirection

    There have been studies that match this phenomenon.
    Adler (1985) ?consumers initially select an artist at random and, by chance, one artist ends up with more patrons than the rest, and this initial advantage leads to new consumers preferring that artist and existing consumers switching to him or her?. Substitute Agent for artist to get a sense of what might be going on.
    The problem roughly equates to lots of managers tend to use certain agencies because other managers have used them and therefore they are a known quantity. The value or quality of service is subjective and difficult to measure so it becomes a leap of faith by the manager looking for an agency.
    The problem in Australia is that there are barriers to entering the market creating a very inefficient market, and for some unknown reason HR likes to outsource this stuff so they can?t be blamed for any bad decisions. I believe this is the same if not worse in the US and the UK where the margins enjoyed by agencies are much higher which reflects an inefficient market. My current agency works as a payroll only; I have to find the job and they hold the contract and look after workers comp etc, and they charge a rate that is less than 7% to do that. I have had other agencies charging me out and taking close to 50%. That is just rude. When an agency does that; it is not my services that become too expensive, it is their margin that has put them and me out of work.
    The other problem is that most ads are placed by HR staff, whom have little to no idea about IT. IE SQL experience is the same as SQL Server experience, ETL is the same as Datastage, Data Modelling is same as using Erwin once, etc ad nausea. Therefore someone who has 10 years data modelling experience on other tools will not get past the agent or past the HR staff member even though the technical manager looking for staff would love them. IE a good manager knows a good data modeller can learn Erwin within an acceptable period; however an inexperienced data modeller will create all sorts of havoc. But this is not understood by the HR staff or the agents. It is disheartening when you know a position is right up your alley but can't get past the fool who doesn't know the difference between an Architect and a Technician.
    This is not a transparent or efficient market and therefore it will not work efficiently or effectively. However, that is what we have to live so we might as well get used to it.

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    JamesRL

    1. Depends on the company...
    I've worked in many companies where all full time jobs are posted, and most contract jobs are posted. In my company, no one talks to a headhunter about a job until the requisition has been approved, so there is money allocated to hire.

    Having said that I was almost hired by another company(well known), but they left the req till last and things changed - they acquired another company and all new hires were suspended. I know the manager was keen to hire me, and we were all frustrated, but I could wait a year.

    2. In my company, and others I've worked in, HR starts the process once the job has been approved, and I only work with headhunters once the job description has been sent.

    3. I've had lots of experience with headhunters calling me at home with a hot lead and wanting to forward my resume on. I've never once had an interview unless I've met with the headhunter and spent time with them.

    There are good headhunters and bad ones, same as any profession.

    James

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    Tony Hopkinson

    have I ever dealt with the head hunter of the type you claim to be.

    I've dealt with shed loads of the ones you don't want to be associated with though

    Based on what you've said ,you are the exception. You are selling yourself short by describing yourself as one.

    Most of them are pimps who can't use word search correctly, failed badly at geography and know less about IT than my dog.

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    Ironspider

    If you'd like, I can interview you in depth sometime.

    But before you say yes, know this:
    1. I'm not on this site to drum up business.
    2. IT is a minor discipline for me, therefore I'd have to schedule you for a weekend.

    And before someone jumps on what I just stated under #2, "IT is a minor discipline for me" is correct as far as business goes. However, it's a major hobby for me when I have time. I have no IT related degrees, but can program in Cobra, lpc, html (w/o cheating), and have built every computer I've owned from scratch.

    [[And now you're all thinking Cobra? WhoopieDo! I can program in C/C++/Pro*C/Visual C++.NET, VB.NET, Java (J2EE), Javascript, HTML, LAMP, PHP, Hibernate, XML, Korn/Bash Shell Scripting, ERWIN 4.1/3.5/3.x, Oracle Designer, ETL tools Informatica PowerCenter 7.1.4/7.1.2/6.2/5.1.2, PowerMart 7.1.4/7.1.2/6.2/5.1.1/5.0/4.7.2, ETL, ETI, OLAP, OLTP, Data Reports, Cognos Impromptu, Power play 6.6/7.x, Oracle 9i/8i/7.x, MS SQL server 2000, SQL, SQL Plus, PL/SQL, SQL Loader, TOAD 8i, Unix Shell Scripts, Developer 2000, HTML 4.0, Sun Solaris8, and HP-UX.]]

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    Tony Hopkinson

    and had to pass on the job, there's at least two of them I have no experience in you see.

    Here's a simple test

    Unmissable opportunity.
    London based firm requires a developer, three years experience in Visual Studio 2005 and .NET experience (.net 3 a bonus), must know SQL or SQL Server, ASP, PHP, HTML, Java or Javascript. Great chance to progress your career up to 23k.

    Then send it to a guy who started commercially in 1987 with no gaps in his CV.

    Points awarded for the number of errors in the above.

    Oh and my cv concentrates on what I've achieved , not what with. I've had to headhunt myself most of the time.

    I note you are US based, so foresee potential difficulties in a business relationship.

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    mdhealy

    I've seen headhunters from both sides. In 1998 I was hired at my current employer through a headhunter, and in 2005 my wife was hired at her current employer through a different headhunter. Since 1998 I've also interviewed a number of candidates for positions with the Company. I've also had conversations and email exchanges with various headhunters. As with any profession, they vary.

    Readers should be aware there are two main types of headhunter; the most expensive for the employer are "retained search" companies who are hired by an employer to fill a specific slot. Other headhunters interview candidates and then shop them around to possible employers. The thing to remember about a retained-search firm is since they are looking for a specific profile, you will either fit it or not fit, and if you don't fit that specific profile they will not spend much more time on you.

    Also, in most cases a retained search firm gets paid X dollars up front, X more on hire, and a final payment after the employee has been working there for a while; I believe the headhunter who found me for my current employers in 1998 got their final payment from my employers a year after I was hired.

    As with any profession, the good ones ain't cheap (for the employer, the candidate doesn't pay).

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    Ironspider

    I'd have to agree, the cheap and cheesey "recruiters" that charge flat fees or 10-15% of the first year salaries are a dime-a-dozen. They burn through candidates like toilet paper squares dipped in a lava stream. If you have the skills (or anything remotely similar) they want to speak to you now. They'll tell you where you need to go, what salary you'll be paid, and when you need to be there. If you have a problem with any of this, that "recruiter" will never speak to you again (this doesnt stop future "recruiters" from the same agency calling you for future jobs, only to discard you like used gum if you don't fit.) In short, they have a job and need an assembly line of people to fill it.

    Real recruiters charge 27-33% fees from the companies. We call someone and ask for all their worldly desires in a new position and actually search for that position. Now don't get me wrong, most recruiters don't sit around calling everyone in the phone book to find a person to find a job for; the majority of the time we'll search for people to fit a position, but if a candidate doesnt fit, s/he isn't discarded, but interviewed to find out what the candidate wants. For instance, I just did a search today, called roughly 2 dozen people to try to fill this position: 3 candidates fit the requirements and desired the position; 8 were left a message; 10 fit the requirments or came pretty close but didnt desire the position and were either interviewed on the spot as to exactly what kind of future position would make them happy or a future interview time was scheduled; and the other 3 were completely not a fit and were either interviewed on the spot as to exactly what kind of future position would make them happy or a future interview time was scheduled. Therefore I picked up 3 people to submit to the position and 13 new passive candidates for future positions, all with a 2-4 page interview on file. The 2-4 interview page allows us to make a perfect match between the hiring manager/company and candidate [sorry to sound like a dating site].

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    Tony Hopkinson

    They farm cvs.
    wordsearch them with wider and wider criteria to get a hit.
    Bulk email the lot of them
    Then wait for the spammee to ring back and tell them if they think it's a good match.

    When the bubble was growing my phone was non stop, now it's either a mailshot, or me hitting the job posting sites and ringing the recruiter.
    The latter is how I've got the bulk of my jobs.
    Even being inactive on the market for two years I still average about 10 email shots a week.

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    mdhealy

    I have a brief biography ready, then when a recruiter cold calls I can ask for what details they are willing to provide about the opening and send them just the bio. Only in the event of serious interest will I send an actual CV. The bio gives them sufficient information to judge what sort of positions I might fit in future, but ensures I'll be in the loop before they can send my CV to an employer, which gives me a little more control.

    Actually, most of my experience with the search process is from the employer's end rather than from the candidate's end, since for two people in their forties my wife and I have rather little experience with jobhunting. As an undergraduate I went to about four on-campus interviews, was hired, worked for a few years, then went to grad school. Out of grad school I went to Yale Medical School where I was a Postdoc for a while, until a headhunter found me there in 1998 and I started with my present employers. In the meantime, my wife (whom I met in grad school) got her first real job through a faculty contact, then worked as a freelance editor for five years before getting her current job through a headhunter. So I have never actually done a real job hunt myself, and my wife has done one real job hunt.

    But during the same period I've been on the employer's side of many searches. When I was a grad student the faculty in my department actually took our input into their hiring decisions quite seriously so we participated fully in the process of selecting new faculty. And since 1998 as an industrial researcher I have interviewed numerous applicants for various openings.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    Enough jargon get to hit in a search but enough accomplishments etc to catch the eye of those who don't know what it means or even better for those whom a string of key words indicates naff all.

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    Tig2

    But some input for you.

    I use recruiters- hopefully for good and not evil. They can be great partners in my search for the next contract.

    That said, I was contacted by a guy today- about two hours after I had accepted an offer and start date. The work he was contacting me with had very little to do with my actual skill sets. I have actually spoken with other recruiters about this opportunity and KNEW it was not a match.

    I offered to send his contact and req to others that I know to be in the active market and better fits. When I received his note, it was bitter and sarcastic. I don't need that.

    I personally am a bit tired of Indian companies that insist on sending me their reqs for $20 an hour on crap (read no benefit, no hire) "opportunities" that I would have to relocate several states to take when I am not even remotely suited to those reqs. And $20/hr is not even a conversation starter.

    I am a tad tired of companies that are willing to drag my tail all over creation and not even begin to follow through on the crap they brought me into the interview process to discuss.

    I have a short list of recruiters that I will talk to. I am sick of being badgered on my cell- killing minutes that I pay for- by some person that can't comprehend "no". Anyone else can talk to my voice mail.

    I am good at what I do. Being a contractor isn't a sign of being a wh*re. I am really tired of it being taken so.

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    Ironspider

    I completely agree. And just for the record, I'm sick of other "recruiters" calling me up and asking if I have anyone that'll work in LA/NY/Chicago/Other high cost of living city for $15-20/hr.

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    Tig2

    If a recruiter badgers me, I can take them off the Christmas card list and go on with my life. You likely don't have that luxury as you need to be able to network with those recruiters.

    I appreciate that you read my post and responded to it. You are the face of a recruiter I would work with.

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    Ironspider

    It really depends on the recruiter and how annoyed I get. I've told a few of them which end of the pier they can go plumment off.

    Well, if you find yourself looking, I can look, until then, I'll continue to read and respond.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    you, you were over valuing yourself Tig ?
    Happened to me, turned out he'd put me forward before he rang me.

    Then the b'stard told me he had my best interests at heart. X-(

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    Tig2

    And in a similar situation. When the company wanted to interview, the recruiter discovered that I refused. Wonder how he explained that to the company.

    I also had one badger me for nearly an hour on my cell because I had to reschedule an appointment with the company he was representing. I had called to reschedule just as soon as I got out of the hospital as I had a rather severe case of pneumonia. Now if his people contact me, I hang up.

    You aren't over valuing yourself because you know what you bring to the table. And accepting less- unless you have a darned good reason- only hurts you in the end.

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    JamesRL

    Because when I went to the interview I was honest in how I answered the questions.

    It turned out not to be a good fit. I think the interviewer saw me as a threat because I indicated that I was not only able to do the job, but able to do more(without asking for more money). I didn't make it a demand, but indicated I would be interested a couple of years down the road.

    So the recruiter saw their $$ going down the drain and used much colourful language. Needless to say in the ten years since, I have told lots of people to stay away, and when I am recruiting I never would use them.

    James

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    Ironspider

    I came really close to yelling at a candidate once. He looked superb on paper, two outstanding and excellent phone interviews. Company flew him across the country to do a face to face interview. He aced the interview. The company not only extended the job to him, but actually offered him a step up position with higher compensation. The candidate went in to fill out all the appropriate paperwork...on the floor. He laid down on the floor in front of the VP in his office to fill out the paperwork! I was not pleased.

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    rclark

    I had a recruiter contacting me every couple of days asking me to take positions that just were not in my experience/salary range. I told him no repeatedly.

    Finally, he got lucky and hit on a job that was pretty close to perfect for me, but at a salary that was just marginally better than what I was getting.

    So I told him that I was interested in interviewing for it. The interview was over the phone. The company was an international, and so I started to take it seriously, but with relocation and having to make my bones again, I wanted everything locked down.

    So I wrote up a list of what I had to have to make the change. He calls back and says no company is going to agree to this. You have to take what they offer. At that point I told him to call back when he had a client that could match what I had on the list. He hasn't called back since.

    If you go into a relationship expecting to have to conform to their expectations, you will. If you go into it with a realistic idea of what will make you happy, and they live up to the agreement, you have no kick coming.

    You said it sounded like matchmaking. Lots of jobs last longer than marriages today. So don't appologize for trying to make sure the two parties are compatible.

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    Ironspider

    It helps if the candidate is willing to be flexible in their demands though. For instance, if you need a base salary of 85k and the company counters with 75k base + commission + 20-40% quarterly bonuses, and you absolutely, positively will not budge on the base of 85k, more than likely no one will want to talk to you. Having a good relationship with the hiring managers, good recruiters can often negotiate a common ground for both parties.

    Then there's days like today: I called a manager that has about 12 years of general manager experience and asked I could interview her then. She agreed and after talking to her I knew this was going to be a star candidate. Further in, she was asking for a base salary of 30k + commission. My client is looking to pay base of 60-85k + comm. So I actually had to talk her up

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    rclark

    There are some things like salary you can bend on. There are others that are deal breakers. The problem comes in when the items that are not negotiable are ignored or agreed to in bad faith.

    Then a messy breakup is coming, only the timing is in doubt.

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    Tig2

    Bend where you can but don't bend till you break.

    I have had situations where I took less for a job I knew should pay more. The advantages were that I could improve an existing skill set and didn't have to worry about the next bowl of Friskies.

    I clearly recall remarking to a recruiter friend near the end of 1999 that the bubble would break and over-paid people would discover that they were over paid. I never thought that those of us who had kept our salary expectations in alignment with national averages/skill set/accomplishments would also get nailed. I was very wrong.

    Earlier, our original poster likened the process of job matching to a "dating site". Close. More like a marriage broker.

    My fiance worked for the same company for over 28 years. That company split him out to a new company but working in the same location. He put up with a lot of cr@p projects and still got RIFT'ed when they decided that he was too expensive.

    Now he is back at the same company that split him off. When that company kicked the split off to the curb, they thought that he would stay with them. It took a year or so to get him back.

    I think he is making a major mistake but it is his career. I think he should have gone elsewhere, he doesn't. I support his choice.

    His career has been a marriage. Not just dating, a marriage. He knows the faults, he is willing to accept them, and just gets on. As a contractor, I may not understand that, but I do respect it.

    And it tells me that our marriage will be a good one. I don't have to worry about him- he's as loyal as they come.

    An interesting connection.

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    andrewwilliam333

    Thanks for explaining this topic and I am impressing.
    =========================================
    Andrew William

    Job Openings

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    aredirection

    There have been studies that match this phenomenon.
    Adler (1985) ?consumers initially select an artist at random and, by chance, one artist ends up with more patrons than the rest, and this initial advantage leads to new consumers preferring that artist and existing consumers switching to him or her?. Substitute Agent for artist to get a sense of what might be going on.
    The problem roughly equates to lots of managers tend to use certain agencies because other managers have used them and therefore they are a known quantity. The value or quality of service is subjective and difficult to measure so it becomes a leap of faith by the manager looking for an agency.
    The problem in Australia is that there are barriers to entering the market creating a very inefficient market, and for some unknown reason HR likes to outsource this stuff so they can?t be blamed for any bad decisions. I believe this is the same if not worse in the US and the UK where the margins enjoyed by agencies are much higher which reflects an inefficient market. My current agency works as a payroll only; I have to find the job and they hold the contract and look after workers comp etc, and they charge a rate that is less than 7% to do that. I have had other agencies charging me out and taking close to 50%. That is just rude. When an agency does that; it is not my services that become too expensive, it is their margin that has put them and me out of work.
    The other problem is that most ads are placed by HR staff, whom have little to no idea about IT. IE SQL experience is the same as SQL Server experience, ETL is the same as Datastage, Data Modelling is same as using Erwin once, etc ad nausea. Therefore someone who has 10 years data modelling experience on other tools will not get past the agent or past the HR staff member even though the technical manager looking for staff would love them. IE a good manager knows a good data modeller can learn Erwin within an acceptable period; however an inexperienced data modeller will create all sorts of havoc. But this is not understood by the HR staff or the agents. It is disheartening when you know a position is right up your alley but can't get past the fool who doesn't know the difference between an Architect and a Technician.
    This is not a transparent or efficient market and therefore it will not work efficiently or effectively. However, that is what we have to live so we might as well get used to it.