Hardware·18,997 discussions

Interesting quote

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?I sincerely believe the banking institutions having the issuing power of money are more dangerous to liberty than standing armies? – Thomas Jefferson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsZO6G7dfpI
or
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=america+freedom+to+fascism

I’d like to see your comments regarding the video.

Is there a law requiring American workers to pay taxes? If so, can you produce it in writing?

Thank you

Topic

Hmmmm. Lots to think about!

In reply to Interesting quote

Thank You for the link, this is a long but ‘must watch’ video.

Think fast

In reply to Hmmmm. Lots to think about!

Bush To Be Dictator In A Catastrophic Emergency

http://www.roguegovernment.com/news.php?id=2169

I tried…

In reply to Think fast

to get a conversation about the martial law thing going back in March: http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=213913&messageID=2188376

It got a grand total of six replies (not counting my own of course). =(

I’m with you though, I won’t give up. Someday, people will look beyond American Idol and take an interest in the important things.

B-) If I find more time I’ll post a few replies over in your link

In reply to I tried…

It’s nice to know people who aren’t going to give up.

I’m with you.

You and I could’ve talked about martial law a long time ago.

Question: What’s the difference between ignorance and apathy?

Answer: I don’t know and I don’t care. (old joke -sorry)

It was accepted

In reply to Think fast

This bill was supposedly accepted and signed in last night. But, in order for this to become effective the US has to be in a situation,
A. During wartime the War Powers Act is deemed ineffective. This would entail massive infrastructure damage to the US government. Basically, parts of the government have become destroyed or are no longer able to operate. Such as the entire Congressional committee has been wiped out due to an “unfortunate” event like a terrorist explosion. Really though, how unfortunate could that actually be.

B. A Catastrophic Emergency such as a natural disaster would be handled in this manner only after means, such as martial law, can no longer provide sufficient aid to the citizens or its government. The step would be FEMA/Red Cross goes in first, then the national guard (we all know how helpful that was). Followed by Martial Law. In the event that Martial Law fails all decisions that need to be made to end the crisis shall be designated solely by the President or acting President of the US. Its not really a bad deal. Instead of everyone pointing fingers at who’s to blame and getting nothing done everything shall be handled by one individual who has been deemed by the majority of the citizens the most fit to handle the situations, good or bad, of the country.

Honestly, the US needs a dictator. The representatives and congressmen have gotten so corrupt and greedy that the US needs to get rid of em. Democracy based governments have never lasted and what we see in the US today is why they don’t last. Something needs to be done. Even if Bush becomes a dictator, how long do you think he well be in power given his popularity? Don’t think anyone has anything to worry about there.

Good to see a new face along with an opinion

In reply to It was accepted

Good job Brownie errr… I mean tryten

Ugh!

In reply to Good to see a new face along with an opinion

That avatar blinking is cute — once, but it doesn’t encourage me to read your posts! Blech!

Who was Morse?

In reply to Ugh!

What’s the name of my avatar/picture?

Who else did something similar in the past and was successful??
I have zero expectations but I like my picture. For now anyways :^0
Everybody laugh g’head but keep thinking.

What does my picture look like when opened with TheGIMP . Is there any place to insert text? What about “Save As”?

Don’t forget to tell your loved ones that you care…

How much do you really know about me and my past? How much do you just assume you know?

Edited to add the avatar:

re: blinking

In reply to Who was Morse?

I can’t stand to look at it long enough to work out the Morse code. It gives me a headache — so I try to arrange for it to be scrolled off-screen while I read your posts.

Sure are a lot of pix in my pix account aren’t there?

In reply to Ugh!

Why? :0

SOS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_code

In reply to Sure are a lot of pix in my pix account aren’t there?

…
—
…

News

In reply to Sure are a lot of pix in my pix account aren’t there?

flash. Think about it. :^0
Hint: N A V Y

Double post

In reply to Ugh!

.

Sorry about the avatar. I really am but I HAVE to talk

In reply to Ugh!

to a guy I know in person here and I lost my contact point with him. I dropped the link along with my real-life address on his virtual doorstep and I damnsurehopeheunderstands.

I’ll yank the avatar after he gets his fat ass over here pronto and pdq. Not before. Sorry all.

Edit: Updated profile.

Good to see that you…

In reply to Sorry about the avatar. I really am but I HAVE to talk

.
Good to see that you have corrected your Morse code. Your avatar used to be signalling S-M-S.

P.S. I noticed… 🙂

I kinda figgered you

In reply to Sorry about the avatar. I really am but I HAVE to talk

to be one of those brainiac types and I’m REAL glad to see you over here. Let me get you a bottled water. 😐
Free to you.

Speaking of avatars.

In reply to Sorry about the avatar. I really am but I HAVE to talk

I forgot where to go to change my Uncle Sam one. I’ve only been there once, and I am new here. Can you help me?

To change your avatar, go to …

In reply to Sorry about the avatar. I really am but I HAVE to talk

[b]My Workspace[/b] > [b]Profile[/b] > [b]Edit Profile[/b] > [b]Section 2 Photo[/b].

There you can either provide a URL pointing to an image of your choosing, or select from TR’s stock library.

I know that you are capable of thinking for yourself. :D

In reply to Hmmmm. Lots to think about!

And I also expect this discussion to go to at least 5 replies…

Maybe not. 🙁

Edited: Sue me

Don’t give up

In reply to I know that you are capable of thinking for yourself. :D

…until Monday afternoon! If there are not 10 replies by eob Monday, [b]then[/b] call this topic a dud. But wait until then.

I’ll never give up.

In reply to Don’t give up

It just disturbs me a ?little bit?.

I wonder how many people will even take less than 3 hours time to watch the videos I’ve posted here. I’ve spent YEARS trying to figure out the big picture. Maybe NOW I finally understand why things never looked right to me.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003

Edit: I’m puzzled as to why my broadband connection was suddenly throttled back. I’m sure it’s just a coincidence. I’m sure it’s just a coincidence. I’m sure…

“Keep stepping forward. Share your discoveries. You will make new friends. You are not a conspiracy theorist, but part of a whole.”

We are all in this together.

Sorry for the reply so far

In reply to I know that you are capable of thinking for yourself. :D

ut after viewing something like this I often check on some facts before voicing an opinion either way. Usually this takes a bit of time.

There was a lot in that video to think about as well. From income taxes not being legal to GWB creating powers for himself to the Federal Reserve things to world govt……. And in between there were many lesser items as well.

When I see something like this I usually try to determine which parts are false or partially false, which are prove-able, and afterwards determine if I think that I should share it with others.
After seeing it, I do think that everyone should watch it, and judge for themselves. But before picking it apart and reviewing it, the movie just pisses me off. Not for the knowledge that it passes on, but if the content is correct (mostly).

Pissed off?

In reply to Sorry for the reply so far

Dang patriot!

== paying attention.

In reply to Pissed off?

Keep up the good work, Ropes!

Keep thinking Sir

In reply to Hmmmm. Lots to think about!

You’ll get it.

Lol, I have had a lot on my plate recently

In reply to Keep thinking Sir

but every time I dig a bit, I come up with more issues…..
really, just little ‘other’ things to add to the pile. Maybe I am looking in the wrong places, but there is a lot to take in on short notice. I must have been ignorant of many things before. They are revealing themselves everytime I get on the Internet all of a sudden. just a few searches using random keywords…
In fact, I just pulled up a site that listed in some places, how a person is considered a terrorist. Like publicly dis-agreeing with anything the govt. is ‘for’. If the wrong people see or hear you, you are now in a database listed as a possible terrorist!!!
yes, lots of looking up I have been doing. First it was to try to disprove some things in the video, but that did not lead anywhere except more questions. I am afraid that this may take more time than I had originally thought…

The funny part, I was trying to disprove some of the ‘smaller’ accusations from the video rather than the large ones. This is because usually in these types of shows, the smaller stuff is not researched well and/or can be easily dis-proven. Te larger issues are usually well documented on both ‘Pro’ and ‘Con’ sides.
Anyway, usually I form my own opinions and do not chat too much about it anyway until others are ready as well. But in this case, I have not found a starting point…..except….paranoia!
And from what I have been reading, the income tax thing is not nearly as big an issue as some of the others… But it would be a good start on reversing some of the bigger issues.

Paranoid?

In reply to Lol, I have had a lot on my plate recently

You ain’t seen nuthin’ yet… To paraphrase what SleepinDawg (whatever) says: just cuz you’re paranoid doesn’t mean that they’re not out to get ya’.

Use google to check out eco-terrorist’s for just one thing. There’s big money in it. follow the money.

I hate video links

In reply to Interesting quote

I have some setting somewhere hosed and can’t view them. I need to just bite the bullet and reload this darned thing.

No, there isn’t a law. There never has been. There have been many groups in the past who have successfully protested paying taxes on the basis of the lack of law and failure on the part of government to prove the constitutionality of income tax.

Government is WAY too big for the britches we give it. Real ID, micro-chipping people, the ever increasingly large hand in pocket, even to the point where a former president is not allowed to give his opinion when asked. To me, all evidence that this administration will not gracefully exit the White House. And that government has run amok.

And what will we replace these current idiots with? More idiots, unfortunately. “Sheeple” have never been more prevalent than they are today. They mistakenly believe that we need MORE government, not less. They honestly believe that legitimising criminals is a good plan. They think that micro chipping people is a good thing.

I believe that we can choose the world we want to live in by making better choices. We may not achieve that world but at least we would be doing SOMETHING instead of decrying the fact that we are accomplishing NOTHING. But even there, I am apparently wrong. Silly me, at least I was willing to TRY. AM willing, even though I may be wrong for doing so.

You point out the apathy that seems to have infected a great nation. I don’t get it either. We seem to be willing to give up our individual rights, believing (however wrongly) that to do so will somehow make us safer.

I don’t get it, I am not destined to.

When I see biblical prophesy coming true before my eyes, I begin to think that going somewhere- anywhere- else is a good thing and possibly the only thing that can save my a$$. Quite sad, really.

Thanks, Tigger2 you said much of what I was thinking. But

In reply to I hate video links

I always have a problem with this kind of documentary, most are using a fear factor. The facts that were presented I have seen most of them before. I did think they did an interesting job of presenting them all together.

What really needs to be answered is if we do not use income tax to pay for services, then how do we pay for them? I am not saying the way we have is the only one, but we do need them. No one should argue with the need for a strong military or disaster funds. But there are thousands of other services that are needed, especially for the ones that cannot afford these on there on. From due process of law to deadbeat dads.

I am only saying, while I am in favor of bringing all injustises to the forefront, but bring alternate ways to pay for them. We may not have been given a choice in how we pay for them now, but what way would we be willing to pay for them. (Which service we are willing to pay for is a whole other topic.) 🙂

Dad

edited to be able to get off soapbox.

You don’t have to get off your soapbox as far as I’m concerned.

In reply to Thanks, Tigger2 you said much of what I was thinking. But

Since you’re talking to someone who has previously filed personal bankruptcy any answer I provide, (including my intelligence, character, integrity and even the contents of my refrigerator), should be suspect.

I’ve been told by people (?) here at TR that I need to take Economy 101 classes too, so I’ll decline even trying to supply a solution.

I would like to ask a couple of simple questions though:

How exactly do we pay for services now?

What’s the likely end result?

I just can’t figure out the answers for those questions and I’m unable to provide links.

Isn’t it always nice when our elected officials go on TV to supply the drama and heroism we all crave by signing a piece of paper producing a Billion dollars for any given cause. It’s even nicer when a Billion dollars was proposed but they make it two Billion dollars because they’re really nice people and it’s a really good cause.

The thinking seems to be that having the money to pay for whatever the ?desire/need of the day? is the sum-total solution for any problem. It isn’t.

To illustrate the point that my providing a solution that everyone (anyone?) would believe was going to work and be fair I’ll recall a scene in the first movie that I thought was chilling. I’m positive that a lot of other people wouldn’t view it the same way I do. Maybe you’ll remember it.
Our beloved President was admiring the fact that one woman works three different jobs to make ends meet. I think his quote was, ?It’s the American way idint it?.

Certainly she’s to be admired for her efforts but the chilling aspect to me, was that our beloved President wasn’t horrified that the woman works three different jobs to make ends meet. If that’s ?the American way? we should all become debt slaves.

Hmmm…

I’ll get back to you on our need for a massive military industrial complex and see if I can find my link to how disaster funds are spent.

Edited by me to remove images.

Link to images provided below:
http://www.sasi.group.shef.ac.uk/worldmapper/display.php?selected=279

http://www.sasi.group.shef.ac.uk/worldmapper/display.php?selected=288

Hmmm nice military graphs :D

In reply to You don’t have to get off your soapbox as far as I’m concerned.

I hope things are much better now, after the bankruptcy.

Military

Nevermind the current politics. We need to keep a strong military, when we do not, things elsewhere in the world go against us. Before World War II, the US wanted peace. Still remembering WWI, even with Europe and South Pacific showing aggression, the US people did not want to get involved. Our military was weak for the times. It took a drastic act (Pearl Harbor) to change minds in the US. Had the Japanese navy kept coming, instead of turning back, they could have taken over a portion of western US. Now days we have much bigger guns, but all conflicts will need military men and women to fight.

As was said in another post, the tax issue is very complicated. We mostly see what is presented on the media, but there are thousands of other things our taxes take care of. Who will fix the pothole in the street infront of your house? Who will prosecute the person that broke in your neighbor’s house? Well, you get the thoughts. The Federal Gov takes care of big issues, but the local affects us more.

There is also waste in all parts of government, just more glaring in D.C. 🙂

No DadsPad. Things are much worse for my country

In reply to Hmmm nice military graphs :D

I’m fine and surviving everything so far but my country is going to hell in a hand basket.

Have you watched both videos beginning to end?

Have you read through all of the material?

Where does it all fall apart for you because for me it all fits frighteningly well.

I’m not here to promote any agenda. Period. End of story.

People might be laughing their asses off at me and that’s fine. Just view all of the material and think on it.

Just THINK people THINK. You are still free to think.

The quote above from Thomas Jefferson has shown to be very true.

Confused! Is LA in a different country? :^0

In reply to No DadsPad. Things are much worse for my country

OTR, I am not laughing at you. The videos used the truth to its own ends. These facts have been in the news before. The only thing I had a hard time with was the interviews with people that listed themselves as working for the IRS and going puplic against their employers.

Our country has fought wars to preserve our freedom and way of life. It disturbs me more to see people willing to give up those freedoms and let others control their life. There will always be dangers in the world, as there always has been. I don’t want our country to become a bunch of scared rabbits looking for a wolf to protect them.

Dad

Opps, there is the soapbox out again. I am kicking it under the table now. 🙂

Couple of points

In reply to Confused! Is LA in a different country? :^0

Ropes is not in LA. Don’t ask how I know that, but I do. There is no place called “Breast Cancer 3 Day Walker” in any state in the 50 I call home, either. Obfuscation is a requirement, sometimes.

Anyone can spin anything they like to their own ends. Not a first, won’t be a last. But truth can find it’s way out of the spin and stand on it’s own.

Since the 80’s that I am aware of, groups have protested the tax machine and tried to get people to listen. Often to no avail. They were branded “Un-American” and largely ignored. Even the IRS ignored them because the IRS didn’t care. They were freaks and wierdos- why should anyone care? Until those freaks and wierdos started representing a larger share of the tax burden. Then the IRS cared.

And honestly? I know people who work for the IRS. I know a couple who have protested. No one cares.

We are willing to give up our freedoms on a daily basis, it seems. Can we all say “Real ID?” No one cares and many will fight for it.

I have been in the position to try to use some of the “services” that I had been paying taxes for. I was the wrong colour and the wrong level of irresponsibility to get help. And the help I DID receive, I am paying back.

There is a problem in this country. It is a deep problem and it is pervasive.

All Ropes is saying is “Think about it”. I think he’s right, but that’s just me.

Edit- I missed an “s”

Tigger, I did not mean to imply

In reply to Confused! Is LA in a different country? :^0

that the link should not be read or that people should not be aware of what is happening in our country. Quite the opposite.

In fact, it would be very good to have a lot of people see this documentary so the next presidential primary and election will have a lot of attention and voters turn out to stop the trend set now.

In the documentary, one of the disturbing things was the injection of tracking device under the skin of employees. [Actually the same thing can be done with ID badges easier.] Even with politics aside, the internet accelerated more information being available to more people than ever before; very personal information. Cell phones will have GPS traking in them; more cars are being bought with GPS driving instruction hardware; OnStar service can track your car, should anyone (like police) be interested, are just a few.

What I am saying is that viewing the documentary will make you angry, scared or, possibly, disbelief. When the same thing is coming from a different directions (which may not be considered bad).

Dad

kicking soapbox under table, again 🙂

Hey Dad

In reply to Confused! Is LA in a different country? :^0

I guess my point was that the truth can be told in a variety of ways.

I watched both videos. I flatly disagree with the points made in the 9/11 vid. I know engineering and I know aircraft. The fault had nothing or little to do with the fires, had everything to do with the architecture of the buildings. If you destroy enough of the supports in balloon architecture, it fails and it fails in exactly the way that the buildings came down. It fails from above the damage line and downward in a reasonably straight progression. I can tell you all about why that happens but would likely end up putting your teeth to sleep.

At the end (darn, Dad- did you send your soapbox here???) 9/11 theory isn’t the crux of the point. This country has been doing wrong stuff for a long time now. And they want to do worse.

And no- documentaries are not my only source of information. This country has been in deep do-do for a long time. And it really doesn’t take much to scratch off the pretty wrapping and see the seething mass of maggots that has been “powering” things for quite some time.

I think that people should be inflamed. But I also think that they should be inflamed enough to get off their collective and DO something.

In another thread, I asked “what kind of world do you want?” But I was also asking what you were willing to do to reach that world. I want a world without breast cancer. I am tired of living with that particular threat. I am willing to take action. I raise $$$, walk 60 miles in 3 days and am trying to find my way through the insurance nightmare to finally have the prophylactic mastectomy that has been recommended for the last year. Will that give me a world without breast cancer? Nope. It will give me a ME without breast cancer and out from under the sword of Damoclese that I have been living with, and let me think that I am doing the right thing… or at least trying.

This country HAS become a bunch of scared rabbits, convinced that RFID chipping is a good thing and believing that the almighty government will save our collective fuzzy tails. I find that I can’t verbalise my level of disgust with this. My mommy told me not to say those words.

You want your soapbox back?

Howdy ma’am

In reply to Confused! Is LA in a different country? :^0

Great! You got to watch ’em and draw your own conclusions. B-) 😡

I have a post to Absolutely further down the thread that you might want to look at.

I am seriously making three tracks right now. Long day and I didn’t get much of anything done besides exchanging contact points with a few newly-found friends blah blah blah.

The high-point of my day was talking for hours at length with my ol’ ex-Marine, LEO bud (mentioned below) and his wife. LeoBud has been the counties arson investigator for 23 years after receiving Federally funded and continuous training. You’d like the guy. Speaks his mind and picks apart every single movie or TV show with blistering yet entertaining comments. “WTF! They just shot six rounds in an enclosed room and now they’re whispering to each other?” Cracks me up.

Since he has broadband I loaded the bookmarks for the videos on his PC and expect a scathing, uninterested party, review. I’m going to record video of his review for my review. The I’ll record my review of his review, for his review. ?:|
(On to Infinity, Awaaay!!!) ?:|

I’m about tuckered out. 🙂

I am genuinely looking forward to what he has to say. I worked with him and have entrusted my life to him on several occasions.

He says the current crop of cops aren’t anything like the old bunch. “Tase ’em first, talk to ’em later.” He refused to carry a taser and fought the department over it and won. Said he didn’t need it ’cause we’re people, not cattle. Nice guy, ’til he gets pissed off.

There doesn’t appear to be a local office for the presidential candidate I support which is JUST FRICKIN’DUCKIE NOW, ain’t it?

I’ve got other work to do right now so I’ll get back to ya’ on the whole shmole later.

“Stay tuned while we pause for this commercial break from Mega-Corp.” 😡

Laugh if you want to.

In reply to Confused! Is LA in a different country? :^0

The yoohoo you yoohoo into the woods is the yoohoo you get back. :^0

Keep thinking Dad. Not meant to imply that you have to reach any particular conclusion.
I’ve reached one for myself. Doesn’t have to be the same one you reach.

In fact I value critical thinking and it’s important enough to me that you don’t tune out alternative viewpoints like people are wont to do and that you continue to think on what I think may be relevant points.

I don’t believe I’ll ever feel a need to tell you or anyone to leave my thread alone and pout that I don’t want to talk to you no more . :^0
Not that I can think of any particular free speech proponent that does that, a lot. :^0

Sorry but I gotta go.

Peace

Interesting times

In reply to Confused! Is LA in a different country? :^0

“May you always live in interesting times”

Don’t recall who came up with that one but just about now, I would like to wring his neck.

I live in a townhouse development with lots of kids. We are a quiet community that doesn’t want problems. This evening, a pair of kids found it necessary to come through our neighbourhood at about 70 MPH. Posted is 30. Most of us never exceed 20. Anyway, these sh*theads found it necessary to take out both the street sign and the lightpost (oh good, live wires in the street) and then race off. They came back after switching drivers (you can see a lot from the second floor about 30 feet away) and realising that they left the license plate from the car behind.

So what has this to do with the price of tea, you ask?

Simple.

It is yet another symptom of what is going wrong with the country. And before I hear from anyone telling me that “kids will be kids”… NO. I never in my life did anything so recklessly irresponsible as to race through a residential area, potentially endangering lives.

We all ran out of our homes fearing that someone was hurt. Many of us with cell phones talking to 911. I grabbed a med kit on the way out. In retrospect, should have grabbed a wire kit. We were all certain that this person must have taken someone out.

I can hear the light tones of my neighbours talking- even at 10:12 at night. My neighbours walk their pets and are active in the area until late at night. I immediately thought of the two year old who lives next door to me.

Fortunately, no one was hurt. The street marker and light were the casualties. The neighbourhood almost feels normal again.

Except that I have a lingering feeling of not feeling even the modicum of safety that I had a few hours ago. I feel more vulnerable, less secure.

And I ask myself- even challenge myself about the fear.

I feel more fear because the world is increasingly more dangerous. Crime rate aside, there is less and less that you can reliably hang your hat on. What a pity that is!

Have no clue where I was intending to go with this. Just wish for the times when I could go sleep in the living room of the non air conditioned house I grew up in in Southern California and know that it was okay that the front door wasn’t closed and locked. I deplore what has been lost and wish that I could find a way to get some of that back.

It’s pretty sad when bedtime conversation is if, and which, gun is loaded. But that is what we have become.

I want a better world.

DE-Personal note below.

In reply to Confused! Is LA in a different country? :^0

Who controls “the media?” Why?

Remember Elementary school? (chants followthemoneyfollowthemoneyfollowthemoney)

The root cause/base analysis for any answer/action on your part would start with a critical thinking process: who, what, where, when, why and how?

Another aside and personal note to Dad: With only a very few exceptions I very much admire folks that don’t get off of their soapbox and show that they can get pissed off. B-)
Rant away my friend. I want and need to hear your voice.

Where was I? Hmmm… There used to be a public, town-square, Aussie soapbox-type display of free speech, open to ridicule, occasionally abused, or is that gone now too. (don’t stop thinking)

> Any and all y’all Aussie peacemonger-ish types and any other interested people can feel free to chime in here, or anywhere for that matter and post argumentative viewpoints.

Is anybody out there? (echo) is anybody out there?

Personal note to DE: Unbeknownst to you. I’m working on getting free DVD’s into your hands but it’s going to take a few seconds/minutes. You are not forgotten.

Ma’am

In reply to Confused! Is LA in a different country? :^0

Have you checked my unwavering profile for clues lately?

TiggerTwo, keep the soapbox :^0

In reply to Confused! Is LA in a different country? :^0

I have a closet full of them. My kids would take them away not to hear me 😀
Why can Moms always be heard, Dads must talk to blank stares. 🙁

I agree with you on the 9/11 vid. I just did not have your expertise. I remember the TV experts explaining this just after it happened. They said the same thing you did. (I am seeing the dentist a lot lately and my teeth are asleep too much there 😀

On ‘what kind of world do you want?’ thread, I posted to that one. Generally, I am more upbeat about the future. The RIFD they want to insert in everyone, I don’t believe will happen. When it is happening to someone else, most people are apathetic, or at best uninformed. Look at Child Labor up until the late 19th and early 20th century.

http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/childlabor/

Until photos were published where people acually saw the conditions and resentment of the children, did anything happen. Today we have much faster news and information, including the internet. Why do you think countries (and our own military in the Mid-East) are restricting internet access?

See I told you I had more soapboxes!! :^0

I have not spoken about cancer, except to state I support you. Now I will.
1. I know I can never fill the way you do about this disease. I do want you to know I do care about you with all my heart.
2. I believe, strongly, that the pharmecutical companies will find a cure for any disease they can make a substantial profit on, cancer being one of those.
3. Anything you do to fight Cancer is very worthwhile.

As far as fear in our society. There has always been good and bad at any time in history. There is no excuse for what those kids did to endanger life recklessly, but their parents probably drive the same way. I did not drive that recklessly when I was young, but did know plenty of kids that did. I do not condone it, just that this is not new.

Don’t believe things used to be worse, look up when birth control (the pill) was available for the public. Before that being pregnant without marriage was bad, but having a baby out of wedlock was a very serious matter. I know there are many other problems, but that one, up to then affected every woman.

Does anyone want a used soapbox? Slightly worn, good price. :p

Dad

For the same reason that the grass is always greener on the other side!

In reply to TiggerTwo, keep the soapbox :^0

[i] TiggerTwo, keep the soapbox

I have a closet full of them. My kids would take them away not to hear me
Why can Moms always be heard, Dads must talk to blank stares.[/i]

News flash: We are no more, or less, attentive to either parent. We ignore you both when you say things we don’t feel like hearing!

:^0

Dad, you will never know

In reply to TiggerTwo, keep the soapbox :^0

How your reply has touched me. I am daily amazed that I still find people like yourself- loving, feeling, THINKING people who just have a capacity for seeing the good in the world. You truly “go placidly amidst the noise and haste” and desire to see the greatness in individual effort. I wish that I had your point of view. Somehow, and perhaps with time and desire, I will.

Your job as a father is to manage to your children’s expectations. You won’t do that, but you’ll try. My fiance and his son have what I thought to be an odd relationship. What I have learned is that they love each other very much but they don’t demonstrate that in the way I expect. So who has the wrong expectations? Well, me, obviously. I love my father very much. I have tried telling him that but still have no idea if he knows. I’m an old fart now, but am plagued with not knowing if my father understands how much I love him. And yes, he got his share of blank looks when I was younger.

I have some real fear about the RFID thing. It sits on two fronts. They ARE doing it today with the theory that it will be a boon to Alzheimer’s patients. Perhaps it will. But I see other and more sinister uses of the technology. And starting there has the value of insuring that the practise will not be questioned closely- after all, it will HELP these people. Oddly enough, I know a quadriplegic that wouldn’t put up with being tagged like that… even if it would “help” him.

President Carter proved this week that you may not dissent against this administration. When pressed for his opinion, he finally gave it, “I think that this administration is the worst in history”. His personal opinion, nothing more. Nothing with teeth, an opinion reluctantly given. For his effort, he has been shredded by the White House for having an opinion, along with rather personal attacks on HIS presidency.

Now I don’t think that Carter was a great President. I thought he was ineffective on a great many fronts. I think that people were hungry for change and thought that he would bring that.

I also think that Carter is a person of great integrity. He is a man of values that I can respect, and principles that I understand. He is the guy who, in his private life, has contributed greatly to a program that serves as a hand up, not a hand out. He only wants to serve his fellow man and has demonstrated that in many ways on many occasions.

But he disagreed with the White House and was therefore marginalised.

Do I think that this current administration is wrong? You bet. But they are the only game in town just now and go along to get along is the order of the day.

Complete change here…

I try really hard to stay off the pity pot where my health is concerned. I have had my share of hard times and want desperately to believe that they are over. What I want to believe and what I DO believe are often dissimilar. I wonder if there is a cure, but care less about a cure than awareness. At the Komen walk on Mother’s Day, someone remarked that I stood out in all my pink ribbons. I said “Good!. If you can’t see me, I can’t raise your awareness.”

Breast cancer has long been thought to be a “woman thing”. Not so, but who cares? The number of men who die of this disease is far reaching. I know one male survivor on this board, met another recently, walk with a third.

I often have to stop the critical bus when I see peers making t!t jokes. I have to remember that the joke is normal, I am not. I have to have some openness to reality. (Not the best turn of phrase, but I need more coffee)

I can’t tell you how much I appreciate the support I get from people like yourself. I walk to make you aware, you make ME aware by your support. WOW!

I know that things have been worse. But if I didn’t believe that they could get better, I would have given up long ago. I believe they can and am willing to do all that I can to MAKE things better.

What Ropes did in opening this conversation was to encourage critical thinking- something that is widely discouraged in the world I live in. I was headed in the same path with the “What kind of World” thread. Ropes did it better. The world I want will cost some, but has a better return on investment than what I am living in.

I know it has been worse. I just want better. I’m scared of what could happen next based on the morons that run my country.

Absolutely, you obviously did not have

In reply to Confused! Is LA in a different country? :^0

a mother like my wife. You would ignore her at your peril. She had a way of talking to any kid that got their attention fast. If I yelled at the kids it scared them, so I tried to avoid that. But with Mom, they knew they were in trouble. 😀

Dad

note: how did you post to the right of the maximum level?

Hit the “View All Posts” hyperlink just below the “Previous” link.

In reply to Absolutely, you obviously did not have

🙂

re; View all posts

In reply to Hit the “View All Posts” hyperlink just below the “Previous” link.

when I click the ‘view all posts’ I cannot reply to any ‘you have reached your maximum level’ message. However changing the 5208 to 5218 in the url takes me straight to the reply to post. Technet needs to fix this part, I don’t mind viewing all posts. But at least this works

Thanks Absolutely

Dad

Hmm, me too.

In reply to re; View all posts

It was there a couple days ago. but I guess somebody decided we already had too many options and should not carry on our conversations more than 6 ‘levels’ in from the original post.

Humbug!

Absolutely

In reply to Confused! Is LA in a different country? :^0

For some reason your joke was so funny I dropped my bottled water. Now I have to get another one. :^0

I apologize.

In reply to Absolutely

But I do not know when I will find some more irony of equal or greater entertainment value. Until then, if you’re ever in town, I promise to buy you a bottle of water.

😀

PS The placement of your message makes it hard to tell which joke you meant, but whichever one you meant, I’m glad you enjoyed it. Again, sorry about the bottle of water.

🙁

Absolutely… shoot

In reply to Confused! Is LA in a different country? :^0

The fact that you promised is enough for me. I wouldn’t force you and I ferdamnsure appreciate ya’.

Update on LeoBud

In reply to Confused! Is LA in a different country? :^0

I digress: That’s the guy, Arson Investigator, ex-Marine, (2 tours?) retired LEO I wanted to look at the video and rip it apart.

I stopped by there today, S.O.P.

He was up almost all night last night he was so worried.

Seems he had this tiny 2 week old kitten that kept him up all night worried about it. Had.

I call him Oscar. 🙂

I wonder how long it’ll take before my wife notices him. :^0
Oscar is keeping my Yorkie in his cage for me. Too funny.

Mean ol’ LEO and Yorkie too.

KMR

In reply to Update on LeoBud

If the kit is 2 or 3 weeks old, it still needs queens milk. KMR is available at your local pet store or call me- you know the number. I have extra from all the shelter kitties.

I can also pack out some kitten food, when the baby is old enough.

Let me know.

No agenda – Just pix

In reply to Confused! Is LA in a different country? :^0

Edited to add text. Dontya’ just love the picture they had of Jimbob when the media reported the story. Big ol’ frowny face. :^0
(I’d call him Jimbob to his face and I’ll bet ya he’d laugh about it.)
I was talking with one of my millionaire buds yesterday. Eighty-two years old and he looks like he’s Jimbob’s clone. Decorated vet, blah, blah blah. He can look mean for a second or so but mostly yesterday we just wandered around his huge spread just looking at birds and deer and stuff for a few hours. I scooped up and drank the water straight from his pond too. Beat the hell out of treated water. Didn’t cost me anything either.

Told me that some big Agri-Corp offered him millions for his place but he’d laughed and said he’d never sell it for billions, neither would his son or his son’s son. I have a feeling, hunch, suspicion that big Agri-Corp will be back to offer him some more money. :^0

I hope I’m there if they do.

What was he telling me about Woodrow Wilson?

I remember and I’ll never forget… true patriots! Never!

Tigger

In reply to Confused! Is LA in a different country? :^0

Oscar’s cool. I double-checked, triple-checked even. I wasn’t correct on the amount of weeks old.

🙂

If you keep kickin’

In reply to Confused! Is LA in a different country? :^0

your soapbox under a fictional table how can I ever make any sense out of anything these piles of garbage I see that are…

What’d you say Dad?

In reply to Confused! Is LA in a different country? :^0

“These facts have been in the news…

Facts?! You’re bumming me out Dad.

My minds made up. Don’t confuse me with the facts.

What recently happened to whistle-blower laws? Who changed them? Why? I think I know. Do you?

‘facts’ YIKES

In reply to What’d you say Dad?

Looking back at the reply, ‘reports’ is probably a better word. But the other ‘reports’ I had seen were as factual as the those seen in the video. 🙂

Whistle-Blowers? I saw a report on 20/20 (does that show still exist?) on this subject, it seems that the law does not really protect them. (Actually, the law is real, but they still were still punished, courts did not support them.) So there must be a lot of satisfaction in doing this, as well as having money to support yourself. It’s sad!

Wish I had a link.

Dad

This is your counterargument?

In reply to Hmmm nice military graphs :D

[i]As was said in another post, the tax issue is very complicated. We mostly see what is presented on the media, but there are thousands of other things our taxes take care of. Who will fix the pothole in the street in front of your house?[/i]

Anybody with a wheelbarrow, a hose and a bit of cement.

Bad example!

In reply to This is your counterargument?

Because the street is city/county property. Making improvements or alterations will get you fined and possibly arrested.
My little brother was trying to get a cat off of a power pole once, and the Police came to stop him. Funny, he almost had the cat too…

Good example!

In reply to Bad example!

[i]Because the street is city/county property. Making improvements or alterations will get you fined and possibly arrested.[/i]

Although true, this is also stupid. Participatory democracy means that stupid laws are changeable.

Absolutely – I’m so convinced…

In reply to This is your counterargument?

…that I finally see the entire truth that I’ve volunteered to help in any way shape, form or fashion.

How could I NOT volunteer?

I’m not trying to promote that anyone else do anything besides think for themselves but I MUST volunteer!

Man, what a long strange trip it’s been until I finally “got it!” :0 :^0

Now I must take action.

I’m convinced that you’re close.

In reply to Absolutely – I’m so convinced…

I see the same problems. They took a long time to create. Although any individual’s understanding or appreciation of the problems and their interconnectedness does tend to be sudden, they will not be solved suddenly, nor simply. I mean to discourage over-simplification, not enthusiasm. I salute you.

I know. The real work is ahead of me.

In reply to Absolutely – I’m so convinced…

“I have promises to keep and miles to go before I sleep…”

“maximum message level” is a thing of the past

In reply to I know. The real work is ahead of me.

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=222970&start=0

Maybe you could fix the pothole

In reply to This is your counterargument?

But somepeople cannot mix cement. Some people will insist that others must do it. On the other side of the US, where I live, the streets are asphalt. While the asphalt is available, the pressure roller to compress it is expensive to rent 😀

Dad

just checked the soapbox is still under the table.

I think so

In reply to Maybe you could fix the pothole

“But some people cannot mix cement.”

Pleeeease! Some people [i]don’t know how[/i] to mix cement, and [i]assume[/i] that they [i]can’t[/i]. They’re wrong, they just don’t know they could do it because they haven’t tried. Bottom line, the argument that it [u]wouldn’t get done[/u] is fallacious.

You’ve inspired me.

In reply to I think so

I’m thinking of getting some cement, mixing it up, and fixing a couple small potholes in the parking lot here in the middle of the night, when nobody’s watching. Since the parking lot is asphalt, I’ll have to make sure to pour the cement a little bit shallower than the pothole.

Absolutely, I cannot get past the maximum post

In reply to This is your counterargument?

even when I activate the view all posts. All the posts are there, just no reply button.

Dad

See my retort about potholes, the fact that you don’t [i]yet[/i] know how..

In reply to Absolutely, I cannot get past the maximum post

does not mean that you “cannot”!

Instructions, including alternative to “View All Posts” button:

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=223233&messageID=2241966

Your problem with “View All Posts” could be a temporary server malfunction (we get those, um, “occaionally”), or it could be something to do with your browser, or browser setting. I’ll check back to see if you’re able to post past “maximum” message level later today.

:

see the re; message above

In reply to See my retort about potholes, the fact that you don’t [i]yet[/i] know how..

only the URL change works, but that is ok — it is faster. 😀

single-variable presentations of multivariable phenomena

In reply to You don’t have to get off your soapbox as far as I’m concerned.

To be more meaningful, these images should be scaled to the countries’ GDPs. In the first case, we would see the ratio of spending in the military sector to total income, which would tell us how nations prioritize warfare [u]in comparison[/u] to the rest of their economy. For the second image, “War and death”, we would see what political science has known for some time; that peace is strongly correlated to prosperity. Including “individual liberty” indexes make the latter correlation even stronger, historically.

I’ll try to find the link. It’s more useful than the pictures alone

In reply to single-variable presentations of multivariable phenomena

.

I edited the post above to provide direct links.

In reply to single-variable presentations of multivariable phenomena

If you visit the website you can see the data for the images is from 2002 and visualizes each countries percentage of total military spending worldwide. In 2002 the United States spent 45% of the total worldwide spending.
I’ll let others draw their own conclusions from that.
The world map for war deaths was interesting to me when I posted it as an image of where the money spent on the military might be better used to alleviate human suffering. Proof I guess that at heart I care about my fellowman and think true diplomacy and acceptance/tolerance of all religions is a better course. That’s just a personal principle of mine.

If I have undeniable proof that someone is trying to kill me or violate my rights as I understand my rights to be, the fight is on.

Today I also volunteered to help a presidential candidate that I’ve been following.

Like I’ve said, I have a lot of work ahead of me and I’ll make mistakes. I’m used to mistakes and it seldom stops me, at least I’m not dead from one of my mistakes yet.

Even Switzerland spends 1% of their GDP on the military.

In reply to I edited the post above to provide direct links.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2034rank.html

Just for the sake of a vibrant discussion, here is a [u]contrary[/u] view to what I was starting to argue about military spending vs. GDP:

[i]Linking military spending to the GDP is an argument frequently made by supporters of higher military budgets. Comparing military spending (or any other spending for that matter) to the GDP tells you how large a burden such spending puts on the US economy, but it tells you nothing about the burden a $440 billion military budget puts on U.S. taxpayers. Our economy may be able to bear higher military spending, but the question today is whether current military spending levels are necessary and whether these funds are going towards the proper priorities. Further, such comparisons are only made when the economy is healthy. It is unlikely that those arguing that military spending should be a certain portion of GDP would continue to make this case if the economy suddenly weakened, thus requiring dramatic cuts in the military.

? Chris Hellman[/i]

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/Spending.asp

If military spending is so important, why do the images that [u]you posted[/u] show the largest number of war deaths occurring in the countries with the [u]lowest[/u] military spending?

It is not [u]ALL[/u] the fault of the United States. Some of it is because of the tendency of desperate people to resort to desperate measures. If I could make one recommendation to people seeking world peace, it would be to forget about the guns & bombs and vaccinating babies. Forget about the people who are dying right now, and who are sure to die tomorrow. It’s sad, yes, but more is sure to follow if you don’t solve the problem at the root. Follow the money, and prevent much more unnecessary death next year, and the year after. All the meaningless violence is about seizing wealth. Always has been & always will be. Get rid of trade barriers, and the money will naturally disperse fairly evenly among all populaces that participate in [u]free[/u] trade.

Who else was it that said “follow the money” ?

In reply to Even Switzerland spends 1% of their GDP on the military.

That sounds like something a truly erudite criminal investigator would say. I just have to laugh. 😀

Not to dismiss the rest of your post but I have to ask 2 or 3 questions first before I get distracted. What is in the vaults at Fort Knox? I want to see it. Live and in person. Why won’t my government let me see it? Why are they afraid of lil’ ol’ me seeing their big ol’ pile of gold?

Ah, Woodward & Bernstein’s informant

In reply to Who else was it that said “follow the money” ?

Old what’s-his-name

What do I think of first when I think of Switzerland?

In reply to Even Switzerland spends 1% of their GDP on the military.

Swiss banks.

Why does Switzerland only spend 1% of their GDP on the military?

I think I know the answer but now it’s up to someone else to reason it all out for themselves.

Disaster capitalism

In reply to Thanks, Tigger2 you said much of what I was thinking. But

Just 1 of 69,400 Google hits for search terms “Katrina fund misused”.

http://xymphora.blogspot.com/2005/09/disaster-capitalism-in-new-orleans.html

If that article doesn’t make you want to learn more on your own…

Not “a whole other topic” at all!

In reply to Thanks, Tigger2 you said much of what I was thinking. But

[i]I am only saying, while I am in favor of bringing all injustises to the forefront, but bring alternate ways to pay for them. We may not have been given a choice in how we pay for them now, but what way would we be willing to pay for them. (Which service we are willing to pay for is a whole other topic.)[/i]

Which services are Absolutely Necessary? How much do those cost? There, the tax question is settled, now back to work everybody!!

:^0

You ask an Absolutely great question.

In reply to Not “a whole other topic” at all!

I need to noodle it awhile but will post MY answer.

Your mileage may vary.

Just me talking to just you in front of the entire world :0 :) :^0

In reply to You ask an Absolutely great question.

Please unhose your video settings. I believe wholeheartedly that you owe it to yourself to watch both videos front to back.

“both” videos?

In reply to Just me talking to just you in front of the entire world :0 :) :^0

I saw the one about not being required to pay taxes — great news, that, by the way. There’s another? Crikey!

You let something slip past you?

In reply to “both” videos?

(thud)

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=223233&messageID=2238512

How odd…

In reply to You let something slip past you?

“We’re sorry, but this video may not be available.

Try refreshing the page to see this video.

To see more videos visit our home page”

I know I followed your link to the tax video just a couple days ago!

[edit: The youtube page is “back”. Maybe Ropes just sent too many people there in too short a time?]

Well, that’s obviously inconceivable, so…

In reply to You let something slip past you?

the second video must have just not been there the first time I checked.

😉

Works for me

In reply to “both” videos?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003

I bought the AFTF (America Freedom to Fascism Directors Cut today.

An interesting thing happened while I was taking care of my birthday tax at my Secretary of State’s office today.

Crowded, as usual, so I excused my way over to a fairly vacant space where I started chit-chat with another guy. We started off talking in hushed tones about how hard it is to find work around here and it seemed like half of the room became quiet, just listening. As the conversation progressed, he brought up a few “issues” I have in common with him. I told him of my discoveries calmly and quietly while glancing towards everyone else occasionally. One guy was just glaring at me and when I was listening to my newly-found friend I heard some guy clearly say, “That’s dangerous talk boy” ! :^0

Seriously. :^0 :^0 :^0

I think it sounded like the voice of the first local to be standing in line to receive his I.D. chip. 🙁

What else of minor interest?

I touched base with one of my closest retired LEO buds, close friends for the past 20 years.

The conversation rolled around to another LEO friend who’d quit the Department to work for the NSA, (No Such Agency). Turns out he quit there and moved to a little cabin without electricity on some mountain-top in . If I ever get over that way I’m going to ask him WTF! A decorated Marine Corp. veteran, every inch a patriot, who’d landed his “dream job” as he put it the last I saw him and now he’s living on a remote mountain-top? No conclusions drawn or implied by me here, as I said, of minor interest.

Also, my old LEO friend lives in a nice place, but bad location, close to a State Super-Max prison. He told me that the State wants to fill the entire large, field in front of his place with low-income affordable housing (trailers) for “families of the prisoners” but there are township zoning issues that have prevented it, so far. He’s going to put his place up for sale in November and move to his Florida home permanently.

It’s nice of the State to provide housing for families of the prisoners. I think. They may have to raise State taxes to do it but at least prisoners families will be comfy. Hardly an issue for me to be concerned about.

Edited to add this little bit of nothing: While I was geeting my papers I talked with the woman behind the counter, a very nice older lady. (irrelevant) Anyway, I simply asked if they had any job openings and she just laughed. 😐
She said she was looking for another one herself because the State recently cut her wages and increased her out-of-pocket insurance costs while the State officials just voted themselves a pay raise. (also irrelevant- sorry I edited now) 🙁

I’ve discovered another puzzling irrelevancy.
Just today I realized that I know of three recent occurrences of my friends upgrading to better housing, going deeper into debt in the process and then losing their great large corporation jobs. (I’m irrelevant again. Do not read.)

Doh.

Too late idint it?

Original quote, “It’s only over when I say it’s over.” Oh wait… I think my wife said that. B-)
She can get pissed off a little too easily if you ask me. Sung to the tune of “Redneck women are too hard to handle.” Now she wants me to sign some kind of stoopid petition that she’s circulating. I guess I’ll do it just to keep her from calling me names. 🙂
Women, once they get pissed off they seem to stay pissed off until things are the way they want them to be. Dang patriot! :^0

In lieu of an edit I’m posting this.

In reply to You ask an Absolutely great question.

If you unhose your computer and watch the videos it will save me a lot of money on gasoline. I’ll bring my computer and set it up for you so that you can watch them as soon as possible.

I’m not kidding. I’m NOT kidding!

I can fire up a secondary

In reply to In lieu of an edit I’m posting this.

But only because gas prices are so d@mned high.

I had been hoping to find an other source for the information but have not been successful. I will light up a test box and take a look.

Even without that view, I get what you are saying. At least, I think I do. And I agree.

I wish I knew how to fix my country. If you know, even a small way, tell me. The writing on the wall I see is that I will find myself living as far from everything as I can get and hiding from the world. The alternative is to just paint a nice big target on myself and go on being the obnoxious b*tch I am.

So much for the “retirement” years, eh?

Check your email

In reply to I can fire up a secondary

I’m sending you my cell phone number.

Check your voice mail

In reply to Check your email

Mine’s there.

Just give me a shout if anything’s unclear to you

In reply to Check your voice mail

Actually you can give me a shout anytime but I’ve gotten a little bit busy here just recently. I will always answer the phone if I can and return your call as soon as I can too.

T2 and GG This is probably of little interest to you

In reply to I can fire up a secondary

But I never received a voicemail but don’t worry… I have caller ID…

GG must be pretty busy cuz I never received her pm. Seems her email settings are hosed or something…

Under doctors orders, and doing as I’m told for once, so it’s

In reply to I can fire up a secondary

just one helluva time for someone to try obnoxious things with the main East Coast broadband router…bloody typical. I am sooooo bored. Connections are horrendous at best and non existent at worst.

Sorry, Ropes, sent you same email from 4 different accounts – I stupidly assumed you’d get one of ’em! That’s 6 today that have disappeared into the ether (dammit, and one was about a job, too…… 🙁 …..

oh well. will continue resting while I have the chance….. grandson’s ETA 40 minutes – i.e. 40 minutes till the riot starts….! 😀

Will pm you – again! – when the system is more stable…. this is the longest it’s let me stay online all bloody day….GRRRRRRRRRRR!

GG

What is Absolutely necessary?

In reply to Not “a whole other topic” at all!

To change the way we think so that we believe and understand that nothing will be handed to us.

To stop the fallacy of thought that expects that the gov will somehow make it all better.

To become convinced that the only path is through the requirement of taking personal responsibility. To be willing to follow that path, no matter what.

To give up on the hand out and only value a hand up.

To be willing to say NO, once and for all time.

To be willing to free each and every human being to become all that they are capable of by unshackling them from a theoretical “minimum” that they must meet. To encourage them all to find what they are capable of.

To teach self awareness to all who do not know.

There’s the basics, near as I can tell.

Tig-I dont mean to rain on your parade…

In reply to What is Absolutely necessary?

:^0

I got here first. :^0
Where’s my stoopid agenda though? Left it in my carry-on baggage did I?. :0

Did I ever tell you that I think that your simple appearing noodling’s to other(s) of PEACE are awesome? My hat is off to you. (NFS) 🙂 :0 :^0
Somehow, where ever you learned the WWWWWorH, you got the “right stuff” ya’ girly type girl. I’d throw down my last NCG-MS-65 Type II Jefferson Nickel on a bet you believe could be possible against all odds. 😡 Go Tig Go.

Of no interest to anyone but me. (boasting) I have a complete set of Jefferson MS-65 Nickels. Not for sale because I kindofsortof liked the dude for someungodlyknownreason.

Very well written

In reply to What is Absolutely necessary?

I am proud to have made your aquaintance

Dad

‘We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.’

Dad

In reply to Very well written

You made me cry.

Embarrassing when that happens.

And both cats were in the room, too!

The Preamble is one of my favourite pieces of writing. It clearly defines it’s goal and clearly defines it’s desire.

If only people could remember it…

Dad, you make me proud.

Your wishes for the furture means you are Young at

In reply to Dad

Heart.

Fairy tales can come true, it can happen to you
If you’re young at heart.
For it’s hard, you will find, to be narrow of mind
If you’re young at heart.

You can go to extremes with impossible schemes.
You can laugh when your dreams fall apart at the seams.
And life gets more exciting with each passing day.
And love is either in your heart, or on it’s way.

Don’t you know that it’s worth every treasure on earth
To be young at heart.
For as rich as you are, it’s much better by far
To be young at heart.

And if you should survive to 105,
Look at all you’ll derive out of being alive!
And here is the best part, you have a head start
If you are among the very young at heart.

:X

Dad

Absolutely Necessary

In reply to Not “a whole other topic” at all!

I’m not 100% sold on the idea that any governmental services are “absolutely necessary” — but in general, I have an idea of what I think government should provide. That has a very, very simple beginning:

The role of government should be, first and foremost, to avoid initiating force; second, to provide defense for those who fail to effectively defend themselves from initiations of force; third, to prevent those who have initiated force against others from doing so again; and fourth, to otherwise stay the hell out of the way (which really brings us back to the first requirement again).

Note: By “force”, I mean violence, threat of violence, and fraud.

Anything that is not directly related to the above should be considered outside government’s purview and illegal for anyone to pursue as a government functionary. Period.

What are you an, anarchist?

In reply to Absolutely Necessary

[i]I’m not 100% sold on the idea that any governmental services are “absolutely necessary”[/i]

Not even courts to try the guilty, I mean the accused?

I swear… To what?

In reply to What are you an, anarchist?

Absolutely and Apotheon just crack me up. True patriots, both of them. Good job my friends :^0
Awesome, for some reason I can’t even begin to explain here.
Still laughing. Too cool. B-)

I’ll remember ya’.

Heh — thanks.

In reply to I swear… To what?

. . . and yeah, Absolutely is almost as cool as me! Ahem.

to honor & cherish, in sickness & in health …

In reply to I swear… To what?

Oh, not what you meant?

In court, for anything more serious than a parking ticket, I swear with my left hand on the Constitution.

And I’ll consider it a great day when I’m half as cool as apotheon.

wow

In reply to to honor & cherish, in sickness & in health …

That’s either a heck of a compliment or a funny bit of sarcasm. Either way — thanks!

Swore, sworn, I’ve sweared, I’ve sworn

In reply to I swear… To what?

I’m going to go with the, I’ve sworn, too.

I’m thinking

In reply to What are you an, anarchist?

…that it looks like investing cash in brass and plastic for protection against hard times is a damm good idear. What was it that I read a long time ago about brass and plastic having a lower shelf-life than it used to have? 🙁
Check your various metals and consumer products for expiration dates :^0
Mountain-top real-estate paid for in cash and blood, sweat and tears equity might be a good investment too. Wish I had some. I’ve got plenty of blood sweat and tears. Especially tears.

I’m a tadbit pissed off too.

brass and plastic

In reply to I’m thinking

These days, when you get right down to brass tacks, they’re plastic.

While I agree mostly

In reply to Absolutely Necessary

there are other services the government should supply.
1. Provide Law and Order
2. Provide Defense for the citizens
3. Work for the Citizens benefit.
4. Provide details for trade with foreign nations.
5. Manage the currency of the nation.

I am sure that I missed a thing or 2 but I am heading to a BBQ and am already late.

Who was Hugo Black? What did he do?

In reply to While I agree mostly

No single source references. I for one am glad to see that you thought that thinking was important enough to make you late for a BBQ.

Is that a question just for w2ktechman?

In reply to Who was Hugo Black? What did he do?

I know a bit about him off the top of my head — some good, some not so good.

I’m interested in what you know about Hugo

In reply to Who was Hugo Black? What did he do?

I’m also hmmm… I used an old TR account to log-in. I couldn’t get here with OTR ? Oh well, yeah bring it on you got me started thinking and for some reason I can’t stop :^0
I do plan to slow it down later with selections from the Benjamin Franklin approved food group.

Off the top of my head . . .

In reply to I’m interested in what you know about Hugo

What I recall is that Hugo Black was a lawyer who was also a member of the KKK. In a trial where he was a defense attorney for another KKK member who killed someone, he discredited (almost?) all the prosecution witnesses by starting his questioning with something like “Are you a Catholic?” (Catholics were very unpopular in Alabama in those days.)

He then went on to secure a position for himself in the US Senate. A while later, he was nominated to the Supreme Court by FDR (another of the many dubious things FDR did) — after a failed attempt at stacking the Supreme Court with his own nominees as I recall (yet another of the many dubious things FDR did). I seem to recall that Hugo Black was a pioneer in that he was the first Senator appointed to the Supreme Court or to an executive office and was not automatically approved without debate — in fact, his nomination was challenged on (probably spurious) Constitutional grounds, something related to the fact that the Supreme Court got an increase in retirement benefits while Hugo Black was in office as a Senator.

Ultimately approved and sworn in, I think it was shortly thereafter (when he couldn’t be removed from the position for any reasons that didn’t involve violation of the law) that it was discovered he was (formerly?) a member of the KKK. I think a reporter got the Pulitzer for his work in uncovering the evidence of his KKK membership, but I do not for the life of me remember for sure, nor do I recall the reporter’s name.

His career in the Supreme Court was a long and influential one, as I recall — something like thirty or forty years as an Associate Justice. He was well-known as a “textualist”, in that (despite being in the Democratic Party) his interpretation of the law was always based on what he claimed was a literal interpretation of the Constitution. Unfortunately, he was one of those knuckleheads that seemed to have problems understanding the logical necessities of certain clauses in the Constitution. For instance, he didn’t seem to think that the Fourth and Fifth Amendments amounted to any protection of privacy. Then again, no other Supreme Court Justices have seen the “right to privacy” implied there, either — in cases where a “right to privacy” was read by Supreme Court Justices, I seem to recall mostly that it was read as proceeding from the Ninth and Fourteenth Amendments. His opposition to a right of privacy went so far as to attempt (and fail, thankfully) to uphold a conviction for the use of contraceptives.

He also favored expansion of federal power, as I recall — something of an insane policy, in my estimation, for anyone to hold at any time following the Civil War. To that end, I seem to recall, Hugo Black was instrumental in reversing long-standing Supreme Court policy to the effect that the Commerce Clause should be interpreted narrowly and strictly. His KKK history showed through here, too, though — he took a non-Federalist stance on some decisions where one would expect a former KKK member to take such a position, such as in opposing the Voting Rights Act of 1965, which was enacted to protect the voting rights of black citizens. He most notably (as far as I know) departed from Federalist sympathies in his last year in the Supreme Court, when he authored a majority decision that established the policy of Younger Abstention (named after the Younger party of a court case heard by the Court — I don’t recall who the other party was). In other words, it seems he was a Federalist most of the time (generally a bad side of the debate to be on, in my estimation), but went anti-Federalist when it was least reasonable to do so.

Not all was doom and gloom in the realm of Hugo Black’s “textualist” interpretation of the Constitution, however. For example, I recall that during the Red Scare he broke with the majority in certain cases related to “anti-communist” legislation on Constitutional grounds, such as when he dissented from the approval of laws that required labor union leadership to officially separate themselves from the Communist Party because such laws violated the First Amendment. In general, the First Amendment was his foundation for a lot of opposition to “anti-communist” legislation in Supreme Court decisions where he was generally in the minority, as I recall. His anti-Catholic sentiments as a former KKK member seem to have fortuitously lent to his strict stance on separation of Church and State (funny how these days the modern equivalents of the KKK are fighting for integrating concerns of church and state). Similarly, despite the problems of his “textualist” policy of interpreting the Constitution, there were good effects such as his opposition to segregation laws and his famed quote in relation to the First Amendment “No law means no law.” This is the main reason some people have defended Hugo Black’s position on the separation of Church and State as being unrelated to latent bigotry. Personally, I’m inclined that both textualism and bigotry played a part in his zeal to defend the First Amendment from all comers, and welcome that zeal even if some of the reasons for it were of reprehensible origins. Judging by his opinions on, and interpretation of, First Amendment matters during his Supreme Court tenure, I rather suspect he would have really torn a new one in the Bush Administration’s policies of limiting speech for reasons of “national security”. Unfortunately, he has taken strictly Federalist stances on a couple of “free speech” issues as well, proving that even in the defense of the First Amendment he was willing to bend from time to time just to be a bastard (apparently). For instance, he opposed flag burning (claiming it wasn’t “speech”) and giving speeches on government property freely (that one’s [b]really[/b] hard to defend from the perspective of his otherwise strict defense of the First Amendment).

Perhaps the single most important [b]positive[/b] policy of Hugo Black as an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court was that of universal application of the Bill of Rights not only to the Federal government, but to the State governments as well. That alone may make up for most of his other poor decision-making as a Supreme Court Justice. Of course, being the “textualist” that he was, he only supported that view based on the Fourteenth Amendment, completely failing to understand the context of the terms of the Bill of Rights itself.

Ultimately, while I would otherwise sympathize with someone who favored a strict reading of the Constitution in ruling on law, I find myself generally in opposition to his policies. His policies were such that, so long as the current fad in how one interprets the use of words was observed, any interpretation of the Constitution is valid — but must take into account [b]all[/b] of the Constitution and not contradict any part of it. In other words: yes, he’s a Constitutional “textualist” — but no, that doesn’t mean that the meaning of the text should necessarily be understood from one generation to the next. I suppose that, on those grounds, we should assume that if “speech” is understood colloquially to mean only radio speech thirty years from now, the First Amendment would no longer apply to print media, television, or conversations in private (especially considering his assumption that there’s no “right to privacy”).

Hugo Black’s policies of jurisprudence apparently influenced Justice Antonin Scalia (a name I’m sure most, if not all, even vaguely politically-aware people have heard of).

. . . and that’s all I really remember about Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black. Alas, I don’t feel like looking up any source material to support my statements at this time.

Funny, I was having account problems

In reply to Who was Hugo Black? What did he do?

most of last week. To read most posts I had to be logged in as Anonymous User. To comment I had to log in as myself and try repeatedly, sometimes it took more than 10 minutes to NOT get ‘page not found’ errors.
I emailed SMORTY about it but did not receive a reply.

Apotheon-

In reply to Who was Hugo Black? What did he do?

Just off of the top of my head – THX for your reply, 🙁 😐 🙂 😉 🙂 :^0

I thank you Sir. Much more than I can ever explain.

If you ever want/need anything just give me a shout. I’ll be the guy in the parking lot.

ahem

In reply to While I agree mostly

“[i]1. Provide Law and Order[/i]”
That’s covered by “second, to provide defense for those who fail to effectively defend themselves from initiations of force; third, to prevent those who have initiated force against others from doing so again”. Any instance where that doesn’t cover it is an instance where government damned well shouldn’t be meddling in my life.

“[i]2. Provide Defense for the citizens[/i]”
That, too, is covered by “second, to provide defense for those who fail to effectively defend themselves from initiations of force; third, to prevent those who have initiated force against others from doing so again”.

“[i]3. Work for the Citizens benefit.[/i]”
That’s overly broad and prone to abuse (much like that asinine bit of “general welfare” nonsense in the Constitution that gets us in so much trouble by giving Congress the idea that it has the right to legislate and micromanage every single little detail of our lives). Perhaps you’d like to narrow that down a bit.

“[i]4. Provide details for trade with foreign nations.[/i]”
Details? What details?

“[i]5. Manage the currency of the nation.[/i]”
That’s unnecessary. Let the best private currency systems rise to the top, and to hell with a governmentally defined currency. Just look at the havoc wreaked by the vesting of the power to mandate currency in the Federal Reserve.

Ok, a re-look

In reply to ahem

1 & 2 were thrown in there just because they were on my list. The others were thrown in as additions.

3. It is broad and should be. This is a very general statement. The government should work for the benefit of its citezens. It should not try just to benefit the few and screw everyone else. It should be re-worded though, however I was bringing up some missed points.

4. What details… Hmmm. How about how to set tarriffs. Which nations to trade with. How much to import, etc..

5. Let the private currency systems rise to the top??? Is not that what is already happening? The Federal Reserve is a private bank, not controlled by our government.

some comments

In reply to Ok, a re-look

“[i]3. It is broad and should be. This is a very general statement. The government should work for the benefit of its citezens. It should not try just to benefit the few and screw everyone else. It should be re-worded though, however I was bringing up some missed points.[/i]”

Well . . . taking that in a positive sense, I’ll just say that my explanation of what government should and shouldn’t do pretty much cover how it should work to benefit every citizen, then.

“[i]4. What details… Hmmm. How about how to set tarriffs. Which nations to trade with. How much to import, etc.[/i]”

Set tariffs: If that can be done such that it doesn’t initiate force, and is done for the purpose of defending others from initiations of force, then it’s covered. If not, it shouldn’t be within government’s power.

Which nations to trade with and how much to import: Government [b]absolutely should not interfere with market forces[/b]. That constitutes an initiation of force, and causes more harm than good.

“[i]5. Let the private currency systems rise to the top??? Is not that what is already happening? The Federal Reserve is a private bank, not controlled by our government.[/i]”

No, that’s not what’s already happening. The Federal Reserve acts under the auspices of government power (as does the IRS), despite being a supposedly private organization (as is the IRS), and the fiat currency system of the US is mandated by law. Go ahead — try to circulate a different currency and call it “money” or “currency”, and see how quickly you end up in court trying to defend yourself.

Maybe I don’t get it

In reply to ahem

You’ve got a bulldozer and I can install small networks. We trade. Both of us feel we got a good deal. Maybe I’ll do the same thing for anyone with a bulldozer, maybe I won’t but I get to decide not somebody else.

Am I missing something here?

Re: #5. (slaps forehead) Doh!

(Which service we are willing to pay for is a whole other topic.) :)

In reply to Thanks, Tigger2 you said much of what I was thinking. But

Uhhhh…it’s not.

An other topic, that is.

Do you want to retire? The federal government wants you to apportion sixteen percent of what you earn towards a retirement fund for yourself. In fact, they want this so badly, they give you no option. Half from you, half from your employer.

Is this a service you respect? Is this one you want? Why, of course it is. You are so buried in the every day reality of rent/mortgage, utilities, groceries, car payments and credit card obligations that you can’t even think about saving. No problem. The government will do it for you.

Unfortunately, your contributions only pay for those already on Social Security. You have no savings in Social Security. Your retirement is dependent on future wage earners and their sixteen percent (which was once only four percent). Except, the future wage earners will be in smaller numbers than hoped, so either their contributions will need to be more than sixteen percent, or, your benefits will be less. Take your pick.

Services? Two thirds of the federal budget is already entitlements. When you retire (when will that be?), it will be way more.

Income taxes and FICA are feeding the elderly and subsidizing the infirm and killing Iraqi’s. Not much more.

Real services, like schools and roads and police and fire, are provided by local taxes, like property and sales taxes and state income taxes and excise taxes and gas taxes and business licenses etc. Other than entitlements and war and highways, the Federal government does very little.

If you are in the middle income bracket, say fifty grand to two hundred thousand, you are paying your share and more. If you are below this, then you are getting subsidies. If you are very far above this, then you have an accountant and a batch of tax laws that minimize you burden.

Where do you lie in this income hierarchy?

somewhere near the bottom

In reply to (Which service we are willing to pay for is a whole other topic.) :)

For an average sampling, there’s probably about a 98% chance of anyone being in the “getting screwed” class — but you knew that already.

Maybe if we changed election day

In reply to I hate video links

to April 16. 🙂

I’d prefer changing the filing date

In reply to Maybe if we changed election day

Say, around Labor Day. Then, those who will receive refunds have them in time for their winter holiday spending sprees, and we also have the memory of the magnitude of what has been calculated as the “Tax Paid” fresh in our minds when we go to vote. Good idea, Tony, but I saw another bird. I hope you don’t mind that I threw your stone at it!
😀

Maybe we should change it to the tax freedom date

In reply to Maybe if we changed election day

That way every year we could put off filing our taxes until later in the year.

Yeah, and when

In reply to Maybe we should change it to the tax freedom date

tax freedom day gets to December 31st, you wouldn’t have to file at all 🙁

I never thought of that one Tony.

In reply to Yeah, and when

If our government gets any more involved in our lives and “chips” the cash we withdraw from the bank too maybe we’ll find ourselves paying an income tax at everyplace we spend that cash.

Demanding that a Real ID be used for every transaction could accomplish the same thing.

I feel safer from terroristicalular (GW) activity too. Don’t you?

Good fun

In reply to Maybe if we changed election day

What a thought! Let’s do it!

As though “WE” played any real role in this.

If it did, WE would certainly do so.

“WE” would vote ourselves into bankruptcy. As we already have, with the help of an occasional President.

We can make a difference.

In reply to I hate video links

I believe that only way to make a difference in today’s society, however, is to align yourself with people that have similar goals.

T2 – You sound like you would be interested in the following organization: http://www.downsizedc.org

Dad – Two words: Fair Tax (www.fairtax.org).

I’m no expert, but I have done my research and I can not imagine a better plan for the purpose of taxation.

Thanks, Inkling

In reply to We can make a difference.

I have read many of your posts and have learned that you and I think much the same on many issues.

I have also read Fair Tax. It is unquestionably a step in the right direction but doesn’t address a few essential points.

I don’t mind paying for certain programs. We need a military and we need some fundamental services. But Nancy Pelosi doesn’t NEED a private jet that I am required to pay for. Why does the White House NEED several planes that can become Air Force One based on the a$$ that is sitting on it? And when do I get to choose how MY money is spent?

Deep breath. Relax. Come down from the soapbox…

I’m better now. I think I will go investigate your link. It will keep me from expounding further.

Calm Down!

In reply to Thanks, Inkling

Tiggers are better when enjoyable and light hearted!

Ok, I too have already seen fairtax and have some issues with it. But, it does address quite a few as well. It sounds better than the current system.

No, you get agitated!

In reply to Calm Down!

Tech Men are better when they’re fixing stuff, including broken tax systems.

Ok then, I abolish all taxes while I review

In reply to No, you get agitated!

everything and come up with a better system…

Lets see now, how many personal off-shore accounts will I need… Hmmmm… Oops, you arent supposed to see that part (random thoughts).

You said…

In reply to We can make a difference.

“align yourself with people that have similar goals.”

I couldn’t agree more.

Me too.

In reply to You said…

Maybe we should all just align ourselves with the Libertarian Party and vote for Ron Paul in 2008, then. Just sayin’, y’know.

You? What are you doing over here!?!

In reply to Me too.

You can just say whatever you want to say and maybe I’ll agree, maybe I won’t. Words, thoughts and ideas have proven to me that they can have a powerful impact on the road I take.

You gave me a lot to mull over:

The role of government should be, first and foremost, to avoid initiating force; second, to provide defense for those who fail to effectively defend themselves from initiations of force; third, to prevent those who have initiated force against others from doing so again; and fourth, to otherwise stay the hell out of the way (which really brings us back to the first requirement again).

Note: By “force”, I mean violence, threat of violence, and fraud.

Anything that is not directly related to the above should be considered outside government’s purview and illegal for anyone to pursue as a government functionary. Period.

I might find myself repeating the italicized portion of this reply. My first take on it? HELL YES!!!

I’d probably take time to post something witty in response but I’m hungry so…

Good to see you and I’m going to hit you with an emoticon, B-)

Eek! Not emoticons!!!

In reply to You? What are you doing over here!?!

Thanks for the compliments. Quote my words all you like — I’d like to see that idea about what’s right and proper for government become more well-known and more widely accepted.

. . . and that idea (summed up in the so-called “non-aggression principle”, or NAP, which states that initiation of force is unethical) is the main reason I want Ron Paul to win the next Presidential election. For that to happen, though, he needs to gain a whole lot of support in the Republican Party before the primaries start at the beginning of next year.

I’m hopeful, but still concerned, about his chances in the primaries. The Republican Party leadership probably hates him more than the Democrats.

“non-aggression principle”

In reply to Eek! Not emoticons!!!

Peaceful sounding stuff. I must ponder.

I don’t believe I said no one could have an agenda in this discussion

In reply to Me too.

Like I could/would stop them. :^0

I just don’t have an agenda and my posts reflect my genuine, real-life known to be true concern, that people think.

edited for comma

Talk, just plain ol’ talk

In reply to You said…

to your neighbors.

It’s almost like someone could be using the Bible

In reply to I hate video links

for profit. That couldn’t happen here could it? 😉

History Of The US Income Tax

In reply to Interesting quote

http://www.loc.gov/rr/business/hottopic/irs_history.html

[i]The origin of the income tax on individuals is generally cited as the passage of the 16th Amendment, passed by Congress on July 2, 1909, and ratified February 3, 1913; however, its history actually goes back even further. During the Civil War Congress passed the Revenue Act of 1861 which included a tax on personal incomes to help pay war expenses. The tax was repealed ten years later. However, in 1894 Congress enacted a flat rate Federal income tax, which was ruled unconstitutional the following year by the U.S. Supreme Court because it was a direct tax not apportioned according to the population of each state. The 16th amendment, ratified in 1913, removed this objection by allowing the Federal government to tax the income of individuals without regard to the population of each State. For additional information on the history of taxation in the United States, see the Fact Sheet: Taxes prepared by the U. S. Treassury on the history of the U.S. tax system.[/i]

Actually, I thought I would find something all the way back to the origins of the government. How else were standing armies and navy’s paid for? The US Navy was established under President Jefferson. How else did he pay for it??

But, that’s what I found. Is that what you was looking for OnTheRopes?

Dan
[i]Edited to add: [/i]
God, I found more… This is getting disheartening that they actually have a museum on the history of tax’s.
http://www.tax.org/Museum/default.htm

Hate to say it — nope

In reply to History Of The US Income Tax

keep trying though.
The question was not about the history of taxes, but to prove the legality of the Federal Income Tax by providing (written) the law that requires it.
This should also take into account the Supreme Court rulings as well.

It’s a part of the constitution, with wording specificatly stating

In reply to Hate to say it — nope

That tax’s can be collected. There is nothing else to look at. That’s it.

Which address’s both your points.

And here is the wording of the 16th amendment.

Amendment XVI

[i]The [u]Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived[/u], without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration. [/i]
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxvi.html

[i]16th Amendment
In 1895, in the Supreme Court case of Pollock v Farmer’s Loan and Trust (157 U.S. 429), the Court disallowed a federal tax on income from real property. The tax was designed to be an indirect tax, which would mean that states need not contribute portions of a whole relative to its census figures. The Court, however, ruled that the tax was a direct tax and subject to apportionment. This was the last in a series of conflicting court decisions dating back to the Civil War. Between 1895 and 1909, when the amendment was passed by Congress, the Court began to back down on its position, as it became clear not only to accountants but to everyone that the solvency of the nation was in jeopardy. In a series of cases, the definition of “direct tax” was modified, bent, twisted, and coaxed to allow more taxation efforts that approached an income tax.

[Finally, with the ratification of the 16th Amendment, any doubt was removed. The text of the Amendment makes it clear that though the categories of direct and indirect taxation still exist, any determination that income tax is a direct tax will be irrelevant, because taxes on incomes, from salary or from real estate, are explicitly to be treated as indirect. The Congress passed the Amendment on July 12, 1909, and it was ratified on February 3, 1913 (1,302 days).[/i]
http://www.usconstitution.net/constamnotes.html

And sadly to say, here is a government web site with full history of that amendment. This also list’s off court case’s verifying the legality of it. Which was your second point.
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/html/amdt16.html

Its a part of the constitution, you are not going to get any more concrete then that.

[i]The Amendment Process

There are essentially two ways spelled out in the Constitution for how to propose an amendment. One has never been used.

The first method is for a bill to pass both houses of the legislature, by a two-thirds majority in each. Once the bill has passed both houses, it goes on to the states. This is the route taken by all current amendments. Because of some long outstanding amendments, such as the 27th, Congress will normally put a time limit (typically seven years) for the bill to be approved as an amendment (for example, see the 21st and 22nd).

The second method prescribed is for a Constitutional Convention to be called by two-thirds of the legislatures of the States, and for that Convention to propose one or more amendments. These amendments are then sent to the states to be approved by three-fourths of the legislatures or conventions. This route has never been taken, and there is discussion in political science circles about just how such a convention would be convened, and what kind of changes it would bring about.

Regardless of which of the two proposal routes is taken, the amendment must be ratified, or approved, by three-fourths of states. There are two ways to do this, too. The text of the amendment may specify whether the bill must be passed by the state legislatures or by a state convention. See the Ratification Convention Page for a discussion of the make up of a convention. Amendments are sent to the legislatures of the states by default. Only one amendment, the 21st, specified a convention. In any case, passage by the legislature or convention is by simple majority.

The Constitution, then, spells out four paths for an amendment:

* Proposal by convention of states, ratification by state conventions (never used)
* Proposal by convention of states, ratification by state legislatures (never used)
* Proposal by Congress, ratification by state conventions (used once)
* Proposal by Congress, ratification by state legislatures (used all other times)

It is interesting to note that at no point does the President have a role in the formal amendment process (though he would be free to make his opinion known). He cannot veto an amendment proposal, nor a ratification. This point is clear in Article 5, and was reaffirmed by the Supreme Court in Hollingsworth v Virginia (3 USC 378 [1798]):[/i]

http://www.usconstitution.net/constam.html

Please don’t ask me to read court rulings, no matter what I thought it would most likely be wrong. Here is the supreme court web site in case anyone else wants to interpret that crap.

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/

roflmao. Having problems sleeping. Don’t want to take drugs? click on http://www.supremecourtus.gov/ and bore yourself to sleep. And this can all be had for the low, low, price of. You got it… Free, brought to you by your friendly federal government. Your tax dollars at work.

god, that was bad. Sorry, I couldn’t spell the words for a disclaimer.. lol

Dan

I’m surprised you haven’t gone to collect your $50K ;)

In reply to It’s a part of the constitution, with wording specificatly stating

…for proving that the IRS has the right to tax American workers. As far as I can see the money is still up for grabs so you should get over there with your proof right away

Tax experts from the IRS and Constitutional law experts apparently haven’t been able to show that the IRS has that right after what, 5 years since the award was posted and here you’ve done it in just the matter of a few minutes/hours!?!. (deep bow)
Now I’m stuck with an unexpected conflict. I don’t know who I should believe, you or the experts and attorneys. I’ll get back to you when I decide. After you pick up the cash I’ll be leaning towards believing you. Until then… Hmmm… (thinking) Yep. Still conflicted.

I appreciate the effort you put into a longer reply than your first post. I thought that one was a little lame.

Re: Court rulings? I’ve read a ton of them and they damn sure are boring. I think you could find an equal and opposite ruling for almost anything. What bothers me is when a Judge says not to bring the law into his courtroom or did you miss that part? Did you even watch the video? Or maybe that doesn’t bother you, and that’s cool. It bothers me

Nothing seems to be as simple as it appears to be on the surface and I seriously doubt that my government, including the IRS, acts in my best interest. I wonder if it ever does.

When you pick up the 50 Grand I wonder what your income tax liability is going to be on it. :^0 :^0 :^0

The answer is: Whatever the IRS says it’s going to be. 😐

My bandwidth is still seriously hammered so I’m not going to stick around. Just getting here to reply was worse than the POTS days.

I wasn’t trying to be smart

In reply to I’m surprised you haven’t gone to collect your $50K ;)

I just did a look up out of curiosity.

Sorry.

Dan

I wasn’t trying to be a smartass back at ya either

In reply to I wasn’t trying to be smart

My bandwidth was down to some ridiculously low level yesterday so I couldn’t view the overall discussion like I normally do. I just happened to pick your reply first from my email notifications.

🙂

I dispute the opening statments of this movie.

In reply to It’s a part of the constitution, with wording specificatly stating

Right off the top, this judge claims that 2 thirds of the states did not ratify this amendment. At the time the amendment was ratified, Feb 3, 1913 there were 48 states in the union. Two thirds of the states are required to ratify any amendment, please see my previous post. Two thirds of 48 is 32. 16 + 16 =32 + 16 = 48.

Following is a list of all 50 states sorted in the order they joined the union. The order of the column are as follows: date state joined union, name of state, ratification date, and notation if ratification was on or before 02/13/1913.

Dec. 7, 1787 Delaware Delaware,February 3, 1913; ratified in time
Dec. 12, 1787 Pennsylvania
Dec. 18, 1787 New Jersey
Jan. 2, 1788 Georgia Georgia, August 3, 1910; ratified in time
Jan. 9, 1788 Connecticut
Feb. 6, 1788 Massachusetts Massachusetts, March 4, 1913;
April 28, 1788 Maryland Maryland, April 8,1910; ratified in time
May 23, 1788 South Carolina Kentucky, February 8,1910; ratified in time
June 21, 1788 New Hampshire New Hampshire, March 7, 1913
June 25, 1788 Virginia
July 26, 1788 New York New York, July 12, 1911; ratified in time
Nov. 21, 1789 North Carolina North Carolina, February11, 1911; ratified in time
May 29, 1790 Rhode Island
March 4, 1791 Vermont Vermont, February 19, 1913;
June 1, 1792 Kentucky Kentucky, February 8,1910; ratified in time
June 1, 1796 Tennessee Tennessee, April7, 1911; ratified in time
March 1, 1803 Ohio Ohio, January 19,1911; ratified in time
April 30, 1812 Louisiana Louisiana, June 28, 1912; ratified in time
Dec. 11, 1816 Indiana Indiana, January 30, 1911; ratified in time
Dec. 10, 1817 Mississippi Mississippi, March 7, 1910 ratified in time
Dec. 3, 1818 Illinois Illinois, March 1, 1910; ratified in time
Dec. 14, 1819 Alabama Alabama, August 10, 1909 ratified in time
March 15, 1820 Maine Maine, March 31, 1911; ratified in time
Aug. 10, 1821 Missouri Kansas, March 2,1911; ratified in time
June 15, 1836 Arkansas Arkansas, April 22, 1911 ratified in time
Jan. 26, 1837 Michigan Michigan, February 23, 1911; ratified in time
March 3, 1845 Florida
Dec. 29, 1845 Texas Texas, August 16, 1910; ratified in time
Dec. 28, 1846 Iowa Iowa, February 24, 1911; ratified in time
May 29, 1848 Wisconsin Wisconsin, May 16, 1911; ratified in time
Sept. 9, 1850 California California, January 31, 1911; ratified in time
May 11, 1858 Minnesota Minnesota, June 11, 1912; ratified in time
Feb. 14, 1859 Oregon Oregon, January 23, 1911; ratified in time
Jan. 29, 1861 Kansas Kansas, March 2,1911; ratified in time
June 20, 1863 West Virginia West Virginia, January 31, 1913; ratified in time
Oct. 31, 1864 Nevada Nevada, January 31, 1911; ratified in time
March 1, 1867 Nebraska Nebraska, February 9, 1911; ratified in time
Aug. 1, 1876 Colorado Colorado, February 15, 1911; ratified in time
Nov. 2, 1889 North Dakota North Dakota, February 17, 1911; ratified in time
Nov. 2, 1889 South Dakota South Dakota,February 1, 1911; ratified in time
Nov. 8, 1889 Montana Montana, January 27, 1911; ratified in time
Nov. 11, 1889 Washington Washington,January 26, 1911; ratified in time
July 3, 1890 Idaho Idaho, January 20, 1911; ratified in time
July 10, 1890 Wyoming Wyoming, February 3, 1913; ratified in time
Jan. 4, 1896 Utah
Nov. 16, 1907 Oklahoma Mississippi, March 7, 1910 ratified in time
Jan. 6, 1912 New Mexico New Mexico, February 3,1913; ratified in time
Feb. 14, 1912 Arizona Arizona, April 3, 1912;
Jan. 3, 1959 Alaska
Aug. 21, 1959 Hawaii
37 states ratified in time

By my math, neither the judge mentioned in the movie nor the person that created that document on the federal web site know how to add. http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/html/conamt.html

The above web site is where I acquired the ratification dates for each state.

My reference for when the states joined the union is here:

Statehood Dates

Sorry, that amendment was ratified by the required amount of states.

If anyone would like to review my math, I used an excel spreadsheet that didn’t copy wort crap for this. I will be more then happy to forward it to you for your review.

Dan
[i]Edited the crap out of this:[/i] I have bloody bad eye site, so if you see errors in this document. Trust me, I won’t take offense. So please, point out the error.

Chuckle, by the way. 2 states joined the union the year I was born. Have always know this, but it’s nice to see it in print. ;o)~ ~ ~

Let me add to this. There is a 7 year time period allowed for ratification of an amendment. I believe that was mentioned in my previous post also. This amendment was proposed on July 12,1909. 7 years had not passed.

Hey Dan

In reply to I dispute the opening statments of this movie.

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=223233&messageID=2239286

I’m still not trying to mess with you. I am just whooped and didn’t want ya’ to think I’m ignoring you but I have a lot to do right now. Don’t go away.

Rope, I was just addressing a question you asked in your first response

In reply to Hey Dan

You asked me if I had watched the movie, and I hadn’t. Last night I started watching it and the first comment I seen was by the judge in 2003 stating that 2/3’ds had not passed the 16th amendment. My second post was in trying to dispute what this judge had said. Which, by the way I still haven’t done. I was incorrect in my thinking that 2/3’ds of the states had to ratify the amendment. First, it’s 2/3’ds of the congress before it makes it to the states.

When I get home tonight from work(which I’m on my way to), I will see if I can find the vote count that sent that amendment to the states. I’m trying to address your question ropes with verifiable information. And not bloody Wikipedia. I do not trust that as a source.

Never thought you was ignoring me, I’m just trying to either prove or disprove this judge’s statements from 2003.

By the way, I do not dispute the comments about JP Morgan or the other bankers. Not an issue, they were wily old coots and I totally believe they said those things.

Dan

Dan

In reply to Rope, I was just addressing a question you asked in your first response

It is frustrating, (to say the least about it) trying to verify anything. For me, it’s probably the age thing. I’m not as sharp as I never was. 😐

One of my friends who I used to work for told me that he made more money with a good bank than he did from his Fortune 500 Co.

Now that company is just a husk compared to what it used to be.

Those “lucky” enough to have retired from there continue to see their pensions cuts via rising insurance costs and the rising cost of healthcare.

Wise investments and paying cash for his property have kept my friend from feeling the pinch but the rising price of gas and costly meds developed to treat a myriad of ailments makes it rough on a lot of the elderly and infirm.

Ropes, Just had to laugh :^0

In reply to Dan

‘For me, it’s probably the age thing. I’m not as sharp as I never was.’

It may have been a typo, but it was too close to me. :^0 😀

Dad

Hey Dan

In reply to Rope, I was just addressing a question you asked in your first response

It’s all just a hoot if you don’t think about it.

Here is why they say that this amendment was never ratified.

In reply to Hey Dan

[i]Of the 48 states, here’s the story:

* Eight states (Rhode Island, Utah, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Kentucky, Florida, Virginia and Pennsylvania) did not approve or ratify the amendment.
* Texas and Louisiana were forbidden by their own state constitutions to empower the federal government to tax.
* Vermont and Massachusetts rejected the amendment with a recorded vote count, and only later declared it passed without a recorded vote after the amendment was declared ratified by Knox.
* Tennessee, Ohio, Mississippi, California and Washington violated their state constitutions in their ratification procedures.
* Minnesota did not send any copy of its resolution to Knox, let alone a signed and sealed one, as required.
* And Oklahoma, Georgia and Illinois made unacceptable changes in wording. (Some of the above states also made such changes, in addition to their other unacceptable procedures.)

Take 48 states, deduct these 21, and you have proper ratification by only 27 states — far less than the required 36. [/i]

http://www.givemeliberty.org/features/taxes/19990709_xcdfr_is_income.htm

Ok, thee is no way I can go about verifying these facts. But, I thought you would be interested in seeing why people feel this amendment was never ratified correctly.

“why people feel this amendment was never ratified correctly”

In reply to Here is why they say that this amendment was never ratified.

What you posted is part of it. The other part is the likely result of such incompleteness on one’s tax return!

I agree Absolutely, but the comment by the judge in that film

In reply to Here is why they say that this amendment was never ratified.

Made me want to dig further. That is one of the reasons I don’t like film clips like that. It sensationalizes without telling you specifics.

I wanted at least an understanding of where that statement came from. I don’t know if what I posted is truth or not. Hell, I don’t even know if that is what the judge is referencing when he made that statement in 2003.

People tell you to look at history when they talk about how bad things are today. And how things like privacy issues, corruption of government, abuses of power were what we fought to rid ourselves of. Well, every time I look into the history of this nation I can find examples of the same things happening all the way back to the beginning. The history of this nation has always had controversies. It’s who we are. A large group of individuals with different idea’s on what things mean and how things should be done. There will always be abuses of power, just like there always has been. But, it does nothing but make us stronger. Only quoting, or only knowing the good that has been done blinds a person to what this nation really is. Truth is knowing both the good and the bad.

Ok, I’ll shut up now.

Dan

I’m sure “OnTheRopes” is very pleased by that!

In reply to I agree Absolutely, but the comment by the judge in that film

[i]Ok, I’ll shut up now.

Dan[/i]

:^0

Sorry, that’s not what I think would please OnTheRopes, but you just left it hanging there, y’know? What I think would please him/her/it is this:

[i]Made me want to dig further. That is one of the reasons I don’t like film clips like that. It sensationalizes without telling you specifics.

I wanted at least an understanding of where that statement came from. I don’t know if what I posted is truth or not. Hell, I don’t even know if that is what the judge is referencing when he made that statement in 2003.[/i]

About your dislike for film clips like that, (which I share) — suppose OnTheRopes had presented all the same information as is condensed in that film, plus all the “background” info you’re now digging for. Do you think that you would have read through it, or gotten bored and gone away? I think that in the case of surprising facts like these, the only way to get anybody’s attention is to present them pretty much in the way that film did. I think it was about as good as it could be for its purpose.

Dan, Absolutely is right.

In reply to Here is why they say that this amendment was never ratified.

The fact that I’ll never be completely able to share everything that I know or think I know about anything doesn’t stop me from wanting to know more. If that clip helps/helped a single person to decide to delve deeper into current events and tragic historical events to form their own opinions instead of just accepting what they’re told from a single source I am pleased.

Don’t forget what Deepsand quoted, “As grows the circle of light, so grows the circle of darkness.”

When I was a LEO I liked a challenging criminal case. Still do.

That was quite funny as well! :0

In reply to Dan, Absolutely is right.

:0

For the TR ‘shocked’ emoticon & similar trinkets:

http://articles.techrepublic.com.com/5100-22_11-5269527.html

[edit: Moved ‘shocked’ emoticon from title to message body, where, hopefully, it will actually emote. In the title, it just looks like punctuation & a capital ‘O’.]

[edit 2: That was wrong. The emoticon guide page shows a capital letter ‘O’, but to actually emote, the emoticon must instead use the numeral ‘0’, as with the ‘laugh’ emoticon, as noted in another recent discussion I began.
X-(
I’ll have to retract my message of satisfaction with TR’s management, as their rectification was limited to the one emoticon I specifically called out. Are these features not worthy of proper QA? Uh, no, they’re not, but good for small laughs!]

MY max-level IS hosed. No fix. Don’t care :^0

In reply to Here is why they say that this amendment was never ratified.

Throw a break tag after the emotes and they’ll usually emote WhereTF they’re s’posed to emote.

That…

In reply to MY max-level IS hosed. No fix. Don’t care :^0

.

is…

In reply to That…

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annoying…

In reply to is…

.

but…

In reply to annoying…

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certainly…

In reply to but…

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less so…

In reply to certainly…

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than death & taxes!

In reply to less so…

X-(

Ropes, this is the only way this works for me

In reply to MY max-level IS hosed. No fix. Don’t care :^0

in the url, after the techreublic.com.com/ change the 5208 to 5218 and enter. This should get you directly to ther reply to message. That is how I did this.

Dad

Thanks, again to Absolutely for this info

to give the management feedback on this feature:

In reply to Ropes, this is the only way this works for me

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=222970&messageID=2236469

Iraq is a money funnel

In reply to Interesting quote

What kind of leadership sends cash into a war zone?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,2008189,00.html

http://www.amconmag.com/2005/2005_10_24/cover.html

http://ipsnews.net/africa/interna.asp?idnews=25168

“The US flew nearly $12bn in shrink-wrapped $100 bills into Iraq, then distributed the cash with no proper control over who was receiving it and how it was being spent.

The staggering scale of the biggest transfer of cash in the history of the Federal Reserve has been graphically laid bare by a US congressional committee.

In the year after the invasion of Iraq in 2003 nearly 281 million notes, weighing 363 tonnes, were sent from New York to Baghdad for disbursement to Iraqi ministries and US contractors. Using C-130 planes, the deliveries took place once or twice a month with the biggest of $2,401,600,000 on June 22 2004, six days before the handover.

“The government has not lifted a finger to get back the $50 million…”

In reply to Iraq is a money funnel

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7306162/site/newsweek/

Money funnel – New Link

In reply to Iraq is a money funnel

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/60950?page=1

Hint: Don’t start out with the idea that all theories are wrong

In reply to Interesting quote

Think along the lines that it’s possible that if even one theory is right it may lead you to real understanding.

Push your previous assumptions and beliefs to the back of your mind.

All of them. Regardless of the source.

Look at the problems with a clean slate in your hand and mark down what you really know to be true, not just what you’ve been told is true.

The old saying that goes, “He who is convinced against their will remains of the same opinion still.” That’s why you must think for yourself. Not like I or anyone else tell you or lead you to think and believe but in the sure and certain knowledge that we hold to be self-evident, that all men are created equal.

Why does it cost millions and millions of dollars to run for President?

In reply to Interesting quote

Where does the money eventually end up?

Notice to GG and GG only. Hovering chopper in the air.

In reply to Interesting quote

And I think I’m having a flashback. What a trip huh?

Don’t you hate it

In reply to Notice to GG and GG only. Hovering chopper in the air.

When that happens?

Me too…

oh – I see.

In reply to Notice to GG and GG only. Hovering chopper in the air.

I have a thought on that. Assume you do to.

I’ll pm you – as soon as I’ve finished this 14 person investigation in the secure unit….. no, I’m not kidding, I’ve been given a really good one, here

Bleepin’ users….

GG

Ropes

In reply to Notice to GG and GG only. Hovering chopper in the air.

will pm from home….. every webmail a/c I have won’t send, and I’ve no idea why!

GG

Humph. Where do I come up with these ideas?

In reply to Interesting quote

I was busy late last night thinking ’bout stuff I can do when I came up with a revolutionary idea to help my neighbors.

It probably won’t pay me anything but I don’t care. (Jimmy cracked corn…)

I low-balled (I thought), a Tech Support/Installation type contract to some nice folks but it was still “big bucks” for them so I didn’t get the job. 🙂
Today I’m gonna’ go over there and tell ’em that I’ll do all of the work that needs to be done for FREE if they’ll just take about three hours out of their slavish workdays to listen to a few FREE videos and look at a few links.

If they don’t like the idea of “at no charge” to them I’ll double my FREE offer. :^0

Maybe I’m stoopid to just volunteer in that way.

So?
It’s not like they don’t have a lot of hard working people that they talk to everyday. (Doubles everywhere in this post) 🙂

Gotta’ go a few more miles yet all y’all.

Peace on you. 😡

What sacrifice? Who was that Ghandi man and what would he say about peace? Why should I care?

Brief update

In reply to Interesting quote

Massively edited after new information became clear to me.

Make of this anything you wish to make.

Peace.

Interesting news – Interesting to me

In reply to Interesting quote

There were 135 workers laid-off from the local area hospitals.

The only way I found out about it is that I know people who still work there. Never saw that news in the paper. Maybe they just got tired of using the word layoff. :^0

The paper does report report that there’s going to be increased surveillance for seatbelt compliance which is a good thing because community health-care just went down another notch.

Bummer. The closest hospital just added a new wing too.

Dbl Post

In reply to Interesting quote

.

Meaningless random thought

In reply to Interesting quote

Isn’t technology great! 😐
It’s incredible that for YEARS I’ve been able to call my answering machine from any phone in the world, if I remember the code, to retrieve my messages and still leave them on the device for review at home. I need a better device tho’. I can’t change the code on this one…

Another meaningless random thought (old one though)

In reply to Interesting quote

WTF is up with all of the dehumanizing (to me) “reality” shows that are provided for “entertainment” purposes? I have to ask myself is that what I like to see? How did they get to be so popular to sheople err… I mean certain people?

That dang ol’ Apotheon can make me think sometimes

In reply to Interesting quote

Hate when that happens. I decided to have a personal, “random act of kindness day” everyday. My idea of a random act of kindness is for me give everyone I interact with a random act of kindness if I can. What do I have to lose?

My dignity? :^0 :^0 :^0

So let’s see… what did I do today. I waved and smiled at people I don’t even know, about the only ones who waved back were the big-truck drivers. We’re used to doing that though so I wasn’t too surprised there.

What else. I passed a guy on foot just when it started sprinkling. I turned around, went back and asked if he needed a lift but he was alright. Thanked me for it. (For what ? -I didn’t even do anything.) :0

Pulled up to a guy whose pick-up truck was sitting in the road and asked if he needed help. He said it’d be nice if I could help him push it further off the road. I looked it over for a second, said I’ll try. Pulled in and parked my ride, unstuck Oscar from my shirt, laid my good hand on the truck and away we went. While we were doing that two other guys came up and helped the two of us. Strangers all.

I haven’t seen violent action on anyones part locally all day.

Makes me wonder.

Note to Apotheon: Sheesh dude – I hate it when you make me think.

Ain’t I a stinker?

In reply to That dang ol’ Apotheon can make me think sometimes

I consider inspiring people to think to be right up there with any act of kindness I might offer. When someone tells me I “made” them think, I consider it a good day’s work.

So . . . thanks.

Smells like roses

In reply to Ain’t I a stinker?

Thank you

quite welcome

In reply to Smells like roses

I’m glad you like it.

Don’t stop thinking people. You’ll come up with ideas of your own

In reply to Interesting quote

I foresee a good :|
“spin” job coming up soon

In reply to Interesting quote

but they’re losing it. :0
All too soon 🙂
to meet the requirements.

So? It’ll get worserer (w) before it gets betterer.

I’m the deciderer

What does China think of it all?

Where TF did I leave my gleeful Chinese dude emote?

Won’t post anything (maybe) to my profile until… I see a guy I know.

Chinese people are cool. Who leads them?

Likes and dislikes aside. Think.

In reply to I foresee a good :|
“spin” job coming up soon

Spin – Did Rosie quit? What does she say about losing her job? Why would she get fired? Does she know something about anything or was she just talking/raising awareness? I know the answers… does anyone else?

I just saw the Navy band on NBC TV

In reply to Interesting quote

err… I mean US Navy band. Love those people. Seriously. 😡

Checking my watch now

In reply to Interesting quote

You’re on a timer :^0
and I don’t want to hear no ding.

You’re coming in 4 square

In reply to Interesting quote

Knock knock – Who’s there?

I am

Food for thought

In reply to Interesting quote

http:/www.truehealthfacts.com/

http://www.wanttoknow.info/operationnorthwoods

http://www.wanttoknow.info/warcoverup

http://www.wanttoknow.info/warisaracket

?

In reply to Interesting quote

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=457934&in_page_id=1770&ct=5

Well, shucks.

In reply to ?

That’s pretty disturbing.

Yes it is. It’s also disturbing to me

In reply to Well, shucks.

It’s also disturbing to me that I live in the first in the United States where a University study was done on every citizen in the and federal funds have continued funding the project until the present date. What’s distressing to me about it is that I can’t find any of the results of the study anywhere. Just that a study was and is being done on the citizens, regardless of their current location. The incentive to voluntarily participate was and is cash that amounts to substantial incentive for a few minutes time.

Talk about picking a crappy for individuals rights and privacy. :0

I’m not a part of that study but family members are. Though it may be perfectly innocent I would think that the results of studies should be freely and completely available to the people A. Participating
B. If tax dollars are used the results should be made available to those who paid the tax.

Jobs. What jobs? :^0

In reply to Interesting quote

http://pressesc.com/01180202266_eevs

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/052707Y.shtml

Let’s see besides the umptyumpt dozens of resumes I’ve faxed, hand delivered and emailed I have applied at burger restaurants, gas stations, bix-box stores, Mom and Pop stores all nogo. The best one was when I got turned down for a job shoveling cow-shlt. No kidding.

If the department of Homeland Hysteria knows where there are any slavish low-wage, high insurance cost, jobs I’m sure they’ll help me out.

I’m hoping for peace to suddenly break out so that things get better for everyone everywhere.

So, while I’m looking for a better paying job I’m volunteering my time helping others anyway I can, where it makes sense to me to help.

Edited: If I was paranoid… Nahhh… There just aren’t any jobs. I’m definitely not going to move and start that whole debt/credit cycle all over again. Uhuh. Nope. Ain’t gonna.

When you can’t even get a job shoveling cow-shlt you know there aren’t any jobs. I’m a huge fan of right-sized government and doing the legally correct and honest thing.

Here’s Tom Jefferson again: “If a nation expects to be ignorant and free,

In reply to Interesting quote

From: http://rense.com/general76/lekth.htm “It is for this reason that Thomas Jefferson is my all-time favorite American patriot.” – Mine too. B-)

Well… Him and one other rogue character…

I gotta go watch… something… :0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqxmPjB0WSs

Crank your speakers up all the way ya’ Lazeeboy bistards

Please

I ask you to simply not dismiss me, (messenger/message) without hearing what I have to say even if, (especially if) it’s via www proxy.

Woohoo – 3 hots and a cot. Don’t forget me.

Edit. I don’t know why I bought a grill. Shoot, yesterday I had 2 mini-bagels with whipped cream cheese.

The day before I had half-a sausage on two slices of bread with mustard.

I run my well water through the same grounds in my single-cup coffeemaker up to 4 times before I change the grounds and I foregoe using cream and sugar even.

I’m going to call it, “The Patriot Diet Plan”, or something else.

My exercise program is going good too. I find myself walking a lot more than I used to. Pacing and thinking some too.

Strange thing? I feel free and alive and ready to take on my countries worst enemies.

C’mon let’s go. I’ll lead from the front. All y’all in the rear just try to keep up.

NBC ROCKS!

Keith does too

I’ll remember his sorryass.

Well hey…

In reply to Interesting quote

We’ve gotten the World peace riddle solved. Now what do you want to do?

Well obviously …

In reply to Well hey…

implement it. Don’t go away. Keep making noise. People don’t “believe” stupid things, they just conform to whatever noises they hear the most, so keep making these intelligent noises, man!

Absolutely

In reply to Well obviously …

I have ideas on how to accomplish the above but after I worked out this whole issue for myself I’m basically just plain heart-broken. I understand what it’s all about and my grief overwhelms me at times.

I’m probably not going to keep posting to this thread after this post. I can’t bear to think of it all.

Before I go I want to say thank you. Thank you.

I see interconnectivity in many other areas and feel that I have solutions but again, who am I? Just a lone voice in the darkness who had to speak up, and speak out no matter the consequences.

My ass is kicked on this discussion.

Change is in the wind. Smells fantastic. Peace.

Just for the heck of it

In reply to Interesting quote

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RUINFRYHS6E

Perrenial favorite

In reply to Interesting quote

http://youtube.com/watch?v=CbgqM29_ZlA

My final thoughts, maybe…

In reply to Interesting quote

This thread may be lacking active participants today because I’m certain that many US citizens are enjoying the Memorial Holiday. My mood swings up when I see the troops who aren’t in peril on TV and swings down when I think of all of the unnecessary War deaths in all countries that have occurred and continue to occur since 1913 for no good reason other than to raid the wealth of the nations people at war..

I feel that people have generally stopped thinking that there are any meaningful results that they can conclude from the links and thoughts provided here.

Speaking from my perspective, hopefully everyone on Holiday is spending it with their families and having a good time. I hope they’ll give some thought to others who may not be as fortunate and continue to think of the troops; folks exactly like you and I; long after it’s fashionable to do so and a lot longer after our government “decider” plans for us to remember “anything”.

Buck Fush! All of ’em!!! I know what I think. What do you know about what you think?

My wife and daughter have spent three days all day selling items they create at a local area flea market and even though they are very low cost items, people just don’t seem to be buying. In the economic situation we find ourselves in every little-bit helps keep the lights on.I’ve been painting my barn roof because the price of gas prevents me from socializing at will.

I’m of the opinion that many have lost sight of some true values and substituted ideas that possessions define their worth as individuals meaning that people generally seem to want the biggest, best, fastest, sleekest, latest, new ?thing? whatever the ?thing? may be and are willing to go into debt to get it.

As a result I think that I may be somewhat better off than many because I enjoy the possessions I have and will only spend cash after thinking long and hard about it.

I think I see a debtor nation; one where people have just accepted because they were told that they must be thin, coiffed, polished and have every type, several types of ointment/treatment for every body part so that they look “good” and then they teach or allow someone else to teach their children the same concepts.

Think about it. Something as simple as lawns.

I think that a lot of folks spend far too much money on having a perfect lawn. It’s gotten to the point where there are fines in some governmental districts and those fines are in the form of a ridiculous amount you’ll have to pay to the governmental district if they send someone out to mow your lawn to an “acceptable” height. I call that a Lawn tax.
People will throw bag after bag of chemicals on their lawn so that it looks as good or better than the neighbors lawns and then they’ll work for hours taking care of green grass instead of doing something truly useful. They become slaves to their lawns without really thinking about it. Or they’ll pay someone else to do that and then look down on them because they’re in the service industry and don’t earn as much. Gas, mowers, leave whackers, rakes, vaccuums, blowers; you name it. Gotta have it. Go in debt to get it so that they can slavishly work and worry if they killed the last dandelion. Ridiculous, if you ask me.

What industry are you in.
Hmmm…
I know what the odds are if you’re an American.

Your service business isn’t anchored to the soil like a manufacturing business.

When someone else will provide the same service you provide and they’ll do it for less money what’s the decision going to be? After all we’re conditioned not to expect employee loyalty by the company to the employee so why should you expect any services you offer to keep you at the same income level.

Meanwhile there are many people who are just like them really (without the lawns and toys and extended credit/debt) who deserve a voice in this world as much as anyone else does. In many places they’re actually happier with much less than many Americans I see who rush to and fro like lemmings to get to a job they hate, to work for a boss they despise doing something they’d rather not do so they can spend their money on things that will make them ?feel better? about themselves and be somehow, in only their own eyes, better off.

Then the cycle repeats itself on and on while the garbage mountains continue to grow, filled with yesterdays ?must have? item.

I’m concerned that people won’t focus on the real issues this country faces, that they too in fact face, that they won’t vote and really understand what they’re voting for from more than one source if they do vote.

I can see what’s happening in Venezuela happening here too. If you can’t, that’s fine, maybe you haven’t thought about it as much as I have. Maybe you don’t care what happens in Venezuela because it’s not happening to you. Maybe you don’t care what happens to me as long as it doesn’t happen to you. That’s fine.

I can see myself being incarcerated for no reason, much like the Jewish people during WWII, having to work at hard labor with the exception that nothing will be done by anyone to help me because after all, the thinking would go, I was arrested so it follows that I must have done something wrong.

I am probably one of the most law abiding people I know. I believe in peace for everyone everywhere. And not the peace I choose for them but the peace that they choose for themselves.

I also think that few are ever going to listen or completely read this entire discussion encouraging them to think because it’s not presented with sound bytes, graphics, music and video in an entertaining format packaged for the consumer on the go. That, to me, is very sad because all I want is for my fellow Americans to think of what has become of their country and the world because their attention was focused elsewhere. All I want is for myself and my fellow American to be free in the country that I love that was originally paid for in blood because the thoughts and ideas of a few people joined together made a difference.

Follow your own money. Where does it always end up eventually?

In a bank.

Edited: Guess I wasn’t done. :0
You pay for your new technology when your older tech worked well enough.

For example: A small open wood fire cooks food quite well but we don’t cook that way outside much anymore.

You’ll do like I just did and buy a barbecue grill only you’ll get the more expensive model because that’s what your neighbor has.

You’ll judge a person as possibly unworthy because they drive an old beat to crap pickup truck like Sam Walton often did while you’re driving a Lexus or Mercedes that you’ll never own because it “makes more sense” for you to lease it :^0
instead of paying $1500.00 cash for a beater that gets you everywhere you need to go. You’re the smart one cuz you got the Lexus. :^0 :^0

Sorry. 😐

Where does the money go?

Buy something and stick with it. Drive it ’til the wheels fall off.

Instead of throwing it out learn how to recover your furniture yourself with the time you save not slaving over your lawn.

But then you probably don’t have a lot of free-time because making all of your payments on stuff you don’t really own until it’s paid for, which is when it will likely wear out, takes up most of your day.
That and all of the taxes you have to pay can wear a body out besides seeing the rising cost of food, in part caused by the ethanol program that you may not think you’re supporting but in fact are supporting because you didn’t read what the issues are but accepted what you were told because it’s trendy to be eco-friendly and you may not have been aware of your representatives views and the issue itself if you even bothered voting.

Oh that’s right, you were taking the kids to where they could learn from someone else instead of talking to them yourself to see what’s really going on in their lives and if they’re really learning anything useful and creative. That’s the schools job. NOT!

I guess it turned into a rant but puhleeze consider that what you think you know about anything may not be all there is to know and what you don’t know can really hurt you in the long run.

That’s all for now. Thanks for listening and hopefully thinking.

If anyone doesn’t like my opinion I’m going to blame Apotheon first, Absolutely, very close running second and Tigger/tryten/w2ktechman/TE2/Daddoode/DuctTape guy/ all tied for third place. 🙂

Okay, now I’m pissed

In reply to My final thoughts, maybe…

Third place??? I only get third place????? In a multiple tie???

You’re smegged now, buddy. I can find your tail. I have your IP and an attitude problem!

Seriously, you make a hell of a lot of sense.

We have placed the wrong importance on the wrong things. Why? I don’t have the first clue. I have never lived that way, but someone who stole my identity taught me how to survive.

There is legislation coming in my state against pan-handlers. You’ve all seen them- a cardboard sign that says “help me” on the side of the freeway- or in my metro, accosting people for money.

I agree with this legislation whole heartedly. A local news team followed a pair of pan-handlers back to their $350,000 house with the two cars and a truck plus boat and asked some searching questions. And were told that begging was more lucrative than their jobs.

Wish I had thought of that. NOT!!!

When I was in need, I called on friends for temporary support… when they could give it… not often… but depended on me. Just me.

If I slept “outside”, oh well. At least I slept.

Let me tell you about chemo while you are trying to find/work a job. Or not. Mostly because it is fricking depressing.

I could list hundreds of points. Why?

There are serious things wrong with the way this country values things. I can list many. What the hell, I have already pissed off Max, I am sure that I can find many to refute me.

Cut off welfare spending. Do it now. Offer work re-engagement programs. Good ones that have an attached career path.

Quit with the Lindsey Lohan/Paris Hilton/Brittany obsession. They are cute. They have no brains. They should be OVER.

Consider that stealing money from my pocket (can we all say IRS?) is a crime. How you fund your pets is YOUR issue.

And while we’re here, WHY are we funding many of these programs? I get the one about medical care. I get the ones about support. But there are NUMEROUS programs in between that have little to no value.

And just a thought… why are we paying out to a guy wearing more bling than Mr.T for NOT killing the mother of his numerous babies (that are his income ticket, after all)and not working… and oh, paying her too???

I get to be first in line on the blame train. I have even more that you haven’t seen yet.

In Ropes’ defense …

In reply to Okay, now I’m pissed

I spend a lot of time in the TR top 10, and I’m much more abrasive than you are, Tig! That makes me noticeable. Or, impossible to ignore, depending on one’s goal.

😀

You know I agree with all the content of your post, but I want to zero in on “the Lindsey Lohan/Paris Hilton/Brittany obsession” because I personally object to the stereotype that pretty = stupid. Of course, it applies very well to many people who are paid [b]only[/b] to be pretty. And, a lot of people who [b]have nothing else going for them[/b] are paid only to be pretty, because there is an audience for pretty faces which never say anything [b]challenging[/b]. That, to me, is what is irritating about studio pop stars, not their pleasant looks. I may go to your “what kind of world” thread and post a summary of this. It would be something about welcoming, or relishing, challenges. Cancer survivors seem to “get it” more consistently than any other demographic, in my experience, so you may be able to find the right words before I do. Either way, keep up the great work!

You should be pissed Ma’am

In reply to Okay, now I’m pissed

for the right reasons and I don;t consider those reasons to be the same ones you’ve posted because I seriously wonder if you’ve given the backtrail enough reasonable thought and objective viewing.

Let me put it like this, of the third ranking opinions I’ll put you in the lead ‘cuz you’re still here.

Now think some more afore I come over there and shine a big ol’ spotlight right in your eyes and holler at you. 😡

I wonder where GG is and I swear I hope they’re alright over there.

You did follow my links didn’t you Tigger? For yourself, you should. For my country you must and then I just ask you to think on them!

GG’s here!

In reply to You should be pissed Ma’am

and you should have FINALLY received your pm……

On top of everything else, my lappie BSOD’d me on Saturday night, too….. spent all damn day rebuilding yesterday…..

Miffed.

Need new gadget.

GG

]:)

I hope you’ll share more such thoughts, soon!

In reply to My final thoughts, maybe…

[i]I feel that people have generally stopped thinking that there are any meaningful results that they can conclude from the links and thoughts provided here.[/i]

We think along similar lines, Ropes, but you’ve provided a lot of information to process in a short time. You’ve challenged a lot of stupid ideas that a lot of people hold for no better reason than habit. No bad habit is easy to break, even habits of thinking stupid thoughts. Give us time.

Like I said earlier

In reply to I hope you’ll share more such thoughts, soon!

I’ll lead from the front not from behind some comfy desk where I’d be surrounded by lobbyists and special interest groups who would be willing to pay me virtually anything to go against the will of the very people whose voices I represent.

Not going to happen.

I said that I hope the people in the rear would try to keep up and I meant it.

Stay tuned.

In lieu of looking at something I might say tune in Montel, what’s his background? I mean besides being a former Navy intelligence officer. I know that I like what he’s doing. I believe he’s a true patriot and it’s a damnshame that I can’t send him email. Why is that?

Likes and dislikes aside, I really hope and pray that Rosie gets her own show. I’ll tune it in everyday.
Just saw her in her big ol’ PEACE t-shirt. Too cool.

I’m sharing this entire discussion with as many people as I can

In reply to I hope you’ll share more such thoughts, soon!

to raise awareness.

And I thought it was interesting that my neighbor

In reply to I hope you’ll share more such thoughts, soon!

was mowing her lawn today (3 1/4 “) while I was out looking for my lost dog and I asked her if she’d seen him. She said she hadn’t seen a rabbit or anything all day.

I’ve since found my dog and while just out in my yard, much smaller than hers, there are not only rabbits but squirrels, for the first time in 20 years, chipmunks. I’d rather watch them then mow my lawn.

Basically, they were here before I was.

What have you read about corporate farming and genetically engineered corn/produce? I’ve read about six different sides to that issue as well and know what I think about it and how it ties in to this discussion too.

Local area news

In reply to Interesting quote

Just now? Union workers wage cuts, longer hours for the same pay and seniority buyouts in another manufacturing plant.

Why do I often hear people working in the service industry blitching that their manufacturing industry buyout money didn’t go very far. I think I know, having given it some thought.

Edited for this link

Have you ever studied

In reply to Interesting quote

the Japanese Keiritsu style of doing business? Awesome? I’ve formerly held a stoopid prejudice against my friends in Japan, (the Pearl Harbor thing) but a long time ago, I forced myself to look past it as they’re incredibly creative people. Smart, well educated, hard-working and patriotic citizens.

I prefer buying American-made/brand products myself but Japanese products are absolutely worth, at minimum, a second look no matter where they’re manufactured.

Personal responsibility for my own healthcare

In reply to Interesting quote

Awhile back I had a mole on my throat that started to get hard and weird so what’d I do?

Let my fingernails grow a little longer and yanked it out. Hooaaa.

Hurt and bled for a little bit but it’s all better now. Didn’t cost me a dime. No scar.

:0
🙁 🙂

Just one more

In reply to Interesting quote

http://www.newswithviews.com/Vieira/edwin55.htm

Another

In reply to Interesting quote

http://www.newswithviews.com/Cutler/michael3.htm

Changed my mind about posting more

In reply to Interesting quote

As I feel it’s the right thing to do. I haven’t given up. Once again, anyone can feel free to make anything they’d like to out of that. Perhaps I’ve had an epiphany that shook me to my core beliefs and I’m the only one.

So?

What do you think of the Miss Universe incident? Two sides to that coin, who/what do you think is right? No single sources people, multiple pro and con viewpoints, you know how to navigate the web right? :0

Had you promised to post more, [i]then[/i] changed your mind…

In reply to Changed my mind about posting more

we’d never know for sure! Lucky for us, your previous statement was the opposite, and we weren’t left hanging, so to speak.

:^0

So, there was an incident? Oh, crap, I guess I’ll Google it…

[i]What do you think of the Miss Universe incident? Two sides to that coin, who/what do you think is right? No single sources people, multiple pro and con viewpoints, you know how to navigate the web right?[/i]

Uh, let’s see, the parallel lines are latitude, and the not-quite-parallel lines are not, and the magnet points at an erased hard drive, correct?

Yup

In reply to Had you promised to post more, [i]then[/i] changed your mind…

🙂
B-)

“Click here to see some of the photos”

In reply to Changed my mind about posting more

I think, like every scandal, it’s a publicity stunt perpetrated by somebody opportunistic who no talent of its own. I won’t read more of it.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,238513,00.html

You saw more

In reply to “Click here to see some of the photos”

than you understand. I think. It IS truly ironic idint it?
Whoa dude. B-)
Party Rock on!!!

I recommend Montgomery Gentry and crank it all the way up.

Your neighbors will love you for it. 🙂
If you ask them.

Who’d fire

In reply to You saw more

Mr. Trump? :^0
Some redneck :^0
All of the pieces of the puzzle are or were here all y’all.

Check your archives. :^0
Posted at the “wrong” level first time around.

Edited because I CAN edit. Thank you. :^0
Crank it up while you’re looking things over.

Not sure that was what Ropes was thinking of

In reply to “Click here to see some of the photos”

At the recent Miss Universe pageant, Miss USA was loudly booed by the audience. She also fell on her ass.

Local news covered her fall before also mentioning that she had been booed.

People are tired of the US and are willing to tell us about it, it seems.

Took a moment to look for a citation, can’t find one. Seems we’re all going to forget about it.

I’m also not sure.

In reply to Not sure that was what Ropes was thinking of

That sounds unfortunate, too.

A bit distressing Shout out to my fellow American Beth… below.

In reply to Not sure that was what Ropes was thinking of

to me in lieu of a citation and forgetting about everything here including me

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s169/sharewhat/ScreenShot334.jpg

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=l&hl=en&q=museum&near=San+Francisco,+California,+United+States&ie=UTF8&view=map&om=1&layer=c&cbll=37.786543,-122.493491&cbp=2,301.359472786112,0.597284478470746,3&ll=37.797475,-

No “spin” at any of those links is there?

Raise your hands anyone if you didn’t already know that “Big Brother” could do that.

I’m certain that the fine people working at Google don’t have nefarious intentions. I have a friend who works there on their fantastic book project whatsitsname?
(thinking)

I can see where the ability to do that depending upon need and location might be useful to LEO’s (who are generally pretty nice people) for identifying/tracking potential crimes and/or perpetrators. What was it Apotheon has posted at his blog that really started this entire thread? Tantamount to a thought crime?

Things are looking up a little bit locally. Kind of – the garbage dump just hired a 4 more people and the road commission put on 3 road-service jobs. The guy I talked to said there were 300 people standing in line for those jobs. They pay $8.50/hr.

There are a total of 5 jobs like that for my area. That’s all.

My neighbor loses his good paying manufacturing job four weeks from now and lined-up a a job that pays less and is 3 hours from here.

I talked to him while he was mowing his lawn. 🙁

I’m not a lemming and actually had what I think was a productive day.
I know how to hold-on and hang-on until the manufacturing base that I think this country needs allows the US to not be a service based economy.

Decent paying manufacturing jobs would require that I relocate and start the debt/credit cycle all over again which I will not do.

There are a couple of positions for degreed people in another area of expertise but the job restrictions are, I think absolutely oppressive and unnecessary.

Besides taxes I see 6 different hands in the pockets of whoever takes those jobs, if the Homeland Hysteria dept. even allows them permission, that is.

Do you recycle? We recycle virtually everything here. It’s only old-fashioned common sense which has, unfortunately, become not very common anymore.

We even turn off the lights if no-one is using them. I can see well enough in the dark. It’s not as “easy” and “convenient” but I’ve thought about it. Saves money.

From Vice-President of Operations to saving bottle and can refund cash for Christmas. Woohoo.

Long story there that I’m not even going to bother trying to explain. Not germain to the discussion or is it?

Have to think about that.

Do you know what the moon looks like tonight or were/are you doing “important” things? Or maybe you’re just plain-tired after dumping chemicals on your picture perfect lawn, and rushing to and from your service jobs? Good commute was it? :^0

Oh I forgot, it’s grammatical errors that make you look stoopid! :^0 :^0 :^0 🙁 🙁 🙁

I also discovered, from my neighbor, that it costs $100 with increasing fees (taxes) for each occurrence if an animal control person picks up your lost dog instead of just bringing it back to you or giving you a phone call. Any dog with a tag cost’s $100 to buy for a tiny bit of metal and a few minutes work. I call the above the “dog tax”.

Gotta’ pamper ol’ Fido though. I think.
Toys up the wazoo when a stick works great for mine. Mine knows how to sit, fetch, lay-down and I swear he almost talks. I didn’t have to pay someone to train him. I like him, it was more fun spending time with him, seeing if I could do it by myself. Learned a few things too. The hard way. :^0

I don’t condone drinking and driving, in the least, but maybe now I know why Nick Nolte, Charlie Sheen and others got trashed and detained. Maybe they finally realized what’s been going on under their very noses.

Maybe the Ozzman and many, many, many others had it all figured out before me too. What do I know? Oh, that’s right, I used Google and listened, really listened hard, to a ton, a ton of music from the 50’s on up until today.

BIG shout out Beth: Tracy Chapman -Talkin’ Bout A Revolution from her “Heaven’s Here on Earth” CD. You may find it at youtube.com too, I haven’t looked since I have the original disc also stored on my pc.

BTW – Today the moon looks like this :0 to me.

One last edit. It’s odd that some of you in-depth, hands-on experienced, forever critical thinking, trained (?) in multiple fields, IT Pro’s have a hard time even getting on-line and/or broadband access.

Doh!

I don’t have a degree. Sorry, I’m SOL. :^0

I use all 5 of my senses wide-full-throttle-open too. Everyday.

I hardly ever have problems on-line. It only happens when I read and listen to “somebodies” idea of too much about stuff that interests me and my access is throttled back. Coincidental and irrelevant isn’t it?

I’m thinkin’ I should give my ol’ friend Teddly “gutpile” Deadly a ring-up or visit..I know, exactly, where his dadspad is located. Nice guy. Super-nice as a matter of fact. Grew up with him and a couple of other SuperBowl… Oh wait… Winners!

What a head to head competition THAT was, when I wasn’t as old as I am now. Knocked his ass out, almost. Career highpoint for moi…! :^0
Woohoo. :^0
I also know a few astronauts and BBall, Pro Golf stars from the good ol’ daze/neighborhood and two people who ran for my homestate Senate. One of ’em I’ve known for 42 years, the other only 40 years.

Think they’ll listen to my sorry ass? :^0

Let me see, Hmmm… how many Champions of NASCAR and racing engineering do I know locally… off of the top of my head 1,2,3,4,5,6 ok… 7. Then there are all of those Mobil Engineering dudes, that’s another what… 14! Of course I have my good bud who’s a Veep or something stoopid at Boeing. Almost (never) forgot about him

Then there are the doods that build hospitals and fire-stations and libraries in their spare time. They can’t golf for shlt though.

Then there’s that dood in Georgia, ol’ knows everybody dood. Whatsisname? Took me out to dinner… every day… way out. Taught me to golf/laughed his ass off. I still have the ball from the best golf-shot I ever made under his direction/advice. It’s within arms reach. On the original tee too

Mind explosion. :^0

I think.

Piss me off whydoncha?

Skeered? Nope. Downright pissed off? Yep. Hovering chopper in the air. Last edit for time and date stamp. “Miles to go before I sleep…” Still… Noisy aren’t they. If you pay attention, they’re as bad as the real deal. 🙁 :^0

I’m hoping for enough peace

In reply to Interesting quote

to breakout everywhere so I can find a good paying job with a company that won’t violate my rights as I think of them. As long I can do “a” job well and am unimpaired I don’t believe that any-sized business has a “right” to make me take a drug screen. Whatever I do with my free time is my business.

What do you really know about the “War on Drugs”?

What do you really know about Carl Sagan and many others?

What do you really know about the demographics of prisoners incarcerated in the United States?

I’m sure you’ve thought of those issues from as many different perspectives as I have. :^0

Edited to add this:

What do you really know about cancer and big-pharm, Chinese, native American and wholistic/holistic medicines, nutrition. I’ve dug in way far deep on those.

Seems like I have an opinion for myself there too.

Forgot to put a big C on Chinese.
Still editing:
Have you seen their architecture? I know what it looks like to me in comparison (mostly) to what I see and have seen in my travels here.

What do you really know about native American culture, thoughts, ideals and practices?

I’m trying, unsuccessfully, not to mention the Incan, Mexican and Mayan cultures and demographics so that you don’t have too much homework. 🙂

One more edit then I promise I’m done:
How fast can you read/glance and comprehend?
What’s the best reading/glancing method for you as an individual?

Do you need contacts or glasses? Really?
What are the alternatives and what’s on the fore-front/bleeding edge of technology? How can that possibly be and how can you drive the price down so that more people can benefit?

OK. Talking to self – “That’s enough of this shlt already. Shaddup stoopid!” :^0

I broke a promise based on my words alone that I made of my own free will and re-edited. I’m not sure why I did that exactly. Hmmm… let me think. 🙂
Words and images are cheap, mostly free and a clever saying proves nothing. :^0

Had to throw that last emote in there. Dunno why.

Hint: If it’s not natural… don’t “do” it. Sticking holes in your arms ferdamshure isn’t natural along with a few other things I can think of by myself. What do you know and think?

Mike who?

In reply to Interesting quote

Why?

Remember

In reply to Interesting quote

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SmVAWKfJ4Go

Edited to add this: What do you really know about disturbed (?) teens that inflict injuries upon themselves?

Humph

In reply to Interesting quote

http://youtube.com/watch?v=T_P5ONVyF7U

BJ and the affordables

In reply to Interesting quote

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gIva5JW5uqQ

BJ himself called them that when I first saw it in concert.

Tom Clancy novels

In reply to Interesting quote

Could they relate to todays news about the frequent flier and fit into this entire thread.

You talking the TB guy?

In reply to Tom Clancy novels

If so you might be thinking Michael Chricton who wrote “outbreak”.

I’ve not seen anything from Tom Clancy on it, but there he writes a lot.

I don’t think that you have a right to endanger other humans, and this moron knew he had a bad strain of TB and knew it was contagious before he left the US. He was told to stay in Italy. He snuck out.

He snuck back in through Czech and Canada.

I think the government has every right to quarentine him.

James

Great to see you James

In reply to You talking the TB guy?

Do you know what Tom Clancy’s background is, in-depth?
Have you read and re-read all of his pre- Op-Center novels to understand what he’s saying or did you just give them s once-over like most people seem to do because they already have a preformed opinion on it and are busy doing more “important” things?

Who was President during which periods? What happened during those times? It takes a lot of glue for any story to stick together but I don’t just fritter around when I’m multi-tasking either.

How much extra cash would you have at the end

In reply to Interesting quote

of your hard-working day if you weren’t legally and illegally and astronomically taxed almost to death? Enough to invest wisely for a nice retirement I’ll betcha. Self-responsibility?

Where do your tax dollars go? I mean where do they really go? Have you looked it up using multiple sources or were you distracted? How responsible and efficient is your local, state and “federal” government looking out for you personally? I know how well mine is looking out for me.

What do you reallyknow about Unions and steelworkers.

In reply to Interesting quote

Was anyone beaten to a bloody pulp or just their knuckles/fists banging on the door for heat.

I apologize folks, seriously, but I am what you get when there’s a thirst for knowledge but no money to pay for it and no “directed/desired” curriculum. :^0

WYSIWYG

My public libraries saw me regularly from the time I could read (big grocery… Dad laughs. :^0 Ok… Big George) and actually think for myself. I can’t quite keep track of time though. With whom do I have that in common? Out of place but I don’t care… Stacks of books, every week, never a late fee. 🙂
Read an entire encyclopedia my Mom bought for me. Don’t care if you believe it. Oh… that’s right! You might buy a book or two when you’re out on the weekly spending spree :^0 even though the public library is still open.
There seem to be a few books missing now from the Congressional Library though.

Hmmm…

Which ones?

WWWWW and H?

Elementary…

I have a marsupial kitten

In reply to Interesting quote

sticking out of my black, short-sleeved shirt pocket, it’s where he wanted to go. How could that even be relevant here?

It’s a bummer when you can’t blame editing on a kitten on the keyboard. :^0

First prize – Gold star

In reply to Interesting quote

To the first two who can reason it all out. I’ll split all of my books evenly (maybe) between ya’. That means both will only have how much work to do on their own? :0 :^0

Tom’s Daily Comic Strips – Hold the woman up so folks can see her

In reply to Interesting quote

GREAT place to feel the pulse of America. SFW too. Takes less than a minute. Cracks me up. NBC Today. Yes. Switch on all 5. You’ll love everyone for doing it.

Michael Bolton

In reply to Interesting quote

I don’t care if anyone else givvadang. I likes him. Music makes me think.

Box? What box?

In reply to Interesting quote

Lines. What lines? I musta missed that part of my own test 🙁

What does ol’ Isaac (other one) think about thinking?

There are some mind-blowing peaceful

In reply to Interesting quote

uses for Googles creations aren’t there? Capital W ow! Just thinking about it makes my head spin

It met all of the tests

In reply to Interesting quote

I know.

Thanks

What does this image look like to the eyes of a child?

In reply to Interesting quote

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s169/sharewhat/MyDesktop.jpg

Who said, “many mansions?” What does/could it mean to you?

What’s in between the mansions?

What have physicists been looking for for a long time?

It was right there in front of us all the time. We were just too distracted with other nonsense to even think about it ’til now huh?

:^0 :^0 :^0

Let’s let the kids answer this one ‘k? 🙂

Free to all y’all from RockSolid.

Peace. It’s only over when you say it’s over.

WOOHOO!!!!!

I’m still alive and kickin’…

In reply to Interesting quote

…in case anyone was wonderin’. :0

The short version explaining my absence? Life is GREAT. It’s the daily routine that can be a PITA.

The long version is only available in person, as some of my old LEO and highly placed military friends have discovered.
Cryptic huh?

Deal with it.

Yes I edited.

Seriously…
Peace. 😉

:^0

Good, I have a question:

In reply to I’m still alive and kickin’…

What is ‘LEO’? I thought I knew it, guessing from context in one of your messages, but if I did I forget. Please enlighten me. Is it anything more than an attempt to keep us guessing?

:^0

PS Is it too much to ask to kick harder?

LEO=Law Enforcement Officer

In reply to Good, I have a question:

I’m kicking as hard as I can and no it’s no trouble. I’ve been kickin’ the hell out of preconceived notions amongst some top of the line 2% types all of this past week.

I’m literally talking about the kind of people who invented the first Cyclotron from a few raw ideas. I have several appointments scheduled to do more of the sameo sameo.

I know a LOT of people. I guess I forgot to mention that in my profile. 🙂

I like the first picture link the most :)

In reply to Interesting quote

http://rense.com/1.imagesH/premiere_dees.jpg

http://rense.com/1.imagesH/dont.jpg

http://rense.com/1.imagesH/jetfueldees.jpg

Now… let’s get to work. There are puhlenty of people that need a helping hand-up not a hand-out. I’ve been extremely busy doing just that with both of my hands.

Peace on you. :0 🙂

Thanks again to both Apotheon and Absolutely.

Me too. The last one is truly sickening.

In reply to I like the first picture link the most :)

None of those three should ever laugh again. But they do, [b]especially[/b] when talking about terrorism. WTH?

About the helping hand-up: OK, OK, I hear ya.

Peace on you also, even though you are a nuisance.

Nuisance?

In reply to Me too. The last one is truly sickening.

Me?

Yes.

In reply to Nuisance?

You present good ideas, which go against the grain. You maybe right, but that doesn’t mean I enjoy your statements.

Oh…

In reply to Yes.

…it’s my STATEMENTS and not ME that create the nuisance.

It’s almost like I knew that. 😉

I must go now, “America’s Got Talent”, is on the boob-tube and my hardworking neighbor is mowing his yard so loudly that I really have to concentrate. 🙁

Since I’m being a nuisance to some here’s some more entertainment

In reply to Interesting quote

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/06/11/vets.suicide/index.html

Oh wait… I think my sole detractor :^0 was speaking like a true rogue warrior, patriotic-type man. 😐

Domo arigato, Dr. Roboto.

I AM a nuisance. Someone elses opinion at the link.

In reply to Interesting quote

http://pittershawnpalmer.com/1984/?p=47

“Free your mind: what you see is up to you?”

I don’t think so.

In reply to Interesting quote

There IS a law requiring most employers to withhold taxes, however, which is nearly as effective 🙂

But, is that regulation itself legal?

In reply to I don’t think so.

The Constitution …

Well, there’s some interesting history about the ‘ratification’ of the Amendment that ‘allows’ direct income tax. Even if that Amendment was ratified properly, the same reasons that direct taxes were abhorrent to the Founders form a strong argument to repeal that Amendment now.

As well,

In reply to But, is that regulation itself legal?

“allowing” its collection may not mean the same thing as “mandating” its payment. Perhaps they’re “allowed” to pass the hat “requesting” contributions.

I’m not going to test that just now, however 🙂

Your post didn’t show up in my TR discussion notifications

In reply to As well,

I hate when that happens.

Good to see you back again Tony

In reply to I don’t think so.

Is anyone doing any hiring out your way?
Just kidding-too far to commute.

I’m going to add you to “My Contacts” in case I start straying outside of this discussion again at TR.

I had a problem with a former employer, formerly the largest mold-making facility in North America, when they went to “cafeteria style” benefits. That was quite some time ago. Even then I felt that people should investigate and resolve the real issues behind rising insurance costs. My vocal protests fell on deaf ears. The thinking seemed to be that since I was one of three employees who were paid the most per hour I could afford it better than anyone else and I should just shut-up.

That mold-shop is NOTHING like it used to be now.
It’s pathetic.
Some of those people have had to take a second job because they over-extended themselves and counted on their overtime always being there. Bad idea.

Of course, they generally look down on me for having had to file personal bankruptcy. I think it’s funny that most of those that do that are the same people who don’t believe that their spouses would ever cheat on them.

Video at 11:00.

Resolving issues.

In reply to Good to see you back again Tony

[i]resolve the real issues behind rising insurance costs.[/i]

That’s easy. Ever increasing regulation requiring ever increasing levels of bureaucracy costs ever increasing amounts of money to be paid to comply with. That cost (as do all of them) gets passed along to the consumer.

Get the government out of our lives except for infrastructure maintenance, and stop penalizing people for being successful, and most of this country’s problems would be gone within a few months.

I especially have to save your last paragraph Tony.

In reply to Resolving issues.

Outstanding.

I’m calling it, almost, a three way tie for “first” place as if anyone cares.

Sidenote: My neighbor asked me to mow part of his lawn after his mower broke. He also said that he hates mowing. Weird neighbor. “Why mow it then,” I thought as I was mowing it down to the level, where it’s almost dead, as he does.

Another sidenote: Ever heard about the bee problems? Lack of bees I mean. My yard has honeybees on the clover flowers. They like it here too.

I also haven’t been stung, by anything outside, for years.

I won’t whine about my allergic response to certain stings. I’d rather have bees than have to mow two to three times a week. I’m outdoors a lot. Look for me on Google Earth. :0 🙂

I don’t like it short either

In reply to I especially have to save your last paragraph Tony.

That actually makes it easier for unwanted plants to infiltrate, and bare spots to form. I let it grow to 6 and mow it to 4.

That’s basically what I do too

In reply to I don’t like it short either

Give my lawn a flat-top occasionally.

You find some weird stuff when you do that. My son-in-law discovered a rabbits nest/den while mowing last year. I’ve held three baby rabbits all at the same time in the palm of my right hand. His sister took them and raised them ’til she let them back out into the “wild”.

Pheasants are returning. I expect to see one in my yard any day now, they’re so close.

We’ve had Crows in the rear of my neighbors yard just today. (His yard is deeper than mine.) Crows used to be common-place here then it went over to Ravens, then the Ravens disappeared. I haven’t seen one since I was a kid.

We have, “The Sibley Field Guide to Birds of Eastern North America” (strange for LA 🙂 )

I spent an hour picking out a “bird book” and I think it’s the best for us. Tons of illustrations. There are still two birds that have visited our feeders that we haven’t been able to identify via book or WWW.

I’ve seen extraordinary bird behavior that I haven’t read about anywhere either. I must be ignorant.

Speaking of nuisances – I hate this doods statements.

In reply to Interesting quote

http://rense.com/general76/cracks.htm

A lot of reading from another nuisance. Yay.

In reply to Interesting quote

http://www.policestateplanning.com/id19.htm

I know what I think about it.

Pertinent to the original topic?

What does anyone else think?

An easier read than the above link. I think it still belongs in

In reply to Interesting quote

this mostly one-sided discussion. (echo) (echo) (echo)

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/Careers/06/13/cb.burnout/index.html

Instead of the authors last paragraph I’d say take care of your family but… I guess work is much more important. :^0 :^0 :^0 😐 🙁

What cart before what horse?

I disagree with some of what this guy says in the link

In reply to Interesting quote

but it is food for thought, for me.

http://www.bestcyrano.org/THOMASPAINE/?p=84

I disagree with some of it, too.

In reply to I disagree with some of what this guy says in the link

[i]With all due respect, what is libertarianism if not an anarchic, passionately ahistorical form of laissez-faire capitalism? The cowboy, frontier capitalism still embraced by inordinate numbers of people in the US (especially the Southwest and Texas), Australia, Alaska, and other places where the vastness of the land confuses the superficial thinker into believing that vastness equals infinity?[/i]

It’s in the crowded cities that the [b]rights[/b] to be armed while not a drug dealer are most important to survival. But in the countryside, where the dangers of being unarmed are distant enough to allow some contemplation between shooting of coyotes, the ideas that defined this country are being refined and redefined.

As food for thought goes, pretty good eatin’.

That was …

In reply to I disagree with some of it, too.

http://www.bestcyrano.org/THOMASPAINE/?cat=3

Thanks for that link

In reply to That was …

I bookmarked it in my, “Surfing the Apocalypse”, folder.

Absolutely :0
The link may be time sensitive…

In reply to Interesting quote

http://hihi.elmer.org/images/ballardst.4.gif

What do you know about Ed and Elaine Brown?

http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070609/REPOSITORY/706090329

I’d call that proof positive that I’m a GEEK with a capital EEK!

In reply to Absolutely :0
The link may be time sensitive…

My favorite, by far, is ‘Expand’ from page 5.

#2: ‘BEHEAD THOSE WHO SAY ISLAM IS VIOLENT’

OMG!

Something like this? Easier to view all links if you don’t “View All Posts”

In reply to I’d call that proof positive that I’m a GEEK with a capital EEK!

It took awhile to sort through some of the 19K+ pix I have but I found it.

Since it’s Friday and time for a yuk (I need one) here are a few more mixed links and pix. Some are even funny.

http://hihi.elmer.org/images/peanuts.5.gif

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s169/sharewhat/FP0001423.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s169/sharewhat/FP0001326.jpg

Warning:This one hits hard. http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s169/sharewhat/FP0001191.jpg

How I feel sometimes.

I want one.

Interesting sidenote: The only picture I’d posted so far this month was my yet my photobucket account has 14000 hits already. PB shows hits everytime someone views an image as in viewing this discussion and replies. 😀

?

In reply to Interesting quote

Who do you think you’re calling “Watson”?

Got carried away.

In reply to ?

That’s no shlt Sherlock.

Why aren’t I happier than I am? Oh… that’s right, I started thinking.

In reply to Interesting quote

http://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/twenty061207.htm

Dammit!!!

http://rense.com/general76/tx.htm

Again… Dammit!!!

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/06/13/1852/

Scroll down to “Taking War To The Pumps” here: http://www.pacificfreepress.com/content/view/1314/81/

How much would my gasoline cost for my lawn mower if… :0

Excuse you.

In reply to Why aren’t I happier than I am? Oh… that’s right, I started thinking.

In the future, don’t fart at table, and don’t let me see another example of this ‘ignorance is bliss’ type of nonsense from you or I’ll never read ANOTHER WORD of yours!

Yessir

In reply to Excuse you.

Roger wilco. Over and out.

Damn.

In reply to Yessir

Not sure I know your lingo, but I think I was looking for just “over”.

🙁

My bad. I “should” probably just quit but I’m still pissed off

In reply to Damn.

I just received my AFTF DVD yesterday. Ordered 5/22. There must be a backlog or hitch in the giddy-up somewhere as its only s’posed to take 10 days.

All I need now is the 911WeKnow DVD set and I can finally explain everything I know to my wife and “kids”… and neighbors… and friends… and anyone without a deep bitbucket and broadband who’ll watch and listen.

I think the following lyrics by Gordon Lightfoot are appropriate.

Don Quixote

Through the woodland, through the valley
Comes a horseman wild and free
Tilting at the windmills passing
Who can the brave young horseman be
He is wild but he is mellow
He is strong but he is weak
He is cruel but he is gentle
He is wise but he is meek
Reaching for his saddlebag
He takes a battered book into his hand
Standing like a prophet bold
He shouts across the ocean to the shore
Till he can shout no more

I have come o’er moor and mountain
Like the hawk upon the wing
I was once a shining knight
Who was the guardian of a king
I have searched the whole world over
Looking for a place to sleep
I have seen the strong survive
And I have seen the lean grown weak

See the children of the earth
Who wake to find the table bare
See the gentry in the country
Riding off to take the air

Reaching for his saddlebag
He takes a rusty sword into his hand
Then striking up a knightly pose
He shouts across the ocean to the shore
Till he can shout no more

See the jailor with his key
Who locks away all trace of sin
See the judge upon the bench
Who tries the case as best he can
See the wise and wicked ones
Who feed upon lifes sacred fire
See the soldier with his gun
Who must be dead to be admired

See the man who tips the needle
See the man who buys and sells
See the man who puts the collar
On the ones who dare not tell
See the drunkard in the tavern
Stemming gold to make ends meet
See the youth in ghetto black
Condemned to life upon the street

Reaching for his saddlebag
He takes a tarnished cross into his hand
Then standing like a preacher now
He shouts across the ocean to the shore
Then in a blaze of tangled hooves
He gallops off across the dusty plain
In vain to search again
Where no one will hear

Through the woodland, through the valley
Comes a horseman wild and free
Tilting at the windmills passing
Who can the brave young horseman be
He is wild but he is mellow
He is strong but he is weak
He is cruel but he is gentle
He is wise but he is meek

Feeling maudling this morning. Sue me.

For my wife whom I love more than my own life: http://youtube.com/watch?v=xXL0NelQK-U

Synchronicity ? Word of the day

In reply to Interesting quote

Just another unknown mystery. Personal this time.

?It’s a poor sort of memory that only works backwards?.

This is off-topic, or is it?

We’ve had a golf-cart sitting next to the large barn for years now weathering with the elements. There was a large pile of wood that got stacked in front of it and I wanted the cart moved from there to the barn door concrete apron so I could repair whatever is wrong with it. Good idea but I didn’t have any way of moving it. My snatch-strap is NFG and I can’t find my ?come-along? either. I could find one of my friends to help but I wasn’t up to the point of asking for help yet.

I moved the wood-pile (twice-don’t ask) so that I could plant sunflowers for the birds where the wood-pile used to stand and in doing so I made a path for moving the golf-cart out too.

In sprucing up the place I noted, behind the barns, a 6-cyl. in-line Ford engine long-block and an old snowmobile that both needed to be hauled away too as I have no use for either. The engine block is half buried in the dirt but could be rebuilt if someone was inclined to do that, same goes for the snowmobile.

So, I was outside filling a planter box I’d made from an old picnic table and I was filling it with a mixture of half cow-manure and half topsoil. Always thinking, I decided to give my 30 year old houseplant ?Rapunzel? a much needed make-over when I was done poop scooping.

While trimming Rapunzel, my 75y.o. neighbor from a few houses down rode his lawn tractor over here, out behind the barns, parked it and walked right over to me. (Where’s my shotgun) :^0

It seems he wanted to get that old engine block and snowmobile after offering to move the golf-cart from beside the barn so he could take a good look at it and possibly buy it from us. I told him that the cart might not be for sale but he pulled it out with his John Deere 4×2 cart and helped me park it on the apron anyway. :0

He’ll come back and grab the long-block and snowmobile later as he has a party to go to today.

Someone explain all that circumstance to me would ya’?

Good luck.

I’m sure you, the reader, have had similar experiences. Some call it luck. Maybe it is and maybe it isn’t. You decide.

I could go on and on about it but what’s the point?

Re: 75y.o. neighbor- I’ve talked to him twice before today. The last time was 5 years ago. I talked to him at length today. He was a U.S. Army medic during the Korean Conflict. I’m proud to know him and have him for my neighbor.

Off-what?

In reply to Synchronicity ? Word of the day

[i]This is off-topic, or is it?[/i]

There is a topic?

[i]Someone explain all that circumstance to me would ya’?[/i]

You don’t really want it explained, do you? You’d rather file it with UFO’s & telepathy, right? OK, “I don’t understand it”.

[Actually, I do: there is nothing in that story [b]to[/b] understand. You’ve been alive several years. Simple probability, along with the amount of commonality built-in to human interests and the frequency of our interactions calls for a certain number of such serendipities in each lifetime. It’s nothing to write home about.]

Oh that’s right!

In reply to Off-what?

I’m the dood that believes in the possibility of UFO’s being from space and telepathy, like communication from a young Son to a Mother, might be possible realities too. I should be taken out and shot post haste so I stop making noise. Then everyone could sleep much better knowing that me and MY type of person are successfully dealt with so folks can get on with the American dream and the rape of the world to support it can continue, unhindered by the truth.

There’s an apathetic and ignorant topic and you know it too. You don’t fool me for a minute. I updated my avatar for you just ‘cuz I can.

In case you’re wondering, I made this:

From this:

Sure, it could use more frames to be smoother but it was close enough for me that I didn’t add anything more.

“…believes in the possibility of UFO’s being from outer space…”

In reply to Oh that’s right!

Uh, well, if it’s unidentified, in the sky and seemingly at high altitude, isn’t “space” as likely a point of origin as “Earth”, if not moreso? I mean, depending on the specific appearance of the UFO you mean, of course. If you’re speaking of a “UFO” that is a boy on a bike, it’s most likely a Hollywood visual effect. If, on the other hand, it’s just the first falling star you’ve ever seen, then most likely the “UFO” in question [b]is[/b] from outer space!

🙂

“I should be taken out and shot post haste so I stop making noise. Then everyone could sleep much better knowing that me and MY type of person are successfully dealt with so folks can get on with the American dream and the rape of the world to support it can continue, unhindered by the truth.”

You’re awfully sensitive, aren’t you? Especially considering your stated interest in “making people think”.

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=223233&messageID=2242766

“What’s the name of my picture?

Who else did something similar in the past and was successful??
I have zero expectations but I like my picture. For now anyways :^0
Everybody laugh g’head but keep thinking.”

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=223233&messageID=2238391

“I [i]know[/i] that you are capable of thinking for yourself.”

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=223233&messageID=2243061

“Keep thinking Sir
You’ll get it.”

Well, on second thought, you do post a wide variety of information and uncommon persepctives. Depending which ones you actually espouse, maybe you are the sort of person that some people would hastily quip about “having taken out and shot”. I hate such people, by the way, to the maximum degree allowed by law, and didn’t mean to provoke anything more than the thought that despite the seriousness of it all, none of the news you post “is the end of the world”. Perhaps that thought was too self-evident, and I shouldn’t have bothered suggesting it. Anyway, with or without your previous work experience as a sheriff, you don’t seem to me the type of person I’d set out to offend.

Best wishes, Ropes.

“just ‘cuz I can” — Thanks!

In reply to Oh that’s right!

“I never learned from a man who agreed with me.”
~Robert A. Heinlein

But I guess you knew that already.

“There’s an apathetic and ignorant topic and you know it too.”

There are innumerable ignorant and apathetic topics. Discussion of the attributes “ignorance” and “apathy” as primary topics are less interesting to me than discussion of specific topics, which tend to remedy ignorance, and thereby remedy apathy. Sue me.

I get the impression that at some point I ought to have requested permission to speak freely, and I mean that with only a dash of sarcasm. Honestly, you do seem to me like a general on the field that I’m an infantryman.

Best wishes, Ropes.

What do you think of this?

In reply to Oh that’s right!

http://www.qwoter.com/spam.php?symbol=CAON.OB

Gotten any interesting SPAM lately? I have.

Do you use a Canadian email address perchance?

Do you send from a Comcast IP address?

I’ve received 6 spam messages that made it past mail-filter.com.

In reply to What do you think of this?

Gmail correctly sorted them into the Spam folder where I deleted them forever. I’ve since set mail-filter.com for that particular email address to prevent any spam from hitting my Gmail account. I wouldn’t characterize any of the spam as interesting and I do blame myself for getting spam in the first place as I signed up to win a “free laptop” just to see how spammy things would be. Mail-filter.com stopped (guessing) 95% of the spam I knew I’d get. Between them and Gmail I’ve had a pretty easy time of it. No “free laptop” though. Bummer.

The chart/link you presented was slicker than… errr… pretty nice. They could color-code the bars to show country of origin and it’d be even slicker than… errr… even better. 😀

If you were an infantryman and I was in the field with you I’d likely find myself in the same fox-hole with you digging it just a bit larger and deeper, putting in a latrine, grenade trap and possibly a hot-tub.

“Lead from the front.” = words to live by and possibly die by too.

Who wants to live forever? Right?

That was a HELL of a compliment you lobbed at me. GREATLY appreciated. I put that in my mental notebook as one of the greatest compliments I’ve ever received. Now… If you please… Knock it off. I stated somewhere towards the beginning of this thread that we are all in this together. Perhaps I should’ve finished that statement by adding, “as equals” but there is a document we’re both familiar with that states the whole equal jazz pretty clearly. I’m glad to think of myself as your equal TYVM. That’s all I am really no matter what anyone thinks. I kind of like you too. Didn’t used to but now I’m not sure why/why not. :0

I don’t use a Canuck email/ISP nor do I use Comcastic. I have Direcway/Hughesnet 2-way satellite and have had it for years. I like it but it can be a bit pricey for the average Joe.

Sensitive? Me? Okay, I’m busted there. I’m the kind of dood that makes everyone wait while I help Granny out of the store and to her ride in the parking lot at K-mart. It can be a little embarrassing to some, occasionally, it seems but I mostly don’t give a rip. I can BE offended too easily too. I’m calling it a character defect of mine. My Mother as well as my wife both like me and that’s what matters.

This whole thread has been like being dragged thru a knothole backwards. I wish, (wish?) it would all just go away but that’s unlikely to happen. Wishes are like hopes are like prayers are like desires. They’re all the same, if you ask me. Know that I wish the best for you too. Feel free to PM me anytime about anything. I’ll likely talk at you again later on down the road… This one or another one.

Yeah, I know there is, and I resent it!

In reply to Oh that’s right!

“There’s an apathetic and ignorant topic and you know it too.”

Heh-heh, what else could I really say to that, “I don’t know what you’re talking about, and anyway, I don’t care” ?

You are one clever dood!

Tracy Chapman – The Rape Of The World

In reply to Off-what?

Mother of us all
Place of our birth
How can we stand aside
And watch the rape of the world

This the beginning of the end
This the most heinous of crimes
This the deadliest of sins
The greatest violation of all time

Mother of us all
Place of our birth
We all are witness
To the rape of the world

You’ve seen her stripped mined
You’ve heard of bombs exploded underground
You know the sun shines
Hotter than ever before

Mother of us all
Place of our birth
We all are witness
To the rape of the world

Some claim to have crowned her
A queen
With cities of concrete and steel
But there is no glory no honor
In what results
From the rape of the world

Mother of us all
Place of our birth
We all are witness
To the rape of the world

She has been clear-cut
She has been dumped on
She has been poisoned and beaten up
And we have been witness
To the rape of the world

Mother of us all
Place of our birth
How can we stand aside
And watch the rape of the world

If you look you’ll see it with your own eyes
If you listen you will hear her cries
If you care you will stand and testify
And stop the rape of the world
And stop the rape of the world

Stop the rape of the world
Mother of us all
Mother of us all
Mother of us all
Mother of us all…

BTW- Let’s go for the Trifecta

In reply to Off-what?

I also don’t believe that time always travels directly into the future at the rate of one second per second regardless of your relative speed and motion.

Shoot me.

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=223233&messageID=2245235

Dbl post- Hard to believe isn’t it?

In reply to Interesting quote

.

100 Professors – What’s up Doc?

In reply to Interesting quote

No way… I guess they don’t know what some other people here profess to know about airplanes, architecture, demolition, engineering, metallurgy, evidence etc.

(Dance a jig, spin around, stop and think about it, sit down and cry, become angry all over again)

:^0 🙂 😐 🙁 :_| X-(

http://www.wanttoknow.info/070618professorsquestion911

I went to High School with/dated Karen Kwiatkowski. Dating was her idea

In reply to Interesting quote

What exactly does she mean by “the official 9/11 story”?

In reply to I went to High School with/dated Karen Kwiatkowski. Dating was her idea

The key points here relate to what parts of the popular US understanding of what happened she thinks require questioning — and what specific reasons she has for thinking these things should be questioned.

I’ve read some of her writings, and have found what she had to say at least thoughtful and agreeable. She’s a strong supporter of Ron Paul for President in 2008, too, so she definitely can’t be all bad. I have yet to hear of someone with conspiracy theories about 9/11 that didn’t sound like paranoid fantasies, however. If she knows of something more compelling, I’d definitely like to hear/read about it.

I seem to recall that she’s a [b]retired[/b] Lt. Colonel, though, now basically working as a political pundit.

(edit: emphasis on “retired”)

This video does a better job of explaining 9/11 issues than I can

In reply to What exactly does she mean by “the official 9/11 story”?

It’s posted near the beginning of this thread and then again later on down the line. It’s over an hour long so grab a few cold ones, sit back and try not to throw your monitor out a window while watching it. Maybe it’s just me that gets to feeling that way. I believe the issues in the video are some of what she’s referring to besides a great deal of other issues re: the Pentagon, Pennsylvania etc.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003

I agree with you about Ron Paul, not to make an issue out of it here, but anyone who believes in less governmental interference in my life just can’t be all bad.

A real General’s take on the Pentagon, Rumsfeld and Abu Ghraib

In reply to Interesting quote

http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID=%7B624FD80A-BE0F-44A7-B610-A960E62B6803%7D&language=EN

Old news – I knew this a long time ago…

In reply to Interesting quote

…but I lost my link/data so of course no one here believed me when I posted a discussion about it. I don’t blame anyone.

Doesn’t change the fact that I knew it either.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB222/index.htm

Rumors

In reply to Interesting quote

More homework

In reply to Interesting quote

http://rense.com/general77/pnepersn.htm

Max maximum paranoia from the minimum fun.

In reply to Interesting quote

To paraphrase the words from a good song

Max maximum paranoia from the minimum fun.

There seems to be some feeling amongst us paranoid types that the Bush/Cheney administration is going to soon create an event similar to what occurred on 9/11/01.

It’s possible.

This entire discussion has really been about how deep the rabbit-hole is for YOU, not me. For ME the rabbit hole goes all of the way through. Nothing is what it appears to be on the surface. Nothing. So I’m uber-paranoid. That doesn’t mean that I’m uber-wrong. It could just mean that I know more and pay closer attention to the leads and leaks in our beloved governmental institutions. In other words, there may be good reasons to be paranoid.

I can’t explain everything I know. It’s impossible. The trick is to present some of what I know in a form that won’t look too incredible to be believed. That’s the crux of the problem here and has been since the original post. People are wont to shoot the messenger. Argue with the people that made the videos and those who created the other ?evidence? presented to you. I’m simply providing a somewhat coherent conveyance for the entire message. You still have to decide if you can prove everything wrong. Good luck.

Simply saying that you know more than 100 Doctors and Professors as well as the numerous highly credible people involved in the links here just isn’t going to cut the mustard. You must prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. You can’t.

Let’s go back to where I said that ?it’s possible? something is going to happen. That’s similar to my saying ?watch for the spin? as I did earlier. It’s not over yet my friends. The Bush/Cheney administration is still in full swing and their arrogance is seemingly even greater. I think that’s because that’s what poker players do when other people think you’re losing but you still hold cards you haven’t played yet. They’re waiting for someone to call their bluff so they can throw down their ace high royal straight flush. Just wait. They’ll go ?all in.?

I have a feeling that there’s still a plan for domestic terrorism but it’s going to be seriously flawed, worse than 9/11/01. What would you do if you were criminally insane and wanted to have the most impact on the American people. You’d ?attack? America on a day of significance. Our government seems to prime us for that. Will we make it past Independence day? I think so. I think ?something? will happen on a ?feel good? day if it happens. Hurt folks where they live, hurt them hard and create the most outrage that you can. Something that demands swift retaliation and maximum lock-down of information. Can’t you almost hear the words broadcast on every channel. ?My fellow Americans this nation has been struck a terrible blow by our enemies…?

I hope I’m wrong. I seriously hope I’m wrong.

We’ve become so conditioned to corruption among our leaders that it’s a sad joke. You know who sees it easiest. Kids. They don’t have the same preconceived notions about how things ?should? be. They can see that things are ?wrong? and wonder why their parents don’t see it. Why don’t parents see it? Preconceived notions developed over years. As parents we’re supposedly more educated so we often teach our kids to ignore what they see and learn. We often tell them, ?that’s just the way it is?.

One of the things I’ve instilled in my kids is to never trust the government. Ever. Be on alert to people that take your money and make the rules that determine how much of your money they’re able to take then watch what they do with the money.

Voted themselves a raise didn’t they? How hard have they worked to keep this a free nation and represent me and mine? Man, they sure do deserve a raise don’t they?

Do you trust your Boss.? Really? One hundred percent? :^0

The only people I trust 100% are my wife and daughter. I give my son-in-law the benefit of the doubt because I know him and I know my daughter who says that he’s trustworthy. Those three have never screwed me over. My son? I know him and wish that he would stand by his word. ‘Nuff said.

If you trust your work boss and bosses and the government 100% I can check to see if my therapist has any open appointments. He could use a good laugh but then again, he might find it really sad.

What am I rambling on about now? It’s not over boys and girls. It’s all far from being over and I think that it’s going to get worse before it gets better.

I have a couple of personal plans.

First: Pay-off the 12 ga. double-barreled, nickel-plated coach shotgun I just threw on layaway. Eight more payments and it’s mine. (I can do it in six week.)Very suitable for home defense. No. 4 buckshot won’t penetrate walls as well as a pistol bullet and possibly hurt my neighbors. It’s also much easier to use than my 8 round LAW 12 shotgun with magazine cut-off. I know how to use THAT but my wife could use something simple when the merde hits the ventilator. It’s quite a persuader. Just the sight of it would stop ME in my tracks.

My second goal is to get CCW; carry concealed weapons permits for all four of us in my ?family?. I’m going .45 caliber semi-auto. I’ve seen ballistic gel results and have read about unfortunate real-life events and I’m sticking with .45 caliber. I’m thinking my son-in law will too, Th women will go with something more petite no doubt, 9mm minimum..

<
Why CCW’s? Why not. When I was copping around I saw that the only people who feared me were the ones seeking to hurt me. No one needs to fear me unless they’re going to hurt me. Then they night have another think coming.

Better to have it and not need it than to need it an not have it. That’s the simple truth.

Oh shoot. I need more coffee. Cleaning up after a storm wore me out.Have you ever seen the average home. It’s a security nightmare. An electric chainsaw can make a 6 foot opening in a matter of a few minutes. Fairly quiet too. Run it off a cheap inverter installed in a normal vehicle. One minute of noise, drowned out by music and I’d be in. A wet newspaper placed over a window cut’s down on broken window noise, cut the power and a phone line and unless your security system includes UPS back up and cell phone that can’t be jammed you aren’t safe. You AREN’T safe. A simple good swift kick will bust the majority of wooden entry door. Home invasions anyone? Don’t be ignorant. Ignorance can kill you.

I’m tired. I’m going to post this for what little it could be worth.

Take care, be safe and above all… Think.

A little light reading for Independence Day.

In reply to Interesting quote

http://www.barefootsworld.net/usfraud.html

I’ll have to go back and follow the links on the above page just because I’m interested in alternate viewpoints. Over the course of time some alternative views and ideas have proven to be true.

How banks create money

In reply to Interesting quote

http://www.webofdebt.com/articles/dollar-deception.php

14 Characteristics of Fascism and an odd coincidence

In reply to Interesting quote

http://neworleans.indymedia.org/news/2007/07/10585.php

I think it’s odd.

Unfortunately . . .

In reply to 14 Characteristics of Fascism and an odd coincidence

That “Fourteen Defining Characteristics of Fascism” paper is a load of hooey. It’s more like “Fourteen Defining Characteristics of an Invocation of Godwin’s Law”.

Most of the characteristics described actually apply generally to totalitarianism — not specifically to fascism. Several of the points are redundant. Some are dependent upon specific, subjective ideological principles (perhaps most notably the “labor power” bit).

All things considered, the list just looks like someone’s attempt to find excuses to refer to the Bush administration as fascist in nature. While there’s a lot in common between the Bush administration and fascism, this list is a piss-poor job of making that connection.

I should kill the link

In reply to Unfortunately . . .

But I’m going to leave it so that your post makes sense. Thanks. I thought everybody went home. 🙂

no problemo

In reply to I should kill the link

I still monitor this thread somewhat, but it became a bit too scattered for me to really invest much time in it a while back. I unfortunately have to be pretty picky with where I spend my time these days, since I have so little of it to spend.

I’m home. :-)

In reply to I should kill the link

Where are you? ?:|

PS – How does Paradise compare with Hell?

.

Rep. Peter Defazio

In reply to Interesting quote

“Maybe the people who think there’s a conspiracy out there are right.”
http://www.newhouse.com/congressman-denied-access-to-post-attack-government-continuity-plans.html

“This video has been removed by the user. “

In reply to Interesting quote

It ain’t there no more!

They used to have it there for free viewing. (Updated)

In reply to “This video has been removed by the user. “

But duh… I guess that should be obvious.
You can go to the movies website here: http://www.freedomtofascism.com/ They don’t say why they pulled it and supposedly you can watch a small version there, I understand that it’s going into movie theatres on July 28th. Straight from DVD to the big screen. I don’t know of any other movie that has done that.

You can still see the full, lower quality version at the link below. Google supposedly yanked the movie makers 1Hr. 51Min. free video so these movies might not be up long either.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=america+freedom+to+fascism

Either of the 1Hr 49Min versions played for me. To get the entire story you need to watch the long versions, trailers don’t cut it for this movie or the 911WeKnow.com video.

I bought the AFTF Directors cut DVD for $10+S&H. I would’ve bought the 100 DVD’s for $100.00 and handed them out to my friends but I’d like a full tank of gas in my truck too. Don’t have one but I’d like it.

When I get enough wunnerful Federal Reserve notes I’m going to trade them for the 911WeKnow DVD too. I’m in the middle of buying, on layaway, a nickel-plated, 12ga. short barrel, double barrel “Coach” shotgun right now. A great, simple, home defense weapon

It’s not like anybody would attack us in our home without justification. Is it? Would someone/anyone do that? In real-life? They’ll regret it, even now.

I’ve got that whole “need something to eat everyday” thing going too. A man’s got to have his priorities in the right order. I’ve got mine sorted out. For me. 🙂

Do I sound like I’m making excuses for being alive and living? :^0

I’m a little gun-shy today. :0 😐

Nightmare on Main Street

In reply to Interesting quote

http://rense.com/general77/nightmre.htm

and

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/07/that-executive-order.html

Interesting reading

In reply to Interesting quote

http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd294.htm

Of course I’ll be discredited. Why is that? I’m just the messenger.

Because I’m a WATB

In reply to Interesting reading

I don’t wanna question my assumptions!

🙁

Dbl. post (nt)

In reply to Because I’m a WATB

.

You’re one of the last people I’d call a WATB

In reply to Because I’m a WATB

Feel free to call yourself anything that seems right. And you question assumptions all of the time.

Thanks. We haven’t met in meat space have we?

In reply to You’re one of the last people I’d call a WATB

😀

I do question a lot of assumptions, but I also whine before questioning the most comfortable ones. I just don’t post the whining.

My wife says…

In reply to Thanks. We haven’t met in meat space have we?

…that I whine a lot. I don’t see it that way. I look at it as constructive criticism but what do I know? She’s usually right.

Since this thread began, if we’ve ever met in meat space I think I’d have bought you a bottled water. (First one’s on me.) Before then, who knows? Maybe we have a mutual flip-off between us. 😉 😀

I’ll not discredit you

In reply to Interesting reading

But may have better details.

The article is wrong.

Read it, know the detail of the wreckage. Article is wrong.

Looking at both sides and for me

In reply to I’ll not discredit you

it all falls into the category of I don’t know for sure. Just like almost everything in this whole discussion I have more questions than answers. That’s not likely to change I think. I find that I can’t discredit you nor would I. For me it’s all in the category of the great unknown. Nobody seems to consult me on International incidents and I have a huge distrust of my government telling me the unvarnished truth about damn near anything. If they said it was raining here I’d go to my window and check it.

Still working on what I believe and what I assume. Trying to narrow those assumptions just leads to more of a tangled web. Sorting it out for myself isn’t too simple as I like to check many sources in hoping to winnow out the the lies to get to the real nitty gritty of the truth as I see it. Tough job.

Good stuff here, and a little intelligence

In reply to Interesting quote

“Is there a law requiring American workers to pay taxes? If so, can you produce it in writing?”

OnTheRopes

“No, there isn’t a law. There never has been. There have been many groups in the past who have successfully protested paying taxes on the basis of the lack of law and failure on the part of government to prove the constitutionality of income tax.”

TiggerTwo

The United States Constitution:

“Section 7 – Revenue Bills, Legislative Process, Presidential Veto

“All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.”

“Section 8 – Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

[This phrase is cited to dispute progressive income tax, but not taxation itself. If you look closely, though, it does not refer to taxes per se.]

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;”

Also, as quoted by DanLM:

“Amendment 16 – Status of Income Tax Clarified. Ratified 2/3/1913. Note History

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.”

Taxes and taxation have never been the source of Constitutional dispute. Progressive income tax has been disputed.

So, here’s a fresh perspective for you:

“How Long Do We Have?

About the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior:

“A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.”

“The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

1. From bondage to spiritual faith;

2. From spiritual faith to great courage;

3. From courage to liberty;

4. From liberty to abundance;

5. From abundance to complacency;

6. From complacency to apathy;

7. From apathy to dependence;

8. From dependence back into bondage ..”

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St. Paul,
Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the 2000
Presidential election:

Population of counties won by: Gore: 127 million; Bush: 143 million;

Square miles of land won by: Gore: 580,000; Bush: 2,427,000

States won by: Gore: 19 Bush: 29

Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Gore: 13.2 Bush: 2.1″

Professor Olson adds: “In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the tax-paying citizens of this great country. Gore’s territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off government welfare…”

Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the “complacency and apathy” phase of Professor Tyler’s definition of democracy, with some 40 percent of the nation’s population already having reached the “governmental dependency” phase.”

Again:

“A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury”

Please do not read this as an endorsement of George W. Bush. That man needs to be impeached. And, of course, the government is largely to blame for our economic ills.

The bulk of our economic difficulty at the level of the federal government is centered on entitlements (which is also the prime reason GM, Ford and Chrysler struggle to compete with manufacturers who are NOT burdened by huge entitlement issues), entitlements which are supported by all workers (that’s us) [about two thirds of the Federal budget is entitlements and welfare, including Medicare].

And, of course, there is the Federal Reserve:

Follow this to Congressman Ron Paul’s web site:

http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2007/cr021507.htm

As long as we vote ourselves money, and permit the U S government to manipulate the economy, the eventuality of our situation is a foregone conclusion:

“8. From dependence back into bondage ..”

Cheers!

interesting

In reply to Good stuff here, and a little intelligence

That was by far the most lucid, well-reasoned post I’ve ever seen you make.

Thank you. RE: Lucid

In reply to interesting

Lucid:

1 a: suffused with light : luminous b: translucent

2: having full use of one’s faculties : sane

3: clear to the understanding : intelligible

Your use of the word obviously tends toward the third definition above.

I find it “illuminating” that the authors of the Latin Vulgate chose the first definition to describe the Devil when they coined the word “Lucifer”. An odd parallel, do you not think?

I also find it interesting that the U S Constitution is respected by many as a religious artifact, one which is greater than all others. It is infallible, in the minds of the devotees. Even though it was the product of a group of materialist Deists [as pointed out to me in the prior discussion]. Humans are herein perceived as the authors of perfection. That, of course, is silly. Humans are flawed and broken.

Even the religious right point to the constitution (I refer you again to Ron Paul) as though it was / is a fundamental truth.

The U S Constitution is a business plan. A mission statement. The truth of it is limited. It is not absolute, nor is it divine. Those who protect Constitutional values need to stop referring to the Constitution itself, and instead turn to the basic fundamental values it attempted to represent.

Why must we assert that an action is “unconstitutional” in order to consider it wrong? Can we not simply point to the wrong contained in the action and call it “bad”? Is there truly a need to have “right” and “wrong” defined by a human document? I think not.

I am convinced that many who have the strongest convictions of right and wrong live lives that are mirrors of some philosophy or standard that has been presented to them. They do not, can not or will not drill down to the fundamental source of their convictions. I am convinced that many of these folk would be surprised indeed upon discovering the ultimate fundament of their convictions if they did choose to drill down. The Constitution is a marvelous document, created by a group with legitimate values and wondrous intentions. But, it is flawed (see my prior comment about the three fifths rule). It is not divine. To amend it is not sacrilege. To circumvent it is illegal, and probably not in the best interests of our nation. But, our government is what it is, and circumvent and amend is part of the process.

Get used to it.

The great failure of our society lies in our refusal to truly define right and wrong. We INSIST on equal rights for gays, while crucifying members of congress for homosexual tendencies. It’s not O K to discriminate against gays, but government leaders must not solicit sex in a public rest room.

Juliet and Romeo were thirteen and fourteen, respectively, and their romance is one of the most celebrated in history. Both were felons by current American legal standards. The fact that they were fictitious lovers in no way limits their guilt. Were they real, would the story be less palatable?

The Virgin Mary was the mother of a bastard, and would be considered today no more than another unwed pregnant teen.

These are sex violations. Very bad. Yet, financial predators are OK. As long as they don’t break the rules. Bill Gates is a saint for sharing the vast accumulation of wealth he accrued by illegal and unscrupulous means with the less fortunate in the world.
Horrendous violence is O K as long as the guy running the show is the President of the United States of America. Kill all the people you want, they’ll make more of them. Dump all the depleted uranium you can pack into the barrels of your guns, that’s O K too. Lie to the courts about your relations with a woman other than your wife. That’s O K too. Run a stop sign while you’re drunk and kill a motorcyclist, and we’ll forgive you and restore you to the bar in a mere two years flat (or, was it three?). It’s O K.

Rape, pillage, and kill. That’s O K. But, don’t do it with a person of the same gender or with one below the legal age of majority (the rape part is what I’m referring to. The pillage and kill are not related to age or gender. They are related to status).

The age of nobility has returned in full force. Those with the gold make the rules. All of the rest of us are victims. Those of you who believe that the U S Constitution EVER protected the little guy, the common man on the street, in any meaningful way, are delusional.

Please stop referring to the Constitution as the source of right and wrong. You won’t find it there.

I’ve learned a lot from posting this discussion

In reply to Good stuff here, and a little intelligence

You may find this link to a blog to be interesting reading.
http://sjlendman.blogspot.com/2007/08/labor-day-hypocrisy.html

Sorry that I didn’t get back here sooner. I’m just a little too worn out from attacks made on me and my character here at TR and I’m finding the forums a little pointless when all people seem to want to do is rip on each other. My current avatar:

World events effect all of us and it appears to me from reading what’s posted in other discussions at TR that I don’t agree with very many people about very many things. That’s not to say that anyone is at fault including myself it’s just that I’ve had so much time on my hands that I have a good idea of what I know to be true and what I think is false. It’s hard to nail down the truth and I don’t/won’t accept anyone else’s version of it just because they are a TR friend or former friend as the case may or may not be. If that makes sense.

I don’t shove my ideas of what is right or wrong I merely ask that people read what is posted with an open mind to the degree that they are able. Forums in general are a rough way to communicate complete ideas as the only thing people see is the printed word. That’s why I like to use emoticons, pictures and video when I can find it. Others more talented than I have put a lot of time and effort into making what I believe to be are valid points not to be dismissed because I’m too smug and think that I know better. I’m smart enough to know that I don’t have all of the answers. No one person does even though I’ve seen some claims…

Let the juvenile attacks begin. There is nothing in this post directed at any one person nor is anything meant to be. We’re all in this thing together and we can’t get along, too busy thinking of ourselves and not each other. That’s fine if that’s how it’s going to be. That doesn’t bode well, I think, for the future of the USA and the future of all free nations. I just ask people to think. That’s it. Just think. Like I’ve said earlier, Ive reached my own conclusions and since this discussion began I’ve reached a few more. I’m not smiling. Just so you know, I’m also thinking that this will likely be my last post to this discussion as I’ve already threatened to do somewhere up above. I’m simply hoping to be moving on with other, more productive or at least less troublesome things. I’ve got a ton of things to do besides being concerned about TR. Thank God.

One more link

In reply to Interesting quote

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/9723

I wish . . .

In reply to One more link

I wish I could say there was something surprising about this.

I know exactly what you mean. Edited and updated

In reply to I wish . . .

I think that the erosion of our freedoms continues unabated.

I wish I could relocate it but last night I read a link about an upcoming martial law exercise where the government and military are going to practice, this year, from October 15th thru the 20th. I’m not sure what civilian level the exercise is going to reach down to, the article didn’t say. It’s all part of Operation Enduring Freedom or something similar no doubt.

I feel safer from terrorists already don’t you?

Edited to add the link:
http://www.blacklistednews.com/view.asp?ID=4185

Before anyone points it out to me I am well aware of the need for wargaming I’m just used to seeing wargames and operations against the enemies of the United States and not the citizens.

Am I paranoid? Hell yes!

As always, everyone else is free to think whatever they’d like.

So it’s Operation Vigilant Shield 08. Shielding who from what I wonder. Why the 08? What else is coming?

Another, unrelated, thought. How come we were able to survive and thrive under the threat of thousands of Soviet nuclear weapons aimed at us but now we’re supposedly afraid of Iran which doesn’t even have a nuclear arsenal?

Also, whatever happened to diplomacy?

That should put to rest any delusions that “Democrat” = democracy

In reply to One more link

The misnomers “Democrat” & “Republican” no longer have anything to say about representation of individuals in government. Both are enemies of the people.

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/9723

[i]Some of this hassling has made headlines, such as when Senator Edward Kennedy was detained five times in East Coast airports in March, 2004, suggesting no person, however prominent, is safe from Bush nastiness. Rep. John Lewis of Georgia has also been mistreated. And it can be nasty. Robert Johnson, an American citizen, described the “humiliation factor” he endured:

“I had to take off my pants. I had to take off my sneakers, then I had to take off my socks. I was treated like a criminal,” Wolf quotes him as saying. And it gets worse than that. Nicolas Maduro, Venezuela’s foreign minister, said he was detained at Kennedy airport by officers who “threatened and shoved” him. And that was mild. Maher Arar, a Canadian software consultant was detained at Kennedy and “rendered” to Syria where he was imprisoned for more than a year by goons that beat him with a heavy metal cable.[/i]

Senator Kennedy hasn’t demanded an inquiry, hearing, or press conference that I know about. If something like that happened to me while I had the power of a Senator …

I hear you

In reply to That should put to rest any delusions that “Democrat” = democracy

Reading about the treatment other people receive makes me not want to fly anymore. If they treat a Senator and a Chaplain like that how would they treat a little peon like me?
I talked my wife out of going back to Vegas for our next vacation and instead we have tentative plans for going to the Mall Of America in Minnesota. I can drive there. I have enough road miles under my belt that personally I’d just as soon stay home and make a few day trips but I’ve been over-ruled. :^0

I wonder if you can be put on a no-fly list

In reply to That should put to rest any delusions that “Democrat” = democracy

because some steward or stewardess doesn’t like how you dress.

http://rense.com/general78/tas.htm

That can definitely happen

In reply to I wonder if you can be put on a no-fly list

http://www.kylaebbert.net/

Already has, in fact. The plane belongs to the airline, not the passengers. As long as their dress code is known in advance and enforced fairly, they probably won’t lose business because of this.

Saw her on the Today show. I’ve thought that it was interesting

In reply to That can definitely happen

that a cabin steward thought her outfit was too revealing. I don’t think she got put on a permanent no-fly list though. The airline would lose a revenue where she’s concerned because I heard her say that she’d made 100 trips with no problems.

not much

In reply to Saw her on the Today show. I’ve thought that it was interesting

They’d lose some revenue, but even if she’s gone on 100 trips and travels even more in the future, she’s just one of millions of bugs to a corporation — until she gets in the news!

Follow-up. Misguided employees can decide if you fly.

In reply to That can definitely happen

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TRAVEL/10/05/airlines.dress.debate.ap/index.html

easy way to get free tickets

In reply to Follow-up. Misguided employees can decide if you fly.

[i]Southwest spokesman Chris Mainz said Friday the employee made a mistake because the Dallas-based airline does not have a dress code.

The airline apologized this summer after a college student wearing a denim miniskirt and a sweater over a tank top was told to change her outfit or get off a flight departing from San Diego.

Kyla Ebbert, who was 23, told the story on “The Dr. Phil Show.” She was read a printed apology from Southwest Chief Executive Gary Kelly on the show.

Ebbert was allowed to fly after agreeing to alter her outfit. The airline offered Ebbert free tickets and tried to make light of the mix-up in humorous advertising.

…

Southwest, like other airlines, has language in its contract of carriage that states it reserves the right to deny service to customers whose clothing is “lewd, obscene or patently offensive.”

Airline officials have discussed giving employees more specific examples of what is considered lewd or offensive, Mainz said.[/i]

Until the airline does provide specific definitions of its clothing requirements, they should expect their employees to enforce what they think the dress code is, and to get it wrong. I think I’ll go get kicked off a Soutwest Airlines flight, and get some free tickets for it. Now, where can I find a distasteful T-shirt nowadays?

my experience . . .

In reply to easy way to get free tickets

Back in ’95 when I was flying a commercial airline from the States to Germany because I was on my way to my new (Army) duty station in Italy, I made the flight in a black t-shirt with big white block letters on it. They spelled out the words “F*CK EVERYTHING”. The only people who actually showed me any particular attention with that shirt was a group of elderly ladies who were waiting in line behind me at the counter to get boarding passes. I overheard them talking about the shirt — words something like “Did you see his shirt?” were in there somewhere, and I knew they were talking about me.

After a few moments I turned around and looked at them. They fell silent and looked at me. I smiled, and said “It’s a philosophical statement.” They smiled for a moment, then giggled a little. I think they decided I was a nice person.

The stews (sorry, “flight attendants” — I remember when they were “stewards” and “stewardesses”) didn’t give it a second look. Nobody seemed to care.

These days, I wouldn’t wear that shirt on an international flight for fear I’d end up getting a body-cavity search in a holding room three days after I was supposed to have arrived in Europe. Well, I wouldn’t unless I had some time to kill and wanted to get in the news (and wasn’t in the military — which I’m not, now). While these policies have been around on paper for decades, and were no more clearly defined for the employees at the time, I don’t think there was the same kind of problem then that there is now.

The current political climate is such that the uber-conservative types are coming out of the woodwork and feel like they’re invincible, I think. People don’t feel like they have to keep their ultra-conservative intolerances secret any longer.

I hadn’t given that much thought.

In reply to easy way to get free tickets

I hadn’t thought of this episode in terms of the present political climate, but now that I have, I’m glad I did.

I’m not sure that this case, even in combination with the recent case of the MIT student whose electronic art was taken for a hoax bomb, signals advancing arch-conservatism in the public sphere. My concern on that subject is much more about legislation and covert surveillance of citizens’ personal lives than the enforcement of [u]public[/u] decency laws and regulations. If either of those two ladies use their fifteen minutes to highlight that problem, they’ll have my gratitude. I doubt it.

From Fark.com-One less t-shirt you can buy here

In reply to easy way to get free tickets

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14281375/detail.html

That t-shirt is awesome.

In reply to easy way to get free tickets

I want one.

Screenshots of a .pdf file that might be of interest

In reply to Interesting quote

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa12/sharewhat2/ScreenShot409.jpg
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa12/sharewhat2/ScreenShot410.jpg

Ut-oh.

In reply to Screenshots of a .pdf file that might be of interest

I make “numerous” references to the US Constitution. I guess I’m a terrorist.

Hell, that bit about defending the Constitution could make Ron Paul a terrorist, if taken as written. In fact, about half the bullet-points on that brochure read like they’re tailor-made to criminalize the activities of every Libertarian Party candidate for President over the last three decades at least.

Don’t shoot, I have license plates!

In reply to Ut-oh.

Hilary Clinton, Mitt Romney, Barack Obama, John McCain, and all the judges on the Supreme Court have hopefully made “numerous references to the US Constitution”. I generally find OTR’s messages thought-provoking, but I just don’t see what the point of this one was supposed to be.

The point was to inform that broad strokes

In reply to Don’t shoot, I have license plates!

are being used to paint the terrorism picture and possibly justify the surveillance and other measures being used for our own “security”. When you/they see terrorists everywhere hasn’t terrorism “won”?

I don’t think that the Constitution is just a godd**ned piece of paper so I guess that should put me on someones shlt list too. After all, I am a lone individual although I am an extremely law abiding citizen.

There are laws I mostly ignore . . .

In reply to The point was to inform that broad strokes

. . . but I hardly think that ignoring arbitrary numbers painted on signs by the side of the road that may, in fact, [b]hinder[/b] safe driving practice if slavishly observed as rules makes me a “terrorist” in any sense of the word that can be justified in a non-circular manner.

So . . . yeah, like you I’m (mostly — where it counts) a law-abiding citizen. I even comply with certain laws with which I disagree (software patents come to mind) because defying them outright wouldn’t serve any useful purpose. Then, of course, there’s all the laws that are [b]not[/b] disagreeable, which include things like “don’t blow up buildings you don’t own, and don’t even blow up your own when there are people in them”, and which I’d “obey” even if they weren’t laws.

I’d still probably be labeled a suspicious character worthy of investigation as a terrorist based on that damned pamphlet. There are some serious wankers in government.

edit: It occurs to me that my Statue of Liberty user icon might be another excuse to investigate me, to judge by the mindset of that trifold brochure. After all, it’s a symbol of liberty — not of patriotism, like the flag. It was also made by the French, and we all know how evil they are by current US governmental standards.

I’ve made small talk with a lot of Deputies and City Police Officers

In reply to There are laws I mostly ignore . . .

Many of the best of them would be subject to scrutiny under various headings of that pamphlet.

Besides my Uncle, (Secret Service) the only Feds, I’ve ever spent any time with were… “out there” for lack of a better phrase. That’s certainly not to say that all of them are but it just seems that the ones I’ve met didn’t quite really live in the same Universe I do. Too used to following orders without question. I couldn’t have ever been a Fed even though I was a Deputy Sheriff. Different mindset.

From what I’ve read and students I’ve talked with I see that Federal agents from almost every alphabet agency have to undergo grueling daily physical training (including weekends) and get excellent grades in the various lengthy training programs. They’re sharp and fit! Piss ’em off at your own peril.

I also believe that there have to be some who have at least a couple of the broad characteristics described in that pamphlet.

It’s a sad day when support of the Constitution and the principals of individual liberty can leave anyone open to further scrutiny. Be patriotic just don’t be too patriotic.

I guess I have an archaic definition of patriotism and freedom.

Like you I may find myself occasionally over the speed limit but I’m very seldom alone in doing it. I remember being 12 mph over in a big truck once and having 3 State Troopers pass me in a short period. I was trying to keep up with the flow of morning rush-hour traffic along with every other big truck on the road. The troopers ignored us as they’re trained to know what a back-up even a simple traffic stop creates.

When it comes to obeying the rest of the laws we live with I do it without any problems. I have no problem with allowing “the law” to take care of any issues I may have. For the most part, locally, I think the cops know what they’re doing. There’s just one I know that I don’t trust. Long story.

About the only times I’ve called 911 or the cop-shop in recent memory were to report what I thought were drunk drivers and hard-core drug deals/dealers. Don’t set-up a Meth-lab on my road and you’ll probably never know who I am because I normally keep to myself. (One of my neighbors, two houses down set-up a Meth-lab in a camping trailer. They’re awaiting trial. Nice neighborhood eh?)

I even pay my taxes every year for the simple reason of keeping the IRS off of my back. The things that they can do makes them a scary bunch. I don’t have much and I’m just trying hard to keep it.

So far, (I think) I haven’t taken a strong stance on anything in this discussion other than not accepting what you’re told without further personal investigation. I’m not going to re-read the entire thing. I will say that I think that individuals must continue to stand for liberty and the Constitution.

I know that locally there are more for than against at least in the small circles I travel in. There are the odd-balls that will struggle to be the first to line up to receive their ID chip implants and National ID card. (Show me your papers comrade.)

How well I remember making small talk at the Secretary of States office. Out of the crowd that was listening one older male voice spoke out, “That’s dangerous talk boy”. (I still have to laugh.)He should talk to the deli-manager at my favorite grocery store. She’d tell him all about dangerous. She’s one of my favorite people. She always has a spark burning. I’d actually pay to see him talk to her.

I simply encourage people to know the issues and get out and vote. If they don’t know “who” to vote for I encourage them to look at Dr. Ron Paul and Mike Gravel’s opinions and platforms. Much of the time people haven’t heard of either candidate. Why is that?

Are things a lot worse than we thought?

In reply to Interesting quote

Where’s the script?

In reply to Are things a lot worse than we thought?

The enunciation and/or recording was so bad that I’ve little clue as to what he was saying most of the time.

Bummer

In reply to Where’s the script?

I don’t have a transcript and I’m just too damm lazy to look one up.

Essentially ol’ Ralph Nader was saying that a Congressman from Massachusetts said that Congress won’t begin impeachment proceedings against President Bush and clan because our beloved President would invade Iran and enact martial law suspending the 2008 election indefinitely. Now I don’t see how an invasion and martial law go hand in hand but then I’m not the one who said it.

Well, presumably, one could construct a scenario in which Iran, …

In reply to Bummer

which does in fact have a highly capable wordwide network of covert operatives, along with liasons with many others who are less than fond of the US, was “discovered” to be in the final stages of implementing a series of attacks within the US, thus prompting both our launching pre-emptive attacks against Iran and the simultaneous imposition of martial law here.

However, if one did in fact expect such to happen, and wished to avoid such, the logical course of action would be to press hard for impeachment [i]before[/i] the President could so act; i.e., impeachment would serve deterent against the feared actions.

So, it’s not clear to me as what said Congressman was allegedly saying. That Congress would not act for fear of triggering such Presidental actions; or, so as to guarantee such?

Regarding taxes

In reply to Interesting quote

Well, I missed the video but that was a good one about asking us to show proof in writing that American workers are required by law to pay taxes. Presidents make up rules as they go. The Constitution is a perfect example of that. It gets changed as often as a baby’s diaper it’s seems like.

Taxes are levied so our politicians can live off the fat of the land. They tax everything under the sun, including our brains. We are cash cows. You know why a lot of states require us to wear a seatbelt when driving? If we get into an accident and die we can’t pay any more taxes.

Not quite sure what your point is.

In reply to Regarding taxes

“Proof in writing” of [b]precisely[/b] what?

Constitution “changes?” Do you refer to Amendments? If not, what, then? If so, are you saying that there should be no Amendments, even though the Constitution itself provides for such?

Re: Not quite sure what your point is.

In reply to Not quite sure what your point is.

Actually, I’m a bit confused. It is said that the founding fathers were for freedom. But, if you look at the parts where they wrote the Constitution, it opens people who don’t have a lot of money up for all kinds of tyranny. It allows Presidents to change things on whims, it gives landowners free reign of the private lives of people on their land. It never said you couldn’t own slaves, and it never said women could vote. If the founders really did make it so amendments could be messed around with, we are all in trouble, as President Bush has proven with the 1st and 4th amendment.

Re. “It allows Presidents to change things on whims”

In reply to Re: Not quite sure what your point is.

To the contrary, our Founders sought, as best they could, to guard against such, both by establishing the 3 separate branches of the Federal government, and by enumerating the powers allowed to each.

That certain Presidents have found ways to subvert such, and that Congress has frequently either overtly supported such, or at least implicitly done so by turning a blind eye to abuses of power, is not the fault of either the Founders or the US Constitution, but of those charged with faithfully discharging the duties of their offices.

Very well said! (nt)

In reply to Re. “It allows Presidents to change things on whims”

.

You mean I actually got something right?

In reply to Very well said! (nt)

This calls for a shot of Pinch.

You read fast

In reply to Regarding taxes

I think it would take me a matter of a few hours to re-read this entire thing and view all of the video content and links and I was there when it happened.

I know it’s a pain reading such a long discussion but I encourage you to do so. (Using “Print/View all posts” makes it easier.)I read JD’s entire divorce thread and I think that went to over 1000 posts. I had to read the whole thing just so I know what everybody is talking about when they mention it. It helped that I was on prescribed Oxycontin at the time. (The Dr.s put 8 screws in my wrist)

It’s not likely that anybody is talking about this discussion but the conclusions I’ve drawn for myself after viewing this thread in its entirety almost make me wish I could grab a bottle of Oxy.

Nah; stick with the Scotch.

In reply to You read fast

It’s legal, less costly, and most assuredly more benign with respects to the health consequences.

Almost anything’s better

In reply to Nah; stick with the Scotch.

That Oxy knocked me for a loop. When I laid down I had audio hallucinations of music and the pain was still so great that I couldn’t sleep. I was just in a stupor. Made me shiver just thinking about it.

Presumably you know that the manufacturer, Purdue Pharma L.P., …

In reply to Almost anything’s better

was busted for knowing of the dangers of Oxy while raking in the $$$ from its sales.

My first reaction was wow I didn’t know that

In reply to Presumably you know that the manufacturer, Purdue Pharma L.P., …

Now it just kind of pisses me off.

Sleeping Dawg and others warned me that Oxy was potent stuff before I had my operation. I didn’t get to stay in the hospital so I told my Dr. that I needed something good for pain. That’s what he gave me. It was still rough.

It makes you wonder how many medicines are on the market that shouldn’t be if the truth were known.

A very close friend of mine recently went to the Dr. with various issues. Her Dr. wanted to prescribe pills for high blood pressure and she refused. She bought an automatic blood pressure cuff and cut out all salt from her diet and in less than a week her blood pressure is now better than mine. A week!

I wonder how many ailments can be controlled thru diet and moderate exercise. I’m sure there are more than a couple. People don’t seem to want to take responsibility for their own health.

Must get coffee now. Thanks for that bit of information.

Far too many don’t want to work for their health, anymore than they do …

In reply to My first reaction was wow I didn’t know that

for anything else. It’s easier for them to just ask – in some cases demand – for the magic pill(s).

And, too many doctors are unable or unwilling to tell them “no.”

A good example of good intentioned drugs gone bad is [i]heroin[/i].

Double post -Go figure

In reply to My first reaction was wow I didn’t know that

.

I don’t know the story behind heroin

In reply to My first reaction was wow I didn’t know that

I do know that you’re right about people not wanting to take personal responsibility. I can see that easily by looking at my in-laws. I don’t know how my wife got to be so different from them but she is.

I know a guy that would go to the local V.A. hospital and come out with a big bag of drugs. I think he saw a commercial for a new drug on TV and created some kind of story for it to get it. He’s a “consumer” for sure. This is the same 300 pound guy that was just found collapsed on the floor at his house. He’s allowed himself to get so out of shape that he couldn’t even walk, he’d just shuffle. He’s in the hospital now, soon to be transferred to a nursing home. He’ll be there until he can get up and move about well on his own. Given his current condition, treatment and mindset it’s conceivable that he’ll be there for the rest of his life. He’s “out there”. From reports, he can barely recognize anyone. It’s quite sad really.

The V.A. isn’t exactly sure what’s wrong with him and they don’t plan any further treatment. I’m going to stay away from the V.A.

I won’t go to see him because him and I always got into it over simple stuff. He serves as a reminder to me of the type of person I DON’T want to be. I’ve read where dementia in elderly people is much more likely if they’re overweight. You may notice in a different thread here at TR that I’m working on that. The weight issue that is. My dementia problems will have to wait.

I could go on about the in-laws and their clutters of pill bottles and genuine obesity and myriad “ailments” but I’m not going to say anymore. Too depressing. I get to see all of them for the holiday feasts. Lucky me.

Heroin was commercially re-developed by the Bayer company; and, …

In reply to My first reaction was wow I didn’t know that

for a while, was championed by the Germans as a “wonder” drug. Following WWI, Bayer lost its trademark rights to the name “heroin.”

See the “History” section at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin

as well as Jay’s piece at

http://articles.techrepublic.com.com/5100-22_11-5082270.html

At least I’m not asleep at the wheel

In reply to You read fast

You make it sound like I don’t know what I’m talking about. In a way, you’re right. I have no proof in what I say. They are just opinions, and what I’m looking for, is live responses. No, I’m not trolling. I just want feedback on my thoughts. I admit, sometimes I twist the truth into a pretzel, but our government makes it so easy. To me, it’s open season on them. What do they expect. They’ve behaved badly for many many years.

I don’t think you’re trolling. Didn’t mean to imply anything.

In reply to At least I’m not asleep at the wheel

Have you read the thread and watched the videos? If not, you can’t know what it’s all about.

Re:I don’t think you’re trolling. Didn’t mean to imply anything.

In reply to I don’t think you’re trolling. Didn’t mean to imply anything.

I did read the thread but it’s a little hard to watch a video that has been removed. If you link me to it, I’ll watch it.

This link should work The video is 1hr 11 minutes long

In reply to Re:I don’t think you’re trolling. Didn’t mean to imply anything.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5355374476580235299&q=america+freedom+to+fascism&total=942&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3

I bought it on DVD. Pretty cheap from their website.
Aaron Russo, the main actor and producer of the film, recently died from cancer.

Good job reading the whole thread.
It’s always irked me to see someone jump into any lengthy thread at the tail end without their reading an entire thread and seeing what they’re getting into.

Video is long on claims & short on substance.

In reply to This link should work The video is 1hr 11 minutes long

At no time did it acknowledge the existence of Title 26 of the United States Code.

It’s one thing to rail against the excesses of governments. But, it’s quite another to make unsubstantiated claims to the effect that a government’s actions lack any foundation in law.

Please be advised: The news article below was not created by me. :)

In reply to Interesting quote

Who woulda’ thunk it?

=============================

Bush ‘planted fake news stories on American TV’
By Andrew Buncombe in Washington
Published: 29 May 2006

Federal authorities are actively investigating dozens of American television stations for broadcasting items produced by the Bush administration and major corporations, and passing them off as normal news. Some of the fake news segments talked up success in the war in Iraq, or promoted the companies’ products.

Investigators from the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) are seeking information about stations across the country after a report produced by a campaign group detailed the extraordinary extent of the use of such items.

The report, by the non-profit group Centre for Media and Democracy, found that over a 10-month period at least 77 television stations were making use of the faux news broadcasts, known as Video News Releases (VNRs). Not one told viewers who had produced the items.

“We know we only had partial access to these VNRs and yet we found 77 stations using them,” said Diana Farsetta, one of the group’s researchers. “I would say it’s pretty extraordinary. The picture we found was much worse than we expected going into the investigation in terms of just how widely these get played and how frequently these pre-packaged segments are put on the air.”

Ms Farsetta said the public relations companies commissioned to produce these segments by corporations had become increasingly sophisticated in their techniques in order to get the VNRs broadcast. “They have got very good at mimicking what a real, independently produced television report would look like,” she said.

The FCC has declined to comment on the investigation but investigators from the commission’s enforcement unit recently approached Ms Farsetta for a copy of her group’s report.

The range of VNR is wide. Among items provided by the Bush administration to news stations was one in which an Iraqi-American in Kansas City was seen saying “Thank you Bush. Thank you USA” in response to the 2003 fall of Baghdad. The footage was actually produced by the State Department, one of 20 federal agencies that have produced and distributed such items.

Many of the corporate reports, produced by drugs manufacturers such as Pfizer, focus on health issues and promote the manufacturer’s product. One example cited by the report was a Hallowe’en segment produced by the confectionery giant Mars, which featured Snickers, M&Ms and other company brands. While the original VNR disclosed that it was produced by Mars, such information was removed when it was broadcast by the television channel – in this case a Fox-owned station in St Louis, Missouri.

Bloomberg news service said that other companies that sponsored the promotions included General Motors, the world’s largest car maker, and Intel, the biggest maker of semi-conductors. All of the companies said they included full disclosure of their involvement in the VNRs. “We in no way attempt to hide that we are providing the video,” said Chuck Mulloy, a spokesman for Intel. “In fact, we bend over backward to make this disclosure.”

The FCC was urged to act by a lobbying campaign organised by Free Press, another non-profit group that focuses on media policy. Spokesman Craig Aaron said more than 25,000 people had written to the FCC about the VNRs. “Essentially it’s corporate advertising or propaganda masquerading as news,” he said. “The public obviously expects their news reports are going to be based on real reporting and real information. If they are watching an advertisement for a company or a government policy, they need to be told.”

The controversy over the use of VNRs by television stations first erupted last spring. At the time the FCC issued a public notice warning broadcasters that they were obliged to inform viewers if items were sponsored. The maximum fine for each violation is $32,500 (?17,500).

From: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article621189.ece

News of this made the rounds on “60 Minutes,” etal. last year, then …

In reply to Please be advised: The news article below was not created by me. :)

vanished like a UFO. At the time, the main focus was on the propaganda emanating from the Bush Administration.

Happening, as it did, prior to the election, it failed to gain any traction in Congress as a matter suitable for investigation; and, absent any upswell of public indignation, it sank beneath the waves of news re. Iraq, the upcoming election etal., etal., and was very quickly forgotten, even by the few who cared.

I have a hard time with the mainstream media (MSM)

In reply to News of this made the rounds on “60 Minutes,” etal. last year, then …

The MSM doesn’t tell us everything, never has. Back when I was copping around 30 years ago I realized that even local murders were left unreported. I asked people about that and the consensus was that there would be an uproar if the general public knew what was really going on.

I doubt that that has changed.

One thing the MSM is doing that is obvious to me is the lack of coverage given to some of the Presidential candidates. They even cut off the wide-angle shots before they get to people like Mike Gravel and Dr. Ron Paul.

I get my real news from the Internet and even then it’s tough to tell what’s real and what’s BS. If I find something that interests me I try to further substantiate it and find opposing views. It’s hard to be thorough. There’s no telling what I believe that might be just total hogwash.

With very little time for TV, and frequently being on the road, …

In reply to I have a hard time with the mainstream media (MSM)

I generally listen to PBS/PRI stations, particularly those that carry BBC feeds.

As for the net, I just don’t have the time to separate the wheat from the chaff; too many self-proclaimed “knowledgable experts” there.

BBC news is one of the websites I go to.

In reply to With very little time for TV, and frequently being on the road, …

They screw up once in awhile but at least they’ll admit it.

Long ago I came to the conclusion that nothing is as simple as it first appears. I have the time so I use the net as a research tool.

Aside from that, there are some very intelligent peers here that I’ve talked to over the phone that give my head a good, much-needed rattle. There are real people behind these screen names.

Not only does BBC admit to their mistakes, but, when their staff …

In reply to BBC news is one of the websites I go to.

[i]deliberately[/i] shades the truth, ignores the facts, etc., they [b]publicly[/b] take those responsible to task.

an odd contribution: honeybees and famine

In reply to Interesting quote

I wrote something in my personal weblog yesterday titled [url=http://sob.apotheon.org/?p=317][b]corn kills[/b][/url]. I figured I might as well throw this into the mix.

I have an RSS feed from your blog on my Bookmarks Toolbar

In reply to an odd contribution: honeybees and famine

I would’ve caught the article sooner or later. 😀

We may as well post a link to those intelligent-type blogs in this discussion because some of the other things here are pretty off-the-wall, to say the least.

I’ve been aware of the honeybee and bumblebee problem for a number of years. Recently I ran across an eco-website that was dedicated to the preservation of the bumblebee. Apparently some species are about to become extinct.

I recall seeing an article on the Internet probably 10 years ago that there was a tiny mite that was responsible. I guess that turned out to be wrong.

There is a lot of clover in my yard and this year it grew long enough to flower. There are/were hundreds of wild daisies. Very few honeybees and even fewer bumblebees. Interesting to read that there is a component of GM corn that could be killing them. Looking at my house with Google Earth shows that there are fields of corn and soy beans on three sides of us. It’s puzzling, to me, that the high definition maps stop just where the fields end. I wonder if big agri-corp requested the high-def to visualize their properties better. Who knows? If you don’t already have my address just say so and I’ll send it so you can see what I’m talking about.

(I had to stop typing for a news report on TV about corn and ethanol. Synchronicity, huh?)

There will no doubt be more corn farmers but not more farmers total. Almost all of the fields around here are owned by big corporations. The decision to plant crops isn’t made by the “farmers” who are essentially hired hands. It’s all about money.

What’s all this got to do with the price of corn at the grain silo? Nothing other than to say that I believe that there’s a general notion that farmers are still an independent breed who run their farms the way that they decide. That idea is wrong. Agri-corps started buying out smaller farms way back when. I remember seeing it 30 years ago and it’s been going on ever since. Very few family farms left. Agri-corp is huge business. You may know that already but I had to say something.

Farmhouses are “given” to the “farmer” as part of his pay. My son-in-law works for a 3000 acre mega-farm corporation. Just locally the corporation owns six houses that employees live in. They’re not just shacks either. SIL’s house is much nicer than this one.

Anyway, for the most part the farmers just do what they’re told. They’re hired hands that can be replaced in no time. If they’re told to spray GM crop Y with brand-X liquid that’s what they do, no matter the collateral damage.

I often wonder about the planning that takes place at the head of these agri-corps. I know some farmers who have a four-year Agricultural degree. I wonder how many corporate mooks do. I wonder how many care about the environment.

Wow. Just thinking. That whole GM crop, agri-corp, honeybee and bumblebee thing is deep and wide. If you, and others, haven’t read much about it I encourage you to do some searching. I find it hard to believe that our representatives have spent much time researching it. They probably read a few white papers and go with the big money. I can see a problem or two with that. I wonder who the beekeepers are going to vote for.

US agricultural policy is circling the drain.

In reply to I have an RSS feed from your blog on my Bookmarks Toolbar

“[i]I have an RSS feed from your blog on my Bookmarks Toolbar[/i]”

Good to know! I hope you’re enjoying it. I worry sometimes that my tendency to get on a particular topic area for a while, then shift radically to another largely unconnected topic area for a while, probably drives away a lot of potential regular readers.

“[i]I recall seeing an article on the Internet probably 10 years ago that there was a tiny mite that was responsible.[/i]”

Varroa mites have been a big problem for bees in the past, mostly because they’re cesspools of nasty infectious stuff that can cause severe health issues for bees (like death, for instance). They haven’t actually caused anywhere near the kind of drop in bee populations that have been observed within the last year, however.

“[i]If you don’t already have my address just say so and I’ll send it so you can see what I’m talking about.[/i]”

I’m pretty sure I don’t have that information handy. I might be able to Google-stalk you to find out, but it’d be easier to just get it via email, I’m sure. Yes, sometimes I’m lazy.

“[i]There will no doubt be more corn farmers but not more farmers total.[/i]”

That’s one of the big problems with agriculture subsidies: they draw farmers away from less subsidized (and thus less profitable) crops that are actually more important at a given moment. Market forces have a way of ensuring that the most important crops are the most rewarding to farmers, thus causing the need to be filled automagically — and subsidies have a way of screwing up that natural economic order of things.

“[i]I believe that there’s a general notion that farmers are still an independent breed who run their farms the way that they decide. That idea is wrong. Agri-corps started buying out smaller farms way back when.[/i]”

People also seem to have some notion that subsidies support small, independent farmers. The truth of the matter is that agriculture subsidies are almost entirely a case of corporate welfare, because large corporate farms tend to qualify for subsidies and small independent farms don’t. Subsidies actually drive small, independent farms out of business, because they can’t compete with the large corporate farms that are not only benefiting from the economy of scale, but also from artificial reduction of operating costs through subsidies.

“[i]Very few family farms left. Agri-corp is huge business. You may know that already but I had to say something.[/i]”

I did know, but I think it’s a good thing to bring up — especially in a public forum, where many others may come across the post and may not already know about the state of things.

“[i]That whole GM crop, agri-corp, honeybee and bumblebee thing is deep and wide. If you, and others, haven’t read much about it I encourage you to do some searching. I find it hard to believe that our representatives have spent much time researching it. They probably read a few white papers and go with the big money. I can see a problem or two with that. I wonder who the beekeepers are going to vote for.[/i]”

I’m pretty sure our so-called representatives in government haven’t read jack about it before passing laws and handing out subsidies (other than what the lobbysts put in front of them to read, of course).

Call me cynical if you must, but I’m pretty sure the beekeepers are going to vote for whatever candidate promises them the most subsidy money.

Related news

In reply to US agricultural policy is circling the drain.

http://rense.com/general78/yrs.htm

“Food is really a sellers’ market – you can decide to do without a lot of things, but you need food.”

[Author]

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