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Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

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Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

deICERAY
Microsoft has pulled XP off the shelves of every place I've looked for it, online they've pulled all but the OEM versions, meaning you can no longer upgrade to it. I find that outrageous and manipulative and in the opposite spirit of "support". I have never heard of that happening, have you? Do you think it's good business? I haven't looked into Vista at all, as I thought I could continue with XP for a much longer time. What's next? Are we going to have to upgrade all programs? Does it even support older software? Does this irritate you as much as it irritates me?
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    Yep

    Tig2

    Looking into alternatives as I have a family that I support and want them to continue to compute.

    We all got new computers before the end of the year. That insures that we have XP and restore options. I have some 98 and NT originals as well and can keep them safe.

    I have been exploring Linux as an alternative and having some great luck with that. I have to do some re-thinking but in general, Linux is being a positive experience.

    You may be able to find a real XP on ebay. That can be a solution.

    I'm just saying "no" to Microsoft. There are too many good alternatives out there.

    Incidentally, Vista may not even support your older hardware, much less your older software.

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    Yup

    w2ktechman

    I bought a system last year just in case as well. But I do find this a bad descision, trying to force everybody onto an unsupported OEM license or Vista.

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    Yep

    CodeBubba

    Tigger,

    I'm not "anti" Vista - but after evaluating it on a machine at the office I'm not interested in putting it on my systems - it doesn't solve any problems for me.

    I own 5 copies of XP - they're staying under lock and key!

    -CB :)

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    TheChas

    This is nothing new.

    Microsoft has been pulling old versions off of the shelf with increasing regularity when a new version is released.

    Actually, this is good business for Microsoft. It allows them to control the support workload and lets them set a clean end date for support.

    Another aspect is the typical consumer. When they go into a store to buy software they typically only buy an older version if it is priced at a deep discount. Most retailers just don't have the shelf space to stock a product that has a limited market.

    You can still buy XP and additional licenses. So, you can still upgrade to XP and wait on Vista.

    Chas

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    TechExec2

    .
    You can still buy Windows XP retail versions here (1).


    "...Microsoft has pulled XP off the shelves of every place I've looked for it, online they've pulled all but the OEM versions, meaning you can no longer upgrade to it. I find that outrageous and manipulative and in the opposite spirit of "support"..."

    It is a waste of time to use reason when it comes to Microsoft. They don't care. No corporation has a conscience, you know. The people who run them might (varies...BillG?...no), but they separate themselves from the corpus corporatus.

    Simply put: Microsoft thinks they can do anything they want. They defy EVERYBODY including governments. You don't really think they give a damn what you or I think, do you?


    "...Do you think it's good business?..."

    It has been so far for them. Microsoft has a very powerful monopoly that the U.S. federal government allows them to keep. Microsoft clears $49 MILLION in profit EVERY SINGLE DAY ($18 BILLION per year). During Friday happy hour, they celebrate another $343 MILLION in profit from people like you and me.


    "...Are we going to have to upgrade all programs? Does it even support older software?..."

    If you upgrade to Vista, yes. A lot of applications have problems on Vista, including older releases of MS Office.


    "...Does this irritate you as much as it irritates me?..."

    Not any more. I am completely calm and at peace now. I am NEVER going to upgrade to Vista, and I am just as happy as I can be about it. I'm FREE! And, I've been using Windows since 1992 (and still am as I type this).

    This is just like getting out of a bad marriage. Once you decide to do it, the world looks so much brighter! :-)

    You have all the power you need to be happy with your computer. If you don't want to upgrade to Vista, and you don't want to upgrade all of your applications, don't. There are other options, just like there are other fish in the sea.

    It is no accident that we have Macintosh and Linux and massive amounts of open source as very good options today. It's up to you to choose.


    -------------------------------

    (1) Windows XP retail versions

    Microsoft Windows XP Professional with SP2 - Retail
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16837116195

    Microsoft Windows XP Home Upgrade with SP2 - Retail
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16837116194

    Windows XP, various versions
    http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/002-5679488-9337636?url=search-alias%3Dsoftware&field-keywords=windows+xp&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go

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    bart99gt

    Woah...calm down!

    Are you still sore that OS/2 didn't catch on?

    Fact is, Microsoft released a product where there was a relative void beforehand. Apart from the various versions of the MacOS, there have been ZERO legitimate (ie., one that actually has a decent chance of getting widespread acceptance) user friendly desktop operating systems even introduced. Mac never caught on universally simply because it was (and still is) an expensive niche product. If you want to talk about price fixing, look no further than Apple. You either sell their product at the price they specify, or you don't sell it at all. I've looked at various retailers and there is NOBODY that discounts Macs. At least MS gives retailers some pricing leeway. If you're one of the conspiracy theorists that thinks MS is out to take over the world or whatever, you don't have to buy their products.

    Linux simply isn't a viable option until someone comes up with a distro that totally eliminates the need to do things on the command line. Your average joe isn't going to tolerate having to deal with a prompt to configure or install an application. This is coming from someone who uses Linux, BTW. I could *possibly* get away with setting up a Linux box for my father, but I surely wouldn't set one up for anyone else in my family.

    I'm not going to feel any sympathy for someone who is still trying to use Office 2000 or Office 97. From the standpoint of someone who works in IT support, there comes a time when you need to upgrade your software, regardless of what your personal feelings are about it. Eventually there comes a time even when 3rd party developers stop supporting an application. Of course, people are quick to forget that *many* Windows 95/98 apps wouldn't work out of the box with 2000 or XP. They had to be patched or some creative workarounds had to be implemented to make them work. And the same thing happened back then...people swore they'd never upgrade to 2000 or XP because some of their 2-3 year old programs wouldn't work with them.

    Hardware wise, I'm not sore that my 8 year old Adaptec SCSI card isn't supported by Vista (and probably never will be). No, manufacturers probably aren't going to write drivers for alot of older hardware. FWIW, my AMD 64 3200+ with 1GB of RAM works fine with Vista. If there's anyone to fault for 1-3 year old hardware not being compatible with Vista, its the hardware manufacturers! They've had more than enough time to write new drivers, IMHO (Creative anyone??). Of course, these companies are in business to sell NEW hardware and not support someone's 5 or 6 year old video card forever.

    Lastly, nobody is putting a gun to someone's head to go out and upgrade to Vista. In fact, if I hadn't gotten a FREE copy of Ultimate at a launch event, I'd still be plugging away with XP.

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    TechExec2

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    A little bit. I'm just tired of being manipulated by Microsoft. It's pretty offensive. The capricious DE-activation problems in the Vista WGA have forced me to decide to completely leave Windows on my primary computer. Microsoft's actions with WGA in Vista are very offensive. They sell $44 BILLION in software each year and clear $18 BILLION profit. That's fine. There may be a piracy problem, but it's the kind of problem I would SEEK to have. It certainly isn't necessary to put hundreds of millions of legitimate customers at risk.


    "...Linux simply isn't a viable option until someone comes up with a distro that totally eliminates the need to do things on the command line..."

    I don't know. I can do most things in the GUI with KDE (Fedora 6). I use the command line freely, so I really cannot say if there is anything significant lacking in the KDE GUI.

    ---

    I think it's fine if you want to run Vista. Vista (RC2) runs on my hardware also, complete with Aero Glass. I'm just not going to accept the WGA DE-activation nonsense. I don't have to. So, I won't.

    I had an attitude when I made that post. I'm OK. Really. :-)

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    deICERAY

    My major point remains that it is selfish and customer UNsupportive to summarily pull all copies of their OS's off the market, forcing you to buy Vista for anything new. It was never that way, period. I can still buy older versions of almost any software you can think of, and you used to be able to that with MS, and I think it's irresponsible to act this way. They are the overwhelming choice in the entire world for PC OS's, so why act like software nazi's?
    Now people all over the world will either
    a. hold off on upgrades
    b. consider Linux
    c. consider Macs
    d. all of the above, PLUS regard MS as an insensitive corporate monopoly (no surprise there) and maybe send a message to them and simply not upgrade
    e. (choice comes down the road) having held off until support/upgrades have vanished from microsoft.com for XP, they will HAVE to go to some other OS.
    It's all bad. It's all too bad, because all they had to do was business as usual, and eventually people would come around willingly - now they will only come around grudgingly and with attitude and with a strong desire to 'get out' of the MS stranglehold.
    OK, so that was more than one major point; consider it a patch to my first sentence.

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    bart99gt

    I don't recall 98 or 2000 sitting on the shelves for very long after 2000 and XP (respectively) were introduced.

    Of course it could have been a retailer decision to haul in copies of XP, since it appears that some retailers (mainly online) are still selling what copies of XP they have left in stock. Whatever is on the shelves of a store is actually the property of the retailer, so ultimately its up to them to keep it on the shelves or not.

    Eventually you MUST upgrade your OS or entire computer. Companies stop writing compatible software for older operating systems and hardware support dwindles.

    Let's step back and take a look at the big picture here. MS is marketing this product to the mass market, not just a small niche of consumers who might happen to keep every single computer they've ever owned for the past 5+ years and need an OS for each. Most people aren't going to run out and upgrade their OS just for the sake of doing so (well, unless you were one of the unlucky folks to buy a computer with Me on it). Most people will only experience Vista for the first time when they retire their old PC and buy a new one that already has Vista loaded on it. These kinds of people don't know and don't care that their local computer store or Microsoft (whatever the case may be) pulled XP off the shelves a month after the launch of Vista.

    BTW, it isn't that hard finding a legal or semi-legal copy of XP. There are probably millions of unused keys on PCs across the country because a business has a VLK copy of XP and never used (or activated) the key that was on the sticker of the 1000 PCs they bought last month. I'm not going to debate the specific legality of this, but anytime I scrap an old PC that has a serial key on it, I write it down. MS probably would poo-poo on this, but as far as I'm concerned, "ownership" has changed hands (albeit to the dump or recycler).

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    jusovsky

    Why this hysteria over Windows Vista being pushed by few retialers? Microsoft doesn't call the shots, and if said retailers really want to sell XP, Microsoft will gladly sell them more licenses. I verified this with Ingram Micro, D&H distributing, and even Microsoft Licensing sites this morning. It has nothing to do with Microsoft "pulling" anything from the shelves.
    You'd probably be a happier fellow if you removed Microsoft's nefarious Vista upgrade plans from your conspiracy theories. While you're at it, accept that JFK was shot by Oswald, the moon isn't made of cheese and that we really did land on it, and the Republicans are not trying to read your brain waves, so you can stop wearing that hat made of aluminim foil.

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    apotheon

    "Microsoft doesn't call the shots, and if said retailers really want to sell XP, Microsoft will gladly sell them more licenses."

    Imagine for a moment that Microsoft wants to sell Vista, instead of XP (this is obviously the case). Now imagine for a moment that you're a retailer. Where are you going to get copies of XP to sell if you want to sell them, but Microsoft doesn't want you to do so? What are you going to do about shrinking profits on Vista, as well, if Microsoft doesn't give you the same (lower) wholesale prices because you won't replace the XP stock on your shelves with Vista?

    Are you entirely unaware of how the software industry actually works (particularly when dealing with the major software vendors, like Microsot)?

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    rkuhn

    Now that this thread is a whole one month old, you've all been proven wrong.

    Most retailers and some OEM's have, are, and will be bringing XP back.

    So, any apologizes? Apparently, all along you could buy XP and not Vista and apparently those companies (including MS) are being customer friendly.

    End of story...ya'll are WRONG!

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    Pringles86

    Well... Maybe they shouldn't have done it in the first place.

    They are just now coming to their senses about it.

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    apotheon

    I pointed out that if Microsoft refused to sell XP to OEM vendors, the vendors wouldn't be able to resell them. That has nothing to do with whether or not Microsoft decided to sell them copies of XP after all.

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    Deadly Ernest

    and agitated for them to put XP back on the shelf, the choice wouldn't be there. DELL and co only make XP available now because they were losing too many sales through people wanting XP not Vista. It's called a consumer strike back. Or buying power.

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    w2ktechman

    Dell is offering XP because of demand for it. Their website for customer feedback was flooded with alternate OS's besides Vista. Mainly XP and Linux. This is why Dell is now offering both.

    If everyone was just happy and bought up machines with Vista, do you honestly believe that XP would suddenly start flowing again?

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    rkuhn

    Here's your quote:

    "Imagine for a moment that Microsoft wants to sell Vista, instead of XP."

    From that, you are correct, but then you went on to say:

    "this is obviously the case."

    And then to top it off, you said:

    "Are you entirely unaware of how the software industry actually works"

    OK, so you never did actually say MS stopped but like always, you heavily insinuate and suggest which I believe serves only to mislead the reader and you do it on purpose.

    Once again, you are wrong and have a hard time admitting it.

    MS may have started down the wrong road as far as making XP hard to get a hold of. But a few things.

    1) It was always available
    2) They corrected their actions based on feedback from customers

    That kind of behavior isn't of a mean spirited, greedy corporation. That kind of behavior to me looks like they responded to customer feedback and responded in a pro-customer service kind of way.

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    breathoffrost002

    I got some free versions of linspire, its a nice looking OS with some decent features, and i was able to get it loaded into my system with all the stability you could want


    but

    none of my games worked, it was pretty much net only, and there are plug ins that you can buy to make it work with most windows compatable objects, but then your shelling out like $150 in cnr

    so far vista has been alright, i got it free, its very nice looking, although i did spent a good 12 hours worth of time downloading and installing/reinstalling/reinstalling all the drivers for my MoBo and GFX card, and things still have some issues

    i would say to anyone considering vista, if youve got XP, hold off untill SP1 comes out for vista, unless you have a moderate to high technical knowledge and a good ability to scour the net for working drivers

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    apotheon

    I'm not sure how you could consider the fact that a Linux distribution isn't a Microsoft Windows release cause for a "but". If your only purpose is to run software designed for MS Windows, you should stick with MS Windows. If you want a stable, secure platform that has software of its own, however, you might want to look elsewhere.

    Your problem wasn't software support on Linspire. Your problem was looking for MS Windows software support somewhere other than MS Windows.

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    rkuhn

    Throw away all your MS software and MS supported software and go 100% open source.

    Oh boy, that'll speed up the masses converting to open source not to mention virtually eliminate the odds of any business doing so.

    You live in a dream world...

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    Deadly Ernest

    Because MS change their instructional code set with each Windows version most third party software, and some MS software, isn't compatible between versions. So you need to get new copies and shell out more bucks.

    In XP most of my older Windows software and games won't run, yet they work perfectly in Linux in either WINE or Cedega.

    I have friends at Uni who play NWN and a few other on-line games, the games are written for Windows based systems; yet they all say they see a better game performance on Linux using Cedega than on XP.

    I know many small businesses that are converting to Linux as it's cheaper for them to buy Crossover to run their few critical Windows applications in than buying the latest versions because their existing versions aren't compatible with Vista.

    So it all comes down to how much you want to pay and how much trouble you want to go through is 5 or 6 years when the next Windows version comes out.

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    rkuhn

    You would like most people to believe you don't you?

    Yes, some programs were "broken" when XP came about, mostly for security reasons. Just like some programs are "broken" when Vista came out.

    The numbers are much smaller than you imply. I can only think of one (1) program I have that I never got to work in XP when it did work in Win 98 and that is a game called "Shadow President".

    Needless to say, patches come out to correct issues and yes, occasionally people have to update. Take the whole Quicken issue at hand with Vista (Intuit's fault not MS...btw).

    But 9 times out of 10 the software that gets "broken" probably is so old it should be replaced anyways.

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    Deadly Ernest

    I don't have Vista at home, not prepared to waste the money, but helping someone else try to get their software working on Vista on two machines, upgrading from Windows 2000 and Win 98:

    MS Office 2000 - would not install

    MYOB - would not run properly, kept locking up.

    4 year old colour laser printer no drivers in Vista or from the manufacturer (QMS brand I think from memory).

    4 year old HP scanner no Vista drivers and no default drivers that allowed it to work properly.

    Special Dvorak keyboard drivers wouldn't install, and the default MS Dvorak conversion software didn't set it up as a Dvorak keyboard either. Need to map each key to get it right.

    Games that wouldn't install or run - Ceasar 3, Doom 95, Diablo, Diablo 2, Rise of the Triad, and several other games I can't remember the name of. I know I couldn't get some of these games to run properly in XP on my system either. Load an emulator and they would work, but that shouldn't be needed.


    Businesses need to be able to readily access documents from ten to fifteen years ago as that's how long some are required to be available for legal reasons, the majority have a minimum life span of 8 years - current tax year plus 7 years for tax laws.

    Office 2003 and 2007 do NOT readily open Word 6 or Word 2a or Excel 4 documents by just clicking on them. Yet Open Office does - seems they're better programmers than the MS ones.

    Yes, sometimes you do need to update the format of files, in most cases you just add extra capability and that's stored as extra code at the start or end of the file. But when you have to make a significant change, it's industry standard practice to give the file a different extension thus the changes to .jpg became .jpeg - this is to allow the system to know which is the which format. MS don't believe in doing this and just keep .doc and then arbitrarily stop supporting the older versions without making a public announcement. The companies that have older Word and Excel documents are just 'expected' to know they need to convert them to be able to use the latest versions of Office to read them.


    The problem with Quicken is MS's fault as MS has changed the instructional code set required to access key aspects of the OS and transfer commands to the peripherals and internal components.

    A well written OS means people can write software that's compatible with the OS and those same commands will work with the next version of the OS - a printer command should always be the same in every version of the OS, but not in Windows or other MS applications.

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    w2ktechman

    that the very next OS upgrade should not run large amounts of programs from the previous version?
    If it is built around the previous version, it should be able to run all of the programs properly.
    The difference would mostly be when a new OS is re-written completely, like win9x platform to WinNT platform. Or from 32-bit to 64 bit OS. If the security model changes, they should offer help to SW manufacturers who already pay them to be certified, to make the changes needed before the OS is released.

    As for this comment
    "Throw away all your MS software and MS supported software and go 100% open source."

    Why not? It can be done! It will not be an overnight thing, because most people are not interested in change. But, even if I can help people realize there is an alternative by using Linux instead, others that respect me will listen.
    In the last 2 weeks, I have given out 2 Linux cd's to normal Win users (live cd's). 1 person has not tried it yet, the other said they were going to install it and use it on a machine that they were going to scrap. That person tried the live cd and decided it was worth looking into moving to (PCLinuxOS '07 beta).

    But then again, people seek me for advice because they know and respect my opinion, something that you obviously know nothing about. Almost all of your posts are crap, and your attitude is shameful for an IT pro (if you actually are).

    Just because you are a MS fanboy, probably because you have 2 or 3 stocks in MS, is no reason to mislead people into being fools with bad advice.

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    Neon Samurai

    Apath dared to mention FOSS so we'd best take that single point to an extreme.

    In the case of this comment; your a troll

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    w2ktechman

    Edited due to wrong posting

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    Deadly Ernest

    it's available from www.winehq.com this works like a Windows emulator.

    Scouring the net for drivers would assume that people are writing drivers for Vista, I'm not sure many are doing that yet.

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    SO.CAL Guy

    there are plenty of driver for vista

    i tried wine and i don't care what any one says you get a perfomace hot explsley with games and wine is an emulator not works like

    and emulators suck

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    Deadly Ernest

    I checked the manufacturer's websites, they don't have Vista drivers for my gear, to go to Vista means a new printer, and new scanner, new accounting software, new version of MS Office, and then I also lose a lot of my old files as Office 2007 doesn't open all the older MS Doc formats.

    Why should I have to replace perfectly good hardware and software just to use Vista. no thanks, it's too costly.

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    rkuhn

    1) Please list and be specific your periphals. I'm interested in why NONE of them have Vista drivers.

    2) Office 2007 most certainly can open old file formats. There are already converters out for that.

    3) Why does upgrading to Vista force you to upgrade to Office 2007?

    FUD, more FUD, and damn lies.

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    w2ktechman

    Hey, have you tried Off03 on Vista???
    Then shut the F up!
    I have and it errored often, on not 1 but 3 systems. It was not until upgrading to Off07 when they would actually work as supposed to.
    So, maybe you should try it before saying anything. Just because MS says it works does not actually mean it does, or havent you learned that yet? If not, Why not???

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    apotheon

    Your stunning argument is that Office 2007 is compatible with older file formats because of "converters" . . . ?

    You've got to be joking. Really. That's just . . .

    Man. I don't even know what that is. Pathetic, I guess.

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    rkuhn

    Yes, actually I have.

    I got Office 2003 up and running on Vista beta without any problems.

    Yes, you're right, I don't use Vista just yet. One, I'm happy with XP at home and two, we haven't tested Vista at work with our ERP software just yet.

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    rkuhn

    Ok, so you're a huge anti-bloat fanboy.

    Tell me this. How exactly is any office suite ever going to support previous file formats dating back years and years without adding bloat to the suite?

    Periodically, file format changes become a necessity whether you agree with that or not.

    With Office 2007, yes there are converters in order to work through a transition period where older versions of Office will coexist.

    There are reasons why the world isn't using the same file formats that we used 10 years ago. And there are reasons we won't be using the same file formats 10 years from now.

    But, along your line of thinking, all software should either A) never change file formats or B) be bloated to **** and back so that they can support all formats dating back to the beginning of time.

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    NickNielsen Moderator

    Office 2007 most certainly can open old file formats. There are already converters out for that.

    Why would I want my office suite to open old file formats using internal bloat [bcksp][bcksp][bcksp][bcksp][bcksp][bcksp]converters instead of external converters? Gee, I don't know...

    How exactly is any office suite ever going to support previous file formats dating back years and years without adding bloat to the suite?

    Don't change the file format between versions. WordPerfect has managed to do that for two decades and is a better, far more flexible app than M$ w0rd will ever be. IMO, and yes, I already know yours is different.

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    w2ktechman

    Office 03 installs fine, if you open Word and type a few characters, it appears to work fine.
    Outlook sets up fine.
    USING either program for a little while will crash it or hang it.
    all problems solved when migrated to 07.

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    apotheon

    1. NickNielsen already covered the question of how to avoid bloat for supporting older documents -- don't change the file format every two or three years just to force upgrades. File formats do need to change now and then, but not the way Microsoft changes its formats. Besides that, something as critical as document backward compatibility isn't exactly "bloat".

    2. You say "But, along your line of thinking, all software should either A) never change file formats or B) be bloated to **** and back so that they can support all formats dating back to the beginning of time." You seem to have missed the fact that there are a number of office suites out there with a tiny fraction the installed size of MS Office that not only support fifteen years or so of legacy file formats, but actually support fifteen years or so of Microsoft Office file formats -- well beyond what MS Office itself supports.

    edit: In any case, I just find it astounding that you try to say that MS Office supports older file formats by pointing out the existence of external converters. Como se huh? That's like saying you have a .22 LR rifle that'll take .308 Winchester rounds, as long as you use a separate rifle, or (for a more accurate analogy) mill the bullets down to about a .22 inch diameter and seat them in a .22 LR shell casing yourself.

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    Deadly Ernest

    OK here's an incomplete list and some other comments

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    Tig2

    And recall that not all of us are in the US. As such, hardware may be dramatically different but still need to work, regardless.

    While I understand that we are more and more a global society, it is critical to recall that we are different people.

    When we signed up to this board, it was with the knowledge that we would be exposed to people of different culture and language. To expect everyone here to be US born and bred is fallacy in the extreme.

    I just begin by assuming that everyone who chimes in on a discussion has a truth to tell. For those who have only flames, I am saddened and disappointed. I thought better of you only to have you prove to me that valuing your opinion is a waste of my time.

    Not everyone you disagree with is an idiot, Rickk. If you would just can the rhetoric, I believe you would discover as much.

    I took the time to try to understand where you were coming from. Perhaps you could learn to extend that courtesy to others.

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    Neon Samurai

    But it's a thin layer emulating the hardware only. WINE can be a little laggy though and there are other emulators that really take a performance hit. My WINE based Google Earth runs fine.

    Now, I may have recommended Cedega for gaming but WINE should do well also depending on the resource demand of the game.

    And just to keep the Windows fanatics ryled up; Longbow2 written for win95 runs flakey on winXP even with 95 or 98 "compatability". I've also got a friend asking me to see if I can get his own win95 game running under XP though I think they will be putting a win98 box together for it.

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    Tig2

    Is DOSBox an option? I have used it successfully to work with older software.

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    Neon Samurai

    Janes Longbow 1 was a dos flight sim (technical chopper to be specific) and would probably have a chance with DOS compatability or the option to boot to a dos environment (Is that still there, I used it last with winNT).

    Janes Longbow 2 (still not replacable by any other chopper flight sim option that I've found) is pure GUI so I think a Dos box would be of little help since it's looking for the win95 graphic environment.

    The othe game I'm going to have a go at getting to run is an old win95 Animaniacs game which is also a graphic environment.

    Incase I'm mistaken though, is the DosBox option just a windows dos environment or is this something different that I may not have yet stumbled across?

    Your comment to Rikk was well spoken. I suspect he started with the good intentions of pointing out true FUD against Windows when posted but if that was the starting point, he's digressed into the very troll he claims to have been responding too. I thought I simply taking things too personally when he lost credability in my view; I'm glad to know I'm not just being overly sensative.

    And now for something completely different... (a man with three buttocks)

    Rikk; don't get me wrong, I keep saying you post some great comments and that includes the "what's your network" discussion you started. As you say though "I call it like I see it" to which I still prepose that how "I see it" (er.. you see it) has been skewed by your own bigotry and personal mission to make life misserable for anyone who mentions anything FOSS without end notes, explicit references points and detailed statistical analysis including all calculating formula.

    Now I'm still going to take each of your comments indavidually in an effort to not let my opinion of a seporate comment currupt the potential value of a current comment. Hostile comments, however, will be treated with the respect they show and are due as a result. You get what you give and I hope it's a load of great information where you give and verbal "curby" where you detract.

    I hope Ubuntu continues to treat you well and I hope one day you get off your high horse and pull the MS pole of rage out of your @ss. You'll find that some of us heretics are actually very intelligent people with much information to offer and a much more open view of software than you give credit for.

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    rkuhn

    Thanks for the politically correct BS speech.

    Who expects us all to be from the US? Not me.

    And who said I believe anyone that disagrees with me is an idiot? Thanks for speaking for me and putting words in my mouth.

    It's not just me spreading rhetoric. I will never extend courtesy to anyone who relentlessly attacks MS for no purpose other than for sport.

    Lastly, the amount of mindless lemming like behavior on TR is mind numbing. Open source has become (for some) a cause and NOT a technical debate.

    It's to those that I primarily target my comments to.

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    rkuhn

    If you have XP but are replacing your PC, go the Vista route.

    The OEM will be installing hardware/software that has been tested and will work with Vista. So there shouldn't be any problems there unless you are installing older hardware/software on the new PC.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/tech-news/?p=462&tag=nl.e019

    I'll not mention any names as the person concerned knows who he is. :^0 :^0 :^0

    Col

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    Neon Samurai

    "
    i got it free
    "

    Free as in paid with it in the cost of a new machine, free as in given too you form work to learn or free as in "uh.. it turned up ;)" purely curiousity though so don't fee like your in a fight.

    I'm with you on the last bit definately; Vista will be better after SP1 when full driver and third party software support mature.

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    TUFOP

    Couldn't have said it better myself. I was at the same event but had to leave about an hour before it ended and never got the copy of Vista I went for. I guess you got to play by the rules. I can't go into a Toyota showroom and say give me a brand new 2002 whatever.

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    Deadly Ernest

    Over the last 12 months, I've tried a lot of Linux packages, and in SimplyMEPIS the only command line function I've used in the last f our months is to run a PING command, and you have to do that in the command line in Windows. I know one of the Linux packages for network management is all GUI and does it from the GUI, so I don't have to use the command line, but I prefer to do it from the command.

    Most Linux distribution also support a lot of the older hardware, and if they don't any driver written for earlier versions of the same Linux branch will work, in every case I've tried they have.

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    bart99gt

    I'm actually running Ubuntu as we speak.

    I'm technically savvy enough to use Linux. I've gotten fairly comfortable with it so far as basic computer usage is concerned. However, there's no way I could hand a computer loaded with Linux to most of my family members though, and most of them aren't technically ignorant by any stretch.

    Linux isn't ready for prime time yet. Its a heck of a lot better than it was even 2-3 years ago, but there are some important aspects of it that are still way over the head of your average computer user.

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    jmgarvin

    What is way over the head of average users?

    I'm curious because the install is cake (Ubuntu installs from CD while your OS is still running) and everything is setup out of the box, including and office suite.

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    Deadly Ernest

    both have a very Windowsie like look and feel. Ubuntu uses the Gnome desktop by default, while SimplyMEPIS uses the KDE desktop by default. I've installed this on a few machines for some very tech illiterate people, and they've had no trouble switching over. Just ensure their commonly used programs are easy to find, ie desktop icons if possible - clicking on an icon is all they need to know.

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    Tig2

    I have had the best luck with Kubuntu but am thinking that PCLinuxOS will be better.

    My end user is a 76 year old who is very bright but a total novice. She was "raised" on Windows.

    Linux may not be altogether ready for the corporation- although there are those that argue compellingly that RHEL is ready- it is a possible alternative for those home users whose functionality requirements are different.

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    Brian.Crawford

    grow up, no difference than any business, when a products done it's done. when was the last time you could order/buy a new year 2000 vehicle or a 5year old TV

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    I continue to day to buy M$ DOS without a problem. Apparently M$ AU is selling about 50 copies per month without any support so actually M$ is still offering DOS as a product that they are selling and their Legal Department is encouraging this practise to continue.

    As for the other Big dead OS that I support from M$ NT4 I'm forced to buy a copy of XP Pro and use the Backward License to install it though to be fair to M$ they did give me a CD & Product Key for NT4 when I pointed out that I needed this product for a specialised application that doesn't run on anything newer than NT4.

    Provided that I keep buying XP Pro Licenses M$ doesn't give a dam how many times that I use the NT4 Install CD.

    But I'm wondering what will happen when Vista finally becomes the Norm and what version I'll be forced to buy to install NT4 then and much more importantly How Much will it cost?

    Col

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    They charge you for the Laser Sighting equipment that goes on the Plant and all around the work site and then Give You the Software that enables you to get the earthworks to within 2 cm's of the design.

    Apparently this is for such a small market that they are no longer interested in supporting the software so maybe when I have the time I could Port it to Linux or something like that.

    Or take the easy way out and just forget to tell M$ about it any more.

    After all this is On Site without any Internet Access so there are no security risks as it only drives the Laser equipment. The software now is a Give Away to allow the continued sale of the laser equipment. The problem here is you can not buy what isn't made. :^0

    But I would just love to be there when some Legal Git for M$ arrives to audit their software, being earthmover's they are likely to deck the guy then run over him in his car with a Big Excavator or Bulldozer and that's when they are being nice. If they get upset I'm sure they would want to see what was stronger 2 D10 Cats going in opposite directions or the Legal Git for M$ tied between the two dozer's. :0

    At one of these places I was asked to look at a computer to repair it and it wasn't in the Site Office apparently the person who used it got slightly upset with it and parked a 40 ton excavator track on top of the tower. Of course they just said that they threw it out an failed to mention that there was this Bloody Great Big Excavator currently sitting on top of it.

    Col

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    Neon Samurai

    I've heard it's still alive and well in the embedded world also. Embedded Linux, embedded Dos or something developed in house seem to be the norms these days.

    As for my own license; Dos boots in under a second on an AMD 1.9 ghz. Now if only I could think of something remotely useful to do with that perfectly tuned command.com since I've yet to rebuild any software on it and can't route the VMware Server com port to a telnet deamon.

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    Tig2

    I can purchase brand new parts for a 20+ year old vehicle. But then, so can you.

    And I just bought a "Titled as New" 2002 Saturn with warranty. Beautiful car. Has a little pink ribbon on her nose.

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    rkuhn

    But not new.

    You can't call Saturn and tell them you want a brand new, factory built 2002 Saturn. Not going to happen.

    His point is still valid.

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    Tig2

    However I can buy new 20 year old car parts. I dare say that I may be able to purchase new 10 year old computer parts.

    New meaning "never before purchased or used."

    I think that the key point is that not every end user wants the newest, biggest, baddest, whatever. They want reliability and they want familiar. They want dependability. And they want to know that they can find support when they need it.

    I also think that we techie types think on a different plane than the average end user. We see technology in a different light because we will use it in different ways. We tend to want to explore the length and breadth of new technology to see and understand what we can use it for.

    The beauty of a world that includes a variety of different technologies is that we can custom fit solutions that are truly based on customer need.

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    rkuhn

    Other than to be misleading then, why did you say ""Titled as New" 2002 Saturn"?

    You were either intentionally misleading or your analogy is false.

    BTW, there are still plenty of "brand new parts" out there for free for older versions of Windows. So, once again your analogy is false.

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    Tig2

    Brian said that you couldn't buy new old parts. I say that you can. Either way, flawed analogy or not, the fact is that you CAN indeed purchase new parts that are old.

    Your point to software is equally valid. There is a lot of older technology available, much of it free, for those who would prefer it. As I said above, the beauty of a world that includes a variety of technologies is that we can custom fit solutions that are truly based on customer need.

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    apotheon

    It's obvious rickk is just "playing stupid" because he wants anyone that disagrees with his opinions to be Wrong -- thus, he refuses to get your point.

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    w2ktechman

    was never registered to anyone except the dealer, and it was in all purposes in the new condition. whether or not it was the newest model created is beside the point.

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    Tig2

    And the ability to do so is not unusual.

    I just happened to luck into a very sweet deal on my new Saturn. She is a beautiful little car that is no longer produced- 2002 was the last model year for my Saturn.

    I think that I am going to have to send Palmetto a new hard hat. It seems that any response to Rickk is the equivalent of feeding a troll.

    Can we take away his birthday or something?

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    rkuhn

    Apparently, you have a reading comprehension problem or you interpret only what you want to hear.

    He said, "when was the last time you could order/buy a new year 2000 vehicle or a 5year old TV".

    No where in that did he mention anything about parts. He said a vehicle or a TV. Nothing about parts.

    Yet, you continue to pound away just to prove a point that doesn't exist.

    Once again, as the crowd roars in hating me, I'm only pointing out the obvious and the truth.

    Go ahead, spin this anyway you want, but you're still wrong. I imagine you'll go back to calling me names or accusing me or this, that or the other, but again, he didn't mention anything about parts.

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    rkuhn

    No, the analogy is wrong because it is based on a false premise.

    No where were "parts" mentioned.

    Re-read the post.

    But once again, you and your "friends" are taking the journalistic liberty to spin something to suit your needs instead of working with the facts.

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    rkuhn

    Oh Dear Lord!

    We're sinking to all new levels.

    Never registered, blah blah blah.

    You sound like Bill Clinton and "it depends what is is".

    Ok, so imagine this. HP overstocks a product with Windows 98 on it. They find it in a warehouse 10 years later and you can still buy it.

    Yeah! Just about as ridiculous as your interpretation of her statement in an apparent attempt to bail your friend even when she's wrong.

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    Tig2

    Was a commodity.

    Please stop this. You have good points but the ranting does you no credit nor does it allow anyone to see your side.

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    Tig2

    You can beat me up all you wish to. There aren't many people here who fail to recognise you as the troll you are.

    You are attacking people for no purpose and bringing nothing to the table. You attack anyone and everyone who tries to bring a level of reason to any technology discussion.

    Listen up, sonny. You are in no way, shape, or form a "technology professional". You are an *** and you obviously wish to continue to be one.

    You go on poking people. I hope you do the same sh*t in real life as it would give me the comfort of knowing that someone will eventually clean your clock.

    You are an embarrassment to the profession.

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    w2ktechman

    you are either really stupid, or just like to hear your keyboard clicking. You seem to think that you are convincing people of something, but instead you are looking more the a$$ than anything else. You have deluded your brain into thinking that you are important or something. That crack pipe has really tweaked you boy!
    Ok, lets look at what I wrote, c'mon scroll up a bit. Ok, I commented merely on how I interpreted Tiggers comment. I did not include anything else. So I sunk to low levels, how exactly? Only in your warped mind young'un.

    I will say however that the HP and 98 thing is in the same arena, although SW changes faster than autos.

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    w2ktechman

    And I would doubt that anyone gives him credibility at all. So for being beaten up, I think not. See it takes reason to win, and, well, Rickk has none. I think that he just likes to instigate crap honestly, thats why I do not usually reply to his posts, nor read them. But even I get bored sometimes and want to see what humorous items that Rickk posts. After all, circus clowns need attention too! Besides, it gives me a good chuckle to know that Palmetto, well, nuff said.

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    Deadly Ernest

    Rickk,

    The difference with Ford and MS is that Ford didn't try to push the consumers into the Edsel by withdrawing all other models; MS did; and continue to do so in less obvious manners. Ford accepted they did a lemon and fixed it with a new model that WAS better. MS try to hide the lemon under a new paint job and a few extra bells and whistles - the engine still sucks.

    Windows 3.11 got rave reviews by everyone who saw it, so did NT at first.

    TT,

    Trolls don't have birthdays, they're created by super compressing garbage until it's super dense. You're at a serious disadvantage in this argument, he's dragging you down to his level of idocy so he can beat you due to his higher experience.

    BTW In the mid 1970s I worked for a company that finally got around to clearing out its old warehouse. In the back of the building we found over 3,000 spares parts that were brand new, still in their original wrappings for cars from 1925 through to 1936 - brand new parts for old cars. Must have been some sort of record at the time. Most of the cars they fitted were no longer on the road anywhere. Near as we can figure they must locked the back rooms up prior to WW2 and later forgot about them when other things were stacked in front of the doors.

    General
    My biggest concern with Windows for years has been their refusal to clean up the kernel and close the back doors that are utilised by the trojan and virus programs. despite that, I still supported them until about a year ago when they forced WGA down our throats and started screwing over machines on a regular basis because it's faulty and they won't fix it properly.

    About seven years ago they put forward a concept for their future of computing which got heavily bagged as being to draconian, now they're introducing it bit by bit. They want to set up the Internet so every message you send is checked through their clearing house to ensure all your software is registered and they get a slice from everyone's pie. Look up the past discussions on Secure Computing and Palladium.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    About 25 years ago now one army base was closed down and as they where clearing it out they found 300 Pre WW11 BSA M20 Motorcycles still in their original packing crates unassembled and still wrapped in Grease Proof paper.

    These Pre WW11 Motor Cycles when registered had to be registered as New as they had never previously been registered and to make matters worse because of the age of them they where considered as Classic Motor Cycles and attracted a greater Tax component than what a new off the floor modern Motor Cycle would ever attract. I bought 5 of these when they came up for auction and when I moved north I had to sell them off 2 where out of their crates assembled and running as show Bikes while the other 3 where still unpacked and remained unassembled.

    From a Legal Prospective these 1930 something Motor Cycles when first registered where considered as NEW and there is no other way to consider them. Of the 3 that I sold unassembled and still in their original crates they where sold as New and no one would accept that they where anything but that New Old Stock that had never been pulled out of their packing crates.

    The ex army M20's looked great beside my much older restored M21 and sidecar. Now I stick to fast fun to ride Motor Cycles and while I would willing buy a 1950 something Vincent HRD Black Shadow if I could ever find one it's the only current Pre Classic that I would now be interested in looking at.

    Col

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    :)

    rkuhn

    Pretty funny how everyone has to come up with the most extreme examples to support TT's point of view but no one can come up with a normal, everyday example.

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    NickNielsen Moderator

    One or two of my former students work in the local office store. They were directed to pull all Windows XP off the shelf for return the evening before the Vista release date.

    TechExec2 provided some links. You might also check around at local computer stores (not the chains). They may still have some XP available.

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    Deadly Ernest

    means it's now legal to use pirate copies as you can't be taking away any sales since they aren't willing to sell any more XP anyway.

    MS=SB

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    CharlieSpencer

    Try to find a 2006 car. Try buying "last season's" clothes after the new lines are stocked. My wife hated it when a restaurant changed the recipe of her favorite entree. There's nothing new about this.

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    deICERAY

    As I recall, when WinXP came out you could still buy ME, 2000, even Windows 3.1 in stores and online. No, I believe this is a sea change at MS, taking hold of the enormous monopulative powers they have and abuse and will continue to get more controlling and exclusive and insistent until we all move over to an open system and leave them in the dust. Linux, anyone?

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    If you can't find a 2006 car, it's because they've all been sold; the manufacturers certainly did not require all the dealerships to return all unsold 2006 cars as soon as the 2007 rolled out! I always buy last season's clothes from clearance racks, but prefer the styles from the late 40's (buy vintage patterns from ebay).

    But who cares if M$ wants to shoot themselves in the foot. The biggest difference in Vista & XP, besides compatibility problems, is stronger copyright control & more control over activation processes. Then they slapped on a new coat of paint and some extra chrome to bait people into their trap. That just means there will be a greater availability of pirated copies of XP Pro Corp for those who care to look & Linux is looking better every day.

    So what if you don't get those regular patches - most of the patches open up more holes than they fixed. Just get a good firewall (or 2) and learn to use some of the advanced blocking features. And as for support, how much support have any of you every gotten from M$? If you can ever get anyone who knows a bean from a butthole, they'll refer you back to the manufacture of your computer or the store where you bought it. The first time I hosed the activation on my legal XP installation (I changed something that caused it to prompt for reactivation - immediately - not 30 days or even 7 days grace)on a Friday afternoon and the 800 # for M$ activation gave me a recording that they were closed & to call back during regular business hours on Monday morning - I was done with M$ controlling my personal possessions!

    Leave the butterfly in it's cocoon & let's all give a warm welcome to the penguin!

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    MavMin2

    That is why I am planning on using Ubuntu for machines that are too old for XP or VISTA. My church was given a lot of PCs for our school and MS did give us a W2K disk for them. However, I have far more machines than I need and people continue to give them to me but I cannot legally use the W2K disk so it looks like Ubuntu is my best recourse so I can give these PCs to families that can't afford a PC but need to gain some experience or their kids need to do schoolwork.

    I desperately need a XP disk by Saturday and it is ticking me off that they are not available.

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    XP

    MavMin2

    I just returned from Frys that still had some copies on the self. There were three upgrades and I bought two. They had about a dozen of the full version. One of my friends said that if you ask the clerks they may have the XP in the back and will sell it to you.

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    Deadly Ernest

    runs KDE as default, it also has some easier access to the more commonly used administrator functions. Security wise, it's slightly better as it asks you set set up a different password for the root access during the install.

    SimplyMEPIS even uses the Ubuntu repositories for many of the package updates.

    edited to add.

    The KDE interface is more Windows style than the Gnome and I find people used to Windows can migrate to KDE relatively easily, but sometimes have trouble with moving to Gnome.

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    MavMin2

    Thanks for the tip. I'll look into this further.

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    Tig2

    Also have a look at PC Linux OS for people who are accustomed to Windows look and feel and are not technical.

    SimplyMEPIS is also a good one. There are many more based on what you want to do.

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    danglingwrangler

    First, I am independently employed in the IT industry as a consultant from 14 years experience all the way to CIO, before striking out on my own, (due to layoff like most others). I would request repliers clarify your vested interest in Microsoft or others, so everyone knows where everyone is coming in this discussion, without naming company names.
    Lets take the blinders off and let the frank discussion ensue about Microsoft "Vista" - it "requires" a brand new machine almost as the cheap dells and all the other cheap (under $700.00) boxes store bought just won't take a Vista upgrade! It take a minimum 1GB of memory just to run Vista adequately, another Direct9x Video card (under $150.00) shares 256 MB more of memory. You spend more than $200.00 on Direct 9x video card and the memory usually comes on-board (so there is no addt'l share requirement), in most cases.

    Now this is before your machine is running "ANYTHING" else. Adobe Photoshop or Intuit Quickbooks Premier would boost the computer requirements at least another 256 - 500 MB of memory.

    So lets review so far the expense of upgrading the insecure Vista OS just to see brilliant image rendering when you open your text based email (for security reasons) - Basic Vista Home Edition with "Aero Glass image rendering $299.00, Direct 9x video card required to run Vista 9x with Aero Glass $200.00, most likely memory upgrade of at least 1 GB (if older Bios is capable) $99.00. So you will spend most likely $500- $600.00 for Vista upgrade.
    Is there any wonder there is an underground software industry? The middle class is being squeezed right out of this consumer category, just like the numerous other ones where the middle-class just has to go home empty handed.

    Do you think Microsoft is in cahoots with any any kind of conspiracy with all the Computer Manufacturers it partners with to force people to buy new computers vs spend in the neighborhood of $500- $600.00 to upgrade an old computer to run the the basic stripped down version of Vista????????

    Are we seeing the beginning of a class structure - the middle class that no longer will be able to afford to have a new computer or at least wisely justify that kind of expense just to enrich the billionaires Bill and Michael and keep their bank accounts flush????

    It is my opinion that the answer is YES to the above questions and the IT techs that stand up to this sort of malarkey get out-sourced off-shore.

    Maybe it is time to unionize. They can not take all the jobs off-shore... and to think that this situation will change or that Bill and Michael are NOT sitting around thinking how they can accelerate this scenario to prevent this very thing in the IT community - unionization I frankly am surprised if hasn't started already - unionization in IT. It really is heading toward critical mass fellas....and gals. Anyone got another scenario ??????????

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    Why Me Worry?

    Unions won't do much for the IT industry, but annoying the crap out of congress to put a plug on this out of hand H1-B fiasco will. Bill Gates just made a bullshiit speach to congress regarding a so called "shortage" of skilled IT workers here in the USA and asked to expand the H1-B program. Perhaps if this greedy pig paid decent wages us Americans can live on instead of outsourcing to 3rd world crapholes where they pay pennies on the dollar to people who can't even speak proper English, there wouldn't be a so called "shortage".

    Screw Bill Gates! He calls himself a "philanphropist", yet he is quick to sellout the USA to some 3rd world craphole. Perhaps he forgot thjat is was the USA and people like us that made him a billionaire and not India or China.

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    Deadly Ernest

    and this will cost me clients as I've already told them I won't work on a Vista machine. Some are smart enough to wonder why and looking at other options, others just ignore me thinking they can talk me into it later.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    In about 2 years time but only on the Original Version and not the SP included version which will take another 2 years to fully test.

    Then when that is ready for you to start working on it there will be a New Windows about to be released again. Some how I think that M$ actions on this one will be the start of people looking for some form of substitute as they are by now sick & tired of the M$ Drug Dependency and will start looking for something that doesn't treat them all like criminals and actually works. :^0

    Col

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    Deadly Ernest

    Some on-line stores here in Australia still have stocks of other Windows available, while stocks last. They include retail, OEM, full packs and upgrade packs, also Academic upgrades. The versions include

    Win XP Pro
    Win XP Pro 64 bit edition
    Win Server 2003
    Win ME
    Win 98 SE

    The few I've contacted say it's only while they still have stocks as they can't get any more from MS, MS are only selling Vista now.

    edit to add

    They also have some copies of Office 2003 and Office XP available on the same conditions. MS now sell only Office Vista to them.

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    w2ktechman

    I guess we have been looking at different areas of the site...

    Anyway, yes, they can still be found. Also, last year I went online (ebay) just to check, and found several copies of Win 95 as well. they are available but, not easily available or available from the most trusted places.

    looking back, I should have picked up a dozen copies of XP a few months ago.....

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    Deadly Ernest

    other issues. I was out for a while with health issues, and slow in returning from that, when I had some major hardware issues. Fixed that and took time to try out several other Linux distributions before rebuilding with SimplyMEPIS and reloading everything.

    That delayed my full recover a bit, then copped some compulsory govt training. Now I have to catch up on several week housekeeping and cleaning.

    If you love the XP look and can't get it, PC Linux is worth looking at.

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    gadgetgirl

    Are you ok now?

    All back healthy?

    GG

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    Deadly Ernest

    My health is improving again, but I'll never be 100% again. The condition I'm in at the moment is very touchy, at this point in time it's more a case on long term exhaustion than anything else. The cancer is in a wait and see what happens basis as they couldn't cut it all out, too close to the spinal column and brain. The memory problem I had following the operation is getting better now. I stopped forgetting what i went to the fridge for, now I can remember what I'm after for the whole trip of several metres. There are still times when I forget what I went into town for, that's a 60 km trip, so I've got more time to forget. But that's life, and the alternative is something I'm not sure I'm ready for yet.

    I'm glad to see that someone other than my bank manager is concerned about my health, especially as he's more concerned about me reducing my overdraft.

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    david_springer_56

    you might consider yourself in a position to try something IN ADDITION to whatever you're already doing--somethine which might prove helpful and can 'do no harm'. google: Royal Raymond Rife. here are a few of the sites i found 'interesting', in no particular order:
    www.rife.org
    www.rife.org/rifecdorder.html
    www.royalrife.com www.rifelabs.com
    www.truerife.com www.rife.de
    www,geocities.com/fifetube
    www.home.earthlink.net/~vibranthealth/
    www.home.earthlink.net/~vibranthealth/Misc/RifeResearch.htm
    www.home.earthlink.net/~vibranthealth/Misc/RelatedSites.htm
    www.energywellness.co.nz/index.htm
    www.noriftrife.com

    check the spelling if any of these don't connect. mine's terrible. there are dozens if not MANY more out there. researcher/buyer BEWARE. self education is a MUST.
    Frank Zappa once said something to the effect of: 'go to the library and educate yourself if you have the guts!' that was before the internet got huge.
    may this find you doing well. dave

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    TheChas

    I wonder what is going to happen in a few years when MS drops support for XP.

    Will they shut down the license servers on the same day?

    What is going to happen 5 or 10 years down the road if you need to install XP clean on a system and the MS license server is no longer there to allow you to activate your legal copy?

    Just food for thought.

    Chas

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    TechExec2

    That is why I'm getting out now. I'm never going to upgrade to Vista, will continue to use XP, will eventually will stop using XP and use Linux and Macintosh instead.

    This nonsense from Microsoft is unacceptable to me.

    If I do have Windows around, it will be for limited purposes only. It will be the "alien" system in the shop and will be watched like a hawk! :^0

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    w2ktechman

    by 10 years from now, XP will probably have little HW support, and SW support should be scant at best.
    But, by this time, most people would have upgraded their systems to newer systems anyway. Just before the deadline for XP support, I plan on rebuilding my system anyway if I am still using it. But I dont think that I still have any 10 yr. old systems anymore.

    Additionally, with the way Linux has made strides over the past few years (in '99 it was hard to use), it should be a good viable solution for many home users within the next 10 years.

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    Why Me Worry?

    I really don't know what else to say, even though I don't condone piracy or cracking mechanisms in software to thwart piracy, but what if you indeed have a legit copy and MS decided to shut down their XP activation servers?

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    bart99gt

    Why would you need to install XP in 5 or 10 years from now in the first place? In 10 years, XP will be 15(!) years old. It would be like someone trying to install Windows 95/98 (or DOS 6!)on a PC today. Anything that would require XP in that far in the future would probably be on its last legs anyway or it would be nearly impossible to find vital software like anti-virus programs or security patches that are updated on a regular basis.

    I've got copies of Windows 98 and 2000 that haven't seen use in over 5 years now.

    My WAG is that MS would probably just set something up that would allow *any* copy of XP to be activated, regardless of source, after official support comes to an end. As I stated in another reply, software and hardware companies are in the business of selling NEW products, not supporting legacy ones forever. Basically by doing this, they'd wash their hands of anyone who would get upset because they can't use their 7 year old PC anymore. Sheesh...this is about as bad as people who used to ask me if their old Tandy 1000s were still useful in the late 90s!!

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    daveo2000

    While it is true that most folks probably won't want to install a new version of XP in 5 or 10 years, there will, without a doubt, be a few.

    I am sure that you will be able to find quite a few folks here at TR that know somebody running DOS 3.1 applications on a PC either at home or at work.

    Why should anyone be forced to upgrade their software system if it does exactly what it is supposed to be doing?

    Most of the world moves along a lot slower than software development. A 10 year old printing press is not an antique, it is a printing press. It does work. If I was unfortunate enough to install one that relies on an XP system to operate it and then, 5 years from now have to replace several components of that system, why shouldn't I be able to? With XP (and probably Vista) if you change too many parts in that PC it will force you to recertify the license. What happens to your otherwise perfectly functioning system when you can't recertify the OS?

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    Why Me Worry?

    And although this is for a specialized PC that controls a CNC router at his furniture manufacturing factory, it still requires an OS that is considered long obsolete by today's standards. It's no fault of mine or my dad's that the CNC machining software, made a company known as Centroid, decided to make it a DOS version and not a Windows version, even though Windows was available at the time. Also, the CNC router was manufactured during the time that 486 machines with 200MB drives and 640K RAM were abound with DOS as the primary OS on them, explaining why the PLC board that controls the CNC machine is an old 16 bit ISA card and not PCI. I recently had to rebuild the PC because the motherboard burned out and I sure am glad I still had a copy of DOS 6.2 floating around in my collection of old disks and was able to buy a new 486SX mainboard for a few bucks from an online PC parts retailer.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    Place I was working at had a tensile frame pulls a piece of steel wire in half, and measures the force required.

    The software was third party, no source
    the PC and XT 286 with DOS . No hard drive and two 5.25 floppies. All the slots were used up so they had a combination video and printer card. The printer side of the card stopped working and the the software was hard coded to make low level calls to it's graphic hardware and it's obsolete.
    Buggered, new pc, new software package, new interfacing, ?25k for a video card.

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    daveo2000

    I have never heard about MS doing anything to help people on older versions of the OS.

    A friend who works for a fairly large multi-national went overseas to get one of the satellite offices "in line" and found that many of the systems that had been bought had pirate versions of Win 98 on them. This isn't because the company was doing things under the table, it was because the vendor supplied lots (a couple hundred) PCs and neglected to say that the OS was unlicensed.

    My friend contacted MS to set things straight asking to pay for the licenses (NOT asking for software, just paper) to make things legal. MS happily said "Well, we don't sell 98 anymore so we will charge you for XP licenses for your Win98 machines."

    Do you really think that MS will proactively provide XP licenses without recertification and, more importantly, without charge after they no longer support the OS?

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    TheChas

    I work with a lot of systems that run legacy code. We are still running hardware that predates the IBM PC and DOS!

    We cannot get funding to convert the elaborate custom applications over to run on new operating systems.

    Right now, new applications are being written on XP systems. Some of these will need to be in service at least 20 years from now. Should we need to rebuild a hard drive, or make a duplicate system for increased capacity, we will need to be able to install XP!

    I don't make the decisions as to what OS to use, I just get to implement and support it.

    Chas

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    stevenmoulden

    Just pull a new OEM code (never activated of course) from the side of the case since everyone knows that the volume license is the one that's the original legal one!

    Or just become an auto mechanic...they don't mind as much when they have to work on the cars...even on newer ones; they get paid whether you drive a 1985 Isuzu or a 2007 Mustang....

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    deICERAY

    Thaks for all your comments; a further issue for me is that I frequently help people purchase home systems, or upgrade one, and now all I can tell them is they're Vista bound and I won't be going along with them. I'm not buying the upgrade, and I have no desire to 'adapt' to it. XP is as far as I'm going. Linux will be my next leap. It just irritates me no end how cavalier MS is towards everyone, while making millions a day off of us.
    Arrg.

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    w2ktechman

    I was recently in an online course for Vista training. The general consensus after the course was complete (actually, before the last lesson) was that Vista was not going to be an option and almost half of the students had downloaded and installed a Linux distro to try out.
    That is an 'awesome' percentage, especially for people going into trying to learn more about Vista before upgrading.

    Goes to show, MS tightened the screws a bit too much this time round.

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    Deadly Ernest

    No to Vista, if the locals want a cheap Dell etc or anything with Vista, then they can get prepared to ship it back to where they bought it for any technical work. If they build a machine, they'll put on any software you have (transfer over XP etc when upgrading) or Linux if they don't have any software. They won't even load a driver onto a Vista machine for fear the people will claim they busted it.

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    deICERAY

    It just ocurred to me that hackers will keep hacking XP and at some point it will become totally vulnerable because MS will stop supporting it,so it has a limited useful life. I'll be shocked if they continue to issue frequent patches; more likely they will immediately begin to not care so much about an "old" product like XP, and only issue patches and updates for Vista, or Pista as I am going to call it from now on.

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    thumbknuckle

    I never upgraded to XP, preferring the slightly less cumbersome aspects of 2000. As soon as I started reading about Vista, I upgraded to Ubuntu. As far as I can tell, it's robust enough for all but the most computer-challenged. Download the ISO and burn it. You can test drive it without installing a thing.

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    w2ktechman

    If more people did that, even just to try, things in the industry might change (such as better driver support and apps for Linux.

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    fncatsailor

    Gentlemen, gentlemen please! . . . given your level of professionalism I find it bordering on humorous that you have such short memories. How quickly you seem to forget the mass hysteria surrounding the introduction of XP. Within the pages of most web sites, the gurus and tech writers were all crying about the impending fall of western civilization because of Microsoft?s arrogance and ineptitude.
    Hey, wake up and smell the coffee! It?s called change! Get with the program or get left behind. Vista, weather you like it or not, is here to stay . . . . for a little while anyway, as it too shall pass on too some years down the road of progress and change. So make the $most$ of it from the get go. That?s what IT folks do.

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    Why Me Worry?

    because obviously, you lack the technical expertise to make any valid criticisms about Vista. Have you even seen this Fisher Price joke of an O/S called Vista with all the pretty colors, bells, whistles, and practically no functionality? It's pathetically dumbed down and pointless to use and until MS gets their act together and fixes some major issues in it, it won't be touching any of my systems.

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    bart99gt

    Who remembered the 2000 and XP launches. Scores of message boards of people swearing they'd never switch from 95, 98 or 2000!

    6 months later, those same folks were going on about how XP really wasn't all that bad. Now its regarded to be probably the best OS MS has ever released.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    M$ sold 98SE for at least 18 months after XP was released and 98 consistently outsold XP every month even though support for 98 was ending the next month M$ still sold millions of copies of 98 without the need to actually support it and they didn't care as the money was still coming in no matter what was bought.

    M$ is doing exactly the same thing now they are still selling both products though trying to force people to buy Vista but if you walk into a Major Supplier for M$ you can still buy a New Volume License for XP Pro so what's the big deal all about? God even Dell has seen the writing on the wall and is offering XP as an alternative to Vista now.

    Col

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    daveo2000

    Come on HAL, tell us what you REALLY think.
    ]:)

    Say, I heard that you were looking for another gov't contract to support. Can I forward one to you? I hear they are planning an all Vista shop.

    (Edited to explain:
    This isn't being rude. It's a 2001 thing. He is HAL, I am Dave... you know... um... Oh YOU explain it, Col!)

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    How did you get back inside the airlock when you didn't have a spacesuit?

    Would you like a Game of Chess? :^0

    Col ]:)

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    mjwx

    I almost didnt beleive it, I had to check it myself, but of course the XP machine costs $150 more and doesn't come with the HDD upgrade.

    Even when I called our Dell rep he was reluctant to agree to give us XP, instead trying to sell us vista. He only stopped when I asked for a new account rep (I didn't think I asked nicely either, I have a bad habit of yelling at suppliers).

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    daveo2000

    I have always been under the impression that yelling at suppliers was the industry standard way of letting them know that you actually do have an opinion and they should belive it. ]:)

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    Tony Hopkinson

    they roll all our cash up and stuff it in their ears.
    Fish hooking them and taking it back is even more effective.
    Never found one yet who doesn't start co-operating when they see the money going back in my pocket. A little ear wax never hurt anyone.

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    Tig2

    I always thought it was a "chick thing".

    I simply politely observe that they have mistakenly shoved their head up their arses and offer reasonable assistance with the problem.

    And call another vendor from the conference room. While they are still there.

    But I am ALWAYS polite. No yelling.

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    mjwx

    :)

    Maybe that's the problem, you're too polite. It might help if you yelled at your suppliers little bit.

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    w2ktechman

    and I also remember that I liked 2k mostly, but I didnt like XP (too childish looking). But most companies and retail stores DID sell older OS's for several months after the launches. This is because it made sense too. Not many things worked properly in the new OS's, and many people were not convinced of the move quite yet.
    Many of those people ended up moving over after many things were worked out in XP, like Driver support, and Application support.

    With Vista, many places cannot sell older versions of MS OS's, and most others are not offering it as an option. It is still available but very discouraged.

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    daveo2000

    MS is so quick to throw things out on the market that the first release that they sell is really what we called, back in the old days, BETA (at best). SP1 is really RC1 and SP2 is the first that you should consider to be commercially viable.

    A friend of mine changed some hardware on his XP-SP1 machine and got locked out. It wouldn't even let him put in a new activation key. He finally worked it out with an MS tech support guy... it was a bug in SP1. Go figure.

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    Why Me Worry?

    and slept all night outside of Best Buy and other stores. MS is targeting these idiots who needs to have the "latest & greatest" yet know absolutely nothing about the problems with the product they are all mindlessly flocking to buy.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    MICROSOFT = Most Intelligent Customers Realise Our Software Only Fools Teenagers.

    Sounds about right for the Vista Release after all how many adults where in the ques outside the shops come midnight when Vista went on sale?

    Col

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    Absolutely

    6 months later, those same folks were going on about how XP really wasn't all that bad. Now its regarded to be probably the best OS MS has ever released.

    The smallest turd that your neighbor's cat ever shat on your front doorstep is still no better than a turd, shat by your neighbor's cat, on your doorstep.

    When you factor in patches, including "Critical Updates" -- aptly named, given the security breaches the original shipped versions of MS operating systems have all contained since 95 -- it's perfectly fair to say that "the Windows operating system is delivered broken".

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    It would be much better to say that M$ is still developing their product line known as Windows & Office and while still in the early Beta Stage will eventually manage to get it to work unless all their Beta Testers Desert them first and go with something that just works and stop paying M$ for the Beta Product and then for the Technical Support to fix the Broken Software.

    Col
    Edited because the MS Keyboard needs new batteries again and refuses to put the letter SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS s up when I want it to Upper case No Problems but Lower Case if works maybe one in 10 attempts.

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    w2ktechman

    just wireless.
    I have an HP wireless keyboard and it refuses to type E or r (upper case E lower case r) without several attempts. I think it is just a wireless issue with them. It also happens randomly on other letters, and it will always delay the n when typing 'and' (it will always show as adn) and the h the 'the' (shows as teh). I have slowed these words down and paid close attention, and I do type it correctly. Considering it is not a problem on my non-wireless keyboard, I just attributed it to an issue with that wireless keyboard.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    It's was given to me by M$ for being such a nice person and for once not wearing the T Shirt that Reads "In a World without Walls or Fences who needs Windows & Gates" to a Partners meeting. Or something like that anyway, it's actually the fourth one that I've had because they keep breaking well the first 2 times the mouse was the problem then the Keyboard broke a couple of times so in the last year it's been replaced 4 times now.

    Actually it's a pity that Rickk's not around because I could say that M$ doesn't have any Vista Drivers for this product which is the current model or for the Fingerprint reader that I have on the NB again another Microsoft Branded product that comes with a M$ Branded driver CD.

    Actually if it did the same thing all the time it wouldn't be quite so bad but as it's an interment it drives me crazy. It also adds the wrong letter as I go along and I quite often see adn instead of and or teh instead of the. Things like that which it does itself. Of course when I want to type Teh it spits up the as that is a Surgeons name that I go to and do some work for and the sod insists that if it's not his name on the invoice he doesn't need to pay, but when his own computer spits out an invoice with his name spelt wrong and replaced with the instead of Teh he still wants to get paid. :^0

    Col

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    Absolutely

    Their 'Wireless Desktop Elite' keyboard + mouse has been much more reliable for me than Logitech's competing set, which I returned because:
    (1) the mouse would not work more than about 30cm from the wireless receiver
    (2) the wireless receiver, although nifty in re-charging the mouse while not in use, was an annoying, clunky monstrosity that I didn't want on my desk
    (3) Logitech's forum was full of even worse complaints than I experienced while owning that set for ~1 month.

    That said, I think that Microsoft has a demonstrated track record of using their enormous financial resources to provide products that are just barely better in performance than their nearest competitor, squishing that competitor, then providing TOTAL CRAP to The Market. I feel guilty for spending any of my $$ on Microsoft whenever there is a competitor to Microsoft in the same market.

    Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts,

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    Absolutely

    "Broken Software" and I compliment you for the acronym you implied so cleverly. Well done.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    After all M$ sold 98 and ME together and look what happened to ME. They then continued selling 98 while 2000 Pro was available and no one bought 2000 Pro then they continued to sell 98 while XP was available and for the first 18 months of XP being on the market 98 consistently outsold it even though support for 98 was ending very soon.

    At a Partner Meeting ages ago M$ said that they had learnt a lesson from that experience and wouldn't be doing it again.

    Though to be fair they are still selling all versions of XP except Media Centre with Upgrade to Vista if you want to shell out for the shipping and the wholesalers have everything except Media Centre well at least the ones that I deal with do so I think XP going to be around for a long time yet.

    Col

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    daveo2000

    With XP, they could pander to the wishes of the "luddites" that wanted to stay with 98 and sell them copies because if they didn't sell them, people could just install their own using the same license key over and over.

    This time, the public can't do that. Once MS decides to shut down the license servers, that will be that.

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    Why Me Worry?

    and don't be surprised to see pirated copies leaked out of companies that purchased the VLK pack being circulated around to circumvent the entire activation stupidity when MS decided to pull the plug on XP activation. There are cracks readily available for XP activation and one is already available for Vista, as people are preparing for the worst when MS pull the plug on the XP activation server. I am not endorsing or condoning the act of piracy, but if companies want to stick with XP and roll out more XP workstations, how are they supposed to do this otherwise?

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    danglingwrangler

    The IT community REALLY needs to bring this discussion to the consumer before it is too late. The entire ridiculous Vista thing - we all know it. The real list of negatives far exceeds the REAL benefits to the wise consumer.

    Significant public pressure will be the only thing to effect the caviler attitude of Microsoft - if anything will.

    Karl Rove (princess of deception), must have provided Microsoft higher ups a weekend retreat on spin. The Microsoft business model has focused on profit maintenance and almost totally disregarded reliable software for a few years now at least. Many others may argue much longer - the Linux community. My guess is that had something to do with Gates stepping aside from the future daily management of Microsoft, who now will really have to compete like NEVER before against a formidable opponent - GOGGLE !

    Good night ... and good luck !
    Borrowing Keith Oberman's byline

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    Yep

    Tig2

    Looking into alternatives as I have a family that I support and want them to continue to compute.

    We all got new computers before the end of the year. That insures that we have XP and restore options. I have some 98 and NT originals as well and can keep them safe.

    I have been exploring Linux as an alternative and having some great luck with that. I have to do some re-thinking but in general, Linux is being a positive experience.

    You may be able to find a real XP on ebay. That can be a solution.

    I'm just saying "no" to Microsoft. There are too many good alternatives out there.

    Incidentally, Vista may not even support your older hardware, much less your older software.

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    Yup

    w2ktechman

    I bought a system last year just in case as well. But I do find this a bad descision, trying to force everybody onto an unsupported OEM license or Vista.

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    Yep

    CodeBubba

    Tigger,

    I'm not "anti" Vista - but after evaluating it on a machine at the office I'm not interested in putting it on my systems - it doesn't solve any problems for me.

    I own 5 copies of XP - they're staying under lock and key!

    -CB :)

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    TheChas

    This is nothing new.

    Microsoft has been pulling old versions off of the shelf with increasing regularity when a new version is released.

    Actually, this is good business for Microsoft. It allows them to control the support workload and lets them set a clean end date for support.

    Another aspect is the typical consumer. When they go into a store to buy software they typically only buy an older version if it is priced at a deep discount. Most retailers just don't have the shelf space to stock a product that has a limited market.

    You can still buy XP and additional licenses. So, you can still upgrade to XP and wait on Vista.

    Chas

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    TechExec2

    .
    You can still buy Windows XP retail versions here (1).


    "...Microsoft has pulled XP off the shelves of every place I've looked for it, online they've pulled all but the OEM versions, meaning you can no longer upgrade to it. I find that outrageous and manipulative and in the opposite spirit of "support"..."

    It is a waste of time to use reason when it comes to Microsoft. They don't care. No corporation has a conscience, you know. The people who run them might (varies...BillG?...no), but they separate themselves from the corpus corporatus.

    Simply put: Microsoft thinks they can do anything they want. They defy EVERYBODY including governments. You don't really think they give a damn what you or I think, do you?


    "...Do you think it's good business?..."

    It has been so far for them. Microsoft has a very powerful monopoly that the U.S. federal government allows them to keep. Microsoft clears $49 MILLION in profit EVERY SINGLE DAY ($18 BILLION per year). During Friday happy hour, they celebrate another $343 MILLION in profit from people like you and me.


    "...Are we going to have to upgrade all programs? Does it even support older software?..."

    If you upgrade to Vista, yes. A lot of applications have problems on Vista, including older releases of MS Office.


    "...Does this irritate you as much as it irritates me?..."

    Not any more. I am completely calm and at peace now. I am NEVER going to upgrade to Vista, and I am just as happy as I can be about it. I'm FREE! And, I've been using Windows since 1992 (and still am as I type this).

    This is just like getting out of a bad marriage. Once you decide to do it, the world looks so much brighter! :-)

    You have all the power you need to be happy with your computer. If you don't want to upgrade to Vista, and you don't want to upgrade all of your applications, don't. There are other options, just like there are other fish in the sea.

    It is no accident that we have Macintosh and Linux and massive amounts of open source as very good options today. It's up to you to choose.


    -------------------------------

    (1) Windows XP retail versions

    Microsoft Windows XP Professional with SP2 - Retail
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16837116195

    Microsoft Windows XP Home Upgrade with SP2 - Retail
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16837116194

    Windows XP, various versions
    http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/002-5679488-9337636?url=search-alias%3Dsoftware&field-keywords=windows+xp&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go

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    bart99gt

    Woah...calm down!

    Are you still sore that OS/2 didn't catch on?

    Fact is, Microsoft released a product where there was a relative void beforehand. Apart from the various versions of the MacOS, there have been ZERO legitimate (ie., one that actually has a decent chance of getting widespread acceptance) user friendly desktop operating systems even introduced. Mac never caught on universally simply because it was (and still is) an expensive niche product. If you want to talk about price fixing, look no further than Apple. You either sell their product at the price they specify, or you don't sell it at all. I've looked at various retailers and there is NOBODY that discounts Macs. At least MS gives retailers some pricing leeway. If you're one of the conspiracy theorists that thinks MS is out to take over the world or whatever, you don't have to buy their products.

    Linux simply isn't a viable option until someone comes up with a distro that totally eliminates the need to do things on the command line. Your average joe isn't going to tolerate having to deal with a prompt to configure or install an application. This is coming from someone who uses Linux, BTW. I could *possibly* get away with setting up a Linux box for my father, but I surely wouldn't set one up for anyone else in my family.

    I'm not going to feel any sympathy for someone who is still trying to use Office 2000 or Office 97. From the standpoint of someone who works in IT support, there comes a time when you need to upgrade your software, regardless of what your personal feelings are about it. Eventually there comes a time even when 3rd party developers stop supporting an application. Of course, people are quick to forget that *many* Windows 95/98 apps wouldn't work out of the box with 2000 or XP. They had to be patched or some creative workarounds had to be implemented to make them work. And the same thing happened back then...people swore they'd never upgrade to 2000 or XP because some of their 2-3 year old programs wouldn't work with them.

    Hardware wise, I'm not sore that my 8 year old Adaptec SCSI card isn't supported by Vista (and probably never will be). No, manufacturers probably aren't going to write drivers for alot of older hardware. FWIW, my AMD 64 3200+ with 1GB of RAM works fine with Vista. If there's anyone to fault for 1-3 year old hardware not being compatible with Vista, its the hardware manufacturers! They've had more than enough time to write new drivers, IMHO (Creative anyone??). Of course, these companies are in business to sell NEW hardware and not support someone's 5 or 6 year old video card forever.

    Lastly, nobody is putting a gun to someone's head to go out and upgrade to Vista. In fact, if I hadn't gotten a FREE copy of Ultimate at a launch event, I'd still be plugging away with XP.

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    TechExec2

    .
    A little bit. I'm just tired of being manipulated by Microsoft. It's pretty offensive. The capricious DE-activation problems in the Vista WGA have forced me to decide to completely leave Windows on my primary computer. Microsoft's actions with WGA in Vista are very offensive. They sell $44 BILLION in software each year and clear $18 BILLION profit. That's fine. There may be a piracy problem, but it's the kind of problem I would SEEK to have. It certainly isn't necessary to put hundreds of millions of legitimate customers at risk.


    "...Linux simply isn't a viable option until someone comes up with a distro that totally eliminates the need to do things on the command line..."

    I don't know. I can do most things in the GUI with KDE (Fedora 6). I use the command line freely, so I really cannot say if there is anything significant lacking in the KDE GUI.

    ---

    I think it's fine if you want to run Vista. Vista (RC2) runs on my hardware also, complete with Aero Glass. I'm just not going to accept the WGA DE-activation nonsense. I don't have to. So, I won't.

    I had an attitude when I made that post. I'm OK. Really. :-)

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    deICERAY

    My major point remains that it is selfish and customer UNsupportive to summarily pull all copies of their OS's off the market, forcing you to buy Vista for anything new. It was never that way, period. I can still buy older versions of almost any software you can think of, and you used to be able to that with MS, and I think it's irresponsible to act this way. They are the overwhelming choice in the entire world for PC OS's, so why act like software nazi's?
    Now people all over the world will either
    a. hold off on upgrades
    b. consider Linux
    c. consider Macs
    d. all of the above, PLUS regard MS as an insensitive corporate monopoly (no surprise there) and maybe send a message to them and simply not upgrade
    e. (choice comes down the road) having held off until support/upgrades have vanished from microsoft.com for XP, they will HAVE to go to some other OS.
    It's all bad. It's all too bad, because all they had to do was business as usual, and eventually people would come around willingly - now they will only come around grudgingly and with attitude and with a strong desire to 'get out' of the MS stranglehold.
    OK, so that was more than one major point; consider it a patch to my first sentence.

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    bart99gt

    I don't recall 98 or 2000 sitting on the shelves for very long after 2000 and XP (respectively) were introduced.

    Of course it could have been a retailer decision to haul in copies of XP, since it appears that some retailers (mainly online) are still selling what copies of XP they have left in stock. Whatever is on the shelves of a store is actually the property of the retailer, so ultimately its up to them to keep it on the shelves or not.

    Eventually you MUST upgrade your OS or entire computer. Companies stop writing compatible software for older operating systems and hardware support dwindles.

    Let's step back and take a look at the big picture here. MS is marketing this product to the mass market, not just a small niche of consumers who might happen to keep every single computer they've ever owned for the past 5+ years and need an OS for each. Most people aren't going to run out and upgrade their OS just for the sake of doing so (well, unless you were one of the unlucky folks to buy a computer with Me on it). Most people will only experience Vista for the first time when they retire their old PC and buy a new one that already has Vista loaded on it. These kinds of people don't know and don't care that their local computer store or Microsoft (whatever the case may be) pulled XP off the shelves a month after the launch of Vista.

    BTW, it isn't that hard finding a legal or semi-legal copy of XP. There are probably millions of unused keys on PCs across the country because a business has a VLK copy of XP and never used (or activated) the key that was on the sticker of the 1000 PCs they bought last month. I'm not going to debate the specific legality of this, but anytime I scrap an old PC that has a serial key on it, I write it down. MS probably would poo-poo on this, but as far as I'm concerned, "ownership" has changed hands (albeit to the dump or recycler).

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    jusovsky

    Why this hysteria over Windows Vista being pushed by few retialers? Microsoft doesn't call the shots, and if said retailers really want to sell XP, Microsoft will gladly sell them more licenses. I verified this with Ingram Micro, D&H distributing, and even Microsoft Licensing sites this morning. It has nothing to do with Microsoft "pulling" anything from the shelves.
    You'd probably be a happier fellow if you removed Microsoft's nefarious Vista upgrade plans from your conspiracy theories. While you're at it, accept that JFK was shot by Oswald, the moon isn't made of cheese and that we really did land on it, and the Republicans are not trying to read your brain waves, so you can stop wearing that hat made of aluminim foil.

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    apotheon

    "Microsoft doesn't call the shots, and if said retailers really want to sell XP, Microsoft will gladly sell them more licenses."

    Imagine for a moment that Microsoft wants to sell Vista, instead of XP (this is obviously the case). Now imagine for a moment that you're a retailer. Where are you going to get copies of XP to sell if you want to sell them, but Microsoft doesn't want you to do so? What are you going to do about shrinking profits on Vista, as well, if Microsoft doesn't give you the same (lower) wholesale prices because you won't replace the XP stock on your shelves with Vista?

    Are you entirely unaware of how the software industry actually works (particularly when dealing with the major software vendors, like Microsot)?

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    rkuhn

    Now that this thread is a whole one month old, you've all been proven wrong.

    Most retailers and some OEM's have, are, and will be bringing XP back.

    So, any apologizes? Apparently, all along you could buy XP and not Vista and apparently those companies (including MS) are being customer friendly.

    End of story...ya'll are WRONG!

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    Pringles86

    Well... Maybe they shouldn't have done it in the first place.

    They are just now coming to their senses about it.

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    apotheon

    I pointed out that if Microsoft refused to sell XP to OEM vendors, the vendors wouldn't be able to resell them. That has nothing to do with whether or not Microsoft decided to sell them copies of XP after all.

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    Deadly Ernest

    and agitated for them to put XP back on the shelf, the choice wouldn't be there. DELL and co only make XP available now because they were losing too many sales through people wanting XP not Vista. It's called a consumer strike back. Or buying power.

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    w2ktechman

    Dell is offering XP because of demand for it. Their website for customer feedback was flooded with alternate OS's besides Vista. Mainly XP and Linux. This is why Dell is now offering both.

    If everyone was just happy and bought up machines with Vista, do you honestly believe that XP would suddenly start flowing again?

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    rkuhn

    Here's your quote:

    "Imagine for a moment that Microsoft wants to sell Vista, instead of XP."

    From that, you are correct, but then you went on to say:

    "this is obviously the case."

    And then to top it off, you said:

    "Are you entirely unaware of how the software industry actually works"

    OK, so you never did actually say MS stopped but like always, you heavily insinuate and suggest which I believe serves only to mislead the reader and you do it on purpose.

    Once again, you are wrong and have a hard time admitting it.

    MS may have started down the wrong road as far as making XP hard to get a hold of. But a few things.

    1) It was always available
    2) They corrected their actions based on feedback from customers

    That kind of behavior isn't of a mean spirited, greedy corporation. That kind of behavior to me looks like they responded to customer feedback and responded in a pro-customer service kind of way.

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    breathoffrost002

    I got some free versions of linspire, its a nice looking OS with some decent features, and i was able to get it loaded into my system with all the stability you could want


    but

    none of my games worked, it was pretty much net only, and there are plug ins that you can buy to make it work with most windows compatable objects, but then your shelling out like $150 in cnr

    so far vista has been alright, i got it free, its very nice looking, although i did spent a good 12 hours worth of time downloading and installing/reinstalling/reinstalling all the drivers for my MoBo and GFX card, and things still have some issues

    i would say to anyone considering vista, if youve got XP, hold off untill SP1 comes out for vista, unless you have a moderate to high technical knowledge and a good ability to scour the net for working drivers

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    apotheon

    I'm not sure how you could consider the fact that a Linux distribution isn't a Microsoft Windows release cause for a "but". If your only purpose is to run software designed for MS Windows, you should stick with MS Windows. If you want a stable, secure platform that has software of its own, however, you might want to look elsewhere.

    Your problem wasn't software support on Linspire. Your problem was looking for MS Windows software support somewhere other than MS Windows.

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    rkuhn

    Throw away all your MS software and MS supported software and go 100% open source.

    Oh boy, that'll speed up the masses converting to open source not to mention virtually eliminate the odds of any business doing so.

    You live in a dream world...

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    Deadly Ernest

    Because MS change their instructional code set with each Windows version most third party software, and some MS software, isn't compatible between versions. So you need to get new copies and shell out more bucks.

    In XP most of my older Windows software and games won't run, yet they work perfectly in Linux in either WINE or Cedega.

    I have friends at Uni who play NWN and a few other on-line games, the games are written for Windows based systems; yet they all say they see a better game performance on Linux using Cedega than on XP.

    I know many small businesses that are converting to Linux as it's cheaper for them to buy Crossover to run their few critical Windows applications in than buying the latest versions because their existing versions aren't compatible with Vista.

    So it all comes down to how much you want to pay and how much trouble you want to go through is 5 or 6 years when the next Windows version comes out.

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    rkuhn

    You would like most people to believe you don't you?

    Yes, some programs were "broken" when XP came about, mostly for security reasons. Just like some programs are "broken" when Vista came out.

    The numbers are much smaller than you imply. I can only think of one (1) program I have that I never got to work in XP when it did work in Win 98 and that is a game called "Shadow President".

    Needless to say, patches come out to correct issues and yes, occasionally people have to update. Take the whole Quicken issue at hand with Vista (Intuit's fault not MS...btw).

    But 9 times out of 10 the software that gets "broken" probably is so old it should be replaced anyways.

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    Deadly Ernest

    I don't have Vista at home, not prepared to waste the money, but helping someone else try to get their software working on Vista on two machines, upgrading from Windows 2000 and Win 98:

    MS Office 2000 - would not install

    MYOB - would not run properly, kept locking up.

    4 year old colour laser printer no drivers in Vista or from the manufacturer (QMS brand I think from memory).

    4 year old HP scanner no Vista drivers and no default drivers that allowed it to work properly.

    Special Dvorak keyboard drivers wouldn't install, and the default MS Dvorak conversion software didn't set it up as a Dvorak keyboard either. Need to map each key to get it right.

    Games that wouldn't install or run - Ceasar 3, Doom 95, Diablo, Diablo 2, Rise of the Triad, and several other games I can't remember the name of. I know I couldn't get some of these games to run properly in XP on my system either. Load an emulator and they would work, but that shouldn't be needed.


    Businesses need to be able to readily access documents from ten to fifteen years ago as that's how long some are required to be available for legal reasons, the majority have a minimum life span of 8 years - current tax year plus 7 years for tax laws.

    Office 2003 and 2007 do NOT readily open Word 6 or Word 2a or Excel 4 documents by just clicking on them. Yet Open Office does - seems they're better programmers than the MS ones.

    Yes, sometimes you do need to update the format of files, in most cases you just add extra capability and that's stored as extra code at the start or end of the file. But when you have to make a significant change, it's industry standard practice to give the file a different extension thus the changes to .jpg became .jpeg - this is to allow the system to know which is the which format. MS don't believe in doing this and just keep .doc and then arbitrarily stop supporting the older versions without making a public announcement. The companies that have older Word and Excel documents are just 'expected' to know they need to convert them to be able to use the latest versions of Office to read them.


    The problem with Quicken is MS's fault as MS has changed the instructional code set required to access key aspects of the OS and transfer commands to the peripherals and internal components.

    A well written OS means people can write software that's compatible with the OS and those same commands will work with the next version of the OS - a printer command should always be the same in every version of the OS, but not in Windows or other MS applications.

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    w2ktechman

    that the very next OS upgrade should not run large amounts of programs from the previous version?
    If it is built around the previous version, it should be able to run all of the programs properly.
    The difference would mostly be when a new OS is re-written completely, like win9x platform to WinNT platform. Or from 32-bit to 64 bit OS. If the security model changes, they should offer help to SW manufacturers who already pay them to be certified, to make the changes needed before the OS is released.

    As for this comment
    "Throw away all your MS software and MS supported software and go 100% open source."

    Why not? It can be done! It will not be an overnight thing, because most people are not interested in change. But, even if I can help people realize there is an alternative by using Linux instead, others that respect me will listen.
    In the last 2 weeks, I have given out 2 Linux cd's to normal Win users (live cd's). 1 person has not tried it yet, the other said they were going to install it and use it on a machine that they were going to scrap. That person tried the live cd and decided it was worth looking into moving to (PCLinuxOS '07 beta).

    But then again, people seek me for advice because they know and respect my opinion, something that you obviously know nothing about. Almost all of your posts are crap, and your attitude is shameful for an IT pro (if you actually are).

    Just because you are a MS fanboy, probably because you have 2 or 3 stocks in MS, is no reason to mislead people into being fools with bad advice.

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    Neon Samurai

    Apath dared to mention FOSS so we'd best take that single point to an extreme.

    In the case of this comment; your a troll

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    w2ktechman

    Edited due to wrong posting

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    Deadly Ernest

    it's available from www.winehq.com this works like a Windows emulator.

    Scouring the net for drivers would assume that people are writing drivers for Vista, I'm not sure many are doing that yet.

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    SO.CAL Guy

    there are plenty of driver for vista

    i tried wine and i don't care what any one says you get a perfomace hot explsley with games and wine is an emulator not works like

    and emulators suck

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    Deadly Ernest

    I checked the manufacturer's websites, they don't have Vista drivers for my gear, to go to Vista means a new printer, and new scanner, new accounting software, new version of MS Office, and then I also lose a lot of my old files as Office 2007 doesn't open all the older MS Doc formats.

    Why should I have to replace perfectly good hardware and software just to use Vista. no thanks, it's too costly.

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    rkuhn

    1) Please list and be specific your periphals. I'm interested in why NONE of them have Vista drivers.

    2) Office 2007 most certainly can open old file formats. There are already converters out for that.

    3) Why does upgrading to Vista force you to upgrade to Office 2007?

    FUD, more FUD, and damn lies.

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    w2ktechman

    Hey, have you tried Off03 on Vista???
    Then shut the F up!
    I have and it errored often, on not 1 but 3 systems. It was not until upgrading to Off07 when they would actually work as supposed to.
    So, maybe you should try it before saying anything. Just because MS says it works does not actually mean it does, or havent you learned that yet? If not, Why not???

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    apotheon

    Your stunning argument is that Office 2007 is compatible with older file formats because of "converters" . . . ?

    You've got to be joking. Really. That's just . . .

    Man. I don't even know what that is. Pathetic, I guess.

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    rkuhn

    Yes, actually I have.

    I got Office 2003 up and running on Vista beta without any problems.

    Yes, you're right, I don't use Vista just yet. One, I'm happy with XP at home and two, we haven't tested Vista at work with our ERP software just yet.

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    rkuhn

    Ok, so you're a huge anti-bloat fanboy.

    Tell me this. How exactly is any office suite ever going to support previous file formats dating back years and years without adding bloat to the suite?

    Periodically, file format changes become a necessity whether you agree with that or not.

    With Office 2007, yes there are converters in order to work through a transition period where older versions of Office will coexist.

    There are reasons why the world isn't using the same file formats that we used 10 years ago. And there are reasons we won't be using the same file formats 10 years from now.

    But, along your line of thinking, all software should either A) never change file formats or B) be bloated to **** and back so that they can support all formats dating back to the beginning of time.

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    NickNielsen Moderator

    Office 2007 most certainly can open old file formats. There are already converters out for that.

    Why would I want my office suite to open old file formats using internal bloat [bcksp][bcksp][bcksp][bcksp][bcksp][bcksp]converters instead of external converters? Gee, I don't know...

    How exactly is any office suite ever going to support previous file formats dating back years and years without adding bloat to the suite?

    Don't change the file format between versions. WordPerfect has managed to do that for two decades and is a better, far more flexible app than M$ w0rd will ever be. IMO, and yes, I already know yours is different.

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    w2ktechman

    Office 03 installs fine, if you open Word and type a few characters, it appears to work fine.
    Outlook sets up fine.
    USING either program for a little while will crash it or hang it.
    all problems solved when migrated to 07.

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    apotheon

    1. NickNielsen already covered the question of how to avoid bloat for supporting older documents -- don't change the file format every two or three years just to force upgrades. File formats do need to change now and then, but not the way Microsoft changes its formats. Besides that, something as critical as document backward compatibility isn't exactly "bloat".

    2. You say "But, along your line of thinking, all software should either A) never change file formats or B) be bloated to **** and back so that they can support all formats dating back to the beginning of time." You seem to have missed the fact that there are a number of office suites out there with a tiny fraction the installed size of MS Office that not only support fifteen years or so of legacy file formats, but actually support fifteen years or so of Microsoft Office file formats -- well beyond what MS Office itself supports.

    edit: In any case, I just find it astounding that you try to say that MS Office supports older file formats by pointing out the existence of external converters. Como se huh? That's like saying you have a .22 LR rifle that'll take .308 Winchester rounds, as long as you use a separate rifle, or (for a more accurate analogy) mill the bullets down to about a .22 inch diameter and seat them in a .22 LR shell casing yourself.

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    Deadly Ernest

    OK here's an incomplete list and some other comments

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    Tig2

    And recall that not all of us are in the US. As such, hardware may be dramatically different but still need to work, regardless.

    While I understand that we are more and more a global society, it is critical to recall that we are different people.

    When we signed up to this board, it was with the knowledge that we would be exposed to people of different culture and language. To expect everyone here to be US born and bred is fallacy in the extreme.

    I just begin by assuming that everyone who chimes in on a discussion has a truth to tell. For those who have only flames, I am saddened and disappointed. I thought better of you only to have you prove to me that valuing your opinion is a waste of my time.

    Not everyone you disagree with is an idiot, Rickk. If you would just can the rhetoric, I believe you would discover as much.

    I took the time to try to understand where you were coming from. Perhaps you could learn to extend that courtesy to others.

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    Neon Samurai

    But it's a thin layer emulating the hardware only. WINE can be a little laggy though and there are other emulators that really take a performance hit. My WINE based Google Earth runs fine.

    Now, I may have recommended Cedega for gaming but WINE should do well also depending on the resource demand of the game.

    And just to keep the Windows fanatics ryled up; Longbow2 written for win95 runs flakey on winXP even with 95 or 98 "compatability". I've also got a friend asking me to see if I can get his own win95 game running under XP though I think they will be putting a win98 box together for it.

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    Tig2

    Is DOSBox an option? I have used it successfully to work with older software.

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    Neon Samurai

    Janes Longbow 1 was a dos flight sim (technical chopper to be specific) and would probably have a chance with DOS compatability or the option to boot to a dos environment (Is that still there, I used it last with winNT).

    Janes Longbow 2 (still not replacable by any other chopper flight sim option that I've found) is pure GUI so I think a Dos box would be of little help since it's looking for the win95 graphic environment.

    The othe game I'm going to have a go at getting to run is an old win95 Animaniacs game which is also a graphic environment.

    Incase I'm mistaken though, is the DosBox option just a windows dos environment or is this something different that I may not have yet stumbled across?

    Your comment to Rikk was well spoken. I suspect he started with the good intentions of pointing out true FUD against Windows when posted but if that was the starting point, he's digressed into the very troll he claims to have been responding too. I thought I simply taking things too personally when he lost credability in my view; I'm glad to know I'm not just being overly sensative.

    And now for something completely different... (a man with three buttocks)

    Rikk; don't get me wrong, I keep saying you post some great comments and that includes the "what's your network" discussion you started. As you say though "I call it like I see it" to which I still prepose that how "I see it" (er.. you see it) has been skewed by your own bigotry and personal mission to make life misserable for anyone who mentions anything FOSS without end notes, explicit references points and detailed statistical analysis including all calculating formula.

    Now I'm still going to take each of your comments indavidually in an effort to not let my opinion of a seporate comment currupt the potential value of a current comment. Hostile comments, however, will be treated with the respect they show and are due as a result. You get what you give and I hope it's a load of great information where you give and verbal "curby" where you detract.

    I hope Ubuntu continues to treat you well and I hope one day you get off your high horse and pull the MS pole of rage out of your @ss. You'll find that some of us heretics are actually very intelligent people with much information to offer and a much more open view of software than you give credit for.

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    rkuhn

    Thanks for the politically correct BS speech.

    Who expects us all to be from the US? Not me.

    And who said I believe anyone that disagrees with me is an idiot? Thanks for speaking for me and putting words in my mouth.

    It's not just me spreading rhetoric. I will never extend courtesy to anyone who relentlessly attacks MS for no purpose other than for sport.

    Lastly, the amount of mindless lemming like behavior on TR is mind numbing. Open source has become (for some) a cause and NOT a technical debate.

    It's to those that I primarily target my comments to.

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    rkuhn

    If you have XP but are replacing your PC, go the Vista route.

    The OEM will be installing hardware/software that has been tested and will work with Vista. So there shouldn't be any problems there unless you are installing older hardware/software on the new PC.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/tech-news/?p=462&tag=nl.e019

    I'll not mention any names as the person concerned knows who he is. :^0 :^0 :^0

    Col

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    Neon Samurai

    "
    i got it free
    "

    Free as in paid with it in the cost of a new machine, free as in given too you form work to learn or free as in "uh.. it turned up ;)" purely curiousity though so don't fee like your in a fight.

    I'm with you on the last bit definately; Vista will be better after SP1 when full driver and third party software support mature.

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    TUFOP

    Couldn't have said it better myself. I was at the same event but had to leave about an hour before it ended and never got the copy of Vista I went for. I guess you got to play by the rules. I can't go into a Toyota showroom and say give me a brand new 2002 whatever.

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    Deadly Ernest

    Over the last 12 months, I've tried a lot of Linux packages, and in SimplyMEPIS the only command line function I've used in the last f our months is to run a PING command, and you have to do that in the command line in Windows. I know one of the Linux packages for network management is all GUI and does it from the GUI, so I don't have to use the command line, but I prefer to do it from the command.

    Most Linux distribution also support a lot of the older hardware, and if they don't any driver written for earlier versions of the same Linux branch will work, in every case I've tried they have.

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    bart99gt

    I'm actually running Ubuntu as we speak.

    I'm technically savvy enough to use Linux. I've gotten fairly comfortable with it so far as basic computer usage is concerned. However, there's no way I could hand a computer loaded with Linux to most of my family members though, and most of them aren't technically ignorant by any stretch.

    Linux isn't ready for prime time yet. Its a heck of a lot better than it was even 2-3 years ago, but there are some important aspects of it that are still way over the head of your average computer user.

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    jmgarvin

    What is way over the head of average users?

    I'm curious because the install is cake (Ubuntu installs from CD while your OS is still running) and everything is setup out of the box, including and office suite.

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    Deadly Ernest

    both have a very Windowsie like look and feel. Ubuntu uses the Gnome desktop by default, while SimplyMEPIS uses the KDE desktop by default. I've installed this on a few machines for some very tech illiterate people, and they've had no trouble switching over. Just ensure their commonly used programs are easy to find, ie desktop icons if possible - clicking on an icon is all they need to know.

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    Tig2

    I have had the best luck with Kubuntu but am thinking that PCLinuxOS will be better.

    My end user is a 76 year old who is very bright but a total novice. She was "raised" on Windows.

    Linux may not be altogether ready for the corporation- although there are those that argue compellingly that RHEL is ready- it is a possible alternative for those home users whose functionality requirements are different.

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    Brian.Crawford

    grow up, no difference than any business, when a products done it's done. when was the last time you could order/buy a new year 2000 vehicle or a 5year old TV

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    I continue to day to buy M$ DOS without a problem. Apparently M$ AU is selling about 50 copies per month without any support so actually M$ is still offering DOS as a product that they are selling and their Legal Department is encouraging this practise to continue.

    As for the other Big dead OS that I support from M$ NT4 I'm forced to buy a copy of XP Pro and use the Backward License to install it though to be fair to M$ they did give me a CD & Product Key for NT4 when I pointed out that I needed this product for a specialised application that doesn't run on anything newer than NT4.

    Provided that I keep buying XP Pro Licenses M$ doesn't give a dam how many times that I use the NT4 Install CD.

    But I'm wondering what will happen when Vista finally becomes the Norm and what version I'll be forced to buy to install NT4 then and much more importantly How Much will it cost?

    Col

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    They charge you for the Laser Sighting equipment that goes on the Plant and all around the work site and then Give You the Software that enables you to get the earthworks to within 2 cm's of the design.

    Apparently this is for such a small market that they are no longer interested in supporting the software so maybe when I have the time I could Port it to Linux or something like that.

    Or take the easy way out and just forget to tell M$ about it any more.

    After all this is On Site without any Internet Access so there are no security risks as it only drives the Laser equipment. The software now is a Give Away to allow the continued sale of the laser equipment. The problem here is you can not buy what isn't made. :^0

    But I would just love to be there when some Legal Git for M$ arrives to audit their software, being earthmover's they are likely to deck the guy then run over him in his car with a Big Excavator or Bulldozer and that's when they are being nice. If they get upset I'm sure they would want to see what was stronger 2 D10 Cats going in opposite directions or the Legal Git for M$ tied between the two dozer's. :0

    At one of these places I was asked to look at a computer to repair it and it wasn't in the Site Office apparently the person who used it got slightly upset with it and parked a 40 ton excavator track on top of the tower. Of course they just said that they threw it out an failed to mention that there was this Bloody Great Big Excavator currently sitting on top of it.

    Col

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    Neon Samurai

    I've heard it's still alive and well in the embedded world also. Embedded Linux, embedded Dos or something developed in house seem to be the norms these days.

    As for my own license; Dos boots in under a second on an AMD 1.9 ghz. Now if only I could think of something remotely useful to do with that perfectly tuned command.com since I've yet to rebuild any software on it and can't route the VMware Server com port to a telnet deamon.

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    Tig2

    I can purchase brand new parts for a 20+ year old vehicle. But then, so can you.

    And I just bought a "Titled as New" 2002 Saturn with warranty. Beautiful car. Has a little pink ribbon on her nose.

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    rkuhn

    But not new.

    You can't call Saturn and tell them you want a brand new, factory built 2002 Saturn. Not going to happen.

    His point is still valid.

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    Tig2

    However I can buy new 20 year old car parts. I dare say that I may be able to purchase new 10 year old computer parts.

    New meaning "never before purchased or used."

    I think that the key point is that not every end user wants the newest, biggest, baddest, whatever. They want reliability and they want familiar. They want dependability. And they want to know that they can find support when they need it.

    I also think that we techie types think on a different plane than the average end user. We see technology in a different light because we will use it in different ways. We tend to want to explore the length and breadth of new technology to see and understand what we can use it for.

    The beauty of a world that includes a variety of different technologies is that we can custom fit solutions that are truly based on customer need.

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    rkuhn

    Other than to be misleading then, why did you say ""Titled as New" 2002 Saturn"?

    You were either intentionally misleading or your analogy is false.

    BTW, there are still plenty of "brand new parts" out there for free for older versions of Windows. So, once again your analogy is false.

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    Tig2

    Brian said that you couldn't buy new old parts. I say that you can. Either way, flawed analogy or not, the fact is that you CAN indeed purchase new parts that are old.

    Your point to software is equally valid. There is a lot of older technology available, much of it free, for those who would prefer it. As I said above, the beauty of a world that includes a variety of technologies is that we can custom fit solutions that are truly based on customer need.

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    apotheon

    It's obvious rickk is just "playing stupid" because he wants anyone that disagrees with his opinions to be Wrong -- thus, he refuses to get your point.

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    w2ktechman

    was never registered to anyone except the dealer, and it was in all purposes in the new condition. whether or not it was the newest model created is beside the point.

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    Tig2

    And the ability to do so is not unusual.

    I just happened to luck into a very sweet deal on my new Saturn. She is a beautiful little car that is no longer produced- 2002 was the last model year for my Saturn.

    I think that I am going to have to send Palmetto a new hard hat. It seems that any response to Rickk is the equivalent of feeding a troll.

    Can we take away his birthday or something?

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    rkuhn

    Apparently, you have a reading comprehension problem or you interpret only what you want to hear.

    He said, "when was the last time you could order/buy a new year 2000 vehicle or a 5year old TV".

    No where in that did he mention anything about parts. He said a vehicle or a TV. Nothing about parts.

    Yet, you continue to pound away just to prove a point that doesn't exist.

    Once again, as the crowd roars in hating me, I'm only pointing out the obvious and the truth.

    Go ahead, spin this anyway you want, but you're still wrong. I imagine you'll go back to calling me names or accusing me or this, that or the other, but again, he didn't mention anything about parts.

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    rkuhn

    No, the analogy is wrong because it is based on a false premise.

    No where were "parts" mentioned.

    Re-read the post.

    But once again, you and your "friends" are taking the journalistic liberty to spin something to suit your needs instead of working with the facts.

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    rkuhn

    Oh Dear Lord!

    We're sinking to all new levels.

    Never registered, blah blah blah.

    You sound like Bill Clinton and "it depends what is is".

    Ok, so imagine this. HP overstocks a product with Windows 98 on it. They find it in a warehouse 10 years later and you can still buy it.

    Yeah! Just about as ridiculous as your interpretation of her statement in an apparent attempt to bail your friend even when she's wrong.

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    Tig2

    Was a commodity.

    Please stop this. You have good points but the ranting does you no credit nor does it allow anyone to see your side.

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    Tig2

    You can beat me up all you wish to. There aren't many people here who fail to recognise you as the troll you are.

    You are attacking people for no purpose and bringing nothing to the table. You attack anyone and everyone who tries to bring a level of reason to any technology discussion.

    Listen up, sonny. You are in no way, shape, or form a "technology professional". You are an *** and you obviously wish to continue to be one.

    You go on poking people. I hope you do the same sh*t in real life as it would give me the comfort of knowing that someone will eventually clean your clock.

    You are an embarrassment to the profession.

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    w2ktechman

    you are either really stupid, or just like to hear your keyboard clicking. You seem to think that you are convincing people of something, but instead you are looking more the a$$ than anything else. You have deluded your brain into thinking that you are important or something. That crack pipe has really tweaked you boy!
    Ok, lets look at what I wrote, c'mon scroll up a bit. Ok, I commented merely on how I interpreted Tiggers comment. I did not include anything else. So I sunk to low levels, how exactly? Only in your warped mind young'un.

    I will say however that the HP and 98 thing is in the same arena, although SW changes faster than autos.

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    w2ktechman

    And I would doubt that anyone gives him credibility at all. So for being beaten up, I think not. See it takes reason to win, and, well, Rickk has none. I think that he just likes to instigate crap honestly, thats why I do not usually reply to his posts, nor read them. But even I get bored sometimes and want to see what humorous items that Rickk posts. After all, circus clowns need attention too! Besides, it gives me a good chuckle to know that Palmetto, well, nuff said.

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    Deadly Ernest

    Rickk,

    The difference with Ford and MS is that Ford didn't try to push the consumers into the Edsel by withdrawing all other models; MS did; and continue to do so in less obvious manners. Ford accepted they did a lemon and fixed it with a new model that WAS better. MS try to hide the lemon under a new paint job and a few extra bells and whistles - the engine still sucks.

    Windows 3.11 got rave reviews by everyone who saw it, so did NT at first.

    TT,

    Trolls don't have birthdays, they're created by super compressing garbage until it's super dense. You're at a serious disadvantage in this argument, he's dragging you down to his level of idocy so he can beat you due to his higher experience.

    BTW In the mid 1970s I worked for a company that finally got around to clearing out its old warehouse. In the back of the building we found over 3,000 spares parts that were brand new, still in their original wrappings for cars from 1925 through to 1936 - brand new parts for old cars. Must have been some sort of record at the time. Most of the cars they fitted were no longer on the road anywhere. Near as we can figure they must locked the back rooms up prior to WW2 and later forgot about them when other things were stacked in front of the doors.

    General
    My biggest concern with Windows for years has been their refusal to clean up the kernel and close the back doors that are utilised by the trojan and virus programs. despite that, I still supported them until about a year ago when they forced WGA down our throats and started screwing over machines on a regular basis because it's faulty and they won't fix it properly.

    About seven years ago they put forward a concept for their future of computing which got heavily bagged as being to draconian, now they're introducing it bit by bit. They want to set up the Internet so every message you send is checked through their clearing house to ensure all your software is registered and they get a slice from everyone's pie. Look up the past discussions on Secure Computing and Palladium.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    About 25 years ago now one army base was closed down and as they where clearing it out they found 300 Pre WW11 BSA M20 Motorcycles still in their original packing crates unassembled and still wrapped in Grease Proof paper.

    These Pre WW11 Motor Cycles when registered had to be registered as New as they had never previously been registered and to make matters worse because of the age of them they where considered as Classic Motor Cycles and attracted a greater Tax component than what a new off the floor modern Motor Cycle would ever attract. I bought 5 of these when they came up for auction and when I moved north I had to sell them off 2 where out of their crates assembled and running as show Bikes while the other 3 where still unpacked and remained unassembled.

    From a Legal Prospective these 1930 something Motor Cycles when first registered where considered as NEW and there is no other way to consider them. Of the 3 that I sold unassembled and still in their original crates they where sold as New and no one would accept that they where anything but that New Old Stock that had never been pulled out of their packing crates.

    The ex army M20's looked great beside my much older restored M21 and sidecar. Now I stick to fast fun to ride Motor Cycles and while I would willing buy a 1950 something Vincent HRD Black Shadow if I could ever find one it's the only current Pre Classic that I would now be interested in looking at.

    Col

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    :)

    rkuhn

    Pretty funny how everyone has to come up with the most extreme examples to support TT's point of view but no one can come up with a normal, everyday example.

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    NickNielsen Moderator

    One or two of my former students work in the local office store. They were directed to pull all Windows XP off the shelf for return the evening before the Vista release date.

    TechExec2 provided some links. You might also check around at local computer stores (not the chains). They may still have some XP available.

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    Deadly Ernest

    means it's now legal to use pirate copies as you can't be taking away any sales since they aren't willing to sell any more XP anyway.

    MS=SB

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    CharlieSpencer

    Try to find a 2006 car. Try buying "last season's" clothes after the new lines are stocked. My wife hated it when a restaurant changed the recipe of her favorite entree. There's nothing new about this.

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    deICERAY

    As I recall, when WinXP came out you could still buy ME, 2000, even Windows 3.1 in stores and online. No, I believe this is a sea change at MS, taking hold of the enormous monopulative powers they have and abuse and will continue to get more controlling and exclusive and insistent until we all move over to an open system and leave them in the dust. Linux, anyone?

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    If you can't find a 2006 car, it's because they've all been sold; the manufacturers certainly did not require all the dealerships to return all unsold 2006 cars as soon as the 2007 rolled out! I always buy last season's clothes from clearance racks, but prefer the styles from the late 40's (buy vintage patterns from ebay).

    But who cares if M$ wants to shoot themselves in the foot. The biggest difference in Vista & XP, besides compatibility problems, is stronger copyright control & more control over activation processes. Then they slapped on a new coat of paint and some extra chrome to bait people into their trap. That just means there will be a greater availability of pirated copies of XP Pro Corp for those who care to look & Linux is looking better every day.

    So what if you don't get those regular patches - most of the patches open up more holes than they fixed. Just get a good firewall (or 2) and learn to use some of the advanced blocking features. And as for support, how much support have any of you every gotten from M$? If you can ever get anyone who knows a bean from a butthole, they'll refer you back to the manufacture of your computer or the store where you bought it. The first time I hosed the activation on my legal XP installation (I changed something that caused it to prompt for reactivation - immediately - not 30 days or even 7 days grace)on a Friday afternoon and the 800 # for M$ activation gave me a recording that they were closed & to call back during regular business hours on Monday morning - I was done with M$ controlling my personal possessions!

    Leave the butterfly in it's cocoon & let's all give a warm welcome to the penguin!

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    MavMin2

    That is why I am planning on using Ubuntu for machines that are too old for XP or VISTA. My church was given a lot of PCs for our school and MS did give us a W2K disk for them. However, I have far more machines than I need and people continue to give them to me but I cannot legally use the W2K disk so it looks like Ubuntu is my best recourse so I can give these PCs to families that can't afford a PC but need to gain some experience or their kids need to do schoolwork.

    I desperately need a XP disk by Saturday and it is ticking me off that they are not available.

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    XP

    MavMin2

    I just returned from Frys that still had some copies on the self. There were three upgrades and I bought two. They had about a dozen of the full version. One of my friends said that if you ask the clerks they may have the XP in the back and will sell it to you.

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    Deadly Ernest

    runs KDE as default, it also has some easier access to the more commonly used administrator functions. Security wise, it's slightly better as it asks you set set up a different password for the root access during the install.

    SimplyMEPIS even uses the Ubuntu repositories for many of the package updates.

    edited to add.

    The KDE interface is more Windows style than the Gnome and I find people used to Windows can migrate to KDE relatively easily, but sometimes have trouble with moving to Gnome.

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    MavMin2

    Thanks for the tip. I'll look into this further.

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    Tig2

    Also have a look at PC Linux OS for people who are accustomed to Windows look and feel and are not technical.

    SimplyMEPIS is also a good one. There are many more based on what you want to do.

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    danglingwrangler

    First, I am independently employed in the IT industry as a consultant from 14 years experience all the way to CIO, before striking out on my own, (due to layoff like most others). I would request repliers clarify your vested interest in Microsoft or others, so everyone knows where everyone is coming in this discussion, without naming company names.
    Lets take the blinders off and let the frank discussion ensue about Microsoft "Vista" - it "requires" a brand new machine almost as the cheap dells and all the other cheap (under $700.00) boxes store bought just won't take a Vista upgrade! It take a minimum 1GB of memory just to run Vista adequately, another Direct9x Video card (under $150.00) shares 256 MB more of memory. You spend more than $200.00 on Direct 9x video card and the memory usually comes on-board (so there is no addt'l share requirement), in most cases.

    Now this is before your machine is running "ANYTHING" else. Adobe Photoshop or Intuit Quickbooks Premier would boost the computer requirements at least another 256 - 500 MB of memory.

    So lets review so far the expense of upgrading the insecure Vista OS just to see brilliant image rendering when you open your text based email (for security reasons) - Basic Vista Home Edition with "Aero Glass image rendering $299.00, Direct 9x video card required to run Vista 9x with Aero Glass $200.00, most likely memory upgrade of at least 1 GB (if older Bios is capable) $99.00. So you will spend most likely $500- $600.00 for Vista upgrade.
    Is there any wonder there is an underground software industry? The middle class is being squeezed right out of this consumer category, just like the numerous other ones where the middle-class just has to go home empty handed.

    Do you think Microsoft is in cahoots with any any kind of conspiracy with all the Computer Manufacturers it partners with to force people to buy new computers vs spend in the neighborhood of $500- $600.00 to upgrade an old computer to run the the basic stripped down version of Vista????????

    Are we seeing the beginning of a class structure - the middle class that no longer will be able to afford to have a new computer or at least wisely justify that kind of expense just to enrich the billionaires Bill and Michael and keep their bank accounts flush????

    It is my opinion that the answer is YES to the above questions and the IT techs that stand up to this sort of malarkey get out-sourced off-shore.

    Maybe it is time to unionize. They can not take all the jobs off-shore... and to think that this situation will change or that Bill and Michael are NOT sitting around thinking how they can accelerate this scenario to prevent this very thing in the IT community - unionization I frankly am surprised if hasn't started already - unionization in IT. It really is heading toward critical mass fellas....and gals. Anyone got another scenario ??????????

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    Why Me Worry?

    Unions won't do much for the IT industry, but annoying the crap out of congress to put a plug on this out of hand H1-B fiasco will. Bill Gates just made a bullshiit speach to congress regarding a so called "shortage" of skilled IT workers here in the USA and asked to expand the H1-B program. Perhaps if this greedy pig paid decent wages us Americans can live on instead of outsourcing to 3rd world crapholes where they pay pennies on the dollar to people who can't even speak proper English, there wouldn't be a so called "shortage".

    Screw Bill Gates! He calls himself a "philanphropist", yet he is quick to sellout the USA to some 3rd world craphole. Perhaps he forgot thjat is was the USA and people like us that made him a billionaire and not India or China.

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    Deadly Ernest

    and this will cost me clients as I've already told them I won't work on a Vista machine. Some are smart enough to wonder why and looking at other options, others just ignore me thinking they can talk me into it later.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    In about 2 years time but only on the Original Version and not the SP included version which will take another 2 years to fully test.

    Then when that is ready for you to start working on it there will be a New Windows about to be released again. Some how I think that M$ actions on this one will be the start of people looking for some form of substitute as they are by now sick & tired of the M$ Drug Dependency and will start looking for something that doesn't treat them all like criminals and actually works. :^0

    Col

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    Deadly Ernest

    Some on-line stores here in Australia still have stocks of other Windows available, while stocks last. They include retail, OEM, full packs and upgrade packs, also Academic upgrades. The versions include

    Win XP Pro
    Win XP Pro 64 bit edition
    Win Server 2003
    Win ME
    Win 98 SE

    The few I've contacted say it's only while they still have stocks as they can't get any more from MS, MS are only selling Vista now.

    edit to add

    They also have some copies of Office 2003 and Office XP available on the same conditions. MS now sell only Office Vista to them.

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    w2ktechman

    I guess we have been looking at different areas of the site...

    Anyway, yes, they can still be found. Also, last year I went online (ebay) just to check, and found several copies of Win 95 as well. they are available but, not easily available or available from the most trusted places.

    looking back, I should have picked up a dozen copies of XP a few months ago.....

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    Deadly Ernest

    other issues. I was out for a while with health issues, and slow in returning from that, when I had some major hardware issues. Fixed that and took time to try out several other Linux distributions before rebuilding with SimplyMEPIS and reloading everything.

    That delayed my full recover a bit, then copped some compulsory govt training. Now I have to catch up on several week housekeeping and cleaning.

    If you love the XP look and can't get it, PC Linux is worth looking at.

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    gadgetgirl

    Are you ok now?

    All back healthy?

    GG

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    Deadly Ernest

    My health is improving again, but I'll never be 100% again. The condition I'm in at the moment is very touchy, at this point in time it's more a case on long term exhaustion than anything else. The cancer is in a wait and see what happens basis as they couldn't cut it all out, too close to the spinal column and brain. The memory problem I had following the operation is getting better now. I stopped forgetting what i went to the fridge for, now I can remember what I'm after for the whole trip of several metres. There are still times when I forget what I went into town for, that's a 60 km trip, so I've got more time to forget. But that's life, and the alternative is something I'm not sure I'm ready for yet.

    I'm glad to see that someone other than my bank manager is concerned about my health, especially as he's more concerned about me reducing my overdraft.

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    david_springer_56

    you might consider yourself in a position to try something IN ADDITION to whatever you're already doing--somethine which might prove helpful and can 'do no harm'. google: Royal Raymond Rife. here are a few of the sites i found 'interesting', in no particular order:
    www.rife.org
    www.rife.org/rifecdorder.html
    www.royalrife.com www.rifelabs.com
    www.truerife.com www.rife.de
    www,geocities.com/fifetube
    www.home.earthlink.net/~vibranthealth/
    www.home.earthlink.net/~vibranthealth/Misc/RifeResearch.htm
    www.home.earthlink.net/~vibranthealth/Misc/RelatedSites.htm
    www.energywellness.co.nz/index.htm
    www.noriftrife.com

    check the spelling if any of these don't connect. mine's terrible. there are dozens if not MANY more out there. researcher/buyer BEWARE. self education is a MUST.
    Frank Zappa once said something to the effect of: 'go to the library and educate yourself if you have the guts!' that was before the internet got huge.
    may this find you doing well. dave

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    TheChas

    I wonder what is going to happen in a few years when MS drops support for XP.

    Will they shut down the license servers on the same day?

    What is going to happen 5 or 10 years down the road if you need to install XP clean on a system and the MS license server is no longer there to allow you to activate your legal copy?

    Just food for thought.

    Chas

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    TechExec2

    That is why I'm getting out now. I'm never going to upgrade to Vista, will continue to use XP, will eventually will stop using XP and use Linux and Macintosh instead.

    This nonsense from Microsoft is unacceptable to me.

    If I do have Windows around, it will be for limited purposes only. It will be the "alien" system in the shop and will be watched like a hawk! :^0

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    w2ktechman

    by 10 years from now, XP will probably have little HW support, and SW support should be scant at best.
    But, by this time, most people would have upgraded their systems to newer systems anyway. Just before the deadline for XP support, I plan on rebuilding my system anyway if I am still using it. But I dont think that I still have any 10 yr. old systems anymore.

    Additionally, with the way Linux has made strides over the past few years (in '99 it was hard to use), it should be a good viable solution for many home users within the next 10 years.

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    Why Me Worry?

    I really don't know what else to say, even though I don't condone piracy or cracking mechanisms in software to thwart piracy, but what if you indeed have a legit copy and MS decided to shut down their XP activation servers?

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    bart99gt

    Why would you need to install XP in 5 or 10 years from now in the first place? In 10 years, XP will be 15(!) years old. It would be like someone trying to install Windows 95/98 (or DOS 6!)on a PC today. Anything that would require XP in that far in the future would probably be on its last legs anyway or it would be nearly impossible to find vital software like anti-virus programs or security patches that are updated on a regular basis.

    I've got copies of Windows 98 and 2000 that haven't seen use in over 5 years now.

    My WAG is that MS would probably just set something up that would allow *any* copy of XP to be activated, regardless of source, after official support comes to an end. As I stated in another reply, software and hardware companies are in the business of selling NEW products, not supporting legacy ones forever. Basically by doing this, they'd wash their hands of anyone who would get upset because they can't use their 7 year old PC anymore. Sheesh...this is about as bad as people who used to ask me if their old Tandy 1000s were still useful in the late 90s!!

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    daveo2000

    While it is true that most folks probably won't want to install a new version of XP in 5 or 10 years, there will, without a doubt, be a few.

    I am sure that you will be able to find quite a few folks here at TR that know somebody running DOS 3.1 applications on a PC either at home or at work.

    Why should anyone be forced to upgrade their software system if it does exactly what it is supposed to be doing?

    Most of the world moves along a lot slower than software development. A 10 year old printing press is not an antique, it is a printing press. It does work. If I was unfortunate enough to install one that relies on an XP system to operate it and then, 5 years from now have to replace several components of that system, why shouldn't I be able to? With XP (and probably Vista) if you change too many parts in that PC it will force you to recertify the license. What happens to your otherwise perfectly functioning system when you can't recertify the OS?

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    Why Me Worry?

    And although this is for a specialized PC that controls a CNC router at his furniture manufacturing factory, it still requires an OS that is considered long obsolete by today's standards. It's no fault of mine or my dad's that the CNC machining software, made a company known as Centroid, decided to make it a DOS version and not a Windows version, even though Windows was available at the time. Also, the CNC router was manufactured during the time that 486 machines with 200MB drives and 640K RAM were abound with DOS as the primary OS on them, explaining why the PLC board that controls the CNC machine is an old 16 bit ISA card and not PCI. I recently had to rebuild the PC because the motherboard burned out and I sure am glad I still had a copy of DOS 6.2 floating around in my collection of old disks and was able to buy a new 486SX mainboard for a few bucks from an online PC parts retailer.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    Place I was working at had a tensile frame pulls a piece of steel wire in half, and measures the force required.

    The software was third party, no source
    the PC and XT 286 with DOS . No hard drive and two 5.25 floppies. All the slots were used up so they had a combination video and printer card. The printer side of the card stopped working and the the software was hard coded to make low level calls to it's graphic hardware and it's obsolete.
    Buggered, new pc, new software package, new interfacing, ?25k for a video card.

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    daveo2000

    I have never heard about MS doing anything to help people on older versions of the OS.

    A friend who works for a fairly large multi-national went overseas to get one of the satellite offices "in line" and found that many of the systems that had been bought had pirate versions of Win 98 on them. This isn't because the company was doing things under the table, it was because the vendor supplied lots (a couple hundred) PCs and neglected to say that the OS was unlicensed.

    My friend contacted MS to set things straight asking to pay for the licenses (NOT asking for software, just paper) to make things legal. MS happily said "Well, we don't sell 98 anymore so we will charge you for XP licenses for your Win98 machines."

    Do you really think that MS will proactively provide XP licenses without recertification and, more importantly, without charge after they no longer support the OS?

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    TheChas

    I work with a lot of systems that run legacy code. We are still running hardware that predates the IBM PC and DOS!

    We cannot get funding to convert the elaborate custom applications over to run on new operating systems.

    Right now, new applications are being written on XP systems. Some of these will need to be in service at least 20 years from now. Should we need to rebuild a hard drive, or make a duplicate system for increased capacity, we will need to be able to install XP!

    I don't make the decisions as to what OS to use, I just get to implement and support it.

    Chas

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    stevenmoulden

    Just pull a new OEM code (never activated of course) from the side of the case since everyone knows that the volume license is the one that's the original legal one!

    Or just become an auto mechanic...they don't mind as much when they have to work on the cars...even on newer ones; they get paid whether you drive a 1985 Isuzu or a 2007 Mustang....

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    deICERAY

    Thaks for all your comments; a further issue for me is that I frequently help people purchase home systems, or upgrade one, and now all I can tell them is they're Vista bound and I won't be going along with them. I'm not buying the upgrade, and I have no desire to 'adapt' to it. XP is as far as I'm going. Linux will be my next leap. It just irritates me no end how cavalier MS is towards everyone, while making millions a day off of us.
    Arrg.

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    w2ktechman

    I was recently in an online course for Vista training. The general consensus after the course was complete (actually, before the last lesson) was that Vista was not going to be an option and almost half of the students had downloaded and installed a Linux distro to try out.
    That is an 'awesome' percentage, especially for people going into trying to learn more about Vista before upgrading.

    Goes to show, MS tightened the screws a bit too much this time round.

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    Deadly Ernest

    No to Vista, if the locals want a cheap Dell etc or anything with Vista, then they can get prepared to ship it back to where they bought it for any technical work. If they build a machine, they'll put on any software you have (transfer over XP etc when upgrading) or Linux if they don't have any software. They won't even load a driver onto a Vista machine for fear the people will claim they busted it.